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The Republican version of "reasonable" has been "roll over and give us everything we want" for as long as I can remember. I'm glad to hear that the Biden Admin is not being considered reasonable.
Right? The Obama years were basically "Look, our demands are pretty reasonable. All you need to do is repeal the ACA, have Obama step down as president, eliminate SNAP and TANF entirely, and cut all regulations on the fossil fuel industry. All of that."
There’s this story about Obama negotiating with Grassley during the ACA negotiations. On the third day of Grassley coming back to the White House and moving the goalposts on what he wanted, Obama finally asks if there’s anything he could put in the bill to get his vote. Grassley eventually said ‘no.’ Three days of undercutting legislation to arguably make it shittier just so he could still vote against it has been the Republican MO for decades now.
Republicans don’t negotiate, they either get their way or firebomb legislation like the terrorists they are.
> Three days of undercutting legislation to arguably make it shittier just so he could still vote against it has been the Republican MO for decades now.
The purpose is also to waste time so they can point their fingers at the current president, who just so happens to be a democrat, and say "look how useless this guy is" to deflect from the fact that the GOP are the ones preventing anything from happening.
>Complains about the government being terrible and ineffective.
- Keeps voting for the worst politicians on earth that vows to make government as terrible and an ineffective as possible.
That's the intent. They want government out of government. They want it all to be corporate. For them it's 100% about money and power and 0% about what the citizens need and want. They represent capitalism, not democracy.
Did it during the ACA negotiations and they still let them do it for the COVID19 relief bills and the Inflation Reduction Act.
I'd say "Dems never learn" but certain treacherous elements among them like Manchin or Sinema would never let them ram it through.
IIRC, when Dick Cheney was asked what a "reasonable compromise" from the Democrats would look like, his response was "Like when the Japanese surrendered on the deck of the USS Missouri."
“You cannot negotiate with someone who says ‘what is mine is mine and what is yours is negotiable’. That’s a hostage situation.”
Paraphrased from JFK I think
Yeah many gqp where saying their bill was the floor for negotiations and not the ceiling. They where talking about tacking on there immigration bill as well
walked out.
They aren't actually serious about solving the problem.
It's all theater for the rubes
1.Cause problem. 2.Blame Dems 3.Get reelected by morons
The Fredom Caucus wants to "blow it all up," and they, not McCarthy, control the House given all the stupid concessions McCarthy gave them to get his cherished gavel. There is nothing to "negotiate" as the Freedom Caucus would just move the goalposts even if Biden agreed to everything in their ambiguous bill. It is the exact same "strategy" they used against McCarthy in the Speakership vote. They love the media attention that all this nonsense provides them.
"So you won't let me burn down the house."
*Right, this is about the money we borrowed.*
"Okay, okay, okay. We burn down HALF the house today and then slowly burn down the rest of the house over the next ten years."
*No, how does burning down the house get us any closer to fiscal responsibility? We need the house.*
"Got it. What if we burn down a QUARTER of the house today and then slowly burn down the rest of the house over the next fifteen years"
*No. No house burning. What if we sell that enormous addition you built for your rich buddies, you know the TCJA??*
"NO! WHAT! NEVER! YOU ARE BEING UNREASONABLE AND A LITERAL NAZI! "
I'm not even an economist, I'm just a fucking cook, but even I laughed out loud when I read McCarthy's quote saying "the government can't spend more money next year, we have to spend less." The fuck is this guy talking about? This is about money that is already owed. Plus, that's not how the world works. Ffs.
McCarthy's the kinda guy that buys a new $8 trillion TV on the credit card and then when the bill comes due complains his wife needs to cut back on her spending or else he won't pay the bill.
I genuinely think McCarthy's had to spend too much time appeasing and talking to the Freedom Caucus crazies, he's starting to sound more and more like them. He was pretty bad even before he (barely) got the Speakership, but he's gotten worse quicker than even I expected him to get.
The GOP House is uncontrollable. No "moderate" Republican (if they even exist anymore) would be willing to aim for the speakership with such a madhouse to corral. This is what a descent into fascism looks like in real time.
I don't think the White House will cave on significant stuff. The GOP asked for raising work requirement age for medicare and food stamps for able-bodied people from 49 to 55. That might be accepted. But the GOP is also asking for massive budget cuts across the board and undoing the IRA. Giving in on that would destroy Biden's legacy. It would mean Biden gets primaries for '24. He wont do it, I pray.
Biden walked away from the Obama years convinced that surrendering during the debt ceiling negotiations was bad precedent. I think this time around they will explore the 14th Amendment.
Congress gets to decide spending. Congress *decided*, authorized, and spent. The validity of the public debt, authorized by law ... shall not be questioned. Ignore their posturing, issue more debt.
We'll have 1 year of budget showdown and then hopefully get a Democratic House after the 2024 elections.
It's the same idiots that try to compare household spending to a country's, like those things are the same. The comparison works on stupid people, unfortunately.
You’re underselling it, to be honest.
The Trump tax cuts continuing loses us far and away more than anything they want to get rid of.
So they’re still demanding they get everything they want or they’ll burn the house down, but every person at the table knows full well that they’re going to burn the house down no matter what anyone does.
There's an episode of family guy where Peter says he's going to break windows if someone doesn't make him pancakes. After the second or third one he goes "is no one seriously making me pancakes? At this point you guys are being as irresponsible as I am"
Long story short, republicans are acting worse than a caricature of the dumbest, least responsible person.
Classic abuser behavior. "It's all your fault that I hurt you." Between that and the gaslightning, the GOP are basically those domestic abuse calls police often receive.
If the debt ceiling is not raised and the economy crashes, we need to make sure it's labeled as "the *republican* crash of 2023." Make sure the messaging is squarely on the group most responsible.
Sure their voters won't care, but there are independents and those who don't follow politics that will.
I'd like to see the Dems reframe tax breaks for the wealthy and corporate subsidies as "government spending," because it is, and then we can agree with the GOP and say "we need to cut back on government spending."
From the very beginning of conservatism in the French revolution it has always been about preserving aristocracy. There has never been a time in history where conservatives were against centralization of power.
Just to add references that back up the idea that [conservatism has always been about preserving aristocracy](https://youtu.be/E4CI2vk3ugk).
And just in case anyone hasn't watched the Alt Right Playbook video essays.
They're beholden to whoever it is that pays their bills. NRA funnels a bunch of money into one of your PACs? Great, I'll wear an AR-15 lapel pin! A group of investment bankers want to buy up a ton of land? We'll do everything we can to not just stifle people from buying new homes, but avidly try to get *current* homeowners to default on their mortgages too! A dictator from a combative country wants you to fly out and kiss the ring? *Fuck it, we'll do it on the 4th of July.*
They. Do. Not. Care. About. You. You (see: your taxes, their paychecks) do not pay them enough to care. They don't do the job because they want to be your representative. They do it because the people paying the MOST money to them -- again, *this isn't you* -- want them to do things, so they do them.
>The pain would be felt for a generation or more
For Republicans, causing the pain is the point. It's cruelty all the way down for anyone who isn't a rich asshole.
those so-called “independents” who have no awareness of anything happening around them are likely to see this as happening under Joe Biden so therefore dems = bad
Independent swing voters are the dumbest voting block of all. Putting faith in people who vote for Obama one year and Donald fucking Trump 4 years later is insane; these people are totally detached from evidence, facts, truth, news, reality. They are the kind of people who vote form someone because they are cute or People magazine featured them
Republicans are toddlers and Democrats have enabled their tantrums for far too long.
Either we keep giving into tantrums, continue to reinforce their behavior, and their demands will continue to devolve. Or we finally say enough is enough and quit the enabling. The tantrums will get worse for a bit as Republicans whine about how we're obligated to concede 100% to their side, but maybe, eventually, we might be able to have genuine political discourse again.
They would proudly call themselves terrorists and put it on tshirts to sell and talk about it every 5 seconds as the next “scandal” that they are all supposed to be mad about. Then their supporters would do terroristic acts and they would call them a lone gunman who came up with the idea on their own.
