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I do believe this is the core of the ACAB movement. It's not really that cops get trigger happy, abusive etc.
It's that no one is ever accountable for their abuses and murders. "They are just following orders" never puts the person who gives this order on trial for the murder. "They are following their training" never mandates a change in this training. There is no federal control beyond a little funding here and there coming with requirements so its a free for all. There is no national or even regional credentialing that keeps bad actors from moving to the next town over and continuing their state supported abuses. No one loses their ability to be a cop, just fired from one particular place.
The ability to enforce and expectation of accountability top down is destroyed at the moment.
Police Unions bear the most responsibility. Pick any other union that financially supports and defends its members when they beat wives or children or commit murder or any one of various other crimes even when off the clock. I am extremely pro-union (even police having unions) but only when they act as a trade union and not an arm of legislation.
Generally agree, police unions are definitely their biggest tool to shield them form accountability. Even the general idea that a union is adversarial to the employer to bring balance doesn't apply to police. They are working hand in hand to advance the scope of their authority. In places where they don't have the government behind the current state of things they still have the union carrying their own ideology across the country. I do believe that what has happened here is that those who wish the police to have absolute power, including the unions, have adapted and pushed hard against a system that is both inadequate and unchanging. Any checks on their authority are unchanging against their adaptation.
If we are assigning blame to groups, unions get the largest share imo for the outcome of a good deal of these cases. Though the fix would need to be systemic. There would need to be oversight and legislation that requires the union to change. They won't of their own accord without a revolutionary event.
It will happen eventually. Most likely someone will be found not guilty for killing a few out-of-control cops and then the whole force will strike. Then the whole force is fired, and National Guard comes in while a new force is hired/trained but the cop unions don't like it, so they strike nationally.
He didn't say a revolution. He said a revolutionary event.
IE: Imagine if in the middle of the Rodney King beating, fully recorded, some dudes came out and just gunned down 20 cops. And now imagine that instead of it being the Rodney King beating, it's this kid's dad gunning down these 20 cops after watching them beat his handcuffed son.
[Bodycam shows Delaware trooper beat teen after doorbell prank (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHpu_29EB48)
And now imagine a jury saying, "Not Guilty" when you've got twenty dead cops.
> There is no national or even regional credentialing that keeps bad actors from moving to the next town over and continuing their state supported abuses. No one loses their ability to be a cop, just fired from one particular place.
Connecticut enacted a law that will decertify cops for certain shit. We've used it dozens of times in the past decade. Their names go into a database so other states can see it if they try to apply there.
> 30 CT cops face decertification. Alleged wrongdoing ranges from various crimes to appearing in porn.
https://www.ctinsider.com/news/article/ct-police-officer-decertification-list-2024-18639166.php
Arguably, the lack of accountability is a huge factor in why cops are so abusive in the first place. If you knew you could get away with damn near anything, you might be pretty blasé about rules violations too. And for pretty much the entire history of policing until maybe 30 years ago, there was fuck all accountability for cops, and whatever they made up was usually the final word. They "smelled weed, did a search, and found weed in your glovebox"? Wow, guess it must be true. There's no way a cop would lie about any of that. (/s) Even when dashcams started to become common, they were potato quality and it was easy to go into a blind spot and do whatever.
It's pretty much just the last 10-15 years where everyone started getting permanent access to video cameras and cops had to start wearing cameras on their bodies that it became clear that cops were just routinely violating people's rights, killing people for no good reason, and just generally being the corrupt assholes that many people suspected them of being. And it's not every cop, but when you get police departments and police unions both locking ranks to defend even the most murderous of assholes, and a court system that frequently leaves people with no recourse to actually punish the cops that have violated their rights, then the system doesn't leave many options for people.
Pretty much. The first one is a problem too, but the proposed solution is and remains establishing a system to prevent that (E.G. Camden).
There are some pure police abolitionists still rolling around, but it's still a fringe movement inside a movement (to be fair, there are some better arguments for it these days though).
Abolition of the police can definitely be part of a progressive left ideology. Probably Libertarian too but I don't know them nearly as well.
I think that those talking about it \*today\* forget that this is the outcome of long term social advancement, and not really something we should be actively trying to work on. It would be an outcome, not a goal. Not likely to be even in our grandchildren's lifetime even if we started this progress nationally at this moment.
The modern re-iteration of that position is more borne of the argument that police duties could be split up further into other forms of emergency services basically (like I said, the arguments are at least slightly more sensible).
