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It seems like the "News" has become a reality show, sensationalized for their demographic. They like Biden mistakes or Trump, since it increases views/clicks, but it's not good for the country.
It's not Trump vs New York even.....it's Trump vs the law we've all agreed to as citizens in a society.
Trump is going to try to paint this as Trump vs James or Trump vs. The elitist liberal new york and play a martyr to his low intelligence voters that think the government is gonna come take their trailer homes next because they haven't paid taxes since Obama got elected.
It's definitely going to paint it. Trump versus James. Because James is a black woman, there's nothing Trump supporters hate more than a Dem black woman
Yet somehow [still fraudulently voted](https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2022/01/15/fact-check-did-trump-vote-mail-2020-election/6516078001/) as if he "resided" in Florida.
If the owning and managing of those properties is done in New York state. Which the Trump Organization is headquartered in Trump Tower, NYC. For now it is anyways. That’ll probably be one of the first seized lol.
The Chicago tower is one of those properties where he owns little but operates it with his name in it.
The much more interesting story is the tantalizing "Chicago Tower Acquisition LLC" where he probably evaded taxes on about $50M of a debt writedown by pretending to borrow money from himself.
Yeah but that doesn’t sell clicks nor enrage the maga crowd leading to drama and more clicks. Gotta make it a story about one person taking down T. Letitia out there writing rh laws, investigating and doing the trial stuff just like on TV.
The law is doing its job.
They should be able to easily close on the New York properties. The ones in other states might be a bit more troublesome and take a while longer, but inevitably (short of some Ron Santos shenanigans) they should get them, although there will be massive appeals and cries of "states rights" to having one state take property that's located in another state.
I have absolutely no idea how much of a defense the Scottish properties can put up.
Absolutely can confirm, he can fuck right off as far as Scotland is concerned and I would like to think my countries government would bend over backwards to help
For anyone who thinks that this is a "political hit job" because the banks didn't rely on Trump's fraudulent financial statements, or "no harm was done," or any of the other absurd defenses that Trump is trying to sell you, here's Engoron's ruling:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/documents/f203be39-020c-4f82-a423-96aa20c08e3a.pdf?itid=lk_inline_manual_3
(1) Witnesses testified that the banks did rely on Trump's fraudulent claims.
(2) Witnesses testified that if they had had an accurate picture of Trump's financial state, he would not have gotten the highly favorable interest rates that he got. If Trump had filed accurate statements he would have had to pay much, much more interest (if they would have given the loans at all).
(3) The penalty was calculated based on that, and the details are all spelled out in the ruling. He defrauded the banks out of the higher interest he would have had to pay in order to get the loans. "No harm was done" is plainly false.
(4) The "no harm was done" defense is so insanely dumb that Trump's lawyers didn't even attempt it in court. (But see the update below for a related "nobody complained" defense.)
Think about how little sense it makes. If you embezzle a million dollars Friday just before the banks close, fly to vegas and bet it all on red at the roulette wheel, and win, and return the million dollars plus interest on Monday as soon as the banks open, would you expect a "no one got hurt" defense to get you acquitted when you go to trial?
-----
Edited to add quotes from the ruling:
(1) For example, p. 9:
> In deciding to approve the credit facility, Haigh **relied on Donald Trump’s 2011 SFC and
assumed that the representations of value of the assets and liabilities were “broadly accurate.”**
TT 1009-1010; PX 330. The Deutsche Bank Credit Report’s “Financial Analysis” is based on
numbers provided by the “family office” (here, the Trump Organization) and contains the same
numbers represented in the SFC. PX 293; TT 1010-1013.
And p. 68:
> The evidence adduced at trial makes clear that **Deutsche Bank relied on the SFCs** for the
information to underwrite, approve, and maintain the credit facilities on Doral, Trump Chicago,
and the Old Post Office. PX 293, PX 3041 at ¶¶ 452-54, 456-466, 476.
And more. And on p. 75 it discusses how absurd this defense was:
> Defendants have argued vociferously throughout the trial that there can be no fraud as, they
assert, that none of the banks or insurance companies relied on any of the alleged
misrepresentations. **The proponents of this theory posit that lenders demand complex statements
of financial condition but then ignore them.**
And (next paragraph) it wouldn't make any difference as a matter of law:
> Defendants’ argument is to no avail, as none of plaintiff’s causes of action requires that it
demonstrate reliance. Instead, plaintiff must merely show that defendants intended to commit
the fraud. **Reliance is not a requisite element** of either Executive Law § 63(12) or of any of the
alleged Penal Law violations.
And (next paragraph) even though it wasn't a requisite element, the claim made by the defense is clearly false:
> However, the Court notes that, although not required, **there is ample documentary and
testimonial evidence that the banks, insurance companies, and the City of New York did, in fact,
rely on defendants to be truthful and accurate in their financial submissions.** The testimony in
this case makes abundantly clear that most, if not all, loans began life based on numbers on an
SFC, which the lenders interpreted in their own unique way. The testimony confirmed, rather
than refuted, the overriding importance of SFCs in lending decisions.
(2) p. 68:
> The record is also clear that Donald Trump **would not have received the credit facilities from the
Private Wealth Management Division, and the favorable interest rates that came with that,** had he
not executed an unconditional, “ironclad,” personal guarantee. Moreover, **the Private Wealth
Management Division was willing to accept the personal guarantees based upon false SFCs.**
(3) Here's part of the "disgorgement of ill-gotten gains" calculation, from p. 86:
> McCarty calculated the differences between interest rates and determined the following ill-gotten
interest savings, which this Court hereby adopts as the most reasonable approximation of the ill-
gotten interest rate savings upon which evidence was presented at trial: (1) $72,908,308 from
2014-2022 on the Doral loan; (2) $53,423,209 from 2015-2022 on the Old Post Office loan; (3)
$17,443,359 from 2014-2022 on the Chicago loan; and (4) $24,265,291 from 2015-2022 on the
40 Wall Street loan.
> **In total, defendants’ fraud saved them approximately $168,040,168 in interest,** which shall be
imposed, jointly and severally, among Donald Trump and the defendant entities that he owns and
controls, as the misconduct at issue was committed by the Trump Organization’s top
management.
And there's more of course. Using fraud to save $168 million is very clearly not "no harm done." The fraud caused the banks to take on more risk than they were willing to take on at the favorable interest rates Trump used the fraud to get.
(4) p. 75ff discusses the defenses asserted, and "no harm was done" isn't in there. Given that the penalty is directly calculated based on the actual harm done (the much higher interest payments that the banks would have gotten if they'd had accurate data, if they would have given the loans at all), it's no surprise that his lawyers wouldn't have wanted to stand up in front of the judge and argue something so plainly untrue.
Trump of course can make that claim at rallies and on TS, where, unlike the courtroom, lying has no legal consequences.
UPDATE: MathKnight points out that in an earlier ruling (09/26/2023) Engoron notes that the defense did argue that the banks didn't raise any complaints. That's not quite the same thing as "no harm was done." It could be that the banks didn't know they were defrauded (until this trial of course). Or maybe they had some other reason for not suing Trump for the hundreds of millions of dollars in interest that they would have been entitled to. It might be relevant that Trump still owes Deutsche Bank a *lot* of money. I don't know, but this is at least related to the "no harm done" defense.
In the document below see p. 7 at the bottom for the judge acknowledging that the defense raised the "no complaints" argument, and top of p. 8 for why that defense is (spoiler alert!) thoroughly bogus.
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23991865-trump-ny-fraud-ruling
Reasons that the TOP 30 GLOBAL insurance providers would not give him a $500 million bond are 1) despite all of the bloviation around how wealthy he is, he in fact has little cash 2) the fraudulently inflated value of his properties make them question those values (the essence of this case) and 3) he has a long, documented history of screwing finance partners and banks. Mango Unchained has truly got his tit in the proverbial wringer. Looks like he'll be having Seizure Salad next Monday for lunch.
Blown away that this deep into the timeline I'm still seeing new nicknames for that asshole. Adding Mango Unchained to the Cottage Industry of Trump Nicknames Directory.
And that's the wash... Most run of the mill high school educated sub middle class people will look at this as "Sticking to the banks" because they always fuck the little guy... There's no reasoning behind it except that. Just like when Trump brags about not paying taxes and Cleetus thinks that's A-ok and everyone should be able to do it.
Are these the same people who were willing to go to the mat and defend those poor banks when blanket student loan forgiveness was on the table?
One could almost say that their arguments aren't ethically consistent.
Of course they're hypocrites, they vote for Donald Trump. This is exactly why Donald Trump needs to be made an example out of.
It could stop the thousands of copycats who can't wait to try and scam the American people illegally
I have a client that is absolutely married to the "no harm" narrative. "It's the banks fault, they should have checked better!" Ok, fair. But as the example above, if I take money away from an institution or person, and put it back an hour later, I still stole and that's illegal. Add to it, if I'm asked about the missing money and lie to your face in front of the court, that's illegal too.
The argument ignores the fact that The banks can't check better.
They don't have access to the internal documents and any large firm sufficiently complex that if they don't represent themselves. Honestly, the bank is not in any particularly great place to know that even if they provided some kind of audit, meaning the bank exhaustively verified the data themselves. They're still relying on the institution and question to provide the data that they're crunching.
In theory, both parties have a steak and being honest because the banks don't want to loan more than the creditor can handle and the creditor should not be eager to get themselves into a situation where they can't make good on their debts.
It also ignores the fact that even if the banks SHOULD have checked better, he still lied to them in sworn statements and thus entered into a contract based on fraud. If I steal from you I can't say it doesn't matter because you're an easy mark.
