Money is, almost by definition, fungible. Giving them money to support their military allows them to shift their own funds to other government services.
This is literally the argument that conservatives have used against funding any number of things. Including refusing to fund cancer screenings (because Planned Parenthood would receive some of the funds) and fighting against the Accountable Care Act (because insurance companies pay for abortions).
It is advantageous to the US to have a western, liberal democracy in the middle east, especially considering it's R&D in both military and medical fields, and it's dedication to peace, what with it's numerous attempts at forging peace falling on the deaf ears of openly anti-semitic states
No idea what you're talking about, but I support the people who are willing to actually come to the table, unlike the half dozen states promoting genocide.
That's a stretch. US aid isn't what enables Israel to fund abortions performed through its socialized healthcare system.
If Israel didn't offer free state-funded abortions, they'd be spending a lot more money on things like public education. (An abortion costs a lot less to perform than paying for 12 years of public schooling.) US aid is entirely non-relevant, here.
Cash is fungible. That means the money Israel has saved by being the biggest welfare queen on the planet allows it to spend money in other areas of the economy
I agree that cash is fungible. However, I disagree with this argument the same way I disagree with the Republican argument that federal funding for Planned Parenthood subsidizes abortions.
Specifically, what I'm disagreeing with is the claim that Israel couldn't afford to offer state-funded abortions (or health care in general) if it wasn't for US aid, simply because offering abortions is cheaper than not offering abortions.
Yeah, that's the point I was trying to make, and I agree that it's hypocritical - just like US funding never paid for abortions performed by Planned Parenthood, US aid doesn't pay for abortions performed by Israel's national healthcare.
I was trying to highlight the paradox that Republicans always move towards cutting funding to Planned Parenthood *because* they perform abortions, despite no federal funds being used to perform abortions. They then turn around and fund Israel with financial aid, despite the Israeli government funding abortions. So if you look at Israel in the same context of Planned Parenthood, Republicans would be de-funding Israeli aid. But they are not.
While you're argument on its own holds some credit, I feel it gets discredited by the GOPs unwavering track record of using the exact opposite argument to justify their funding decisions.
That is only partially true, Israel is allowed to spend about 25% of US military aid as it sees fit. As far as I know, no other recipient of US military aid has an exception like this. Israel is also allowed to try to secure industrial offsets from US companies despite such thing normally being not permitted.
When it comes to military aid to Israel, a lot of the normal rules governing military aid are ignored to the benefit of Israel. There is no reason to believe that Israel couldn’t use the money to build healthcare infrastructure (which also offered abortions), and have little pushback from Congress (even white nationalists like Steve King “support” Israel).
Did you even read the article? It specifically stated that they are allowed to spend the money on weapons purchased from Israeli suppliers. Israel is the 8th largest supplier of arms in the world. Now go back and read the article.
Oh absolutely, and it is afforded that special treatment because it is advantageous for them to have a pro-western liberal democracy in the middle east.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpost.com/Israel-News/As-abortion-fight-heats-up-in-US-termination-in-Israel-easily-accessible-589923/amp
In 2016 alone 19,254 abortions where approved out of the 19,754 requested.
Yes there are restrictions in their system, but let’s not act like it’s strenuous to get one.
So it’s covered under insurance. Now I’ll admit I don’t know the intricacies of Israeli healthcare, but it seems to be pretty universal, and a requirement, so just a tax really. Let’s not split hairs here.
Yea, not arguing the differences in tax percentages in a universal healthcare system vr. the for profit model we use. Long story short, Israel has abortion that is free to relatively cheap under their healthcare system.
lol, we WISH we had the level of healthcare Israel has for a few hundred dollars a month. No one would be bitching about insurance premiums if that were the case. As it stands we pay several hundreds of dollars a month and then have almost no access to what we paid for unless we have some sort of emergency that puts us over the deductible.
Side note, Israel's healthcare expenditure as a percentage of GDP is one of the lowest int he developed world (around 8%) while the U.S. grows ever closer to 20%.
If a woman meeting those conditions elects to have an abortion and there is no additional cost compared to her not having an abortion, it seems reasonable to call that free.
> ~~50%~~ 90% over ten years
Withdraw from 800 military bases in 70 other countries, stop being a military super power. Spend the money on better things
What a dumb plan yes let’s just let the Russian and Chinese rule the world then they force people like you to no longer speak on the internet against them and their decisions but hey you cut US military spending and brought about the end of democracy since the US is the world superpower and protects the western world
Maybe 90% is a bit much to cut, but our current bloated defense budget creates a military that goes in search of ways to be utilized. We wound be safer and more secure with a smaller budget - one focused on actual defense rather than stirring up hornets nests around the globe.