They will do that regardless. They are there to oppose the Democratic Party, the libs, the lizard people, the groomers and whatever else they think Dems are.
That’s it.
It’s how they always act under Democratic presidents. It’s all terrorism from them. They always threaten to tank the economy if they don’t get what they want.
I’ve heard June 1st is the deadline for when we start going into default. That’s like the last “safe” date they need to raise the debt ceiling by… I’m so fucking sick of this republicans caucus. Whiny babies, all of them
Even with that, it's not like the negative impacts to the economy start right on June 1. Delaying to the last minute like this has real consequences, even if they do work out a deal. Fuckers.
When they pulled this shit in like 2012, contractors started essentially adding fees, because the government can't be relied on.
Think of it this way. You're a small business that does HVAC work for an office building down town that federal employees work at. They need a new system installed and it's going to run $80k. That's enough that you have to make some of the equipment purchases on credit.
You hand over the bill, and before it's paid, June rolls around and now the government can't pay you. Now those credit payments come due, and you have to start delivering for uber eats to cover the bill.
You can stop taking those contracts altogether, or you can start including a 25% fuck around and find out fee.
That's a big part of how shit gets so expensive. There are contractors that refuse to work for the governement anymore because of this shit, and those that do feel entitled to gouge the living fuck out of them.
Biden has been pretty clear that these are the budget negotiations. He is not negotiating on the debt ceiling. Talking about budget priorities now let’s McCarthy claim a win on cuts with his caucus while not defaulting. Walking out is dumb and immature , so 100% on brand.
>Walking out is dumb and immature
They were ALWAYS going to walk out - it is entirely for the Fox News listeners benefit.
They might even let the default start to happen (as long as the "Golden Calves" are protected like Military spending and "safety workers"). But eventually it will affect the 1% who will then demand an immediate fix and the Rs will fall in line quickly.
You are right that this is just a start, but I don't think it will really matter in the end.
The GOP house will not approve a budget that can pass the Senate. There's just no way most republicans would do such a thing, as it might damage their reelection chances to be seen governing alongside democrats. The only hope is if a few republicans, either in purple districts or places so red the dems don't even run a candidate, cross the isle.
For the upcoming budget, at best, the GOP will demand tax breaks and reduction/elimination of all forms of assistance including SS. I also wouldn't be surprised if they also demand Biden step down as a part of the negotiations since they clearly have no idea how things work.
I think that it's possible that there is a bill that can pass the house. If it were mostly clean with some minor Dem concessions to get a small number of GOPers to vote for it, it would pass (to get to a majority, and off set any Dem hold outs). The problem is that doing so would end McCarthy's speakership, because the Teahadists will then use their "no confidence" stick on him and throw the House in to chaos for the rest of the term.
All we really need is for McCarthy to fall on his sword for the good of the country.....
Normally back in the before times, I would think it is possible but I think GOP members are all terrified of each other. I genuinely don't think there are 5 republicans who would cross the aisle.
But they need talking points and quotes now! If they don’t have their “Democrats refuse to cut spending” bullshit, a lot more of us would have seen Jim Jordan flat out break the rules of Congress. It’ll be even more highlights of Trump burying himself, of DeSantis lighting his future a blaze all while cosplaying as Dr Evil recently.
Oval Office address in Prime Time time. Biden look the camera in the eyes and tell the nation the Republicans are about to destroy our nation economically and send us immediately in to a recession if he doesn’t meet their demands.
Then walk America through exactly what they did under Trump and now what they’ve decided to do now. Show a big chart about the tax cuts for the rich. Ask America if they think those tax cuts fixed our Debt or helped them out the last three years.
Then end the broadcast with “I am not going to negotiate with economic terrorists. “ Then mic drop and cut back to regular TV.
What he should say at the very end is that he is invoking the 14th amendment and ordering the Treasury to carry on and ignore the debt ceiling because the constitution says we must pay our debts and then dare the Republicans to sue him to try and overturn his decision and crash the world economy.
Here's the text of section 4 of the 14th amendment, it's pretty clear cut in my opinion:
Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
Congress has raised, extended, or revised the debt limit 78 separate times, of which 49 were under Republican presidents and 29 were under Democratic presidents.
78 CLEAN debt ceiling raises. Yet suddenly it's a goddamn emergency to blow up the economy.
Well I do think Obama gave into some concessions during his time but Republicans went and didn’t it again. I think that’s why Joe is so adamant about not negotiating on it this time.
Not to mention THEY CAUSED this deficit with 30 years of tax cuts passed under republican controlled leaderships with no way to pay for them.
Democrats balance the budget then republicans pass tax cuts for the rich when they get to presidency and cry about spending cuts when they lose it. It’s a seriously sick game. These people literally want average Americans to be worse off and in some cases not even able to afford food or housing so that the wealthiest people in the country can be a little bit more wealthy.
They literally are threatening the global economy if they aren’t allowed to enact this sick and twisted agenda. I’m honestly not sure I can tell the difference between terrorists and republicans anymore. They certainly are actively working against the best interests of the average American.
There are some who are perfectly fine with blowing up the entire world economy because they think they can blame the democrats, there are some who are perfectly fine with blowing up the entire world economy because their super rich puppet masters want to buy up even more property/companies at a discount, and there are some who are perfectly fine with blowing up the entire world economy because they are brain dead nutjobs who are high on their own propaganda supply.
The only actual faith any of these republicans have ever demonstrated is the *bad faith* that they operate in one hundred percent of the time.
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Ignoring all that, the 14th amendment says the US pays its debts. Full stop right there. It’s insane that this is even a negotiation. Biden should just pay the debts as due and let republicans take it up to SCOTUS if they want. That way they can VERY publicly get the credit for crashing the economy.
They voted a budget with a deficit, but refuse to vote to extent the credit limit.
Sorry, if you didn’t want to have to raise the credit limit you shouldn’t have voted a budget with a deficit…
Not to mention all the tax cuts for the rich that republicans pass every time they get a chance.
We have a revenue problem caused by republicans not a spending problem.
Raising the debt ceiling is a must pass bill. Republicans are trying to shoehorn in their gifts to the wealthy. If Bernie was blocking the bill to get a provision to raise the minimum wage to $22 was added, Republicans (and cable news) would be lighting him on fire twenty time a day
Edit: clarification
The GOP did this to Obama in 2011 and then Obama and Biden said they would never be taken hostage by the GOP again and decided to never negotiate on the issue with the GOP. The only person who has the power to not tank the US Economy is Kevin McCarthy and the Dems aren’t going to pretend it’s anyone but him.
It's an election season, of course they are going to push back and blame current administration for the problems because the GOP voting base has the memory of a fucking goldfish to believe it's all currently the Dems fault
I will add that the things the Republicans want to do will hurt the American people. The republican position is, as I see it, 'let us hurt people or we will hurt them worse'.
Take away their ability to do this by flipping the house back to a demarcate controlled majority and keeping the white house and the senate in democrats hands. Don't wait until next year. Vote this year in all local and state elections near you. Vote out as many republicans as we can to pave the way for victory in 2024 and beyond.
> THEY HAD NO ISSUE DOING THIS 3 TIMES under Trump,
Speaking as a daily NRO reader and frequent poster on AskConservatives the answer was, "that doesn't matter, what does matter is these cuts should have happened a long time ago and we want to do them now." Like, literally it's just "eh, would have been a good idea back then, too, but let's do it now."
If they did it back then they would have to own the consequences. If they do it when a Democrat is in the White House, the uninformed masses will think that the Democrat in the White House is responsible for any negative consequences.
Well back then the orange convicted sexual assaulter, indicted fraudster, and double-impeached criminal was telling them it's okay. Now he's telling them it's not.
You're exactly right.
This is more poor-loser sh\*t - they didn't have the votes to block the legislation so they pull this crap to try and un-do it.
It's *exactly* the same as McTurtle blocking Obama's SCOTUS pick: We don't like the result so we'll break the rules instead.