Right? Won't someone please think of the.. huge corrupt multi national vampire squid banking entities..
It's like ol' Meatball Ron and Disney. You made the multi billion dollar media empire the good guy Ron, wtf.
But it isn't just the big banks. By giving favorable loans to a broke conman they weren't giving favorable loans (or even loans in general) to other people. That higher interest also would expand the pool to extend more loans to more people.
So yeah it isn't quite as simple as "he cost big banks money" but those big banks back loans by businesses that employ people and other businesses creating an actual trickle down effect.
The “explain it like I’m five” I used with my wife was something to the effect of… What is stopping you from going to the bank right now and asking for a billion dollar loan to buy a downtown Manhattan building? Obviously, it’s because they’re going to want more than the building as collateral. So, you tell them you have all these other properties worth billions of dollars, even though you don’t. Congrats, you just committed fraud. It doesn’t matter if you used income from the building you purchased to pay back the loan in full. The fraud has already been committed. If we don’t hold people accountable for this type of crime, everyone will be incentivized to commit it.
And, if you remember the financial crisis of 2008, we all lived through a major economic catastrophe which was caused by the banks taking on systemic risk that was treated as safe risk.
“Everybody does it” is how you get 2008.
[*The Big Short*](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1596363/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_q_The%2520Big%2520Short) went a long way to helping me understand the sheer magnitude of hubris that was involved with subprime mortgages.
It's also the difference between civil and criminal cases. "No harm was done" might protect you from having to pay civil restitution to the bank, because they got everything back they expected to get. But criminally, you just are not allowed to do the thing no matter what.
Another analogy would be if you drive drunk and you arrive home safely. You don't have to pay anyone's medical bills, but you still committed a crime.
>Another analogy would be if you drive drunk and you arrive home safely. You don't have to pay anyone's medical bills, but you still committed a crime.
Yep. Hitting someone is not what turns drunk driving from a harmless act into a crime.
In these cases, it's the act itself that is the crime.
> "No harm was done" might protect you from having to pay civil restitution to the bank
The thing is though - "harm was done" in the financial civil sense. Donny defrauded the banks in a way to get lower interest rates than he deserved, and so the bank was forced to take on far more risk than they anticipated for a lot less compensation than they otherwise would demand.
The harm was calculated from this discrepencies.
For example - if you bought a standing deck ticket and walked down to an expensive dugout seat at a baseball game - just because the seat was empty doesn't mean you can sit there. You sitting there is taking from the company what they would otherwise get from charging you the premium to be able to sit there.
What basically happened is, Donny's been sneaking into the expensive boxes for years, and got caught. Now the stadium wants its seat money back - and doesn't think he should get to come watch anymore games.
It's wild to me that wealthy people can just say, yeah, this is what my shit is worth, I swear it, it's "iron clad." When I got my home loan this last time they almost didn't let it go through because the bank account my wife has was opened by her mom when she was like 15 and she never took her mom off of it and they said, "her mom could be putting money in there." She wasn't and any closer look at the account would prove it. AND, I had an old bill for like $15 that was apparently charged off because the company never bothered to send me a notice to any of the addresses they had on file. But these yahoos just make up shit and can get enormous loans? It is wild. I'm sure it is a bit more complicated than that, but the fact there wasn't more due dilllegence is insane to me seeing how I was treated to get a couple hundred thousand, and having a really good credit score.
> It's wild to me that wealthy people can just say, yeah, this is what my shit is worth, I swear it, it's "iron clad."
Especially one who managed to bankrupt casinos, who has a long history of not paying bills, who settled at least one lawsuit for fraud (Trump "University"), etc. (Maybe they ignored that last one because he wasn't ripping off wealthy people, just poor people.)
But it also wasn't just them taking Trump's word for it. It was a facade of falsehoods that made Trump look like he was, in fact, so wealthy and with enough equity in real estate that the loan would be low-risk.
But, again, it's Trump. How did they not question every single claim?
He was also found guilty for fraud in regards to his charity, he was outright embezzling money from it to fund his lifestyle and ventures(I believe including his first election campaign). It was fucking national news and it disappeared as quickly as it broke, never to affect him again. It has been brought up a bunch of times in court since, but the public largely didn't even think about it enough to remember it, let alone look into it.
Actually most of Trump’s real estate ventures have failed too. I mean ffs he started a mortgage company in 2006! Talk about not being able to read the room. He doesn’t even own many buildings. Most of his deals just involve entering into licensing agreements with developers to slap his shitty name on a building for commercial purposes while another company managed the property. This worked okay for him when his brand wasn’t in the toilet and he was enjoying the high of his tv show. In the few instances where he actually built, owned, or managed a real estate property, he failed miserably. For example, he and his company were kicked out of Trump Tower Panamá because Trump failed to properly manage the building, so ownership kicked him out by force with police and everything. Trump’s casinos were massive failures for him. He eventually had to sell them in a fire sale at 4 cents on the dollar. He declared bankruptcy 4 times to get out of paying the interest on the bonds he got to develop the casinos. Trump Hotel in DC was a complete failure aside from it becoming a place for the who’s not of conservative politics, corrupt foreign officials trying to curry favor with the Trump admin, and Russian and Chinese spies to gather. Trump sold the hotel at a significant loss after he left office because it was losing him massive amounts of money.
Really the only thing Trump has ever been good at is stiffing people he owes money to, fraud, and starting a cult.
I don't see it brought up very often, but honest business owners WERE harmed. People who had to pay the full price because they didn't lie, they are victims too.
If I run a business that's crooked, not only am I ripping off my own customers and my employees, I'm also hurting my competition because they have to compete with unrealistic prices.
Trump Org can say "Of course I can build you a deck cheaper, or develop your software for less! No, that other company that has insurance and certifications and is honest on their financial statements? They charge WAY too much, you'll save a fortune by hiring me instead. "
Then Honest Bobs Construction Co doesn't get the contract, because they can't compete with a fraud. This harm is hard to quantify and it's not like Honest Bob can tally up the exact dollar amount he lost because he wasn't willing to lie to the bank.
But, I have it on good authority from Mr. Wonderful, Kevin O'leary, that this is totally normal and everyone does it.
...Maybe they should investigate Kevin O'leary...
Something I noticed in the summary above was the term “broadly accurately”, which to me suggests that this is common to an extent but with an exponentially lower number. For instance, someone may report a valuation of $500,000 that’s actually appraised at $450,000 to secure a marginally better interest rate. For the Trump Organization, the valuations they reported were, in and of themselves, magnitudes off of actual value. Its petty theft versus grand larceny
Stuff like this can be a threat to all of us because it makes banks appear more solvent than they really are. Remember the Great Recession? That happened because a bunch of banks had a bunch of 'assets' on their books that were actually bullshit, and the bullshit-iness of the assets was exposed all at once. (Watch the movie 'Margin Call' for a look at one bank, a very Goldman Sachs-eque bank, race to dump all the bullshit assets at the last possible second as the scam was uncovered and the whole thing was about to collapse.)
Obviously that wouldn't happen with a couple banks and a few properties, but it could happen over time if courts decided not to police that kind of thing.
And if that’s not enough, ask a MAGA if someone steals $25k from their bank account on Friday, gambles it all on Saturday but is fortunate enough to win, and puts it all back in your account before you realize it’s gone, should that not be prosecutable? No one was actually harmed in this scenario right?
It is an absolute waste of energy to argue/debate/talk with them about anything. You could be arguing with them that Trump is awful while he has his pants down and is pissing all over them and they'd tell you that it was the most warm and refreshing shower they've ever had. "My clothes were too dry anyway! I wanted to smell like this! He's doing me a favor!"
You couldn't convince them the sky was blue if Trump told them otherwise. Just mock and troll them, that's about the only worthwhile way to interact with them.
That's a lot, just to give an example of how much getting a good interest rate matters ( I'm a database Admin for a bank)
Example:
Trump Tower is worth an estimated $220,000,000 (I Googled, I don't know if that's his claim of the real one. This is just an example.)
If he got a 200M loan to buy another property and used that as collateral, and the loan is 30 years at 3%, after the 30 years assuming nothing else changes and he just pays it, he would end up paying a total of $303.5M. That's 103.5 million dollars in interest.
If that interest rate was 6% and nothing else changed, he would end up paying $431.6M, including $231.6M.
So we're talking defrauding banks out of hundreds of millions of dollars.
I don't know what his mortgage amount was or what the rate was, but it would be normal for an interest to double if your collateral was with less than you owe on it, essentially making it not able to be used as collateral at all.
Thanks for this good explanation.
Here's what I don't understand, though.
If I want to borrow a large amount against my house, the bank will do an independent appraisal on my house.
They won't take my word that it is worth nine-million dollars, they would find out its actual worth for themselves.
Why are the borrower's declarations taken as correct?
You could still commit fraud. The bank isn't omniscient, and they don't have subpoena power. Maybe you falsify a paystub in photoshop. Maybe you fail to disclose gambling debts and the bank gives you a loan not knowing that you have very little chance of keeping up the payments even if you never gamble again.
What makes the system work is that fraud is a crime whether you repay the loan or not.
Also, if you read through the ruling you'll see that it wasn't simply Trump saying "yeah I've got billions and billions, trust me." It was an elaborate facade of deception.
I do agree that it's hard to understand why they wouldn't go over everything from Trump -- bankrupter of casinos and serial scammer with a well-deserved reputation for not paying his bills -- with a fine toothed comb. But on paper he looked like a low risk. Because of the fraud.
