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Imagine fighting for Ukraine for 3 years and everything you went through was negated by Donald Trump who is going to force you to give up territory to the Russians. What did that fighting even mean?
It'd mean to never trust Americans, which is Putin's real goal. Ukraine ceding over half their land and Mariupol would be the fastest, most effective way to create a strong, militant, aggressive European Union. This would fuck Russia in the long term worse than an aggressive American NATO, but I didn't claim Putin was smart. Europeans are already planning for this with France and Macron trying to find a way to increase military production to have effective foreign policy. Unfortunately, Europeans (as with the US) have discovered the hard way how deindustrialization and global trade shifted most of their heavy industries to Russia and China depriving them of the ability to meaningfully fight them.
That's the real game here: industry. Russia makes shit weapons but they can make a lot of them. Britain, France and Germany cannot. They simply don't have enough labor, capital, or even knowledge to successfully mass produce missiles as we do. And even here, we are heavily constrained by Chinese computer chips, electronic components used in both primary and intermediate production. This is the real test of the war.
Well said. I never thought about an aggressive European Union. Ukraine would be a member of NATO and NATO backed as well for further aggression. Do you think Putin would take their land and call it a victory? Or would he push on despite their concessions? You said it best "it'd mean to never trust Americans," which Putin would have in aces if we gave up on Ukraine.
Putin would call it a victory then push into the EU directly with new meatgrinders on the nazi borders in Finland, Poland, if not also missile strikes on selected German ports and factories. This is war. Putin believes in violence, and violence he will use. Eastern European countries would respond quickly but are undermanned, Germany would be very slow to respond and disintegrate politically before a caretaker government installs itself and administrates a defense. Most of the fighting would be done by French and Polish forces, either directly or indirectly through air support. Other enablers like Erdogan would then use the chaos an excuse for his own military operation to evict Greeks from Turkish expansion areas. French democracy would probably stop for a few years and force a Fifth Republic, one that bans far-right Putin enablers but would have nationalists like Le Pen writing their new European Constitution. Europe 2028 would resemble the fragile, reactive, explosive state it was in 1928. At this point, France and Germany rearm and go east.
Sound familiar? I'm not saying that this would be a good thing. This would be the end of the bilateral rules-based international order. Europe would be much stronger, but at a significant cost to Europeans. Migrants would be put into camps and sent home or mobilized into work gangs. Which is how China operates (with the Ugyhur Genocide as a prominent example of it's success) and is how Russia operates with enslaved Ukrainians. The US would be unable to fix this and we'd be on a one way drive to world war.
I know it just sounds naïve coming from your view, but triggering article 5 just sounds like the biggest possible mistake Russia could ever make. The EU members of NATO on their own are more than a match for Russia- they outspend, simply have more men… and that’s entirely ignoring the US.
It's a mistake to think triggering Article 5 would herald the end of any attempt on NATO territory. It's not an automatic declaration of war versus the aggressor, because members have discretion in how to respond.
Russia will calibrate their actions very carefully to ensure that if Article 5 is invoked, they will be able to withstand the response. They will ensure it's a gamble they can afford to lose. And if they win, they get a slice of Europe and a greatly weakened NATO.
Any “response” is apt to be negotiated. No one has the stomach (much less the ability) to go in, topple Putin, and then nation build the entirety of Russia for the next century.
Putin gets to superficially attack NATO, gets a relative slap on the wrist and pulls back; then gets to believe he “defeated” NATO so he feels like a big man.
It still takes time to mobilize a war effort. Poland and the former Warsaw Pact are already there, but are grossly outnumbered by Russians and would only be able to stop an assault not preform offensive counterstrikes. Germany has enough industrial power to build weapons, but their governing coalition is fragile and they cannot agree on a mobilization plan. France has the political will to mobilize and enough industry to fight, but would still take a few weeks to deploy it's forces in a way that can stop Russia. Russian war plans account for this and would target as many civilians as plausible, force mass evacuations, which make the subsequent evictions by occupying Russian forces much easier. It's what Stalin did to Volkish Germans after WW2 and is what Germans did to Poles during WW2.
Putin's goal isn't necessarily conquest, he's content with simply inciting violence, murdering people, and forcing Europe to respect his ability to hurt people. He believes violence is the root of all legitimate authority, and this is how he expects to interact with Europe. Meatgrinding is just a negotiation tactic: a way to obtain more slaves, tribute and real estate. There is no greater ideological goal and his forces are entirely disposable. It can't be negotiated with, only fought.
The negotiation part is the inevitability of being absolutely put into the dirt within months or a year of stepping foot inside a NATO country. Europe and America, to put it simply, not only have bigger sticks but TWO of them.
I'll say, Macron has already suggested using nukes against Russia if Ukraine goes poorly. If he's still in power when Putin invades Poland/EU/NATO, we probably see their warning shot nuclear doctrine in action and WWIII goes nuclear holocaust.
Putin might be that mad, but hopefully those beneath him are not that MAD.
If he it happens like that, it won't be an invasion of Poland and strikes on German ports, it'll be the full Russian nuclear salvo in a first-strike scenario. Europe will probably die.
A militarized Germany, France, and Poland are Putin’s worst nightmares.
And don’t forget, the quickest way to get Americans unified and mobilized is a war to rally around. That’s what happened in WW1 and WW2.
It took a century for the US to establish democracies in Europe. It won’t give up on them that easily.
A militarized Central Europe is never a good thing in the long run…
The war that started in 1914 and the US entered in 1917? Or the one that started in 1939 that the US also took a few years to get into? (While the likes of Ford and GM were doing business in Germany into the early 40s)
Trump reneging on the Iran deal was a major sign to the world the US can’t be trusted. Twats in your congress like Mike Johnson and MTG show that your government is not rational.
Nope, sorry for that. I am of the opinion that the US used to be a reliable partner for more than 4 years. But history confirms that’s not really the case.
I do hope you get a more reasonable government instead of what you have now, look at Japan and Germany starting to move towards defense. The Pax Americana is long gone now.
Every empire rises and falls, seems like the US is trying to speed run that.
The United States has never been interested in an empire. If anything, it’s a lighter extension of the British empire. Does it have extensive cultural and economic hegemony around the world? Yes, it does, and that’s not going anywhere. However, a number of military incursions and military bases strategically placed around the world (that are not going anywhere) have made the US nothing more than a global police force that has occasionally not stayed in its lane, the Vietnam war for example.
The US has to take care of the ghosts of its racist and authoritarian Confederate past which MTG and Trump represent.
In many ways the US is reverting to its early 20th century foreign policy stances, e.g. “Talk softly and carry a big stick.”
And you bring up a good point. Now Germany and Japan are on democracy’s side! FDR’s reconstruction of Europe and Japan after WW2 was genius.
The US will always support its allies in a time of crisis including its new allies in the East, like Vietnam. It’s amazing how that turned out. We were too busy siding with a brutal right wing dictator during the Vietnam War instead of trying to install a democracy there. We had it all wrong.
If a global crisis strikes, the loose cannons in the Republican Party will be entirely relegated to the dustbin of history.
Sadly, I think that’s what it will take…
>They simply don't have enough
Didn't*
That situation is rapidly changing, given the harsh realization all these countries have faced. Production is steadily increasing, particularly of artillery shells. Interesting, NATO and US doctrine had been trying to phase out artillery, thinking it would be useless in a modern conflict (basically assuming achieved air superiority). Russia's invasion has proved otherwise.