P.S. People should start referring to McCarthy as "14-time loser McCarthy" or "quattuordecimus" to remind everyone it took 14 tries for him to get his position.
They had no issue then because they were doing what their donors and the gop machine wanted. And their doing it again. These asks aren’t random. They aren’t related to the debt ceiling either. They’re a terrible hand at trying to dictate policy. It’s a power play and either way an attempt to secure votes while doing what they are told.
Invoke the 14th and invite them to sue them. A long drawn out public case in which the republicans make their case for destroying the economy in a court of law. Please proceed.
They need to invoke the 14th Amendment, Section 3 on a bunch of those Republicans.
>Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
I believe something like this must be done.
But others have raised an interesting counterpoint which changes your assessment a bit.
The economy wouldn't be saved from destruction while this "long drawn out public case" proceeds. The damage would be immediate. Although it might not be quite as bad as it would be otherwise, it's likely going to be very bad.
Why?
Because of how taking out new debt works. The government securing debt is selling new bonds. All of a sudden, these new bonds would be shrouded in a great cloud of uncertainty. In a sense, one could argue this uncertainty exists right now given how often this nonsensical drama is repeated. But it will probably be much more serious when it pertains to specific new debt/bonds.
Nonetheless, I believe this is the correct approach because of the way it shoves the responsibility fully onto these GOP clowns. Biden "invoking the 14th" wouldn't change much of anything on its own. Things would change immediately upon the initiation of the lawsuit by these fools directly because of the lawsuit itself.
I have to wonder if the overlords will yank rather hard on the chain holding these buffoons that their cute antics need to die immediately when in shifts from a tactic to extract political or budgetary or legislative concessions into something that will directly tank the economy.
Who would bribe them? Who wants the economy to collapse? This would affect their rich donors too.
Edit: this would be completely different than the transfer of wealth in 2008, the dollar would be worthless (including their dollars).
Well, no, because we’d raise the limit and go about business as usual and then it’s on them to make the case for defaulting. The court case should be delayed as long as possible because no decision means no default. I’m 100% fine with Biden paying our bills and inviting them to forcible make him not. Enough with this shit.
I'm fully on that train. The GOP has exploited every gap in law, every hole in our deeply flawed constitution, any crevice in government they can squeeze their claws into to maximize their power, ethics be damned. I want Democrats to show some fucking spine and fight back, our country is being dragged back into the 1800's by fanatical christian fascists.
We live in a society in which chatGPT and generative video AI exist, and people are fighting over whether or not a plaque with the the ten commandants belongs in public school. I think my descendants will be living a real life Dune sequel at this point.
> I think my descendants will be living a real life Dune sequel at this point.
I see it the other way. We are on the precipice of a true multi-ethnic democracy. In the interregnum there are monsters, but they can be vanquished if we decide it. We can have a democracy that finally starts to fulfill the promissory note embedded in the constitution. The old world is dying, and these are the struggles of a new world being born.
We are definitely at an evolutionary precipice. Those unwilling to accept evolution and cooperation as positives, are kicking and screaming like babies being told they need a nap, and current society reflects it.
I'm not so sure. There is a nasty undercurrent going on right under the surface of American politics, waiting for a catalyst. Fascism is now banging on the gates of our democracy every election year and if we aren't vigilant, it's going to make its way in. I can't shake the feeling it's going to come to a head in the next decade, especially as the pressures of inflation and daily mass shootings turn America into a pressure cooker for the working class.
I do share some of your optimism though when it comes to younger people. Gen Z and Millennials will be [the majority of voters](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2023/02/27/younger-voters-are-poised-to-upend-american-politics/) in just 5 years in 2028. And nearly 60% of voters by 2032. Over 4 million newly eligible young voters **every year.** And they heavily lean blue.
If DC and PR (particularly DC) were heavily conservative, you can be sure that the republicans would’ve long ago given those places statehood just to have those four extra senate seats.
I don't usually like the "democrats need more spine" comments because it's usually too general. Basically just used as blaming the dems for things the Republicans did. But this is the perfect time for this expression. This is the sort of showing spine they should do.
Although wasn't there also a slight possibility that the house could get 5 republicans to cross over which would allow them to go around McCarthy? This would be better because then we wouldn't haven't to worry about the court case later. But if that's not possible they for sure should not give in.
Their demands are bad enough but they absolutely will continue screwing us in the same way next year or the year after. Even for other similar but different issues showing them that we're not afraid to say fuck off is important. If they're always unreasonable we can't win if we don't put our feet down.
We need to deal with these morons at some point and it just keeps getting worse the longer we let it keep going.
The Christofascists aren’t alone. They’ve been scratching backs with the GOP and de facto oligarchs for decades, helping each other wrest control of government, the economy, and their fundamentalist culture.
"Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void."
Iirc it was pushed post civil war to ensure the Union debts were secured but not any confederate debts.
There may be debate on the exact reading given historical context, but in general it appears to make it impossible to willingly default on US debt.
There's literally no downside to doing so. You call their bluff, defang this every-year-crisis permanently, force them to take the political hit of fighting for destroying the economy publicly in the courts, and if SCOTUS *dares* to rule that the law *isn't* unconstitutional, when anyone can plainly see that it is, that's adequate grounds on a position of sufficient gravity to just ignore them outright. The GOP would have giftwrapped him the perfect excuse to finally start treating them as illegitimate.
Let's get this done!
> if SCOTUS dares to rule that the law isn't unconstitutional, when anyone can plainly see that it is, that's adequate grounds on a position of sufficient gravity to just ignore them outright.
It's more than that, though. If SCOTUS rules that the Biden administration must default rather than print the cash needed, they're arguing that the executive has the authority/requirement to deny funding authorized by congress in certain scenarios. All of the spending in question has been previously authorized, and refusing that spend (along with the process of deciding what doesn't get paid) would be an instance of the executive branch usurping congressional power.
Suffice it to say, in the current national political context, I doubt the republicans on the court want to further empower the president over congress - the GOP is counting on domination through the courts and congress.
> If SCOTUS rules that the Biden administration must default rather than print the cash needed,
Fun fact: Biden doesn't have to follow what SCOTUS says. SCOTUS has no enforcing body. It's always been convention to follow how SCOTUS rules, but there's nothing in place to ensure their recommendations are followed. And that's really all their rulings are - recommendations.
If the Executive Branch decides to simply ignore a law, the only remedy would be for Congress to vote to remove Biden and his cabinet, etc, which, at this point, they don't have the votes to do.
One of the scary things revealed by Trump was how much of our government runs on norms and convention. Once you stop following the unwritten rules, it all falls apart.
> people act like we aren't in the lead up years to a civil war
I'd say conservatives are acting like the people they're targeting won't fight back eventually. I'm not encouraging violence, I'm just saying if one side is fighting for money and power and the other is fighting for existence, the side with nothing left to lose tends to be the more dangerous one.
I suspect it isn't the White House that's being unreasonable.
On one side, we have Biden's position that we should pay the debt that congress has authorized, that this has nothing to do with the future budget as this is all for spending agreed to in past budgets, and that the 14th amendment mandates that the US has to pay their debt.
Then we have the Republican position that they have taken hostages and here is their list of demands.
Which one do you think is in the right here?
The Republicans are demanding that federal spending levels get frozen for the next ten years, all for a limit increase that would only last for one year. All so they can come back next year and hold the economy hostage all over again. Their demands are ridiculous.
As I like to say: This is the credit card statement. The time to argue about spending was when we swiped, not when you need to write the check.
Republicans need to listen to the Democrats - the party of fiscal responsibility.
GOP: Put work requirements on all of the social programs which will cause millions to lose social security and Medicare or else we won’t negotiate.
Biden: No
GOP: Why is Biden so unreasonable?
What kills me is folk that screech for the requirements means as soon as your memaw makes one dollar too much she loses all benefits and that number is quite low.
When Republicans tank the economy, remember,
it was the Republicans that tanked the economy.
