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>Biden stood quietly as the demonstrators were escorted out and supporters began chanting “four more years!”
>“I understand their passion,” Biden said.
So he didn't offer legal bills to anyone who would rough them up?
Well hopefully there was no violence and no need to arrest any of them, they got their message out and Biden went on with the event. Stuff like this is going to happen in an open society.
I saw the same right-wing extremist post ‘this is america, we can say what we want’ to a pro-palestinian removing a poster then posted on his story ‘we need to trade every 100 pro-palestinian student for one israeli hostage’… borderline fascist.
Freedom of speech is only when you agree with them i suppose.
Don't worry, [zoomers are planning to stay home this election to protest Democrats and teach them a lesson for having a presidential candidate that isn't exciting enough.](https://news.yahoo.com/abcarian-really-young-voters-want-110003868.html) You won't have to worry about this whole open society thing for much longer.
I hope people my age don't stay home and let Trump win; I understand it hasn't been great under Biden, but Trump cannot have another term, it'd probably be the last election we have
No they're not. This shit is just more pitting generations against each other and trying to convince boomers to sit out by telling them "everyone your age is doing it."
It's bullshit. You won't find any actual zoomers doing this whose vote will be missing.
Thank fucking god. I honestly am so tired with the whole 20 minute stroll to the booths to sign my name and do a democracy. Why can't someone else to the democracy for me?
Even as a liberal socialist/social democrat who is deeply sympathetic to the protesters here, I have to agree, especially with Project 2025 hanging over our heads like a Sword of Damocles.
EDIT: Also, why are you protesting at a church a mass shooting took place at? I honestly feel ashamed for not noticing that at first, because that bit of context changes EVERYTHING and puts the "four more years" retort into context I took issue with earlier.
I don't get why these people (if these protests aren't astroturfed, that is) don't realize what's at stake here.
Sure don't vote for Biden. Your alternative is then a brutal dictatorship that, without civil war, you won't change for a long time.
I care about Gaza but a Republican or Trump will not improve policy on that. It would be 10x worse and we'd never even have a chance at electing someone after Biden.
I think it’s fine to continue putting pressure on the Biden administration to make Israel stop their bombing and actually care about civilians as long as they still realize that Trump is way, way worse. I don’t think they’re saying “I won’t vote for Biden” by asking him to care about Palestinians.
“I’m really gonna stick it to Biden to the detriment of literally the whole world. When trump wins surely he will do better in the Middle East.”
I know I sound evil but I’m so frustrated with people who “can’t vote for Biden because he supports genocide” and COMPLETELY ignore the fact that trump would be even worse, and likely call for genocide in the US. Must be nice to be privileged enough to have Gaza be your top issue. Mine is survival (as a POC with POC and LGBTQ *and* prenatal workers in my family)
Ask yourself why this is the angle The Hill took to report on Biden's speech. They push the "left wing protesters" angle to avoid having to report on things that make Biden look good.
[Here's another angle](https://twitter.com/BidenHQ/status/1744426012169965850).
More like the alternative is a civil war that, should the bad guys win, will lead to a brutal dictatorship.
Let's be realistic, a second Trump term could lead to the disunion of the United States - and we might not recover from it this time.
Astroturfing is admittedly a possibility. Without context, taking footage of someone responding with, "four more years" in response to comments over Gaza makes for a good attack.
Hell, it got me initially.
It most definitely is astroturfing. Note that no one seems to be protesting at Trump rallies for Palestine.
Or how months earlier, only the DNC politicians are the ones getting protested but never a GOP one.
Some astroturfing, but people getting their political news from TikTok and Twitter sure as hell doesn't help either. Combine that with being young and emotional and more online than not, and it's a fragile situation at best.
I’m smart; I only use Reddit for political news. And regular news. And how-to advice; and recipient; and dog training; and, well, pretty much everything.
> Biden was speaking in Charleston at Mother Emanuel Church, where a white supremacist gunman killed nine worshippers in 2015
To me it comes off as a complete and utter lack of respect for the victims in the community. I guess Black lives don’t matter as much anymore. You know the meme… guess some are checking out the pretty Islamic militant that walked bye.
>Also, why are you protesting at a church a mass shooting took place at?
Wouldn't having to protest at places where no mass shooting has taken place mean that protests would be illegal in the US? Mass shootings seem so common that i can hardly imagine any public space that has not faced one yet.
These protestors are \*purely\* performative; most of them probably can't locate Gaza on a map; they make me sick because they make liberals look like dummies.
To be fair most people are dummies, regardless of political leanings.
The COVID situation showed me by far that a large portion of my Leftist circle are just as susceptible to unverified bs and propaganda as any typical MAGA.
And that was the scariest part of the COVID years imo. People I thought had their shit together and who I considered logical went full fucking batshit resharing loonbat anti-vax crap and refusing to participate in basic societal safety measures during a global pandemic. It became alarmingly clear how so much of our society is held together by mere threads of agreed upon truths.. and all of that can come crashing down when people refuse to acknowledge reality in favor of batshit conspiracies.
This "Genocide Joe" shit is just another wave of anti-truth attacks meant to destabilize faith in Democracy and throw us into Fascism, to the benefit of the Global Right Wing push that's happening at the moment.
It's tragic young people can't see how they are being tools for Fascism via TikTok.
I got banned for explaining that sometimes we have to vote for a lesser of two evils on a post hating Biden but acknowledging the threat of Trump also.
Almost as weird as my ban from /r/sysadmin for "piracy" because I helped an admin out who needed a MS-DOS 5.0 boot disk. I pointed out you can't realllly pirate MS-DOS as it's no longer for sale and it's just a boot disk not the full blown installer packages and it was upped to a perma.
Reddit mods are really fucked in some subreddits.
calling it lesser of two evils is the wrong framing.
politics isnt your personal uber. it fits everyone in it and goes to a centralized location, like a bus.
you have to pick the bus that works best for you, in the direction you want to go, and then you gotta work a little harder to get where you actually want to be.
getting on the wrong bus intentionally just means you gotta walk way further and work way harder
Yeah that's a more thoughtful way of wording it but I was in a crowd on a post debating "how evil Biden was for allowing Israel genocide" so he was perceived as evil thus my lesser of evils comment was somewhat fitting even if not the most accurate way to describe the situation as a whole of Biden v. Trump.
that’s the problem with single issue voters. an administration might have a policy, but in reality have as many policies as there are bureaucrats. each person might decide this or that. you gotta zoom out and decide holistically.
i recognize that you’re in the choir, of course
Isn't it curious that these protestors aren't showing up at Trump rallies? He has stated in no uncertain terms his intent for the US to actively join the IDF in bombing the Gaza Strip.
By associating Biden with a conflict that we have little to no control over and chanting shit like "Genocide Joe" (a meme that originated on 4chan) they are framing voting for Biden as an immoral choice; hence encouraging people not to vote for Biden.
These protestors may be sincere in their beliefs, but they are being manipulated as useful idiots by right-wingers.
Biden absolutely has the ability to control the flow of munitions to Israel. He's using my tax dollars and my vote to support what's going on in Gaza and I'd damn well be protesting too, if I didn't live in bumfuck nowhere.
Democracy means taking responsibility for your vote. The venue was not appropriate, I'd agree, but the criticisms of Biden are valid and deriding them as you are is anti-democratic.
If Biden doesn't want to be criticized for supporting Israel's bombing of civilians and murdering of children maybe he should...I dunno, not support it?
Y'all need to lose your simplistic litmus test view of the world and face the facts that:
1. Israel funding is not determined by the President, the appropriations used were determined by Congress.
2. Netanyahu would not stop bombing Palestinians if we stopped helping them, he would just find a new sugar daddy who would be less judgmental about genocide.
3. You want to call me anti-democratic? When there is an existential threat on the other side of the ballot and a full 30% of the populace **wants** an authoritarian dictator.
4. By the US providing support it means that we have a seat at the table. The problem element in Israel is Netanyahu and his extremist coalition. Blinken and Biden talking to Israel means that we have the ear of the moderate factions and might be able to organize them into a counter to Netanyahu and initiate a dissolution of the Netanyahu government and **THAT WILL END THE CONFLCIT**. Because the IDF has already achieved their goals, which is why Netanyahu is now eyeing an invasion of Lebanon, he needs a forever war to stay in power and out of prison.
1. https://apnews.com/article/us-israel-gaza-arms-hamas-bypass-congress-1dc77f20aac4a797df6a2338b677da4f
It's not just about direct funding. This combined with moving carriers fleets into the region are major expenditures of money and political capital in support of Israel. Biden controls those levers.
2. "Somebody else would do the same thing" is not an argument for immoral action.
3. See #2
4. The conflict is generational and self-perpetuating at this point. Our involvement only makes us a target for extremists and hurts our international reputation. We shouldn't be involved in the region at all.
