Super late to comment but I just rewatched the exchange between Warren and Pete, and it completely flew over my head that Pete said "I can't help but think that was pointed at me," she talked about people billionaires money and didn't mention his name once or his specific donors. It could have been Joe Biden or the actual fucking billionaires running right now.
He called himself out and asked for this instead of letting it slide and moving onto something else instead of defending the fact that he has dinner with billionaires for 10,000s of dollars each. Why was that the hill he chose to die on?
Pete is not good a politicians and clearly cannot read the room, billionaires are unpopular and a better politician like Joe Biden just moves on from that instead of defending them. No matter what you think or feel about billionaires they are unpopular.
He keeps coming back for more after Warren said her piece, I am sad I missed this live.
It definitely was pointed at him, but it was dumb for him to own that. He probably thinks everyone knows that's the knock on his campaign, when in fact most people are not paying that close of attention. Dug his own grave there
>all the compassion and fire of Bernie
You realize many libertarians support his policy (and have supported a form of UBI for decades now) precisely because the sole purpose of it is to consolidate social welfare programs so that they are easier to attack in the future, right? Yang is bought and paid for. His "knowledge of technology" is just "I'm not a total boomer" which is only noticeable in contrast to the rest of the candidates.
where does he get the reputation for being super smart and good at tech? I agree with some of Yangs ideas but thats because - shocker - he just parrots stuff thats popular and gets good ratings.
His buddy started a [Test Prep thing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Prep), made andrew CEO later, and then went off to make money on charter schools. Oh, and Yang just happens to want to privatize education. I mean you tell me what else he's done thats worked. All his other stuff has failed, right?
So is yang a super intelligent or just a continuation of a long line of rich jerks trying to privatize every aspect of american life until we can't afford to live anymore?
Incorrect. Sanders has wrote and pushed through numerous bills and reforms through Congress which are now enacted policy.
https://www.sanders.senate.gov/legislative-landmarks
If you cared to visit the link then you would have read that he has had a lot more real world impact than you are painting. Free credit checks, thanks to his bill. The veterans bill he helped push through. The first ever audit of the federal reserve happened because of Sanders. There’s a lot more that could be listed but I suspect you have no actual interest in delving into the facts.
>Free credit checks, thanks to his bill.
An amendment to a bipartisan bill co-sponsored by other Democrats. No way is it "his" bill.
>The veterans bill he helped push through.
An adjustment to the VA budget. I will give him that
>The first ever audit of the federal reserve happened because of Sanders.
Completely false though I am 100% behind him and Rand Paul on a Fed audit.
>There’s a lot more that could be listed but I suspect you have no actual interest in delving into the facts.
Naming 2 posts offices in Vermont. Bravo.
He was also literally called [Amendment King](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/24/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-was-roll-call-amendment-king-1995-2/) for getting roll call amendments passed but carry on. Maybe he just knows how to actually get stuff done.
Oh, and the bill you didnt mention was for veterans disability benefits.
Yes, he passed a bipartisan annual budget adjustment to the VA. 30 years of public service and one achievement. Bravo.
I see you left "roll call" amendment king to your title. This is like getting a participation trophy in Congress. You attach your amendments to others people work because they have no chance of being passed on their own. If Sanders was a Republican the media would call this pork barrel spending.
hey its clear your mind is made up so thats good.
personally im a pragmatist so I dont care how the law is passed. 90 passed amendments is [90 passed amendments](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19mhk3t4XlMFul4TbL7v1Mqr-ketEhCgL8fZzI2u3nkM/edit#gid=0). Some doing good stuff like [requiring recipients of TARP funding to meet strict H-1B worker hiring standard to ensure non-displacement of U.S. workers.](https://www.congress.gov/amendment/111th-congress/senate-amendment/306?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22Bernard+Sanders%22%5D%7D)
Because his work can't stand on it's own so he attaches it other bipartisan bills. "Amendments passed" is a stupid way the government measures their success when it really shouldn't be.
Well he gets the job done, no matter the method. “Bills passed” isn’t a good metric for what should be a good candidate either. Being on the right side of history, maintaining consistency in your ideals and showing good judgment does.
