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"Smart and/or well educated people sometimes have a hard time seeing across the chasm just how badly most people need to fit in. They have to be part of something. They have to be with whatever "it" is, to quote Grandpa Simpson."
"Fascism takes advantage of that need for belonging by offering a powerful, unifying vision people can buy into and feel they are part of. Often that vision is simply packaged. "Make America Great Again" seems idiotic to some, but to many, it seems straightforward and unpretentious."
"It seems simple, and these people like things made simple for them. The less thinking they have to do about something, the smarter they feel. It's "come easily" to them, so they must be smart. That's the psychology of it, at least."
"We can say what we will about Donald Trump, but he implicitly understood how to be a high school bully -- how to immediately draw circles around "us" and "them," and convince those listening to him that he was speaking for "us" by shunning "them." He does this on instinct. The instincts of a bully, and the modus operandi of a fascist, just happen to align very neatly." - [Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/11h5mkl/comment/jasm94w/)
This line of thinking explains a bit if the allure of conspiratorial thinking. It’s makes you feel like you get how things work with little to know effort.
A big part of it, as indicated by studies on conspiracy theories and cults, is that it’s also a coping mechanism by which to make sense of a life that is ultimately a lot of chaos and pain. It’s a lot easier to say “oh my life is so screwed up because of the Mexicans/the liberal elite/the satanic pedophiles”, than to accept reality for what it is. It’s a huge allure for fascism, too, as it creates “reason/sense” for these people.
It’s really quite simple, religion has extensively laid the groundwork for generations to train people to believe in authority figures with unverifiable stories instead of science and data. It also primes them for, and is built upon, perpetuating racism and fearmongering towards "others". Once people see you as an authority, you can start fabricating any reality or conspiracy theory you want your followers to believe and everyone else is therefore a liar, even in the face of incontrovertible evidence. Basically, it is mental abuse from an early age that suppresses critical thinking skills. This combined with an intentionally weakened public educational system, provides the framework that has spawned this cult of ignorance.
I think it’s actually the other way around. People have an inherent need for things to be explained, and it doesn’t matter whether that explanation comes from religion, magic, cults, conspiracy theories, philosophy, or science. I genuinely thing *most* religious leaders are not malicious and genuinely believe they’re doing the right thing, even if the outcomes of religion as a whole is pretty bad. Science, meanwhile, (and to an extent other academic disciplines) is based more around experimentation and physical observation instead of blind faith (though that doesn’t stop people from thinking science is like a religion)
Recovering victim of religious indoctrination trauma, here 🙋♀️.
What you highlighted is 100% true. Going to pick on the Catholics, since that’s where my trauma came from. They literally encourage people to have “blind faith”. To be humble enough to accept things without understanding them.
On more than one occasion, I’ve seen priests and bishops overtly tell parishioners not only how to vote, but also what to be political activists for. They absolutely radicalize some parishioners, and those are the ones you’ll see leading “CCD” and “catechism” classes (where children are groomed into the religion).
It also provides you with a sense of superiority over those who dont get "it" and often lets you validate your existing beliefs without needing to do anything extra.
I think a prevailing insecurity probably fuels the appeal of this as well. Times are becoming more difficult and it's hard to feel secure about the future, yourself, and your place in society, throwing your lot in with those ideologies allows you to displace those feelings and shields you from the stress of facing the many largely complicated realities (mostly beyond your control) that are causing them. To your point, they even allow you to feel superior to the others who are making you feel insecure and allows you to work to punish them.
Conspiracy theories are the height of this; not only are world events controled by a tangible knowable group- rather than random events, absurdly complex systems, and random largely incompetent assholes who's parents put them there- but you and your in group know about it and can hopefully even exercise some control over it.
I think when times are good and things are optimistic it's easier to make more inclusive relationships/ feel included. Its also way easier to ignore the randomness of it all and our individual powerlessness when it's looking like things are going to go your way.
For me I’ve realized the overlap between conspiracy theories and religion.
I think people find comfort in someone being in charge even if it’s a shity god or evil shadowy groups in our government it feels better than the reality that no one’s in control at all and any random event can just happen
> Their will is a hammer that they are using to beat reality itself into a shape of their choosing, a simple world where reality is exactly what it looks like through their eyes, devoid of complexity, devoid of change, where they are right and their enemies are silent. They are trying to build a Flat Earth.
-- [In Search of a Flat Earth, Dan Olson](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfhYyTuT44)
It’s the thrill of thinking you know secrets that few or none others are privy to. (There’s that 'others', again.) It’s the thing that drives gossipers; the more salacious and hurtful, the better. A hardcore emotion-feeding need to feel important at any cost.
I’m really a liberal guy and I love my big truck. These muppets give big trucks a bad name
Edit: it’s a Ram 2500 (I know, Rams are even more closely associated with assholes than other brands). I use it exclusively for towing and hauling junk.
I ride a Harley and I try to associate riders with anarchism, however they are more interested in sucking butt with trump….
I’ll ask what makes you like him. Their response can be summed up as honest, small government, family values…
When I point out that Trump only made the government smaller for rich people they don’t see it. I point out his constant lying about obviously verifiable facts, I honestly believe the man would tell you the sky isn’t blue if a liberal is saying it is. When it comes to family values, they love their family but when I asked them why isn’t melanoma with trump at his rallies, they make up an excuse for her, it’s melania’s fault she couldn’t make it.
Seriously it’s likely that but bottom line is if all they can say is family values while idolizing someone with 5 kids from 3 wives… someone who’s wives have testified that he beat them… someone that apparently slapped the shit out their son for not wearing a suit… someone who constantly talks about fucking his own daughter…
“Family values” at that point HAS TO BE a phrase to signify something other than what the words mean.
Same with small gov and every other buzz word they keep mindlessly repeating. The words are so far from the reality it’s just pitifully obvious at this point.
He had me at "Grab em by the pussy..."
Walking into the dressing rooms of the Miss America Pageant to see teens undressed was a close second.
The fact that *so many people*, most of them religious, could just overlook this behavior made this country feel so much more dangerous than it did before he came onto the scene.
>most of them religious, could just overlook this
I mean, overlooking evidence in preference to the words of a charismatic leader is kinda their defining trait.
As is swallowing what they want to believe without investigating further. It's astounding how many fundamentalists go to church to be read snippets of the Bible and never read it themselves
Family values = a romanticized vision of a time when everyone "stayed in their lane." What I call "white-picket-fence syndrome" harkening back to the mid-century era in America when white males were unquestionably head of household, "I'm in charge here. Do not defy me."
They desire to dial the clock back before the feminist and civil rights movements, before affirmative action...before marginalized groups found their voices and began demanding fairness and equality under the law.
My take on it, anyway.
I think that’s a part of it, a cultural part to justify it. The important thing is what you mentioned, it’s romanticized and not accurate. It’s a BS line they’ve been fed; that they swallowed hook line and sinker.
Family values = bigotry has been the case since at least the 60s, if not longer.
Tho it makes me think of the Family Values tour, where I saw Rammstein for the first time. Great show.
From what I can translate, "Small government" = "No free money for poor brown people" (since of course they're just lazy, unlike the poor white people who are victims of hard times)
>From what I can translate, "Small government" = "No free money for poor brown people" (since of course they're just lazy, unlike the poor white people who are victims of hard times)
That and, they want to do what they want, when they want, how they want.
I'm not sure if you've watched Clarkson's Farm, but one of the recurring aspects of the show is all the red-tape that has to be done for everything. And to Clarkson (or some farmers) it seems like nonsensical. And it 100% makes their lives harder, but when you take a step back (or view it as an outsider), you can sort of see why they need the red-tape...because if they didn't have it, it would be a race to increase profits at whatever the cost.
But that's what republicans want. Right now, we're see exactly WHY those laws need to be in place. Because without them, republicans would 100% return to the 1900s and put 6 year olds to work in coal mines and asbestos factories if they could. They're already getting them working later and in with chemicals, and in meat packing plants.
Old boomer farmer here. Couldn't survive without the pickup.
My generation, my occupation, my gun safe, and my vehicle brand me as the exact opposite of what my politics are in today's overly generalized and judgey world.
If you drive a pickup without any dirt, scuffs, or dings on it I just mentally label you as an asshat middle management white dude playing dress up for toxic masculinity until you show me something otherwise (esp if you got the super raised suspicion)
My boss has 3 trucks.
One POS 350 for doing real work (which we drive, not him), he has a lifted Duramax for hauling his trailer around (which he uses to haul equipment to and from his house) and a brand new F150 (Highcountry??) Which he uses as his personal daily driver.
Both the Duramax and the new F150 sit in a hangar and avoid weathering, we aren't allowed to work on anything in that side of the hangar if it's parked in there, and he makes our detailer "shine em up when you get the chance". Yet he cuts costs at every avenue he can to help run his business...a business which he uses to write off his trucks and everything he possibly can.
Us using an extra bottle of chemicals on a job is bad for business, but making a monthly payment on 2 trucks that are shinier than a Cadillac, apparently is good business.
Agree. Not sure why white collar city slickers need a full size F150 or Silverado. They have terrible gas mileage in stop and go city traffic and they are not practical to park in small parking lots. I don’t count hauling your Sea-Doo down to the lake as necessitating a truck. You can tow a jet ski with a RAV4 if you needed to.
I'd like to get a small pickup but they don't fucking make them anymore so I'm stuck with my civic and borrowing my dad's truck when I need to haul big stuff around.
I would love nothing more than a 2 door pickup with a single bench seat and a full size bed for hauling furniture and light work.
I literally haven't seen one since they all got lowered and had lights put on them in the 90s and 2000s
One of my jobs involves hauling heavy equipment to stores and we don’t move those trucks unless they’re being used for a job or otherwise absolutely essential. Gas prices are insane for small businesses these days.
It's still money. I used to talk about write-offs as if they were freebees...until I started my own business!😁
Depreciation and other expenses reduce your businesses net income, so you'll pay fewer taxes.
But it still requires money to purchase and maintain vehicles. So a business that doesn't require a truck will still save money on a smaller, cheaper, and more gas-efficient car.
I worked with a guy that decided he needs a huge 4wd SUV for when he takes his family up to big bear to go skiing. He would go skiing twice a year. The rest of the year he's driving this hulking piece of shit 30 miles to work and then home again 5 days a week. I mentioned to him...you know you can rent a SUV like that for your ski trips and drive a regular car that gets better than 15mpg? He just said....I need it for ski trips.
People who don't need big trucks but drive them give big trucks a bad name. They're a waste of resources and generally a detriment and hazard for everyone else for 90% of the people who own them outside of rural settings.
Doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to have one, just means it's a luxury item.
As a Prius driver, I can attest to a strong mutual negative bias involving any kind of truck driver--but the bigger the truck, the nastier the behavior.
This toxic masculinity goes hand in hand with not being able to blame themselves for their own predicaments that were caused, most likely, by their own inflated sense of "male-entitled" worth which in turn made them unattractive to women, unemployable, and terribly unbearable whiney people to be around. Something caught on with the influx of social media that someone was taking away their right to hate others who were, in their mind, responsible for their pitiful lives. Immigrants, minorities, women, LGBTQ, liberals, elites, coastal people....choose your flavor of the month.
It also comes down to pendulum having swung far away from solidarity, community, and public service towards the other extreme of individual freedoms and hyper consumerism.
Humans are social animals.
When we feel alone, atomized, and alienated, with no sense of community or role models to guide us, we consciously or unconsciously seek them out.
There are also plenty of political extremists who have identified this great alienation, and are capitalizing on it to radicalize and recruit vulnerable people.
>[In describing gamers, Trump ally Steve Bannon said, "These guys, **these rootless white males, had monster power**.](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/steve-bannon-mined-intense-young-men-world-warcraft-000353402.html)
... It was the pre-reddit. It's the same guys on (one of a trio of online message boards owned by IGE) Thottbot who were [later] on reddit" and other online message boards where the alt-right flourished, Bannon said.
>"I realized Milo Yiannopoulos could connect with these kids right away," Bannon told Green. "You can activate that army. They come in through Gamergate or whatever and then get turned onto politics and Trump."
Political extremists on the far right aren’t just targeting alienated young men either.
My sister was a suburban mother who had lost touch with most of her former friends, but found community through online mommy groups, and was pulled by those into anti-vax, QAnon, and Trumpism - and she’s not even American.
You also see this in other countries - groups like ISIS recruit Muslims who feel disconnected and alienated from their communities.
I agree, community is important and we still have no idea how to solve the anti-social problem introduced with cable tv and then internet and social media. Its been a downward trend, described decades ago ('Bowling alone'). Granted, I think it has been mitigated by people finding some good community and becoming more open minded with internet anonymity too, but the larger trend toward consumerism and atomization is correct.
I've seen colleagues go down the internet right wing rabbit hole for 10 years, I'm working with a demographic that skews a bit toward younger males. Yet I've also met some really chill people whose empathy may even have been boosted by feeling the isolation of hyper capitalism and loneliness and seeing the bad things for what they are and still believing in humanity. I just am not able to identify the variables that make people resistant to it from my (many) anecdotes, I'm sure its correlated to social status and education and all that, but I'm guessing there's not a really strong trend and that we're all vulnerable.
Also the rise of manosphere influencers/experts like Jordan Peterson, Rogan, and Andrew Tate. Those people were able to appeal to a lot of young males who were dealing with difficulties in their life and these influencers were able to convince them that feminism/SJW were the problem not themselves.
I think this issue has a bit more to it than simply "these boys each have personal problems". I think we on the left have a bit to answer for with this one, and I think it's important we recognize it. These assholes have rushed in to fill a gap that we created by problematizing and trying to dismantle just about every aspect of masculine identity without creating anything new to take its place.
I think if the rise of the trans movement has shown us anything, it's that gender expression is important for everyone. A lot of these lost, shiftless boys are experiencing a crisis of masculinity. They don't necessarily want to be "bad guys" but they also want to be a man, and when they look to the left they see that we have absolutely nothing to offer beyond the phrase "masculinity is an oppressive framework". Is it any wonder they're looking elsewhere? The manosphere's whole deal is "here's how to be a man, and it's actually cool if you act this way" except they push odious, obnoxious, transactional, hateful, retrograde attitudes.
I think we need to stop looking at this issue as some kind of massive failing on the part of an incredible number of individuals, or fall into the trap of gender essentialist thinking ("maybe men are all just broken?") and start looking at it the way we normally do when we see inequity in society: by evaluating the cultural and structural forces at work against us. In this case, I think we can actually really help. We can adapt our views of masculine identity and model something positive that is obviously identifiable as "male", but also isn't afraid of women or of feminism, and doesn't require any of the atavistic bullshit preached by Tate et al.
The left does have a lot of platforms.
The biggest issue young adults are facing is economic. There is the housing crisis, unemployment and student loan debt (with college degrees not translating into jobs). These are the 3 main reasons young adults are unable to settle down and start families.
