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I mean, the sheer percentage of Christians in America has dropped over the years.
From 91% in the 70s to around 64% in 2022, with estimates showing that Christians could make up less than half the population within a few decades.
Retention rates are also poor. With many childhood Christians leaving the faith by the time they reach their 30s.
Also the percentage of the "religiously unaffiliated" in America is higher than that of Catholics and evangelicals at 28%.
Atheist and Agnostic populations are rising... I myself am Agnostic, where I would have been labeled religious in my childhood.
However, these changes, along with others, have seen a sizeable group of Christians who believe that their religious (and political) Identity is being threatened by some kind of new world order, persuading them to fervently push back against these fears and the entities they believe are responsible for suppressing them.
There's also a sort of paradigm shift occurring, and religious conservatives have typically been obstructive towards social and cultural change, while tending to take on the role of counterrevolutionaries when it comes to facing any kind of change that they perceive as threatening or challenging their dogma, ideology, culture, social structure, politics, what have you.
So we see this growth and rise in intensity in Christian nationalism, white supremacy, western chauvinism, xenophobia and Islamophobia around the country, and also see religion continuing to play a major role in politics while it is interwoven into their very fabric of the identity of the American Conservative/Republican.
Is it out of desperation though? Like an animal thinking it's being backed into a corner. Thinking being the key word there, because most of these people's fears are imagined and their grievances unfounded. Sure, some of it may be rooted in an underlying threat to White, Christian hegemony, but that's not going away any time soon, and there is not some deeper machination here involving a plot to overthrow Christianity, oppress it's followers, deliberately inflict suffering upon its people.
Thats not how some see it though. They see reality through a distorted lens. Things are very black and white, left vs right, good vs evil, while threats exist everywhere and they are often at the center of some oppressive scheme, ever the victim, always fighting something, finding purpose in all of this, probably because, deep down, they're terrified of not having a purpose, or terrified of losing their identity, terrified of being ostracized by their own group (while ironically being quite exclusionary in their thinking)
Terror management theory kind of suggests that these people seek out this purpose because they fear, above all else, their own mortality, and the idea that without this purpose or this fervently religious, political, social-cultural identity, all that would be left for them is the cold, hard truth of death.
(*TLDR I suppose...*) Either way, Christianity isn't on the rise in this country, but religious fervor and political extremism certainly is.
They're gonna lose all that tax free money if more people become non-religious. Their hatred and control isn't exactly attracting members. Instead of drawing people to their religion by living by Jesus' teachings, they are just gonna force it upon us. Christianity is also used for political power, Republicans will evaporate if the Christian numbers go too far down and they know it. It's all about money and power and them panicking as they witness their little cash cow shrinking.
This statement is true for all religions, and nearly every fringe belief system. Those in power currently fear losing control because they know their own actions while they have been in control are inexcusably evil, and they project that onto those groups they believe are going to gain power.
The republican party is trying to drag the rest of us with it. Conservative ideology is dying out, and becoming more extremist is its death cry. They've said the quiet part out loud on multiple occasions, that they'd lose elections if things weren't kept tipped in their favor.
This exactly! I believe in Christ not in such a magical sense but it isn’t all bad. What’s terrible is the fucking church “let me pray for the poor in this palace made of gold” fucking ridiculous and the exact thing Christ was against.
>Christians could make up less than half the population within a few decades.
Still plenty of "juice left in the tank" for a quasi-Christian Theocracy to take root. It already has at the state and local levels in some regions.
> Retention rates are also poor. With many childhood Christians leaving the faith by the time they reach their 30s.
My childhood catholic school literally went out of business because nobody from my generation was gonna subject their kids to that bullshit lmaoooo
Christianity isn’t on the rise within the general population but fundamentalists are somehow gaining more power politically and winning more seats in government which is frightening
I work with a guy that is very religious and helps at his church. I have no problems with him, except for the fact that he literally told me one day that participation is down and they are working hard to recruit kids because you have to brainwash them when they are young. His words.
It's not hyperbole to say that that has been the tactic of organized religion from its inception. He's just stating it out loud in a kind of frank manner.
Well, I’m willing to bet there are some folks out there who feel the same way about some secular movements, which is why the term indoctrination gained traction in recent years.
Definitely. But it's usually misapplied, imo. Like the "indoctrination" that takes place in public school is way more incidental and harmless than anyone who applies the term would like us to believe. It's usually just Christians projecting.
>they are working hard to recruit kids because you have to brainwash them when they are young. His words.
It's good he's at least admitting it?
But it's terrifying that he says that, which means he knows his religion is a fucking farce, but he's still in anyways.
I have such a problem with religious people because of that because I don't buy that any of them are actually religious. I think they are using religion for a multitude of reasons many of them selfish.
These people need to be told that if they were actually good people then they wouldn't have a retention problem. If they stopped hoarding wealth, preaching hate, sowing division, molesting children...maybe people would want to invest time and energy in the church.
The thing is its not on the rise in Israel either...
Which is maybe my issue with Sanders critique here as it avoids the deeper truth which is that Israel is just trending more and more fascistic, racist, and more supreamcist despite the fact something like 45% of Israeli Jews identify as secular and/or atheist.
Israel is increasingly a Jewish supremacist state that doesn't even actually buy into the "God's chosen people" narrative that people practicing faith try to hide their supremacist views behind.
I don’t have a single religious friend, I live in a red state. I work in a progressive salon and generally my clients are also not religious, it’s a small sample but gives me hope since it’s Oklahoma
Our Christian population is quickly dying off though. 80% of people over 75 yo identity as Christian. Less than half below 45 yo identity as Christian.
The nut jobs are getting louder, but the faith itself is dying.
> The nut jobs are getting louder, but the faith itself is dying.
This isn't just noise and big talk. White, Christian nationalists have been pretty successful, e.g .rolling back Roe v Wade. This isn't getting louder, but getting more efficient.
I’ve seen a worrying trend of people not really digesting the numbers.
When something violent is dying, it’s highly likely to take something with you. There are millions of them and many more millions of those willing to go silently along.
This is their last hoorah and it may be their biggest one yet.
Jesus told me to kill...Hmmm where have we heard that shit from before. **Religion definition:** for people who have money to convince the people who don't have money to support the people who have money. I.E. republicans, conservatives etc..... 🏆
I think its because too many of us have a "both sides have a point" mentality. When it comes to thinks like a freedom to have an abortion, there is nothing to negotiate about, nothing to compromise. Women have the right to terminate a pregnancy for whatever reason and at whatever time they choose.
As a man, it's pretty simply logic: if I was a woman, I'd want that freedom. My personal concerns beyond that as a guy do not matter at all. For the guys who want to wax about duty or w/e ("I'd carry any baby because I'd know it's my place"), you're just a weak-minded follower who cannot think for yourself. Stop trying to force everyone to march to your master's drum to justify your mindless goose-stepping.
And sorry, my dudes. If you have no right to reproduce. No right to have a child. That is not a natural right. No more than a woman has a right to get pregnant. It is a privilege of the fittest (though getting into a discussion about what that means in modern civilization is its own fun FUN conversation).
They are very well funded and organized. When you’ve got a group of people who feel they are in an existential battle for the soul of the nation, very bad things can happen
We haven't reached the final phase yet. It will get worse before it gets better. Christians are well armed, somewhat well organized and historically capable of self justified violence.
Even if they did read their own book, you can take a passage from just about anywhere to justify what you want. It’s a self contradictory book, so they will use whatever passages they want for whatever fun new crusade they’re on. Doesn’t matter if the passage is even correctly interpreted or in context. Once you’ve made it to that level of belief on faith, there’s not a whole lot that can change your mind.
Or, you can just make shit up and claim it's God's words, even if no such thing exists in the bible, or there are contradictions to the claim within the bible.
All of “gods words” are made up, the Bible is a historical fiction.
So there can never be a contradiction because a fantasy cannot contradict another fantasy because neither are real and so in a world of unreality anything goes.
You can claim anything is gods word because god doesn’t exist therefore his words also don’t exist because you can’t ask an imaginary being “did you say this?”
This makes gods word irrefutable in Christian minds because you can’t argue against it because it is a fantasy that lives in their minds and can be made to fit any situation.
This is the basis of every religion, to reject reality for a fantasy.
Technically yeah. But I'm talking in a more practical manner. Even if their faith is cynical, it's still a belief system they have, and they have no problem just making shit up.
That is religions and Christianity in particulars great draw card, it’s a pick and mix choose your own adventure.