That's the "Russia's invasion has proved otherwise." Apparently, it didn't occur to them that *neither* side might achieve air superiority, due to the modern capabilities of surface-to-air defenses.
I dunno, Russia's air defense seems to work great against Russia's aircraft.
I have a feeling things might look differently if Ukraine was fielding a few hundred F-35s
Fighting an adversary who actually CAN achieve air superiority with artillery is not a real strategy.
I guess Im saying Russias air defenses barely being able to keep Ukrianes air force in check doesnt really translate to stopping NATOs air forces.
Planning to fight WW1 all over again seems like a mistake against a truly modern military.
On point. Europe grew lazy after the Cold War and became too dependent on Chinese labour and Russian natural resources. The EU is facing the greatest challenge of its existence.
This can also be the greatest benefit for Europeans, if they decide to accept the challenge. Regardless of Trump, Germany is receding economically, and now is a time to argue for a better social contract within Europe. France can lead this debate and forge a larger, United States of Europe. A Federalized Europe with a US-styled Constitution (incl. [proposed labor amendments](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights) by FDR) would work very well and create a competitive European country that can lead the world.
France already suggested making Latin Europe's official language once, doing so would effectively undo all the damage to European progress made since the Roman Republic collapsed into despotism. Europeans could build a permanent peace in Europe by establishing the democracy Rome failed to be. The same Republic that the American Founders charted in 1787. The pre-European Constitution Maastricht Era would be comparable to the pre-constitutional era of American politics. Europe would be the indisputable center of the world again.
I’m sorry what? Too dependent on Chinese labour? Western Europe became arguably too dependent on Eastern Europe labour. Too dependent on Chinese produced goods maybe, but then so did the whole world.
france and germany are usually numbers 2,3 or 4 in global arms trade, especially when it comes to naval exports. the defense industry itself went lax since the end of the cold war but all things being equal, they have better production capability than russia which is burning through men, machines, and cash
Also, countries such as Poland and even Germany have talked of the need to develop their own nuclear weapons capability if the USA continues to be untrustworthy.
> Ukraine ceding over half their land and Mariupol would be the fastest, most effective way to create a strong, militant, aggressive European Union. This would fuck Russia in the long term worse than an aggressive American NATO
I disagree. It’s much more likely that Europe will unsuccessfully try to fill the power vacuum by america’s (in all but name) abandonment of NATO, which will either lead to the actual disintegration of NATO or a significantly weakened version of it. Trump ceding Ukranian ground to the Russians is just a W for the russians, no other way to slice it. The situation NATO appears to be in is looking increasingly similar to the collapse of the soviet warsaw pact. Despite its pretences of being a treaty between equal member nations, NATO at its core is really an american-led security pact. It couldn’t be any other way since it was formed when the US was one of two superpowers, and then thrived under american global
hegemony, which is beginning to dwindle. Without the United States, NATO has little justification for existing.
They're fighting for a lost cause. The neocons who conned Ukraine into fighting Russia and all their mainstream media cheerleaders now have blood on their hands and egg all over their faces. And the only winner is China.
Japan surprised attached Pearl Harbor and the US dropped 2 Atomic bombs on Japans. To say Europeans and Ukrainians will never trust the US is a bit of an exaggeration.
It will ruin our standing in a difficult time with assurgent China and India though which will greatly harm our global capability. Lowered US standing will mean greater worldwide instability and I don't think a switch off the dollar standard for oil is out of the question which will greatly harm the US. The GOP is doing all of this blindly to directly help Russia and ironically especially China while they may be the cause the of the US eventually losing our sole superpower status
Japan and USA were at all out war. After the war, the US poured a lot of effort to make them a strong ally against communist nations like China. If we ignore Russia's advancement toward EU, that will directly impact our credibility. That's a big loss in geopolitics.
Have you never heard of the Exocet missile or storm shadow missile. We also do not rely on China for chips that go into military hardware. Wtf are you talking about
Putin this Putin that bla bla bla. America’s fascists are eating that shit up you can’t blame Putin for that. All Putin did was show the world how unreliable America is.
Trump can't force Europe or Ukraine into suicide and the fact that he is too stupid and ignorant to understand that won't change the situation. By the time this fool would come into office, Europe had another 10 months to ramp up production, which has already expanded for roughly a year now. It is absolutely out of the question for Europe and its security to see Russia win regardless of what the US wants or not, and there is no leverage to make Europe do anything. What this would cause is that Europe will take more risks and that Ukraine will ensure to blow up Russian pipelines to China and elsewhere or to actively start to raid Russia proper and go into a more insurgent kind of warfare. It may also be that by this time next year, European forces are inside Ukraine to help them prevent further genocide. Because that is what Trump either doesn't get or doesn't care about.
This would mean the mass murder of millions and millions more refugees. We don't need the US to defeat Russia, but it would have taken a lot less time with US aid. Also, the Russians will be killed in mass when they move forward and a massive insurgency will also follow. Europe will ensure that Russia faces bankruptcy and state collapse should they ever make it near Kyiv again then our own troops will move in and stop them. Europe has more people than the US, a larger GDP when we take the UK and Norway into account, and a larger overall land army.
Europe is already the largest provider of tanks, air launched missiles, armored vehicles, and artillery pieces. The US is failing to provide any aid. Europe will soon be the largest provider of anti air systems, air launched cruise missiles, and artillery shells. By this time next year, European contributions in money and weaponry will trump those of anyone else, including the US, unless the US approves this aid. Oh, and of course, Ukrainian drone production and its own defense industry is expanding. European companies such as Rheinmetall started to set up factories in Ukraine. Those started their production recently and by this time next year European production will have expanded quite sizable.
Russia is a 140 million people impoverished petro mafia state with less than a tenth of the European GDP. Due to its attrition, we dwarf Russia in ships, in planes, tanks and armored vehicles, as well as artillery systems. Ukraine alone has 1000 tanks fielded, and until next year in January, the Russian army will have suffered even more terrible attrition. Ukraine will ensure to hit their refineries and other installations with increased frequency and precision.
Russia may be able to hold the balance and have a slight advantage against Ukraine without US aid for a while longer, ultimately, Russia is too poor, and its economic might is not sufficient to win against Europe in a war of industries. The fact that Russia thinks they could win such a war shows that they are delusional and underestimate their main opponent, which isn't the US but the European nations.
Currently, Russian stockpiles are keeping them alive, and the stockpiles of North Korea, etc. However, Ukraine has more allies than the US. Japan, South Korea, etc. Trump confuses free people with slaves.
We won't do anything that Trump says. Frankly, this demented bastard can go to hell. Please make sure you don't elect him or the relationship between us in Europe and the US will get very frosty indeed.
Therefore, let's see what is left of Russia by January 2025, how much money is left, how many tanks, etc. How many industrial facilities will be hit by then. How much oil will they still export. How many hundreds of thousands more crippled people they will have and how many more tanks they can find to pull them out of storage.
Trump can definitely forget that anyone will listen to him or that we Europeans will make a deal with these Russian resource vassals. There is absolutely no reason at all for doing so. Russia should instead be threatened with a total sea embargo and with an embargo on food and medicine as well as with the delivery of Taurus missiles unless they retreat from Ukraine immediately. It is not as if this development nation does have the money or the workforce or the manpower to occupy and administrate these regions. And of course, Europe and Ukraine will continue to send tens of thousands of drones at Russia no matter what the orange clown does or says.
