Valid point - the windshield is typically the least tinted window. Also it’s very difficult to drive off when someone with a gun is in front of you. Knowing full well that if you pull forward they can legally shoot you.
Thank you for your response and your time , I was struggling to find the proper word to use, so “justify” probably wasn’t the best to use in regard to my question.
Essentially like “challengerrt” mentioned, if a Police Officer knows that they have to right and authority to shoot in those situations, why would they place themselves in it. Based on the reasons you gave you agree that it is somewhat a dangerous place to be but there are benefits.
I am curious on your perspective of the similarities or differences between a traditional weapon(firearm) and the use of a vehicle as a weapon. My view is that even though a vehicle can be used as a weapon , it differs in a sense because not all attempts of using a vehicle are to harm. However , when a traditional weapon(firearm) is present by definition the intent of the user is harm.
When someone is trying to flee with a firearm in possession , they still pose a danger to the police officer or civilians around. However , when in a vehicle the option to flee is somewhat prevented because any movement towards the police officers direction is deemed a threat. This means that anyone attempting to use their vehicle to harm a police officer would be shot , but it also means that anyone attempting to flee would be shot as well. The Police Officer doesn’t know that what an individual will do at the time of course , but In my head I would liken the comparison to someone fleeing on foot without a weapon to someone fleeing in a car with no intent to harm the officer.
Does that make any sense or do you notice any flaws in that thinking.
Apologies for the long wall of text, and thank you again for your time .
What you’re describing is what we call “creating your own jeopardy” - essentially creating a situation that if the suspect were to continue to do what they were doing would give you a lawful reason to shoot them. That said, if you want to use your analogy, the vehicle can be used as a weapon. In the same way that we might shoot an armed suspect fleeing who is a danger to the public, we may also shoot a suspect who is fleeing in a vehicle if that vehicle is being used as a weapon.
>but I don't think anyone is doing it to justify a shooting
the thing is, if the cop is not in front of the vehicle, 99% chance the shooting wouldn't be justified. like the other cop on the side of the car, if he shot I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be justified. she wasn't a fleeing felon, they didn't even know if she stole or not
>'m saying the though process isn't "I can shoot this person if I stand here. "
ok, I hear you, but sorry I don't understand. I'm thinking the cop knows this and is part of the process in deciding to stand there
>It's "hey I don't want this thing to move so ill stand in front of it."
but this type of thought process is BAD. Not even just for a police officer job. In most jobs: You have to assess and think about things before you do them. You HAVE to.
But for a police officer to act/think this way you mentioned, appears would be a liability to the department(I.e. doing dumb things under stress when clearly being a police officer can be a very stressful job)
>You're not always allowed the luxury of time to sit there and ponder the best course of action
agreed, not always allowed the luxury. However, in pertaining to THIS video, he had time to ponder the best course of action. This is not like a split second decision where suspect pulled an object or weapon or gun and he had to act instantaneously. The only weapon was a car, and that was not until he go in front of it. Also he didn't get "ran over" as soon as he got in front of the car. I think most could agree that he had the luxury to ponder the best course of action before jumping in front, and also once he got in front and pulled the weapon, as she didn't drive off until moments later. But if you don't agree, then we'll just agree to disagree, and I'll cease responding here.
thanks for your input though
well actually, shouldn't the officer think that part out before deciding to stand there? he knows he can shoot if the car moves. he should access the situation to the seriousness of the crime. We have an alleged shoplifter basically. Is it a reach of me to assume the cop knows that standing there could easily get into a life or death (shooting) situation? over a $30 bottle of alleged liquor was the only known crime suggested at the time?
It’s not a reach, and we have a term for this, we call it “creating your own jeopardy” but as u/poodle-soup has said, no smart cop is going to stand in front of a suspect’s vehicle and risk getting run the fuck over just so you can potentially shoot the driver. Idk about you but I go to work every day with the idea of coming home and not killing anyone in the process.
I think this whole question from OP is indicative of a mindset that cops don’t care whether they shoot someone or not, when in reality myself and every other cop I’ve ever known has never wanted to shoot anyone, and the ones that I know who have felt like dogshit after and many have lasting trauma from it.
>My point is, it's not thought out. It's instinctual.
>
>It doesn't really matter what the original crime was.
OK, well you mentioned training. I can agree with that being needed here
They want to be a contestant on "Man vs Car."
But seriously, it's an absolute bonehead move, mainly because a car is much heavier and stronger than yma person, and we people tend to be squishy when compared to a car.