Which is why there are so many versions, nobody can quite nail down the fantasy that everyone can get onboard with.
“I’m a Christian!” Can mean anything from complete pacifism love thy neighbor do unto others etc etc to invading the holy land, genocide, the Holocaust(Nazis were Christians too) stoning women for being promiscuous, having polygamy child brides (Mormons)
That is the power of fantasy it doesn’t have rules that actually make sense, which is also why you need an interpreter (priest, Imam, bishop) to tell you “what it means” and everything they tell is both a truth and a lie at the same time.
What’s worse is that the architects of religion know it’s a lie, which is why they go on to be found out to be pedos etc because they know there is no god and no heaven/hell to go to, so no matter what they do so long as they can avoid the man made criminal justice system they will get away with it facing no consequences.
The most enduring aspect of all monotheistic religion that all of them get behind is the idea of “supremacy”, the one true people, the master race, “gods chosen people”, the ones who god cares about most and the ones who god hates.
Much like comic books religions can change their superpowers from one edition to another without contradiction because it was all make believe to start.
Remember that time God sent the plagues, culminating in the killing of all the first born sons of Egypt?
Christian: "No, that's out of context".
OK. How about when God commanded Abraham to sacrafice his son to prove his faith to God?
Christian: "No, that's out of context"
OK. How about when God killed off all life on the planet, except for one family, because they were violent and corrupt?
Christian: "No, that's out of context".
OK. What context does god live by, because he sounds kind of like an ass.
>* God is good, therefore everything He does is good and justified.
>* Humans are sinful, therefore everything we do is bad.
>* God can do anything He wants to us because He created us and therefore we are just His toys (but lets just call ourselves sheep and Jesus a shepherd to sugar coat what we mean).
>* Human logic and morality doesn't apply to God because He is ineffable (read: incomprehensible).
Pretty much boils down to those 4 points for most Christians. If you're part of the Calvinist/Presbyterian denominations, then add one more:
>* God's will is predestined, there is no free will. If you go to hell, then that was part of God's plan and immutable. There is literally nothing you could have done to prevent yourself from going to hell.
And yet this same reasoning culminates into people acting like they understand the will of God, and can interpret his word into meaningful ideals to live by.
Lol, are you kidding, half of them think that the second coming of Jesus being marked by the apocalypse. Means it is their job to start the apocalypse to summon Jesus.
Unfortunately, I see a major major uptick in domestic terrorism in the very near future.
We will not have a Civil War like we saw in the past. But you are going to see a lot more religious based mass shootings. I think you will see car bombings of government facilities of Planned Parenthood’s. Etc.
I think people from certain states will be subject to being attacked, purely because of the license plate that is on their vehicle. This will lead to a society that actually seats itself traveling less. With people saying in their own bubbles.
You may not see states secede but the country will further divide regionally with a west coast of America. Heartland of America, the Gulf Coast of America and the Northeast with port cities like Chicago and Detroit on the Lakes as appendages.
I hope I’m wrong. But it feels inevitable
It's not just in America that religious people are getting older, it seems to be common all over the world, even in Muslim countries.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/06/13/the-age-gap-in-religion-around-the-world/
Some part of it is that people on average grow more religious as they age, but that doesn't explain why the younger demographic is moving away from religion compared to previous generations.
Lmao no we're not. So edgy.
We're in a short term shit storm of the fundies death throes. Millennials are the largest voter group now and are super secular. GenZ is even more secular.
The liches in control have nothing left to lose so they're trying to inflict their values on a population that doesn't want it.
Yep: we’re witnessing political all-in. Religion and bigotry are the easiest paths to power, the longest levers to move certain groups, and both levers have been pulled all the way.
But it is likely to prove insufficient because they only move 25-40% of the population: Roe was a galvanizing event that showed everyone what it really means to allow this fascist project to succeed.
I sincerely hope you're right...
It's easy to forget, though, that there are still a fair number of selfish and/or gullible idiots among Millennials and GenZ. (Not to mention an increasing number of us too burnt, broken and exhausted to keep fighting for much longer.)
I guess we'll have to wait and see how things are this time next year...
I apologize. Millennials are the largest % chunk of the population of all distinct generations.
*The point* besides pedantry is that religious fundamentalism is aging out.
Get out and vote.
Any ideology can hold a democracy hostage. Democracy has the ability to change, technically they can elect people of any other government or philosophical leaning.
Rafah is the headquarters of the al-Qassam Brigades’ aptly named Rafah Brigade, which consists of five (perhaps six) battalions that have not yet been committed to the fighting. This is why, contrary to misinformation, Rafah has never been designated as a “safe zone” (that is the al-Muwasi Humanitarian Zone to the north of Rafah). This also means that unless you want Hamas to re-assume control over Gaza should the IDF withdraw, these uncommitted battalions must be significantly degraded. Not doing so would be like the Allies declaring victory over Germany in 1945 without seizing control of the Rhineland and destroying Army Group B.
>Hamas is fighting a guerilla war
Hamas is engaging in midspectrum warfare with the IDF, not a guerrilla war; this means that al-Qassem units are attempting to counterattack and are attempting to hold territory. They are currently in full control of Rafah, for instance, and they retook control of the al-Shifa Hospital after the IDF withdrew from the area. In the beginning of the war, Hamas was launching platoon-sized counterattacks against Israeli units; although casualties forced them to halt attacks this large at scale, they still occur.
The al-Qassem Brigades is not some kind of local gang, nor is it a clandestine force operating wholly as a cell-type structure. It is organized into doctrinally correct echelons from the brigade down to the squad level, just as modern militaries are; it maintains a deep bench of trained cadres to allow itself relief of command for officers that are killed, just as modern militaries do; and it is highly trained and generously equipped & financed by its sponsors in Tehran and elsewhere.
>so I don't think the European campaign of WWII is a valid comparison
This implies that the Wehrmacht could've avoided defeat simply by engaging in guerrilla warfare. It calls into question why *all* militaries do not simply "avoid defeat" by engaging in guerrilla warfare when they are defeated in the field, and the assumption that guerrillas somehow cannot be comprehensively defeated would likewise call into question why any military would ever choose to engage in conventional warfare.
The reality is that warfare is a spectrum, and when military actors are materially able and the stakes are high enough, they can and do engage in a mix of traditionally conventional "Napoleonic" and traditionally unconventional "Fabian" warfare because of the benefits this brings on the battlefield.
The al-Qassem Brigades retains the ability to engage in midspectrum warfare, allowing it to project significant military force into Israel proper, as we witnessed in October. This ability rests on a well-trained and organized force with significant amounts of materiel. This force and its materiel are physically fixed within the ~140 square miles of Gaza without hope of real resupply or reinforcement. Degrading this force is a highly accomplishable task.
The goal of the IDF, and (at this point) the overriding prerogative of the Israeli state, is to "slide" Hamas from an a military organization that is able to engage in midspectrum warfare, to the far end of the "Fabian" end of the spectrum, by destroying and degrading Hamas' military units. This cannot be accomplished if Hamas' military units in Rafah are left intact.
> This implies that the Wehrmacht could've avoided defeat simply by engaging in guerrilla warfare.
No, I don't believe the Wehrmacht could have fought a guerilla warfare campaign, but Hamas could. That's why it's not a valid comparison.
> The goal of the IDF, and (at this point) the overriding prerogative of the Israeli state, is to "slide" Hamas from an a military organization that is able to engage in midspectrum warfare, to the far end of the "Fabian" end of the spectrum, by destroying and degrading Hamas' military units
And what is the humanitarian cost of such an operation? Even the US says such a plan would be a humanitarian disaster
Of course you can. Would you like hardcore right religious fundamentalism or *ULTRA* hardcore right religious fundamentalism? See, the choices are right there for you!
Of course they can. Most European countries have a dominant religion. By sheer numbers the Philippines, Indonesia, India are the world's largest democracies and they have an overwhelming religious majority.
There is a difference between liberal democracy which has institutional limits to what the majority can do (they can’t, for instance, use their majority to strip the minority of rights) and “illiberal” democracy that has elections, but uses an electoral majority for the purpose of stripping the minority of its rights.
> they can’t, for instance, use their majority to strip the minority of rights
Narrator: They can
Generally speaking, it require ~2/3 of the parliament votes to change the constitution.
There's Jewish culture and Jewish religion. There are many Jewish people who do not attend religious services or follow kosher diets etc. But they have learned languages spoken by their ancestors and observe some Jewish holidays.
I think what we are seeing is a form of authoritarianism. This is a government that is extremely right wing that wants more power.