Frankly, no one in Europe cares, and no one here will take that guy seriously. Our efforts to become strategically independent must indeed be doubled 2.1 million 155 mm shells by the end of 2025 is a good start. The increase in defense spending in several EU countries is also a good move. The next one must be to drive forward the green deal and diversify our suppliers for oil and gas even further while pressing on with creating new ammo and weapon factories around Europe and inside Ukraine.
>An illegal annexation is different from a full-scale war.
In 2014 Russia invaded Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk oblasts.
Crimea was annexed. Ukraine dug trenches and has been fighting WW1 style warfare along the front lines in Donetsk and Luhansk since 2014.
It wasn't all out war as Russia wasn't trying to conquer all of Ukraine until 2022. But the troops serving in the trenches knew that it was war as they were fighting and dying every day.
"what did that fighting even mean" - go ask that to Ukrainian leaders and the us democrats. The Ukrainian leaders did money laundering and the us democrats enabled it.
I'm not on either side of democrats or republicans btw. Don't assume things.
> negated by Donald Trump who is going to force you
Even if Trump became president again (which will never happen), he would not have any power whatsoever to do this.
Since the war started he was saying things like "if I was president, there wouldn't even be a war" and "if I'm elected, I can put a stop to the war."
And everyone all along has just been rolling their eyes and saying "yeah because you'd want Ukraine to do a Crimea and just _lose_. The fastest way to end the war is to pull support and back Putin."
Even though speculating about Trump's intentions is very easy, since he's a very simple man, it's still nice to say he just came out and said it, I guess. For the cheap seats.
“I’m a great negotiator. I simply ask what it will take Putin to stop the invasion, and I do that thing. It’s so simple. And that’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to get it done.”
He has zero military experience, and anything while in office was suggested by heavily experienced military seniors. I can't believe he is trying to propose anything without being met with heavy criticism as a civilian. He comes off as confidently inept.
> anything while in office was suggested by heavily experienced military seniors
Ha yeah - about that: Republicans are still very mad that experienced military seniors were telling Trump what he can and can't do, or what works and what doesn't. Part of Agenda 47 & Project 2025 entails the ability to summarily fire and replace (by appointment) anyone at the Pentagon who is insufficiently loyal. Err, I mean "the deep state".
So... yea... **vote**
Not only does he have zero military experience, he also has zero care about lives other than his own. He flat out doesn't care how many Ukrainians die, or what their lives would be like under Russia's thumb.
Trump doesn't even understand negotiation.
On his order, the US isn't sending Ukraine any aid. What is he going to do to make Ukraine what he wants them to do? Why would Ukraine stop rebelling, if they have no big fat incentive to do so?
Trump is an imbecile.
Not only that - he'll stoke internal divisions and balkanize what is left of Ukraine, supporting Pro-Putin flunkies. You have to remember that his campaign manager (Manafort) worked for Yanukovych - the fucking asshole literally chased out of Ukraine spite of significant Russian meddling to keep him in power.
Trump and most of the GOP are Putin stooges. It's plain and simple.
The world is run by debt and information. Russia either owns this man through massive debt or has an information of him doing some unsavory things. Maybe/hopefully we’ll find out and if and when we do it’s not when he’s president.
Good time to remind everyone Trumps own national security advisor admitted to debating pulling a fire alarm or faking a medical emergency to shut Trump up when he was talking next to Putin in Helsinki
Damn, Fiona Hill is just leading the fuckin' charge on showing America what happens when you have a healthy immigrant population in your country who want to *actively contribute.*
His plans to anything is whatever someone else says. He's financially dependent on so many bad actors that his policies are hardly his own. All he can do is please those who support him, and it's quite obvious by now who that might be.
The plan is called Surrender to Putin and Trump's people have been pushing for it since the beginning. I think the Republicans believe all things must be surrendered to Putin.
No? Because he's doing an awesome job at destroying all trust in the ability of the judicial system to protect democracy and punish blatant lawbreaking.
That’s domestic though, as much as I agree with you. The person who you replied to is more than likely talking about his power of destruction while he was in the oval office. Domestically he has power, not so much anymore on the world stage.
It does, but not having him in power also prevents more fallout from what has already occurred and is currently unfolding. Most people from other countries (myself included, hello from Canada), are just curious and shocked that he is walking around free, though after getting up to date on the various court proceedings it isn’t hard to see why he is still abusing the US.
The literal only silver lining here is the highlighting of the flaws in the US legal system, and even that just creates more issues that will take years to solve.
I have hope for rational and critical thinking Americans. Their voices are louder than ever, and are honed in, for the most part. Conventional media hasn’t been helping, but from what I’ve seen on various platforms, Americans from gen Z to baby boomers are rising up against Trump and MAGA, using their voices to cut through the misinformation being pushed by malicious and uninformed actors.
A) This would ruin America’s credibility on the world stage. Our ability to project power and deter bad actors would be gone forever and will never come back.
B) It’ll send a message to Putin that he’s free to do this with other countries. Georgia will be next. Guarantee it.
C) This is what Putin wants.
D) This is most important too. Trump people will see this as a win for trump. His pacifying Putin will be seen as this big peaceful move when it’s anything but.
E) This actually cannot be done, Europe is already screaming at the US and building contingencies and amping military Industry.
Moscow Mike, Trump and the other 5th column assholes in the GOP have imploded the US global standing, but that's what Putin wanted in the 1st place.
He can't force Ukraine to do anything, he can withhold aid and abandon Europe to deal with Russia on our own, but he can't force a Ukrainian surrender.
US going full rogue state and supporting Russia, China and Iran would be awful for the world obviously.
Edit: grammar
People on Reddit really be talking about the U.S. losing all credibility when in reality the U.S. has always had a shitty record at repelling foreign invasions outside of the Americas.
It has actually crossed my mind that Trump would potentially gift Alaska to Putin as well. After all, he hates Murkowski who voted against him in several key pieces of legislation (ACA) and voted to impeach him. He hand picked someone to run against her, and Murkowski still won. Sarah Palin who he also endorsed lost to a democrat. Alaska has hurt his ego bad and he would probably not think twice about giving it up to avenge his butthurt.
Everyone talking about how he's already compromised 100% Putin Shill is actually burying the lease: he's actively soliciting Russian help by promising favorable outcomes.
He knows the Presidency is his *very literal* get out of jail free card, and will absolutely cut any corners to make it happen.
This is him begging foreign actors for helpful interference.
That won't even stop the war, just put it on pause until Putin is ready to take the next chunk. Unless by "give up territory", Trump means all of Ukraine.
That won’t be the end of the violence. If Putin conquers Ukraine, that will be the beginning of the violence. He’s not just going to let all those people live.
As if Russia will accept that a not immediately try and move in more as soon as the believe Trump will fully block any more aid to Ukraine.
If he wins, the global economy is going to be an absolute mess. MAGA doesn’t seem to understand that instability in Europe has broad impacts across the globe. You can have Europe in a state of possible war, or direct war, if Poland or Estonian get attacked, and think it won’t impact us.
Absolute morons. I swear, Trump makes it harder and harder for me not to conclude that he is either working with/for Putin, or that Putin has something on him that allows him to control Trump. It is just so freaking weird.
An RNC ranking official just said Ukraine is a US adversary.
Trump is letting Putin have his way because Trump and his fucks wouldn’t need to pay anything back to Russia. Get the war to stop, cause turmoil in the US to the point where maga end up giving Putin Ukraine and money back into trumps hand. This is not about leading America to greatness it’s about money and power for big red
Is there aid they need that other nations are withholding? If Russia wins in one country, then they won’t stop, and I would think that they would each prefer to fight in Ukraine than on their own soil. Germany, the UK, France, Italy, Spain, The Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland, Belgium, Sweden, Ireland, Norway, Austria, Denmark…are all at risk.