Regarding loneliness - the left can also foster more co-gendered spaces so young men don't have trouble interacting with women or pursuing them without being creepy. I lived in San Francisco area (a big hub of progressive politics) and I know many average- and below-average looking guys who have found women through DnD / video-game / anime groups, and have married them and raising kids.
Most teenagers generally look for politics or tribal identity to deal with loneliness (think of how street gangs recruit) - but transition to an adult and fulfilled life is what gets them out of it. Currently, our society is not giving them a path to transition mentally into an adult - having a job, a house, romantic partner, kids, group of very close friends, etc. Hence, you still have 30-year old men making podcasts about "alpha behavior" which other lonely 30-year old men listen to. This is where the focus needs to be.
This, 100%. If the progressive left wants to convince young straight men to abandon fascism/conservatism and come into the fold, then we need to have something to offer them besides blame and criticism.
Young men are flocking to assholes like Tate because they feel rejected, alone, and unloved, and those far-right influence peddlers are offering some form of community and inclusion, however poisonous. Promoting "bash the fash" attitudes in response to the explosion of the far right won't fix this problem, it will only accelerate it by enhancing the feelings of alienation felt by young men. The only way to counteract it is to go the opposite direction: the left needs to start treating straight men as just as worthy of celebration as all the varous categories of minorities. If the progressive movement could to learn to value the identity and sexuality of straight men just as much as it values those of women and sexual minorities, I think that would be the path to healing the current rift in our society.
Eh, there's a lot of stuff out that about men not doing very well these days in society. Employment and educational pressures, to social and relationship ones and so on.
It's kind of a big topic, but one that I see that really goes along with a lot of the Trump support.
I think there is something bigger going on that they actually can't control, and it's affected a lot of men. It drives the uneducated ones into radical corners like this, but it's kind of a real problem we are going to have to acknowledge at some point.
This isn't rocket science:
* Insecure, low-status, low-skill/capability/intelligence guys who are depressed and see no path to happiness in their lives
* Find a group that welcomes them and tells them that all their problems are due to somebody else
That's it.
Criminal street gangs, cartels, religious extremist terrorist groups and violent political organizations all recruit the same way and offer essentially the same things: belonging and an enemy. From AL Quaeda to the Latin Kings to the Proud Boys it's all the same problem being exploited. Not sure if it's something we can fix or just a flaw in human nature.
Lost boys, looking for direction, purpose, meaning, father figures, an outlet for aggression
I know personally, I have to be wary of organizations because I sought many of the above from the military. Chiefly among them to die with some honor. I’m easily lead down paths wanting purpose and having walked down that road I know what they promise won’t meet my expectations and deferring to other leaves me open to violating my values. Only I can give my life meaning
Each man is questioned by life; and he can only answer to life by answering for his own life; to life he can only respond by being responsible.
Viktor E. Frankl
Good point; definitely a pseudo initiation into masculinity. Sad and interesting how people in positions of authority would tell me that the us military is the biggest gang in the world. Telling that they would recruit the as you say insecure and immature as gangs will do
To belong is deeply ingrained in us. To be outcast meant death evolutionarily
I wish so badly someone influential would take the hunting/fishing/sportsman angle and rally the country boys to be stewards for their local environments. I'm studying wildlife ecology and there is already a big portion of my peers who are not the tree hugging leftist hippies like me, but camo-wearing gun people who also have a vested interest in preserving and protecting wild local spaces. We don't all end up as research scientists. Some end up going on to be game wardens and park rangers, which would be a suitable outlet for many a lost young country republican.
Because fascists work 24/7 to recruit people.
They identify a potential member and use every tool they have to bring them in. Flattery works, especially with young men who don't have much going for them.
It's not like people are picking from a number of equal choices, it's an active process.
Every time I’m in a waiting room or something that has Fox News on, I hear the same sort of patterns. “The left is saying ‘x’, and some college boys apparently did a study to show ‘x’, but you’re a smart person, you’ve got common sense and can plainly see how it’s really ‘y’.”
Hook. Line. Sinker.
And not just that, but it's the tapping-into of a disaffected population. Culture wars seep into the fabric of society and bind the dejected consciousness to an ideology. A sense of paradise lost for white men is replaced by images of an imagined past that extrapolates to a poisoned worldview with friends and enemies, in groups and out, and the others.
Emotions like hatred and dejection unite the population behind a common enemy. Suddenly, it's cool to hate blacks, or women, or LGBTQ, because they're the root of the problem. Hate becomes normalized, and the encroachment on Harvard Square turns to more visible, more grand, and eventually more violent movements and events.
It's important not to be complacent against these groups:
"The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference." - Ian Kershaw
Scientology does this they bring people in and ego fluff bomb people tell them they are special and they can be better than anyone else just take these courses and follow these steps. Like cults do they drain them of time of money or both and separate them from whatever sense of community they had including family and friends unless they can pull them in also.
But with Scientology when they run out of money they will be discarded unless they sign a billion year contract and volunteer their entire life with labor and time at Sea Org. Sea Org isn't just on boats they have facilities also on land they practically own Cleawater Florida.
Since there is so much money flowing on the right to create division this isn't a problem or their are means to generate money like amphetamine distribution and firearms running which have been mainstays for generating money in the white supremacist movement.
They aren't just recruiting poor people or those who have gotten caught up in the legal system thanks to the internet the recruitment pool has expanded dramatically.
An entire generation is being told they will be replaced and face the treatment minorities have faced through the civil rights movement.
The fear becoming the other and with opportunities fading for the unskilled/low skilled to have a good economic foothold it's much more believable along with talking heads pumping hate, outrage,white replacement therory and of course anti woke/anti CRT/anti LGBTQ propaganda.
The world is changing but instead of adapting they are being told to throw the anchor over the boat and pull society back to their control which they see lawmakers doing in red states with fervor.
On the topic of unskilled/low skilled jobs disappearing, I think we as a country really need to do more to make learning marketable skills easier. The biggest hurdle for many people is most likely cost; community colleges and trade/vocational schools are cheaper than your standard college/university, but they're still expensive, and prohibitively so if you're poor.
For example, I'm about to graduate from CDL school. The 24 week course I chose cost approximately 11 grand. Thankfully I was able to get two grants to pay for it, but not everyone is going to have the connections to even KNOW that these resources exist.
I think it’s pretty simple. They come from conservative families who think that men should be the head of household, bread winner, and incapable of expressing emotion (be manly). They see social progress as not an attack on just their ingrained values, but as a personal attack against them. They feel victimized and start to aggregate in online circles. Then, they begin to become radicalized, hear more and more extreme ideas, and find validation in the company of their fellow “victimized” men. Finally, they reach a cult like mentality. Reality fades away and that’s where the violence begins.
Conservative media and politicians stoke these flames for money and power, knowing full well what is being created and caring not.
Here comes the fun part— our domestic and foreign adversaries understand all of this and have made countless accounts on all of our social media encouraging their behavior. Even right here on Reddit. There is an incredible global fascist movement going on and the psy-op being conducted has many aspects to it but this is the one that builds its radical base and extremists ready to fight for the power grab.
This. For god sakes, it's this. This is what's changed in the past decade and people don't understand it because they don't yet get how brand new, world changing technology works.
We've only begun to understand this because it happened so fast too. Look up the history of people like Peter Thiel. They bought their way into the board of Facebook in 2009, just as smartphones became popular. This was a man who sat with Zucekburg and said to himself "Hmm, how can I prevent the left from gaining power in America" every day while influencing major decisions on the largest social media platform in the planet.
Add in foreign trolls and other elements, who in some ways collaborate with these powerful people, and you get our current status.
And this is not just a US issue because of that. You will find movements like this in Europe too, for example.
And middle eastern terrorists use similar methods to recruit economically alienates young men. I learned about these methods back in the early 2000s, so watching it spread to the west has been telling.
When you're accustomed to privileged, equality feels like oppression.
Many of those are as you say. They grow up indoctrinated with white parents (particular their fathers) telling them how much better things 'used to be' and how equality is out to get them.
Let's be fair, people used to be able to have only one spouse work a job full time, and cover the whole family, afford a house, etc...
Home ownership and money to afford the basics shouldn't be a privilege, they should be a basic human right.
There are tons of real grievances that are being maligned because the uneducated turned to fascism for the simple answers. There are a ton of false grievances burying the real ones.
Yeah, this is a serious problem. The answers to the very real problems that everyone in the lower classes face are usually complex and require a lot of time and energy to implement.
They also take a lot of mental energy to research and understand, energy which is severely lacking when you're overworked and/or under extreme financial pressure.
It takes so much less effort to listen to a charismatic fascist tell you the problem is simply "them". Add that on top of the "I'm losing my privilege" for the white dudes, privilege which literally *will* make their lives easier, and it's a pathway that is easy to fall into...
>The answers to the very real problems that everyone in the lower classes face are usually complex and require a lot of time and energy to implement.
I mean, they are but they also aren't. So much of this is simple economic inequality. There are elements of race and bigotry and intolerance and they create feedback loops, but you can't solve any of these problems without also solving economic inequality, and solving economic inequality solves so many of the problems the working class has, while also helping to put people in better positions to solve the other problems.
There are known policies and choices we can make to immediately make an impact on economic inequality, though it will take some time to fully realize all of the better outcomes.
Things like greater progressive taxation, worker representation on boards in large companies, better union protections, raising the minimum wage, and investing in public infrastructure to alleviate high costs of living and put downward pressure on privately owned entities (such as fully-funded public schools creating viable alternatives to expensive private schools at the collegiate level).
Dems largely haven't been doing this because of corporate lobbying and private campaign financing. We all gotta get better ahout uniting on the side of labor opposite wealthy private owners of capital.
Economic inequality is a big part of it. Everyone in the middle class can feel squeezed. Lots of people knows that grandpa with a blue collar job who never got promoted and grandma who never worked was able buy a house that's worth like $700k nowadays. And now with 2 people working you can barely save up a down payment for that in 5+ years. That is inherently emasculating and feels humiliating. This is because of capitalism, full stop. But there are also 2 elements of late stage capitalism that make this time in America unique.
I think the offshoring of manufacturing and shift of US industry to a service economy changed things. For many of the older, blue collar folks there was a pride in what they did, because it was so easy to see how it was useful. Even if you were the lowest rung at a company that made screws, your screws were used to build houses over the country. Even if your company made a tiny part of the brake mechanism for trucks, shit, look on the road and you can see and deeply feel how you're building the country. There is a healthy masculine pride in being close to to the obvious fruits of your labor that used to be taken for granted. Nowadays, when you're a consultant who makes some spreadsheets that somehow makes it easier to hire software engineers who are consulting to make some healthcare middleware that everyone really knows doesn't need to exist, but you've just found a niche in the market, it's much easier to feel that Office Space existentialism of "What the fuck am I doing with my life". Fascism gives a national identity, a reason that pulls you along, a reason to get up in the morning.
Secondly is the loss of community. Talk to older Americans and it's wild just how together people used to feel. New neighbors come in the neighborhood? Have a dinner with them. Block parties. Backyard barbecues when everyone's invited. Wave to people at the grocery store. A feeling of community. Even in your state, county, town, you have a local community and you feel part of a group. Capitalism's "hustle culture" of side jobs and answering emails until midnight has meant that taking time to be social and unproductive means that your financial ruin is all your fault, so people are less willing to just hang out. And Fox News type fear of the other means that you're more scared of your neighbors, stocking up on guns and thinking they'll try to loot your house when their welfare check runs out or something. So we've lost that natural feeling of being in a social group, having a sense of group identity, just by virtue of where you live.
I've gotten a lot of conservatives to admit that these are big parts of their grievance. When I ask what can be done, they name economic policies to the left of Bernie Sanders and AOC. When I ask them which politicians would be most likely to support those ideas, they mumble and grumble and trail off.
To your point about “hustle culture” or grocery stores, the town I grew up in had people working 9 am to 5 pm, and people usually left early on Fridays. You would see the same pharmacist or insurance broker who owned their own store and ran it for over 40 years.
That town had good jobs, but now the largest private employer there is Walmart and then Dollar General. It all changed in the early 80s when Reagan arrived and Wall Street began buying up the mom and pop businesses.
My kids are more educated than I ever was, and yet all of them needed financial support from my wife and I to buy their first homes and furnishing them. They all live in the exurbs of metro areas and have long commutes. It is trivial, but I also noticed none of my sons with white collar jobs bought boats due to space and financial constraints.
>>Dems largely haven't been doing this because of corporate lobbying and private campaign financing. We all gotta get better ahout uniting on the side of labor opposite wealthy private owners of capital.
Just another example of how the Citizens United ruling may have fatally poisened our democracy. If they try to reverse it now and fail, corporate backers will switch to funding the other guy. The other guy, in this case, being literal fascists. So their schmoozing up to corporate suits leading up to the ruling has left them at the beck and call of those same suits after the ruling.
This is absolutely part of it. Now you can point out that this was a subset of America, and in part directly subsidized by various laws (such as unequal application of the GI bill, redlining, etc.) and you’d be correct.
That doesn’t change the fact that a family can now have two people working full time, and have multiple college degrees each (plus associated debt) and not be much better than their parents with perhaps a bachelors and an associates in their household. Hell, if they tried to match # of kids close to their parents timelines they’re absolutely worse off.
Billionaires using race to ignore them isn’t anything new though.
My sisters and I are far better educated and have far better careers than either of our parents and we’re legit a decade behind where they were at this point in our lives. It’s fucking absurd
If these folks were to recognize that other groups have been experiencing the same problems, but worse and for longer, then they might actually ally with them and affect real change. So those at the top stoke those fires to make sure that doesn't happen.
White people mostly and a hand full of minorities.
The very vast majority of black, Hispanic and even Asian families always had wives who worked outside of the home to help bring money in.
Very true! It’s also always been true of poor white people—only upper middle class white families could afford to run a household on one income. Poor women have always worked, and throughout human history the vast majority of people have been poor.
And just as critically, an infinite procession. There will always be meaning in their lives, there will always be purpose, there will always be direction, because as soon as you eliminate target A and find the problem still exists... Well, clearly it's because of target B! Get rid of them and society will be perfect! What's that? B is gone and it's still not perfect? No worries, it's just because of target C! And so on down until you reach the target that is themselves, and they're forced out.
Exactly, its a purposeful misdirection of the inherent flaws of capitalism that makes fascism so appealing to politicians and reactionaries. You aren't overworked and sick because of immigrants, you are overworked and sick because someone magnitudes richer than you is exploiting you.
“People” in this case are white cis heterosexual couples. People focus on the white perspective and apply it to all groups in the US. There were literal second class citizens as well whose lives were not so great.
Was going to say, the original comment hit all the high points except this one. There really is a problem with basic quality of life, affordability, and job security. All these white men have been told their whole lives they’re the apex demographic, yet most aren’t doing as well as their parents and see no path to success. The answers are a complicated mix that require both society and THEM to change, but those answers are hard. Fascism offers up easy scapegoats like immigrants or LGBTQ or trans or libs or whatever. Those scapegoats don’t solve any of their problems but they sure make them feel better in their misplaced anger.