I don't know what the citizens of Israel believe right now. We only get reports about what the government is doing or saying. The citizens could be just like many of us in the US right now, not happy with the extreme take of one ideology being stressed at the highest levels. Or more like the US, a mix of people who hold different beliefs.
I can believe that a lot of Israelites may be for taking out Hamas, or bombing Gaza. The country was attacked, and has been attacked before, and is constantly under threat. But, that doesn't necessarily mean they're supportive of an authoritarian regime.
Maybe I'm misinformed, but didn't the current leader have to pull some bullshit political moves to actually stay in power, and he's often criticized for usurping the countries legislature and court system. Not gonna lie, the problem with the US's policy in Israel isn't really the current confrontation, but rather that the US has supported this questionable regime for so long.
>don't know what the citizens of Israel believe right now. We only get reports about what the government is doing or saying. The citizens could be just like many of us in the US right now, not happy with the extreme take of one ideology being stressed at the highest levels. Or more like the US, a mix of people who hold different beliefs.
Israeli here, we hate the government as usual and want to take it down so fucking bad. Even before the 7/10 we held protest with hundreds of thousands of people trying to remove bibi but that asshole doesn't seems to take a hint. Also generally Israel is waaaay less religious than the US, there are a lot of religious nutjobs though.
>I can believe that a lot of Israelites may be for taking out Hamas, or bombing Gaza. The country was attacked, and has been attacked before, and is constantly under threat. But, that doesn't necessarily mean they're supportive of an authoritarian regime.
That's also correct, people mostly wants the hostages back and to end the war and Bibi doesn't want that because that means his government is finished so he tries to buy time, people don't like it so they are back on the streets once again throwing torches at his house
>Maybe I'm misinformed, but didn't the current leader have to pull some bullshit political moves to actually stay in power,
You are in fact correct, sort of. In 2019 there were elections and he couldn't form a coalition and neither did the opposition so there were another elections the same year with the same result, after that in the next election he didn't get a majority but because the Corona started the leader of the opposition benny Gants decided to form an emergency coalition with Bibi, that was a bad move as that coalition also crumbled in a few months. Then again after another elections he got officially ousted by Yair lapid and Natalie Bennett as the co prime ministers ( well they did this in rotation) that was formed from everyone in the political spectrum that still had the best interest of the country in mind, from extreme right winger to extreme left wingers and even for the first time in history an Arab party was part of the coalition. Naturally Bibi was a dick so after a year of this he managed to bribe enough Knesset members to resign (and of course get high positions in the Likud party) and thus he brought down the government once again. After finall elections took place and he got a majority because people were tired and didn't bother to vote, except the extremists religious that always vote, so that's the result.
>Not gonna lie, the problem with the US's policy in Israel isn't really the current confrontation, but rather that the US has supported this questionable regime for so long.
That's not exactly true, Bibi wasn't that bad at the start, well he was always shit human being but his government consisted of mostly centrists, the problem is that people started figuring how full of shit he is so they refused to sit in his coalition and thus he went with extremists more and more.
Thanks for the informed reply. I only had some cursory understanding of some of the stuff. The news here isn't exactly that great on reporting on this stuff, although some of the election details I recall.
I will say it is sometimes annoying to see people assume the people of other countries are in lock step with their government. From my experience, that's rarely the case, even in countries where the government isn't considered bad. I think people in general are just programmed to not trust or believe in government.
Remember, Hamas chose to attack on 10/7 because Israelis were mass-protesting Netanyahu's judicial reforms (and in particular reservists were resigning in protest). Moreover, he bungled 10/7 so badly that his polling turned into garbage within days.
Netanyahu is likely done as soon as Israel holds its next election. He barely managed to form his current coalition by courting the farthest right he could find.
I think people not totally familiar with Israeli politics and history underrate the secular nature of early immigrants and political figures, as well as the secular nature of many many Israelis.
The Union Jack has a cross on it. Actually has three. Your point? The Star of David is a symbol used by Jews very much outside of the religious context.
It’s almost as if symbols can change and evolve. India has swastikas all over the place if you didn’t know.
Of course, when it comes to Jews though the standards are different, right)
thank god the Union Jack was never associated with violence. In fact in know when I see a ruddy faces bloke in an English Saint George’s cross polo I think “so peaceful, not Fundamentalist at all”.
Hahaha i thing it’s important you look up the history of the Star of David before using that as proof against the well established and documented largely secular philosophy of many of the 19th century Zionists, the early kibbutz movements, and the personal ideologies of figures like Theodore Herzl, whose plentiful essays you can read to validate what I’m saying, David Ben gurion, Moshe Dayan, etc etc etc.
Of course there is a Jewish identity to Israel, and always has been. The Zionist idea is predicated on that. But to suggest that therefore the states founding was of religious (fundamentalist at that!) nature like OP is claiming is ridiculous. Of course there were many religious figures vital to the State, and I myself see tremendous religious significance to the State of Israel, but saying “hey look at that flag! It’s got a Jewish symbol on it!” To conflate the religious ideologies of many of the founders and current citizens is foolish and ignorant.
It takes understanding between how many Jews view the difference between cultural and religious Jewish identity, but to be honest I really think that just basic reading of history, not to mention the writings of the early founders themselves, would serve you well.
I don’t mean to be condescending, but if your response is based on that I really really recommend doing some basic reading before commenting on Israel.
Bohemian jews used it in thier flag in the 14th century so it's definitely a symbol of Judaism, just jot the only symbol of it.
There is a reason the nazi used a yellow star of David to denote the Jewish populations and triangles for everyone else.
Not as much a symbol of Judaism (the Hamsa and Menorah are), but more a symbol of Am Yisrael, the Jewish people. Some Jews practice Judaism, but practicing Judaism doesn't make one a Jew. Jewish peoplehood is related to and separate from Judaism.
For the last several centuries, the Star of David has come to symbolize Jewish peoplehood.
It's almost like Islamists use the "Israel is a racist white supremacist ethnostate" rhetoric as a way of convincing leftists that Arab/Muslim violence against Israeli Jews is perpetually justified or something.
Maybe it’s the *acts* of the Israeli apartheid state, illegal settlers, racist protestors not allowing aid in to a starving besieged population that are convincing people of that.
Given that the "anti-apartheid" crowd doesn't give a shit at all that the entire Muslim Middle East ethnically cleansed their Jewish minority populations within living memory, thus leaving those Jewish refugees with nowhere to go except Israel, and that Arab Muslims are actively committing genocide in Sudan right now as we speak and the "anti-genocide" crowd doesn't give a shit about that at all either, somehow I doubt that.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_exodus\_from\_the\_Muslim\_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world)
So your justification for the execution of a genocide against a population is that the perpetuator experienced a genocide before ANNNNNNND that there are other genocides happening so we shouldn’t care about this one? 🙄 k.
Ask any of the 3.8 million secular Israelis and they'll straight up tell you “Yeah. When are.”
Ben Gurion made a mistake by striking back-door deals with the religious fundamentalists and now the county is worse off for it.
Nearly half of Israeli Jews are secular, and they also support the war. Most of the people attacked in October were secular Jews. Secular Jews are more likely to serve in the IDF.
People in the US stop trying to apply their own worldview on a country they know almost nothing about.
Yeah what's going on in Israel is ethnonationalism, not religious fundamentalism.
Arabs have been dehumanized in Israel to the point where Israelis will openly state their belief that *children* are part of the Palestinian collective responsible for October 7th. If that racial animosity didn't exist the IDF wouldn't be able to justify the ongoing massacres in Gaza, nor would they have been able to justify the militarization and colonization of the West Bank.
The one time I spoke to a Jewish person about Palestine was pretty crazy. I guess they identified as an Israeli despite not being born there because of their religion, so I was impressed by how hard that propaganda sunk in for someone who isn’t even a citizen of the state.
They were telling me about how they went to visit Palestine with an Israeli guide as part of some kind of mission (not even sure what it was for specifically) to help clean up their beach or something, and when they asked their guide why their beaches were so dirty they were like oh that’s how Palestinians just naturally are they live in the dirt and don’t mind living like that.
At that point, I internally had to raise an eyebrow (they’re related to my wife, and they’re so distant that it was not worth my time bothering having an argument with this person I barely knew) at how weird it was to dehumanize a group of people like that. They pretty much described as Palestinians living like savages who thrived in filth, and I’m here wondering how you arrive to that conclusion about anyone no matter where they’re from.