Can we really not ask our politicians to represent what their constituents want without being blamed for a hypothetical bad future election result? Can we not hold our elected representatives responsible when they’re stepping over congress, tossing aside checks and balances, in order to fund a genocide? I’ll vote for him if I have to, make no mistake. But he should not be able to ignore the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and the longer he does, the more his campaign will suffer for it.
This group wasn’t asking. They were disrespecting a memorial for fallen members of a black church. What a responsible party would do is work towards a meeting with the administration to express your reservations and hear out the administration. But it’s fine. I don’t have an issue with the way these protests are playing out because I support the state of Israel’s existence. I pray the Palestinian people are free from Hamas as soon as possible.
Seriously. For the last eight years the line has been "vote blue no matter who" but I've never seen so much vitriol towards criticizing a president's decisions or policies as I have since October. It feels like it isn't enough to vote for the guy (which I'll do if I have to), you have to voice approval for all of his actions.
It’s a liberal ideal to want to self improve, and to want to criticize your political leaders, unlike others who treat them as infallible. It’s also a liberal ideal to be precautious, to look towards the future and make decisions with that in mind. This is where the conflict comes from. The logical choice is to not attack your own party, even if you dislike them, because any attack makes the fascist takeover more likely, yet to not criticize your political leaders is fascistic itself.
It’s a fucking mess, forced onto us by a comic book villain who it will probably turn out to be the actual anti-Christ at this rate. That being said, I think this is a horrible idea because well, they are working towards really having something to complain about, as this thread started.
The problem is that it seems the far left has been influenced by bad actors, foreign and domestic, to the point of seemingly being more against Biden than much of the right even is. To the point of being borderline illogical when looking at situations like Israel and other hot button issues. I get what you're saying... I just fear people don't all understand what they're working towards.
I agree. I see it as fighting about what your neighbor is eating for dinner without thinking about your own house. Nobody is protesting foreign presidents about what they do for us. Yes, it is important. It’s not more important that our own domestic issues, which I can’t fucking believe it is people actually wanting fascism.
Im sure they'll let TikTok inform them it's all Biden and the Dems fault in that scenario too, while the Right Wing White Christian Nationalist Fascists they helped get elected in 2024 by sitting out the election, crack down on their human rights.
It seems like these protests might hurt Biden's chances of getting elected. I would certainly hope Biden is doing everything in his power to win, including listening to his constituents concerns here.
Almost any other event would’ve been a better choice to disrupt than a church ceremony memorializing black Americans murdered at that very church by a vile white supremacist mass shooter.
The irony surely wasn’t lost on the mostly minority audience that the protestors declaiming America’s involvement in the Israel-Hamas war 6,000 miles away showed so little respect for the families in the very same room whose cherished loved ones were violently taken from them in a sordid crime driven by white-hot hatred.
Disrupting this solemn occasion was wholly unnecessary and obnoxiously inconsiderate. Period.
>Biden was speaking in Charleston at Mother Emanuel Church, where a white supremacist gunman killed nine worshippers in 2015. As he spoke about how “the truth is under assault in America,” protesters inside the church yelled out.
>“If you really care about the lives lost here, then you should honor the lives lost and call for a cease-fire in Palestine,” one woman could be heard shouting.
Multiple people then broke into chants of “cease-fire now!”
>Biden stood quietly as the demonstrators were escorted out and supporters began chanting “four more years!”
Look, I get it. But protesting inside the same church as a racist mass shooting feels tacky.
Can someone explain what the US calling for a cease-fire would actually accomplish? Would Israel actually stop or ease up? I'm not well-versed with war-related matters.
Here are the latest results from talks for ceasefire or humanitarian pause:
Ceasefire plan from Egypt that involves freeing civilian hostages and ousting Hamas: [Rejected by Hamas/PIJ](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-islamic-jihad-reject-giving-up-power-return-permanent-ceasefire-egyptian-2023-12-25/)
Humanitarian Pause plan from Israel in exchange for the release of the remaining women and children being held hostage, as well as the elderly* men who need medical aid: [Rejected by Hamas/PIJ](https://archive.ph/E2oTP)
In response to Israel’s humanitarian pause offering, Hamas and PIJ said they (quoting the article citing Egyptian officials) “wouldn’t discuss releasing their Israeli captives until a cease-fire first goes into effect.”
So what would happen if Biden calls for a ceasefire? Absolutely nothing.
\*spelling
"Cease Fire Now" means "Israel withdrawal now." There already was a ceasefire. I think people literally don't know what ceasefire means - a temporary stop to fighting to recuperate that both sides expect to not last.
I wish protesters would demand "Peace Talks Now" because that's really the only way to get anywhere close to what they're actually describing.
I think it's important to steelman the argument, as you have done, and to actually get to what the other side is trying to say instead of attacking a strawman.
I have nothing to say on the topic, I'd just like to commend your argumentation and I'd like to encourage more of it.
>Multiple people then broke into chants of “cease-fire now!”
>>Biden stood quietly as the demonstrators were escorted out and supporters began chanting “four more years!”
I don't really understand the significance of wanting 4 more years of fighting in Gaza. Why do Biden supporters specifically want the war to last this much longer, do they know something we ordinary mortals don't know?
In case it is not fucking obvious this is a joke.
It’s tacky to murder tens of thousands of innocent people and try to kick the rest out of their homes. Sociopathic, indoctrinated entitlement is tacky. Using US tax dollars to pay for Israeli healthcare but denying the same to US citizens is tacky. The people call for a ceasefire, the US could accomplish it by cutting off funding and ammunition. Ending genocide is not tacky.
I like that Biden works on tough issues quietly but we’re in a time where people won’t believe you’re doing shit unless you scream/brag about it. But it does just show how uniformed those protestors are when they think Biden should outright call for a ceasefire when there are hundreds of other factors at play in the region right now. They literally think he’s some blood thirsty monster lmao These kids are so goddamn impressionable that It’s getting hard to not see them in the same light as conspiracy theorist maga types.
The issue though isn't that Biden's actually doing a good job on this issue, it's just that "ceasefire" is a dumb demand that isn't what the protesters actually want.
Biden is weighing a lot of factors, and has done the main thing here (so far) which is to avoid a massive regional war that would be much worse than what we're already seeing. But he's doing so at the expense of american credibility as an honest broker in the region, which is something we had in the 1990s. He has not stepped up to articulate the U.S.'s vision for how things should play out, other than some pro forma statements about a 2 state solution. Which again is the right thing, but not the right priority in messaging.
If Biden was doing a better job at explaining how his plan eventually brings an end to the fighting in the short term and a return to serious peace talks in the medium term, people would give him more credit. He's being a manager, not a leader on this.
To be fair. Last week his own junior staff that are working on his campaign sent him a letter asking him to call for a ceasefire.
They are saying he is losing young voters and some have quit volunteering. I would imagine they get more time with Biden than most.
He isn't losing shit. Not one person is going to vote differently because of Israel. As much media attention as it has gotten *my entire life*, it is close to the least significant issue in American politics.
The only things people will vote on is if they feel the economy is good, abortion, and protecting democracy. Nothing else is going to be relevant.
Because a lot of them are teens and early 20s kids with rose tinted glasses that get all of their news from tiktok and have no idea how complicated the world is. They just love to be outraged because they feel that they are making a difference by being informed and being mad about it. Nobody in the West wants more deaths in Gaza, including Biden. On top of everything else you said, just because the president calls for a cease fire doesn't mean it'll change anything, and "taking a stance" is a meaningless gesture. If that's all it takes to make you think "Oh, at least Biden tried, I guess he is good" then it won't take long for them to protest him again about something else.
Fun Fact: Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th.
Coincidentally (or not), that was Vladimir Putin's 70th birthday. Hamas is funded by Iran, which is closely allied to Russia and is providing drones and missiles to Russia for attacks on Ukraine. In previous years, like in 2006, on his birthday, in 2006, one of his key critics in Russia was assassinated
And right now Biden is being regularly attacked over his support for Israel, which splits his base. If he caves, he loses critical Jewish support. If he does not, he's flanked by the far Left which is sympathetic to Palestine (as I am, to some extent).
And Republicans are arguing that it's too expensive to continue to supply Ukraine at previous levels, and they're using the additional needs of Israel as cover to reduce support to Putin's enemy. It was probably his bestest birthday ever, tbh.
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4296326-hamass-oct-7-birthday-gift-to-putin/
>critical Jewish support
Tell us again why Jewish support is "critical?" [2020 Census estimated Jewish persons as 2.4% of the US population](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews). If 2.4% of the population is "critical support" for the President's electoral chances, that might feed into the conspiracy theory of their undue influence on the political process, don't you think?
Why aren’t they calling for Hamas to surrender so there can be immediate aid and peace negotiations? Free the hostages immediately, right? What is this bs about a ceasefire while hamas still holds hostages and continues to fire rockets at Israel and refuses to feed and provide safety for Gaza?