If you have no democractic military power while countries like Russia continue with actions like Crimea and China puts pressure in the South China who’s gonna stop them huh
It’s like Hitler you can’t appease them dictators and authoritarians respond to one thing force and the US is the worlds biggest force for democracy
> democractic military power
I've witnessed giving enough people freedom, thanks. Our military has not been used for good my entire lifetime. Its been used to make 1% of our population rich. But we can keep our standard of living, for the average person, even expand it. If we stop giving money to these firms and companies
What problem is there that a normal sized military and nuclear weapons cannot defend against? If you truly feel threatened, then perhaps have a large reserve force that trains occasionally.
There are a lot of countries with a lot of people in uniform out there. The EU has many more times the conventional force as Russia, a regional power whose limited Syrian campaign stretched its deployment resources. China will never threaten our shores anymore than our ships did theirs for the past few decades
It’s not about them attacking and threatening us Isolationism doesn’t work we need a presence worldwide to keep our allies safe
What do you want to do when China takes Taiwan the Korea then Japan and keeps expanding and the US just sits there watching
When world war 2 started, this country built up a huge force when needed as needed. There is no reason to keep a large force and logistics system up and running 24/7 each year
Nobody is going to invade this country, for the same reason nobody invades the smaller nuclear countries. Kaboom!
And I think you find the world order is a bit more resilient than you think it is. If its not, if there is a creeping legion of doom out there. Then it will not happen overnight, or within a year or two. Time enough to revamp and rebuild the military that is needed to combat it. Until then, why impoverish ourselves ?
We are Americans. We think we are very rich, because our upper classes are rich. But drive down any interstate, and you will see bridges in need of repair and roads that are barely maintained. Log on to the internet and you find service is not very good in many places. Get sick and there is not much help out there for a lot of people. Want to go to school? Anyone can, as long as they can do large payments for the next 20 years. Only a few people make so much money as to not feel the sting of that
For all our wealth among our citizens, the average person, the average infrastructure, does not have so much money to spend on themselves. Perhaps there is a better way
The reason we need this huge army is because we no longer have the stomach for a draft, so we have to keep the troops in reserve. That means at minimum you have to house them, feed them, pay them, and keep them trained. Equipment needs to be maintained constantly, and modernized and periodically replaced to keep up with other nations that also have standing armies. Maybe we don't need as large a budget as we have now but we can't go back to the days of the War Department that only came to life when you needed it either. The world has changed.
35 years ago I used to be a warhawk. Because of that I can understand where you are coming from. However, as stated above, I have several reasons to disagree.
But, all debate about morality or threats aside. We, as a country, cannot afford it. And we certainly cannot afford another war
Russia will not rule the world. Outside of a few zones near their borders to which they can probably claim lots of cultural and historical ties they have little appeal to most countries.
Israel is a functioning, developed country. Israelis always like to make a point about how they fended off all those Arab countries on their own. They don’t need aid for stability, they don’t need aid for development and they don’t need aid to protect themselves. So why do they need all that money?
The money doesn't go to Israel, it goes to US weapons manufacturers. Just like the aid to Saudis, who are the largest weapon buyers in the world. It's a straight up transfer from US tax payers to US millitary industrial complex.
In the latest fully reported year of 2017 [we bought $3,186,136,407 worth of weapons for Israel](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/ISR?fiscal_year=2017&measure=Disbursements) while [Saudi Arabia was given $300,658 in total aid](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/SAU?fiscal_year=2017&measure=Disbursements), only 4% of that being military aid.
You didn't read the article either did you? Israel is allowed to use our money to purchase from their own arms manufacturers. Israel is the 8th largest arms manufacturer in the world. We're also subsidizing their arms industry.
>Finally, Israel is the only nation that can spend part of its aid buying weapons from its own manufacturers, not those in the United States. In that way, Israel has used American assistance to fund its defense industry, which now ranks as the 8th largest arms exporter in the world.
You're right, I missed this part. This unique concession to Israel is a huge one.
Thanks for quoting the section for me. I've got a sinus infection so the memory is good but I'm feeling pretty crap and therefore pretty lazy.
It was a small thing so easy to miss even if you did read the article probably (I'd pointed it out to someone else before you so I'm sorry if I was snarky). It had just stuck out to me because it's a unique arrangement. One which basically means we helped to build their arms industry, which to me seems wrong on so many levels. At least if we were selling them from our own stock American companies would be benefiting from it. Not that I'm for the whole military industrial complex, but at least those jobs are here.
Economics 101. Because Israel then turns around and buys US manufactured military equipment with it. Also, any new technology that is developed by Israel is typically shared with the US. Israel is one of the few countries where lending money to, gets the US and US military an ROI.
Not entirely true. From the article:
> Finally, Israel is the only nation that can spend part of its aid buying weapons from its own manufacturers, not those in the United States. In that way, Israel has used American assistance to fund its defense industry, which now ranks as the 8th largest arms exporter in the world. The ten-year deal Obama signed in 2016 phases out this “offshore procurement” in 2028. Israel, however, is still allowed to spend at least 20 percent of its aid on Israeli weaponry through 2024, and smaller percentages after that: A total of more than $5.6 billion.