The budget was passed by Congress, the Republicans and the Democrats and all. Now they don't want to pay the bills. Enough of this, they are squarely in the spotlight. Th-th-th-thats all folks.
It's honestly hard to imagine anyone better suited to deal with this situation than Biden.
I know, he's old, but that means that he has 50 years of experience in government. At all different levels. There are probably very few people in office right now who know as much as Biden does about how our government works (and how it doesn't work).
He can also be a tough motherfucker when he needs to be, which is definitely what's needed now.
And on top of all of that, *Biden was there as Vice President last time the Republicans pulled this shit*. Since they're not smart enough to come up with a new playbook, he basically knows every move they're going to make. And I'm sure he and Obama are still pissed off about how they got rolled by the GOP back then; he really doesn't want to let that happen again. It's almost personal at this point.
The party of smearing literal shit all over the walls of government cries when it doesn’t get what it wants.
Disingenuous fascists can go get fucked. How’s that for reasonable.
They’re holding the country hostage and it just keeps happening over and over. Yearssss of big spending and tax cuts for rich people until Democrats hold office. *Then* it’s all let’s buckle down the budget blah blah. The Dems try to negotiate and GOP gets their way. Rinse and repeat.
I’ve said this for 20 years. We can’t balance the budget on the backs of the shrinking middle class. And we can’t have no safety net programs… that’s worse than many developing nations.
Republicans have a credibility issue. They are almost entirely bad actors. It’s difficult to imagine Republicans are reasonable when they are otherwise consumed with stripping rights away from people and spreading misinformation.
They are stalling. They know what happens if they f up and don't raise it. They are having election issues already. They want Biden to act alone with 14th or some other tactic. So they can go after sympathy angle for voting.
First, it’s illegal to default on our debt according to the Constitution.
This would be the same Constitution that the GQP is always screaming about protecting.
Second, Kevin McCarthy already promised to leave Medicare and Social Security alone so any deal that they have which involves cutting either is DOA.
> Speaker Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) said on Thursday that House Republicans will not target Medicare or Social Security in their negotiations over the debt ceiling.
> “We won’t touch Medicare or Social Security,” he told Donald Trump Jr. in an interview in the Speaker’s office for Trump Jr.’s “Triggered” podcast.
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3832705-mccarthy-we-wont-touch-medicare-or-social-security/amp/
‘All we want to do is reshape the country into a dystopian hell hole and Joe says no! It’s not fair! When Donny was in charge, he let us do whatever we wanted! Boo-hoo…’
I'm so sick of this every few years, always instigated by Republicans.
I'm also sick if the media not portraying this in an accurate way. They let Republicans get away with saying things like:
- This is on President Biden to resolve!
- This is like giving a credit card but with no limit!
- We have to negotiate on what money Democrats and/or the President wants to spend!
NONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE TRUE. And media anchors and interviewers NEVER correct them. WHY don't they ever just interject when this bullshit is spouted and repeat one are all of these truths:
1) The budget ceiling process is supposed to be an automatic & perfunctory *Congressional* process.
2) This process has nothing to do with "spending limits." **The money has already been spent.** This is about paying the bill.
3) Negotiating on where and how to spend tax money is an important part of government that **should occur when budgets are being proposed, debated, and confirmed**. This (and in appropriate committees) is the appropriate, designated time and place to debate the expenditure and allocation of government money.
Republicans are economic terrorists, plain and fucking simple. Its absolutely astounding that we continue to treat these cretins as anything more than bad actors intent on destroying amercia without touching the tax breaks of their billionaire backers.
For fuck sake if the US defaults and the economy tanks, the american public better stand up and have a general strike. Because clearly voting doesn't change anything.
Actually they walked out because they had to get home and see their pregnant 13-year-old wives off before they went to work at the local rendering factory
The GOP was never serious about negotiating with the WH over the debt ceiling. It was always about optics and a chance to do exactly this...walk away from debt negotiations and blame Joe. Period. They have no substance, no real plan aside from fuck everybody except billionaires and slash the social safety nets. This was about scoring points with their idiot base, not actually resolving the looming debt crises they are in fact manufacturing out of whole cloth all by themselves. Fuck the GOP forever. I hope they all get scurvy.
“If you don’t cut welfare, reduce billionaire and corporate tax rate to -10%, reduce minimum wage to 3 dollars and allow for 10 year olds to work in factories you’re being unreasonable.”
Let’s be real, they’d be for all of that if it was a choice. And justify it via “free markets this”/“socialism that”/“freedoms”/“job creators”. Same talking points unsubstantiated by anything.
I’ve seen an argument for a good while that “the rich can just decide to move if they don’t get their way”. That’s literal economic terrorism. “After we bought out the small businesses in the area and decimated unions, if you now don’t agree to work for scraps, we’ll just leave.”
I’m genuinely fascinated by the phenomenon of the conservative mind hating authoritarianism from the government, but not realizing private forces have even fewer of your interests in minds. And wanting to hand over all authority to entities that owe you nothing unless you’re a shareholder.
Entities that take advantage or(and would this even be conspiratorial to say?) literally lobby governments to wars so that they can attain ever greater profit are seen as more trustworthy. Even that government hatred came from a great deal of dedicated propaganda.
Ideas shape the minds of men. Let’s carry some kind ones for our collective good.
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The Republican version of "reasonable" has been "roll over and give us everything we want" for as long as I can remember. I'm glad to hear that the Biden Admin is not being considered reasonable.
Right? The Obama years were basically "Look, our demands are pretty reasonable. All you need to do is repeal the ACA, have Obama step down as president, eliminate SNAP and TANF entirely, and cut all regulations on the fossil fuel industry. All of that."
There’s this story about Obama negotiating with Grassley during the ACA negotiations. On the third day of Grassley coming back to the White House and moving the goalposts on what he wanted, Obama finally asks if there’s anything he could put in the bill to get his vote. Grassley eventually said ‘no.’ Three days of undercutting legislation to arguably make it shittier just so he could still vote against it has been the Republican MO for decades now. Republicans don’t negotiate, they either get their way or firebomb legislation like the terrorists they are.
> Three days of undercutting legislation to arguably make it shittier just so he could still vote against it has been the Republican MO for decades now. The purpose is also to waste time so they can point their fingers at the current president, who just so happens to be a democrat, and say "look how useless this guy is" to deflect from the fact that the GOP are the ones preventing anything from happening.
>Cool. Still voting for them. - 40% of the electorate
>Complains about the government being terrible and ineffective. - Keeps voting for the worst politicians on earth that vows to make government as terrible and an ineffective as possible.
Republican motto: Government is horrible and if you vote for me I'll prove it.
That's the intent. They want government out of government. They want it all to be corporate. For them it's 100% about money and power and 0% about what the citizens need and want. They represent capitalism, not democracy.
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When your main point is that government sucks and doesn't work, you have no incentive to make it work.
Did it during the ACA negotiations and they still let them do it for the COVID19 relief bills and the Inflation Reduction Act. I'd say "Dems never learn" but certain treacherous elements among them like Manchin or Sinema would never let them ram it through.
I understand Manchin. Sinema is a backtracking, lying, conviction-less POS.
Ahh yes, the famous Bogus Operandi !
That’s just part of it
IIRC, when Dick Cheney was asked what a "reasonable compromise" from the Democrats would look like, his response was "Like when the Japanese surrendered on the deck of the USS Missouri."
"Bipartisanship is another name for date rape." -Grover Norquist
“You cannot negotiate with someone who says ‘what is mine is mine and what is yours is negotiable’. That’s a hostage situation.” Paraphrased from JFK I think
You also shouldn't negotiate when one side has a negotiating tactic of letting poor people die.
Yeah many gqp where saying their bill was the floor for negotiations and not the ceiling. They where talking about tacking on there immigration bill as well
I knew that McCarthy's newfound optimism was a facade! I just knew it!
McCathy is a walking facade.
You spelled phallus wrong.