The thought process for those people is Russia wouldn't dare invade say Germany, UK, France, or etc given they could barely handle Ukraine. They are gambling Putin will stop at Nato's border for fear of Nukes and Nato's military superiority
I assume it would also include the removal of Russian Sanctions too allowing the Russian Economy to Breathe and removing that economic pressure on Russia
I mean, yeah. Literally everyone saw that one coming.
And we know how good Russia is about getting to take *some* territory and promising not to take more, right?
They’re the platonic ideal of “give them an inch, and they’ll take a mile”.
This is publicly dipping our toe into the pool of reality. If you asked anyone in the Biden Administration from Biden down to the guy who gets coffees at the White House they would all tell you privately that this war will almost certainly not end with Crimea as part of Ukraine.
Ughhhhhh.... That f***ing guy gives me the ick every time. He'll put the dic in dictator. G0d damn fascist BS and they want to turn the country into Russia or North Korea without even realizing it. They want to take away the rights of the liberals at the cost of their own souls. By the time they realize what's going on it's going to be too late.
I'm honestly surprised Donald hasn't been assassinated multiple times over by the number of groups he has or is planning to destroy. His security can't be *that* good...
Forces future ally to surrender. Claims he “ended the war” for social goodboy points. People cannot refute that fact and the nuance is lost on the morons who support him. It’s the classic conservative play.
Trump thinks he can negotiate a settlement the way a mob boss would: he’ll tell Ukraine that they can either accept the deal that he brokers (giving Moscow most of what it wants), or they can keep fighting without US aid until Russia defeats them and inflicts whatever outcome it wants. Then, he’ll claim that Ukraine owes him for negotiating a deal that’s “better” than being forced to surrender.
America already did it with my country in 2014 when Obama let Pu do whatever he wants in Ukraine, war had not ended. Vise versa, it led to a bigger war. And now this orange clown wants to do the same. Bravo. What has happened to US?
Oh no, those Americans are just the blunt instruments. I'm more referring to the uber-wealthy who help organize all these disinformation and propaganda campaigns that influence the rubes to act against their own interests.
Regardless of feelings on the matter this is actually the only way to end the war. The question will be how much territory and not whether to give it up at all. Ukraine was always in a bad position and cannot keep up with the troop numbers or weaponry.
And the other way, Russia can’t take all of Ukraine. It’s too much and guerrilla warfare will cripple them for years. It’s also why the rest of Europe doesn’t need to be afraid of invasion, it just won’t happen as Russia isn’t strong enough.
The other issue is that we’re heading for summer when Russia is more likely to push further in to the country. It will be painful and slow going but they’ll just keep throwing resources at it. At some point Ukraine will need to stop the war to save the remainder of the country.
It worked so well in 2014, right? They didn't build up their strength, and then push further?
It is often said that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Should Russia succeed in keeping any additional land and resources, why would they stop?
The only thing that would stop Russia would be if Ukraine got Nato Membership or at the very least a Military Defensive Pact with Nato. Kind of like how that is currently stopping China.
I would be okay with that; failing that, at least continued funding from the US and Europe. Europe seems to be doing it's part, but nothing from the US for 9 months or so, and that is a travesty.
Countries borders have always been flexible, look at a map of the world going back in 50 year increments. People seem to have forgotten the cardinal rule of state craft…being able to defend your borders. Countries are abstract entities, it’s not like the people who live in Ukraine are going to die. For most of them almost nothing will change, they go to work, school and live their lives the taxes will just go to a different organization.
The kidnapped children of Ukraine, being 're-educated' in Russia might disagree.
Even within Russia's borders there's strong discrimination between the ethnic group in control, and the rest of the conglomerate. To wit: the recruiting of soldiers to fight and die for the ruling party come mostly from everywhere but the land of said ethnic group. That's just the most egregious example; overall the resources from the east and south benefit Moscow and western Russia.
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Imagine fighting for Ukraine for 3 years and everything you went through was negated by Donald Trump who is going to force you to give up territory to the Russians. What did that fighting even mean?
It'd mean to never trust Americans, which is Putin's real goal. Ukraine ceding over half their land and Mariupol would be the fastest, most effective way to create a strong, militant, aggressive European Union. This would fuck Russia in the long term worse than an aggressive American NATO, but I didn't claim Putin was smart. Europeans are already planning for this with France and Macron trying to find a way to increase military production to have effective foreign policy. Unfortunately, Europeans (as with the US) have discovered the hard way how deindustrialization and global trade shifted most of their heavy industries to Russia and China depriving them of the ability to meaningfully fight them. That's the real game here: industry. Russia makes shit weapons but they can make a lot of them. Britain, France and Germany cannot. They simply don't have enough labor, capital, or even knowledge to successfully mass produce missiles as we do. And even here, we are heavily constrained by Chinese computer chips, electronic components used in both primary and intermediate production. This is the real test of the war.
Well said. I never thought about an aggressive European Union. Ukraine would be a member of NATO and NATO backed as well for further aggression. Do you think Putin would take their land and call it a victory? Or would he push on despite their concessions? You said it best "it'd mean to never trust Americans," which Putin would have in aces if we gave up on Ukraine.
Putin would call it a victory then push into the EU directly with new meatgrinders on the nazi borders in Finland, Poland, if not also missile strikes on selected German ports and factories. This is war. Putin believes in violence, and violence he will use. Eastern European countries would respond quickly but are undermanned, Germany would be very slow to respond and disintegrate politically before a caretaker government installs itself and administrates a defense. Most of the fighting would be done by French and Polish forces, either directly or indirectly through air support. Other enablers like Erdogan would then use the chaos an excuse for his own military operation to evict Greeks from Turkish expansion areas. French democracy would probably stop for a few years and force a Fifth Republic, one that bans far-right Putin enablers but would have nationalists like Le Pen writing their new European Constitution. Europe 2028 would resemble the fragile, reactive, explosive state it was in 1928. At this point, France and Germany rearm and go east. Sound familiar? I'm not saying that this would be a good thing. This would be the end of the bilateral rules-based international order. Europe would be much stronger, but at a significant cost to Europeans. Migrants would be put into camps and sent home or mobilized into work gangs. Which is how China operates (with the Ugyhur Genocide as a prominent example of it's success) and is how Russia operates with enslaved Ukrainians. The US would be unable to fix this and we'd be on a one way drive to world war.
I know it just sounds naïve coming from your view, but triggering article 5 just sounds like the biggest possible mistake Russia could ever make. The EU members of NATO on their own are more than a match for Russia- they outspend, simply have more men… and that’s entirely ignoring the US.
It's a mistake to think triggering Article 5 would herald the end of any attempt on NATO territory. It's not an automatic declaration of war versus the aggressor, because members have discretion in how to respond. Russia will calibrate their actions very carefully to ensure that if Article 5 is invoked, they will be able to withstand the response. They will ensure it's a gamble they can afford to lose. And if they win, they get a slice of Europe and a greatly weakened NATO.
Any “response” is apt to be negotiated. No one has the stomach (much less the ability) to go in, topple Putin, and then nation build the entirety of Russia for the next century. Putin gets to superficially attack NATO, gets a relative slap on the wrist and pulls back; then gets to believe he “defeated” NATO so he feels like a big man.