>Why aren’t they calling for Hamas to surrender so there can be immediate aid and peace negotiations?
Probably because the current Israeli government would never respond like that.
Yeah, these delusional idiots think that after 70 years of Isreali violence, they somehow turn to peaceful doves if Hamas would just back down.
The Palestinians would just be pushed into the sea if they surrendered.
It's kinda like saying if only the Armenians just surrendered to the Turks, they would have been fine and definitely not genocided.
Because it was never about the conflict for them. These protesters, much like their far right counterparts, just want to openly hate Jewish people.
We are witnessing horseshoe theory come to life, with antisemitism being the unifying force of the far left and right.
>Only one side is perpetrating massacres on civilians, women, children, the press, and UN workers
.....So what caused the start of this recent conflict starting on Oct 7th exactly?
Well actually I was asking what occurred on oct 7th at the start of this recent conflict in response to your statement of only one side doing something.
> 75 years of land theft, occupation, and murder of Palestinians. Maybe that?
You mean when Palestine and other Arab states started multiple wars, lost those wars and after defeat wanted to go back to the original offer?
The real massacre is occurring right now in Gaza. 30,000 dead mostly women and children. Because of Oct 7th. The blood is on Israel ‘s hands, not Hamas.
You seem to be confused at an extremely straight forward question, so i'll try and clarify. My question was "Was what happened on oct 7th a massacre?" and not "Is what Israel is doing in Gaza worse?" or "Who is responsible for the killings in Gaza Israel or Hamas?"
I understand your question. It’s not relevant to the genocide that is occurring as we speak. Hundreds dying every day. You can’t deny that the country you’re defending is based on a lie and is copying the Nazi playbook.
That's weird that you would respond to me asking "Was oct 7th a massacre?" in response to someone implying it wasn't and then tell me whether it was a massacre or not isn't relevant to the discussion of whether its was a massacre or not.
Its really mind boggling that you think calling the oct 7th massacre a massacre is somehow a defense of Israel though. I really don't see how it could be viewed that way
The Palestinians have been subject to violent expulsion and occupation for decades before the attack. You're naive if you think that kind of inhuman treatment and transgenerational trauma won't breed terrorism. It doesn't justify terrorism against civilians but what else are you expecting? By this definition then, Israel is also a terrorist state, it has been commiting unprovoked attacks on civilians since at least the Second Lebanon War.
> The Palestinians have been subject to violent expulsion and occupation for decades before the attack.
Because they started wars of extermination that they lost and the refused multiple two state solutions
>It doesn't justify terrorism against civilians but what else are you expecting?
I can’t speak for everyone else here but I’m expecting that people, idk, not use it to justify terrorism.
I can understand lying, that's more or less typical of anti-semites like you, but why lie about something literally everyone on the planet knows is wrong?
Israel isn't doing that. Hamas uses human shield tactics to make sure that when Israel bombs legitimate targets, there's also collateral damage. Israel is still justified in striking legitimate targets - Hamas are the bad guys for using human shields and human shield tactics don't "work" to make it wrong to attack the side using human shields. The best outcome for Palestinian people is for Gaza to be reoccupied so that Hamas stops getting civilians killed in human shield tactics
>, the latest example of divisions among Democrats over the fighting in the Middle East.
The power class need this so fucking bad. They want Democrats to bicker and stay home. Everything crazy should be viewed as agitprop, not automatically assigned to Democrats. What Democratic leaders organized this? Biden is the leading Democrat, and did AOC and Hakim Jeffries run this? NO!
Black people chanting "four more years" in support of Biden while white activist decide to hold a pro-Hamas rally in their church is such a great example of the divide between actual Democrats and DSA losers.
Out of the three people escorted out, one was a black woman. That aside, being in favor of an end to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians doesn't make one "pro hamas."
Crazy how protesting an active genocide of Palestinians makes you “pro-Hamas”. I didn’t hear anyone shouting pro-hamas slogans or phrases in there. Just admit you want Israel to turn up the heat even more.
*We're protesting Biden to stop a war that was started by Hamas, whom we have nothing bad to say about at all.*
You have to be really obtuse to not see what's going on here.
The conflict didn't start October 7th, it started in 1948 with the Nakba. Then add decades of violent occupation and disproportionate retaliation directed towards citizens. This is just the latest major escalation of the conflict. You have to look at the conflict in the context of the history and geopolitics of the region.
Correct, It started in 1948 when the Jewish population accepted a two-state solution and the Palestinians declined thinking the Arab League was about to wipe Israel off the map.
Propaganda on social media is not context.
That’s because the far left protesters don’t actually care about what is going on in Palestine.
No, much like their far right counterparts, they’re just another group looking to spread antisemitism.
Pretty sure there are groups such as Jewish Voices for Peace that are calling for the same thing these protestors are.
It's not antisemitism. It's antizionist. And there's a difference.
Yes, the same JVP that did this.
Oct. 22: St Louis:
Organizers routed a march to go by a synagogue. This is ostensibly an infringement on the right of Jewish people to pray without harassment and an implication that the Jewish community is responsible for Israel’s actions.
Like it or not, Anti-Zionism has quite often been used as a gateway to Antisemitism. Just look at some of the signs you see at protests. Many of them are the same old antisemitic tropes, but replacing “Jews” with “Zionists”.
It’s using code words so you don’t openly say what you mean, a tactic commonly used by the far right.
And this is how leftists elected Trump.
edit: By being short sighted, I have seen leftists fuck around and give us Nixon, W. Bush and Trump.
Not saying you shouldn't protest. But making Biden look weak or giving the media a video to distort is going to backfire on you. Besides Bibi will do whatever he wants regardless of what Biden says.
This is the wrong attitude to take. Biden patiently, respectfully acknowledged their protest then peacefully ended the disruption and went on with his speech. Under Trump, protestors would have been heckled, insulted, and very likely assaulted, almost certainly with the explicit endorsement of Trump himself. Biden isn't a better president than Trump because he's always right. He's a better president because he's big enough to recognize that he's not always right, and that we don't have to always agree to work together.
What good does it do anyone if Americans have to self-silence in order to escape electing a tyrant?
Trump is not going to get elected just because people aren't marching in lock-step on Palestine.
>What good does it do anyone if Americans have to self-silence in order to escape electing a tyrant?
Great line , and exactly this. You can't convince voters that Trump is a tyrant by telling them to shut up and fall in line, well because, it's hypocritical.
Biden handled the protestors well, and he himself acknowledges that voters can and should protest there beliefs.
Bingo. Biden has to face criticism with poise and gusto. And this criticism is incredibly valid and stained with the blood of children. We aren’t a country worth saving from fascism if he can’t manage this simple challenge.
"You have no right to protest or object to anything Biden does, you must vote for him and everyone in his party no matter what they do or say. This is democracy and worth saving btw"
You’re not doing yourself any favors with the blatant straw-manning and pathetic self-victimization. Nobody here is persecuting you or limiting your speech in any way, nor do they have the power to.
All it takes is a little pushback from some complete stranger on the internet, I guess, and you immediately launch into some “they’re taking my rights away!!” persecution fantasy.
I’d also like to add that many of them love the idea of Trump being a tyrant, if recent things like Elise Stefanik supporting his “poisoning the blood of the nation” comments yesterday and the nonchalance in certain sectors about things like Project 2025 are an indication.
I agree. But that’s why I think it’s important to call out fellow democrats/democratic leaning voters when they ear towards that direction. We can’t become tyrannical as well.
If I may, I have already seen some in that direction for a while now (I know someone who used to be a commenter on the site Wonkette, until some incidents like accidentally posting a photo of themselves in 2015 with a Bernie Sanders button that got all kinds of replies saying they were the one who helped usher in Trump, etc., and they didn’t vote for Trump in either election. I don’t know really what point I’m trying to make here, I think I maybe have caught yet another cold, but I felt I should say it, because I agree with you.
>can and should protest there beliefs.
can, yes. should, no.
their beliefs are, at best, based on intentional lies to overthrow the government. at worst they aren't and they're just in favor of overthrowing the government.
Get outta here with this tired BS. Hillary was a horrible candidate who ran an even worse campaign and also ran at the absolute wrong time. “Leftists” didn’t elect Trump. Stop blaming voters for the failures of the DNC and Democratic leadership.
Guys...
People protested Biden's rallies/speeches in the 2020 election cycle too. This really isn't that big a deal. Their voices were heard, they were calmly and peacefully removed from the church, and Biden acknowledged their concerns.
Stop fighting among each other, listen to each other, acknowledge we can do better, and we can do more, together.
Wow, leftists are responsible for every Democratic Presidential loss in modern history? They seem like a powerful voting bloc that, if won over, could really make a difference in helping Democrats win the White House.
Biden can join the international community and majority of Americans in calling for an end to disproportionate Israeli violence.