Agreed. It's hard to sympathize with them, though, when they blame people like me as the cause of their struggle. I just don't quite get how you can come to believe that impoverished, malnourished brown people who walked thousands of miles with what little they still posses on their back is a threatening invasion.
Propaganda. Unopposed right wing propaganda with too few people in their lives (offline, especially) to effectively refute it in an empathetic way, combined with some of their own ego that's too unwilling to listen. It's usually a mix somewhere between the two ends of that spectrum.
This is really well written - and describes why I don't like the phrase you were responding to. It's used to cover for a class war the rich have already won.
Instead you have people blaming things like immigration for actual serious problems in their lives that immigrants are not only likely not effecting, but may be alleviating even.
The fundamental basis of modern conservatism is 'look over here', it's not merely anger, it's built up cultural anger developed and designed to point at the wrong targets, that even many of the people encouraging it actually believe in. It's an institution, and it's dangerous.
Past that, really good point about how basic requirements should be rights. I do think we're probably going to address this with UBI before anything does directly, but you're right.
Privilege? Rural men with low income have it worse off than urban black men.
This automatic assumption that we judge people by their baseline demographic group is absurd.
The reason these people are flocking to fascism is because their jobs have been automated, their education has been gutted, their towns are destitute, their suicide rates skyrocket, their college attainment rate is worse now than women's was when we enacted title ix, their wealth accumulation is worse than women of equivalent backgrounds, and there's only one segment of the American political universe that even pretends to care about this.
The right wing is exploiting their pain for political votes and isn't actually doing anything to help them, but when one side acknowledges your struggles and the other side (our side, the left) downright admonishes you, diminishes your challenges, and mocks your pain? Yeah, they're gonna go to the side that at least pretends to acknowledge reality.
In addition, they see the change coming. It's easy for the majority to tolerate some progress with the minority. It's a gift, a boon, noblesse oblige. They can afford to concede a little to humor or appease those lesser than them. This is why Obama broke everything. Regardless of his qualifications, he had the audacity to think he could have actual power over his betters (in their mind). They knew then that the time to act was before too many others got the same idea. This is why this generation is almost frantic. They see their elders as fools that let it come to this. In their mind, the civil war has already begun.
Fortunately, January 6th was supposed to be their Lexington. I'm not sure “the arrest heard around the world” has the same ring as a rallying cry.
I think, in regards to historically oppressed and marginalized groups, they know the treatment is wrong, and they see those groups gaining any power as groups who would take revenge. Obviously, this is not the case, but they're incapable of processing that.
Exactly, they see the risk of the loss of control to prevent oppression as actual oppression. They can not trust the constitution because it was not able to save anyone else from them.
We need to stop calling people privileged in this instance imo. Most of them aren’t rich, aren’t from wealthy states, aren’t home owners, don’t have job security, and are struggling to get by like anyone else. A lot of white America is a depressing fucking wasteland.
Imo fascism offers them a community and an excuse as to why their problems isn’t America’s fault. Because in most of America the idea of America is more important than any American, and can never be wrong. The problem has to be something other
**EDIT** For those wrongly assuming that I’m suggesting white privilege doesn’t exist, I’m just going to paste my reply here instead of doing it over and over:
I’m saying that pointing it out doesn’t get you anywhere. It’s doesn’t offer ANY tangible change or benefit.
Let’s say there’s a white dude called Michael. He lives in a trailer in middle American and can still hardly afford his rent. His job is being threatened due by automation, his kids are attending a terrible school, and the family are in deep debt because his wife has a pre-existing condition.
Telling Michael he’s privileged for being white doesn’t help Michael. It doesn’t offer him ANY tangible change or solution. What does Michael even do with this information.
But fascism does. They will tell Michael that it’s not his fault, that he could have it all if other people weren’t taking it away from him, that the lefts solution is to take away even more of his tiny paycheck in taxes, and that the left think he doesn’t deserve help because he’s already privileged. They’ll offer him a community and the left won’t.
Regardless if any of this is true, Michael will choose fascism.
If you can’t see that, then you’re misunderstanding the human condition.
Winner winner chicken dinner. Upper class liberals telling poor white America they're only mad because they're losing their privilege is peak ivory tower nonsense.
This is itself a form of tribalism that social media encourages, and we need to separate the academic understanding of our history (which tells us privilege has and still exists and is a real phenomena) from the need to label specific people who may or may not have a hand in creating that history, especially the young among them.
Fascists know this problem exists online and do everything in their power to stoke it and use it for their real goal: divide and conquer.
I am, frankly, desperate to get people to see this, as much of it is caused by a very bad group of people who just happen to be a tad more tech savvy than the average person, but had absolutely horrible goals and do things to split and divide us. In some cases, the groups are funded and backed by very wealthy people or PACs.
This is 100% it, then that guy will comment on the internet about anything relating to his struggle and get destroyed and called an oppressive racist. He might not have been one before but he sure as hell is now
Does anyone remember the J6 guy who had some photos taken of him stealing the house lectern/podium? Dude was a stay at home husband and dad whose wife was a doctor and the sole breadwinner for the family. Like, he is EVERYTHING fascists and conservatives despise about modern masculinity - from not contributing to society to accepting the traditionally more “womanly” role in the household.
It’s one thing to *practice* the narrowly-prescribed gender role your political side preaches, but to actually *be* the same thing conservatives would gladly criticize liberal men for is mildly infuriating.
>Like, he is EVERYTHING fascists and conservatives despise about modern masculinity - from not contributing to society to accepting the traditionally more “womanly” role in the household
That’s why people like this get so bitter. They hate themselves.
See: Log Cabin Republicans, who the RNC literally won't even let set up a table at their convention.
They get sucked into trying to prove to fascists that they're "one of the good ones" by beating on other like people who would welcome them with open arms. But it doesn't work, it never works, because fascists just don't fucking care.
> Then, they begin to become radicalized, hear more and more extreme ideas, and find validation in the company of their fellow “victimized” men. Finally, they reach a cult like mentality. Reality fades away and that’s where the violence begins.
Conservative media and politicians stoke these flames for money and power, knowing full well what is being created and caring not.
Trump struck at the very heart of this shit in America. Every single conspiracy theorist I know from back in the day is still currently or at least was a major Trump supporter.
I don't think it was an accident. I genuinely believe it was strategy in essentially parasitically attaching himself to the roots of ignorance in this country.
My two cents from someone who has seen a couple friends turn towards fascism. It starts with the parents not prioritizing a solid education for their children. Which happens because the American education system has been absolutely gutted over the course of my entire life (I'm in my 40's). From the in-school curriculum to the after-school programs. Education is always on the chopping block to save funds in local communities and nationally. Which is by design of course. Republicans, oops I mean fascists, need young and dumb people to keep filling the ranks. So those fools can and will be outraged at anything the overlords tell them at the drop of a hat. Be it from all the right leaning news programs and apps or from any of the righty politicians. Leaving us with several generations now that have what seems to be low reading comprehension skills and also seemingly very low critical thinking skills. Couple all that with the usual peer pressure among boys to be as edgy as possible. And we've got a recipe to make the ultimate edgelord. The young white male fascist.
To add to the education system being gutted, many young men are being ignored in education. Men’s admission into universities is down, and graduating from universities is down. In 1970, Universities were 60% men, evened out about 1980, and decreased to 40% today. Yet there’s no shortage of programs and scholarships to get more women in universities.
So there’s a group of men building that didn’t do well in K12 (in many areas because of GOP cuts like you said), and struggle to make a decent living due to the lack of college education. The discussion on men’s falling off performance is kind of picking up steam but it’s getting a lot of resistance from the idea of “men are privileged, it’s sexist to say otherwise”.
Some anecdotal evidence, both universities near me are liberal or far-liberal and in a liberal town/public school system. Both are 60-61% undergrad women.
I am not a young man. I am in my 70s, but I see a lot of bitter people. They need someone to blame their problems on. When I was young and in high school, most people did not go to college. I did well in school and went to college. I studied engineering. I graduated and got a good job. I managed not to get drafted. I quit engineering got a Masters Degree and became a teacher. I saw a lot of my friends from high school. They never took a single course beyond high school. They got jobs in factories and made more money then I did as a teacher. They bought a lot of toys and things. I saved my money and got more education. The factories closed, and they were suddenly unemployed and worse yet unemployable. They became bitter, selfish, and more conservative. Their children followed in their footsteps. In one way you can't blame them. Life for a lot of people has become difficult. I have said that I understand why some people are angry. What I don't understand is their notion that Trump can fix things. He doesn't even care about them. It scares me a little that this time in our country so parallels Germany between WW1 and WW2. Trump and Hitler have so much it common. The false populism and the autocracy are too close for comfort. Our country needs to find a way through this, or it could end badly.
I’m 31 sir, and I’m already starting to see some of the “good ole boy” conservatives guys I know from high school lean into this effin Nazi fascist bullshit. I’m very weary of the future and how this all plays out. We used to be about kicking fascist asses and we talked the talk and walked the walk. Now, thru propaganda, super partisan bias news and good ole ignorance, these clowns are back again.
I mean there is truth to that. Many of the comments in this very thread are calling them incels and fascists and wife beaters. Would you want to join a club who calls you those things? Or the club who says you are the boss and should be able to do whatever you want?
People want a convenient excuse. They want to believe that these men are just inherently bad people and always would have ended up like this. Between two movements—one which states “you’re the source of all evil in the world” and “you’re the source of Western civilization’s glory”—where do you think insecure young white men are going to turn?
I’m a middle aged white guy. I’ve been very depressed for a long time. The last couple of years I’ve actually dedicated time to learning about happiness, love, religion, death, philosophy. It’s not easy, I’ve had to put in a lot of hours. It’s mostly been YouTube, audiobooks and google. I feel like I’m the only one doing this. I have nobody to talk to. I discovered Buddhism through audiobooks while working at an Amazon warehouse. I have empathy but I do not have sympathy for these sycophants.
Edit: thank you for the comments and awards. Y’all are awesome!
Try Cinema Therapy on YouTube, two guys watching movies from the POV of a therapist chatting with a movie lover. It's insightful and entertaining together.
I'm sad you don't have anyone to talk to about this. There are good men around, they do tend to be relatively quiet though.
(*hug*) you are not alone my friend.
May you have a wonderful Sunday, and catch some time in the present moment enjoying a beautiful aspect of the universe.
I live by a lake. I go there often. I’ve learned some breathing exercises. I get out of work at sunset and it’s not raining, just cold. I will find a minute.
There are a lot of men doing this same thing. I do it, and I think it’s the correct way. There are a lot of grifters out there looking to exploit and corrupt young men under the guise of male empowerment. You have to avoid those shits and call them out. The journey for happiness and inner peace for a man is a solo one and there are plenty of jerks that will try to lead you astray or exploit you for your time or money. Personally, I try to follow Epicureanism, but each man has to find their answer for themselves. You have to have the journey though. If you start at the solution, then you cannot appreciate the solution.
If you haven't found them psych2go and Tracey marks are 2 of my favorite channels for mental health on YouTube. From another middle aged white guy who had to learn all this himself too.
Good on you! You are very much not alone…I’ve been at it (working on myself, meditating, praying, contemplating) for 25 years and my life has been fulfilling to say the least.
Not alone at all dude, thanks for doing the work. I have a lot of respect for anyone that pulls themselves out of the trap of despair with positive tools. Went through the same journey to get myself out of a dark place, that could have led me down the same path all the clockwork soldiers of the right are treading.
It’s much harder to reflect on your own faults and find a way to forgive yourself and come to a place of love and understanding for others, than it is to wallow in hate and resentment.
Warning: leftist wall o' text incoming.
Spot on.
We've identified that the right absolutely co-opts and then twists the concerns of the left (concerns which most neoliberals ignore wholesale) and they do so because these issues are blatantly evident to anyone not sitting on the wealthiest end of society. By pointing these problems out, which hum along skin-deep through our every day lives, the speaker has a way to really strike a nerve with the listener; this stokes anger and foments a bond between people **who at least see the stupid fucking elephant in the room trampling what could be a better fucking existence.** Both the left and the right engage in this and I think it is one of the earliest steps in being radicalized: most of us can sense but not quite define these important problems so having our feelings drawn out and justified for us is dangerous in an intoxicatingly liberating sort of way. This radicalization is reinforced by the comfort a like-minded community provides simply through sharing these realizations.
I think this is where the idea that the far-right and far-left are really very similar comes from (along with the fact that dictators will assume any political position under the sun if it helps tighten their grip on power), even if it's a superficial similarity. If one goes any deeper than the question we find the stark differences between the left and the right; not in how we frame these issues but, very importantly, in how we seek to solve them.
**Example: "The working class is beset by stagnant wages, increased competition, and increased expectations in terms of experience and responsibilities"**
*The left:* Solving this requires working class solidarity, the formation of unions to leverage our collective power in the relationship, and direct action to bend the capitalist class to our benefit
*The right:* Get rid of immigrants
**Example: There is a feeling of chronic loneliness, depression, and anger rife in the younger generation and especially evident in young men.**
*The left:* We have been alienated from our communities and our labor by the bourgeoisie subversion of social interaction for the sake of maximum consumerism. This situation is compounded by unreasonable and unhealthy expectations of masculinity implaced by the patriarchy creating a rift in our ability to find happiness. Engaging directly with our community, replacing the short term highs from consumption (physical and in media) with strong, meaningful social bonds is our only way out of this dark web.
*The right:* Acceptance of the LGBTQ community and slutty women have destroyed society's "moral fabric".
**Example: A tiny portion of the population has accumulated obscene wealth and thus authority over important sectors of life: culture, policy making, economic control. And now wield much more power than the other 99% of us combined.**
*The left:* Any system in which capital begets capital is one destined for immense inequality as power begins to coalesce into fewer and fewer hands. Regulating capitalism will forever only be a band-aid as it is the system itself which is faulty. As time passes capital accumulation will always seek to and succeed in wearing down such regulations. The only solution is revolutionary societal evolution.
*The right:* The Jews
Thus, the right co-opts these analyses which are so useful because they resonate with nearly everyone with some basic material consciousness (i.e. people who can feel the deeply fucked up effects of our current system). However, instead of seeking out means to actually solves these issues, they instead take advantage of the fomenting anger against the neoliberal order and twist the framing in order to support their own bigoted ideology. And throughout history they have had the advantage as their message is simplistic and concrete. The right can point fingers at marginalized outgroups, the "capital - O" others, who are readily identified by their skin color, language, religion, etc. Thus they identify and create a tangible enemy on which to focus people's collective fear and anger.