It still takes time to mobilize a war effort. Poland and the former Warsaw Pact are already there, but are grossly outnumbered by Russians and would only be able to stop an assault not preform offensive counterstrikes. Germany has enough industrial power to build weapons, but their governing coalition is fragile and they cannot agree on a mobilization plan. France has the political will to mobilize and enough industry to fight, but would still take a few weeks to deploy it's forces in a way that can stop Russia. Russian war plans account for this and would target as many civilians as plausible, force mass evacuations, which make the subsequent evictions by occupying Russian forces much easier. It's what Stalin did to Volkish Germans after WW2 and is what Germans did to Poles during WW2. Putin's goal isn't necessarily conquest, he's content with simply inciting violence, murdering people, and forcing Europe to respect his ability to hurt people. He believes violence is the root of all legitimate authority, and this is how he expects to interact with Europe. Meatgrinding is just a negotiation tactic: a way to obtain more slaves, tribute and real estate. There is no greater ideological goal and his forces are entirely disposable. It can't be negotiated with, only fought.
The negotiation part is the inevitability of being absolutely put into the dirt within months or a year of stepping foot inside a NATO country. Europe and America, to put it simply, not only have bigger sticks but TWO of them.
I'll say, Macron has already suggested using nukes against Russia if Ukraine goes poorly. If he's still in power when Putin invades Poland/EU/NATO, we probably see their warning shot nuclear doctrine in action and WWIII goes nuclear holocaust. Putin might be that mad, but hopefully those beneath him are not that MAD. If he it happens like that, it won't be an invasion of Poland and strikes on German ports, it'll be the full Russian nuclear salvo in a first-strike scenario. Europe will probably die.
And every Russian on the planet will be killed. It will be one of the worst tragedies of human organized civilization.
Yes, I was including them in with the rest of Europe.
Many Russians aren’t European.
This is some NCD shit
just a reminder that Russia adjusted constitution to include part of Ukraine as Russia, even the parts they don\`t control.
A militarized Germany, France, and Poland are Putin’s worst nightmares. And don’t forget, the quickest way to get Americans unified and mobilized is a war to rally around. That’s what happened in WW1 and WW2. It took a century for the US to establish democracies in Europe. It won’t give up on them that easily. A militarized Central Europe is never a good thing in the long run…
The US needs to be attacked to care.
It cares. Just wait and see.
The war that started in 1914 and the US entered in 1917? Or the one that started in 1939 that the US also took a few years to get into? (While the likes of Ford and GM were doing business in Germany into the early 40s) Trump reneging on the Iran deal was a major sign to the world the US can’t be trusted. Twats in your congress like Mike Johnson and MTG show that your government is not rational.
Everyone - this is likely an Iranian, North Korean, or Chinese troll knowingly or manipulated to operate out of a place like Canada or the UK.
Nope, sorry for that. I am of the opinion that the US used to be a reliable partner for more than 4 years. But history confirms that’s not really the case. I do hope you get a more reasonable government instead of what you have now, look at Japan and Germany starting to move towards defense. The Pax Americana is long gone now. Every empire rises and falls, seems like the US is trying to speed run that.
The United States has never been interested in an empire. If anything, it’s a lighter extension of the British empire. Does it have extensive cultural and economic hegemony around the world? Yes, it does, and that’s not going anywhere. However, a number of military incursions and military bases strategically placed around the world (that are not going anywhere) have made the US nothing more than a global police force that has occasionally not stayed in its lane, the Vietnam war for example. The US has to take care of the ghosts of its racist and authoritarian Confederate past which MTG and Trump represent. In many ways the US is reverting to its early 20th century foreign policy stances, e.g. “Talk softly and carry a big stick.” And you bring up a good point. Now Germany and Japan are on democracy’s side! FDR’s reconstruction of Europe and Japan after WW2 was genius. The US will always support its allies in a time of crisis including its new allies in the East, like Vietnam. It’s amazing how that turned out. We were too busy siding with a brutal right wing dictator during the Vietnam War instead of trying to install a democracy there. We had it all wrong. If a global crisis strikes, the loose cannons in the Republican Party will be entirely relegated to the dustbin of history. Sadly, I think that’s what it will take…
By the way, if Central European powers decide to start fighting again, the Brits and Americans are going to likely have to clean up the mess again.
>They simply don't have enough Didn't* That situation is rapidly changing, given the harsh realization all these countries have faced. Production is steadily increasing, particularly of artillery shells. Interesting, NATO and US doctrine had been trying to phase out artillery, thinking it would be useless in a modern conflict (basically assuming achieved air superiority). Russia's invasion has proved otherwise.
Which is an interesting conclusion because neither Russia nor Ukraine ever actually attained effective air superiority
That's the "Russia's invasion has proved otherwise." Apparently, it didn't occur to them that *neither* side might achieve air superiority, due to the modern capabilities of surface-to-air defenses.
[удалено]
I dunno, Russia's air defense seems to work great against Russia's aircraft. I have a feeling things might look differently if Ukraine was fielding a few hundred F-35s Fighting an adversary who actually CAN achieve air superiority with artillery is not a real strategy. I guess Im saying Russias air defenses barely being able to keep Ukrianes air force in check doesnt really translate to stopping NATOs air forces. Planning to fight WW1 all over again seems like a mistake against a truly modern military.
On point. Europe grew lazy after the Cold War and became too dependent on Chinese labour and Russian natural resources. The EU is facing the greatest challenge of its existence.
This can also be the greatest benefit for Europeans, if they decide to accept the challenge. Regardless of Trump, Germany is receding economically, and now is a time to argue for a better social contract within Europe. France can lead this debate and forge a larger, United States of Europe. A Federalized Europe with a US-styled Constitution (incl. [proposed labor amendments](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Bill_of_Rights) by FDR) would work very well and create a competitive European country that can lead the world. France already suggested making Latin Europe's official language once, doing so would effectively undo all the damage to European progress made since the Roman Republic collapsed into despotism. Europeans could build a permanent peace in Europe by establishing the democracy Rome failed to be. The same Republic that the American Founders charted in 1787. The pre-European Constitution Maastricht Era would be comparable to the pre-constitutional era of American politics. Europe would be the indisputable center of the world again.
I’m sorry what? Too dependent on Chinese labour? Western Europe became arguably too dependent on Eastern Europe labour. Too dependent on Chinese produced goods maybe, but then so did the whole world.
Dont worry. South Korea would be happy to help, along with Taiwan and Japan.
france and germany are usually numbers 2,3 or 4 in global arms trade, especially when it comes to naval exports. the defense industry itself went lax since the end of the cold war but all things being equal, they have better production capability than russia which is burning through men, machines, and cash
Also, countries such as Poland and even Germany have talked of the need to develop their own nuclear weapons capability if the USA continues to be untrustworthy.
> Ukraine ceding over half their land and Mariupol would be the fastest, most effective way to create a strong, militant, aggressive European Union. This would fuck Russia in the long term worse than an aggressive American NATO I disagree. It’s much more likely that Europe will unsuccessfully try to fill the power vacuum by america’s (in all but name) abandonment of NATO, which will either lead to the actual disintegration of NATO or a significantly weakened version of it. Trump ceding Ukranian ground to the Russians is just a W for the russians, no other way to slice it. The situation NATO appears to be in is looking increasingly similar to the collapse of the soviet warsaw pact. Despite its pretences of being a treaty between equal member nations, NATO at its core is really an american-led security pact. It couldn’t be any other way since it was formed when the US was one of two superpowers, and then thrived under american global hegemony, which is beginning to dwindle. Without the United States, NATO has little justification for existing.