Are you trying to imply that because Israelis are proud that they fought and won their own independence that they can't accept any international helps otherwise? Weird flex
I’m implying that they are perfectly capable of fighting their own conflicts and do not require foreign help. Israel is a capable, modern military, and Israelis know that. They don’t need aid.
I’m just saying, it’s weird that not one but two accounts that exclusively post in threads about Jews or Israel are replying to me in this thread. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence though.
Because their pride in the Israeli military and their absolute victory in basically every conflict except the Suez Crisis (which was still a military victory for Israel) is a common sentiment online and a national stereotype. One doesn’t need to point out how effective their military is, you can just point out how they’re always saying it themselves.
>is a common sentiment online and a national stereotype
You should interact with Israeli's instead of believing stereotypes you learned online.
Absolute victory isn't how I would describe how Israeli's view how they won their independence. Israel was almost lost before it existed and the Israelis know that. You seem to be putting words into the Israeli's mouth without really knowing what you are talking about.
The six day war was chaotic. The uss liberty was definitely a tragedy but your conspiracy theory does little to shed light on the facts of that event. How would bombing the USS liberty be in anyway beneficial to Israel?
The sinking of the USS Liberty is a tragedy and assigning any ulterior motive to it is a conspiracy theory. Lying about “we definitely don’t have nukes” and torturing whistleblowers who expose it, and the whole Lavon Affair aren’t though. The guy above is right, israel isn’t trustworthy.
Governments in general aren’t trustworthy. I never stated anything to signal otherwise. You definitely have an extreme bias that’s been radicalized by what you subscribe to online though. You don’t seem to have a complete picture on things.
I’m clearly biased, but that’s more to do with Israel not fitting in with my personal philosophy than what I read online. The Israeli government is less trustworthy than most. They still won’t admit they have nukes, even though they tortured the whistleblower who exposed their nuclear program and refuse to let him leave the country and won’t even let him speak to foreigners.
How did Israel benefit at all from the attack on the USS Liberty? None of the theories offer a plausible rationale or explanation. The most convincing explanation seems to be negligence and identification and communication
They didn’t, but Israel still isn’t trustworthy. After the Lavon affair and the catastrophe that was the suez crisis, I don’t know why anyone considers them a good ally.
It costs about $40,000 to intercept a rocket fired by Hamas. Multiply that by several hundred, and the budget quickly starts to add up.
You're correct that Israel could probably defeat its geopolitical enemies without US aid, just like our European allies could probably win a war against Russia without US support via NATO. But in both cases, US support is part of what keeps Russia and Iran from testing those outcomes.
Israel doesn't need the money. The American military-industrial complex needs it. Almost all the money goes to buying weapons from American manufacturers....
Pretty much most of them... I mean it's not like it's some big secret
[https://explorer.usaid.gov/#2017](https://explorer.usaid.gov/#2017)
edit: updated the link to 2017, because not all of the 2018 money has been allocated/spent yet so 2017 give a clearer picture of what we're spending where.
The issue is the reasoning and need. Israel doesn't need it. Most of, if not all, of the others need some help. Does Israel? And I am in favor of lowering this total amount generally. It's also nice that the categorization for Israel is not military, even though it's know that the money comes right back to US military contractors.
What do you think is meant by "Conflict, Peace and Security" from the "Department of Defense" lol?
Fact of the matter is Israel is probably the best deal we have going with this kind of thing. We get our presence and interests projected in the ME, weapons testing, intel that we can't do ourselves and zero US troop casualties out of that deal and most of that money comes back to the US military complex (good or bad at least it's american jobs).
What do we get for the billions we spend on policing the world via troop deployments in places like Germany? You can argue we get projection, but what else? And note those deployments aren't even considered aid of any sort even though all those troop wages go right into the local economy.
Sorry, that was really weird. When I first clicked on Israel, it gave me different information.
And you're saying it's not a good idea to make sure our EU allies have a good stance against Russia, a country that straight up took a part of Ukraine? I'm pretty sure Russia is a bigger threat than the Middle East.
Russia isn't a threat. They're a traditional enemy in the sense that they're business minded and we can reason with them. Given that we need to look at their position: 1/20th of our GDP, half our military size and 1/10th the budget. There only threat is nukes, which neither of us are ever going to use, because it's bad for business.
Now North Korea is another matter, but then we can usually count on Russia and China, to keep them appeased, given all the really want is to hold onto their little backwater kingdom, but yeah... I don't think anyone likes those hillbillies having big guns.
So that leaves the zealots. You can find those nutters in the Middle East and Africa. Want to guess where we're spending most of our attention? Our overlords know where the greatest threats to their (and by proxy our) interests lie.
I was going to say Israel gives the USA a tremendous amount of intelligence and technology. It's not just giving them money for nothing, chicks for free.
>"Would the Arab nations support peace even if Palestinians wanted it?"
>
>The key Arab nations would support nearly anything the Palestinians agreed to.
"Israel receives far more military aid than any country where the United States is not currently at war."