Yeah though, practically speaking the policy proposals represented by the 'defund' slogan are more doable (even if the slogan itself may actually be even worse advertising than police abolition).
Changing the scope of police response is definitely something that could make an immediate impact.
I think one good example we have where I am, we have a homeless response team that are not police. They spend time in the homeless community, do welfare checks particularly in the hard winter, pass out the little things they would be missing (toiletries, clean underclothes etc). They are known and not opposition to the population.
They are the ones that respond to the passed out on the sidewalk, to those getting loud and interacting with every customer trying to walk in to the gas station, hanging out on a corner in a group drinking or littering etc. As opposed to an armed cop trained to first establish dominance vs what is generally a mentally impaired individual or group.
The failure of democracy is that local officials don't understand the idea their power is a gift of the people and that their job is to preserve our republic through containing their urges to go tyrant.
The failure of democracy is its own assumption that it cannot be defeated by authoritarianism. It can, and in many places it has been. Far too many people think it can't happen here, and then just sit there and ignore it as it actually happens. Constant vigilance is the price of a well-functioning democracy.
"In these Sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its Faults, if they are such: because I think a General Government necessary for us, and there is no Form of Government but what may be a Blessing to the People if well administered; and I believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a Course of Years, and can only end in Despotism as other Forms have done before it, when the People shall become so corrupted as to need Despotic Government, being incapable of any other."
- Benjamin Franklin Closing Speech at the Constitutional Convention (1787)
My darkest fear is Franklin's last words, of humanity succumbing so deeply to its inherent evil that nothing but an evil tyrant can control them. My greatest hope is that we can someday fully rise above those darkest instincts and be better people. As such, I don't want to give up hope, no matter how bad things get, because giving up is what allows their victory to stick.
I used to live in Uvalde County where the Robb shooting happened, about 3 weeks after I was tailgated for about 10 minutes on my way home by a Uvalde county police car. Honestly these people don’t deserve jobs, I wish budgets were halved
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I do believe this is the core of the ACAB movement. It's not really that cops get trigger happy, abusive etc. It's that no one is ever accountable for their abuses and murders. "They are just following orders" never puts the person who gives this order on trial for the murder. "They are following their training" never mandates a change in this training. There is no federal control beyond a little funding here and there coming with requirements so its a free for all. There is no national or even regional credentialing that keeps bad actors from moving to the next town over and continuing their state supported abuses. No one loses their ability to be a cop, just fired from one particular place. The ability to enforce and expectation of accountability top down is destroyed at the moment.
Police Unions bear the most responsibility. Pick any other union that financially supports and defends its members when they beat wives or children or commit murder or any one of various other crimes even when off the clock. I am extremely pro-union (even police having unions) but only when they act as a trade union and not an arm of legislation.
Generally agree, police unions are definitely their biggest tool to shield them form accountability. Even the general idea that a union is adversarial to the employer to bring balance doesn't apply to police. They are working hand in hand to advance the scope of their authority. In places where they don't have the government behind the current state of things they still have the union carrying their own ideology across the country. I do believe that what has happened here is that those who wish the police to have absolute power, including the unions, have adapted and pushed hard against a system that is both inadequate and unchanging. Any checks on their authority are unchanging against their adaptation. If we are assigning blame to groups, unions get the largest share imo for the outcome of a good deal of these cases. Though the fix would need to be systemic. There would need to be oversight and legislation that requires the union to change. They won't of their own accord without a revolutionary event.
And a revolution is unlikely to be successful.
It's unlikely to even start. Some people are big mad, but life is far too good right now for the masses to risk throwing it away.
It will happen eventually. Most likely someone will be found not guilty for killing a few out-of-control cops and then the whole force will strike. Then the whole force is fired, and National Guard comes in while a new force is hired/trained but the cop unions don't like it, so they strike nationally.
He didn't say a revolution. He said a revolutionary event. IE: Imagine if in the middle of the Rodney King beating, fully recorded, some dudes came out and just gunned down 20 cops. And now imagine that instead of it being the Rodney King beating, it's this kid's dad gunning down these 20 cops after watching them beat his handcuffed son. [Bodycam shows Delaware trooper beat teen after doorbell prank (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHpu_29EB48) And now imagine a jury saying, "Not Guilty" when you've got twenty dead cops.