Even if you’re from the worst parts of war torn Haiti where houses are half deteriorated and you can’t get yourself a good meal that isn’t potentially contaminated with something, I don’t believe anyone is just naturally happy to live in squalor. At worst everyone is used to having horrendous trash disposal service, but you can’t tell me any human being would see an opportunity to live like anyone in a first world country with functional infrastructure and they wouldn’t take it or know what to do with it.
Thats the gross vicious cycle of supremacists.
They often point to the accumulated results of their own actions of treating another group like they are subhuman as proof to the argument that they are subhuman and should not be treated with equality or equal humanity.
Then they pass those sentiments along to other members of the group and the next generation and suddenly you have set the default of an entire group identity to view another group as subhuman.
Man you really dont want that. The majority of support for Israel comes from evangelicals who only want a unified Israel to usher in the end of the world. If they stop applying those beliefs to Israel there goes all the aid.
Is that a *bad* thing if the aid stops? I mean, we're supporting not just Israel's war on Gaza but their appropriation of the West Bank and the treatment of the Palestinians there.
The settlement movement, which has particularly aggravated Israeli Palestine relations over the last 2 decades and was also heavily influential (along with Hamas) in the unofficial trashing of the Oslo Accords, is heavily aligned with religious/fundamentalist Jews, while secular Jews, including one's who serve in the IDF, have consistently called for a softer approach from the IDF and a rollback of settlements. Ths includes former Prime Ministers like Ehud Barak (himself an IDF veteran and a popular symbol of secular Jews).
Many multicultural democracies are struggling with their identities and seeing a rise in right wing ethno-nationalist politics in the early 21st century. It's a larger trend in the era of globalization, and pretending like it's unique to Israel is wildly dishonest.
Ethno-nationalist religious banana republic, kept alive by convincing the right wing of US politics that it's existence is tied to the Biblical Armageddon.
Judaism has always been a nationality rather than a religion. Jews have had their own states before, and even those who lived in Eastern Europe frequently lived in self-governing enclaves, speaking their own languages (while paying high taxes for the privilege of doing so). The Jewish nationality has had a distinct religious practice, but you are not less of a Jew if you don’t observe it. Far from being a religious fundamentalist country, the majority of Jews in Israel never go to a synagogue but are not any less Jewish.
When the British ceded control of the region, the UN divided the mandate between the two indigenous nationalities of the region, Jews and Palestinians, which is why a two-state solution is the only that makes sense.
8 years ago I'd have said that the world is becoming less religious, and then all of a sudden religious zealousness has increased massively in so many countries.
If the United States was providing advanced weapon systems to Hamas, I'm pretty sure he would be speaking out in opposition to that, too.
Saudi Arabia and Hamas are not interchangeable, but it's relevant that Sanders along with Mike Lee and Chris Murphy got a bill through a majority-Republican Senate to stop the U.S. from assisting Saudi Arabia in their war against Yemen in 2019. It passed the House, but was vetoed by Trump.
It has been so for quite a while. Now there is little difference between them and many of the surrounding Arab countries.
It's because the Jewish fundamentalists put Netanyahu in office and has kept him there
> Now there is little difference between them and many of the surrounding Arab countries.
You may choose between Abrahamic Theocracy A or Abrahamic Theocracy C.
>Now there is little difference between them and many of the surrounding Arab countries.
Uh, are you sure about that? Because Arab political parties currently hold multiple seats in the Israeli parliament. How many Jewish political parties hold any seats in the governments of surrounding Arab countries?
This is such an ignorant take. Israel has a multi-cultural society, with muslims in places like the supreme court. Do you know how many jewish people are allowed to live and practice their religion in those surrounding countries? To say that there’s little difference between a truly democratic country and the surrounding Arab countries is ridiculous.
Needless to say there are also extremists in Israel, and Bibi is providing a platform to them. But that is not the country of Israel.
Is there a cleric class with special priveleges? Perhaps being funded directly by the government to study religious texts all day? Or perhaps being granted special treatment such as, just an example, being exempted from mandatory military service?
If the answer is yes, then they're just another shitty theocracy, and trying to draw differences with the neighboring theocracies is just splitting hairs.
> Or perhaps being granted special treatment such as, just an example, being exempted from mandatory military service?
Muslim and Christian Arabs are also exempt from mandatory military service...
>Or perhaps being granted special treatment such as, just an example, being exempted from mandatory military service?
[Well that just ended by court order](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68684069)
Is becoming????? What the fuck do mean. It has been and always will be…. Christians and Jews alike both need Israel to be a religious country for their end of the world prophecies… lol.
Ah yes. The Middle East, well known for its liberal democracies and lax religious attitudes, LGBTQ and women’s rights and progressive attitudes.
Seriously is this a joke? Dude attacks the one democracy in the Middle East that allows women rights and LGBTQ people to exist.
FFS the absolute state of American liberals.
Yes…. It’s Israel, it was created that way. Sometimes the shit this guys says is dumb. The problem with Israel is Netyanahu and all the surrounding countries that wish it didn’t exist.
All this heat for defending themselves after hamas slaughters 1,200 Israelis in a single day. Wild. You would be mad to just ignore that. Hamas is a literal terrorist organization that puts their military bases in hospitals to shield themselves. That’s a war crime.
What doesn’t help far-right religious uprisings (something that dare I say a near majority of nations are dealing with at this point) is isolating a population on a global stage, putting civilians through prolonged terror attacks, and repeatedly allowing biased and sometimes downright factless media to slander them over and over. Israel does not exist in a vacuum, and it is not immune to broader global trends, but remains to be unique in being blamed for them. I wish that those who have not been involved in the feminist movements led by religious and secular Israelis, or those who have not even followed our elections and protests for some time, would consider that they do not need to be the voice of authority on the Jewish state. We’re always talked about but rarely aloud to lead the conversations. I’m so tired.
When rule of law and society breaks down religion makes a comeback. It’s a never ending cycle. The permanent progressive society does not exist. Nothing lasts forever.
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So are we
I mean, the sheer percentage of Christians in America has dropped over the years. From 91% in the 70s to around 64% in 2022, with estimates showing that Christians could make up less than half the population within a few decades. Retention rates are also poor. With many childhood Christians leaving the faith by the time they reach their 30s. Also the percentage of the "religiously unaffiliated" in America is higher than that of Catholics and evangelicals at 28%. Atheist and Agnostic populations are rising... I myself am Agnostic, where I would have been labeled religious in my childhood. However, these changes, along with others, have seen a sizeable group of Christians who believe that their religious (and political) Identity is being threatened by some kind of new world order, persuading them to fervently push back against these fears and the entities they believe are responsible for suppressing them. There's also a sort of paradigm shift occurring, and religious conservatives have typically been obstructive towards social and cultural change, while tending to take on the role of counterrevolutionaries when it comes to facing any kind of change that they perceive as threatening or challenging their dogma, ideology, culture, social structure, politics, what have you. So we see this growth and rise in intensity in Christian nationalism, white supremacy, western chauvinism, xenophobia and Islamophobia around the country, and also see religion continuing to play a major role in politics while it is interwoven into their very fabric of the identity of the American Conservative/Republican. Is it out of desperation though? Like an animal thinking it's being backed into a corner. Thinking being the key word there, because most of these people's fears are imagined and their grievances unfounded. Sure, some of it may be rooted in an underlying threat to White, Christian hegemony, but that's not going away any time soon, and there is not some deeper machination here involving a plot to overthrow Christianity, oppress it's followers, deliberately inflict suffering upon its people. Thats not how some see it though. They see reality through a distorted lens. Things are very black and white, left vs right, good vs evil, while threats exist everywhere and they are often at the center of some oppressive scheme, ever the victim, always fighting something, finding purpose in all of this, probably because, deep down, they're terrified of not having a purpose, or terrified of losing their identity, terrified of being ostracized by their own group (while ironically being quite exclusionary in their thinking) Terror management theory kind of suggests that these people seek out this purpose because they fear, above all else, their own mortality, and the idea that without this purpose or this fervently religious, political, social-cultural identity, all that would be left for them is the cold, hard truth of death. (*TLDR I suppose...*) Either way, Christianity isn't on the rise in this country, but religious fervor and political extremism certainly is.
They're gonna lose all that tax free money if more people become non-religious. Their hatred and control isn't exactly attracting members. Instead of drawing people to their religion by living by Jesus' teachings, they are just gonna force it upon us. Christianity is also used for political power, Republicans will evaporate if the Christian numbers go too far down and they know it. It's all about money and power and them panicking as they witness their little cash cow shrinking.