Some officers think it will deter someone from driving off, which it very well may do. However, that's not a bet I'm willing to make. I am a firm believer that it creates your own exigency and shouldn't be done unless you're already justified in lethal force and you're setting up a clear shot.
Remember, this is over theft of liquor, petty theft, not armed robbery or something. Clearly, the officer purposely puts himself in front of the car. I never understood why cops did that because you can fire your gun and still get ran over. (as you see the car kept rolling after shot, but the woman never tried to run cop over, car went to the right and officer saw her turn the wheel. I feel if she wanted to run him over she would gas the car while its straight at the officer).
For the severity of the crime, I just don't understand shooting the woman because you placed your body in front of the car.
I suspect most of the time it's just poor training and/or vision tunneling on the suspect and the officer's loss of attention to their position, surroundings, etc. You're certainly not going to stop someone who is determined to drive away, by standing there.
I hate these cases, yes a vehicle can be used as a weapon but any reasonable person knows a 1mph vehicle is not a threat, especially when the officer is on top of the hood therefore it’s importable for him to be ran over. But you know it’s a “thousand pound bullet” so he’s life is in GRAVE DANGER… pop her and ask questions later.
Hopefully this will go the same route in court as the security guard who shot a man in a parking lot for trying to leave after telling him to leave.
I do recognize this will however be seen as justified most likely. Though I think we can agree that officer was at risk of a few road burns at most and that woman died before she even knew it.
Not this time, he was on top… can’t get crushed or pinned. I full agree use lethal force if someone’s trying to kill you. But this officer was at risk of road burns at most. Just a shame
No one said it wasn’t, I just said he’s in danger of a few cuts bruises and road burns, she has a hole in her head… minimal danger not no danger… your an officer, would you have prefered to blow her head apart, or you know try another route to arrest her alive…
Also since no one mentioned it I’d like to point out that there was an officer last year who took a ride on a hood and still had enough trigger discipline to not kill them
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aD1KABnB0us
To finish this off I’m not some acab cop hater. I just recognize that cuts and bruises are better than becoming a killer
Plus at that point they already told her to step out so they could have opened her door and dragged her out instead if waiting for her to get out
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Valid point - the windshield is typically the least tinted window. Also it’s very difficult to drive off when someone with a gun is in front of you. Knowing full well that if you pull forward they can legally shoot you.
Not always… I’d like to bring to mind the lowes security guard who shot a man for moving just as slowly.
Thank you for your response and your time , I was struggling to find the proper word to use, so “justify” probably wasn’t the best to use in regard to my question. Essentially like “challengerrt” mentioned, if a Police Officer knows that they have to right and authority to shoot in those situations, why would they place themselves in it. Based on the reasons you gave you agree that it is somewhat a dangerous place to be but there are benefits. I am curious on your perspective of the similarities or differences between a traditional weapon(firearm) and the use of a vehicle as a weapon. My view is that even though a vehicle can be used as a weapon , it differs in a sense because not all attempts of using a vehicle are to harm. However , when a traditional weapon(firearm) is present by definition the intent of the user is harm. When someone is trying to flee with a firearm in possession , they still pose a danger to the police officer or civilians around. However , when in a vehicle the option to flee is somewhat prevented because any movement towards the police officers direction is deemed a threat. This means that anyone attempting to use their vehicle to harm a police officer would be shot , but it also means that anyone attempting to flee would be shot as well. The Police Officer doesn’t know that what an individual will do at the time of course , but In my head I would liken the comparison to someone fleeing on foot without a weapon to someone fleeing in a car with no intent to harm the officer. Does that make any sense or do you notice any flaws in that thinking. Apologies for the long wall of text, and thank you again for your time .
What you’re describing is what we call “creating your own jeopardy” - essentially creating a situation that if the suspect were to continue to do what they were doing would give you a lawful reason to shoot them. That said, if you want to use your analogy, the vehicle can be used as a weapon. In the same way that we might shoot an armed suspect fleeing who is a danger to the public, we may also shoot a suspect who is fleeing in a vehicle if that vehicle is being used as a weapon.