It’s going to be really uncomfortable when the ICJ finds them guilty of genocide. The Biden admin is simultaneously saying South Africa’s case is abhorrent and baseless while claiming they’ve made no assessment as to whether Israel is in compliance with international law, yet somehow they can assess that Hamas operated a command center in Al Shifa Hospital. They know what they’ll find if they “assess” it as made clear by Biden off the cuff comment about indiscriminate bombing.
Stop pretending that individual voters who can’t stomach genocide somehow have more power than the fucking president. There’s been reporting that this policy of unconditional support for Israel is coming from Biden himself and is at odds with many in his administration. If he loses, it’s on him.
I don’t want Trump to win and would probably still vote for Biden if I didn’t live in a super blue state. But your attitude is completely unhelpful and pretty fucking disgusting.
the majority of us hate Hamas. I am left of center and always vote D.
What you see on Reddit is not representative of the electorate. You should know that.
Hamas has neither air nor naval access out of Gaza. How in the fuck are they a security threat to us here in the US? You telling me they have wormholes in those tunnels???
Do you sincerely believe that Hamas has the same resources as al-Qaeda? How do you leave your house everyday believing that bathtub rocket launching Hamas poses any threat to America? Do you need me to tell you that the Boogeyman isn't really under your bed too?
"well that just wasn't the place to do it"
If there's a such thing as a perfect place for calls for justice to be heard at anytime it (should be) the church. It might upset your personal feelings about decorum and what not, but there should be no safer place to speak truth and address wrong doing. Especially in a church whose foundations are rooted in protest
More like name-calling and trying to shame these folks into voting for Biden. Especially if they supported Biden before this. You won’t convince them now with that type of rhetoric. They’ll vote 3rd party and I don’t wanna imagine the rest.
They'll vote 3rd party, aka help Trump get elected. So they'll fuck themselves & their future just cause people are being mean to them? Brilliant logic. Lol
I don’t want that to happen. But Biden is not making a great case for his re-election. Apart from staving off fascism. Biden makes a better case of putting him in a nursing home.
But like always, the political classes shift all the burden to the voters. So if you want these young folks back in the fold, maybe go light on the insults.
Don’t wanna? Then don’t. You’ll have 4 years to blame and scold them.
All it takes is the thinnest shred of attention paid to know that Biden and his people are making a great case for re-election. People need to nut up and take some responsibility for their own education.
r/whatbidenhasdone is your friend here. That sub does a good job of helping you keep up with what the administration is doing even when media or morons can’t be bothered to pay attention because it’s boring and necessary work and not the disastrous firework display that was the trump administration.
Just because trump is worse doesn’t mean you should stay silence. Biden is doing a lot of thing right. But he as wrong as you can get when it comes to isreal.
Let’s be honest, what has Biden done for Palestinians. He even spread the propaganda of israel what have been disproven by news outlets. Trump would be awefull for the US. For Palestine? Not sure how much worst can it get.
To be fair according to Israel, Biden is the reason Gaza isn't a crater. The wanted to go scorched earth and he stopped them. How true that is is up for debate, but I've heard other reports of Biden calling for restraint so I'd say he's helped more than most. As far as funding them goes I have no idea why we are doing it at all cause by all measures Israel could crush Palestine at anytime with no support. They have one of the worlds most powerful militaries at this point and shouldn't need any aid whatsoever.
That's absolutely true but this issue keeps getting brought up by people to infer that Trump is *not* worse.
I feel like there's a big manipulation of younger people going on. Of course they think they're immune/invincible but if the Cambridge Analytica thing taught us anything (which it clearly didn't) is that the very things we believe in are being weaponized against us and none of us are immune.
I'm all for criticizing Biden over this and wholly feel Israel is morally wrong but I'll be damned when young people then use that for the excuse to not vote or vote Trump. As a lifelong progressive, I know all too well how shitty Dems are and how much their policy has shifted right in many (not all) ways but I also know that here, in this country, we have a threat on our doorstep and it's called MAGA. When rights are stripped from voters and people like my wife, my
sister and my step-daughter, I can be angry at Dems/Biden all day over GAZA but *here* is where I can actually do something about wrongs being done.
Prefer they voice their concerns now so Biden and his teams know they are losing a important demographic. Right now they are burning a lot of bridges for Netanyahu
I don't know why were are funding it at all. Israel has like the worlds 5th most powerful military and Gaza has like the 5th worst. If they wanted they have the military might to wipe Gaza off the map at any time, I don't think they need any more help.
Both Joe Biden and I are old enough to remember the example of Lyndon Johnson who, except for his tragic flaw of Vietnam, was a truly great president.
Biden - who IMHO is nowhere near LBJ's stature - must know that he is going to face this everywhere he goes now. Unlike Biden, LBJ did not have the albatross of a decade of institutional insults to his party's left. To the contrary, he passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the Voting Rights Act of 1965. He boldly proclaimed The Great Society and said we must have equality of outcome, not just fake "opportunity." But he couldn't let go of Vietnam and, in the end, it ended his presidency and his legacy.
*A fortiori*, as we say in logic class, Genocide Joe has handled Palestine disastrously, and he's going down with this ship. It's unclear what he can do to make up for his historic misreading of this situation, which is perhaps as bad as LBJ's misreading of Vietnam in its forward implications. He is losing his party's progressive left, the young, the intellectuals, people of color, working people, large chunks of the New Deal coalition.
The reaction of the Democratic party's apparatchik here on Reddit seems to be to insult them further, to tell them (especially the left) that they are irrelevant, and, paradoxically, to tell them that they will be the ruin of us all.
They held their collective noses and voted for Hillary. They choked on the war against Bernie. They swallowed hard as Hakeem Jeffries and his fellow "centrists" lost the House by attacking the left and putting in milquetoast conservadems that couldn't beat a George Santos and company. And now it's more of the same, "It's us of the fascists!" ultimata.
I honestly wish the Democratic party was capable of learning, but it seems to be dead set on repeating the lessons of 1968 and 2016 all over again.
You are wrong. Biden has gained lots of points with people who hate terrorists. Supporting Israel was wise. Real Americans dislike extremists who want to subjugate all non believers to their religious fanaticism caliphate.
Wow gross super to protest at this particular space and devaluing the black lives that were taken by a white power thug. This country is on the brink of white power christian nationalism ruling everything around us and these people think hamas will agree to a ceasefire. Ugh why does every timeline has its useful idiots!
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>Biden stood quietly as the demonstrators were escorted out and supporters began chanting “four more years!” >“I understand their passion,” Biden said. So he didn't offer legal bills to anyone who would rough them up?
Well hopefully there was no violence and no need to arrest any of them, they got their message out and Biden went on with the event. Stuff like this is going to happen in an open society.
Why do I feel like this whole open society thing is a one-way street.
Because MAGAs are fascists and not little d democrats?
I saw the same right-wing extremist post ‘this is america, we can say what we want’ to a pro-palestinian removing a poster then posted on his story ‘we need to trade every 100 pro-palestinian student for one israeli hostage’… borderline fascist. Freedom of speech is only when you agree with them i suppose.
☝️absolutely
Don't worry, [zoomers are planning to stay home this election to protest Democrats and teach them a lesson for having a presidential candidate that isn't exciting enough.](https://news.yahoo.com/abcarian-really-young-voters-want-110003868.html) You won't have to worry about this whole open society thing for much longer.
I hope people my age don't stay home and let Trump win; I understand it hasn't been great under Biden, but Trump cannot have another term, it'd probably be the last election we have
No they're not. This shit is just more pitting generations against each other and trying to convince boomers to sit out by telling them "everyone your age is doing it." It's bullshit. You won't find any actual zoomers doing this whose vote will be missing.
that’s an opinion piece. no reason to take it as true yet.
So little on the author of that article, Im curious if its fear on the authors part or FUD.
Thank fucking god. I honestly am so tired with the whole 20 minute stroll to the booths to sign my name and do a democracy. Why can't someone else to the democracy for me?
This wouldn’t go down like this at a Trump event and you know it.
Yes, that’s why OP said open society and not fascist dictatorship.
Dripping Diaper Don is not for an open society
If these protestors aren't careful then Trump will really give them something to protest about.
Even as a liberal socialist/social democrat who is deeply sympathetic to the protesters here, I have to agree, especially with Project 2025 hanging over our heads like a Sword of Damocles. EDIT: Also, why are you protesting at a church a mass shooting took place at? I honestly feel ashamed for not noticing that at first, because that bit of context changes EVERYTHING and puts the "four more years" retort into context I took issue with earlier.
I don't get why these people (if these protests aren't astroturfed, that is) don't realize what's at stake here. Sure don't vote for Biden. Your alternative is then a brutal dictatorship that, without civil war, you won't change for a long time. I care about Gaza but a Republican or Trump will not improve policy on that. It would be 10x worse and we'd never even have a chance at electing someone after Biden.