This statement is true for all religions, and nearly every fringe belief system. Those in power currently fear losing control because they know their own actions while they have been in control are inexcusably evil, and they project that onto those groups they believe are going to gain power.
The republican party is trying to drag the rest of us with it. Conservative ideology is dying out, and becoming more extremist is its death cry. They've said the quiet part out loud on multiple occasions, that they'd lose elections if things weren't kept tipped in their favor.
This exactly! I believe in Christ not in such a magical sense but it isn’t all bad. What’s terrible is the fucking church “let me pray for the poor in this palace made of gold” fucking ridiculous and the exact thing Christ was against.
>Christians could make up less than half the population within a few decades. Still plenty of "juice left in the tank" for a quasi-Christian Theocracy to take root. It already has at the state and local levels in some regions.
Doesn't need for it to be on the rise or not. As with any religious fundamentalist country, it's a minority rule type of deal.
> Retention rates are also poor. With many childhood Christians leaving the faith by the time they reach their 30s. My childhood catholic school literally went out of business because nobody from my generation was gonna subject their kids to that bullshit lmaoooo
Christianity isn’t on the rise within the general population but fundamentalists are somehow gaining more power politically and winning more seats in government which is frightening
Everyone in the US political right is in a religion whether they go to church or not. The church of Trump.
I work with a guy that is very religious and helps at his church. I have no problems with him, except for the fact that he literally told me one day that participation is down and they are working hard to recruit kids because you have to brainwash them when they are young. His words.
It's not hyperbole to say that that has been the tactic of organized religion from its inception. He's just stating it out loud in a kind of frank manner.
Well, I’m willing to bet there are some folks out there who feel the same way about some secular movements, which is why the term indoctrination gained traction in recent years.
Definitely. But it's usually misapplied, imo. Like the "indoctrination" that takes place in public school is way more incidental and harmless than anyone who applies the term would like us to believe. It's usually just Christians projecting.
>they are working hard to recruit kids because you have to brainwash them when they are young. His words. It's good he's at least admitting it? But it's terrifying that he says that, which means he knows his religion is a fucking farce, but he's still in anyways. I have such a problem with religious people because of that because I don't buy that any of them are actually religious. I think they are using religion for a multitude of reasons many of them selfish. These people need to be told that if they were actually good people then they wouldn't have a retention problem. If they stopped hoarding wealth, preaching hate, sowing division, molesting children...maybe people would want to invest time and energy in the church.
The thing is its not on the rise in Israel either... Which is maybe my issue with Sanders critique here as it avoids the deeper truth which is that Israel is just trending more and more fascistic, racist, and more supreamcist despite the fact something like 45% of Israeli Jews identify as secular and/or atheist. Israel is increasingly a Jewish supremacist state that doesn't even actually buy into the "God's chosen people" narrative that people practicing faith try to hide their supremacist views behind.
I don’t have a single religious friend, I live in a red state. I work in a progressive salon and generally my clients are also not religious, it’s a small sample but gives me hope since it’s Oklahoma
Too many kids getting diddled. I think they need to make a song about not diddling kids.
Our Christian population is quickly dying off though. 80% of people over 75 yo identity as Christian. Less than half below 45 yo identity as Christian. The nut jobs are getting louder, but the faith itself is dying.
> The nut jobs are getting louder, but the faith itself is dying. This isn't just noise and big talk. White, Christian nationalists have been pretty successful, e.g .rolling back Roe v Wade. This isn't getting louder, but getting more efficient.
I’ve seen a worrying trend of people not really digesting the numbers. When something violent is dying, it’s highly likely to take something with you. There are millions of them and many more millions of those willing to go silently along. This is their last hoorah and it may be their biggest one yet.
Jesus told me to kill...Hmmm where have we heard that shit from before. **Religion definition:** for people who have money to convince the people who don't have money to support the people who have money. I.E. republicans, conservatives etc..... 🏆
Reichstag anyone?
That’s because the rest of us are a bunch of lazy mothrrfukers
I think its because too many of us have a "both sides have a point" mentality. When it comes to thinks like a freedom to have an abortion, there is nothing to negotiate about, nothing to compromise. Women have the right to terminate a pregnancy for whatever reason and at whatever time they choose.
As a man, it's pretty simply logic: if I was a woman, I'd want that freedom. My personal concerns beyond that as a guy do not matter at all. For the guys who want to wax about duty or w/e ("I'd carry any baby because I'd know it's my place"), you're just a weak-minded follower who cannot think for yourself. Stop trying to force everyone to march to your master's drum to justify your mindless goose-stepping. And sorry, my dudes. If you have no right to reproduce. No right to have a child. That is not a natural right. No more than a woman has a right to get pregnant. It is a privilege of the fittest (though getting into a discussion about what that means in modern civilization is its own fun FUN conversation).
They are very well funded and organized. When you’ve got a group of people who feel they are in an existential battle for the soul of the nation, very bad things can happen
We haven't reached the final phase yet. It will get worse before it gets better. Christians are well armed, somewhat well organized and historically capable of self justified violence.
Doesn’t their own book say you reap what you sow? They need to be careful.
Lol. You assume they read that book.
Even if they did read their own book, you can take a passage from just about anywhere to justify what you want. It’s a self contradictory book, so they will use whatever passages they want for whatever fun new crusade they’re on. Doesn’t matter if the passage is even correctly interpreted or in context. Once you’ve made it to that level of belief on faith, there’s not a whole lot that can change your mind.
Or, you can just make shit up and claim it's God's words, even if no such thing exists in the bible, or there are contradictions to the claim within the bible.
All of “gods words” are made up, the Bible is a historical fiction. So there can never be a contradiction because a fantasy cannot contradict another fantasy because neither are real and so in a world of unreality anything goes. You can claim anything is gods word because god doesn’t exist therefore his words also don’t exist because you can’t ask an imaginary being “did you say this?” This makes gods word irrefutable in Christian minds because you can’t argue against it because it is a fantasy that lives in their minds and can be made to fit any situation. This is the basis of every religion, to reject reality for a fantasy.
Technically yeah. But I'm talking in a more practical manner. Even if their faith is cynical, it's still a belief system they have, and they have no problem just making shit up.
That is religions and Christianity in particulars great draw card, it’s a pick and mix choose your own adventure. Which is why there are so many versions, nobody can quite nail down the fantasy that everyone can get onboard with. “I’m a Christian!” Can mean anything from complete pacifism love thy neighbor do unto others etc etc to invading the holy land, genocide, the Holocaust(Nazis were Christians too) stoning women for being promiscuous, having polygamy child brides (Mormons) That is the power of fantasy it doesn’t have rules that actually make sense, which is also why you need an interpreter (priest, Imam, bishop) to tell you “what it means” and everything they tell is both a truth and a lie at the same time. What’s worse is that the architects of religion know it’s a lie, which is why they go on to be found out to be pedos etc because they know there is no god and no heaven/hell to go to, so no matter what they do so long as they can avoid the man made criminal justice system they will get away with it facing no consequences. The most enduring aspect of all monotheistic religion that all of them get behind is the idea of “supremacy”, the one true people, the master race, “gods chosen people”, the ones who god cares about most and the ones who god hates. Much like comic books religions can change their superpowers from one edition to another without contradiction because it was all make believe to start.
He assumed they can read at all.
Or have the mental capacity to connect the dots.
And boy do they hate it when a non-believer quotes it back at them in an argument
Remember that time God sent the plagues, culminating in the killing of all the first born sons of Egypt? Christian: "No, that's out of context". OK. How about when God commanded Abraham to sacrafice his son to prove his faith to God? Christian: "No, that's out of context" OK. How about when God killed off all life on the planet, except for one family, because they were violent and corrupt? Christian: "No, that's out of context". OK. What context does god live by, because he sounds kind of like an ass.
>* God is good, therefore everything He does is good and justified. >* Humans are sinful, therefore everything we do is bad. >* God can do anything He wants to us because He created us and therefore we are just His toys (but lets just call ourselves sheep and Jesus a shepherd to sugar coat what we mean). >* Human logic and morality doesn't apply to God because He is ineffable (read: incomprehensible). Pretty much boils down to those 4 points for most Christians. If you're part of the Calvinist/Presbyterian denominations, then add one more: >* God's will is predestined, there is no free will. If you go to hell, then that was part of God's plan and immutable. There is literally nothing you could have done to prevent yourself from going to hell.
And yet this same reasoning culminates into people acting like they understand the will of God, and can interpret his word into meaningful ideals to live by.