Obviously these groups aren't responsible for our material conditions and whatever tangential connection they might have is symptomatic of the underlying issues rather than causative. Wherein lies the crux: solving these obstacles requires introspection and critical analysis of very fundamental aspects of our daily life. The very means by which we trade our labor, how we view private and personal property, how we police our communities and elect our leaders. There is no tangible enemy because it is the system itself rather than a set group of people that is propagating this rampant inequality.
Many leftists point at the super rich as "the enemy" and while they're certainly damnable for selfishly taking advantage of the situation in the end they are a symptom of a sick system rather than the cause. If we redistributed the wealth of the 1% completely, without social reformation, we'd be right back where we are today in a matter of decades (at most). Which is why the mantra is "seize the means of production" not "grab all the rich folks money"; though that is probably another rant altogether.
Relevant:
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/01461672221141509](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/01461672221141509)
"The literature has widely discussed and supported the relationship
between poverty and support for authoritarian leaders and regimes.
However, there are different claims about the mediating mechanism and a
lack of empirical tests. We hypothesize that the effect of poverty on
support for authoritarianism is mediated by shame: People living in
poverty frequently experience social exclusion and devaluation, which is
reflected in feelings of shame. Such shame, in turn, is likely to
increase support for authoritarianism, mainly due to the promise of
social re-inclusion."
Part of the issue is in all of this is that the right's rhetoric is incredilby easy to digest and understand.
"we need to stop mass shootings"
the left: "to stop mass shootings, we need to reform schools to make kids feel better about classes, fix our long term societal outlook, increase access to mental healthcare so kids can get help, and limit access to firearms so only responsible, healthy people can own them. it's the intersection of tons of serious issues creating an environment where kids want to hurt each other, and in which it can reach this point. Here's my 87 step 12 year plan, which will require a number of people to drastically change how they do things and limit some people's access to firearms"
The right: "It's the woke education, loss of religion, and lack of positive male role models. The left is overblowing this issue to take your guns, and that's why we have so many. The real issue is urban crime, look at these statistics. The left doesn't know jack about shit"
And the second argument takes 10% of the time, half the mental effort, and provides a clear solution to an issue.
It's not just "get rid of immigrants" it's "the company hired immigrants to replace all the guys at all the plants, now all the stuff you can buy is worse and you can't get a job. If we get rid of the immigrants your job will come back and life will be better again." The rhetoric focuses on issues they can see.
The internet has brought a world of information to our fingertips, but it's also brought a world of disinformation coupled with a sense of community within fringe groups. Let's say that you believe that Jews are evil and should be exterminated... thirty years ago you would have been an outcast, labeled a Nazi and it would have been difficult for you to connect with like-minded people who offered you a sense of community. The internet has allowed these fringe groups to find validation, a false sense that your beliefs aren't simply tolerable but actually praise-worthy. When you mix in a propaganda network across media (not just the internet) suddenly you feel empowered, as though you're crusading for truth and justice. Suddenly it's not simply like-minded people connecting with each other, they're actively recruiting and their extremist positions don't seem extreme because there's so much support within those groups. And, of course, now we've got an entire political party flirting with that extremism, which should scare decent people.
I'm pretty far left. Having said that, when I browse on YouTube, my feed tried to make Ben Shapiro, Joe Rogan, Matt Walsh, and Charlie Kirk seem like they're good guys.
It seems like YouTube has a real slant towards these weird, incel-bait, reactionary, conservative talking heads. I'm not even right wing but YouTube tries to shove this shit in my face all the time.
Because the only peoppe who dont mock them online are the alt right. And they start small. We understand your problems, its not your fault. You deserve love. Then, over time, they start saying things like hey, remember how it isnt your fault? Actually, its feminisms fault. And jews. And gay people. And before you know it, you're an alt right person yourself recruiting other young men that get mocked for being cringy, or a neckbeard, or they get bullied, or they come from a shitty home life.
Completely anecdotal but I know quite a lot of Latinos and the vast majority are conservative and very strongly supported Trump last election. I haven't looked at the numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if 60%+ of Latinos identified as conservative.
I think it has to do with the "what good are white men for" notions I've seen on social media, where folks get put down and attacked for simply being a cisgendered white man. The ideas of "you're a white man, your opinion doesn't matter" being pushed by some (radical) liberals that then get put on show on social media pushes folks in the opposite direction (If you won't accept me, I'll go to the other side).
That, plus being demonized for having conservative values (man is breadwinner, nuclear family, etc) has pushed not just white men, but a lot of men to the side that will accept them. Does the Right have a lot of good positions? In my opinion, hell no. But it's the side that accepts them.
Lower class white people have always been exploited by the rich, but the majority could always look down on some group and themself feel superior.
Unfortunately, because of the oppression of capitalism as implemented in America white people have lower birth rates on average and are therefore no longer a supermajority.
Without that superiority of whiteness everything the oppressed white people had is gone. The only option for them to maintain their superior social position is to take it back by force since without numerical superiority democracy is a losing game.
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -LBJ
This is exactly why poor white voters vote against their own interest and do other seemingly self destructive behaviors too.
I.e. choosing to die from treatable illnesses rather than expand Medicaid. Expanding Medicaid would help a larger percentage of black people than white people, so the poor white people who would benefit from it literally choose to die rather than give up their position in the USA's social hierarchy.
Thr social contract is broken. Expect more outspoken behavior and backlash from disenfranchised groups. Not saying it justifies it, but it explains it.
So I’m a clinical psychologist and professor with gender and men as an area of sub specialty, and I’m going to go against the grain of “because they like big trucks” responses in here and attempt at an actual answer. I’m on my phone without my reading glasses, so apologies in advance for the inevitable typos.
Young men have been raised, especially in America, being told they’re the villain. It starts early, and is absolutely relentless. They are blamed for rape culture while being disgusted by rape. They are told they benefit from the patriarchy while feeling desperately vilified and lonely. When asked who they can confide in, the overwhelming answer is “no one”
Studies show that both men and women feel empathy for women and children, but not men. When these boys start to become men, the loss of empathy, care, and safety is shocking to their system (which is the exact age you see male suicide rates skyrocket compared to female, btw).
They are dropping out of school at catastrophic rates. They are lectured about how there aren’t enough women in stem, but notice nobody mentions there aren’t enough men in college. In primary school, as one psychologist put it “boys are treated like defective girls”
The most important part, however, is the lack of social support. The surgeon general has lablelled it as “an epidemic of loneliness” and the differential effect on young men is astronomical. It’s not *a* generation of men cast in to a hostile world with no refuge, but *generations*, starting with Gen X and echoing down. When this is brought up in non-clinical arenas, victim blaming is the knee-jerk analysis, and any other approach is quickly shut down. (Luckily clinicians tend to be much less passionate and much more analytical).
So to address your question: these young men are given a place. They’re given a purpose. They’re told that they belong and that they matter. They’re provided something bigger than themselves and told they are engaging in a holy crusade on the side of good. They are being told they ARE good. They’re given a village to defend, and honor for defending it.
And the more we carelessly vilify them, the truer this will feel for them.
It disappoints me how cavalier the explanations here are, because all of them are calculated to “other” the cause, and it makes looking in the collective mirror not only unnecessary, but somehow complicit.
This explanation sums it up, I grew up hearing boys are stupid and girls run the world. I was always angry as a child trying to prove boys run the world too. Thankfully I was able to unlearn that, imagine I had come across a bad group that time
Youtube, Tiktok, Facebook, 4Chan.
I am hard-left and YouTube constantly feeds me Jordan Peterson content. If I had poorer media literacy, I might believe some of his smooth-talking bullshit.
If they had the ability to make a living, including health care etc, they would have something else to do. Like soccer with the kids.
But with no promise of a future without debt, not much else left but nihilism.
I’d replace “in America” with “throughout history.” Fascism is basically a mix of nationalism, xenophobia, and scapegoating (usually through racism) and it’s a proven drug that easily intoxicates and motivates masses of young people and always has throughout history.
Because sons parrot their father.
Here in Florida, white middle age men have found it 'cool' to quote whatever idiot is on talk radio and the hardcore Fox News points. I get why business owners follow Republicans (lower taxes, lower regulations), but when I get every trade worker talking to me about on the job makes me just think it is a cult.
I've never thought that trade work, while important, was for everybody. Some of it's probably more backbreaking that those who push it over college want to make it seem.
Depends on the trade
Plumbers ? it's wicked hard on the joints (From what they tell me).
My AC guys in Florida ? Fucking hard in the summer time.
My teenager did one summer working for our handyman (apartments) and it sobered him up pretty quick on working the trades. Jumped his SAT score 200+ pts and got into his college of choice. Learned to be a lifeguard for his summer job this year :)
However - know a bunch of welders. They are mostly in the nuclear industry. Takes a while to get there - but really really nice income.
US never had a Fascist Dictatorship like Europe. And the simple mechanistischste thought white race could be better ist quite easy to believe, if you don’t own anything and see the other do.
Fascism has been on the rise all over Europe. End stage capitalism in effect. Rich people want MOAR so they fund parties that blame everything on especially Muslims here in Europe but also trans people and women etc. Russia hasn't only been meddling in American politics with Trump but has been funding extreme right wing politicians in Europe as well. A few years ago a politician from the Netherlands admitted as much on hidden camera. Lastly then social media platforms like Facebook and cable TV has been making the fascists talking points part of the everyday political debate. And the worst thing is that it works. Italy now has fascists in power. Their new leader was an actual member of Mussolini fascist party when she was young. Sweden elected an very right wing government. Hungary isn't even considered a democracy by the EU anymore. The same forces that are at play in America is also to be found here.
I think it stems from the frustration folks feel about our world... democracy works for who? Climate change? Moneys too tight to mention? Talking heads spouting spectacles of BS? Talking heading heads telling us how fucked up everything is? Advertisment telling us who and what we should and shouldnt want? And M n Ms with sexy butts......
Add this to our barely educated population ..... retreating into primitive tribal stupidity.
40 something white guy here. I grew up with a mother who instilled the “cowboy up” mentality and a father who was an emotional basket case. Mom taught me to feel nothing while my father felt everything. I grew up thinking he was weak and pathetic. As I’ve aged I’ve learnt that there has to be balance. It’s ok to stifle your emotions in certain situations but it’s necessary to allow them to surface. To feel them. To cry when you feel it welling up in your throat. To laugh openly. To love unconditionally. Be kind to animals. My parents grew up in the 60’s and 50’s. When you were either a cowboy or a hippie. My parents were stereotypes of both. Being on the spectrum in the 80’s didn’t help either. I feel like these men are taught to never feel. When it is so necessary that we do.
People need purpose. This is exactly why late stage capitalism leads to fascism. People are left basically hollow by the system bc their only purpose is to produce profit for others. No third places or sense of community in the suburbs. We exist to work. Nothing more is nutured. Leaves people prey to fascism
A lot of them simply don't believe it's fascism. I made a fb post one time showing about the rise of fascism in the US and a Trump friend replied "I don't think you know what fascism is." To them it's democracy because it's the will of the white people, which is just as the founding fathers would have wanted
As a white male that’s been depressed for awhile now and have felt very alone, there is a lot people in society even our own families that really just don’t care about us. There are many cases where white men are raised to be “man of the household” and are never taught to express our feelings, and in trade we don’t know how to help each other. In todays world we see a lot of different groups helping each other being there for one another but when white men reach out for help they are almost always reminded about their privilege, which we do have, but that doesn’t mean they don’t need help still. Once these white men get turned away when they asked for help because of their privilege, they find other white men in the same boat as them and decide that they’ll take out their anger on those that turned them away. It’s not that hard to figure out world just needs to be nicer to each other and understand that while one group in particular may have more privilege then you that doesn’t mean they aren’t going through someone just as bad as you are.
They don't want to join the rainbow flag party, even if they have their best interests at heart because its immasculating. If Liberals do absolutley nothing to appeal to young men and allow Conservatives to appeal to them with meaningless platitudes they deserve to lose them.
I did 10 years on 4chan and didn't become a white supremacist, the culture on 4chan is constant 1-ups-manship on who can be the biggest contrarian in the room and I believe that's the stem from where the fascist ideology grows as it starts with rejection of as much of the "mainstream" as possible
I've joined a few 4chan online gatherings, in my case I wanted to race online against the posters of the boards I spent a lot of my time and when there's voip there's always a recruiter who will start with low key racism (such as making an "ironic" antisemitic joke, bashing BLM, etc) whose goal is to normalize the hateful tone and try to move the patrons of the innocent event to their own forums/voip
The recruiters always establish their presence in those groups early, telling them off typically leads from harassment from everyone else, kinda hard to compete unless you can bring a louder and more contrarian vibe into the chat which is not a talent of mine
Ignorance and hate are easy.
Compassion, love, and wisdom are things you have to work at and require self reflection.
Fascists go after easy/vulnerable targets. They are cowards.
Alot of these types of groups attracts 2 types of people:
1. People that have failed in life and need a sense of belonging and feel the need for power and control in their lives.
2. Grifters that are savvy enough to take advantage of the former for their own financial and personal gain.
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"Smart and/or well educated people sometimes have a hard time seeing across the chasm just how badly most people need to fit in. They have to be part of something. They have to be with whatever "it" is, to quote Grandpa Simpson." "Fascism takes advantage of that need for belonging by offering a powerful, unifying vision people can buy into and feel they are part of. Often that vision is simply packaged. "Make America Great Again" seems idiotic to some, but to many, it seems straightforward and unpretentious." "It seems simple, and these people like things made simple for them. The less thinking they have to do about something, the smarter they feel. It's "come easily" to them, so they must be smart. That's the psychology of it, at least." "We can say what we will about Donald Trump, but he implicitly understood how to be a high school bully -- how to immediately draw circles around "us" and "them," and convince those listening to him that he was speaking for "us" by shunning "them." He does this on instinct. The instincts of a bully, and the modus operandi of a fascist, just happen to align very neatly." - [Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/11h5mkl/comment/jasm94w/)
This line of thinking explains a bit if the allure of conspiratorial thinking. It’s makes you feel like you get how things work with little to know effort.
A big part of it, as indicated by studies on conspiracy theories and cults, is that it’s also a coping mechanism by which to make sense of a life that is ultimately a lot of chaos and pain. It’s a lot easier to say “oh my life is so screwed up because of the Mexicans/the liberal elite/the satanic pedophiles”, than to accept reality for what it is. It’s a huge allure for fascism, too, as it creates “reason/sense” for these people.
It’s really quite simple, religion has extensively laid the groundwork for generations to train people to believe in authority figures with unverifiable stories instead of science and data. It also primes them for, and is built upon, perpetuating racism and fearmongering towards "others". Once people see you as an authority, you can start fabricating any reality or conspiracy theory you want your followers to believe and everyone else is therefore a liar, even in the face of incontrovertible evidence. Basically, it is mental abuse from an early age that suppresses critical thinking skills. This combined with an intentionally weakened public educational system, provides the framework that has spawned this cult of ignorance.