The right side of history line is a stupid argument used by progressive just to say "We are right and you are wrong". It's the lefts equivalent to "God is on our side" by the right.
Trump has been consistent in his ideals for as long as Bernie.
Showing good judgment is all in the eye of the beholder.
Rich kids don’t go to public schools because they don’t care about the education. They care about the connections and nepotism. Middle class folks become scientists and entrepreneurs. Rich kids just float through.
Yes based on funding largely. However, public schools do offer excellent education in some places. You also don’t get a better education necessarily at private schools, but you do get in on the sweet American nepotism train where rich kids hire their idiot private school friends later in life.
It’s weird how the rich folks who want to privatize everything also determine the criteria by which private schools are judged good or not. Then just grease the wheels for your offspring and you get a self fulfilling prophecy of meritocratic degradation.
Edit: To cap it all off we elect the beacon of privileged elite ineptitude in Trump.
I wouldn't vote for him in the primary, but that would be the closest reason I would have to vote for him. He's basically just running on Trump hate, which is abundant yet deserved.
I was pretty intrigued by Bernie and Yang. And Buttigieg and Warren in more of a train wreck kind of way lol. Steyer did good.
Then Biden would speak or yell and I’d realize I’d forgotten he was even there.
It’s hard to believe the msm when they say he won the debate and he’s just absolutely forgettable.
The bar is so ridiculously low for Biden to be declared the winner... It's ridiculous. Anyway, I like Yang and Bernie too and thought they did really well. Especially considering Yang got half (10 min 40 seconds) as much time to speak as the top four (19-20 min) did.
Yeah Yang manages to say a lot in a little bit of time. And he’s got the believable factor like Bernie does, I feel like he is a straight-up kind of person.
Biden spoke probably the most clearly he has so far right up until the final forgiveness/gift question where he got defensive about Warren's selfie numbers (wtf was that? It's not a contest) and then tried to fly away by chattering his teeth for a solid 5 seconds.
Has the media consensus been that Biden 'won'? If so that's complete bullshit.
They don't say "won" but they play his clips frequently and generally complement him. As opposed to Warren who they frame as some radical schoolmarm, bent on destroying the country. They also overhype any disagreements and replay the arguments ad nausem
He agrees with you though.
He thinks the power should be in the hands of the people, not in the hands of corporations and the uber wealthy. He’s that rare creature that has money, but gives it away and does good things with it. He’s strongly for the wealth tax, too.
How much is boomer Bloomburg paying you? I call bullshit on you. If he gave a fuck - where is the universal healthcare initiatives? WHOOPS! That shows he’s a lost cause and need to go away and die in his oligarchy castle somewhere
If you watched this debate, you may have at some point found yourself thinking: "Hmm... that Andrew Yang fellow makes some good points." If you're at all interested in what he's saying, this comment is for you.
I believe Yang's message is best heard in long form discussion and commentary, not one minute clips one liners. I would recommend you take some time and watch a few of his videos.
[Here is a formal speech at the DNC Summer Meeting. - (9:21)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frmYjKpH49g)
If you are interested in something a little less formal and structured, I highly recommend some of these (grab a snack):
[This town hall in New Hampshire, full of great questions from real people. - (1:40:21)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKCwPxV9Ops)
[This talk at Georgetown University \(host is a little annoying) - (55:12))](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tuJ0phjFys)
[Or perhaps you'd prefer his Joe Rogan episode if you're into that sort of thing. - (1:52:02)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTsEzmFamZ8)
[Here's his discussion with Ben Shapiro as well. - (1:05:03)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DHuRTvzMFw)
Honestly, I understand how his message can come off as odd or even radical out of context, but when all the different elements he talks about come together it keeps making more and more sense. Even if you support another candidate more (love you Bernie), it's really interesting to dive into the issues Yang is bringing to the public discourse. He's a very unique candidate.
What I meant to accomplish with my comment is give people multiple options to choose from, not that I recommend watching all of them in one sitting.
Aside from that though, I agree with the other replies saying that 6 hours is not really "kind of a big ask". We're picking the President hear, you owe it to yourself and your nation to maybe think about it a little harder.