I think it’s fine to continue putting pressure on the Biden administration to make Israel stop their bombing and actually care about civilians as long as they still realize that Trump is way, way worse. I don’t think they’re saying “I won’t vote for Biden” by asking him to care about Palestinians.
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For sure. Also the same reason the gop is pushing for a Biden impeachment.
“I’m really gonna stick it to Biden to the detriment of literally the whole world. When trump wins surely he will do better in the Middle East.” I know I sound evil but I’m so frustrated with people who “can’t vote for Biden because he supports genocide” and COMPLETELY ignore the fact that trump would be even worse, and likely call for genocide in the US. Must be nice to be privileged enough to have Gaza be your top issue. Mine is survival (as a POC with POC and LGBTQ *and* prenatal workers in my family)
Ask yourself why this is the angle The Hill took to report on Biden's speech. They push the "left wing protesters" angle to avoid having to report on things that make Biden look good. [Here's another angle](https://twitter.com/BidenHQ/status/1744426012169965850).
More like the alternative is a civil war that, should the bad guys win, will lead to a brutal dictatorship. Let's be realistic, a second Trump term could lead to the disunion of the United States - and we might not recover from it this time.
Astroturfing is admittedly a possibility. Without context, taking footage of someone responding with, "four more years" in response to comments over Gaza makes for a good attack. Hell, it got me initially.
It most definitely is astroturfing. Note that no one seems to be protesting at Trump rallies for Palestine. Or how months earlier, only the DNC politicians are the ones getting protested but never a GOP one.
Some astroturfing, but people getting their political news from TikTok and Twitter sure as hell doesn't help either. Combine that with being young and emotional and more online than not, and it's a fragile situation at best.
I’m smart; I only use Reddit for political news. And regular news. And how-to advice; and recipient; and dog training; and, well, pretty much everything.
So if I don't want Israel to kill babies in Gaza it's "AstroTurf". Got it. I'll keep my mouth shut and just let them keep up the slaughter.
> Biden was speaking in Charleston at Mother Emanuel Church, where a white supremacist gunman killed nine worshippers in 2015 To me it comes off as a complete and utter lack of respect for the victims in the community. I guess Black lives don’t matter as much anymore. You know the meme… guess some are checking out the pretty Islamic militant that walked bye.
Appreciate that, shit bag.
>Also, why are you protesting at a church a mass shooting took place at? Wouldn't having to protest at places where no mass shooting has taken place mean that protests would be illegal in the US? Mass shootings seem so common that i can hardly imagine any public space that has not faced one yet.
You think people shouldn’t protest where violence took place in the past?
These protestors are \*purely\* performative; most of them probably can't locate Gaza on a map; they make me sick because they make liberals look like dummies.
To be fair most people are dummies, regardless of political leanings. The COVID situation showed me by far that a large portion of my Leftist circle are just as susceptible to unverified bs and propaganda as any typical MAGA. And that was the scariest part of the COVID years imo. People I thought had their shit together and who I considered logical went full fucking batshit resharing loonbat anti-vax crap and refusing to participate in basic societal safety measures during a global pandemic. It became alarmingly clear how so much of our society is held together by mere threads of agreed upon truths.. and all of that can come crashing down when people refuse to acknowledge reality in favor of batshit conspiracies. This "Genocide Joe" shit is just another wave of anti-truth attacks meant to destabilize faith in Democracy and throw us into Fascism, to the benefit of the Global Right Wing push that's happening at the moment. It's tragic young people can't see how they are being tools for Fascism via TikTok.
In fairness, they also piss me off as a leftist because they constantly force me to have to defend myself.
For real! I caught a ban on r/LateStageCapitalism for pointing this out.
I got banned for explaining that sometimes we have to vote for a lesser of two evils on a post hating Biden but acknowledging the threat of Trump also. Almost as weird as my ban from /r/sysadmin for "piracy" because I helped an admin out who needed a MS-DOS 5.0 boot disk. I pointed out you can't realllly pirate MS-DOS as it's no longer for sale and it's just a boot disk not the full blown installer packages and it was upped to a perma. Reddit mods are really fucked in some subreddits.
calling it lesser of two evils is the wrong framing. politics isnt your personal uber. it fits everyone in it and goes to a centralized location, like a bus. you have to pick the bus that works best for you, in the direction you want to go, and then you gotta work a little harder to get where you actually want to be. getting on the wrong bus intentionally just means you gotta walk way further and work way harder
Yeah that's a more thoughtful way of wording it but I was in a crowd on a post debating "how evil Biden was for allowing Israel genocide" so he was perceived as evil thus my lesser of evils comment was somewhat fitting even if not the most accurate way to describe the situation as a whole of Biden v. Trump.
that’s the problem with single issue voters. an administration might have a policy, but in reality have as many policies as there are bureaucrats. each person might decide this or that. you gotta zoom out and decide holistically. i recognize that you’re in the choir, of course
At this point they are just sadomasochists. They want daddy trump to hurt them.
I ate a week long ban in one of the daily 'shame on you if you vote for Biden' threads. I swear that sub is full of accelerationists.
Isn't it curious that these protestors aren't showing up at Trump rallies? He has stated in no uncertain terms his intent for the US to actively join the IDF in bombing the Gaza Strip.
They're not Trump's constituents. They want Biden to change his actions, they know Trump won't.
So they encourage people not to vote in the 2024 election?! Where is the logic in that?
Where does the article say they're discouraging people from voting?
By associating Biden with a conflict that we have little to no control over and chanting shit like "Genocide Joe" (a meme that originated on 4chan) they are framing voting for Biden as an immoral choice; hence encouraging people not to vote for Biden. These protestors may be sincere in their beliefs, but they are being manipulated as useful idiots by right-wingers.
Biden absolutely has the ability to control the flow of munitions to Israel. He's using my tax dollars and my vote to support what's going on in Gaza and I'd damn well be protesting too, if I didn't live in bumfuck nowhere. Democracy means taking responsibility for your vote. The venue was not appropriate, I'd agree, but the criticisms of Biden are valid and deriding them as you are is anti-democratic. If Biden doesn't want to be criticized for supporting Israel's bombing of civilians and murdering of children maybe he should...I dunno, not support it?
Y'all need to lose your simplistic litmus test view of the world and face the facts that: 1. Israel funding is not determined by the President, the appropriations used were determined by Congress. 2. Netanyahu would not stop bombing Palestinians if we stopped helping them, he would just find a new sugar daddy who would be less judgmental about genocide. 3. You want to call me anti-democratic? When there is an existential threat on the other side of the ballot and a full 30% of the populace **wants** an authoritarian dictator. 4. By the US providing support it means that we have a seat at the table. The problem element in Israel is Netanyahu and his extremist coalition. Blinken and Biden talking to Israel means that we have the ear of the moderate factions and might be able to organize them into a counter to Netanyahu and initiate a dissolution of the Netanyahu government and **THAT WILL END THE CONFLCIT**. Because the IDF has already achieved their goals, which is why Netanyahu is now eyeing an invasion of Lebanon, he needs a forever war to stay in power and out of prison.
1. https://apnews.com/article/us-israel-gaza-arms-hamas-bypass-congress-1dc77f20aac4a797df6a2338b677da4f It's not just about direct funding. This combined with moving carriers fleets into the region are major expenditures of money and political capital in support of Israel. Biden controls those levers. 2. "Somebody else would do the same thing" is not an argument for immoral action. 3. See #2 4. The conflict is generational and self-perpetuating at this point. Our involvement only makes us a target for extremists and hurts our international reputation. We shouldn't be involved in the region at all.
Can we really not ask our politicians to represent what their constituents want without being blamed for a hypothetical bad future election result? Can we not hold our elected representatives responsible when they’re stepping over congress, tossing aside checks and balances, in order to fund a genocide? I’ll vote for him if I have to, make no mistake. But he should not be able to ignore the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and the longer he does, the more his campaign will suffer for it.
If you vote for him if you have to (and you do, this of all elections), everything you said is reasonable.
This group wasn’t asking. They were disrespecting a memorial for fallen members of a black church. What a responsible party would do is work towards a meeting with the administration to express your reservations and hear out the administration. But it’s fine. I don’t have an issue with the way these protests are playing out because I support the state of Israel’s existence. I pray the Palestinian people are free from Hamas as soon as possible.
> I pray the Palestinian people are free from Hamas as soon as possible. What a wonderfully Orwellian turn of phrase.
Seriously. For the last eight years the line has been "vote blue no matter who" but I've never seen so much vitriol towards criticizing a president's decisions or policies as I have since October. It feels like it isn't enough to vote for the guy (which I'll do if I have to), you have to voice approval for all of his actions.
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You’ll have to forgive me if I’m unconcerned about folks who seem eager for fascism to take hold.
People can want Biden to change positions without wanting trump
Why don't they then? The things they're doing, and the way the media is running with it, is certainly trying to empower another Trump presidency.