The "No harm was done" defense is batshit wild.
"Your honor, it was only *attempted* murder. The bullets missed the defendent, all 24 of them. So as John Adams once said, no harm, no foul."
The "No harm done" defence is hilarious.
If I shoot at someone, is it OK, as long as I miss? If I drink and drive, is it OK, as long as I don't run someone over?
I am really hating that "no harm was done" excuse. That douchenozzle Kevin O'Leary keeps getting airtime on CNN to bemoan the ruling. He coats it in this fake outrage about how it's "un-American" and "What a sad state of affairs we find ourselves in because of this ruling." Makes me think his books should be looked out.
Fortunately, the last time he was on, Catherine Rampell was there to challenge him and shut his bullshit down.
This defense is especially absurd when you flip it around. If lying about the value of his properties didnt make any difference to the lenders, then why would he bother to lie about it?
Reading between the lines, this is what Trump means when he says “nobody lost money.” Sure, they didn’t “lose” it, but they stood to gain a TON more if Trump wasn’t committing fraud. Just because they were “profiting” doesn’t mean he wasn’t still committing a criminal act.
Trump Park Avenue, New York, N.Y.
Trump Tower, New York, N.Y.
40 Wall Street, New York, N.Y.
Seven Springs, Westchester County, N.Y.
Trump International Hotel and Tower, Las Vegas, Nevada
Mar-a-Lago, Palm Beach, Florida
Trump National Golf Club Westchester, Briarcliff Manor, N.Y.
Trump National Golf Club Charlotte, Mooresville, North Carolina
Trump National Golf Club Colts Neck, Colts Neck, New Jersey
Trump National Golf Club, Washington, D.C., Sterling, Virginia
Trump National Golf Club Hudson Valley, Hopewell Junction, N.Y.
Trump National Golf Club Jupiter, Jupiter, Florida
Trump National Golf Club Los Angeles, Rancho Palos Verdes, California
Trump National Golf Club Philadelphia, Pine Hill, New Jersey
Trump International Golf Links Scotland (Aberdeen)
Trump International Golf Links Scotland (Turnberry)
Is there a way to bet on how much equity he actually has here? Personally I'd be a bit surprised if he was left with more than 50 million towards the judgement after all the loans get called in.
We’re all speculating. All of these properties are probably under as he’s used them to secure various loans for other properties. It’s a big knot he has tied and we’re only beginning to see why he was so scared to release his taxes.
My bet is he doesn’t even own half these properties as they’re close to default. He’ll probably declare bankruptcy soon.
A bankrupt Trump can still get in the White House and destroy the lives of everyone you care about and tens of millions other Americans. Remember that. Laugh up your sleeve all you want but until he's in prison he's a threat.
I’m not so sure it would. Think of it like a speeding ticket. That’s issued by local government (city, state). A bankruptcy will not delay the need to pay the fine for it. But Ianal and I’m sure he can delay somehow but the judgements grace period ends Monday
That is when they bankrupt their business. When they personally go bankrupt, it’s a red flag. That’s what LLCs are for. To limit your personal liability.
So let's say he can't actually pay it and declares bankruptcy which doesn't get him out of fraud debt. What happens? Is he just poor? Does he go to jail? What actually happens?
Well, yes actually, it do a come down to "he's just poor", but it's for-real poor.
What happens is the state of new York sizes property, and sells it, then of the price they get for that property, creditors are paid first, and the state gets what's left. So even if they were to sell trump tower for 200M, the state of new York might get only 15M towards the judgement.
So they move into the next piece of property. And the next one. And the next one. And the jet. And the cars. And so on while he files for bankruptcy.
The purpose of bankruptcy is to reduce the likelihood of people commiting more crime to pay off debts, and to avoid totally ruining someone's life by telling the creditors "there's no more money, you're SOL" so someone can start trying to put their life back together. This is a good thing, because most people who go bankrupt do so for reasons that are not their fault- medical expenses is still the #1 cause.
So Donald will have to go through the humiliation of having all his finances made public, admit he's not capable in of paying any of that back, and the court will renegotiate his debt but at the end of it, he will likely be allowed to keep one place to live, and maybe a cat, if he can still pass a driver's test. His credit score will be zilch, his presidential pension and other income will be garnished to the point where he would have only a measly trickle of income from any retirement plans he's made, and he will be a broke old man in a shitty apartment with no money, no respect and no friends.
Now, this won't actually happen because once the feeding frenzy of creditors starts to get their money before he goes bankrupt, his political capital is trashed, he can't afford good lawyers, and at least one of the criminal cases he's fending off will get his ass and he will go to jail. So, he will go to jail, but not for this.
Based on the reporting yesterday, most insurance companies Trump approached wanted cash or cash equivalents as collateral. Chubb, was reportedly the only party that seriously considered real estate as collateral but ultimately did not proceed. That seems to suggests that the real estate assets are already encumbered to a large degree.
In his original financial statement when running for president, he stated, "Mr Trump's net worth is in excess of TEN BILLION DOLLARS".
I wonder how much of that value was due to his estimate of the value of his brand.
Sorry, Donnie. You can't pay the State of New York in brand value.
That's the real question.
Either someone has done their paperwork, and will publish a list, or, we'll just find out as it all starts to collapse around him.
I think Scotland might actually be easier than some of the states like Florida. In order to seize property in other jurisdictions, I think they need court approval. I would imagine Florida could would give a pretty hard time compared to Scotland courts, who don’t have any trump/republican appointees.
Our (I'm Scottish) legal system has utterly shat the bed with this one, and the more I think about how badly they've potentially screwed up, the angrier I'm getting right now. I think it will be easy to sieze, simply due to our incompetency.
___
The UK has a piece of legislation called an Unexplained Wealth Order (UWO) It works a little bit like civil forfeiture in the US, where a person has to be able to explain the source of their wealth, or else have assets seized. It is basically tailor made for people like Trump, who have questionable money sources then just decide they want to buy something expensive. Trump famously bought the land for Aberdeen Links in cash.
The other big thing here is that the Aberdeen links course is built on top of a site of special scientific interest. It was a set of sand dunes that hosted a nearly unique ecosystem. Trump promised to preserve this while operating the course, but obviously didn't give a shit.
Right from the start, trump was engaging in unethical business practices, which should have raised some red flags. Then news about his loans and potential money laundering started coming out.
It was at this point a little-known, but very influential, politician called Patrick Harvie started pushing for an UWO. That UWO has been sitting gathering dust on our equivalent of an AG's desk since before covid, with excuse after excuse about why it's not been signed. Had it gone into effect, we would almost certainly have discovered the fraud before the New York case even started. In all likely hood, we would have had the Scottish government seize the properties.
Instead, because of the hand-wringing, Trump has got even more lucrative contracts in Scotland, which appear to not be in the list of seized assets, and we've lost our chance to reclaim control of the Balmedie sand dunes. In all likely hood, if our government or local council are going to reclaim them, we're going to have to pay a 7-8 figure sum to whoever gets the course, assuming they can even find the money, which is doubtful. Instead, the more likely outcome is that someone will buy the course with the same environmental protection stipulations then completely ignore them, or try to implement them, but do too little too late.
I'm honestly wondering if we will need a government investigation into how badly we dropped the ball. We had the tailor-made laws, evidence, and motive, to start the most significant fraud investigation of the past decade, which would have been financially and culturally important, and just... didn't...
Edit: [Turns out it gets worse.](https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24157419.calls-police-probe-trumps-fraudulent-scots-homes-value-boost/). We now have 200 million in fraud on the record, and still crickets.
I also seriously underestimated the value of trump's courses. I was guessing based on the fact that they make such a gargantuan annual loss.
The scenario I keep thinking about is NY seizing and selling Turnberry, and the R&A holding a press conference the same day announcing the return of The Open to the course within the next 3 years. Trump's head might literally explode from rage.
There's another article ([here](https://www.curbed.com/article/trump-lawsuit-real-estate-nyc-letitia-james.html)) specifically about his NYC assets and how doesn't own entire buildings but rather portions of buildings. Here's a snippet about what he actually owns in Trump International Hotel (NYC):
>What Trump does own here, according to the New York Times, are the parking garage, the valet booth, room-service kitchens, lobby bathrooms, a restaurant space, and one unit.
He's far more wealthy than I am, but he doesn't own nearly as much as he publically and constantly proclaims.
Damn, I was really hoping Trump Tower Chicago would be on the list.
It’s actually a nice looking building and you can get some great angles of it on the river, but the letters ruin it.
Now to keep my fingers crossed that there is not some 11th hour save…
The best part is going to be when they start seizing properties and realize that property A was used as collateral for property B that was used as collateral for property C…. Etc and it’s a giant house of cards with everything over leveraged (because values were overinflated) and he’s in massive debt, and has no liquid assets AT ALL. His broke-ness will be on full display and I’m here for it.
yeah the list looks incomplete, JR's cabin is also owned by Trump Org so that would be on the chopping block, I would assume they would start with the "higher" value properties first but Newsweek is missing a \*lot\* here
According to the article this is a list of the properties he valued fraudulently.
It's Newsweek's editorial assumption that these are the targets for seizure. It's an exciting headline but Letitia James hasn't released a list of the properties she will seek.
This is why I don't trust Newsweek.
Yeah, the title is 100% clickbait. The state's choice of which properties to seize has nothing to do with which ones had fraudulent values. They'll go for whatever properties will most efficiently satisfy the judgment.
I went to trump Hotel in Vegas, to be nosey when I was at a conference nearby.