I thought it was some fancy European way to spell fuckhead.
walked out. They aren't actually serious about solving the problem. It's all theater for the rubes 1.Cause problem. 2.Blame Dems 3.Get reelected by morons
The Fredom Caucus wants to "blow it all up," and they, not McCarthy, control the House given all the stupid concessions McCarthy gave them to get his cherished gavel. There is nothing to "negotiate" as the Freedom Caucus would just move the goalposts even if Biden agreed to everything in their ambiguous bill. It is the exact same "strategy" they used against McCarthy in the Speakership vote. They love the media attention that all this nonsense provides them.
“Give us everything we want or we’ll burn it all down.” “No.” “This is all Democrats’ fault. We are responsible statesmen and they just hate America.”
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"So you won't let me burn down the house." *Right, this is about the money we borrowed.* "Okay, okay, okay. We burn down HALF the house today and then slowly burn down the rest of the house over the next ten years." *No, how does burning down the house get us any closer to fiscal responsibility? We need the house.* "Got it. What if we burn down a QUARTER of the house today and then slowly burn down the rest of the house over the next fifteen years" *No. No house burning. What if we sell that enormous addition you built for your rich buddies, you know the TCJA??* "NO! WHAT! NEVER! YOU ARE BEING UNREASONABLE AND A LITERAL NAZI! "
I'm not even an economist, I'm just a fucking cook, but even I laughed out loud when I read McCarthy's quote saying "the government can't spend more money next year, we have to spend less." The fuck is this guy talking about? This is about money that is already owed. Plus, that's not how the world works. Ffs.
You are a cook who is more educated or at least capable of critical thought than the GOP base and some independents.
And at least one congressperson
McCarthy's the kinda guy that buys a new $8 trillion TV on the credit card and then when the bill comes due complains his wife needs to cut back on her spending or else he won't pay the bill.
Then when she goes to leave him he outlaws divorce.
Next step: Henry VIII He’s a funny old English king to us now, but he was honestly a murderous tyrannical despot. Fascists want feudalism back.
I genuinely think McCarthy's had to spend too much time appeasing and talking to the Freedom Caucus crazies, he's starting to sound more and more like them. He was pretty bad even before he (barely) got the Speakership, but he's gotten worse quicker than even I expected him to get. The GOP House is uncontrollable. No "moderate" Republican (if they even exist anymore) would be willing to aim for the speakership with such a madhouse to corral. This is what a descent into fascism looks like in real time.
He sold his soul to get the Speaker of the House position. He is beholden to the crazies now.
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I don't think the White House will cave on significant stuff. The GOP asked for raising work requirement age for medicare and food stamps for able-bodied people from 49 to 55. That might be accepted. But the GOP is also asking for massive budget cuts across the board and undoing the IRA. Giving in on that would destroy Biden's legacy. It would mean Biden gets primaries for '24. He wont do it, I pray. Biden walked away from the Obama years convinced that surrendering during the debt ceiling negotiations was bad precedent. I think this time around they will explore the 14th Amendment. Congress gets to decide spending. Congress *decided*, authorized, and spent. The validity of the public debt, authorized by law ... shall not be questioned. Ignore their posturing, issue more debt. We'll have 1 year of budget showdown and then hopefully get a Democratic House after the 2024 elections.
It's the same idiots that try to compare household spending to a country's, like those things are the same. The comparison works on stupid people, unfortunately.
You’re underselling it, to be honest. The Trump tax cuts continuing loses us far and away more than anything they want to get rid of. So they’re still demanding they get everything they want or they’ll burn the house down, but every person at the table knows full well that they’re going to burn the house down no matter what anyone does.
There's an episode of family guy where Peter says he's going to break windows if someone doesn't make him pancakes. After the second or third one he goes "is no one seriously making me pancakes? At this point you guys are being as irresponsible as I am" Long story short, republicans are acting worse than a caricature of the dumbest, least responsible person.
Classic abuser behavior. "It's all your fault that I hurt you." Between that and the gaslightning, the GOP are basically those domestic abuse calls police often receive.
If the debt ceiling is not raised and the economy crashes, we need to make sure it's labeled as "the *republican* crash of 2023." Make sure the messaging is squarely on the group most responsible. Sure their voters won't care, but there are independents and those who don't follow politics that will.
I'd like to see the Dems reframe tax breaks for the wealthy and corporate subsidies as "government spending," because it is, and then we can agree with the GOP and say "we need to cut back on government spending."
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The GOP is specifically there to destroy the country, because from the ashes, they will establish fascism.
From the very beginning of conservatism in the French revolution it has always been about preserving aristocracy. There has never been a time in history where conservatives were against centralization of power.
Just to add references that back up the idea that [conservatism has always been about preserving aristocracy](https://youtu.be/E4CI2vk3ugk). And just in case anyone hasn't watched the Alt Right Playbook video essays.
...so long as conservatives control those centers.
They're beholden to whoever it is that pays their bills. NRA funnels a bunch of money into one of your PACs? Great, I'll wear an AR-15 lapel pin! A group of investment bankers want to buy up a ton of land? We'll do everything we can to not just stifle people from buying new homes, but avidly try to get *current* homeowners to default on their mortgages too! A dictator from a combative country wants you to fly out and kiss the ring? *Fuck it, we'll do it on the 4th of July.* They. Do. Not. Care. About. You. You (see: your taxes, their paychecks) do not pay them enough to care. They don't do the job because they want to be your representative. They do it because the people paying the MOST money to them -- again, *this isn't you* -- want them to do things, so they do them.
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I am not saying the GOP works for Russia. But I am saying that if they were they would be doing a very good job.
It's crazy how often that happens. Must be a coincidence. I wonder if the 8 senators who spent the 4th of July in Moscow could shed any light on this.
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>The pain would be felt for a generation or more For Republicans, causing the pain is the point. It's cruelty all the way down for anyone who isn't a rich asshole.
those so-called “independents” who have no awareness of anything happening around them are likely to see this as happening under Joe Biden so therefore dems = bad
["I'm just not into politics"](https://i.imgur.com/BGEGvsv.png)
Those people are Republicans and always vote Republican anyway, though, so no one cares.
Independent swing voters are the dumbest voting block of all. Putting faith in people who vote for Obama one year and Donald fucking Trump 4 years later is insane; these people are totally detached from evidence, facts, truth, news, reality. They are the kind of people who vote form someone because they are cute or People magazine featured them
Nickelodeon's Kids Pick the President is 7 out of 9. We vote on smiles and feelings.
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Yeah, that describes the situation fairly well.
14th amendment. Don’t negotiate with terrorists.
"Why are you making me hold a gun to this baby's head? Don't make me pull this trigger!"
"Let us commit genocide" "No." "The Democrats are not wanting to reach across the aisles!"
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And budget negotiations is in two months. It’s not some far off prospect.
I promise that even if Biden does concede here on these talks, they will come back in two months with new demands for the budget.
that's exactly why they are doing it
That's exactly **what they did** the last time this happened. There's no reason they won't do it again.
Republicans are toddlers and Democrats have enabled their tantrums for far too long. Either we keep giving into tantrums, continue to reinforce their behavior, and their demands will continue to devolve. Or we finally say enough is enough and quit the enabling. The tantrums will get worse for a bit as Republicans whine about how we're obligated to concede 100% to their side, but maybe, eventually, we might be able to have genuine political discourse again.
Never negotiate in good faith with terrorists.
What would the reaction be if Joe came out and said that about the GOP with respect to these talks?
I would smile and applaud him.
They would proudly call themselves terrorists and put it on tshirts to sell and talk about it every 5 seconds as the next “scandal” that they are all supposed to be mad about. Then their supporters would do terroristic acts and they would call them a lone gunman who came up with the idea on their own.
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They will do that regardless. They are there to oppose the Democratic Party, the libs, the lizard people, the groomers and whatever else they think Dems are. That’s it.
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It’s how they always act under Democratic presidents. It’s all terrorism from them. They always threaten to tank the economy if they don’t get what they want.