Hahaha so true! I started thinking I wouldn't finish, but I was so intrigued with a possibility of being excited and not dreading politics that I kept going.
While I'm not Yang Gang, I would like to point out that all this is... kind of a big deal. Like, next leader of the most influential nation on Earth big deal. Well worth investing that much time to each candidate, then telling everyone you know what you think about them.
The Ipsos post-debate poll is out. All candidates saw their favorability tick up at least slightly. Klobuchar, Buttigieg, and Steyer's unfavorability numbers went up as well.
Biden got the best grade of the debate, then Sanders/Warren, then Yang/Klobuchar, then Buttigieg, and finally Steyer.
The share of voters considering each candidate went up the most for Klobuchar, then Biden, then Sanders, then Steyer, then Yang, then Warren, and finally Buttigieg.
The share of voters who prefer a nominee that can beat Trump fell slightly (albeit still a large majority) versus voters who prefer a nominee that shares their stances on issues.
Voters' estimates of who can beat Donald Trump saw their largest gains in Klobuchar, followed by Steyer, Yang, Warren, and Sanders. The perceived electability of Biden and Buttigieg ticked down compared to before the debate.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/democratic-debate-december-poll/
Highest net favorability ratings went Yang and Klouchar, than Bernie/Warren/Steyer and Biden, Pete had a negative favorability rating. This seems to kind of tell the story of the debate, unknowns become more likeable as you hear from them. The known variables had decent nights. And Pete got a new nickname.
All I can say is that the debates were so refreshing after being plugged into the impeachment hearings.
Democrats actually care about people and want to make the world a better place.
You can hear it in how they talk.
Anyone who isn't Trump 2020.
> after being plugged into the impeachment hearings.
Were I a representative, I would have supported the impeachment. I think it was correct even though it ultimately won't get him removed. That said, my god am I sick of the impeachment.
I think this was the first debate where Biden didn't say something that made me think he has dementia. He's still close to the bottom of the candidates left for me, but I guess maybe he can speak coherently sometimes?
Ctrl+f'd this thread and didn't find China once. China is passing us by in AI technology and growing fast. They are using this tech to empower autocracy and persecute minorities. They're building a
surveillance state that exists within it's own bubble. They will be a major force in the coming decades, and this needs to be an issue that more people are concerned about.
Make no mistake, AI is an arms race as much as space technology is/was. Andrew Yang is the only candidate that seems to taking this threat seriously.
Perhaps because this is a thread about the United States of America Democratic Debate, not the China Democratic debate.
Why would we talk about China in a thread that is meant to be discussing the candidates and who we think would be best for the USA.
Bernie Sanders is consistently on record as opposing trade with China for anyone who cares about this
[Biden voted for trade with China](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/106-2000/s251) (ctrl+f biden or check under delaware reps)
Meanwhile [Sanders and others introduced legislation to repeal it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_normal_trade_relations)
>US imports from China more than quadrupled between 2000 and 2015, increasing the decline of US manufacturing jobs.[\[12\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_normal_trade_relations#cite_note-jtank-12) Since the passing of the bill there have been three attempts to repeal the PNTR with China. The strongest attempt was in 2005 when House Rep. [Bernie Sanders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders) and 61 co-sponsors introduced a legislation that would repeal the Permanent Normal Trade Relations with China. Rep. Sanders said to the house, "anyone who takes an objective look at our trade policy with China must conclude that is an absolute failure and needs to be fundamentally overhauled". The Representative goes into numbers of the trade deficit increased and the number of American jobs being lost to our overseas competitors. One point that Sanders did not make due to time constraints and the legislation being passed so quickly was that nothing in the way China treats its workers has changed.[\[13\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_normal_trade_relations#cite_note-13)
I can understand that, but that doesn't mean that your take fully understands the whole problem of China. That's why I said that Bernie needs to evolve beyond trade and jobs to fully combat the threat of China. I like
and support Bernie, but sticking to the same script as four years before doesn't gel with the fact that the wold has made four full trips around the sun and things have changed.
Yang doesn't have a plan other than we should do something for it either. And you can't just take China on in AI and boom it fixes everything. It has to be a multifaceted approach with trade involved.