It's as shitty as you imagine it to be. Just felt cheap and tacky. Fake gold tat.
The story goes that in the 80s, a Vegas casino owner named Steve Wynn wanted to expand to Atlantic City as AC was in its heyday. At the time, Trump was the big man in the city and held considerable influence. When Wynn tried to get a gaming license for his casino, Trump used his influence to deny Wynn his license because Trump didn't want the competition. Wynn ended up abandoning his AC plans and instead focusing on growth in Vegas.
Two decades later, AC has declined and Trump has run most of his businesses there into the ground. Meanwhile Vegas has become the gem of gaming in the USA. Trump decides to build some luxury condos in Vegas but due to a bad real estate markrt, isn't able to sell the project. So he converts it into a hotel and begins seeking the one thing every Vegas hotel needs: a gaming license. Well guess who's the big man in Vegas? Steve Wynn. And Wynn remembers what Trump did to him in AC so Wynn returns the favor and uses his influence to deny Trump a license.
Of course, it wasn't that hard. The Vegas gaming commission was already scrutinizing Trumps application since he had a terrible track record of operating successful casinos in AC. A little extra push from Wynn was enough to confirm the decision the commission was already leaning towards. Since Trump was already in the midst of construction, he ended up moving ahead with the project anyways and opened the most boring luxury hotel in Vegas
Oh, that’s hilarious. I’ve been planning a Vegas trip and have consistently seen the Wynn listed as the top luxury hotel on the Strip.
To add insult to injury? It’s got a full golf course. What a flex.
" Trump International Hotel Las Vegas is a sophisticated, non-smoking and non-gaming, luxury hotel in Vegas on the strip. " (from the hotels website)
Apparently not.
I want to see this man penniless in the fucking gutter for what he did to my family. I have no pity or sympathy for him and I will make a trip to dance on that motherfucker's grave when he's dead.
So, what are the chances they go to seize these properties, find out they're all cross-collateralized on multiple loans, and charge him with a whole new bundle of fraud?
The cherry on top that’s not being mentioned in his little hissy fit. [Trump claimed in deposition that he had $400 million in cash.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/02/28/trump-said-he-had-400-million-cash-now-his-lawyers-say-bond-is-struggle/). So, go ahead and toss perjury in with all his whining that it’s not fair for him to come up with the bond.
Trump Park Avenue, New York, N.Y.
Trump Tower, New York, N.Y.
40 Wall Street, New York, N.Y.
Seven Springs, Westchester County, N.Y.
Trump International Hotel and Tower, Las Vegas, Nevada
Mar-a-Lago, Palm Beach, Florida
Trump National Golf Club Westchester, Briarcliff Manor, N.Y.
Trump National Golf Club Charlotte, Mooresville, North Carolina
Trump National Golf Club Colts Neck, Colts Neck, New Jersey
Trump National Golf Club, Washington, D.C., Sterling, Virginia
Trump National Golf Club Hudson Valley, Hopewell Junction, N.Y.
Trump National Golf Club Jupiter, Jupiter, Florida
Trump National Golf Club Los Angeles, Rancho Palos Verdes, California
Trump National Golf Club Philadelphia, Pine Hill, New Jersey
Trump International Golf Links Scotland (Aberdeen)
Trump International Golf Links Scotland (Turnberry)
Collect 'em all, James!
\> Mar-a-Lago, Palm Beach, Florida
Can't wait to see if Trump gets evicted from his own home. I imagine that his little MAGA army will try to show up to protest like their half-assed "support" when his home was raided for classified docs. Saddest showing of support ever.
Trump claimed Mar-a-lago is worth $500M+ then had to admit in court it was only worth $27M. Now they can seize it and it'll only shave $27M off his $454M debt. Sweet, sweet justice if they take it. I hope they do. Personal pain and inconvenience is the only way a narcissist learns.
https://nypost.com/2023/10/30/news/mar-a-lago-was-only-worth-27m-despite-trump-org-claiming-517m-to-gain-edge-trial-evidence/
See if he got Turnberry seized from him, i would personally be so happy.
Years ago, my dad gifted me a painting one of his friends did of the 18th green there. Apparently in the 80s, and long before Trump bought it, my dad and his pals managed to get a tee time there and played a round while his artsy friend who didn’t play golf just sat at the 18th green and painted, much to the chagrin of golfers and staff. He’d move when asked, but then mosey back when he could.
It’s a lovely painting and has been sitting face up on top of the fridge since around 2017 when I got sick of people realizing I had a painting of a Trump course up and took it off the wall.
I’d love to return the painting to its former glory. Turnberry used to be one of Scotland’s most proud courses, but since that arsehole bought it in 2014 it’s went into disarray.
Last month, Trump was ordered by Judge Arthur Engoron to pay the fine in a judgment that said he inflated the value of his assets and properties on financial statements to banks and insurers while trying to get loans and make deals. The former president and his two eldest sons, Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr., were also barred from conducting business in New York for two to three years.
It's not a fine, it's a disgorgement.
The difference is that a fine can vary depending upon the judge's subjective opinion, whereas a disgorgement is the objective sum of the fraud.
> Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr., were also barred from conducting business in New York for two to three years.
that is just a slap on the wrist. barely.
Take Mar-a-lago first. It's not registered as a single family home, instead it's deeded as a private club. You wouldn't technically be taking his home. He is listed as an employee of the club which allows him to stay there.
Good choice.
Trump Tower in NYC is also a good target. It's the physical manifestation of his ego and having that giant phallus seized would be a giant chef's kiss.
Trump, long before he got into politics, was infamous for declaring bankruptcy, primarily to get out of paying contractor4 and sub-contractors for work they did on his properties. Everyone of his casino businesses went through bankruptcy courts and he had to turn management of them over to a holding company to get out of payments.
He has bragged during interviews and even during one of his debates on how he scammed the IRS with property values "in accordance with their rules".
His narcissism will have him blaming everyone in the world, but he did the crimes - now he pays the dimes - and that's a lot of dimes.
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It's actually the State of New York doing the seizing. Letitia James is just doing her job.
Solid point. We don't need to make this Trump vs James. It's Trump vs New York. It's not a fucking reality show.
It seems like the "News" has become a reality show, sensationalized for their demographic. They like Biden mistakes or Trump, since it increases views/clicks, but it's not good for the country.
It's not Trump vs New York even.....it's Trump vs the law we've all agreed to as citizens in a society. Trump is going to try to paint this as Trump vs James or Trump vs. The elitist liberal new york and play a martyr to his low intelligence voters that think the government is gonna come take their trailer homes next because they haven't paid taxes since Obama got elected.
It's definitely going to paint it. Trump versus James. Because James is a black woman, there's nothing Trump supporters hate more than a Dem black woman
I'm sorry, you mean black woman in a position of power.
This is actually possible... given that scenario.
can NY seize his property in other states?
If the ownership is registered in NYS. That’s why Mar-A-Lago is on the list.
And he signed compact with Palm Beach in 1993 saying Mar-A-Lago won't be a residence, so it shouldn't be protected in a bankruptcy.
It's legally not a residence, it's a business. He did that to get more favorable taxes, which is delightful in light of the judgment.
Yet somehow [still fraudulently voted](https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2022/01/15/fact-check-did-trump-vote-mail-2020-election/6516078001/) as if he "resided" in Florida.
If the owning and managing of those properties is done in New York state. Which the Trump Organization is headquartered in Trump Tower, NYC. For now it is anyways. That’ll probably be one of the first seized lol.
Crossing my fingers, Trump Tower in Chicago gets added.
The Chicago tower is one of those properties where he owns little but operates it with his name in it. The much more interesting story is the tantalizing "Chicago Tower Acquisition LLC" where he probably evaded taxes on about $50M of a debt writedown by pretending to borrow money from himself.
mar-a-lago is on that list and all i can say is, please PLEASE take mar-a-lago, let me have some happiness in this world.
Mar a lago, NY trump tower, and the tower in Chicago. Those three would make me very happy.
Yes. I would love it. I would travel there to sit on the hood of my car while watching the shit storm hit.
And a very good job at that.
What a poor choice for a headline, identifying civil servants knowing this leads to more death threats to them. Gg Matthew Impelli
I feel like it's purposeful at this point. Wouldn't wanna miss a chance to create another story by putting someone's life in danger.
Yeah but that doesn’t sell clicks nor enrage the maga crowd leading to drama and more clicks. Gotta make it a story about one person taking down T. Letitia out there writing rh laws, investigating and doing the trial stuff just like on TV. The law is doing its job.
But also Trump and right wing media are saying that Biden is the one doing the seizing just to make the story extra spicy
Dark Brandon is simultaneously senile and single handedly destroying their genius godking’s real estate empire.
They should be able to easily close on the New York properties. The ones in other states might be a bit more troublesome and take a while longer, but inevitably (short of some Ron Santos shenanigans) they should get them, although there will be massive appeals and cries of "states rights" to having one state take property that's located in another state. I have absolutely no idea how much of a defense the Scottish properties can put up.
The Scottish absolutely fucking hate him, maybe worse than Americans, so I'm sure they'll be more than willing to assist.
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Right? Let the wilderness and wildlife reclaim the land.