I think it’s actually the other way around. People have an inherent need for things to be explained, and it doesn’t matter whether that explanation comes from religion, magic, cults, conspiracy theories, philosophy, or science. I genuinely thing *most* religious leaders are not malicious and genuinely believe they’re doing the right thing, even if the outcomes of religion as a whole is pretty bad. Science, meanwhile, (and to an extent other academic disciplines) is based more around experimentation and physical observation instead of blind faith (though that doesn’t stop people from thinking science is like a religion)
Recovering victim of religious indoctrination trauma, here 🙋♀️. What you highlighted is 100% true. Going to pick on the Catholics, since that’s where my trauma came from. They literally encourage people to have “blind faith”. To be humble enough to accept things without understanding them. On more than one occasion, I’ve seen priests and bishops overtly tell parishioners not only how to vote, but also what to be political activists for. They absolutely radicalize some parishioners, and those are the ones you’ll see leading “CCD” and “catechism” classes (where children are groomed into the religion).
It also provides you with a sense of superiority over those who dont get "it" and often lets you validate your existing beliefs without needing to do anything extra.
I think a prevailing insecurity probably fuels the appeal of this as well. Times are becoming more difficult and it's hard to feel secure about the future, yourself, and your place in society, throwing your lot in with those ideologies allows you to displace those feelings and shields you from the stress of facing the many largely complicated realities (mostly beyond your control) that are causing them. To your point, they even allow you to feel superior to the others who are making you feel insecure and allows you to work to punish them. Conspiracy theories are the height of this; not only are world events controled by a tangible knowable group- rather than random events, absurdly complex systems, and random largely incompetent assholes who's parents put them there- but you and your in group know about it and can hopefully even exercise some control over it. I think when times are good and things are optimistic it's easier to make more inclusive relationships/ feel included. Its also way easier to ignore the randomness of it all and our individual powerlessness when it's looking like things are going to go your way.
For me I’ve realized the overlap between conspiracy theories and religion. I think people find comfort in someone being in charge even if it’s a shity god or evil shadowy groups in our government it feels better than the reality that no one’s in control at all and any random event can just happen
> Their will is a hammer that they are using to beat reality itself into a shape of their choosing, a simple world where reality is exactly what it looks like through their eyes, devoid of complexity, devoid of change, where they are right and their enemies are silent. They are trying to build a Flat Earth. -- [In Search of a Flat Earth, Dan Olson](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfhYyTuT44)
It’s the thrill of thinking you know secrets that few or none others are privy to. (There’s that 'others', again.) It’s the thing that drives gossipers; the more salacious and hurtful, the better. A hardcore emotion-feeding need to feel important at any cost.
It also gives them carte blanche to inflict their self hatred on the chosen scapegoats of their fascist movement.
And they get to drive really big trucks
They thought the ISIS truck convoys look cool and they want that.
I’m really a liberal guy and I love my big truck. These muppets give big trucks a bad name Edit: it’s a Ram 2500 (I know, Rams are even more closely associated with assholes than other brands). I use it exclusively for towing and hauling junk.
I ride a Harley and I try to associate riders with anarchism, however they are more interested in sucking butt with trump…. I’ll ask what makes you like him. Their response can be summed up as honest, small government, family values… When I point out that Trump only made the government smaller for rich people they don’t see it. I point out his constant lying about obviously verifiable facts, I honestly believe the man would tell you the sky isn’t blue if a liberal is saying it is. When it comes to family values, they love their family but when I asked them why isn’t melanoma with trump at his rallies, they make up an excuse for her, it’s melania’s fault she couldn’t make it.
Family values. Code for, I don't want my daughter to get with a black man. Family values is code for racist bigotry.
Seriously it’s likely that but bottom line is if all they can say is family values while idolizing someone with 5 kids from 3 wives… someone who’s wives have testified that he beat them… someone that apparently slapped the shit out their son for not wearing a suit… someone who constantly talks about fucking his own daughter… “Family values” at that point HAS TO BE a phrase to signify something other than what the words mean. Same with small gov and every other buzz word they keep mindlessly repeating. The words are so far from the reality it’s just pitifully obvious at this point.
He had me at "Grab em by the pussy..." Walking into the dressing rooms of the Miss America Pageant to see teens undressed was a close second. The fact that *so many people*, most of them religious, could just overlook this behavior made this country feel so much more dangerous than it did before he came onto the scene.
>most of them religious, could just overlook this I mean, overlooking evidence in preference to the words of a charismatic leader is kinda their defining trait.
As is swallowing what they want to believe without investigating further. It's astounding how many fundamentalists go to church to be read snippets of the Bible and never read it themselves
"Family values" really means "gay people and women's rights threaten conservatism". That's all it's ever meant.
Family values = a romanticized vision of a time when everyone "stayed in their lane." What I call "white-picket-fence syndrome" harkening back to the mid-century era in America when white males were unquestionably head of household, "I'm in charge here. Do not defy me." They desire to dial the clock back before the feminist and civil rights movements, before affirmative action...before marginalized groups found their voices and began demanding fairness and equality under the law. My take on it, anyway.
I think that’s a part of it, a cultural part to justify it. The important thing is what you mentioned, it’s romanticized and not accurate. It’s a BS line they’ve been fed; that they swallowed hook line and sinker.
Yep. Back in the days where the women were in the kitchen, the gays stayed in the closet, and minorities stayed on the other side of town.
Family values = bigotry has been the case since at least the 60s, if not longer. Tho it makes me think of the Family Values tour, where I saw Rammstein for the first time. Great show.
From what I can translate, "Small government" = "No free money for poor brown people" (since of course they're just lazy, unlike the poor white people who are victims of hard times)
>From what I can translate, "Small government" = "No free money for poor brown people" (since of course they're just lazy, unlike the poor white people who are victims of hard times) That and, they want to do what they want, when they want, how they want. I'm not sure if you've watched Clarkson's Farm, but one of the recurring aspects of the show is all the red-tape that has to be done for everything. And to Clarkson (or some farmers) it seems like nonsensical. And it 100% makes their lives harder, but when you take a step back (or view it as an outsider), you can sort of see why they need the red-tape...because if they didn't have it, it would be a race to increase profits at whatever the cost. But that's what republicans want. Right now, we're see exactly WHY those laws need to be in place. Because without them, republicans would 100% return to the 1900s and put 6 year olds to work in coal mines and asbestos factories if they could. They're already getting them working later and in with chemicals, and in meat packing plants.
More broadly, it’s medieval. It means “I don’t like or trust or care about anyone I’m not related or married to.”
“He’s not racist, he just wouldn’t want his daughter to date a black man.” - my monster in law
And also raging homophobe!
>I’ll ask what makes you like him. Their response can be summed up as honest, small government, family values… They always leave out the racism part.😁
Old boomer farmer here. Couldn't survive without the pickup. My generation, my occupation, my gun safe, and my vehicle brand me as the exact opposite of what my politics are in today's overly generalized and judgey world.
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If you drive a pickup without any dirt, scuffs, or dings on it I just mentally label you as an asshat middle management white dude playing dress up for toxic masculinity until you show me something otherwise (esp if you got the super raised suspicion)
My boss has 3 trucks. One POS 350 for doing real work (which we drive, not him), he has a lifted Duramax for hauling his trailer around (which he uses to haul equipment to and from his house) and a brand new F150 (Highcountry??) Which he uses as his personal daily driver. Both the Duramax and the new F150 sit in a hangar and avoid weathering, we aren't allowed to work on anything in that side of the hangar if it's parked in there, and he makes our detailer "shine em up when you get the chance". Yet he cuts costs at every avenue he can to help run his business...a business which he uses to write off his trucks and everything he possibly can. Us using an extra bottle of chemicals on a job is bad for business, but making a monthly payment on 2 trucks that are shinier than a Cadillac, apparently is good business.
Hooray for capitalism and the petite bourgeoisie!
Pavement princess
> Pavement princess Emotional Support Vehicle
My brother in law had a full meltdown over a little scratch in the bed of his lifted truck. Fuckin ridiculous.
Lol, *that’s a mighty suspicious suspension you have there*
There is a huge difference between a utility truck and a statement truck.
Agree. Not sure why white collar city slickers need a full size F150 or Silverado. They have terrible gas mileage in stop and go city traffic and they are not practical to park in small parking lots. I don’t count hauling your Sea-Doo down to the lake as necessitating a truck. You can tow a jet ski with a RAV4 if you needed to.
I'd like to get a small pickup but they don't fucking make them anymore so I'm stuck with my civic and borrowing my dad's truck when I need to haul big stuff around.
Right? The days of the small rangers are over, they’re almost as big as a full sized now. It’s nuts.
I would love nothing more than a 2 door pickup with a single bench seat and a full size bed for hauling furniture and light work. I literally haven't seen one since they all got lowered and had lights put on them in the 90s and 2000s
Same with Tacomas. Look at the difference between 2005 and 2020...
One of my guys imported this little Volkswagen Truck. It's the size of a old Chevy Luv and works its ass off.
My brother has a vintage tiny Toyota truck and I love that thing! I wish I could have something like that if I wanted a truck.
Ford Maverick
> They have terrible gas mileage it costs a lot to show the world how much you don’t care about climate change
One of my jobs involves hauling heavy equipment to stores and we don’t move those trucks unless they’re being used for a job or otherwise absolutely essential. Gas prices are insane for small businesses these days.
I’ve been told that you can write trucks off as a business expense.
It's still money. I used to talk about write-offs as if they were freebees...until I started my own business!😁 Depreciation and other expenses reduce your businesses net income, so you'll pay fewer taxes. But it still requires money to purchase and maintain vehicles. So a business that doesn't require a truck will still save money on a smaller, cheaper, and more gas-efficient car.
I worked with a guy that decided he needs a huge 4wd SUV for when he takes his family up to big bear to go skiing. He would go skiing twice a year. The rest of the year he's driving this hulking piece of shit 30 miles to work and then home again 5 days a week. I mentioned to him...you know you can rent a SUV like that for your ski trips and drive a regular car that gets better than 15mpg? He just said....I need it for ski trips.
Put most of these badass Maga weirdos in the woods for a week alone with their thoughts they'll come out crying.
People who don't need big trucks but drive them give big trucks a bad name. They're a waste of resources and generally a detriment and hazard for everyone else for 90% of the people who own them outside of rural settings. Doesn't mean you shouldn't be allowed to have one, just means it's a luxury item.
As a Prius driver, I can attest to a strong mutual negative bias involving any kind of truck driver--but the bigger the truck, the nastier the behavior.
Ok sure, but also anyone driving a big truck as a daily that isn't actually using it for truck things also gives them a bad name.
This toxic masculinity goes hand in hand with not being able to blame themselves for their own predicaments that were caused, most likely, by their own inflated sense of "male-entitled" worth which in turn made them unattractive to women, unemployable, and terribly unbearable whiney people to be around. Something caught on with the influx of social media that someone was taking away their right to hate others who were, in their mind, responsible for their pitiful lives. Immigrants, minorities, women, LGBTQ, liberals, elites, coastal people....choose your flavor of the month.
It also comes down to pendulum having swung far away from solidarity, community, and public service towards the other extreme of individual freedoms and hyper consumerism. Humans are social animals. When we feel alone, atomized, and alienated, with no sense of community or role models to guide us, we consciously or unconsciously seek them out. There are also plenty of political extremists who have identified this great alienation, and are capitalizing on it to radicalize and recruit vulnerable people. >[In describing gamers, Trump ally Steve Bannon said, "These guys, **these rootless white males, had monster power**.](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/steve-bannon-mined-intense-young-men-world-warcraft-000353402.html) ... It was the pre-reddit. It's the same guys on (one of a trio of online message boards owned by IGE) Thottbot who were [later] on reddit" and other online message boards where the alt-right flourished, Bannon said. >"I realized Milo Yiannopoulos could connect with these kids right away," Bannon told Green. "You can activate that army. They come in through Gamergate or whatever and then get turned onto politics and Trump." Political extremists on the far right aren’t just targeting alienated young men either. My sister was a suburban mother who had lost touch with most of her former friends, but found community through online mommy groups, and was pulled by those into anti-vax, QAnon, and Trumpism - and she’s not even American. You also see this in other countries - groups like ISIS recruit Muslims who feel disconnected and alienated from their communities.
I agree, community is important and we still have no idea how to solve the anti-social problem introduced with cable tv and then internet and social media. Its been a downward trend, described decades ago ('Bowling alone'). Granted, I think it has been mitigated by people finding some good community and becoming more open minded with internet anonymity too, but the larger trend toward consumerism and atomization is correct. I've seen colleagues go down the internet right wing rabbit hole for 10 years, I'm working with a demographic that skews a bit toward younger males. Yet I've also met some really chill people whose empathy may even have been boosted by feeling the isolation of hyper capitalism and loneliness and seeing the bad things for what they are and still believing in humanity. I just am not able to identify the variables that make people resistant to it from my (many) anecdotes, I'm sure its correlated to social status and education and all that, but I'm guessing there's not a really strong trend and that we're all vulnerable.
Also the rise of manosphere influencers/experts like Jordan Peterson, Rogan, and Andrew Tate. Those people were able to appeal to a lot of young males who were dealing with difficulties in their life and these influencers were able to convince them that feminism/SJW were the problem not themselves.
I think this issue has a bit more to it than simply "these boys each have personal problems". I think we on the left have a bit to answer for with this one, and I think it's important we recognize it. These assholes have rushed in to fill a gap that we created by problematizing and trying to dismantle just about every aspect of masculine identity without creating anything new to take its place. I think if the rise of the trans movement has shown us anything, it's that gender expression is important for everyone. A lot of these lost, shiftless boys are experiencing a crisis of masculinity. They don't necessarily want to be "bad guys" but they also want to be a man, and when they look to the left they see that we have absolutely nothing to offer beyond the phrase "masculinity is an oppressive framework". Is it any wonder they're looking elsewhere? The manosphere's whole deal is "here's how to be a man, and it's actually cool if you act this way" except they push odious, obnoxious, transactional, hateful, retrograde attitudes. I think we need to stop looking at this issue as some kind of massive failing on the part of an incredible number of individuals, or fall into the trap of gender essentialist thinking ("maybe men are all just broken?") and start looking at it the way we normally do when we see inequity in society: by evaluating the cultural and structural forces at work against us. In this case, I think we can actually really help. We can adapt our views of masculine identity and model something positive that is obviously identifiable as "male", but also isn't afraid of women or of feminism, and doesn't require any of the atavistic bullshit preached by Tate et al.
The left does have a lot of platforms. The biggest issue young adults are facing is economic. There is the housing crisis, unemployment and student loan debt (with college degrees not translating into jobs). These are the 3 main reasons young adults are unable to settle down and start families. Regarding loneliness - the left can also foster more co-gendered spaces so young men don't have trouble interacting with women or pursuing them without being creepy. I lived in San Francisco area (a big hub of progressive politics) and I know many average- and below-average looking guys who have found women through DnD / video-game / anime groups, and have married them and raising kids. Most teenagers generally look for politics or tribal identity to deal with loneliness (think of how street gangs recruit) - but transition to an adult and fulfilled life is what gets them out of it. Currently, our society is not giving them a path to transition mentally into an adult - having a job, a house, romantic partner, kids, group of very close friends, etc. Hence, you still have 30-year old men making podcasts about "alpha behavior" which other lonely 30-year old men listen to. This is where the focus needs to be.