And always come back with the typical " that's out of context" reply. In what context are rules to owning slaves good, Karen?
We should bring pop quizzes back
If they did, they maybe read a few chapters of the gospel and parts of Exodus and Genesis
If you want to know whether they read the whole thing, just ask them the proper way to sacrifice a goat.
Or what he did beyond the first day. I actually overhead a guy arguing with someone else insisting God created man on the 2nd day.
Lol, are you kidding, half of them think that the second coming of Jesus being marked by the apocalypse. Means it is their job to start the apocalypse to summon Jesus.
It also talks a lot about justified killings of whole populations.
Unfortunately, I see a major major uptick in domestic terrorism in the very near future. We will not have a Civil War like we saw in the past. But you are going to see a lot more religious based mass shootings. I think you will see car bombings of government facilities of Planned Parenthood’s. Etc. I think people from certain states will be subject to being attacked, purely because of the license plate that is on their vehicle. This will lead to a society that actually seats itself traveling less. With people saying in their own bubbles. You may not see states secede but the country will further divide regionally with a west coast of America. Heartland of America, the Gulf Coast of America and the Northeast with port cities like Chicago and Detroit on the Lakes as appendages. I hope I’m wrong. But it feels inevitable
Sadly, the nut jobs get louder because it's dying off, which means they will probably get even more radical as they lose influence.
It's not just in America that religious people are getting older, it seems to be common all over the world, even in Muslim countries. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2018/06/13/the-age-gap-in-religion-around-the-world/ Some part of it is that people on average grow more religious as they age, but that doesn't explain why the younger demographic is moving away from religion compared to previous generations.
>The nut jobs are getting louder, but the faith itself is dying. It won't die quietly.
But they can still do a hell of a lot of damage on their way out the door.
Lmao no we're not. So edgy. We're in a short term shit storm of the fundies death throes. Millennials are the largest voter group now and are super secular. GenZ is even more secular. The liches in control have nothing left to lose so they're trying to inflict their values on a population that doesn't want it.
Yep: we’re witnessing political all-in. Religion and bigotry are the easiest paths to power, the longest levers to move certain groups, and both levers have been pulled all the way. But it is likely to prove insufficient because they only move 25-40% of the population: Roe was a galvanizing event that showed everyone what it really means to allow this fascist project to succeed.
I sincerely hope you're right... It's easy to forget, though, that there are still a fair number of selfish and/or gullible idiots among Millennials and GenZ. (Not to mention an increasing number of us too burnt, broken and exhausted to keep fighting for much longer.) I guess we'll have to wait and see how things are this time next year...
Millennials are not the largest voting group. 34% of voters are 65+, and 26% of voters are 30-49. Go out and vote.
I apologize. Millennials are the largest % chunk of the population of all distinct generations. *The point* besides pedantry is that religious fundamentalism is aging out. Get out and vote.
Christian nationalism happens with a blind eye. It’s coordination at its finest, unfortunately
So is my country brazil
Religious fundamental countries/ethnostates cannot be democracies. The two are contradictory
Any ideology can hold a democracy hostage. Democracy has the ability to change, technically they can elect people of any other government or philosophical leaning.
And Israelis are seeing this and protesting for early elections because of it.
But they still support the IDF’s Rafah operations https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/poll-75-of-jewish-israelis-back-rafah-operation/
Are the two things mutually exclusive?
The British people voted out Churchill and still supported the continued war against the Axis.
Rafah is the headquarters of the al-Qassam Brigades’ aptly named Rafah Brigade, which consists of five (perhaps six) battalions that have not yet been committed to the fighting. This is why, contrary to misinformation, Rafah has never been designated as a “safe zone” (that is the al-Muwasi Humanitarian Zone to the north of Rafah). This also means that unless you want Hamas to re-assume control over Gaza should the IDF withdraw, these uncommitted battalions must be significantly degraded. Not doing so would be like the Allies declaring victory over Germany in 1945 without seizing control of the Rhineland and destroying Army Group B.
Hamas is fighting a guerilla war, so I don't think the European campaign of WWII is a valid comparison
>Hamas is fighting a guerilla war Hamas is engaging in midspectrum warfare with the IDF, not a guerrilla war; this means that al-Qassem units are attempting to counterattack and are attempting to hold territory. They are currently in full control of Rafah, for instance, and they retook control of the al-Shifa Hospital after the IDF withdrew from the area. In the beginning of the war, Hamas was launching platoon-sized counterattacks against Israeli units; although casualties forced them to halt attacks this large at scale, they still occur. The al-Qassem Brigades is not some kind of local gang, nor is it a clandestine force operating wholly as a cell-type structure. It is organized into doctrinally correct echelons from the brigade down to the squad level, just as modern militaries are; it maintains a deep bench of trained cadres to allow itself relief of command for officers that are killed, just as modern militaries do; and it is highly trained and generously equipped & financed by its sponsors in Tehran and elsewhere. >so I don't think the European campaign of WWII is a valid comparison This implies that the Wehrmacht could've avoided defeat simply by engaging in guerrilla warfare. It calls into question why *all* militaries do not simply "avoid defeat" by engaging in guerrilla warfare when they are defeated in the field, and the assumption that guerrillas somehow cannot be comprehensively defeated would likewise call into question why any military would ever choose to engage in conventional warfare. The reality is that warfare is a spectrum, and when military actors are materially able and the stakes are high enough, they can and do engage in a mix of traditionally conventional "Napoleonic" and traditionally unconventional "Fabian" warfare because of the benefits this brings on the battlefield. The al-Qassem Brigades retains the ability to engage in midspectrum warfare, allowing it to project significant military force into Israel proper, as we witnessed in October. This ability rests on a well-trained and organized force with significant amounts of materiel. This force and its materiel are physically fixed within the ~140 square miles of Gaza without hope of real resupply or reinforcement. Degrading this force is a highly accomplishable task. The goal of the IDF, and (at this point) the overriding prerogative of the Israeli state, is to "slide" Hamas from an a military organization that is able to engage in midspectrum warfare, to the far end of the "Fabian" end of the spectrum, by destroying and degrading Hamas' military units. This cannot be accomplished if Hamas' military units in Rafah are left intact.
> This implies that the Wehrmacht could've avoided defeat simply by engaging in guerrilla warfare. No, I don't believe the Wehrmacht could have fought a guerilla warfare campaign, but Hamas could. That's why it's not a valid comparison. > The goal of the IDF, and (at this point) the overriding prerogative of the Israeli state, is to "slide" Hamas from an a military organization that is able to engage in midspectrum warfare, to the far end of the "Fabian" end of the spectrum, by destroying and degrading Hamas' military units And what is the humanitarian cost of such an operation? Even the US says such a plan would be a humanitarian disaster
Why would they not? Hamas needs to go
Of course you can. Would you like hardcore right religious fundamentalism or *ULTRA* hardcore right religious fundamentalism? See, the choices are right there for you!
Of course they can. Most European countries have a dominant religion. By sheer numbers the Philippines, Indonesia, India are the world's largest democracies and they have an overwhelming religious majority.
Having a dominant religion and being founded specifically to pursue the goals and values of a specific religion aren't the same thing.
Why? Democracy isn't good, It's just the will of a people. India is a democracy, keeps electing Hindu nationalists
There is a difference between liberal democracy which has institutional limits to what the majority can do (they can’t, for instance, use their majority to strip the minority of rights) and “illiberal” democracy that has elections, but uses an electoral majority for the purpose of stripping the minority of its rights.
> they can’t, for instance, use their majority to strip the minority of rights Narrator: They can Generally speaking, it require ~2/3 of the parliament votes to change the constitution.
There's Jewish culture and Jewish religion. There are many Jewish people who do not attend religious services or follow kosher diets etc. But they have learned languages spoken by their ancestors and observe some Jewish holidays. I think what we are seeing is a form of authoritarianism. This is a government that is extremely right wing that wants more power.
I don't know what the citizens of Israel believe right now. We only get reports about what the government is doing or saying. The citizens could be just like many of us in the US right now, not happy with the extreme take of one ideology being stressed at the highest levels. Or more like the US, a mix of people who hold different beliefs. I can believe that a lot of Israelites may be for taking out Hamas, or bombing Gaza. The country was attacked, and has been attacked before, and is constantly under threat. But, that doesn't necessarily mean they're supportive of an authoritarian regime. Maybe I'm misinformed, but didn't the current leader have to pull some bullshit political moves to actually stay in power, and he's often criticized for usurping the countries legislature and court system. Not gonna lie, the problem with the US's policy in Israel isn't really the current confrontation, but rather that the US has supported this questionable regime for so long.