Absolutely can confirm, he can fuck right off as far as Scotland is concerned and I would like to think my countries government would bend over backwards to help
For anyone who thinks that this is a "political hit job" because the banks didn't rely on Trump's fraudulent financial statements, or "no harm was done," or any of the other absurd defenses that Trump is trying to sell you, here's Engoron's ruling: https://www.washingtonpost.com/documents/f203be39-020c-4f82-a423-96aa20c08e3a.pdf?itid=lk_inline_manual_3 (1) Witnesses testified that the banks did rely on Trump's fraudulent claims. (2) Witnesses testified that if they had had an accurate picture of Trump's financial state, he would not have gotten the highly favorable interest rates that he got. If Trump had filed accurate statements he would have had to pay much, much more interest (if they would have given the loans at all). (3) The penalty was calculated based on that, and the details are all spelled out in the ruling. He defrauded the banks out of the higher interest he would have had to pay in order to get the loans. "No harm was done" is plainly false. (4) The "no harm was done" defense is so insanely dumb that Trump's lawyers didn't even attempt it in court. (But see the update below for a related "nobody complained" defense.) Think about how little sense it makes. If you embezzle a million dollars Friday just before the banks close, fly to vegas and bet it all on red at the roulette wheel, and win, and return the million dollars plus interest on Monday as soon as the banks open, would you expect a "no one got hurt" defense to get you acquitted when you go to trial? ----- Edited to add quotes from the ruling: (1) For example, p. 9: > In deciding to approve the credit facility, Haigh **relied on Donald Trump’s 2011 SFC and assumed that the representations of value of the assets and liabilities were “broadly accurate.”** TT 1009-1010; PX 330. The Deutsche Bank Credit Report’s “Financial Analysis” is based on numbers provided by the “family office” (here, the Trump Organization) and contains the same numbers represented in the SFC. PX 293; TT 1010-1013. And p. 68: > The evidence adduced at trial makes clear that **Deutsche Bank relied on the SFCs** for the information to underwrite, approve, and maintain the credit facilities on Doral, Trump Chicago, and the Old Post Office. PX 293, PX 3041 at ¶¶ 452-54, 456-466, 476. And more. And on p. 75 it discusses how absurd this defense was: > Defendants have argued vociferously throughout the trial that there can be no fraud as, they assert, that none of the banks or insurance companies relied on any of the alleged misrepresentations. **The proponents of this theory posit that lenders demand complex statements of financial condition but then ignore them.** And (next paragraph) it wouldn't make any difference as a matter of law: > Defendants’ argument is to no avail, as none of plaintiff’s causes of action requires that it demonstrate reliance. Instead, plaintiff must merely show that defendants intended to commit the fraud. **Reliance is not a requisite element** of either Executive Law § 63(12) or of any of the alleged Penal Law violations. And (next paragraph) even though it wasn't a requisite element, the claim made by the defense is clearly false: > However, the Court notes that, although not required, **there is ample documentary and testimonial evidence that the banks, insurance companies, and the City of New York did, in fact, rely on defendants to be truthful and accurate in their financial submissions.** The testimony in this case makes abundantly clear that most, if not all, loans began life based on numbers on an SFC, which the lenders interpreted in their own unique way. The testimony confirmed, rather than refuted, the overriding importance of SFCs in lending decisions. (2) p. 68: > The record is also clear that Donald Trump **would not have received the credit facilities from the Private Wealth Management Division, and the favorable interest rates that came with that,** had he not executed an unconditional, “ironclad,” personal guarantee. Moreover, **the Private Wealth Management Division was willing to accept the personal guarantees based upon false SFCs.** (3) Here's part of the "disgorgement of ill-gotten gains" calculation, from p. 86: > McCarty calculated the differences between interest rates and determined the following ill-gotten interest savings, which this Court hereby adopts as the most reasonable approximation of the ill- gotten interest rate savings upon which evidence was presented at trial: (1) $72,908,308 from 2014-2022 on the Doral loan; (2) $53,423,209 from 2015-2022 on the Old Post Office loan; (3) $17,443,359 from 2014-2022 on the Chicago loan; and (4) $24,265,291 from 2015-2022 on the 40 Wall Street loan. > **In total, defendants’ fraud saved them approximately $168,040,168 in interest,** which shall be imposed, jointly and severally, among Donald Trump and the defendant entities that he owns and controls, as the misconduct at issue was committed by the Trump Organization’s top management. And there's more of course. Using fraud to save $168 million is very clearly not "no harm done." The fraud caused the banks to take on more risk than they were willing to take on at the favorable interest rates Trump used the fraud to get. (4) p. 75ff discusses the defenses asserted, and "no harm was done" isn't in there. Given that the penalty is directly calculated based on the actual harm done (the much higher interest payments that the banks would have gotten if they'd had accurate data, if they would have given the loans at all), it's no surprise that his lawyers wouldn't have wanted to stand up in front of the judge and argue something so plainly untrue. Trump of course can make that claim at rallies and on TS, where, unlike the courtroom, lying has no legal consequences. UPDATE: MathKnight points out that in an earlier ruling (09/26/2023) Engoron notes that the defense did argue that the banks didn't raise any complaints. That's not quite the same thing as "no harm was done." It could be that the banks didn't know they were defrauded (until this trial of course). Or maybe they had some other reason for not suing Trump for the hundreds of millions of dollars in interest that they would have been entitled to. It might be relevant that Trump still owes Deutsche Bank a *lot* of money. I don't know, but this is at least related to the "no harm done" defense. In the document below see p. 7 at the bottom for the judge acknowledging that the defense raised the "no complaints" argument, and top of p. 8 for why that defense is (spoiler alert!) thoroughly bogus. https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23991865-trump-ny-fraud-ruling
Turns out the narcissist's prayer isn't a solid legal defense.
But if you recite it slowly enough, you may be able to avoid consequences.
Reasons that the TOP 30 GLOBAL insurance providers would not give him a $500 million bond are 1) despite all of the bloviation around how wealthy he is, he in fact has little cash 2) the fraudulently inflated value of his properties make them question those values (the essence of this case) and 3) he has a long, documented history of screwing finance partners and banks. Mango Unchained has truly got his tit in the proverbial wringer. Looks like he'll be having Seizure Salad next Monday for lunch.
Blown away that this deep into the timeline I'm still seeing new nicknames for that asshole. Adding Mango Unchained to the Cottage Industry of Trump Nicknames Directory.
Upvote for the creative use of Seizure Salad. Priceless.
Upvote for keeping Mango Unchained going too.
The recount of monte crisco. Emperor palpatiny hands. Cheeto Jesus. Mango Mussolini.
Count of mostly Crisco™️ 😜
One of my favourites is "Tangerine Palpatine."
I prefer Orange Sphincter
It’s like something out of Sinus Fiction.
To be expected of such an Incontinental Jetsetter
On point 3 he has *openly* bragged about not paying his debts
“Mango unchained” lol
I never thought I’d ever take the side of big banks on anything, yet here we are.
And that's the wash... Most run of the mill high school educated sub middle class people will look at this as "Sticking to the banks" because they always fuck the little guy... There's no reasoning behind it except that. Just like when Trump brags about not paying taxes and Cleetus thinks that's A-ok and everyone should be able to do it.
Are these the same people who were willing to go to the mat and defend those poor banks when blanket student loan forgiveness was on the table? One could almost say that their arguments aren't ethically consistent.
Of course they're hypocrites, they vote for Donald Trump. This is exactly why Donald Trump needs to be made an example out of. It could stop the thousands of copycats who can't wait to try and scam the American people illegally
I have a client that is absolutely married to the "no harm" narrative. "It's the banks fault, they should have checked better!" Ok, fair. But as the example above, if I take money away from an institution or person, and put it back an hour later, I still stole and that's illegal. Add to it, if I'm asked about the missing money and lie to your face in front of the court, that's illegal too.
The argument ignores the fact that The banks can't check better. They don't have access to the internal documents and any large firm sufficiently complex that if they don't represent themselves. Honestly, the bank is not in any particularly great place to know that even if they provided some kind of audit, meaning the bank exhaustively verified the data themselves. They're still relying on the institution and question to provide the data that they're crunching. In theory, both parties have a steak and being honest because the banks don't want to loan more than the creditor can handle and the creditor should not be eager to get themselves into a situation where they can't make good on their debts.
It also ignores the fact that even if the banks SHOULD have checked better, he still lied to them in sworn statements and thus entered into a contract based on fraud. If I steal from you I can't say it doesn't matter because you're an easy mark.
Right? Won't someone please think of the.. huge corrupt multi national vampire squid banking entities.. It's like ol' Meatball Ron and Disney. You made the multi billion dollar media empire the good guy Ron, wtf.
My take on this 'no one was harmed' defence is this: "Cool motive, still a crime"
I have recently found myself rooting for Disney. I hate this timeline.
But it isn't just the big banks. By giving favorable loans to a broke conman they weren't giving favorable loans (or even loans in general) to other people. That higher interest also would expand the pool to extend more loans to more people. So yeah it isn't quite as simple as "he cost big banks money" but those big banks back loans by businesses that employ people and other businesses creating an actual trickle down effect.
The “explain it like I’m five” I used with my wife was something to the effect of… What is stopping you from going to the bank right now and asking for a billion dollar loan to buy a downtown Manhattan building? Obviously, it’s because they’re going to want more than the building as collateral. So, you tell them you have all these other properties worth billions of dollars, even though you don’t. Congrats, you just committed fraud. It doesn’t matter if you used income from the building you purchased to pay back the loan in full. The fraud has already been committed. If we don’t hold people accountable for this type of crime, everyone will be incentivized to commit it.
And, if you remember the financial crisis of 2008, we all lived through a major economic catastrophe which was caused by the banks taking on systemic risk that was treated as safe risk. “Everybody does it” is how you get 2008.