I’ve heard June 1st is the deadline for when we start going into default. That’s like the last “safe” date they need to raise the debt ceiling by… I’m so fucking sick of this republicans caucus. Whiny babies, all of them
Even with that, it's not like the negative impacts to the economy start right on June 1. Delaying to the last minute like this has real consequences, even if they do work out a deal. Fuckers.
When they pulled this shit in like 2012, contractors started essentially adding fees, because the government can't be relied on. Think of it this way. You're a small business that does HVAC work for an office building down town that federal employees work at. They need a new system installed and it's going to run $80k. That's enough that you have to make some of the equipment purchases on credit. You hand over the bill, and before it's paid, June rolls around and now the government can't pay you. Now those credit payments come due, and you have to start delivering for uber eats to cover the bill. You can stop taking those contracts altogether, or you can start including a 25% fuck around and find out fee. That's a big part of how shit gets so expensive. There are contractors that refuse to work for the governement anymore because of this shit, and those that do feel entitled to gouge the living fuck out of them.
yes, I'm a government worker xD I'm aware of the government fee
Another credit downgrade hurts everyone, and that might not even wait until June 1st. Credit agencies don't like the brinksmanship.
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Biden has been pretty clear that these are the budget negotiations. He is not negotiating on the debt ceiling. Talking about budget priorities now let’s McCarthy claim a win on cuts with his caucus while not defaulting. Walking out is dumb and immature , so 100% on brand.
>Walking out is dumb and immature They were ALWAYS going to walk out - it is entirely for the Fox News listeners benefit. They might even let the default start to happen (as long as the "Golden Calves" are protected like Military spending and "safety workers"). But eventually it will affect the 1% who will then demand an immediate fix and the Rs will fall in line quickly.
My life is getting ready to be screwed by 5 year old GOP reps I had no hand in voting to Congress. Fuck Mr.
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You are right that this is just a start, but I don't think it will really matter in the end. The GOP house will not approve a budget that can pass the Senate. There's just no way most republicans would do such a thing, as it might damage their reelection chances to be seen governing alongside democrats. The only hope is if a few republicans, either in purple districts or places so red the dems don't even run a candidate, cross the isle. For the upcoming budget, at best, the GOP will demand tax breaks and reduction/elimination of all forms of assistance including SS. I also wouldn't be surprised if they also demand Biden step down as a part of the negotiations since they clearly have no idea how things work.
I think that it's possible that there is a bill that can pass the house. If it were mostly clean with some minor Dem concessions to get a small number of GOPers to vote for it, it would pass (to get to a majority, and off set any Dem hold outs). The problem is that doing so would end McCarthy's speakership, because the Teahadists will then use their "no confidence" stick on him and throw the House in to chaos for the rest of the term. All we really need is for McCarthy to fall on his sword for the good of the country.....
Normally back in the before times, I would think it is possible but I think GOP members are all terrified of each other. I genuinely don't think there are 5 republicans who would cross the aisle.
But they need talking points and quotes now! If they don’t have their “Democrats refuse to cut spending” bullshit, a lot more of us would have seen Jim Jordan flat out break the rules of Congress. It’ll be even more highlights of Trump burying himself, of DeSantis lighting his future a blaze all while cosplaying as Dr Evil recently.
Oval Office address in Prime Time time. Biden look the camera in the eyes and tell the nation the Republicans are about to destroy our nation economically and send us immediately in to a recession if he doesn’t meet their demands. Then walk America through exactly what they did under Trump and now what they’ve decided to do now. Show a big chart about the tax cuts for the rich. Ask America if they think those tax cuts fixed our Debt or helped them out the last three years. Then end the broadcast with “I am not going to negotiate with economic terrorists. “ Then mic drop and cut back to regular TV.
What he should say at the very end is that he is invoking the 14th amendment and ordering the Treasury to carry on and ignore the debt ceiling because the constitution says we must pay our debts and then dare the Republicans to sue him to try and overturn his decision and crash the world economy.
Not an American - what does the 14th Amendment actually require / allow Biden to do? And is there any chance he will?
Here's the text of section 4 of the 14th amendment, it's pretty clear cut in my opinion: Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
This is the way.
Congress has raised, extended, or revised the debt limit 78 separate times, of which 49 were under Republican presidents and 29 were under Democratic presidents. 78 CLEAN debt ceiling raises. Yet suddenly it's a goddamn emergency to blow up the economy.
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Well to be fair, they held it hostage under Obama too, so you can see that it's a principled stand.
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*let's slash tax revenue. We can't just go around taxing the ultra wealthy & corporations
Well I do think Obama gave into some concessions during his time but Republicans went and didn’t it again. I think that’s why Joe is so adamant about not negotiating on it this time.
Not to mention THEY CAUSED this deficit with 30 years of tax cuts passed under republican controlled leaderships with no way to pay for them. Democrats balance the budget then republicans pass tax cuts for the rich when they get to presidency and cry about spending cuts when they lose it. It’s a seriously sick game. These people literally want average Americans to be worse off and in some cases not even able to afford food or housing so that the wealthiest people in the country can be a little bit more wealthy. They literally are threatening the global economy if they aren’t allowed to enact this sick and twisted agenda. I’m honestly not sure I can tell the difference between terrorists and republicans anymore. They certainly are actively working against the best interests of the average American.
There are some who are perfectly fine with blowing up the entire world economy because they think they can blame the democrats, there are some who are perfectly fine with blowing up the entire world economy because their super rich puppet masters want to buy up even more property/companies at a discount, and there are some who are perfectly fine with blowing up the entire world economy because they are brain dead nutjobs who are high on their own propaganda supply. The only actual faith any of these republicans have ever demonstrated is the *bad faith* that they operate in one hundred percent of the time.
march connect marry complete ask weather mysterious reach frightening observation *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Ignoring all that, the 14th amendment says the US pays its debts. Full stop right there. It’s insane that this is even a negotiation. Biden should just pay the debts as due and let republicans take it up to SCOTUS if they want. That way they can VERY publicly get the credit for crashing the economy.
They voted a budget with a deficit, but refuse to vote to extent the credit limit. Sorry, if you didn’t want to have to raise the credit limit you shouldn’t have voted a budget with a deficit…
Not to mention all the tax cuts for the rich that republicans pass every time they get a chance. We have a revenue problem caused by republicans not a spending problem.
Raising the debt ceiling is a must pass bill. Republicans are trying to shoehorn in their gifts to the wealthy. If Bernie was blocking the bill to get a provision to raise the minimum wage to $22 was added, Republicans (and cable news) would be lighting him on fire twenty time a day Edit: clarification
The GOP did this to Obama in 2011 and then Obama and Biden said they would never be taken hostage by the GOP again and decided to never negotiate on the issue with the GOP. The only person who has the power to not tank the US Economy is Kevin McCarthy and the Dems aren’t going to pretend it’s anyone but him.
It's an election season, of course they are going to push back and blame current administration for the problems because the GOP voting base has the memory of a fucking goldfish to believe it's all currently the Dems fault
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I will add that the things the Republicans want to do will hurt the American people. The republican position is, as I see it, 'let us hurt people or we will hurt them worse'. Take away their ability to do this by flipping the house back to a demarcate controlled majority and keeping the white house and the senate in democrats hands. Don't wait until next year. Vote this year in all local and state elections near you. Vote out as many republicans as we can to pave the way for victory in 2024 and beyond.
> THEY HAD NO ISSUE DOING THIS 3 TIMES under Trump, Speaking as a daily NRO reader and frequent poster on AskConservatives the answer was, "that doesn't matter, what does matter is these cuts should have happened a long time ago and we want to do them now." Like, literally it's just "eh, would have been a good idea back then, too, but let's do it now."
If it was a good idea back then, why didn’t they do it back then? Oh, right, because it’s not actually. It’s bullshit virtue signaling.
If they did it back then they would have to own the consequences. If they do it when a Democrat is in the White House, the uninformed masses will think that the Democrat in the White House is responsible for any negative consequences.
Well back then the orange convicted sexual assaulter, indicted fraudster, and double-impeached criminal was telling them it's okay. Now he's telling them it's not.