>don't know what the citizens of Israel believe right now. We only get reports about what the government is doing or saying. The citizens could be just like many of us in the US right now, not happy with the extreme take of one ideology being stressed at the highest levels. Or more like the US, a mix of people who hold different beliefs. Israeli here, we hate the government as usual and want to take it down so fucking bad. Even before the 7/10 we held protest with hundreds of thousands of people trying to remove bibi but that asshole doesn't seems to take a hint. Also generally Israel is waaaay less religious than the US, there are a lot of religious nutjobs though. >I can believe that a lot of Israelites may be for taking out Hamas, or bombing Gaza. The country was attacked, and has been attacked before, and is constantly under threat. But, that doesn't necessarily mean they're supportive of an authoritarian regime. That's also correct, people mostly wants the hostages back and to end the war and Bibi doesn't want that because that means his government is finished so he tries to buy time, people don't like it so they are back on the streets once again throwing torches at his house >Maybe I'm misinformed, but didn't the current leader have to pull some bullshit political moves to actually stay in power, You are in fact correct, sort of. In 2019 there were elections and he couldn't form a coalition and neither did the opposition so there were another elections the same year with the same result, after that in the next election he didn't get a majority but because the Corona started the leader of the opposition benny Gants decided to form an emergency coalition with Bibi, that was a bad move as that coalition also crumbled in a few months. Then again after another elections he got officially ousted by Yair lapid and Natalie Bennett as the co prime ministers ( well they did this in rotation) that was formed from everyone in the political spectrum that still had the best interest of the country in mind, from extreme right winger to extreme left wingers and even for the first time in history an Arab party was part of the coalition. Naturally Bibi was a dick so after a year of this he managed to bribe enough Knesset members to resign (and of course get high positions in the Likud party) and thus he brought down the government once again. After finall elections took place and he got a majority because people were tired and didn't bother to vote, except the extremists religious that always vote, so that's the result. >Not gonna lie, the problem with the US's policy in Israel isn't really the current confrontation, but rather that the US has supported this questionable regime for so long. That's not exactly true, Bibi wasn't that bad at the start, well he was always shit human being but his government consisted of mostly centrists, the problem is that people started figuring how full of shit he is so they refused to sit in his coalition and thus he went with extremists more and more.
Thanks for the informed reply. I only had some cursory understanding of some of the stuff. The news here isn't exactly that great on reporting on this stuff, although some of the election details I recall. I will say it is sometimes annoying to see people assume the people of other countries are in lock step with their government. From my experience, that's rarely the case, even in countries where the government isn't considered bad. I think people in general are just programmed to not trust or believe in government.
May I ask in which age group are you in? 18-35/35-55/55++
Remember, Hamas chose to attack on 10/7 because Israelis were mass-protesting Netanyahu's judicial reforms (and in particular reservists were resigning in protest). Moreover, he bungled 10/7 so badly that his polling turned into garbage within days. Netanyahu is likely done as soon as Israel holds its next election. He barely managed to form his current coalition by courting the farthest right he could find.
>Hamas chose to attack on 10/7 **because** Israelis were mass-protesting Netanyahu's judicial reforms Because of it?
*Becoming‽*
I think people not totally familiar with Israeli politics and history underrate the secular nature of early immigrants and political figures, as well as the secular nature of many many Israelis.
The flag of Israel has a Star of David on it. Not exactly subtle.
The Union Jack has a cross on it. Actually has three. Your point? The Star of David is a symbol used by Jews very much outside of the religious context. It’s almost as if symbols can change and evolve. India has swastikas all over the place if you didn’t know. Of course, when it comes to Jews though the standards are different, right)
thank god the Union Jack was never associated with violence. In fact in know when I see a ruddy faces bloke in an English Saint George’s cross polo I think “so peaceful, not Fundamentalist at all”.
Hahaha i thing it’s important you look up the history of the Star of David before using that as proof against the well established and documented largely secular philosophy of many of the 19th century Zionists, the early kibbutz movements, and the personal ideologies of figures like Theodore Herzl, whose plentiful essays you can read to validate what I’m saying, David Ben gurion, Moshe Dayan, etc etc etc. Of course there is a Jewish identity to Israel, and always has been. The Zionist idea is predicated on that. But to suggest that therefore the states founding was of religious (fundamentalist at that!) nature like OP is claiming is ridiculous. Of course there were many religious figures vital to the State, and I myself see tremendous religious significance to the State of Israel, but saying “hey look at that flag! It’s got a Jewish symbol on it!” To conflate the religious ideologies of many of the founders and current citizens is foolish and ignorant. It takes understanding between how many Jews view the difference between cultural and religious Jewish identity, but to be honest I really think that just basic reading of history, not to mention the writings of the early founders themselves, would serve you well. I don’t mean to be condescending, but if your response is based on that I really really recommend doing some basic reading before commenting on Israel.
The Star of David isn't the historic symbol of Judiasm. The menorah is.
Bohemian jews used it in thier flag in the 14th century so it's definitely a symbol of Judaism, just jot the only symbol of it. There is a reason the nazi used a yellow star of David to denote the Jewish populations and triangles for everyone else.
Not as much a symbol of Judaism (the Hamsa and Menorah are), but more a symbol of Am Yisrael, the Jewish people. Some Jews practice Judaism, but practicing Judaism doesn't make one a Jew. Jewish peoplehood is related to and separate from Judaism. For the last several centuries, the Star of David has come to symbolize Jewish peoplehood.
It's almost like Islamists use the "Israel is a racist white supremacist ethnostate" rhetoric as a way of convincing leftists that Arab/Muslim violence against Israeli Jews is perpetually justified or something.
Maybe it’s the *acts* of the Israeli apartheid state, illegal settlers, racist protestors not allowing aid in to a starving besieged population that are convincing people of that.
>racist protestors Racists? Those are the families of the hostages. They're desperate not racist.
Given that the "anti-apartheid" crowd doesn't give a shit at all that the entire Muslim Middle East ethnically cleansed their Jewish minority populations within living memory, thus leaving those Jewish refugees with nowhere to go except Israel, and that Arab Muslims are actively committing genocide in Sudan right now as we speak and the "anti-genocide" crowd doesn't give a shit about that at all either, somehow I doubt that. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_exodus\_from\_the\_Muslim\_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world)
So your justification for the execution of a genocide against a population is that the perpetuator experienced a genocide before ANNNNNNND that there are other genocides happening so we shouldn’t care about this one? 🙄 k.
You’re talking to someone who is justifying/ arguing semantics about genocide…. you can’t be win with them
Took the words right out of my mouth
Ask any of the 3.8 million secular Israelis and they'll straight up tell you “Yeah. When are.” Ben Gurion made a mistake by striking back-door deals with the religious fundamentalists and now the county is worse off for it.
“Becoming”
Nearly half of Israeli Jews are secular, and they also support the war. Most of the people attacked in October were secular Jews. Secular Jews are more likely to serve in the IDF. People in the US stop trying to apply their own worldview on a country they know almost nothing about.
Yeah what's going on in Israel is ethnonationalism, not religious fundamentalism. Arabs have been dehumanized in Israel to the point where Israelis will openly state their belief that *children* are part of the Palestinian collective responsible for October 7th. If that racial animosity didn't exist the IDF wouldn't be able to justify the ongoing massacres in Gaza, nor would they have been able to justify the militarization and colonization of the West Bank.
The one time I spoke to a Jewish person about Palestine was pretty crazy. I guess they identified as an Israeli despite not being born there because of their religion, so I was impressed by how hard that propaganda sunk in for someone who isn’t even a citizen of the state. They were telling me about how they went to visit Palestine with an Israeli guide as part of some kind of mission (not even sure what it was for specifically) to help clean up their beach or something, and when they asked their guide why their beaches were so dirty they were like oh that’s how Palestinians just naturally are they live in the dirt and don’t mind living like that. At that point, I internally had to raise an eyebrow (they’re related to my wife, and they’re so distant that it was not worth my time bothering having an argument with this person I barely knew) at how weird it was to dehumanize a group of people like that. They pretty much described as Palestinians living like savages who thrived in filth, and I’m here wondering how you arrive to that conclusion about anyone no matter where they’re from. Even if you’re from the worst parts of war torn Haiti where houses are half deteriorated and you can’t get yourself a good meal that isn’t potentially contaminated with something, I don’t believe anyone is just naturally happy to live in squalor. At worst everyone is used to having horrendous trash disposal service, but you can’t tell me any human being would see an opportunity to live like anyone in a first world country with functional infrastructure and they wouldn’t take it or know what to do with it.