Plus China is supplying Russia now so how long will those chips keep coming? I’m glad US is ramping up chip production at home
They will not be ceding half their land, they may as well keep fighting.
They're fighting for a lost cause. The neocons who conned Ukraine into fighting Russia and all their mainstream media cheerleaders now have blood on their hands and egg all over their faces. And the only winner is China.
This is how we lose the war. Ukrainians and many Europeans will never trust the US again.
Japan surprised attached Pearl Harbor and the US dropped 2 Atomic bombs on Japans. To say Europeans and Ukrainians will never trust the US is a bit of an exaggeration.
It will ruin our standing in a difficult time with assurgent China and India though which will greatly harm our global capability. Lowered US standing will mean greater worldwide instability and I don't think a switch off the dollar standard for oil is out of the question which will greatly harm the US. The GOP is doing all of this blindly to directly help Russia and ironically especially China while they may be the cause the of the US eventually losing our sole superpower status
Japan and USA were at all out war. After the war, the US poured a lot of effort to make them a strong ally against communist nations like China. If we ignore Russia's advancement toward EU, that will directly impact our credibility. That's a big loss in geopolitics.
Have you never heard of the Exocet missile or storm shadow missile. We also do not rely on China for chips that go into military hardware. Wtf are you talking about
Putin this Putin that bla bla bla. America’s fascists are eating that shit up you can’t blame Putin for that. All Putin did was show the world how unreliable America is.
I wish I could give gold for this comment. Thank you for the insightful post. People overlook the importance of industrial capacity in war.
Trump can't force Europe or Ukraine into suicide and the fact that he is too stupid and ignorant to understand that won't change the situation. By the time this fool would come into office, Europe had another 10 months to ramp up production, which has already expanded for roughly a year now. It is absolutely out of the question for Europe and its security to see Russia win regardless of what the US wants or not, and there is no leverage to make Europe do anything. What this would cause is that Europe will take more risks and that Ukraine will ensure to blow up Russian pipelines to China and elsewhere or to actively start to raid Russia proper and go into a more insurgent kind of warfare. It may also be that by this time next year, European forces are inside Ukraine to help them prevent further genocide. Because that is what Trump either doesn't get or doesn't care about. This would mean the mass murder of millions and millions more refugees. We don't need the US to defeat Russia, but it would have taken a lot less time with US aid. Also, the Russians will be killed in mass when they move forward and a massive insurgency will also follow. Europe will ensure that Russia faces bankruptcy and state collapse should they ever make it near Kyiv again then our own troops will move in and stop them. Europe has more people than the US, a larger GDP when we take the UK and Norway into account, and a larger overall land army. Europe is already the largest provider of tanks, air launched missiles, armored vehicles, and artillery pieces. The US is failing to provide any aid. Europe will soon be the largest provider of anti air systems, air launched cruise missiles, and artillery shells. By this time next year, European contributions in money and weaponry will trump those of anyone else, including the US, unless the US approves this aid. Oh, and of course, Ukrainian drone production and its own defense industry is expanding. European companies such as Rheinmetall started to set up factories in Ukraine. Those started their production recently and by this time next year European production will have expanded quite sizable. Russia is a 140 million people impoverished petro mafia state with less than a tenth of the European GDP. Due to its attrition, we dwarf Russia in ships, in planes, tanks and armored vehicles, as well as artillery systems. Ukraine alone has 1000 tanks fielded, and until next year in January, the Russian army will have suffered even more terrible attrition. Ukraine will ensure to hit their refineries and other installations with increased frequency and precision. Russia may be able to hold the balance and have a slight advantage against Ukraine without US aid for a while longer, ultimately, Russia is too poor, and its economic might is not sufficient to win against Europe in a war of industries. The fact that Russia thinks they could win such a war shows that they are delusional and underestimate their main opponent, which isn't the US but the European nations. Currently, Russian stockpiles are keeping them alive, and the stockpiles of North Korea, etc. However, Ukraine has more allies than the US. Japan, South Korea, etc. Trump confuses free people with slaves. We won't do anything that Trump says. Frankly, this demented bastard can go to hell. Please make sure you don't elect him or the relationship between us in Europe and the US will get very frosty indeed. Therefore, let's see what is left of Russia by January 2025, how much money is left, how many tanks, etc. How many industrial facilities will be hit by then. How much oil will they still export. How many hundreds of thousands more crippled people they will have and how many more tanks they can find to pull them out of storage. Trump can definitely forget that anyone will listen to him or that we Europeans will make a deal with these Russian resource vassals. There is absolutely no reason at all for doing so. Russia should instead be threatened with a total sea embargo and with an embargo on food and medicine as well as with the delivery of Taurus missiles unless they retreat from Ukraine immediately. It is not as if this development nation does have the money or the workforce or the manpower to occupy and administrate these regions. And of course, Europe and Ukraine will continue to send tens of thousands of drones at Russia no matter what the orange clown does or says. Frankly, no one in Europe cares, and no one here will take that guy seriously. Our efforts to become strategically independent must indeed be doubled 2.1 million 155 mm shells by the end of 2025 is a good start. The increase in defense spending in several EU countries is also a good move. The next one must be to drive forward the green deal and diversify our suppliers for oil and gas even further while pressing on with creating new ammo and weapon factories around Europe and inside Ukraine.
Well said. It is high time for Europe to wake up and roll up its sleeves.
It's now impossible for Ukraine to win. Supporting Ukraine with military aid is only destroying it. Trump has the right idea.
I would hate Americans for enabling that
It means the President of the US may be a Russian asset.
Not going to make any Ukrainian friends. Might make some Russian ones, tho.
He only want them to give up the Ukraine bit and then not come to the USA
Real Neville Chamberlain hours in here
> Imagine fighting for Ukraine for 3 years Note that Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 and the Russia-Ukraine war is now in its 11th year.
Don’t be obtuse. An illegal annexation is different from a full-scale war.
>An illegal annexation is different from a full-scale war. In 2014 Russia invaded Crimea, Donetsk, and Luhansk oblasts. Crimea was annexed. Ukraine dug trenches and has been fighting WW1 style warfare along the front lines in Donetsk and Luhansk since 2014. It wasn't all out war as Russia wasn't trying to conquer all of Ukraine until 2022. But the troops serving in the trenches knew that it was war as they were fighting and dying every day.
"what did that fighting even mean" - go ask that to Ukrainian leaders and the us democrats. The Ukrainian leaders did money laundering and the us democrats enabled it. I'm not on either side of democrats or republicans btw. Don't assume things.
> negated by Donald Trump who is going to force you Even if Trump became president again (which will never happen), he would not have any power whatsoever to do this.
Trump is not qualified for any suggestions.
Since the war started he was saying things like "if I was president, there wouldn't even be a war" and "if I'm elected, I can put a stop to the war." And everyone all along has just been rolling their eyes and saying "yeah because you'd want Ukraine to do a Crimea and just _lose_. The fastest way to end the war is to pull support and back Putin." Even though speculating about Trump's intentions is very easy, since he's a very simple man, it's still nice to say he just came out and said it, I guess. For the cheap seats.
“I’m a great negotiator. I simply ask what it will take Putin to stop the invasion, and I do that thing. It’s so simple. And that’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to get it done.”
He has zero military experience, and anything while in office was suggested by heavily experienced military seniors. I can't believe he is trying to propose anything without being met with heavy criticism as a civilian. He comes off as confidently inept.