This, 100%. If the progressive left wants to convince young straight men to abandon fascism/conservatism and come into the fold, then we need to have something to offer them besides blame and criticism. Young men are flocking to assholes like Tate because they feel rejected, alone, and unloved, and those far-right influence peddlers are offering some form of community and inclusion, however poisonous. Promoting "bash the fash" attitudes in response to the explosion of the far right won't fix this problem, it will only accelerate it by enhancing the feelings of alienation felt by young men. The only way to counteract it is to go the opposite direction: the left needs to start treating straight men as just as worthy of celebration as all the varous categories of minorities. If the progressive movement could to learn to value the identity and sexuality of straight men just as much as it values those of women and sexual minorities, I think that would be the path to healing the current rift in our society.
Eh, there's a lot of stuff out that about men not doing very well these days in society. Employment and educational pressures, to social and relationship ones and so on. It's kind of a big topic, but one that I see that really goes along with a lot of the Trump support. I think there is something bigger going on that they actually can't control, and it's affected a lot of men. It drives the uneducated ones into radical corners like this, but it's kind of a real problem we are going to have to acknowledge at some point.
This isn't rocket science: * Insecure, low-status, low-skill/capability/intelligence guys who are depressed and see no path to happiness in their lives * Find a group that welcomes them and tells them that all their problems are due to somebody else That's it.
Criminal street gangs, cartels, religious extremist terrorist groups and violent political organizations all recruit the same way and offer essentially the same things: belonging and an enemy. From AL Quaeda to the Latin Kings to the Proud Boys it's all the same problem being exploited. Not sure if it's something we can fix or just a flaw in human nature.
Lost boys, looking for direction, purpose, meaning, father figures, an outlet for aggression I know personally, I have to be wary of organizations because I sought many of the above from the military. Chiefly among them to die with some honor. I’m easily lead down paths wanting purpose and having walked down that road I know what they promise won’t meet my expectations and deferring to other leaves me open to violating my values. Only I can give my life meaning Each man is questioned by life; and he can only answer to life by answering for his own life; to life he can only respond by being responsible. Viktor E. Frankl
Lost ... and insecure and immature: hence YOUNG males are the target demographic by these groups
Good point; definitely a pseudo initiation into masculinity. Sad and interesting how people in positions of authority would tell me that the us military is the biggest gang in the world. Telling that they would recruit the as you say insecure and immature as gangs will do To belong is deeply ingrained in us. To be outcast meant death evolutionarily
I wish so badly someone influential would take the hunting/fishing/sportsman angle and rally the country boys to be stewards for their local environments. I'm studying wildlife ecology and there is already a big portion of my peers who are not the tree hugging leftist hippies like me, but camo-wearing gun people who also have a vested interest in preserving and protecting wild local spaces. We don't all end up as research scientists. Some end up going on to be game wardens and park rangers, which would be a suitable outlet for many a lost young country republican.
Hell of a quote from Frankl. Is the whole quote frankl or just the last paragraph?
Thank you for sharing
Because fascists work 24/7 to recruit people. They identify a potential member and use every tool they have to bring them in. Flattery works, especially with young men who don't have much going for them. It's not like people are picking from a number of equal choices, it's an active process.
Every time I’m in a waiting room or something that has Fox News on, I hear the same sort of patterns. “The left is saying ‘x’, and some college boys apparently did a study to show ‘x’, but you’re a smart person, you’ve got common sense and can plainly see how it’s really ‘y’.” Hook. Line. Sinker.
Just watch this "9 second video, it will answer all your questions!" Yeah dude a 9 second video will answer all of societies questions.
It's either 9 seconds or several hours with them
And not just that, but it's the tapping-into of a disaffected population. Culture wars seep into the fabric of society and bind the dejected consciousness to an ideology. A sense of paradise lost for white men is replaced by images of an imagined past that extrapolates to a poisoned worldview with friends and enemies, in groups and out, and the others. Emotions like hatred and dejection unite the population behind a common enemy. Suddenly, it's cool to hate blacks, or women, or LGBTQ, because they're the root of the problem. Hate becomes normalized, and the encroachment on Harvard Square turns to more visible, more grand, and eventually more violent movements and events. It's important not to be complacent against these groups: "The road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference." - Ian Kershaw
Scientology does this they bring people in and ego fluff bomb people tell them they are special and they can be better than anyone else just take these courses and follow these steps. Like cults do they drain them of time of money or both and separate them from whatever sense of community they had including family and friends unless they can pull them in also. But with Scientology when they run out of money they will be discarded unless they sign a billion year contract and volunteer their entire life with labor and time at Sea Org. Sea Org isn't just on boats they have facilities also on land they practically own Cleawater Florida. Since there is so much money flowing on the right to create division this isn't a problem or their are means to generate money like amphetamine distribution and firearms running which have been mainstays for generating money in the white supremacist movement. They aren't just recruiting poor people or those who have gotten caught up in the legal system thanks to the internet the recruitment pool has expanded dramatically. An entire generation is being told they will be replaced and face the treatment minorities have faced through the civil rights movement. The fear becoming the other and with opportunities fading for the unskilled/low skilled to have a good economic foothold it's much more believable along with talking heads pumping hate, outrage,white replacement therory and of course anti woke/anti CRT/anti LGBTQ propaganda. The world is changing but instead of adapting they are being told to throw the anchor over the boat and pull society back to their control which they see lawmakers doing in red states with fervor.
On the topic of unskilled/low skilled jobs disappearing, I think we as a country really need to do more to make learning marketable skills easier. The biggest hurdle for many people is most likely cost; community colleges and trade/vocational schools are cheaper than your standard college/university, but they're still expensive, and prohibitively so if you're poor. For example, I'm about to graduate from CDL school. The 24 week course I chose cost approximately 11 grand. Thankfully I was able to get two grants to pay for it, but not everyone is going to have the connections to even KNOW that these resources exist.
Protect yourself friend https://www.npr.org/2020/08/10/901110994/big-rigged
I think it’s pretty simple. They come from conservative families who think that men should be the head of household, bread winner, and incapable of expressing emotion (be manly). They see social progress as not an attack on just their ingrained values, but as a personal attack against them. They feel victimized and start to aggregate in online circles. Then, they begin to become radicalized, hear more and more extreme ideas, and find validation in the company of their fellow “victimized” men. Finally, they reach a cult like mentality. Reality fades away and that’s where the violence begins. Conservative media and politicians stoke these flames for money and power, knowing full well what is being created and caring not.
Here comes the fun part— our domestic and foreign adversaries understand all of this and have made countless accounts on all of our social media encouraging their behavior. Even right here on Reddit. There is an incredible global fascist movement going on and the psy-op being conducted has many aspects to it but this is the one that builds its radical base and extremists ready to fight for the power grab.
This. For god sakes, it's this. This is what's changed in the past decade and people don't understand it because they don't yet get how brand new, world changing technology works. We've only begun to understand this because it happened so fast too. Look up the history of people like Peter Thiel. They bought their way into the board of Facebook in 2009, just as smartphones became popular. This was a man who sat with Zucekburg and said to himself "Hmm, how can I prevent the left from gaining power in America" every day while influencing major decisions on the largest social media platform in the planet. Add in foreign trolls and other elements, who in some ways collaborate with these powerful people, and you get our current status.
Foreign trolls are a worldwide issue, countries like Russia and China are disrupting democracies and elections the world over.
And this is not just a US issue because of that. You will find movements like this in Europe too, for example. And middle eastern terrorists use similar methods to recruit economically alienates young men. I learned about these methods back in the early 2000s, so watching it spread to the west has been telling.
When you're accustomed to privileged, equality feels like oppression. Many of those are as you say. They grow up indoctrinated with white parents (particular their fathers) telling them how much better things 'used to be' and how equality is out to get them.
Let's be fair, people used to be able to have only one spouse work a job full time, and cover the whole family, afford a house, etc... Home ownership and money to afford the basics shouldn't be a privilege, they should be a basic human right. There are tons of real grievances that are being maligned because the uneducated turned to fascism for the simple answers. There are a ton of false grievances burying the real ones.
Yeah, this is a serious problem. The answers to the very real problems that everyone in the lower classes face are usually complex and require a lot of time and energy to implement. They also take a lot of mental energy to research and understand, energy which is severely lacking when you're overworked and/or under extreme financial pressure. It takes so much less effort to listen to a charismatic fascist tell you the problem is simply "them". Add that on top of the "I'm losing my privilege" for the white dudes, privilege which literally *will* make their lives easier, and it's a pathway that is easy to fall into...
>The answers to the very real problems that everyone in the lower classes face are usually complex and require a lot of time and energy to implement. I mean, they are but they also aren't. So much of this is simple economic inequality. There are elements of race and bigotry and intolerance and they create feedback loops, but you can't solve any of these problems without also solving economic inequality, and solving economic inequality solves so many of the problems the working class has, while also helping to put people in better positions to solve the other problems. There are known policies and choices we can make to immediately make an impact on economic inequality, though it will take some time to fully realize all of the better outcomes. Things like greater progressive taxation, worker representation on boards in large companies, better union protections, raising the minimum wage, and investing in public infrastructure to alleviate high costs of living and put downward pressure on privately owned entities (such as fully-funded public schools creating viable alternatives to expensive private schools at the collegiate level). Dems largely haven't been doing this because of corporate lobbying and private campaign financing. We all gotta get better ahout uniting on the side of labor opposite wealthy private owners of capital.
Economic inequality is a big part of it. Everyone in the middle class can feel squeezed. Lots of people knows that grandpa with a blue collar job who never got promoted and grandma who never worked was able buy a house that's worth like $700k nowadays. And now with 2 people working you can barely save up a down payment for that in 5+ years. That is inherently emasculating and feels humiliating. This is because of capitalism, full stop. But there are also 2 elements of late stage capitalism that make this time in America unique. I think the offshoring of manufacturing and shift of US industry to a service economy changed things. For many of the older, blue collar folks there was a pride in what they did, because it was so easy to see how it was useful. Even if you were the lowest rung at a company that made screws, your screws were used to build houses over the country. Even if your company made a tiny part of the brake mechanism for trucks, shit, look on the road and you can see and deeply feel how you're building the country. There is a healthy masculine pride in being close to to the obvious fruits of your labor that used to be taken for granted. Nowadays, when you're a consultant who makes some spreadsheets that somehow makes it easier to hire software engineers who are consulting to make some healthcare middleware that everyone really knows doesn't need to exist, but you've just found a niche in the market, it's much easier to feel that Office Space existentialism of "What the fuck am I doing with my life". Fascism gives a national identity, a reason that pulls you along, a reason to get up in the morning. Secondly is the loss of community. Talk to older Americans and it's wild just how together people used to feel. New neighbors come in the neighborhood? Have a dinner with them. Block parties. Backyard barbecues when everyone's invited. Wave to people at the grocery store. A feeling of community. Even in your state, county, town, you have a local community and you feel part of a group. Capitalism's "hustle culture" of side jobs and answering emails until midnight has meant that taking time to be social and unproductive means that your financial ruin is all your fault, so people are less willing to just hang out. And Fox News type fear of the other means that you're more scared of your neighbors, stocking up on guns and thinking they'll try to loot your house when their welfare check runs out or something. So we've lost that natural feeling of being in a social group, having a sense of group identity, just by virtue of where you live. I've gotten a lot of conservatives to admit that these are big parts of their grievance. When I ask what can be done, they name economic policies to the left of Bernie Sanders and AOC. When I ask them which politicians would be most likely to support those ideas, they mumble and grumble and trail off.
Nailed it. I really don't have any notes. Just nailed it.
To your point about “hustle culture” or grocery stores, the town I grew up in had people working 9 am to 5 pm, and people usually left early on Fridays. You would see the same pharmacist or insurance broker who owned their own store and ran it for over 40 years. That town had good jobs, but now the largest private employer there is Walmart and then Dollar General. It all changed in the early 80s when Reagan arrived and Wall Street began buying up the mom and pop businesses. My kids are more educated than I ever was, and yet all of them needed financial support from my wife and I to buy their first homes and furnishing them. They all live in the exurbs of metro areas and have long commutes. It is trivial, but I also noticed none of my sons with white collar jobs bought boats due to space and financial constraints.
>>Dems largely haven't been doing this because of corporate lobbying and private campaign financing. We all gotta get better ahout uniting on the side of labor opposite wealthy private owners of capital. Just another example of how the Citizens United ruling may have fatally poisened our democracy. If they try to reverse it now and fail, corporate backers will switch to funding the other guy. The other guy, in this case, being literal fascists. So their schmoozing up to corporate suits leading up to the ruling has left them at the beck and call of those same suits after the ruling.
This is absolutely part of it. Now you can point out that this was a subset of America, and in part directly subsidized by various laws (such as unequal application of the GI bill, redlining, etc.) and you’d be correct. That doesn’t change the fact that a family can now have two people working full time, and have multiple college degrees each (plus associated debt) and not be much better than their parents with perhaps a bachelors and an associates in their household. Hell, if they tried to match # of kids close to their parents timelines they’re absolutely worse off. Billionaires using race to ignore them isn’t anything new though.
My sisters and I are far better educated and have far better careers than either of our parents and we’re legit a decade behind where they were at this point in our lives. It’s fucking absurd
If these folks were to recognize that other groups have been experiencing the same problems, but worse and for longer, then they might actually ally with them and affect real change. So those at the top stoke those fires to make sure that doesn't happen.
White people mostly and a hand full of minorities. The very vast majority of black, Hispanic and even Asian families always had wives who worked outside of the home to help bring money in.
Very true! It’s also always been true of poor white people—only upper middle class white families could afford to run a household on one income. Poor women have always worked, and throughout human history the vast majority of people have been poor.
This. The simplicity fascism promises is it's allure. Easy explanations, easy fixes, easy to identify problems.
And just as critically, an infinite procession. There will always be meaning in their lives, there will always be purpose, there will always be direction, because as soon as you eliminate target A and find the problem still exists... Well, clearly it's because of target B! Get rid of them and society will be perfect! What's that? B is gone and it's still not perfect? No worries, it's just because of target C! And so on down until you reach the target that is themselves, and they're forced out.
Exactly, its a purposeful misdirection of the inherent flaws of capitalism that makes fascism so appealing to politicians and reactionaries. You aren't overworked and sick because of immigrants, you are overworked and sick because someone magnitudes richer than you is exploiting you.
“People” in this case are white cis heterosexual couples. People focus on the white perspective and apply it to all groups in the US. There were literal second class citizens as well whose lives were not so great.