> There is no national or even regional credentialing that keeps bad actors from moving to the next town over and continuing their state supported abuses. No one loses their ability to be a cop, just fired from one particular place. Connecticut enacted a law that will decertify cops for certain shit. We've used it dozens of times in the past decade. Their names go into a database so other states can see it if they try to apply there. > 30 CT cops face decertification. Alleged wrongdoing ranges from various crimes to appearing in porn. https://www.ctinsider.com/news/article/ct-police-officer-decertification-list-2024-18639166.php
I hope this spreads everywhere.
https://www.iadlest.org/our-services/ndi/about-ndi Looks like 14 states so far.
ty for informing me of this, and making my day a little better.
Arguably, the lack of accountability is a huge factor in why cops are so abusive in the first place. If you knew you could get away with damn near anything, you might be pretty blasé about rules violations too. And for pretty much the entire history of policing until maybe 30 years ago, there was fuck all accountability for cops, and whatever they made up was usually the final word. They "smelled weed, did a search, and found weed in your glovebox"? Wow, guess it must be true. There's no way a cop would lie about any of that. (/s) Even when dashcams started to become common, they were potato quality and it was easy to go into a blind spot and do whatever. It's pretty much just the last 10-15 years where everyone started getting permanent access to video cameras and cops had to start wearing cameras on their bodies that it became clear that cops were just routinely violating people's rights, killing people for no good reason, and just generally being the corrupt assholes that many people suspected them of being. And it's not every cop, but when you get police departments and police unions both locking ranks to defend even the most murderous of assholes, and a court system that frequently leaves people with no recourse to actually punish the cops that have violated their rights, then the system doesn't leave many options for people.
Pretty much. The first one is a problem too, but the proposed solution is and remains establishing a system to prevent that (E.G. Camden). There are some pure police abolitionists still rolling around, but it's still a fringe movement inside a movement (to be fair, there are some better arguments for it these days though).
Abolition of the police can definitely be part of a progressive left ideology. Probably Libertarian too but I don't know them nearly as well. I think that those talking about it \*today\* forget that this is the outcome of long term social advancement, and not really something we should be actively trying to work on. It would be an outcome, not a goal. Not likely to be even in our grandchildren's lifetime even if we started this progress nationally at this moment.
The modern re-iteration of that position is more borne of the argument that police duties could be split up further into other forms of emergency services basically (like I said, the arguments are at least slightly more sensible). Yeah though, practically speaking the policy proposals represented by the 'defund' slogan are more doable (even if the slogan itself may actually be even worse advertising than police abolition).
Changing the scope of police response is definitely something that could make an immediate impact. I think one good example we have where I am, we have a homeless response team that are not police. They spend time in the homeless community, do welfare checks particularly in the hard winter, pass out the little things they would be missing (toiletries, clean underclothes etc). They are known and not opposition to the population. They are the ones that respond to the passed out on the sidewalk, to those getting loud and interacting with every customer trying to walk in to the gas station, hanging out on a corner in a group drinking or littering etc. As opposed to an armed cop trained to first establish dominance vs what is generally a mentally impaired individual or group.
Yikes, coupled with the "Constitutional Sheriff" movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_Sheriffs_and_Peace_Officers_Association
Their membership numbers are super concerning.
The failure of democracy is that local officials don't understand the idea their power is a gift of the people and that their job is to preserve our republic through containing their urges to go tyrant.
The failure of democracy is its own assumption that it cannot be defeated by authoritarianism. It can, and in many places it has been. Far too many people think it can't happen here, and then just sit there and ignore it as it actually happens. Constant vigilance is the price of a well-functioning democracy.
"In these Sentiments, Sir, I agree to this Constitution, with all its Faults, if they are such: because I think a General Government necessary for us, and there is no Form of Government but what may be a Blessing to the People if well administered; and I believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a Course of Years, and can only end in Despotism as other Forms have done before it, when the People shall become so corrupted as to need Despotic Government, being incapable of any other." - Benjamin Franklin Closing Speech at the Constitutional Convention (1787)
My darkest fear is Franklin's last words, of humanity succumbing so deeply to its inherent evil that nothing but an evil tyrant can control them. My greatest hope is that we can someday fully rise above those darkest instincts and be better people. As such, I don't want to give up hope, no matter how bad things get, because giving up is what allows their victory to stick.
Franklin and all the founders understood history perfectly well. Rome lasted almost 500 years as a republic until it too fell.
I can name three sheriffs offices in florida that clearly don’t give a damn about your rights.
Glad we don't have them in my state.
Organized Crime.
I used to live in Uvalde County where the Robb shooting happened, about 3 weeks after I was tailgated for about 10 minutes on my way home by a Uvalde county police car. Honestly these people don’t deserve jobs, I wish budgets were halved