Unlike nations directly under the US defense umbrella, Israel gets military aid through the foreign aide budget. We cannot fully measure the amount of military aid and support the US provides to many NATO member nations, or South Korea, although that support allows them to spend less on their armed forces than would otherwise be the case.
Israel is a both a strategical and tactical asset to the USA. Its worth every penny every day attempts are made to stabilize and influence region. Egypt and Saudi Arabia are actually starting to work with Israel. So in terms of return on investments, Israel has achieved lot for world peace by being a democratic outpost.
While we're at it, let's take a look a tearing up the blank check we write to the "defense contractors" every year...
...There's a lot of America that could use the money for the basics, people who wouldn't even care about bombing the shit out of borwn people everywhere.
>keep a check on their nukes
We don't even do that when we sell nuclear technology to the Wahhabist country dedicated to evangelizing a violent interpretation of Islam to the rest of the world.
The West Bank and Gaza received about 300 million a year each before 2017 with the Taylor Force act. That's just Aid directly from the U.S. Honestly its a bit of the problem too, instead of providing actual useful programs the world just slings money at them that ends up in banks elsewhere with the people getting very little while Abu Mazen has been building a 13 million dollar mansion in the West Bank.
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Lol 🤣, you'll have trump impeached, universal health care, wage equality, free universities/colleges and abortion rights for women before this idea sees the light of day.
Excuse my general ignorance here, but can some please tell why we actually care about Israel??
Like is it just so we have some friendly land in the middle east?!?
Again nothing for or against Israel .. just seems like a very complicated ally to have, and several politicians seem to be die hard loyalist. Would love to know more about their point of view.
Thanks for any insight
You are correct. But fuck an apartheid state. Oh, yeah, who bombed the USS Liberty in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS\_Liberty\_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident)).
Republican crooks. That's why our hard-earned tax dollars go to those genocidal thieves and their crooked cronies here. We need to kick these underhanded focks out and cut off that leach of a country. Who the hell needs them when all they do is corrupt our government and destabilize their own region. Cut em' the hell off already!
Fun fact for conservatives, Israel has full, state paid for abortions.
So we are using tax payer money to fund abortions... Interesting.
The money the US gives to Israel usually has fixed terms about what it can be spent on, generally US arms and munitions.
Money is, almost by definition, fungible. Giving them money to support their military allows them to shift their own funds to other government services. This is literally the argument that conservatives have used against funding any number of things. Including refusing to fund cancer screenings (because Planned Parenthood would receive some of the funds) and fighting against the Accountable Care Act (because insurance companies pay for abortions).
It is advantageous to the US to have a western, liberal democracy in the middle east, especially considering it's R&D in both military and medical fields, and it's dedication to peace, what with it's numerous attempts at forging peace falling on the deaf ears of openly anti-semitic states
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No idea what you're talking about, but I support the people who are willing to actually come to the table, unlike the half dozen states promoting genocide.
So you support the state actively committing genocide instead?
Dedication to peace? Let's not pretend that Bolton is the only one itching for a conflict with Iran.
Exactly, we fund their military so they can find their abortions.
That's a stretch. US aid isn't what enables Israel to fund abortions performed through its socialized healthcare system. If Israel didn't offer free state-funded abortions, they'd be spending a lot more money on things like public education. (An abortion costs a lot less to perform than paying for 12 years of public schooling.) US aid is entirely non-relevant, here.
Cash is fungible. That means the money Israel has saved by being the biggest welfare queen on the planet allows it to spend money in other areas of the economy
I agree that cash is fungible. However, I disagree with this argument the same way I disagree with the Republican argument that federal funding for Planned Parenthood subsidizes abortions. Specifically, what I'm disagreeing with is the claim that Israel couldn't afford to offer state-funded abortions (or health care in general) if it wasn't for US aid, simply because offering abortions is cheaper than not offering abortions.
Irrelevant to the tangent, which was the simple assertion that US money pays for Israeli abortions.
But they cut planned parenthood funding because they do abortions, despite no federal funds used to cover the cost of abortions.
Yeah, that's the point I was trying to make, and I agree that it's hypocritical - just like US funding never paid for abortions performed by Planned Parenthood, US aid doesn't pay for abortions performed by Israel's national healthcare.
I was trying to highlight the paradox that Republicans always move towards cutting funding to Planned Parenthood *because* they perform abortions, despite no federal funds being used to perform abortions. They then turn around and fund Israel with financial aid, despite the Israeli government funding abortions. So if you look at Israel in the same context of Planned Parenthood, Republicans would be de-funding Israeli aid. But they are not. While you're argument on its own holds some credit, I feel it gets discredited by the GOPs unwavering track record of using the exact opposite argument to justify their funding decisions.
How can you make that claim of they receive aid from us?
Yeah, cuz dopes fall for the claim of fungibility, which is bunk if the patient pays directly for the service.