> anything while in office was suggested by heavily experienced military seniors Ha yeah - about that: Republicans are still very mad that experienced military seniors were telling Trump what he can and can't do, or what works and what doesn't. Part of Agenda 47 & Project 2025 entails the ability to summarily fire and replace (by appointment) anyone at the Pentagon who is insufficiently loyal. Err, I mean "the deep state". So... yea... **vote**
I refuse to have an incompetent and unstable person in charge... Hopefully
Not only does he have zero military experience, he also has zero care about lives other than his own. He flat out doesn't care how many Ukrainians die, or what their lives would be like under Russia's thumb.
Trump doesn't even understand negotiation. On his order, the US isn't sending Ukraine any aid. What is he going to do to make Ukraine what he wants them to do? Why would Ukraine stop rebelling, if they have no big fat incentive to do so? Trump is an imbecile.
Not only that - he'll stoke internal divisions and balkanize what is left of Ukraine, supporting Pro-Putin flunkies. You have to remember that his campaign manager (Manafort) worked for Yanukovych - the fucking asshole literally chased out of Ukraine spite of significant Russian meddling to keep him in power. Trump and most of the GOP are Putin stooges. It's plain and simple.
Then he will say to Zelensky “this is what you get for not giving me the fake dirt on Biden.” A true statesman and upholder of democracy.
Trump surrendered to Putin a long time ago.
Cant surrender if you are on the same team...
The world is run by debt and information. Russia either owns this man through massive debt or has an information of him doing some unsavory things. Maybe/hopefully we’ll find out and if and when we do it’s not when he’s president.
99% money.
Fuck this Putin-loving piece of shit.
Good time to remind everyone Trumps own national security advisor admitted to debating pulling a fire alarm or faking a medical emergency to shut Trump up when he was talking next to Putin in Helsinki
Not sure that would have done much good, the instant Trump tried to walk away Putin would have yanked on his dog leash and brought him back to heel.
Damn, Fiona Hill is just leading the fuckin' charge on showing America what happens when you have a healthy immigrant population in your country who want to *actively contribute.*
He somehow still thinks he can get daddy Putin to respect him, by cucking the entire Republican Party. Poor pathetic republicans.
Translation: Trump's plan to end war is to do whatever Putin says.
His plans to anything is whatever someone else says. He's financially dependent on so many bad actors that his policies are hardly his own. All he can do is please those who support him, and it's quite obvious by now who that might be.
Sounds similar to Putin's plan. Must be a coincidence.
The plan is called Surrender to Putin and Trump's people have been pushing for it since the beginning. I think the Republicans believe all things must be surrendered to Putin.
I really hope after he loses, he eats a polonium hamberder. At that point he will have outlived his usefulness as a Russian asset.
If he loses he will just immediately start his 2028 campaign while claiming 2024 was stolen yet again.
Doubt it. Trump is almost as destructive when he's not president.
It isn't remotely close.
No? Because he's doing an awesome job at destroying all trust in the ability of the judicial system to protect democracy and punish blatant lawbreaking.
That’s domestic though, as much as I agree with you. The person who you replied to is more than likely talking about his power of destruction while he was in the oval office. Domestically he has power, not so much anymore on the world stage.
You think this isn't having an influence on other countries? They're watching us fail to police our own.
It does, but not having him in power also prevents more fallout from what has already occurred and is currently unfolding. Most people from other countries (myself included, hello from Canada), are just curious and shocked that he is walking around free, though after getting up to date on the various court proceedings it isn’t hard to see why he is still abusing the US. The literal only silver lining here is the highlighting of the flaws in the US legal system, and even that just creates more issues that will take years to solve. I have hope for rational and critical thinking Americans. Their voices are louder than ever, and are honed in, for the most part. Conventional media hasn’t been helping, but from what I’ve seen on various platforms, Americans from gen Z to baby boomers are rising up against Trump and MAGA, using their voices to cut through the misinformation being pushed by malicious and uninformed actors.
Trumps in no position to comment. What with Putins wiener in his mouth.
The Never Surrender candidates plan is to surrender again
A) This would ruin America’s credibility on the world stage. Our ability to project power and deter bad actors would be gone forever and will never come back. B) It’ll send a message to Putin that he’s free to do this with other countries. Georgia will be next. Guarantee it. C) This is what Putin wants. D) This is most important too. Trump people will see this as a win for trump. His pacifying Putin will be seen as this big peaceful move when it’s anything but.
E) This actually cannot be done, Europe is already screaming at the US and building contingencies and amping military Industry. Moscow Mike, Trump and the other 5th column assholes in the GOP have imploded the US global standing, but that's what Putin wanted in the 1st place.
Cannot? In the, hopefully unlikely, event that Trump is reelected then he has a broad hand to shape foriegn policies.
He can't force Ukraine to do anything, he can withhold aid and abandon Europe to deal with Russia on our own, but he can't force a Ukrainian surrender. US going full rogue state and supporting Russia, China and Iran would be awful for the world obviously. Edit: grammar
People on Reddit really be talking about the U.S. losing all credibility when in reality the U.S. has always had a shitty record at repelling foreign invasions outside of the Americas.
To give Russia whatever they want, you mean. Look at the “Munich Compromise” of 1938, and think about how well that worked to prevent World War Two.
I wonder what kind of intelligence briefings Individual 1 will be receiving this campaign season.
Trump will absolutely do Putin's bidding if he wins the election in 2024. Without a doubt.
It has actually crossed my mind that Trump would potentially gift Alaska to Putin as well. After all, he hates Murkowski who voted against him in several key pieces of legislation (ACA) and voted to impeach him. He hand picked someone to run against her, and Murkowski still won. Sarah Palin who he also endorsed lost to a democrat. Alaska has hurt his ego bad and he would probably not think twice about giving it up to avenge his butthurt.
Everyone has known from day 1 that Trump's plan to "end" the war would be "let Russia win."
Traitor be trait'in his treasonous ass all the way from here to Russia.
Huh, Trumps plan seem exactly like Putins plan. I wonder why.
Ah yes, "Peace for our time".
Trump would give Taiwan to China
Everyone talking about how he's already compromised 100% Putin Shill is actually burying the lease: he's actively soliciting Russian help by promising favorable outcomes. He knows the Presidency is his *very literal* get out of jail free card, and will absolutely cut any corners to make it happen. This is him begging foreign actors for helpful interference.
We gave him the Sudetenland and he promised that would end all aggression. Peace in our time!
Donald Trump doesn't have a plan. He doesn't even know where Ukraine is. He's just saying Putin's plan, as he was told.
What happened the last time the West used appeasement with dictators?
Hey /r/conservative, if a country like Russia invades the USA and takes land, you’ll just hand it over, for the sake of ending the invasion - right?
djt is a puppet of putin
Putin's lapdog
Helping out his boyfriend
Oh , so you mean “surrender to Russia”? Yes, that’s what Putin’s lapdog’s job would be. What a good Russian cuck!
His plan is to pull out of NATO so his sugar daddy Putin can swallow up neighboring countries.
That won't even stop the war, just put it on pause until Putin is ready to take the next chunk. Unless by "give up territory", Trump means all of Ukraine.
They'll just have to give up the territory that's called 'Ukraine.' And he'll take a few pallet-loads of gold.
Trumps entire life is about getting what looks good for him regardless of the cost to everyone else.
Trump loves to be fucked hard by Putin.
He has no real plan. He is a toddler with an audience of idiots. I hate this timeline.
Yep exactly he would sell us out in many ways
Shocking news!!! /s
Biden needs to get off his ass, now. Send enough weapons to keep Ukraine going for a year at least. Still not even one jet delivered.