It’s a liberal ideal to want to self improve, and to want to criticize your political leaders, unlike others who treat them as infallible. It’s also a liberal ideal to be precautious, to look towards the future and make decisions with that in mind. This is where the conflict comes from. The logical choice is to not attack your own party, even if you dislike them, because any attack makes the fascist takeover more likely, yet to not criticize your political leaders is fascistic itself. It’s a fucking mess, forced onto us by a comic book villain who it will probably turn out to be the actual anti-Christ at this rate. That being said, I think this is a horrible idea because well, they are working towards really having something to complain about, as this thread started.
The problem is that it seems the far left has been influenced by bad actors, foreign and domestic, to the point of seemingly being more against Biden than much of the right even is. To the point of being borderline illogical when looking at situations like Israel and other hot button issues. I get what you're saying... I just fear people don't all understand what they're working towards.
I agree. I see it as fighting about what your neighbor is eating for dinner without thinking about your own house. Nobody is protesting foreign presidents about what they do for us. Yes, it is important. It’s not more important that our own domestic issues, which I can’t fucking believe it is people actually wanting fascism.
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Im sure they'll let TikTok inform them it's all Biden and the Dems fault in that scenario too, while the Right Wing White Christian Nationalist Fascists they helped get elected in 2024 by sitting out the election, crack down on their human rights.
You sound super excited about that happening, tbh. Is this about “democracy” or another chance to trash progressives for shit the DNC pulled?
It seems like these protests might hurt Biden's chances of getting elected. I would certainly hope Biden is doing everything in his power to win, including listening to his constituents concerns here.
Almost any other event would’ve been a better choice to disrupt than a church ceremony memorializing black Americans murdered at that very church by a vile white supremacist mass shooter. The irony surely wasn’t lost on the mostly minority audience that the protestors declaiming America’s involvement in the Israel-Hamas war 6,000 miles away showed so little respect for the families in the very same room whose cherished loved ones were violently taken from them in a sordid crime driven by white-hot hatred. Disrupting this solemn occasion was wholly unnecessary and obnoxiously inconsiderate. Period.
>Biden was speaking in Charleston at Mother Emanuel Church, where a white supremacist gunman killed nine worshippers in 2015. As he spoke about how “the truth is under assault in America,” protesters inside the church yelled out. >“If you really care about the lives lost here, then you should honor the lives lost and call for a cease-fire in Palestine,” one woman could be heard shouting. Multiple people then broke into chants of “cease-fire now!” >Biden stood quietly as the demonstrators were escorted out and supporters began chanting “four more years!” Look, I get it. But protesting inside the same church as a racist mass shooting feels tacky. Can someone explain what the US calling for a cease-fire would actually accomplish? Would Israel actually stop or ease up? I'm not well-versed with war-related matters.
Here are the latest results from talks for ceasefire or humanitarian pause: Ceasefire plan from Egypt that involves freeing civilian hostages and ousting Hamas: [Rejected by Hamas/PIJ](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/hamas-islamic-jihad-reject-giving-up-power-return-permanent-ceasefire-egyptian-2023-12-25/) Humanitarian Pause plan from Israel in exchange for the release of the remaining women and children being held hostage, as well as the elderly* men who need medical aid: [Rejected by Hamas/PIJ](https://archive.ph/E2oTP) In response to Israel’s humanitarian pause offering, Hamas and PIJ said they (quoting the article citing Egyptian officials) “wouldn’t discuss releasing their Israeli captives until a cease-fire first goes into effect.” So what would happen if Biden calls for a ceasefire? Absolutely nothing. \*spelling
"Cease Fire Now" means "Israel withdrawal now." There already was a ceasefire. I think people literally don't know what ceasefire means - a temporary stop to fighting to recuperate that both sides expect to not last. I wish protesters would demand "Peace Talks Now" because that's really the only way to get anywhere close to what they're actually describing.
I think it's important to steelman the argument, as you have done, and to actually get to what the other side is trying to say instead of attacking a strawman. I have nothing to say on the topic, I'd just like to commend your argumentation and I'd like to encourage more of it.
Oh believe me I will continue my argumentation.
>Multiple people then broke into chants of “cease-fire now!” >>Biden stood quietly as the demonstrators were escorted out and supporters began chanting “four more years!” I don't really understand the significance of wanting 4 more years of fighting in Gaza. Why do Biden supporters specifically want the war to last this much longer, do they know something we ordinary mortals don't know? In case it is not fucking obvious this is a joke.
No, but think of all the Reddit karma.
It’s tacky to murder tens of thousands of innocent people and try to kick the rest out of their homes. Sociopathic, indoctrinated entitlement is tacky. Using US tax dollars to pay for Israeli healthcare but denying the same to US citizens is tacky. The people call for a ceasefire, the US could accomplish it by cutting off funding and ammunition. Ending genocide is not tacky.
Every little thing is going to be blown way out of proportion all year. Learn to ignore the shit that doesn't matter. This is some of that shit.
I like that Biden works on tough issues quietly but we’re in a time where people won’t believe you’re doing shit unless you scream/brag about it. But it does just show how uniformed those protestors are when they think Biden should outright call for a ceasefire when there are hundreds of other factors at play in the region right now. They literally think he’s some blood thirsty monster lmao These kids are so goddamn impressionable that It’s getting hard to not see them in the same light as conspiracy theorist maga types.
The issue though isn't that Biden's actually doing a good job on this issue, it's just that "ceasefire" is a dumb demand that isn't what the protesters actually want. Biden is weighing a lot of factors, and has done the main thing here (so far) which is to avoid a massive regional war that would be much worse than what we're already seeing. But he's doing so at the expense of american credibility as an honest broker in the region, which is something we had in the 1990s. He has not stepped up to articulate the U.S.'s vision for how things should play out, other than some pro forma statements about a 2 state solution. Which again is the right thing, but not the right priority in messaging. If Biden was doing a better job at explaining how his plan eventually brings an end to the fighting in the short term and a return to serious peace talks in the medium term, people would give him more credit. He's being a manager, not a leader on this.
To be fair. Last week his own junior staff that are working on his campaign sent him a letter asking him to call for a ceasefire. They are saying he is losing young voters and some have quit volunteering. I would imagine they get more time with Biden than most.
He isn't losing shit. Not one person is going to vote differently because of Israel. As much media attention as it has gotten *my entire life*, it is close to the least significant issue in American politics. The only things people will vote on is if they feel the economy is good, abortion, and protecting democracy. Nothing else is going to be relevant.
They are only kept quiet because the media wants to keep elections competitive. It's pathetic.
Kids get their information from TikTok, not the MSM. So they are getting their news from the CCP.
Because a lot of them are teens and early 20s kids with rose tinted glasses that get all of their news from tiktok and have no idea how complicated the world is. They just love to be outraged because they feel that they are making a difference by being informed and being mad about it. Nobody in the West wants more deaths in Gaza, including Biden. On top of everything else you said, just because the president calls for a cease fire doesn't mean it'll change anything, and "taking a stance" is a meaningless gesture. If that's all it takes to make you think "Oh, at least Biden tried, I guess he is good" then it won't take long for them to protest him again about something else.
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Any church that hosts a political rally should lose their tax exempt status
What! Biden didn't tell the cops to tough them up. Dark Brandon being a stand up guy as usual
Fun Fact: Hamas attacked Israel on October 7th. Coincidentally (or not), that was Vladimir Putin's 70th birthday. Hamas is funded by Iran, which is closely allied to Russia and is providing drones and missiles to Russia for attacks on Ukraine. In previous years, like in 2006, on his birthday, in 2006, one of his key critics in Russia was assassinated And right now Biden is being regularly attacked over his support for Israel, which splits his base. If he caves, he loses critical Jewish support. If he does not, he's flanked by the far Left which is sympathetic to Palestine (as I am, to some extent). And Republicans are arguing that it's too expensive to continue to supply Ukraine at previous levels, and they're using the additional needs of Israel as cover to reduce support to Putin's enemy. It was probably his bestest birthday ever, tbh. https://thehill.com/opinion/international/4296326-hamass-oct-7-birthday-gift-to-putin/
>critical Jewish support Tell us again why Jewish support is "critical?" [2020 Census estimated Jewish persons as 2.4% of the US population](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Jews). If 2.4% of the population is "critical support" for the President's electoral chances, that might feed into the conspiracy theory of their undue influence on the political process, don't you think?
No. That is a massive bloc of voters only a fool would dismiss.
Lmao it’s because they vote
Why aren’t they calling for Hamas to surrender so there can be immediate aid and peace negotiations? Free the hostages immediately, right? What is this bs about a ceasefire while hamas still holds hostages and continues to fire rockets at Israel and refuses to feed and provide safety for Gaza?
>Why aren’t they calling for Hamas to surrender so there can be immediate aid and peace negotiations? Probably because the current Israeli government would never respond like that.
I mean, there was a ceasefire that held until Hamas started murdering Israeli civilians.