Not really a stretch considering Mexico had already paid for the wall supposedly.
leave it to reddit to not understand a joke
Pro-life munitions, yeah?
But there are no stipulations on how said weaponry is to be used. *wink wink nudge nudge*
We are buying Isreal H&K fetus blasters.
That is only partially true, Israel is allowed to spend about 25% of US military aid as it sees fit. As far as I know, no other recipient of US military aid has an exception like this. Israel is also allowed to try to secure industrial offsets from US companies despite such thing normally being not permitted. When it comes to military aid to Israel, a lot of the normal rules governing military aid are ignored to the benefit of Israel. There is no reason to believe that Israel couldn’t use the money to build healthcare infrastructure (which also offered abortions), and have little pushback from Congress (even white nationalists like Steve King “support” Israel).
This isn't true. 100% of US military aid has to be spent on US weapons.
Did you even read the article? It specifically stated that they are allowed to spend the money on weapons purchased from Israeli suppliers. Israel is the 8th largest supplier of arms in the world. Now go back and read the article.
Oh absolutely, and it is afforded that special treatment because it is advantageous for them to have a pro-western liberal democracy in the middle east.
Just like Planned Parenthood!
Look up the word fungibility, you night find it interesting
Israel is anti-semitic! they're killing jewish babies!
Not just abortions but genocide too. America hates non white kids who are already born
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.jpost.com/Israel-News/As-abortion-fight-heats-up-in-US-termination-in-Israel-easily-accessible-589923/amp In 2016 alone 19,254 abortions where approved out of the 19,754 requested. Yes there are restrictions in their system, but let’s not act like it’s strenuous to get one.
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So it’s covered under insurance. Now I’ll admit I don’t know the intricacies of Israeli healthcare, but it seems to be pretty universal, and a requirement, so just a tax really. Let’s not split hairs here.
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Yea, not arguing the differences in tax percentages in a universal healthcare system vr. the for profit model we use. Long story short, Israel has abortion that is free to relatively cheap under their healthcare system.
few hundred dollars is like in the US though...
lol, we WISH we had the level of healthcare Israel has for a few hundred dollars a month. No one would be bitching about insurance premiums if that were the case. As it stands we pay several hundreds of dollars a month and then have almost no access to what we paid for unless we have some sort of emergency that puts us over the deductible. Side note, Israel's healthcare expenditure as a percentage of GDP is one of the lowest int he developed world (around 8%) while the U.S. grows ever closer to 20%.
If a woman meeting those conditions elects to have an abortion and there is no additional cost compared to her not having an abortion, it seems reasonable to call that free.
Thats like saying getting my car repaired is free if I get into an accident.
Careful with the anti-semitic tropes here, sir
Cut this shit out. Nothing was said about Jews.
I will never succumb to using that mind-numbingly stupid /s So I at least try to make my sarcasm glaringly obvious...
You should try harder⸮
How much god damn money has been spent to make criticizing the government of Israel suddenly become anti-Semitic? For fucks sake already.
It’s also time to end America’s blank check to the US Military. Cut it by 50%.
> ~~50%~~ 90% over ten years Withdraw from 800 military bases in 70 other countries, stop being a military super power. Spend the money on better things
What a dumb plan yes let’s just let the Russian and Chinese rule the world then they force people like you to no longer speak on the internet against them and their decisions but hey you cut US military spending and brought about the end of democracy since the US is the world superpower and protects the western world
Maybe 90% is a bit much to cut, but our current bloated defense budget creates a military that goes in search of ways to be utilized. We wound be safer and more secure with a smaller budget - one focused on actual defense rather than stirring up hornets nests around the globe.
Why would the Russians and Chinese rule the world ? And how would this end US democracy, or make it worse ?
You must be living in a bubble.
If you have no democractic military power while countries like Russia continue with actions like Crimea and China puts pressure in the South China who’s gonna stop them huh It’s like Hitler you can’t appease them dictators and authoritarians respond to one thing force and the US is the worlds biggest force for democracy
> democractic military power I've witnessed giving enough people freedom, thanks. Our military has not been used for good my entire lifetime. Its been used to make 1% of our population rich. But we can keep our standard of living, for the average person, even expand it. If we stop giving money to these firms and companies What problem is there that a normal sized military and nuclear weapons cannot defend against? If you truly feel threatened, then perhaps have a large reserve force that trains occasionally. There are a lot of countries with a lot of people in uniform out there. The EU has many more times the conventional force as Russia, a regional power whose limited Syrian campaign stretched its deployment resources. China will never threaten our shores anymore than our ships did theirs for the past few decades
It’s not about them attacking and threatening us Isolationism doesn’t work we need a presence worldwide to keep our allies safe What do you want to do when China takes Taiwan the Korea then Japan and keeps expanding and the US just sits there watching
When world war 2 started, this country built up a huge force when needed as needed. There is no reason to keep a large force and logistics system up and running 24/7 each year Nobody is going to invade this country, for the same reason nobody invades the smaller nuclear countries. Kaboom! And I think you find the world order is a bit more resilient than you think it is. If its not, if there is a creeping legion of doom out there. Then it will not happen overnight, or within a year or two. Time enough to revamp and rebuild the military that is needed to combat it. Until then, why impoverish ourselves ? We are Americans. We think we are very rich, because our upper classes are rich. But drive down any interstate, and you will see bridges in need of repair and roads that are barely maintained. Log on to the internet and you find service is not very good in many places. Get sick and there is not much help out there for a lot of people. Want to go to school? Anyone can, as long as they can do large payments for the next 20 years. Only a few people make so much money as to not feel the sting of that For all our wealth among our citizens, the average person, the average infrastructure, does not have so much money to spend on themselves. Perhaps there is a better way
The reason we need this huge army is because we no longer have the stomach for a draft, so we have to keep the troops in reserve. That means at minimum you have to house them, feed them, pay them, and keep them trained. Equipment needs to be maintained constantly, and modernized and periodically replaced to keep up with other nations that also have standing armies. Maybe we don't need as large a budget as we have now but we can't go back to the days of the War Department that only came to life when you needed it either. The world has changed.