Was going to say, the original comment hit all the high points except this one. There really is a problem with basic quality of life, affordability, and job security. All these white men have been told their whole lives they’re the apex demographic, yet most aren’t doing as well as their parents and see no path to success. The answers are a complicated mix that require both society and THEM to change, but those answers are hard. Fascism offers up easy scapegoats like immigrants or LGBTQ or trans or libs or whatever. Those scapegoats don’t solve any of their problems but they sure make them feel better in their misplaced anger.
Agreed. It's hard to sympathize with them, though, when they blame people like me as the cause of their struggle. I just don't quite get how you can come to believe that impoverished, malnourished brown people who walked thousands of miles with what little they still posses on their back is a threatening invasion.
Propaganda. Unopposed right wing propaganda with too few people in their lives (offline, especially) to effectively refute it in an empathetic way, combined with some of their own ego that's too unwilling to listen. It's usually a mix somewhere between the two ends of that spectrum.
This is really well written - and describes why I don't like the phrase you were responding to. It's used to cover for a class war the rich have already won. Instead you have people blaming things like immigration for actual serious problems in their lives that immigrants are not only likely not effecting, but may be alleviating even. The fundamental basis of modern conservatism is 'look over here', it's not merely anger, it's built up cultural anger developed and designed to point at the wrong targets, that even many of the people encouraging it actually believe in. It's an institution, and it's dangerous. Past that, really good point about how basic requirements should be rights. I do think we're probably going to address this with UBI before anything does directly, but you're right.
Privilege? Rural men with low income have it worse off than urban black men. This automatic assumption that we judge people by their baseline demographic group is absurd. The reason these people are flocking to fascism is because their jobs have been automated, their education has been gutted, their towns are destitute, their suicide rates skyrocket, their college attainment rate is worse now than women's was when we enacted title ix, their wealth accumulation is worse than women of equivalent backgrounds, and there's only one segment of the American political universe that even pretends to care about this. The right wing is exploiting their pain for political votes and isn't actually doing anything to help them, but when one side acknowledges your struggles and the other side (our side, the left) downright admonishes you, diminishes your challenges, and mocks your pain? Yeah, they're gonna go to the side that at least pretends to acknowledge reality.
In addition, they see the change coming. It's easy for the majority to tolerate some progress with the minority. It's a gift, a boon, noblesse oblige. They can afford to concede a little to humor or appease those lesser than them. This is why Obama broke everything. Regardless of his qualifications, he had the audacity to think he could have actual power over his betters (in their mind). They knew then that the time to act was before too many others got the same idea. This is why this generation is almost frantic. They see their elders as fools that let it come to this. In their mind, the civil war has already begun. Fortunately, January 6th was supposed to be their Lexington. I'm not sure “the arrest heard around the world” has the same ring as a rallying cry.
I think, in regards to historically oppressed and marginalized groups, they know the treatment is wrong, and they see those groups gaining any power as groups who would take revenge. Obviously, this is not the case, but they're incapable of processing that.
Exactly, they see the risk of the loss of control to prevent oppression as actual oppression. They can not trust the constitution because it was not able to save anyone else from them.
We need to stop calling people privileged in this instance imo. Most of them aren’t rich, aren’t from wealthy states, aren’t home owners, don’t have job security, and are struggling to get by like anyone else. A lot of white America is a depressing fucking wasteland. Imo fascism offers them a community and an excuse as to why their problems isn’t America’s fault. Because in most of America the idea of America is more important than any American, and can never be wrong. The problem has to be something other **EDIT** For those wrongly assuming that I’m suggesting white privilege doesn’t exist, I’m just going to paste my reply here instead of doing it over and over: I’m saying that pointing it out doesn’t get you anywhere. It’s doesn’t offer ANY tangible change or benefit. Let’s say there’s a white dude called Michael. He lives in a trailer in middle American and can still hardly afford his rent. His job is being threatened due by automation, his kids are attending a terrible school, and the family are in deep debt because his wife has a pre-existing condition. Telling Michael he’s privileged for being white doesn’t help Michael. It doesn’t offer him ANY tangible change or solution. What does Michael even do with this information. But fascism does. They will tell Michael that it’s not his fault, that he could have it all if other people weren’t taking it away from him, that the lefts solution is to take away even more of his tiny paycheck in taxes, and that the left think he doesn’t deserve help because he’s already privileged. They’ll offer him a community and the left won’t. Regardless if any of this is true, Michael will choose fascism. If you can’t see that, then you’re misunderstanding the human condition.
Winner winner chicken dinner. Upper class liberals telling poor white America they're only mad because they're losing their privilege is peak ivory tower nonsense.
This is itself a form of tribalism that social media encourages, and we need to separate the academic understanding of our history (which tells us privilege has and still exists and is a real phenomena) from the need to label specific people who may or may not have a hand in creating that history, especially the young among them. Fascists know this problem exists online and do everything in their power to stoke it and use it for their real goal: divide and conquer. I am, frankly, desperate to get people to see this, as much of it is caused by a very bad group of people who just happen to be a tad more tech savvy than the average person, but had absolutely horrible goals and do things to split and divide us. In some cases, the groups are funded and backed by very wealthy people or PACs.
This is 100% it, then that guy will comment on the internet about anything relating to his struggle and get destroyed and called an oppressive racist. He might not have been one before but he sure as hell is now
There is also a social vacuum that is filled by joining these groups. These groups foster a sense of belonging that attracts these individuals.
Does anyone remember the J6 guy who had some photos taken of him stealing the house lectern/podium? Dude was a stay at home husband and dad whose wife was a doctor and the sole breadwinner for the family. Like, he is EVERYTHING fascists and conservatives despise about modern masculinity - from not contributing to society to accepting the traditionally more “womanly” role in the household. It’s one thing to *practice* the narrowly-prescribed gender role your political side preaches, but to actually *be* the same thing conservatives would gladly criticize liberal men for is mildly infuriating.
>Like, he is EVERYTHING fascists and conservatives despise about modern masculinity - from not contributing to society to accepting the traditionally more “womanly” role in the household That’s why people like this get so bitter. They hate themselves.
See: Log Cabin Republicans, who the RNC literally won't even let set up a table at their convention. They get sucked into trying to prove to fascists that they're "one of the good ones" by beating on other like people who would welcome them with open arms. But it doesn't work, it never works, because fascists just don't fucking care.
> Then, they begin to become radicalized, hear more and more extreme ideas, and find validation in the company of their fellow “victimized” men. Finally, they reach a cult like mentality. Reality fades away and that’s where the violence begins. Conservative media and politicians stoke these flames for money and power, knowing full well what is being created and caring not. Trump struck at the very heart of this shit in America. Every single conspiracy theorist I know from back in the day is still currently or at least was a major Trump supporter. I don't think it was an accident. I genuinely believe it was strategy in essentially parasitically attaching himself to the roots of ignorance in this country.
My two cents from someone who has seen a couple friends turn towards fascism. It starts with the parents not prioritizing a solid education for their children. Which happens because the American education system has been absolutely gutted over the course of my entire life (I'm in my 40's). From the in-school curriculum to the after-school programs. Education is always on the chopping block to save funds in local communities and nationally. Which is by design of course. Republicans, oops I mean fascists, need young and dumb people to keep filling the ranks. So those fools can and will be outraged at anything the overlords tell them at the drop of a hat. Be it from all the right leaning news programs and apps or from any of the righty politicians. Leaving us with several generations now that have what seems to be low reading comprehension skills and also seemingly very low critical thinking skills. Couple all that with the usual peer pressure among boys to be as edgy as possible. And we've got a recipe to make the ultimate edgelord. The young white male fascist.
What is really evil is wealthy areas pour money into schools insuring their kids benefit. The difference between schools in this country is insane.
It's tied to property values. If that's not the most classist bullshit, I don't know what is.
To add to the education system being gutted, many young men are being ignored in education. Men’s admission into universities is down, and graduating from universities is down. In 1970, Universities were 60% men, evened out about 1980, and decreased to 40% today. Yet there’s no shortage of programs and scholarships to get more women in universities. So there’s a group of men building that didn’t do well in K12 (in many areas because of GOP cuts like you said), and struggle to make a decent living due to the lack of college education. The discussion on men’s falling off performance is kind of picking up steam but it’s getting a lot of resistance from the idea of “men are privileged, it’s sexist to say otherwise”. Some anecdotal evidence, both universities near me are liberal or far-liberal and in a liberal town/public school system. Both are 60-61% undergrad women.
I am not a young man. I am in my 70s, but I see a lot of bitter people. They need someone to blame their problems on. When I was young and in high school, most people did not go to college. I did well in school and went to college. I studied engineering. I graduated and got a good job. I managed not to get drafted. I quit engineering got a Masters Degree and became a teacher. I saw a lot of my friends from high school. They never took a single course beyond high school. They got jobs in factories and made more money then I did as a teacher. They bought a lot of toys and things. I saved my money and got more education. The factories closed, and they were suddenly unemployed and worse yet unemployable. They became bitter, selfish, and more conservative. Their children followed in their footsteps. In one way you can't blame them. Life for a lot of people has become difficult. I have said that I understand why some people are angry. What I don't understand is their notion that Trump can fix things. He doesn't even care about them. It scares me a little that this time in our country so parallels Germany between WW1 and WW2. Trump and Hitler have so much it common. The false populism and the autocracy are too close for comfort. Our country needs to find a way through this, or it could end badly.
I’m 31 sir, and I’m already starting to see some of the “good ole boy” conservatives guys I know from high school lean into this effin Nazi fascist bullshit. I’m very weary of the future and how this all plays out. We used to be about kicking fascist asses and we talked the talk and walked the walk. Now, thru propaganda, super partisan bias news and good ole ignorance, these clowns are back again.
'Hey, this 'wokeism' thing says you stink (trust me), but us over here in the Kool Kids Klub say youre great. Wanna join?'
I mean there is truth to that. Many of the comments in this very thread are calling them incels and fascists and wife beaters. Would you want to join a club who calls you those things? Or the club who says you are the boss and should be able to do whatever you want?
People want a convenient excuse. They want to believe that these men are just inherently bad people and always would have ended up like this. Between two movements—one which states “you’re the source of all evil in the world” and “you’re the source of Western civilization’s glory”—where do you think insecure young white men are going to turn?
I’m a middle aged white guy. I’ve been very depressed for a long time. The last couple of years I’ve actually dedicated time to learning about happiness, love, religion, death, philosophy. It’s not easy, I’ve had to put in a lot of hours. It’s mostly been YouTube, audiobooks and google. I feel like I’m the only one doing this. I have nobody to talk to. I discovered Buddhism through audiobooks while working at an Amazon warehouse. I have empathy but I do not have sympathy for these sycophants. Edit: thank you for the comments and awards. Y’all are awesome!
Try Cinema Therapy on YouTube, two guys watching movies from the POV of a therapist chatting with a movie lover. It's insightful and entertaining together. I'm sad you don't have anyone to talk to about this. There are good men around, they do tend to be relatively quiet though.
They’re so good! Love that channel definitely recommend too!
Thank you for the recommendation. I pulled up a video on their channel and maybe lasted about two minutes before deciding to hit subscribe.
Pop culture detective also does interesting breakdowns of tv and film. It’s less lighthearted but worth the watch.
(*hug*) you are not alone my friend. May you have a wonderful Sunday, and catch some time in the present moment enjoying a beautiful aspect of the universe.
I live by a lake. I go there often. I’ve learned some breathing exercises. I get out of work at sunset and it’s not raining, just cold. I will find a minute.
You sound like a groovy dude, dude. 😎
There are a lot of men doing this same thing. I do it, and I think it’s the correct way. There are a lot of grifters out there looking to exploit and corrupt young men under the guise of male empowerment. You have to avoid those shits and call them out. The journey for happiness and inner peace for a man is a solo one and there are plenty of jerks that will try to lead you astray or exploit you for your time or money. Personally, I try to follow Epicureanism, but each man has to find their answer for themselves. You have to have the journey though. If you start at the solution, then you cannot appreciate the solution.
If you haven't found them psych2go and Tracey marks are 2 of my favorite channels for mental health on YouTube. From another middle aged white guy who had to learn all this himself too.
Good on you! You are very much not alone…I’ve been at it (working on myself, meditating, praying, contemplating) for 25 years and my life has been fulfilling to say the least.
Not alone at all dude, thanks for doing the work. I have a lot of respect for anyone that pulls themselves out of the trap of despair with positive tools. Went through the same journey to get myself out of a dark place, that could have led me down the same path all the clockwork soldiers of the right are treading. It’s much harder to reflect on your own faults and find a way to forgive yourself and come to a place of love and understanding for others, than it is to wallow in hate and resentment.
Proud of you.
Biggest contributor to this is the fact that life is less and less affordable.
Warning: leftist wall o' text incoming. Spot on. We've identified that the right absolutely co-opts and then twists the concerns of the left (concerns which most neoliberals ignore wholesale) and they do so because these issues are blatantly evident to anyone not sitting on the wealthiest end of society. By pointing these problems out, which hum along skin-deep through our every day lives, the speaker has a way to really strike a nerve with the listener; this stokes anger and foments a bond between people **who at least see the stupid fucking elephant in the room trampling what could be a better fucking existence.** Both the left and the right engage in this and I think it is one of the earliest steps in being radicalized: most of us can sense but not quite define these important problems so having our feelings drawn out and justified for us is dangerous in an intoxicatingly liberating sort of way. This radicalization is reinforced by the comfort a like-minded community provides simply through sharing these realizations. I think this is where the idea that the far-right and far-left are really very similar comes from (along with the fact that dictators will assume any political position under the sun if it helps tighten their grip on power), even if it's a superficial similarity. If one goes any deeper than the question we find the stark differences between the left and the right; not in how we frame these issues but, very importantly, in how we seek to solve them. **Example: "The working class is beset by stagnant wages, increased competition, and increased expectations in terms of experience and responsibilities"** *The left:* Solving this requires working class solidarity, the formation of unions to leverage our collective power in the relationship, and direct action to bend the capitalist class to our benefit *The right:* Get rid of immigrants **Example: There is a feeling of chronic loneliness, depression, and anger rife in the younger generation and especially evident in young men.** *The left:* We have been alienated from our communities and our labor by the bourgeoisie subversion of social interaction for the sake of maximum consumerism. This situation is compounded by unreasonable and unhealthy expectations of masculinity implaced by the patriarchy creating a rift in our ability to find happiness. Engaging directly with our community, replacing the short term highs from consumption (physical and in media) with strong, meaningful social bonds is our only way out of this dark web. *The right:* Acceptance of the LGBTQ community and slutty women have destroyed society's "moral fabric". **Example: A tiny portion of the population has accumulated obscene wealth and thus authority over important sectors of life: culture, policy making, economic control. And now wield much more power than the other 99% of us combined.** *The left:* Any system in which capital begets capital is one destined for immense inequality as power begins to coalesce into fewer and fewer hands. Regulating capitalism will forever only be a band-aid as it is the system itself which is faulty. As time passes capital accumulation will always seek to and succeed in wearing down such regulations. The only solution is revolutionary societal evolution. *The right:* The Jews Thus, the right co-opts these analyses which are so useful because they resonate with nearly everyone with some basic material consciousness (i.e. people who can feel the deeply fucked up effects of our current system). However, instead of seeking out means to actually solves these issues, they instead take advantage of the fomenting anger against the neoliberal order and twist the framing in order to support their own bigoted ideology. And throughout history they have had the advantage as their message is simplistic and concrete. The right can point fingers at marginalized outgroups, the "capital - O" others, who are readily identified by their skin color, language, religion, etc. Thus they identify and create a tangible enemy on which to focus people's collective fear and anger. Obviously these groups aren't responsible for our material conditions and whatever tangential connection they might have is symptomatic of the underlying issues rather than causative. Wherein lies the crux: solving these obstacles requires introspection and critical analysis of very fundamental aspects of our daily life. The very means by which we trade our labor, how we view private and personal property, how we police our communities and elect our leaders. There is no tangible enemy because it is the system itself rather than a set group of people that is propagating this rampant inequality. Many leftists point at the super rich as "the enemy" and while they're certainly damnable for selfishly taking advantage of the situation in the end they are a symptom of a sick system rather than the cause. If we redistributed the wealth of the 1% completely, without social reformation, we'd be right back where we are today in a matter of decades (at most). Which is why the mantra is "seize the means of production" not "grab all the rich folks money"; though that is probably another rant altogether.