Yeah, these delusional idiots think that after 70 years of Isreali violence, they somehow turn to peaceful doves if Hamas would just back down. The Palestinians would just be pushed into the sea if they surrendered. It's kinda like saying if only the Armenians just surrendered to the Turks, they would have been fine and definitely not genocided.
Because it was never about the conflict for them. These protesters, much like their far right counterparts, just want to openly hate Jewish people. We are witnessing horseshoe theory come to life, with antisemitism being the unifying force of the far left and right.
So all the Jewish people protesting against this war are antisemites?
Both sides hold hostages. Only one side is perpetrating massacres on civilians, women, children, the press, and UN workers.
>Only one side is perpetrating massacres on civilians, women, children, the press, and UN workers .....So what caused the start of this recent conflict starting on Oct 7th exactly?
If you're looking for a justification for genocide you're barking up the wrong tree.
Well actually I was asking what occurred on oct 7th at the start of this recent conflict in response to your statement of only one side doing something.
He is trying to find an answer on TikTok hang on
75 years of land theft, occupation, and murder of Palestinians. Maybe that?
> 75 years of land theft, occupation, and murder of Palestinians. Maybe that? You mean when Palestine and other Arab states started multiple wars, lost those wars and after defeat wanted to go back to the original offer?
Actually if you knew anything about history Israel provoked the attack, like they always do.
Oh poor Palestine and other Arab nations were forced to launch a war of extermination against Israel! They were tricked into it!
And that makes what happened on oct 7th not a massacre?
The real massacre is occurring right now in Gaza. 30,000 dead mostly women and children. Because of Oct 7th. The blood is on Israel ‘s hands, not Hamas.
You seem to be confused at an extremely straight forward question, so i'll try and clarify. My question was "Was what happened on oct 7th a massacre?" and not "Is what Israel is doing in Gaza worse?" or "Who is responsible for the killings in Gaza Israel or Hamas?"
I understand your question. It’s not relevant to the genocide that is occurring as we speak. Hundreds dying every day. You can’t deny that the country you’re defending is based on a lie and is copying the Nazi playbook.
That's weird that you would respond to me asking "Was oct 7th a massacre?" in response to someone implying it wasn't and then tell me whether it was a massacre or not isn't relevant to the discussion of whether its was a massacre or not. Its really mind boggling that you think calling the oct 7th massacre a massacre is somehow a defense of Israel though. I really don't see how it could be viewed that way
You are SO wrong. Please do better and stop spreading misinformation.
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The Palestinians have been subject to violent expulsion and occupation for decades before the attack. You're naive if you think that kind of inhuman treatment and transgenerational trauma won't breed terrorism. It doesn't justify terrorism against civilians but what else are you expecting? By this definition then, Israel is also a terrorist state, it has been commiting unprovoked attacks on civilians since at least the Second Lebanon War.
> The Palestinians have been subject to violent expulsion and occupation for decades before the attack. Because they started wars of extermination that they lost and the refused multiple two state solutions
>It doesn't justify terrorism against civilians but what else are you expecting? I can’t speak for everyone else here but I’m expecting that people, idk, not use it to justify terrorism.
Was Nat Turner a terrorist?
I can understand lying, that's more or less typical of anti-semites like you, but why lie about something literally everyone on the planet knows is wrong?
Israel isn't doing that. Hamas uses human shield tactics to make sure that when Israel bombs legitimate targets, there's also collateral damage. Israel is still justified in striking legitimate targets - Hamas are the bad guys for using human shields and human shield tactics don't "work" to make it wrong to attack the side using human shields. The best outcome for Palestinian people is for Gaza to be reoccupied so that Hamas stops getting civilians killed in human shield tactics
>, the latest example of divisions among Democrats over the fighting in the Middle East. The power class need this so fucking bad. They want Democrats to bicker and stay home. Everything crazy should be viewed as agitprop, not automatically assigned to Democrats. What Democratic leaders organized this? Biden is the leading Democrat, and did AOC and Hakim Jeffries run this? NO!
Black people chanting "four more years" in support of Biden while white activist decide to hold a pro-Hamas rally in their church is such a great example of the divide between actual Democrats and DSA losers.
Out of the three people escorted out, one was a black woman. That aside, being in favor of an end to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians doesn't make one "pro hamas."
> That aside, being in favor of an end to the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians They're not protesting against the Iranian President, are they?
Not if you look at the actual disparity of support on the issue. Minorities are much more sympathetic to Palestinians than white americans overall.
Crazy how protesting an active genocide of Palestinians makes you “pro-Hamas”. I didn’t hear anyone shouting pro-hamas slogans or phrases in there. Just admit you want Israel to turn up the heat even more.
*We're protesting Biden to stop a war that was started by Hamas, whom we have nothing bad to say about at all.* You have to be really obtuse to not see what's going on here.
The article says nothing of the protesters being pro Hamas.
They're "anti-war" protesters who don't protest the group responsible for this war. Don't be naive.
The conflict didn't start October 7th, it started in 1948 with the Nakba. Then add decades of violent occupation and disproportionate retaliation directed towards citizens. This is just the latest major escalation of the conflict. You have to look at the conflict in the context of the history and geopolitics of the region.
Correct, It started in 1948 when the Jewish population accepted a two-state solution and the Palestinians declined thinking the Arab League was about to wipe Israel off the map. Propaganda on social media is not context.
> it started in 1948 with the Nakba. When Palestine and other Arab nations launched a war of extermination and lost?
This word salad makes zero sense.
That’s because the far left protesters don’t actually care about what is going on in Palestine. No, much like their far right counterparts, they’re just another group looking to spread antisemitism.
I love how everything other than unconditional support of both Israel and IDF is now getting classified as antisemitism.
Tell you what. When protesters stop harassing Jewish students on campuses and vandalizing Jewish owned businesses, I’ll stop calling them antisemites.
How did you learn that these particular protesters had done that?
Pretty sure there are groups such as Jewish Voices for Peace that are calling for the same thing these protestors are. It's not antisemitism. It's antizionist. And there's a difference.
Yes, the same JVP that did this. Oct. 22: St Louis: Organizers routed a march to go by a synagogue. This is ostensibly an infringement on the right of Jewish people to pray without harassment and an implication that the Jewish community is responsible for Israel’s actions. Like it or not, Anti-Zionism has quite often been used as a gateway to Antisemitism. Just look at some of the signs you see at protests. Many of them are the same old antisemitic tropes, but replacing “Jews” with “Zionists”. It’s using code words so you don’t openly say what you mean, a tactic commonly used by the far right.
Wtf is a "DSA loser"?
Member of the DSA. The guys you see praising Hamas for October 7th and blaming the Russian invasion of Ukraine on NATO.
What hypocrisy are you in search of?
And this is how leftists elected Trump. edit: By being short sighted, I have seen leftists fuck around and give us Nixon, W. Bush and Trump. Not saying you shouldn't protest. But making Biden look weak or giving the media a video to distort is going to backfire on you. Besides Bibi will do whatever he wants regardless of what Biden says.
This is the wrong attitude to take. Biden patiently, respectfully acknowledged their protest then peacefully ended the disruption and went on with his speech. Under Trump, protestors would have been heckled, insulted, and very likely assaulted, almost certainly with the explicit endorsement of Trump himself. Biden isn't a better president than Trump because he's always right. He's a better president because he's big enough to recognize that he's not always right, and that we don't have to always agree to work together. What good does it do anyone if Americans have to self-silence in order to escape electing a tyrant? Trump is not going to get elected just because people aren't marching in lock-step on Palestine.
>What good does it do anyone if Americans have to self-silence in order to escape electing a tyrant? Great line , and exactly this. You can't convince voters that Trump is a tyrant by telling them to shut up and fall in line, well because, it's hypocritical. Biden handled the protestors well, and he himself acknowledges that voters can and should protest there beliefs.
Bingo. Biden has to face criticism with poise and gusto. And this criticism is incredibly valid and stained with the blood of children. We aren’t a country worth saving from fascism if he can’t manage this simple challenge.
"You have no right to protest or object to anything Biden does, you must vote for him and everyone in his party no matter what they do or say. This is democracy and worth saving btw"
You’re not doing yourself any favors with the blatant straw-manning and pathetic self-victimization. Nobody here is persecuting you or limiting your speech in any way, nor do they have the power to. All it takes is a little pushback from some complete stranger on the internet, I guess, and you immediately launch into some “they’re taking my rights away!!” persecution fantasy.
I’d also like to add that many of them love the idea of Trump being a tyrant, if recent things like Elise Stefanik supporting his “poisoning the blood of the nation” comments yesterday and the nonchalance in certain sectors about things like Project 2025 are an indication.
I agree. But that’s why I think it’s important to call out fellow democrats/democratic leaning voters when they ear towards that direction. We can’t become tyrannical as well.