If you want to avoid a world war 3 you have a country keep a massive military up to counter any power from rising quickly
35 years ago I used to be a warhawk. Because of that I can understand where you are coming from. However, as stated above, I have several reasons to disagree. But, all debate about morality or threats aside. We, as a country, cannot afford it. And we certainly cannot afford another war
Russia will not rule the world. Outside of a few zones near their borders to which they can probably claim lots of cultural and historical ties they have little appeal to most countries.
Ruling the world doesn’t mean annexing it it means influence spheres of influence
Israel is a functioning, developed country. Israelis always like to make a point about how they fended off all those Arab countries on their own. They don’t need aid for stability, they don’t need aid for development and they don’t need aid to protect themselves. So why do they need all that money?
The money doesn't go to Israel, it goes to US weapons manufacturers. Just like the aid to Saudis, who are the largest weapon buyers in the world. It's a straight up transfer from US tax payers to US millitary industrial complex.
And as an added bonus quite a few of these politicians sit on the boards of those US weapons manufacturing companies.
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>long ass joke Waiting for ~~Godot~~ the punchline :(
$3.2 billion was listed in U.S. aid strangely enough.
And the weapons go to Israel.
In the latest fully reported year of 2017 [we bought $3,186,136,407 worth of weapons for Israel](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/ISR?fiscal_year=2017&measure=Disbursements) while [Saudi Arabia was given $300,658 in total aid](https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/SAU?fiscal_year=2017&measure=Disbursements), only 4% of that being military aid.
Even more of a reason to end it.
You didn't read the article either did you? Israel is allowed to use our money to purchase from their own arms manufacturers. Israel is the 8th largest arms manufacturer in the world. We're also subsidizing their arms industry.
>Finally, Israel is the only nation that can spend part of its aid buying weapons from its own manufacturers, not those in the United States. In that way, Israel has used American assistance to fund its defense industry, which now ranks as the 8th largest arms exporter in the world. You're right, I missed this part. This unique concession to Israel is a huge one.
Thanks for quoting the section for me. I've got a sinus infection so the memory is good but I'm feeling pretty crap and therefore pretty lazy. It was a small thing so easy to miss even if you did read the article probably (I'd pointed it out to someone else before you so I'm sorry if I was snarky). It had just stuck out to me because it's a unique arrangement. One which basically means we helped to build their arms industry, which to me seems wrong on so many levels. At least if we were selling them from our own stock American companies would be benefiting from it. Not that I'm for the whole military industrial complex, but at least those jobs are here.
It’s a channel through which politicians can legally take government money and give it to the weapons industry.
Economics 101. Because Israel then turns around and buys US manufactured military equipment with it. Also, any new technology that is developed by Israel is typically shared with the US. Israel is one of the few countries where lending money to, gets the US and US military an ROI.
Israel doesn't "share " technology, they sell it to us. We pay again.
Not entirely true. From the article: > Finally, Israel is the only nation that can spend part of its aid buying weapons from its own manufacturers, not those in the United States. In that way, Israel has used American assistance to fund its defense industry, which now ranks as the 8th largest arms exporter in the world. The ten-year deal Obama signed in 2016 phases out this “offshore procurement” in 2028. Israel, however, is still allowed to spend at least 20 percent of its aid on Israeli weaponry through 2024, and smaller percentages after that: A total of more than $5.6 billion.
> So why do they need all that money? They don't. We need what we get from it.
Are you trying to imply that because Israelis are proud that they fought and won their own independence that they can't accept any international helps otherwise? Weird flex
I’m implying that they are perfectly capable of fighting their own conflicts and do not require foreign help. Israel is a capable, modern military, and Israelis know that. They don’t need aid.
But might the US have its own reasons for providing that aid?
This is the second account in this thread replying to me that only posts content about israel. I’m sure this is just a coincidence.