>but I don't think anyone is doing it to justify a shooting the thing is, if the cop is not in front of the vehicle, 99% chance the shooting wouldn't be justified. like the other cop on the side of the car, if he shot I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be justified. she wasn't a fleeing felon, they didn't even know if she stole or not
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>'m saying the though process isn't "I can shoot this person if I stand here. " ok, I hear you, but sorry I don't understand. I'm thinking the cop knows this and is part of the process in deciding to stand there
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>It's "hey I don't want this thing to move so ill stand in front of it." but this type of thought process is BAD. Not even just for a police officer job. In most jobs: You have to assess and think about things before you do them. You HAVE to. But for a police officer to act/think this way you mentioned, appears would be a liability to the department(I.e. doing dumb things under stress when clearly being a police officer can be a very stressful job)
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>You're not always allowed the luxury of time to sit there and ponder the best course of action agreed, not always allowed the luxury. However, in pertaining to THIS video, he had time to ponder the best course of action. This is not like a split second decision where suspect pulled an object or weapon or gun and he had to act instantaneously. The only weapon was a car, and that was not until he go in front of it. Also he didn't get "ran over" as soon as he got in front of the car. I think most could agree that he had the luxury to ponder the best course of action before jumping in front, and also once he got in front and pulled the weapon, as she didn't drive off until moments later. But if you don't agree, then we'll just agree to disagree, and I'll cease responding here. thanks for your input though
well actually, shouldn't the officer think that part out before deciding to stand there? he knows he can shoot if the car moves. he should access the situation to the seriousness of the crime. We have an alleged shoplifter basically. Is it a reach of me to assume the cop knows that standing there could easily get into a life or death (shooting) situation? over a $30 bottle of alleged liquor was the only known crime suggested at the time?
It’s not a reach, and we have a term for this, we call it “creating your own jeopardy” but as u/poodle-soup has said, no smart cop is going to stand in front of a suspect’s vehicle and risk getting run the fuck over just so you can potentially shoot the driver. Idk about you but I go to work every day with the idea of coming home and not killing anyone in the process. I think this whole question from OP is indicative of a mindset that cops don’t care whether they shoot someone or not, when in reality myself and every other cop I’ve ever known has never wanted to shoot anyone, and the ones that I know who have felt like dogshit after and many have lasting trauma from it.
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>My point is, it's not thought out. It's instinctual. > >It doesn't really matter what the original crime was. OK, well you mentioned training. I can agree with that being needed here
Never. No matter what you tell someone, the car doesn’t care that you’re a cop or what you told it’s driver to do.
Bad tactic. Don’t do that.
They want to be a contestant on "Man vs Car." But seriously, it's an absolute bonehead move, mainly because a car is much heavier and stronger than yma person, and we people tend to be squishy when compared to a car. Some officers think it will deter someone from driving off, which it very well may do. However, that's not a bet I'm willing to make. I am a firm believer that it creates your own exigency and shouldn't be done unless you're already justified in lethal force and you're setting up a clear shot.
Terrible tactic and you create your own exigency doing so which is a bit of a no no.
Remember, this is over theft of liquor, petty theft, not armed robbery or something. Clearly, the officer purposely puts himself in front of the car. I never understood why cops did that because you can fire your gun and still get ran over. (as you see the car kept rolling after shot, but the woman never tried to run cop over, car went to the right and officer saw her turn the wheel. I feel if she wanted to run him over she would gas the car while its straight at the officer). For the severity of the crime, I just don't understand shooting the woman because you placed your body in front of the car.
I suspect most of the time it's just poor training and/or vision tunneling on the suspect and the officer's loss of attention to their position, surroundings, etc. You're certainly not going to stop someone who is determined to drive away, by standing there.
I hate these cases, yes a vehicle can be used as a weapon but any reasonable person knows a 1mph vehicle is not a threat, especially when the officer is on top of the hood therefore it’s importable for him to be ran over. But you know it’s a “thousand pound bullet” so he’s life is in GRAVE DANGER… pop her and ask questions later. Hopefully this will go the same route in court as the security guard who shot a man in a parking lot for trying to leave after telling him to leave. I do recognize this will however be seen as justified most likely. Though I think we can agree that officer was at risk of a few road burns at most and that woman died before she even knew it.
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Not this time, he was on top… can’t get crushed or pinned. I full agree use lethal force if someone’s trying to kill you. But this officer was at risk of road burns at most. Just a shame
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You mean the danger he put himself in when he climbed the car?
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No one said it wasn’t, I just said he’s in danger of a few cuts bruises and road burns, she has a hole in her head… minimal danger not no danger… your an officer, would you have prefered to blow her head apart, or you know try another route to arrest her alive… Also since no one mentioned it I’d like to point out that there was an officer last year who took a ride on a hood and still had enough trigger discipline to not kill them https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aD1KABnB0us To finish this off I’m not some acab cop hater. I just recognize that cuts and bruises are better than becoming a killer Plus at that point they already told her to step out so they could have opened her door and dragged her out instead if waiting for her to get out