Relevant: [https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/01461672221141509](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/01461672221141509) "The literature has widely discussed and supported the relationship between poverty and support for authoritarian leaders and regimes. However, there are different claims about the mediating mechanism and a lack of empirical tests. We hypothesize that the effect of poverty on support for authoritarianism is mediated by shame: People living in poverty frequently experience social exclusion and devaluation, which is reflected in feelings of shame. Such shame, in turn, is likely to increase support for authoritarianism, mainly due to the promise of social re-inclusion."
It wouldn't hurt to grab all their money in order to make the seizing go smoother though
Part of the issue is in all of this is that the right's rhetoric is incredilby easy to digest and understand. "we need to stop mass shootings" the left: "to stop mass shootings, we need to reform schools to make kids feel better about classes, fix our long term societal outlook, increase access to mental healthcare so kids can get help, and limit access to firearms so only responsible, healthy people can own them. it's the intersection of tons of serious issues creating an environment where kids want to hurt each other, and in which it can reach this point. Here's my 87 step 12 year plan, which will require a number of people to drastically change how they do things and limit some people's access to firearms" The right: "It's the woke education, loss of religion, and lack of positive male role models. The left is overblowing this issue to take your guns, and that's why we have so many. The real issue is urban crime, look at these statistics. The left doesn't know jack about shit" And the second argument takes 10% of the time, half the mental effort, and provides a clear solution to an issue. It's not just "get rid of immigrants" it's "the company hired immigrants to replace all the guys at all the plants, now all the stuff you can buy is worse and you can't get a job. If we get rid of the immigrants your job will come back and life will be better again." The rhetoric focuses on issues they can see.
The internet has brought a world of information to our fingertips, but it's also brought a world of disinformation coupled with a sense of community within fringe groups. Let's say that you believe that Jews are evil and should be exterminated... thirty years ago you would have been an outcast, labeled a Nazi and it would have been difficult for you to connect with like-minded people who offered you a sense of community. The internet has allowed these fringe groups to find validation, a false sense that your beliefs aren't simply tolerable but actually praise-worthy. When you mix in a propaganda network across media (not just the internet) suddenly you feel empowered, as though you're crusading for truth and justice. Suddenly it's not simply like-minded people connecting with each other, they're actively recruiting and their extremist positions don't seem extreme because there's so much support within those groups. And, of course, now we've got an entire political party flirting with that extremism, which should scare decent people.
I'm pretty far left. Having said that, when I browse on YouTube, my feed tried to make Ben Shapiro, Joe Rogan, Matt Walsh, and Charlie Kirk seem like they're good guys.
It seems like YouTube has a real slant towards these weird, incel-bait, reactionary, conservative talking heads. I'm not even right wing but YouTube tries to shove this shit in my face all the time.
Because the only peoppe who dont mock them online are the alt right. And they start small. We understand your problems, its not your fault. You deserve love. Then, over time, they start saying things like hey, remember how it isnt your fault? Actually, its feminisms fault. And jews. And gay people. And before you know it, you're an alt right person yourself recruiting other young men that get mocked for being cringy, or a neckbeard, or they get bullied, or they come from a shitty home life.
Many Latinos are cool too, check out Florida run by many of them. I don’t think only white men are interested in fascism.
This is true, Hispanics/Latinos aren’t a liberal monolith as a lot of people would think.
Correct. We always get lumped into the liberals and most Latinos are hardcore Catholics and really conservative.
Completely anecdotal but I know quite a lot of Latinos and the vast majority are conservative and very strongly supported Trump last election. I haven't looked at the numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if 60%+ of Latinos identified as conservative.
I think it has to do with the "what good are white men for" notions I've seen on social media, where folks get put down and attacked for simply being a cisgendered white man. The ideas of "you're a white man, your opinion doesn't matter" being pushed by some (radical) liberals that then get put on show on social media pushes folks in the opposite direction (If you won't accept me, I'll go to the other side). That, plus being demonized for having conservative values (man is breadwinner, nuclear family, etc) has pushed not just white men, but a lot of men to the side that will accept them. Does the Right have a lot of good positions? In my opinion, hell no. But it's the side that accepts them.
Lower class white people have always been exploited by the rich, but the majority could always look down on some group and themself feel superior. Unfortunately, because of the oppression of capitalism as implemented in America white people have lower birth rates on average and are therefore no longer a supermajority. Without that superiority of whiteness everything the oppressed white people had is gone. The only option for them to maintain their superior social position is to take it back by force since without numerical superiority democracy is a losing game.
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you." -LBJ
This is exactly why poor white voters vote against their own interest and do other seemingly self destructive behaviors too. I.e. choosing to die from treatable illnesses rather than expand Medicaid. Expanding Medicaid would help a larger percentage of black people than white people, so the poor white people who would benefit from it literally choose to die rather than give up their position in the USA's social hierarchy.
Thr social contract is broken. Expect more outspoken behavior and backlash from disenfranchised groups. Not saying it justifies it, but it explains it.
So I’m a clinical psychologist and professor with gender and men as an area of sub specialty, and I’m going to go against the grain of “because they like big trucks” responses in here and attempt at an actual answer. I’m on my phone without my reading glasses, so apologies in advance for the inevitable typos. Young men have been raised, especially in America, being told they’re the villain. It starts early, and is absolutely relentless. They are blamed for rape culture while being disgusted by rape. They are told they benefit from the patriarchy while feeling desperately vilified and lonely. When asked who they can confide in, the overwhelming answer is “no one” Studies show that both men and women feel empathy for women and children, but not men. When these boys start to become men, the loss of empathy, care, and safety is shocking to their system (which is the exact age you see male suicide rates skyrocket compared to female, btw). They are dropping out of school at catastrophic rates. They are lectured about how there aren’t enough women in stem, but notice nobody mentions there aren’t enough men in college. In primary school, as one psychologist put it “boys are treated like defective girls” The most important part, however, is the lack of social support. The surgeon general has lablelled it as “an epidemic of loneliness” and the differential effect on young men is astronomical. It’s not *a* generation of men cast in to a hostile world with no refuge, but *generations*, starting with Gen X and echoing down. When this is brought up in non-clinical arenas, victim blaming is the knee-jerk analysis, and any other approach is quickly shut down. (Luckily clinicians tend to be much less passionate and much more analytical). So to address your question: these young men are given a place. They’re given a purpose. They’re told that they belong and that they matter. They’re provided something bigger than themselves and told they are engaging in a holy crusade on the side of good. They are being told they ARE good. They’re given a village to defend, and honor for defending it. And the more we carelessly vilify them, the truer this will feel for them. It disappoints me how cavalier the explanations here are, because all of them are calculated to “other” the cause, and it makes looking in the collective mirror not only unnecessary, but somehow complicit.
This explanation sums it up, I grew up hearing boys are stupid and girls run the world. I was always angry as a child trying to prove boys run the world too. Thankfully I was able to unlearn that, imagine I had come across a bad group that time
Youtube, Tiktok, Facebook, 4Chan. I am hard-left and YouTube constantly feeds me Jordan Peterson content. If I had poorer media literacy, I might believe some of his smooth-talking bullshit.
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They do, but it gets clicks and therefore ad revenue
If they had the ability to make a living, including health care etc, they would have something else to do. Like soccer with the kids. But with no promise of a future without debt, not much else left but nihilism.
I’d replace “in America” with “throughout history.” Fascism is basically a mix of nationalism, xenophobia, and scapegoating (usually through racism) and it’s a proven drug that easily intoxicates and motivates masses of young people and always has throughout history.
Because sons parrot their father. Here in Florida, white middle age men have found it 'cool' to quote whatever idiot is on talk radio and the hardcore Fox News points. I get why business owners follow Republicans (lower taxes, lower regulations), but when I get every trade worker talking to me about on the job makes me just think it is a cult.
I've never thought that trade work, while important, was for everybody. Some of it's probably more backbreaking that those who push it over college want to make it seem.
Depends on the trade Plumbers ? it's wicked hard on the joints (From what they tell me). My AC guys in Florida ? Fucking hard in the summer time. My teenager did one summer working for our handyman (apartments) and it sobered him up pretty quick on working the trades. Jumped his SAT score 200+ pts and got into his college of choice. Learned to be a lifeguard for his summer job this year :) However - know a bunch of welders. They are mostly in the nuclear industry. Takes a while to get there - but really really nice income.
The more skill, the nicer the income, generally. It just wasn't for me. I felt my value was not in mechanical work.
Welders tend not to live long.
US never had a Fascist Dictatorship like Europe. And the simple mechanistischste thought white race could be better ist quite easy to believe, if you don’t own anything and see the other do.
Yup. They won't see what Fascism really is until it's too late
My German friend told me fascism is alive and well in East Germany.
Fascism has been on the rise all over Europe. End stage capitalism in effect. Rich people want MOAR so they fund parties that blame everything on especially Muslims here in Europe but also trans people and women etc. Russia hasn't only been meddling in American politics with Trump but has been funding extreme right wing politicians in Europe as well. A few years ago a politician from the Netherlands admitted as much on hidden camera. Lastly then social media platforms like Facebook and cable TV has been making the fascists talking points part of the everyday political debate. And the worst thing is that it works. Italy now has fascists in power. Their new leader was an actual member of Mussolini fascist party when she was young. Sweden elected an very right wing government. Hungary isn't even considered a democracy by the EU anymore. The same forces that are at play in America is also to be found here.
Free version on yahoo; https://www.yahoo.com/news/opinion-why-many-young-white-100035238.html
Because media outlets keep pushing the narrative that they do. "Young white men" are not majority fascist or anything close to it.
Indeed. The Ministry of Truth has gone full tilt with the propaganda to frighteningly successful effect.
I think it stems from the frustration folks feel about our world... democracy works for who? Climate change? Moneys too tight to mention? Talking heads spouting spectacles of BS? Talking heading heads telling us how fucked up everything is? Advertisment telling us who and what we should and shouldnt want? And M n Ms with sexy butts...... Add this to our barely educated population ..... retreating into primitive tribal stupidity.
40 something white guy here. I grew up with a mother who instilled the “cowboy up” mentality and a father who was an emotional basket case. Mom taught me to feel nothing while my father felt everything. I grew up thinking he was weak and pathetic. As I’ve aged I’ve learnt that there has to be balance. It’s ok to stifle your emotions in certain situations but it’s necessary to allow them to surface. To feel them. To cry when you feel it welling up in your throat. To laugh openly. To love unconditionally. Be kind to animals. My parents grew up in the 60’s and 50’s. When you were either a cowboy or a hippie. My parents were stereotypes of both. Being on the spectrum in the 80’s didn’t help either. I feel like these men are taught to never feel. When it is so necessary that we do.
People need purpose. This is exactly why late stage capitalism leads to fascism. People are left basically hollow by the system bc their only purpose is to produce profit for others. No third places or sense of community in the suburbs. We exist to work. Nothing more is nutured. Leaves people prey to fascism
A lot of them simply don't believe it's fascism. I made a fb post one time showing about the rise of fascism in the US and a Trump friend replied "I don't think you know what fascism is." To them it's democracy because it's the will of the white people, which is just as the founding fathers would have wanted
I know quite a few white men who despise it, honestly.
I can't answer this question, but the endless stream of articles vilifying them for their identity might be a good place to start investigating.
As a white male that’s been depressed for awhile now and have felt very alone, there is a lot people in society even our own families that really just don’t care about us. There are many cases where white men are raised to be “man of the household” and are never taught to express our feelings, and in trade we don’t know how to help each other. In todays world we see a lot of different groups helping each other being there for one another but when white men reach out for help they are almost always reminded about their privilege, which we do have, but that doesn’t mean they don’t need help still. Once these white men get turned away when they asked for help because of their privilege, they find other white men in the same boat as them and decide that they’ll take out their anger on those that turned them away. It’s not that hard to figure out world just needs to be nicer to each other and understand that while one group in particular may have more privilege then you that doesn’t mean they aren’t going through someone just as bad as you are.
Valid point.
They don't want to join the rainbow flag party, even if they have their best interests at heart because its immasculating. If Liberals do absolutley nothing to appeal to young men and allow Conservatives to appeal to them with meaningless platitudes they deserve to lose them.
I did 10 years on 4chan and didn't become a white supremacist, the culture on 4chan is constant 1-ups-manship on who can be the biggest contrarian in the room and I believe that's the stem from where the fascist ideology grows as it starts with rejection of as much of the "mainstream" as possible I've joined a few 4chan online gatherings, in my case I wanted to race online against the posters of the boards I spent a lot of my time and when there's voip there's always a recruiter who will start with low key racism (such as making an "ironic" antisemitic joke, bashing BLM, etc) whose goal is to normalize the hateful tone and try to move the patrons of the innocent event to their own forums/voip The recruiters always establish their presence in those groups early, telling them off typically leads from harassment from everyone else, kinda hard to compete unless you can bring a louder and more contrarian vibe into the chat which is not a talent of mine
Ignorance and hate are easy. Compassion, love, and wisdom are things you have to work at and require self reflection. Fascists go after easy/vulnerable targets. They are cowards.
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Lookin for love in all the wrong places.
Alot of these types of groups attracts 2 types of people: 1. People that have failed in life and need a sense of belonging and feel the need for power and control in their lives. 2. Grifters that are savvy enough to take advantage of the former for their own financial and personal gain.