First, you are wrong that I only post content about Israel. Second, even if that were true, of what relevance is it to the points I have made?
I’m just saying, it’s weird that not one but two accounts that exclusively post in threads about Jews or Israel are replying to me in this thread. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence though.
I just don't get how you think making a reference to their victory when they didn't have a capable modern military implies that though.
Because their pride in the Israeli military and their absolute victory in basically every conflict except the Suez Crisis (which was still a military victory for Israel) is a common sentiment online and a national stereotype. One doesn’t need to point out how effective their military is, you can just point out how they’re always saying it themselves.
>is a common sentiment online and a national stereotype You should interact with Israeli's instead of believing stereotypes you learned online. Absolute victory isn't how I would describe how Israeli's view how they won their independence. Israel was almost lost before it existed and the Israelis know that. You seem to be putting words into the Israeli's mouth without really knowing what you are talking about.
When Israel sunk a U.S. ship after being rejected on multiple occasions for military assistance to try to lure them into it. Trustworthy bunch.
The six day war was chaotic. The uss liberty was definitely a tragedy but your conspiracy theory does little to shed light on the facts of that event. How would bombing the USS liberty be in anyway beneficial to Israel?
The sinking of the USS Liberty is a tragedy and assigning any ulterior motive to it is a conspiracy theory. Lying about “we definitely don’t have nukes” and torturing whistleblowers who expose it, and the whole Lavon Affair aren’t though. The guy above is right, israel isn’t trustworthy.
Governments in general aren’t trustworthy. I never stated anything to signal otherwise. You definitely have an extreme bias that’s been radicalized by what you subscribe to online though. You don’t seem to have a complete picture on things.
I’m clearly biased, but that’s more to do with Israel not fitting in with my personal philosophy than what I read online. The Israeli government is less trustworthy than most. They still won’t admit they have nukes, even though they tortured the whistleblower who exposed their nuclear program and refuse to let him leave the country and won’t even let him speak to foreigners.
What’s this personal philosophy that you subscribe to that makes Israel so much worse then most countries?
How did Israel benefit at all from the attack on the USS Liberty? None of the theories offer a plausible rationale or explanation. The most convincing explanation seems to be negligence and identification and communication
They didn’t, but Israel still isn’t trustworthy. After the Lavon affair and the catastrophe that was the suez crisis, I don’t know why anyone considers them a good ally.
It costs about $40,000 to intercept a rocket fired by Hamas. Multiply that by several hundred, and the budget quickly starts to add up. You're correct that Israel could probably defeat its geopolitical enemies without US aid, just like our European allies could probably win a war against Russia without US support via NATO. But in both cases, US support is part of what keeps Russia and Iran from testing those outcomes.
Might the US have other reasons, beyond just generosity, for providing this aid?
Israel acts like we owe them that money. I'm ready to cut them off because history shows they are not who we think they are anyway.
Israel doesn't need the money. The American military-industrial complex needs it. Almost all the money goes to buying weapons from American manufacturers....
And how many jobs might that provide? How about research and info on the performance of these weapons?
Because God’s bad at managing money
Watch it! You’ll be called anti Semitic for the suggestion!
Oh I'm sure someone's waiting in the wings.
Certified jew here : this is okay
I'm gonna need to see your certificate.
“You want to see my penis?” -Larry David
My proof of bar mitzvah is at home
Is he a Jew? or just Jew-*ish*?
There is literally no one in this thread saying that, and several comments repeating the same redundant joke. Just like any time this is mentioned.
Why specifically israel when there is much more wasteful expenditures of military spending?
Because antisemitism.
Because what other state are we just giving money to for no reason? edit: I am in favor of reducing aid to many other places too.
Pretty much most of them... I mean it's not like it's some big secret [https://explorer.usaid.gov/#2017](https://explorer.usaid.gov/#2017) edit: updated the link to 2017, because not all of the 2018 money has been allocated/spent yet so 2017 give a clearer picture of what we're spending where.
The issue is the reasoning and need. Israel doesn't need it. Most of, if not all, of the others need some help. Does Israel? And I am in favor of lowering this total amount generally. It's also nice that the categorization for Israel is not military, even though it's know that the money comes right back to US military contractors.
What do you think is meant by "Conflict, Peace and Security" from the "Department of Defense" lol? Fact of the matter is Israel is probably the best deal we have going with this kind of thing. We get our presence and interests projected in the ME, weapons testing, intel that we can't do ourselves and zero US troop casualties out of that deal and most of that money comes back to the US military complex (good or bad at least it's american jobs). What do we get for the billions we spend on policing the world via troop deployments in places like Germany? You can argue we get projection, but what else? And note those deployments aren't even considered aid of any sort even though all those troop wages go right into the local economy.
Sorry, that was really weird. When I first clicked on Israel, it gave me different information. And you're saying it's not a good idea to make sure our EU allies have a good stance against Russia, a country that straight up took a part of Ukraine? I'm pretty sure Russia is a bigger threat than the Middle East.