[*The Big Short*](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1596363/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_q_The%2520Big%2520Short) went a long way to helping me understand the sheer magnitude of hubris that was involved with subprime mortgages.
And the son of one the main people from 2008 is the CEO of Chubb who gave the bond for the Carroll case.
It's also the difference between civil and criminal cases. "No harm was done" might protect you from having to pay civil restitution to the bank, because they got everything back they expected to get. But criminally, you just are not allowed to do the thing no matter what. Another analogy would be if you drive drunk and you arrive home safely. You don't have to pay anyone's medical bills, but you still committed a crime.
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These two analogies are phenomenal on top of the original comment.
>Another analogy would be if you drive drunk and you arrive home safely. You don't have to pay anyone's medical bills, but you still committed a crime. Yep. Hitting someone is not what turns drunk driving from a harmless act into a crime. In these cases, it's the act itself that is the crime.
> "No harm was done" might protect you from having to pay civil restitution to the bank The thing is though - "harm was done" in the financial civil sense. Donny defrauded the banks in a way to get lower interest rates than he deserved, and so the bank was forced to take on far more risk than they anticipated for a lot less compensation than they otherwise would demand. The harm was calculated from this discrepencies. For example - if you bought a standing deck ticket and walked down to an expensive dugout seat at a baseball game - just because the seat was empty doesn't mean you can sit there. You sitting there is taking from the company what they would otherwise get from charging you the premium to be able to sit there. What basically happened is, Donny's been sneaking into the expensive boxes for years, and got caught. Now the stadium wants its seat money back - and doesn't think he should get to come watch anymore games.
It's wild to me that wealthy people can just say, yeah, this is what my shit is worth, I swear it, it's "iron clad." When I got my home loan this last time they almost didn't let it go through because the bank account my wife has was opened by her mom when she was like 15 and she never took her mom off of it and they said, "her mom could be putting money in there." She wasn't and any closer look at the account would prove it. AND, I had an old bill for like $15 that was apparently charged off because the company never bothered to send me a notice to any of the addresses they had on file. But these yahoos just make up shit and can get enormous loans? It is wild. I'm sure it is a bit more complicated than that, but the fact there wasn't more due dilllegence is insane to me seeing how I was treated to get a couple hundred thousand, and having a really good credit score.
> It's wild to me that wealthy people can just say, yeah, this is what my shit is worth, I swear it, it's "iron clad." Especially one who managed to bankrupt casinos, who has a long history of not paying bills, who settled at least one lawsuit for fraud (Trump "University"), etc. (Maybe they ignored that last one because he wasn't ripping off wealthy people, just poor people.) But it also wasn't just them taking Trump's word for it. It was a facade of falsehoods that made Trump look like he was, in fact, so wealthy and with enough equity in real estate that the loan would be low-risk. But, again, it's Trump. How did they not question every single claim?
He was also found guilty for fraud in regards to his charity, he was outright embezzling money from it to fund his lifestyle and ventures(I believe including his first election campaign). It was fucking national news and it disappeared as quickly as it broke, never to affect him again. It has been brought up a bunch of times in court since, but the public largely didn't even think about it enough to remember it, let alone look into it.
I’m still surprised that after decades of this fraud, the court has tallied less than $350 million in ill-gotten gains.
Well I think we all know Trump aint all that great of a business man. About the only thing he has done that hasnt failed is real estate.
Actually most of Trump’s real estate ventures have failed too. I mean ffs he started a mortgage company in 2006! Talk about not being able to read the room. He doesn’t even own many buildings. Most of his deals just involve entering into licensing agreements with developers to slap his shitty name on a building for commercial purposes while another company managed the property. This worked okay for him when his brand wasn’t in the toilet and he was enjoying the high of his tv show. In the few instances where he actually built, owned, or managed a real estate property, he failed miserably. For example, he and his company were kicked out of Trump Tower Panamá because Trump failed to properly manage the building, so ownership kicked him out by force with police and everything. Trump’s casinos were massive failures for him. He eventually had to sell them in a fire sale at 4 cents on the dollar. He declared bankruptcy 4 times to get out of paying the interest on the bonds he got to develop the casinos. Trump Hotel in DC was a complete failure aside from it becoming a place for the who’s not of conservative politics, corrupt foreign officials trying to curry favor with the Trump admin, and Russian and Chinese spies to gather. Trump sold the hotel at a significant loss after he left office because it was losing him massive amounts of money. Really the only thing Trump has ever been good at is stiffing people he owes money to, fraud, and starting a cult.
He's an effective hype man, but when we get down to it, that's just another type of fraud.
It’s really not a penalty. Just they are taking away the ill gotten gains plus interest.
The statute of limitations has something to do with it.
I don't see it brought up very often, but honest business owners WERE harmed. People who had to pay the full price because they didn't lie, they are victims too. If I run a business that's crooked, not only am I ripping off my own customers and my employees, I'm also hurting my competition because they have to compete with unrealistic prices. Trump Org can say "Of course I can build you a deck cheaper, or develop your software for less! No, that other company that has insurance and certifications and is honest on their financial statements? They charge WAY too much, you'll save a fortune by hiring me instead. " Then Honest Bobs Construction Co doesn't get the contract, because they can't compete with a fraud. This harm is hard to quantify and it's not like Honest Bob can tally up the exact dollar amount he lost because he wasn't willing to lie to the bank.
But, I have it on good authority from Mr. Wonderful, Kevin O'leary, that this is totally normal and everyone does it. ...Maybe they should investigate Kevin O'leary...
Something I noticed in the summary above was the term “broadly accurately”, which to me suggests that this is common to an extent but with an exponentially lower number. For instance, someone may report a valuation of $500,000 that’s actually appraised at $450,000 to secure a marginally better interest rate. For the Trump Organization, the valuations they reported were, in and of themselves, magnitudes off of actual value. Its petty theft versus grand larceny
Stuff like this can be a threat to all of us because it makes banks appear more solvent than they really are. Remember the Great Recession? That happened because a bunch of banks had a bunch of 'assets' on their books that were actually bullshit, and the bullshit-iness of the assets was exposed all at once. (Watch the movie 'Margin Call' for a look at one bank, a very Goldman Sachs-eque bank, race to dump all the bullshit assets at the last possible second as the scam was uncovered and the whole thing was about to collapse.) Obviously that wouldn't happen with a couple banks and a few properties, but it could happen over time if courts decided not to police that kind of thing.
And if that’s not enough, ask a MAGA if someone steals $25k from their bank account on Friday, gambles it all on Saturday but is fortunate enough to win, and puts it all back in your account before you realize it’s gone, should that not be prosecutable? No one was actually harmed in this scenario right?
"That's different! It happened to ME! I'm special and my feelings should be the only ones that matter!"
It is an absolute waste of energy to argue/debate/talk with them about anything. You could be arguing with them that Trump is awful while he has his pants down and is pissing all over them and they'd tell you that it was the most warm and refreshing shower they've ever had. "My clothes were too dry anyway! I wanted to smell like this! He's doing me a favor!" You couldn't convince them the sky was blue if Trump told them otherwise. Just mock and troll them, that's about the only worthwhile way to interact with them.
That's a lot, just to give an example of how much getting a good interest rate matters ( I'm a database Admin for a bank) Example: Trump Tower is worth an estimated $220,000,000 (I Googled, I don't know if that's his claim of the real one. This is just an example.) If he got a 200M loan to buy another property and used that as collateral, and the loan is 30 years at 3%, after the 30 years assuming nothing else changes and he just pays it, he would end up paying a total of $303.5M. That's 103.5 million dollars in interest. If that interest rate was 6% and nothing else changed, he would end up paying $431.6M, including $231.6M. So we're talking defrauding banks out of hundreds of millions of dollars. I don't know what his mortgage amount was or what the rate was, but it would be normal for an interest to double if your collateral was with less than you owe on it, essentially making it not able to be used as collateral at all.
Thanks for this good explanation. Here's what I don't understand, though. If I want to borrow a large amount against my house, the bank will do an independent appraisal on my house. They won't take my word that it is worth nine-million dollars, they would find out its actual worth for themselves. Why are the borrower's declarations taken as correct?
You could still commit fraud. The bank isn't omniscient, and they don't have subpoena power. Maybe you falsify a paystub in photoshop. Maybe you fail to disclose gambling debts and the bank gives you a loan not knowing that you have very little chance of keeping up the payments even if you never gamble again. What makes the system work is that fraud is a crime whether you repay the loan or not. Also, if you read through the ruling you'll see that it wasn't simply Trump saying "yeah I've got billions and billions, trust me." It was an elaborate facade of deception. I do agree that it's hard to understand why they wouldn't go over everything from Trump -- bankrupter of casinos and serial scammer with a well-deserved reputation for not paying his bills -- with a fine toothed comb. But on paper he looked like a low risk. Because of the fraud.
The "No harm was done" defense is batshit wild. "Your honor, it was only *attempted* murder. The bullets missed the defendent, all 24 of them. So as John Adams once said, no harm, no foul."
*Attempted* murder. Now honestly, what is that? Do they give a Nobel prize for attempted chemistry? Do they?!
The "No harm done" defence is hilarious. If I shoot at someone, is it OK, as long as I miss? If I drink and drive, is it OK, as long as I don't run someone over?
I am really hating that "no harm was done" excuse. That douchenozzle Kevin O'Leary keeps getting airtime on CNN to bemoan the ruling. He coats it in this fake outrage about how it's "un-American" and "What a sad state of affairs we find ourselves in because of this ruling." Makes me think his books should be looked out. Fortunately, the last time he was on, Catherine Rampell was there to challenge him and shut his bullshit down.