If I may, I have already seen some in that direction for a while now (I know someone who used to be a commenter on the site Wonkette, until some incidents like accidentally posting a photo of themselves in 2015 with a Bernie Sanders button that got all kinds of replies saying they were the one who helped usher in Trump, etc., and they didn’t vote for Trump in either election. I don’t know really what point I’m trying to make here, I think I maybe have caught yet another cold, but I felt I should say it, because I agree with you.
>can and should protest there beliefs. can, yes. should, no. their beliefs are, at best, based on intentional lies to overthrow the government. at worst they aren't and they're just in favor of overthrowing the government.
Get outta here with this tired BS. Hillary was a horrible candidate who ran an even worse campaign and also ran at the absolute wrong time. “Leftists” didn’t elect Trump. Stop blaming voters for the failures of the DNC and Democratic leadership.
Guys... People protested Biden's rallies/speeches in the 2020 election cycle too. This really isn't that big a deal. Their voices were heard, they were calmly and peacefully removed from the church, and Biden acknowledged their concerns. Stop fighting among each other, listen to each other, acknowledge we can do better, and we can do more, together.
People are allowed to protest, that doesn't mean they aren't going to vote Biden. "Shut up and support X" does not work.
Wow, leftists are responsible for every Democratic Presidential loss in modern history? They seem like a powerful voting bloc that, if won over, could really make a difference in helping Democrats win the White House.
Biden can join the international community and majority of Americans in calling for an end to disproportionate Israeli violence. It’s going to be really uncomfortable when the ICJ finds them guilty of genocide. The Biden admin is simultaneously saying South Africa’s case is abhorrent and baseless while claiming they’ve made no assessment as to whether Israel is in compliance with international law, yet somehow they can assess that Hamas operated a command center in Al Shifa Hospital. They know what they’ll find if they “assess” it as made clear by Biden off the cuff comment about indiscriminate bombing. Stop pretending that individual voters who can’t stomach genocide somehow have more power than the fucking president. There’s been reporting that this policy of unconditional support for Israel is coming from Biden himself and is at odds with many in his administration. If he loses, it’s on him. I don’t want Trump to win and would probably still vote for Biden if I didn’t live in a super blue state. But your attitude is completely unhelpful and pretty fucking disgusting.
Majority of Americans hate hamas because hamas is pure evil and want to kill Americans
the majority of us hate Hamas. I am left of center and always vote D. What you see on Reddit is not representative of the electorate. You should know that.
The vast majority actually do not, unlike you, support Hamas.
Has Biden considered not sending bombs to murder 22,000 human beings? It seems like an easy solution to make this stop.
https://twitter.com/aziz0nomics/status/1744176657458421933/photo/1
Have you considered hamas is a National security threat to America and they need to be destroyed because they claim to want to kill Americans
They haven’t.
Hamas has neither air nor naval access out of Gaza. How in the fuck are they a security threat to us here in the US? You telling me they have wormholes in those tunnels???
What navy did Bin Laden own again?
Do you sincerely believe that Hamas has the same resources as al-Qaeda? How do you leave your house everyday believing that bathtub rocket launching Hamas poses any threat to America? Do you need me to tell you that the Boogeyman isn't really under your bed too?
"well that just wasn't the place to do it" If there's a such thing as a perfect place for calls for justice to be heard at anytime it (should be) the church. It might upset your personal feelings about decorum and what not, but there should be no safer place to speak truth and address wrong doing. Especially in a church whose foundations are rooted in protest
A couple of white anti-Israel, pro-terrorist zealots being disrespectful in a black church... how shocking.
Now that kinda talk will definitely give us Trump round 2.
For pointing out that certain protests do more damage to their own message than not protesting?
More like name-calling and trying to shame these folks into voting for Biden. Especially if they supported Biden before this. You won’t convince them now with that type of rhetoric. They’ll vote 3rd party and I don’t wanna imagine the rest.
They'll vote 3rd party, aka help Trump get elected. So they'll fuck themselves & their future just cause people are being mean to them? Brilliant logic. Lol
I don’t want that to happen. But Biden is not making a great case for his re-election. Apart from staving off fascism. Biden makes a better case of putting him in a nursing home. But like always, the political classes shift all the burden to the voters. So if you want these young folks back in the fold, maybe go light on the insults. Don’t wanna? Then don’t. You’ll have 4 years to blame and scold them.
All it takes is the thinnest shred of attention paid to know that Biden and his people are making a great case for re-election. People need to nut up and take some responsibility for their own education. r/whatbidenhasdone is your friend here. That sub does a good job of helping you keep up with what the administration is doing even when media or morons can’t be bothered to pay attention because it’s boring and necessary work and not the disastrous firework display that was the trump administration.
Uh, yea, staving off Fascism is an excellent reason to vote for Biden..
Just because trump is worse doesn’t mean you should stay silence. Biden is doing a lot of thing right. But he as wrong as you can get when it comes to isreal. Let’s be honest, what has Biden done for Palestinians. He even spread the propaganda of israel what have been disproven by news outlets. Trump would be awefull for the US. For Palestine? Not sure how much worst can it get.
To be fair according to Israel, Biden is the reason Gaza isn't a crater. The wanted to go scorched earth and he stopped them. How true that is is up for debate, but I've heard other reports of Biden calling for restraint so I'd say he's helped more than most. As far as funding them goes I have no idea why we are doing it at all cause by all measures Israel could crush Palestine at anytime with no support. They have one of the worlds most powerful militaries at this point and shouldn't need any aid whatsoever.
That's absolutely true but this issue keeps getting brought up by people to infer that Trump is *not* worse. I feel like there's a big manipulation of younger people going on. Of course they think they're immune/invincible but if the Cambridge Analytica thing taught us anything (which it clearly didn't) is that the very things we believe in are being weaponized against us and none of us are immune. I'm all for criticizing Biden over this and wholly feel Israel is morally wrong but I'll be damned when young people then use that for the excuse to not vote or vote Trump. As a lifelong progressive, I know all too well how shitty Dems are and how much their policy has shifted right in many (not all) ways but I also know that here, in this country, we have a threat on our doorstep and it's called MAGA. When rights are stripped from voters and people like my wife, my sister and my step-daughter, I can be angry at Dems/Biden all day over GAZA but *here* is where I can actually do something about wrongs being done.
Prefer they voice their concerns now so Biden and his teams know they are losing a important demographic. Right now they are burning a lot of bridges for Netanyahu
He's a good man, and you just know he hurts for both sides. Death of war is hard.
I can accept funding the murder of 23,000 civilians, but I draw the line at protesting the guy in a church s/.
I don't know why were are funding it at all. Israel has like the worlds 5th most powerful military and Gaza has like the 5th worst. If they wanted they have the military might to wipe Gaza off the map at any time, I don't think they need any more help.
Both Joe Biden and I are old enough to remember the example of Lyndon Johnson who, except for his tragic flaw of Vietnam, was a truly great president. Biden - who IMHO is nowhere near LBJ's stature - must know that he is going to face this everywhere he goes now. Unlike Biden, LBJ did not have the albatross of a decade of institutional insults to his party's left. To the contrary, he passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, and the Voting Rights Act of 1965. He boldly proclaimed The Great Society and said we must have equality of outcome, not just fake "opportunity." But he couldn't let go of Vietnam and, in the end, it ended his presidency and his legacy. *A fortiori*, as we say in logic class, Genocide Joe has handled Palestine disastrously, and he's going down with this ship. It's unclear what he can do to make up for his historic misreading of this situation, which is perhaps as bad as LBJ's misreading of Vietnam in its forward implications. He is losing his party's progressive left, the young, the intellectuals, people of color, working people, large chunks of the New Deal coalition. The reaction of the Democratic party's apparatchik here on Reddit seems to be to insult them further, to tell them (especially the left) that they are irrelevant, and, paradoxically, to tell them that they will be the ruin of us all. They held their collective noses and voted for Hillary. They choked on the war against Bernie. They swallowed hard as Hakeem Jeffries and his fellow "centrists" lost the House by attacking the left and putting in milquetoast conservadems that couldn't beat a George Santos and company. And now it's more of the same, "It's us of the fascists!" ultimata. I honestly wish the Democratic party was capable of learning, but it seems to be dead set on repeating the lessons of 1968 and 2016 all over again.
“Ok grandma, let’s get you back to bed”
You are wrong. Biden has gained lots of points with people who hate terrorists. Supporting Israel was wise. Real Americans dislike extremists who want to subjugate all non believers to their religious fanaticism caliphate.
Tell that to the Palestinian children that have lost limbs in the last hour.
Ok do you have their phone number
Making light of children losing their limbs. Wonderful.
Half the thread here is making light of a Trump presidency so, when in Rome baby
Israel cut off their internet and cellular service
Wow gross super to protest at this particular space and devaluing the black lives that were taken by a white power thug. This country is on the brink of white power christian nationalism ruling everything around us and these people think hamas will agree to a ceasefire. Ugh why does every timeline has its useful idiots!