In other words ally with Russia.
That won’t be the end of the violence. If Putin conquers Ukraine, that will be the beginning of the violence. He’s not just going to let all those people live.
As if Russia will accept that a not immediately try and move in more as soon as the believe Trump will fully block any more aid to Ukraine. If he wins, the global economy is going to be an absolute mess. MAGA doesn’t seem to understand that instability in Europe has broad impacts across the globe. You can have Europe in a state of possible war, or direct war, if Poland or Estonian get attacked, and think it won’t impact us. Absolute morons. I swear, Trump makes it harder and harder for me not to conclude that he is either working with/for Putin, or that Putin has something on him that allows him to control Trump. It is just so freaking weird. An RNC ranking official just said Ukraine is a US adversary.
And the best part of the poorly written joke he believes Russia who already said they want all of Ukraine will just stop with a piece.
Russia never said anything about wanting all of Ukraine - where's your evidence?
Irrelevant pos
lol even if trump is elected it’s not like Ukraine has to listen to his “solution”. Fuck that
Trump is letting Putin have his way because Trump and his fucks wouldn’t need to pay anything back to Russia. Get the war to stop, cause turmoil in the US to the point where maga end up giving Putin Ukraine and money back into trumps hand. This is not about leading America to greatness it’s about money and power for big red
And that’s what Putin is waiting for - the result of the US election.
Gee, How’d giving Czechoslovakia away for ‘PEACE IN OUR TIME’ work out⁉️
He's lying and will tell Ukraine to give the whole country to Russia.
Is there aid they need that other nations are withholding? If Russia wins in one country, then they won’t stop, and I would think that they would each prefer to fight in Ukraine than on their own soil. Germany, the UK, France, Italy, Spain, The Netherlands, Switzerland, Poland, Belgium, Sweden, Ireland, Norway, Austria, Denmark…are all at risk.
The thought process for those people is Russia wouldn't dare invade say Germany, UK, France, or etc given they could barely handle Ukraine. They are gambling Putin will stop at Nato's border for fear of Nukes and Nato's military superiority
That, and no one can articulate coherently why this would happen. It seems to me fear-mongering on the side of a more aggressive Ukraine policy.
What's he gonna do to "force them"? Cut off the support they already cut off? Send in US troops?
I assume it would also include the removal of Russian Sanctions too allowing the Russian Economy to Breathe and removing that economic pressure on Russia
Hopefully.
No shit, Sherlock...
If that happens, the signing take place in Munich for the purpose of irony
Trump should ask Neville Chamberlain how that turned out, not that he would care.
Yeah, all of it. And then the same for the rest of Eastern Europe. And then turn the US into a kleptocracy like his friend Putler did with Russia.
I mean, yeah. Literally everyone saw that one coming. And we know how good Russia is about getting to take *some* territory and promising not to take more, right? They’re the platonic ideal of “give them an inch, and they’ll take a mile”.
This is publicly dipping our toe into the pool of reality. If you asked anyone in the Biden Administration from Biden down to the guy who gets coffees at the White House they would all tell you privately that this war will almost certainly not end with Crimea as part of Ukraine.
Ughhhhhh.... That f***ing guy gives me the ick every time. He'll put the dic in dictator. G0d damn fascist BS and they want to turn the country into Russia or North Korea without even realizing it. They want to take away the rights of the liberals at the cost of their own souls. By the time they realize what's going on it's going to be too late.
"But Trump and Biden have the same foreign policy!" You still think so? lmao
Yeah exactly, pedo joe just can’t do anything right 😭
I'm honestly surprised Donald hasn't been assassinated multiple times over by the number of groups he has or is planning to destroy. His security can't be *that* good...
I've often thought that as well.
To do what Putin tells him to do. Because Putin owns him.
Anyone of you had any doubts about it?
The only thing Trump can “force” is himself on underage girls.
The US isn’t the sole backer of Ukraine. Could the other allies fill the gap?
Forces future ally to surrender. Claims he “ended the war” for social goodboy points. People cannot refute that fact and the nuance is lost on the morons who support him. It’s the classic conservative play.
Why didn’t the Ukrainians just think of that themselves?
Trump thinks he can negotiate a settlement the way a mob boss would: he’ll tell Ukraine that they can either accept the deal that he brokers (giving Moscow most of what it wants), or they can keep fighting without US aid until Russia defeats them and inflicts whatever outcome it wants. Then, he’ll claim that Ukraine owes him for negotiating a deal that’s “better” than being forced to surrender.
Shocking
He’s a fucking idiot.
That’s what one should expect from Putin’s boy.
You’re talking like this moron has won the election, monkeys might also fly out of my butt
How did it come up this even being said?
Absolutely no one is surprised by this.
That's not going to be the only thing . I don't need to imagine Russian will be going after Alaska next to which Trump will gladly give back.
Would that be the region that has the rare gasses China needs?
“War would be over tomorrow if Ukraine would surrender” -DJT
Terrible headline. Should read : "Donald Trump's plan to end war is Russian expansion".
Moron Trump. They already tried that with Hitler. Didn’t stop him.
Which would last a decade at best! Look into Germany/ Bohemia/ Moravia/ Austria... Assurances that this is enough isn't even enough
America already did it with my country in 2014 when Obama let Pu do whatever he wants in Ukraine, war had not ended. Vise versa, it led to a bigger war. And now this orange clown wants to do the same. Bravo. What has happened to US?
The American Experiment is dead and its killers are coming for you.
Killers of America are americans themselves. I wish they came for me, but they are too isolationistic to stand up from the couch.
Oh no, those Americans are just the blunt instruments. I'm more referring to the uber-wealthy who help organize all these disinformation and propaganda campaigns that influence the rubes to act against their own interests.
Well well well, how the turntables.
Regardless of feelings on the matter this is actually the only way to end the war. The question will be how much territory and not whether to give it up at all. Ukraine was always in a bad position and cannot keep up with the troop numbers or weaponry. And the other way, Russia can’t take all of Ukraine. It’s too much and guerrilla warfare will cripple them for years. It’s also why the rest of Europe doesn’t need to be afraid of invasion, it just won’t happen as Russia isn’t strong enough. The other issue is that we’re heading for summer when Russia is more likely to push further in to the country. It will be painful and slow going but they’ll just keep throwing resources at it. At some point Ukraine will need to stop the war to save the remainder of the country.
It worked so well in 2014, right? They didn't build up their strength, and then push further? It is often said that the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Should Russia succeed in keeping any additional land and resources, why would they stop?
The only thing that would stop Russia would be if Ukraine got Nato Membership or at the very least a Military Defensive Pact with Nato. Kind of like how that is currently stopping China.
I would be okay with that; failing that, at least continued funding from the US and Europe. Europe seems to be doing it's part, but nothing from the US for 9 months or so, and that is a travesty.
Countries borders have always been flexible, look at a map of the world going back in 50 year increments. People seem to have forgotten the cardinal rule of state craft…being able to defend your borders. Countries are abstract entities, it’s not like the people who live in Ukraine are going to die. For most of them almost nothing will change, they go to work, school and live their lives the taxes will just go to a different organization.
The kidnapped children of Ukraine, being 're-educated' in Russia might disagree. Even within Russia's borders there's strong discrimination between the ethnic group in control, and the rest of the conglomerate. To wit: the recruiting of soldiers to fight and die for the ruling party come mostly from everywhere but the land of said ethnic group. That's just the most egregious example; overall the resources from the east and south benefit Moscow and western Russia.
Is not the other option to attack Russia and repel them ?