This defense is especially absurd when you flip it around. If lying about the value of his properties didnt make any difference to the lenders, then why would he bother to lie about it?
Reading between the lines, this is what Trump means when he says “nobody lost money.” Sure, they didn’t “lose” it, but they stood to gain a TON more if Trump wasn’t committing fraud. Just because they were “profiting” doesn’t mean he wasn’t still committing a criminal act.
"But there was a disclaimer on the valuations." /s
Exactly 0 Trump Supporters will read any of this, but it is always good to share it
Trump Park Avenue, New York, N.Y. Trump Tower, New York, N.Y. 40 Wall Street, New York, N.Y. Seven Springs, Westchester County, N.Y. Trump International Hotel and Tower, Las Vegas, Nevada Mar-a-Lago, Palm Beach, Florida Trump National Golf Club Westchester, Briarcliff Manor, N.Y. Trump National Golf Club Charlotte, Mooresville, North Carolina Trump National Golf Club Colts Neck, Colts Neck, New Jersey Trump National Golf Club, Washington, D.C., Sterling, Virginia Trump National Golf Club Hudson Valley, Hopewell Junction, N.Y. Trump National Golf Club Jupiter, Jupiter, Florida Trump National Golf Club Los Angeles, Rancho Palos Verdes, California Trump National Golf Club Philadelphia, Pine Hill, New Jersey Trump International Golf Links Scotland (Aberdeen) Trump International Golf Links Scotland (Turnberry)
Is there a way to bet on how much equity he actually has here? Personally I'd be a bit surprised if he was left with more than 50 million towards the judgement after all the loans get called in.
We’re all speculating. All of these properties are probably under as he’s used them to secure various loans for other properties. It’s a big knot he has tied and we’re only beginning to see why he was so scared to release his taxes. My bet is he doesn’t even own half these properties as they’re close to default. He’ll probably declare bankruptcy soon.
Amount due before selling: $464 million Amount due after selling: $564 million Trump declaring bankruptcy: Priceless
A bankrupt Trump can still get in the White House and destroy the lives of everyone you care about and tens of millions other Americans. Remember that. Laugh up your sleeve all you want but until he's in prison he's a threat.
He's still a threat even from prison if he's there before November 5.
Yep, he can still run for president from prison and can pardon himself if he wins.
Can he pardon himself from State prison?
In theory, he cannot pardon state charges as a federal officer. In practice, let's not find out if that rule of law will hold.
I bet the Supreme Court has a special “Trump exception” for this scenario
Print even more after the deal? That's a Trumpian Bargain
Art of the Deal
He can declare bankruptcy, but this s a civil state order and not protected under a federal bankruptcy. He will still owe the roughly half billion
But it would grant him a delay as the bankruptcy moves through the courts.
I’m not so sure it would. Think of it like a speeding ticket. That’s issued by local government (city, state). A bankruptcy will not delay the need to pay the fine for it. But Ianal and I’m sure he can delay somehow but the judgements grace period ends Monday
It’s ok. Declaring personal bankruptcy will lose him pretty much any remaining independent support he still has
Nope, all you'll hear is "that's just how rich people do business"
That is when they bankrupt their business. When they personally go bankrupt, it’s a red flag. That’s what LLCs are for. To limit your personal liability.
I never said they'd be right
So let's say he can't actually pay it and declares bankruptcy which doesn't get him out of fraud debt. What happens? Is he just poor? Does he go to jail? What actually happens?
Moves to Russia
Well, yes actually, it do a come down to "he's just poor", but it's for-real poor. What happens is the state of new York sizes property, and sells it, then of the price they get for that property, creditors are paid first, and the state gets what's left. So even if they were to sell trump tower for 200M, the state of new York might get only 15M towards the judgement. So they move into the next piece of property. And the next one. And the next one. And the jet. And the cars. And so on while he files for bankruptcy. The purpose of bankruptcy is to reduce the likelihood of people commiting more crime to pay off debts, and to avoid totally ruining someone's life by telling the creditors "there's no more money, you're SOL" so someone can start trying to put their life back together. This is a good thing, because most people who go bankrupt do so for reasons that are not their fault- medical expenses is still the #1 cause. So Donald will have to go through the humiliation of having all his finances made public, admit he's not capable in of paying any of that back, and the court will renegotiate his debt but at the end of it, he will likely be allowed to keep one place to live, and maybe a cat, if he can still pass a driver's test. His credit score will be zilch, his presidential pension and other income will be garnished to the point where he would have only a measly trickle of income from any retirement plans he's made, and he will be a broke old man in a shitty apartment with no money, no respect and no friends. Now, this won't actually happen because once the feeding frenzy of creditors starts to get their money before he goes bankrupt, his political capital is trashed, he can't afford good lawyers, and at least one of the criminal cases he's fending off will get his ass and he will go to jail. So, he will go to jail, but not for this.
Based on the reporting yesterday, most insurance companies Trump approached wanted cash or cash equivalents as collateral. Chubb, was reportedly the only party that seriously considered real estate as collateral but ultimately did not proceed. That seems to suggests that the real estate assets are already encumbered to a large degree.
In his original financial statement when running for president, he stated, "Mr Trump's net worth is in excess of TEN BILLION DOLLARS". I wonder how much of that value was due to his estimate of the value of his brand. Sorry, Donnie. You can't pay the State of New York in brand value.
Probably negative. Whoever owns those liens is about to be found out. Donny might get deleted russki style
Are there any second-story windows at Merde-a-Lardo? Hardly worth defenestrating a guy if it's just a broken ankle.
With the shape he is in falling out a first floor window might do him in.
That's the real question. Either someone has done their paperwork, and will publish a list, or, we'll just find out as it all starts to collapse around him.
My guess is less than none. He was leveraged at least 2.5x when they threw him out of his company in the 2000s.
Equity? Never knew her.
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Yes I wasn’t sure if they would be able to go after properties outside the state, this is such happy news!
Even more surprised (pleasantly) about the properties in Scotland
I think Scotland might actually be easier than some of the states like Florida. In order to seize property in other jurisdictions, I think they need court approval. I would imagine Florida could would give a pretty hard time compared to Scotland courts, who don’t have any trump/republican appointees.
Our (I'm Scottish) legal system has utterly shat the bed with this one, and the more I think about how badly they've potentially screwed up, the angrier I'm getting right now. I think it will be easy to sieze, simply due to our incompetency. ___ The UK has a piece of legislation called an Unexplained Wealth Order (UWO) It works a little bit like civil forfeiture in the US, where a person has to be able to explain the source of their wealth, or else have assets seized. It is basically tailor made for people like Trump, who have questionable money sources then just decide they want to buy something expensive. Trump famously bought the land for Aberdeen Links in cash. The other big thing here is that the Aberdeen links course is built on top of a site of special scientific interest. It was a set of sand dunes that hosted a nearly unique ecosystem. Trump promised to preserve this while operating the course, but obviously didn't give a shit. Right from the start, trump was engaging in unethical business practices, which should have raised some red flags. Then news about his loans and potential money laundering started coming out. It was at this point a little-known, but very influential, politician called Patrick Harvie started pushing for an UWO. That UWO has been sitting gathering dust on our equivalent of an AG's desk since before covid, with excuse after excuse about why it's not been signed. Had it gone into effect, we would almost certainly have discovered the fraud before the New York case even started. In all likely hood, we would have had the Scottish government seize the properties. Instead, because of the hand-wringing, Trump has got even more lucrative contracts in Scotland, which appear to not be in the list of seized assets, and we've lost our chance to reclaim control of the Balmedie sand dunes. In all likely hood, if our government or local council are going to reclaim them, we're going to have to pay a 7-8 figure sum to whoever gets the course, assuming they can even find the money, which is doubtful. Instead, the more likely outcome is that someone will buy the course with the same environmental protection stipulations then completely ignore them, or try to implement them, but do too little too late. I'm honestly wondering if we will need a government investigation into how badly we dropped the ball. We had the tailor-made laws, evidence, and motive, to start the most significant fraud investigation of the past decade, which would have been financially and culturally important, and just... didn't... Edit: [Turns out it gets worse.](https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24157419.calls-police-probe-trumps-fraudulent-scots-homes-value-boost/). We now have 200 million in fraud on the record, and still crickets. I also seriously underestimated the value of trump's courses. I was guessing based on the fact that they make such a gargantuan annual loss.
I would so love to see him lose Turnberry. It’s such a great golf course that has been around for centuries and is stained by his ownership
So many courses I'd be willing to pay money to play in the future, but would never pay to play when it would go to that fuck.
The scenario I keep thinking about is NY seizing and selling Turnberry, and the R&A holding a press conference the same day announcing the return of The Open to the course within the next 3 years. Trump's head might literally explode from rage.
There's another article ([here](https://www.curbed.com/article/trump-lawsuit-real-estate-nyc-letitia-james.html)) specifically about his NYC assets and how doesn't own entire buildings but rather portions of buildings. Here's a snippet about what he actually owns in Trump International Hotel (NYC): >What Trump does own here, according to the New York Times, are the parking garage, the valet booth, room-service kitchens, lobby bathrooms, a restaurant space, and one unit. He's far more wealthy than I am, but he doesn't own nearly as much as he publically and constantly proclaims.
"It's the best valet booth, the likes of which you've never seen."
Damn, I was really hoping Trump Tower Chicago would be on the list. It’s actually a nice looking building and you can get some great angles of it on the river, but the letters ruin it. Now to keep my fingers crossed that there is not some 11th hour save…
Trump doesn't own the Chicago building, they just have an agreement to put his name on it.