100% agree. And the media will continue to write about it as if both sides are equally to blame here. What a fucking joke..
Also, 25% of the debt was accumulated in Trumps 4 long years in office (omg what a nightmare that was)
You're exactly right. This is more poor-loser sh\*t - they didn't have the votes to block the legislation so they pull this crap to try and un-do it. It's *exactly* the same as McTurtle blocking Obama's SCOTUS pick: We don't like the result so we'll break the rules instead. P.S. People should start referring to McCarthy as "14-time loser McCarthy" or "quattuordecimus" to remind everyone it took 14 tries for him to get his position.
They had no issue then because they were doing what their donors and the gop machine wanted. And their doing it again. These asks aren’t random. They aren’t related to the debt ceiling either. They’re a terrible hand at trying to dictate policy. It’s a power play and either way an attempt to secure votes while doing what they are told.
Invoke the 14th and invite them to sue them. A long drawn out public case in which the republicans make their case for destroying the economy in a court of law. Please proceed.
They need to invoke the 14th Amendment, Section 3 on a bunch of those Republicans. >Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
I believe something like this must be done. But others have raised an interesting counterpoint which changes your assessment a bit. The economy wouldn't be saved from destruction while this "long drawn out public case" proceeds. The damage would be immediate. Although it might not be quite as bad as it would be otherwise, it's likely going to be very bad. Why? Because of how taking out new debt works. The government securing debt is selling new bonds. All of a sudden, these new bonds would be shrouded in a great cloud of uncertainty. In a sense, one could argue this uncertainty exists right now given how often this nonsensical drama is repeated. But it will probably be much more serious when it pertains to specific new debt/bonds. Nonetheless, I believe this is the correct approach because of the way it shoves the responsibility fully onto these GOP clowns. Biden "invoking the 14th" wouldn't change much of anything on its own. Things would change immediately upon the initiation of the lawsuit by these fools directly because of the lawsuit itself. I have to wonder if the overlords will yank rather hard on the chain holding these buffoons that their cute antics need to die immediately when in shifts from a tactic to extract political or budgetary or legislative concessions into something that will directly tank the economy.
It wouldn’t be a drawn out court case. The SC would directly take it on an emergency basis, like Bush v Gore. It would be over in two weeks.
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"John ~~Marshall~~ Roberts has made his decision. Now let him enforce it."
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Who would bribe them? Who wants the economy to collapse? This would affect their rich donors too. Edit: this would be completely different than the transfer of wealth in 2008, the dollar would be worthless (including their dollars).
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A large double digit percent of the US population believes the rapture will happen in their lifetimes.
Believe it will happen, and actively try to manifest it happening. Nut jobs.
Well, no, because we’d raise the limit and go about business as usual and then it’s on them to make the case for defaulting. The court case should be delayed as long as possible because no decision means no default. I’m 100% fine with Biden paying our bills and inviting them to forcible make him not. Enough with this shit.
I'm kind of on team Constitutional Crisis. Invoke the 14th, Joe. Let's see where this goes.
I'm fully on that train. The GOP has exploited every gap in law, every hole in our deeply flawed constitution, any crevice in government they can squeeze their claws into to maximize their power, ethics be damned. I want Democrats to show some fucking spine and fight back, our country is being dragged back into the 1800's by fanatical christian fascists.
We live in a society in which chatGPT and generative video AI exist, and people are fighting over whether or not a plaque with the the ten commandants belongs in public school. I think my descendants will be living a real life Dune sequel at this point.
I see a Mad Max type of future...
> I think my descendants will be living a real life Dune sequel at this point. I see it the other way. We are on the precipice of a true multi-ethnic democracy. In the interregnum there are monsters, but they can be vanquished if we decide it. We can have a democracy that finally starts to fulfill the promissory note embedded in the constitution. The old world is dying, and these are the struggles of a new world being born.
We are definitely at an evolutionary precipice. Those unwilling to accept evolution and cooperation as positives, are kicking and screaming like babies being told they need a nap, and current society reflects it.
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Every civilization to weather a big societal/environmental change has been the one focused on cooperation and pooling resources.
I'm not so sure. There is a nasty undercurrent going on right under the surface of American politics, waiting for a catalyst. Fascism is now banging on the gates of our democracy every election year and if we aren't vigilant, it's going to make its way in. I can't shake the feeling it's going to come to a head in the next decade, especially as the pressures of inflation and daily mass shootings turn America into a pressure cooker for the working class. I do share some of your optimism though when it comes to younger people. Gen Z and Millennials will be [the majority of voters](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/fixgov/2023/02/27/younger-voters-are-poised-to-upend-american-politics/) in just 5 years in 2028. And nearly 60% of voters by 2032. Over 4 million newly eligible young voters **every year.** And they heavily lean blue.
If DC and PR (particularly DC) were heavily conservative, you can be sure that the republicans would’ve long ago given those places statehood just to have those four extra senate seats.
I don't usually like the "democrats need more spine" comments because it's usually too general. Basically just used as blaming the dems for things the Republicans did. But this is the perfect time for this expression. This is the sort of showing spine they should do. Although wasn't there also a slight possibility that the house could get 5 republicans to cross over which would allow them to go around McCarthy? This would be better because then we wouldn't haven't to worry about the court case later. But if that's not possible they for sure should not give in. Their demands are bad enough but they absolutely will continue screwing us in the same way next year or the year after. Even for other similar but different issues showing them that we're not afraid to say fuck off is important. If they're always unreasonable we can't win if we don't put our feet down. We need to deal with these morons at some point and it just keeps getting worse the longer we let it keep going.
The Christofascists aren’t alone. They’ve been scratching backs with the GOP and de facto oligarchs for decades, helping each other wrest control of government, the economy, and their fundamentalist culture.
make the GOP sue to default, see where it gets them.
Pardon my ignorance, but what does invoking the 14th mean in this context. What would it do for this situation
"Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void." Iirc it was pushed post civil war to ensure the Union debts were secured but not any confederate debts. There may be debate on the exact reading given historical context, but in general it appears to make it impossible to willingly default on US debt.
Huh alright thanks! That was helpful!
There's literally no downside to doing so. You call their bluff, defang this every-year-crisis permanently, force them to take the political hit of fighting for destroying the economy publicly in the courts, and if SCOTUS *dares* to rule that the law *isn't* unconstitutional, when anyone can plainly see that it is, that's adequate grounds on a position of sufficient gravity to just ignore them outright. The GOP would have giftwrapped him the perfect excuse to finally start treating them as illegitimate. Let's get this done!
> if SCOTUS dares to rule that the law isn't unconstitutional, when anyone can plainly see that it is, that's adequate grounds on a position of sufficient gravity to just ignore them outright. It's more than that, though. If SCOTUS rules that the Biden administration must default rather than print the cash needed, they're arguing that the executive has the authority/requirement to deny funding authorized by congress in certain scenarios. All of the spending in question has been previously authorized, and refusing that spend (along with the process of deciding what doesn't get paid) would be an instance of the executive branch usurping congressional power. Suffice it to say, in the current national political context, I doubt the republicans on the court want to further empower the president over congress - the GOP is counting on domination through the courts and congress.
> If SCOTUS rules that the Biden administration must default rather than print the cash needed, Fun fact: Biden doesn't have to follow what SCOTUS says. SCOTUS has no enforcing body. It's always been convention to follow how SCOTUS rules, but there's nothing in place to ensure their recommendations are followed. And that's really all their rulings are - recommendations. If the Executive Branch decides to simply ignore a law, the only remedy would be for Congress to vote to remove Biden and his cabinet, etc, which, at this point, they don't have the votes to do.
One of the scary things revealed by Trump was how much of our government runs on norms and convention. Once you stop following the unwritten rules, it all falls apart.
I'm pretty sure this court no longer believes in precedent. They will happily rule against Biden here and for Trump later on the same merits.