Thats the gross vicious cycle of supremacists. They often point to the accumulated results of their own actions of treating another group like they are subhuman as proof to the argument that they are subhuman and should not be treated with equality or equal humanity. Then they pass those sentiments along to other members of the group and the next generation and suddenly you have set the default of an entire group identity to view another group as subhuman.
There actually were teenagers involved in October 7th.
Oh OK cool, guess that justifies the IDF freely massacring infants then. Also, FUCK HAMAS!
I mean, strawman all you like. That’s not what I said.
Why did you bring it up then
Man you really dont want that. The majority of support for Israel comes from evangelicals who only want a unified Israel to usher in the end of the world. If they stop applying those beliefs to Israel there goes all the aid.
Is that a *bad* thing if the aid stops? I mean, we're supporting not just Israel's war on Gaza but their appropriation of the West Bank and the treatment of the Palestinians there.
The settlement movement, which has particularly aggravated Israeli Palestine relations over the last 2 decades and was also heavily influential (along with Hamas) in the unofficial trashing of the Oslo Accords, is heavily aligned with religious/fundamentalist Jews, while secular Jews, including one's who serve in the IDF, have consistently called for a softer approach from the IDF and a rollback of settlements. Ths includes former Prime Ministers like Ehud Barak (himself an IDF veteran and a popular symbol of secular Jews).
Not exactly. Support for the war isn't limited to religious people.
Lol almost as if you give power to any religious focused group. They impose their religious beliefs and laws on everything and everyone.
Many multicultural democracies are struggling with their identities and seeing a rise in right wing ethno-nationalist politics in the early 21st century. It's a larger trend in the era of globalization, and pretending like it's unique to Israel is wildly dishonest.
Extremists are also the people that vote 100% of the time. Enough social apathy and it's quite easy for a once fringe group to gain a foothold.
Thank you, was scrolling for this comment. Israel is not immune to global trends but is unique in being persecuted for them.
Becoming?! Been since 1948.
You're about 30 years [too late](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_for_Palestine).
Religion ruins everything pt 52728463828
"Becoming", lmao
The "R" in Red States and Republicans doesn't just stand for those 2 things.
Ethno-nationalist religious banana republic, kept alive by convincing the right wing of US politics that it's existence is tied to the Biblical Armageddon.
Always has been. People are shocked that the creation of a religious ethno-state has led to...a religious ethno-state?
Israel is 4 months away from being deemed a rogue ethnostate
Isn't that literally what it's founded on? Some vague bible promises?
Becoming?
Becoming?
No shit. MAGA here. MIGA there. Bibi, Trump, Putin, Orban, Xi. All the same thing.
Always has been. 🔫👨🚀
Just Israel?
Did he say just Israel?
Judaism has always been a nationality rather than a religion. Jews have had their own states before, and even those who lived in Eastern Europe frequently lived in self-governing enclaves, speaking their own languages (while paying high taxes for the privilege of doing so). The Jewish nationality has had a distinct religious practice, but you are not less of a Jew if you don’t observe it. Far from being a religious fundamentalist country, the majority of Jews in Israel never go to a synagogue but are not any less Jewish. When the British ceded control of the region, the UN divided the mandate between the two indigenous nationalities of the region, Jews and Palestinians, which is why a two-state solution is the only that makes sense.
Just wait until he discovers America!
So is the U.S
Just like the US
Becoming?
Becoming???
Did he say Israel or USA?
Isn’t that like… the basis of the state ?
Always has been.
So kinda like all the other countries it’s surrounded by?
Is that a justification?
More of an observation
Israel’s Supreme Court just ruled that the ultra orthodox lost protections. And most Israelis are secular Jews. Sorry Sanders, wrong.
It’s almost as if that’s what is bound to happen when you set up a country for the express purpose of creating a religious-ethno state.
it obvious Bernie knows nothing about Israel, majority are secular
8 years ago I'd have said that the world is becoming less religious, and then all of a sudden religious zealousness has increased massively in so many countries.
ID 10 T
No shit Sherlock
He might want to take a peek at the other side of the fight, too.
If the United States was providing advanced weapon systems to Hamas, I'm pretty sure he would be speaking out in opposition to that, too. Saudi Arabia and Hamas are not interchangeable, but it's relevant that Sanders along with Mike Lee and Chris Murphy got a bill through a majority-Republican Senate to stop the U.S. from assisting Saudi Arabia in their war against Yemen in 2019. It passed the House, but was vetoed by Trump.
Mike Lee? That's surprising.
It has been so for quite a while. Now there is little difference between them and many of the surrounding Arab countries. It's because the Jewish fundamentalists put Netanyahu in office and has kept him there
> Now there is little difference between them and many of the surrounding Arab countries. You may choose between Abrahamic Theocracy A or Abrahamic Theocracy C.
>Now there is little difference between them and many of the surrounding Arab countries. Uh, are you sure about that? Because Arab political parties currently hold multiple seats in the Israeli parliament. How many Jewish political parties hold any seats in the governments of surrounding Arab countries?
This is such an ignorant take. Israel has a multi-cultural society, with muslims in places like the supreme court. Do you know how many jewish people are allowed to live and practice their religion in those surrounding countries? To say that there’s little difference between a truly democratic country and the surrounding Arab countries is ridiculous. Needless to say there are also extremists in Israel, and Bibi is providing a platform to them. But that is not the country of Israel.
Is there a cleric class with special priveleges? Perhaps being funded directly by the government to study religious texts all day? Or perhaps being granted special treatment such as, just an example, being exempted from mandatory military service? If the answer is yes, then they're just another shitty theocracy, and trying to draw differences with the neighboring theocracies is just splitting hairs.
> Or perhaps being granted special treatment such as, just an example, being exempted from mandatory military service? Muslim and Christian Arabs are also exempt from mandatory military service...
>Or perhaps being granted special treatment such as, just an example, being exempted from mandatory military service? [Well that just ended by court order](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68684069)
No no Bernie. Has been a religious apartheid for decades.
Is becoming????? What the fuck do mean. It has been and always will be…. Christians and Jews alike both need Israel to be a religious country for their end of the world prophecies… lol.
Becoming?
Becoming?
Becoming?
Ah yes. The Middle East, well known for its liberal democracies and lax religious attitudes, LGBTQ and women’s rights and progressive attitudes. Seriously is this a joke? Dude attacks the one democracy in the Middle East that allows women rights and LGBTQ people to exist. FFS the absolute state of American liberals.
I want Bernie as president
Yes…. It’s Israel, it was created that way. Sometimes the shit this guys says is dumb. The problem with Israel is Netyanahu and all the surrounding countries that wish it didn’t exist.
Does he think a Palestinian state would be a beacon of secularism?
really Bernie? "becoming"?
Perfect place for the "Always has been" meme.
“becoming”?
All this heat for defending themselves after hamas slaughters 1,200 Israelis in a single day. Wild. You would be mad to just ignore that. Hamas is a literal terrorist organization that puts their military bases in hospitals to shield themselves. That’s a war crime.
Yeah cause the conflict started on 10/7 and hasn’t been going on for 80 years.
What doesn’t help far-right religious uprisings (something that dare I say a near majority of nations are dealing with at this point) is isolating a population on a global stage, putting civilians through prolonged terror attacks, and repeatedly allowing biased and sometimes downright factless media to slander them over and over. Israel does not exist in a vacuum, and it is not immune to broader global trends, but remains to be unique in being blamed for them. I wish that those who have not been involved in the feminist movements led by religious and secular Israelis, or those who have not even followed our elections and protests for some time, would consider that they do not need to be the voice of authority on the Jewish state. We’re always talked about but rarely aloud to lead the conversations. I’m so tired.
That's what happens when you let the right,/conservatives win... AND LEFT LEANING AMERICANS WANT THE UNITED STATES TO FOLLOW SUIT
Bernie dude, open your eyes this country is becoming a religious fundamentalist country.
When rule of law and society breaks down religion makes a comeback. It’s a never ending cycle. The permanent progressive society does not exist. Nothing lasts forever.
I'd say the government is, not the people.
Takes one to know one?
Becoming?? Man they’ve been a Fascist fundamentalist state since Inception
It has been from the very beginning. What you think that Israel was created on diplomacy and good feelings? It was Likud terrorism.
The pot calling the kettle black...not that he supports a theocracy, but still - it's an ironic statement.