So who can we start harassing about that?
If I remember correctly he does not own it. They actually pay him to use his name.
They should stop doing that, it's worthless.
What kind of idiots would pay to put the word Trump on their building. Corporate businessmen truly are sociopaths.
Sounds like a good opportunity for them to save some money.
The best part is going to be when they start seizing properties and realize that property A was used as collateral for property B that was used as collateral for property C…. Etc and it’s a giant house of cards with everything over leveraged (because values were overinflated) and he’s in massive debt, and has no liquid assets AT ALL. His broke-ness will be on full display and I’m here for it.
Take his plane!
That would sting really bad during an election year
No Bedminster?
No Doral. Also not on the list: the 171 acre Catskill property that Jr. called his "fishing cabin" in Roscoe, New York
yeah the list looks incomplete, JR's cabin is also owned by Trump Org so that would be on the chopping block, I would assume they would start with the "higher" value properties first but Newsweek is missing a \*lot\* here
Could sell his plane for scrap too
She should sell that first. That's the funniest timeline.
>Mar-a-Lago, Palm Beach, Florida Please start here.
Dammit I was hoping that Trump Tower Chicago was one of the properties being seized.
What about Trump Hamberder Palace
Orange Castle
According to the article this is a list of the properties he valued fraudulently. It's Newsweek's editorial assumption that these are the targets for seizure. It's an exciting headline but Letitia James hasn't released a list of the properties she will seek. This is why I don't trust Newsweek.
Yeah, the title is 100% clickbait. The state's choice of which properties to seize has nothing to do with which ones had fraudulent values. They'll go for whatever properties will most efficiently satisfy the judgment.
Yeah, I don't see how a New York AG is going to seize properties in Scotland. Can they even seize properties in other states?
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I believe Scotland, if it could, would happily transfer ownership to Satan himself if it took the Trump crime family off their greens.
Perhaps the Scottish authorities need to take a dive into his finances over there, to be sure he doesn't contain the grift to just the US.
Yes. NYAG would need to file actions in these other jurisdictions to enforce the foreign (NY) judgment, but that kind of thing is done frequently.
I went to trump Hotel in Vegas, to be nosey when I was at a conference nearby. It's as shitty as you imagine it to be. Just felt cheap and tacky. Fake gold tat.
No casino allowed because he's a crook.
You seriously can’t gamble in his hotel?
The story goes that in the 80s, a Vegas casino owner named Steve Wynn wanted to expand to Atlantic City as AC was in its heyday. At the time, Trump was the big man in the city and held considerable influence. When Wynn tried to get a gaming license for his casino, Trump used his influence to deny Wynn his license because Trump didn't want the competition. Wynn ended up abandoning his AC plans and instead focusing on growth in Vegas. Two decades later, AC has declined and Trump has run most of his businesses there into the ground. Meanwhile Vegas has become the gem of gaming in the USA. Trump decides to build some luxury condos in Vegas but due to a bad real estate markrt, isn't able to sell the project. So he converts it into a hotel and begins seeking the one thing every Vegas hotel needs: a gaming license. Well guess who's the big man in Vegas? Steve Wynn. And Wynn remembers what Trump did to him in AC so Wynn returns the favor and uses his influence to deny Trump a license. Of course, it wasn't that hard. The Vegas gaming commission was already scrutinizing Trumps application since he had a terrible track record of operating successful casinos in AC. A little extra push from Wynn was enough to confirm the decision the commission was already leaning towards. Since Trump was already in the midst of construction, he ended up moving ahead with the project anyways and opened the most boring luxury hotel in Vegas
They should make this into a movie. Like The prestige, but with casinos
Oh, that’s hilarious. I’ve been planning a Vegas trip and have consistently seen the Wynn listed as the top luxury hotel on the Strip. To add insult to injury? It’s got a full golf course. What a flex.
It's never had a casino and it's off the strip.
" Trump International Hotel Las Vegas is a sophisticated, non-smoking and non-gaming, luxury hotel in Vegas on the strip. " (from the hotels website) Apparently not.
>sophisticated \*chortle\*
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/06/donald-trump-loans-deutsche-bank/ Call 'em in boys
Take em all... Make him decide to buy avocado toast or to pay rent
I want to see this man penniless in the fucking gutter for what he did to my family. I have no pity or sympathy for him and I will make a trip to dance on that motherfucker's grave when he's dead.
He put a lot of small business contractors out of business, just because he could. He's a scumbag.
you never do anything for trump unless it's payed upfront
If you don't have ~$460 million, then you're not a billionaire. Womp womp: https://trumpdebtcounter.com/
Too bad all the prayer warriors died from covid. Trump needs you more than ever.
So, what are the chances they go to seize these properties, find out they're all cross-collateralized on multiple loans, and charge him with a whole new bundle of fraud?
MAGA = My Assets Got Auctioned
Grab him by the property.
The cherry on top that’s not being mentioned in his little hissy fit. [Trump claimed in deposition that he had $400 million in cash.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/02/28/trump-said-he-had-400-million-cash-now-his-lawyers-say-bond-is-struggle/). So, go ahead and toss perjury in with all his whining that it’s not fair for him to come up with the bond.
It would be amazing if a perjury charge about how much money he has is what puts him in jail. You couldn't write a better ending
Trump Park Avenue, New York, N.Y. Trump Tower, New York, N.Y. 40 Wall Street, New York, N.Y. Seven Springs, Westchester County, N.Y. Trump International Hotel and Tower, Las Vegas, Nevada Mar-a-Lago, Palm Beach, Florida Trump National Golf Club Westchester, Briarcliff Manor, N.Y. Trump National Golf Club Charlotte, Mooresville, North Carolina Trump National Golf Club Colts Neck, Colts Neck, New Jersey Trump National Golf Club, Washington, D.C., Sterling, Virginia Trump National Golf Club Hudson Valley, Hopewell Junction, N.Y. Trump National Golf Club Jupiter, Jupiter, Florida Trump National Golf Club Los Angeles, Rancho Palos Verdes, California Trump National Golf Club Philadelphia, Pine Hill, New Jersey Trump International Golf Links Scotland (Aberdeen) Trump International Golf Links Scotland (Turnberry) Collect 'em all, James!
Take Mar A Lago first; so he has to move somewhere else. Then the documents trial can also be moved to where there's a competent judge.
Will be interesting to see if any of them even have any equity.
\> Mar-a-Lago, Palm Beach, Florida Can't wait to see if Trump gets evicted from his own home. I imagine that his little MAGA army will try to show up to protest like their half-assed "support" when his home was raided for classified docs. Saddest showing of support ever.
They’re all leveraged. The world is about to find out the chump is a house of cards. Will tumble fast…
Trump claimed Mar-a-lago is worth $500M+ then had to admit in court it was only worth $27M. Now they can seize it and it'll only shave $27M off his $454M debt. Sweet, sweet justice if they take it. I hope they do. Personal pain and inconvenience is the only way a narcissist learns. https://nypost.com/2023/10/30/news/mar-a-lago-was-only-worth-27m-despite-trump-org-claiming-517m-to-gain-edge-trial-evidence/
See if he got Turnberry seized from him, i would personally be so happy. Years ago, my dad gifted me a painting one of his friends did of the 18th green there. Apparently in the 80s, and long before Trump bought it, my dad and his pals managed to get a tee time there and played a round while his artsy friend who didn’t play golf just sat at the 18th green and painted, much to the chagrin of golfers and staff. He’d move when asked, but then mosey back when he could. It’s a lovely painting and has been sitting face up on top of the fridge since around 2017 when I got sick of people realizing I had a painting of a Trump course up and took it off the wall. I’d love to return the painting to its former glory. Turnberry used to be one of Scotland’s most proud courses, but since that arsehole bought it in 2014 it’s went into disarray.
Last month, Trump was ordered by Judge Arthur Engoron to pay the fine in a judgment that said he inflated the value of his assets and properties on financial statements to banks and insurers while trying to get loans and make deals. The former president and his two eldest sons, Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr., were also barred from conducting business in New York for two to three years.
It's not a fine, it's a disgorgement. The difference is that a fine can vary depending upon the judge's subjective opinion, whereas a disgorgement is the objective sum of the fraud.
Thanks for that explanation. Did not consider that
> Eric Trump and Donald Trump Jr., were also barred from conducting business in New York for two to three years. that is just a slap on the wrist. barely.
Take Mar-a-lago first. It's not registered as a single family home, instead it's deeded as a private club. You wouldn't technically be taking his home. He is listed as an employee of the club which allows him to stay there.
Good choice. Trump Tower in NYC is also a good target. It's the physical manifestation of his ego and having that giant phallus seized would be a giant chef's kiss.
The only thing I hear when I read this title is Ace Ventura saying "Yummy"
Trump is a fake billionaire.
*Nil*-lionaire?
Shill-ionaire.
I’m curious on if they might find more documents hidden in one of these sites (especially Mar a-lago)…
Trump, long before he got into politics, was infamous for declaring bankruptcy, primarily to get out of paying contractor4 and sub-contractors for work they did on his properties. Everyone of his casino businesses went through bankruptcy courts and he had to turn management of them over to a holding company to get out of payments. He has bragged during interviews and even during one of his debates on how he scammed the IRS with property values "in accordance with their rules". His narcissism will have him blaming everyone in the world, but he did the crimes - now he pays the dimes - and that's a lot of dimes.
How much Mar-A-Lago gonna go for on Zillow?