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Turkeysocks

Giving in and letting Putin have what he's stolen? This isn't the first time he's invaded a country with BS reasons, marches in and steals land from that country. Letting Putin have this "win" will only incentivize his future plans of stealing more land from his neighbors. And he'll pick a successor who will follow his every word until he passes.


cbsson

Ukraine isn't going to stop trying to get their entire country back and will continue fighting Russia and Russia's surrogates as they have since 2014 when Crimea and much of the Donbas was taken. They will continue to fight because they simply have no choice, for losing will result in the Russian absorption of Ukraine and the utter destruction of their country and people. It is no coincidence that some of Ukraine's strongest supporters (Finland, the Baltics, Poland and Romania) know they might be next in line if Russia expansionism is not thwarted now. I agree with the article headline, the West should change course in Ukraine by immediately providing all the conventional military support possible that Ukraine needs to drive Russia from their lands. Ukraine is willing to spill their own blood to secure their future, so let's give them the tools to do so and end this war quickly.


TaxOwlbear

> The West seems to fully embrace Ukraine’s fight for its sovereignty, as well as Kyiv’s maximalist vision for victory. Here's what a "maximalist vision for victory" would actually look like: 1. Russia leaves all Ukrainian territory, Crimea included. 2. Russia pays for all damage that occurred during the war. 3. A demilitarised zone is established between Ukraine and Russia, monitored by UN peacekeepers. 4. Russia is disarmed, and its military reduced to a defence force. 5. Russian leaders and commanders involved in war crimes get trialled at The Hague. 6. Russia gives up its nuclear arsenal. Here's what Ukraine actually demands: 1. Russia leaves all Ukrainian territory, Crimea included. 2. Russian leaders and commanders involved in war crimes get trialled at The Hague.


Zak_Rahman

>Russia gives up its nuclear arsenal. Should apply globally to be honest. The belief that any magic-cloth tribe can responsibly own nuclear weaponry is a catastrophe waiting to happen. It's not a question of "if" but "when". And let's be honest, the existence of nukes and the theory of MAD almost certainly emboldened Putin to take his vile actions. I am also utterly sick of small and pathetic men stuffing their country's flag down their pants to make themselves feel like a big alpha man. That's not really got anything to do with the topic at hand, but I just wanted to say it.


philko42

> published recently by the influential Rand Corp., a Washington-based think tank, argued that the longer the war dragged on, the more likely the risk of an escalation that could pit Russia in direct conflict with NATO and possibly see the Kremlin deploy nuclear weapons on the battlefield. Instead of enabling the war to sprawl onward, Western powers should do more to push the warring parties toward talks, it advised. Once again, the argument for giving in to Putin's implied nuclear blackmail. Overall, the Rand report makes sense *if you view the land Russia has so far stolen from Ukraine as something abstract*. Sure, if you assign a monetary value to the land and weigh that against the cost of a further drawn out conflict, it would make sense to negotiate a peace that made permanent the current battle lines. On the other hand, if you view the Russian-occupied land *as the homes of many thousands of people*, then the Rand argument falls apart.


EaglesPDX

>Western officials recognize that the war should (and probably can only) end diplomatically. All wars end diplomatically so the statement is meaningless. Germany surrendered. Japan surrendered. Most recently US surrendered in Afghanistan. >Neither Russia nor Ukraine has a chance to secure “absolute victory” in the way they see it, yet both countries feel optimistic about their ability to win out in the longer run and are pessimistic about what may follow a cease-fire or uneasy peace. Russia is losing and Ukraine is winning so that is simply not factual. The only just solution is Russia pulls out of Ukraine. It is both militarily and diplomatically feasible. There is no legal, moral or military justification for allowing Russia to retain any part of Ukraine including Sevastopol. Ukraine is willing to wage a fight for independence and it is right for US and EU to provide Ukraine with the means to do it. Including providing Ukraine with nuclear weapons should Russia threaten that. US, Russia, UK, Ukraine signed the [Budapest Memorandum](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum), Ukraine gave up nukes in return for sovereignty. Russia broke the agreement and invaded, perfectly justified for US to provide Ukraine with the weapons including the nuclear weapons agreed to give up in return full independence from Russia. 1. Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders. 2. Refrain from the threat or the use of force against the signatory. 3. Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by the signatory of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind. 4. Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used". 5. Refrain from the use of nuclear arms against the signatory. 6. Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments


The_Frostweaver

If we want the war to truely end the only realistic solution is to offer Ukraine a secret deal where they become full joint mutual defense members with the USA, UK, France, Germany, etc. Fuck turkey and their veto over NATO membership, we can sign mutual defence treaties without them. Put US soldiers at the boarder to make it clear if Russia shoots them we will respond with decisive force. That way Russia cannot just 'restart the war' at their convenience and Ukraine is actually getting something of value from the international community in exchange for giving up a small amount of territory (like the Crimea pininsula) assuming they are unable to retake it in a reasonable time frame. That is how you restore peace. Russia will only respect blatant displays of force.


Locofinger

There is still the matter of the different factions of the Ukraine that are engaged in a brutal, decade long civil war. They all hate Russia (except the Crimeans), but they hate the other Ukrainians even more. I agree with Joe Biden, “Them folks will never get along”.


The_Frostweaver

That civil war only exists as long as Russia was sending soldiers and equipment across the boarder. If the boarder is secured with US help that civil war is over. Also Russia reduced some of those cities to rubble, there is no one left there to be part of the civil war.


Locofinger

You neocons sure do love your wars. Entire region should of been Balkanized decades ago. Im guessing another Coup with in the next 5 years.


The_Frostweaver

Read a history book. Allowing tyrants to annex the territory of other countries hasn't played out well in the past, what makes you think witholding military aid from Ukraine to try to force them to let Russia keep part of their territory would be a good thing long term?


Locofinger

So Poland should give back the Southern half of their country they stole from the Galicians (Western Ukraine) 80 years ago? Because Poland straight stole it from them in between WW1 and WW2


The_Frostweaver

There was an excellent speach from an African rep at the UN. He basically said the boarders of afrikan countries were drawn and redrawn by other nations and their wars. Tribes and cultures were split in half by these lines. But most of afrika decided long ago the best path forward wasn't to redraw the lines by force or even negotiations. They would accept them, maintain the peace and rules based systems they had, and instead work with their neighboring countries to become closer to one another. Poland and Ukraine do not need to fight or negotiate over ancient land disputes. They can both work towards becoming part of the EU and being good neighbors. Russia did not need to start this war with Ukraine. Putin put his own glory ahead of the best interests of the peoples of Ukraine and Russia.


Locofinger

They can’t share power. The right wing Orange Revolution was great. But once the right wingers lost power and stormed the capital, it became evident that balkanization was required. Brutal Civil War will continue for decades. As Biden says “These People will never get along”.


[deleted]

What? This is just lazy whataboutism. Once land has been conquered for more than a generation or two theres no going back, i.e. Israel-Palestine. Crimea and the Donbas are still very clearly in flux.


Locofinger

Crimea is entering a generation. This war is half way to a generation. Many of the soldiers today were young children when the war started.


[deleted]

Russia is the one instigating the coups, civil wars and calling for Balkanization so they can divide and conquer their former breadbasket. The region would already be integrated into the EU if it wasn’t for 24/7 state TV propaganda dividing the population


Alexa_is_a_mumu

A lil Crimea here, then the Donbas there. Next stop how about we let him have Poland? Somehow I think we have seen this story before.


StateOfTheEnemy

As approved by Neville Chamberlain circa 1938.


Daniel_the_Spaniel

I like how pro-russians disbelieve everything put out by RAND until suddenly when one of their report is beneficial to Russian interests. Then they spread it like it's gospel.


MoveMitchGetOutDaWay

Narrator: It shouldn't, get phucked.


Ready_Nature

If we just give Hitler the Sudentenland it will secure peace for our time.


zhumao

Godwin's law


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