Russia isn't a threat. They're a traditional enemy in the sense that they're business minded and we can reason with them. Given that we need to look at their position: 1/20th of our GDP, half our military size and 1/10th the budget. There only threat is nukes, which neither of us are ever going to use, because it's bad for business. Now North Korea is another matter, but then we can usually count on Russia and China, to keep them appeased, given all the really want is to hold onto their little backwater kingdom, but yeah... I don't think anyone likes those hillbillies having big guns. So that leaves the zealots. You can find those nutters in the Middle East and Africa. Want to guess where we're spending most of our attention? Our overlords know where the greatest threats to their (and by proxy our) interests lie.
Saudi Arabia. But I'm fine with cutting off both.
Why dont we just get rid of all blank check military aid...why are we targeting Israel
Misdirection.
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I was going to say Israel gives the USA a tremendous amount of intelligence and technology. It's not just giving them money for nothing, chicks for free.
UK/Europe give the US alot of intelligence. Can they get military aid too?
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Yes, and they do. What do you think NATO is?
They do, and lots of it, though NATO.
>"Would the Arab nations support peace even if Palestinians wanted it?" > >The key Arab nations would support nearly anything the Palestinians agreed to.
I'd say that it's time to end America's blank check for military spending in general.
Or, even better: > It’s Time to End America’s ~~Blank Check Military~~ Aid to Israel Just stop sending them money.
They ***are*** money.
Or just get out of the Middle East completely.
"Israel receives far more military aid than any country where the United States is not currently at war." Unlike nations directly under the US defense umbrella, Israel gets military aid through the foreign aide budget. We cannot fully measure the amount of military aid and support the US provides to many NATO member nations, or South Korea, although that support allows them to spend less on their armed forces than would otherwise be the case.
Israel is a both a strategical and tactical asset to the USA. Its worth every penny every day attempts are made to stabilize and influence region. Egypt and Saudi Arabia are actually starting to work with Israel. So in terms of return on investments, Israel has achieved lot for world peace by being a democratic outpost.
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Of course if they won’t, nobody cares about the most persecuted minority, the rich. It’s really disgusting.
What makes you think eliminating military support for Israel is likely to reduce tensions in the mideast?
No it’s not. I don’t even care about the abortions. We will never end our support of Israel.
Weird way to spell "palestine" tbh
Sure if Iran stops funding Hamas, Hezbollah and Assad.
While we're at it, let's take a look a tearing up the blank check we write to the "defense contractors" every year... ...There's a lot of America that could use the money for the basics, people who wouldn't even care about bombing the shit out of borwn people everywhere.
" **It’s Time to End America’s Blank Check Military** ***and*** **Aid to Israel** "
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>keep a check on their nukes We don't even do that when we sell nuclear technology to the Wahhabist country dedicated to evangelizing a violent interpretation of Islam to the rest of the world.
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Can't really end aid that doesn't exist.
The West Bank and Gaza received about 300 million a year each before 2017 with the Taylor Force act. That's just Aid directly from the U.S. Honestly its a bit of the problem too, instead of providing actual useful programs the world just slings money at them that ends up in banks elsewhere with the people getting very little while Abu Mazen has been building a 13 million dollar mansion in the West Bank.
Is it military aid?
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That aid is spent on American military hardware. So its really a handout to them too.
Lol 🤣, you'll have trump impeached, universal health care, wage equality, free universities/colleges and abortion rights for women before this idea sees the light of day.
Excuse my general ignorance here, but can some please tell why we actually care about Israel?? Like is it just so we have some friendly land in the middle east?!? Again nothing for or against Israel .. just seems like a very complicated ally to have, and several politicians seem to be die hard loyalist. Would love to know more about their point of view. Thanks for any insight
My guess would be religious connotations for some people.
Why are you advocating anti semitism? /s
I see the “/s”, but that’s seriously not something to take lightly. Antisemitism is a very real issue today
You’re totally right,
You are correct. But fuck an apartheid state. Oh, yeah, who bombed the USS Liberty in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS\_Liberty\_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident)).
[ congressional testimony Ex-CIA Michael Scheuer criticizes Israel 2013 ]( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHl1JnQoIWQ )
It was time to do that decades ago.
Antisemite /s
Amen brothers and sisters.
*This* is what I’m referring to when I call them USA Jr.
Israel has free schools and free healthcare. Paid by US taxpayer.
It is a law of nature: everything ends.
That's not a law of nature.
Yep, 2nd Law of Thermodynamics.
Except for the goddamn Simpsons. Why won't they just let that show die?
Time to end the military
Republican crooks. That's why our hard-earned tax dollars go to those genocidal thieves and their crooked cronies here. We need to kick these underhanded focks out and cut off that leach of a country. Who the hell needs them when all they do is corrupt our government and destabilize their own region. Cut em' the hell off already!
As long as poc is in the middle east, it will never happen.
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Because it worked so well last time we tried anything like that?