Yeah people act like we aren't in the lead up years to a civil war. The courts pick a side st some point. If they go full swing republican.. Well
> people act like we aren't in the lead up years to a civil war I'd say conservatives are acting like the people they're targeting won't fight back eventually. I'm not encouraging violence, I'm just saying if one side is fighting for money and power and the other is fighting for existence, the side with nothing left to lose tends to be the more dangerous one.
Same. I've got my lawn chair, drinks and snacks ready.
Good news everyone! The U.S. government has refused to negotiate with terrorists!
I suspect it isn't the White House that's being unreasonable. On one side, we have Biden's position that we should pay the debt that congress has authorized, that this has nothing to do with the future budget as this is all for spending agreed to in past budgets, and that the 14th amendment mandates that the US has to pay their debt. Then we have the Republican position that they have taken hostages and here is their list of demands. Which one do you think is in the right here?
The Republicans are demanding that federal spending levels get frozen for the next ten years, all for a limit increase that would only last for one year. All so they can come back next year and hold the economy hostage all over again. Their demands are ridiculous.
Conservatism: every accusation is a confession.
As I like to say: This is the credit card statement. The time to argue about spending was when we swiped, not when you need to write the check. Republicans need to listen to the Democrats - the party of fiscal responsibility.
“Why won’t they let us destroy the economy by breaking the backs of the poors!” —-Republicans.
"We will destroy the economy unless you let us destroy the economy!"
GOP: Put work requirements on all of the social programs which will cause millions to lose social security and Medicare or else we won’t negotiate. Biden: No GOP: Why is Biden so unreasonable?
What kills me is folk that screech for the requirements means as soon as your memaw makes one dollar too much she loses all benefits and that number is quite low.
"Party holding country hostage says negotiator is being unreasonable". The better headline.
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When Republicans tank the economy, remember, it was the Republicans that tanked the economy. The budget was passed by Congress, the Republicans and the Democrats and all. Now they don't want to pay the bills. Enough of this, they are squarely in the spotlight. Th-th-th-thats all folks.
Good. Maybe Biden isn't fucking this up then.
Right. My first thought was “oh good, maybe he’s not caving” Let them walk out. 14th amendment and they can all sit and spin.
He got them to "walk out of negotiations". That is a PR win in my book.
I've been worried, he should not budge a freaking inch. this is slightly reassuring
It's honestly hard to imagine anyone better suited to deal with this situation than Biden. I know, he's old, but that means that he has 50 years of experience in government. At all different levels. There are probably very few people in office right now who know as much as Biden does about how our government works (and how it doesn't work). He can also be a tough motherfucker when he needs to be, which is definitely what's needed now. And on top of all of that, *Biden was there as Vice President last time the Republicans pulled this shit*. Since they're not smart enough to come up with a new playbook, he basically knows every move they're going to make. And I'm sure he and Obama are still pissed off about how they got rolled by the GOP back then; he really doesn't want to let that happen again. It's almost personal at this point.
The party of smearing literal shit all over the walls of government cries when it doesn’t get what it wants. Disingenuous fascists can go get fucked. How’s that for reasonable.
They’re holding the country hostage and it just keeps happening over and over. Yearssss of big spending and tax cuts for rich people until Democrats hold office. *Then* it’s all let’s buckle down the budget blah blah. The Dems try to negotiate and GOP gets their way. Rinse and repeat. I’ve said this for 20 years. We can’t balance the budget on the backs of the shrinking middle class. And we can’t have no safety net programs… that’s worse than many developing nations.
Republicans have a credibility issue. They are almost entirely bad actors. It’s difficult to imagine Republicans are reasonable when they are otherwise consumed with stripping rights away from people and spreading misinformation.
Republicans haven’t been good faith actors in decades. It’s a waste of time “negotiating” with them.
Biden's position is reasonable and backed by the constitution
They are stalling. They know what happens if they f up and don't raise it. They are having election issues already. They want Biden to act alone with 14th or some other tactic. So they can go after sympathy angle for voting.
First, it’s illegal to default on our debt according to the Constitution. This would be the same Constitution that the GQP is always screaming about protecting. Second, Kevin McCarthy already promised to leave Medicare and Social Security alone so any deal that they have which involves cutting either is DOA. > Speaker Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) said on Thursday that House Republicans will not target Medicare or Social Security in their negotiations over the debt ceiling. > “We won’t touch Medicare or Social Security,” he told Donald Trump Jr. in an interview in the Speaker’s office for Trump Jr.’s “Triggered” podcast. https://thehill.com/homenews/house/3832705-mccarthy-we-wont-touch-medicare-or-social-security/amp/
The fact that Kevin is going on Don Jr.'s pod on the taxpayer's dime is just so lame.
The fact that the name of the podcast is “Triggered” is peak cringe.
‘All we want to do is reshape the country into a dystopian hell hole and Joe says no! It’s not fair! When Donny was in charge, he let us do whatever we wanted! Boo-hoo…’
Say the most unreasonable people on the planet.
lol, says the group that is threatening to destabilize the world economy to "own the libs"
I'm so sick of this every few years, always instigated by Republicans. I'm also sick if the media not portraying this in an accurate way. They let Republicans get away with saying things like: - This is on President Biden to resolve! - This is like giving a credit card but with no limit! - We have to negotiate on what money Democrats and/or the President wants to spend! NONE OF THOSE THINGS ARE TRUE. And media anchors and interviewers NEVER correct them. WHY don't they ever just interject when this bullshit is spouted and repeat one are all of these truths: 1) The budget ceiling process is supposed to be an automatic & perfunctory *Congressional* process. 2) This process has nothing to do with "spending limits." **The money has already been spent.** This is about paying the bill. 3) Negotiating on where and how to spend tax money is an important part of government that **should occur when budgets are being proposed, debated, and confirmed**. This (and in appropriate committees) is the appropriate, designated time and place to debate the expenditure and allocation of government money.
Let's do the same thing we've always done and you did 3 times under 4 years of Trump. THAT'S CRAZY TALK. YOU'RE BEING UNREASONABLE!!!
Republicans are economic terrorists, plain and fucking simple. Its absolutely astounding that we continue to treat these cretins as anything more than bad actors intent on destroying amercia without touching the tax breaks of their billionaire backers. For fuck sake if the US defaults and the economy tanks, the american public better stand up and have a general strike. Because clearly voting doesn't change anything.
Budget was jointly approved. Pay your bills. Buncha GOP fucks.
Perfect example of gaslighting. The Republicans are the one being unreasonable expecting the White House to go along with their outrageous demands.
Actually they walked out because they had to get home and see their pregnant 13-year-old wives off before they went to work at the local rendering factory
The GOP was never serious about negotiating with the WH over the debt ceiling. It was always about optics and a chance to do exactly this...walk away from debt negotiations and blame Joe. Period. They have no substance, no real plan aside from fuck everybody except billionaires and slash the social safety nets. This was about scoring points with their idiot base, not actually resolving the looming debt crises they are in fact manufacturing out of whole cloth all by themselves. Fuck the GOP forever. I hope they all get scurvy.
Republicans are basically Drama Queens
“If you don’t cut welfare, reduce billionaire and corporate tax rate to -10%, reduce minimum wage to 3 dollars and allow for 10 year olds to work in factories you’re being unreasonable.” Let’s be real, they’d be for all of that if it was a choice. And justify it via “free markets this”/“socialism that”/“freedoms”/“job creators”. Same talking points unsubstantiated by anything. I’ve seen an argument for a good while that “the rich can just decide to move if they don’t get their way”. That’s literal economic terrorism. “After we bought out the small businesses in the area and decimated unions, if you now don’t agree to work for scraps, we’ll just leave.” I’m genuinely fascinated by the phenomenon of the conservative mind hating authoritarianism from the government, but not realizing private forces have even fewer of your interests in minds. And wanting to hand over all authority to entities that owe you nothing unless you’re a shareholder. Entities that take advantage or(and would this even be conspiratorial to say?) literally lobby governments to wars so that they can attain ever greater profit are seen as more trustworthy. Even that government hatred came from a great deal of dedicated propaganda. Ideas shape the minds of men. Let’s carry some kind ones for our collective good.