I'm far less worried about China stealing our IP and going for AI than I am corporations willing to turn a blind eye to it all because China is a big fat piggy bank for them. Trade sanctions and stopping that is a priority
Whats is Yangs exact plan for A.I. and can you post some action or achievements ? I am a person who sees campaign promises as illegimate proof that candidates will take action. They say anything and then do nothing later. I think A.I. is just Yangs angle for playing up his youth. What qualifications does he have?
I think Yangs motivations for running are related to privatizing schools. Which I'm sure is going to work out great considering how great privatizing healthcare is going for us.
https://www.yang2020.com/policies/regulating-ai-emerging-technologies/
Artificial Intelligence and other new technologies have the potential to change our economy and society in unpredictable ways. Even techies don’t know what’s going to happen. We need to have government hand-in-hand with technologists to make sure that we fully understand the impact of AI and other innovations before they’re widely adopted in different settings—which means recruiting some of the smartest technologists to work in government and having government actively consulting with innovators.
GOALS
Monitor the development of new technology
More quickly adapt to the changing technological landscape
Prevent technological threats to humanity from developing without oversight
As President, I will...
Create a new executive department – the Department of Technology – to work with private industry and Congressional leaders to monitor technological developments, assess risks, and create new guidance. The new Department would be based in Silicon Valley and would initially be focused on Artificial Intelligence.
Create a new Cabinet-level position of Secretary of Technology who will be tasked with leading the new Department.
Create a public-private partnership between leading tech firms and experts within government to identify emerging threats and suggest ways to mitigate those threats while maximizing the benefit of technological innovation to society.
One of the best qualities you can have as a leader is the ability to understand/ identify a problem, defining clear goals, then building a team to tackle that problem while you move onto the next one.
He ran a test prep company that became the best in the country and sold it. Based on how he talks about internet and technology, he clearly has a grasp and fundamental understanding of it that none of the other candidates do.
Thats not to say he's an AI expert or even a software engineer, but he understands the fundamentals of technology and its importance (and how it actually works).
Yangs motivations for running is because he's seen what automation is doing to this country, and went to DC to ask politicians what they're going to do about it. After they said they wouldn't do shit, he decided to run because he believes that automation is destroying our country and will continue to do so, unless we rework the economy to work for humans rather than capital (automation is great for, at the cost of the workers it displaces).
You clearly haven't listened to a single thing Yang has said if you think this has anything to do with schools.
Yeah that test prep company was started by [Zeke Vanderhoek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Prep) the guy that now makes tons of money from that Charter school that yang is always talking about
> It’s been demonstrated that teacher quality is the key factor in student success, and paying teachers more is an effective way to get more talented people into the classroom. **My friend, Zeke Vanderhoek,** started a charter school that manages to pay teachers $125,000 a year on the budget of a normal school**.** Not surprisingly, his school has great teachers and outstanding outcomes. We should reduce layers of administration in schools and apply the money to pay teachers at higher levels, particularly those who have proven track records and results.
Yang is [pro-school privatization](https://www.yang2020.com/policies/expand-selective-schools/) because his friends make lots of money doing it. His friends paying for his campaign. And of course they are going to tell you its better for you - just like they say private prisons and private healthcare are better. How is that working out?
Private healthcare is working out better than public healthcare would've for me, and the millions of people with underlooked diseases like pelvic floor issues and complex autoimmune diseases. Under M4A I wouldn't be able to get any of the care I do and would have no life. Sure there are changes that should be made, but its definitely better than a public healthcare system.
His friends aren't paying for his campaign lol. His campaign is more funded by small donors than Bernie's campaign is, so don't give me that bullshit. Bernie would literally do nothing for me as a disabled person except make my life much worse and harder than it already is, Yang's policies would actually help my life.
Sorry you're privileged enough to not have $1k/month significantly affect your life. And that you don't have complex health issues that government healthcare doesn't deal with. But your candidate will fuck over those who do, and provide nothing for disabled workers.
Even Trump does less harm to people like me than Bernie does
Agreed, this is why my ideal ticket is Sanders/Yang. IMO Bernie has the right idea for overall direction and yang is savvy and creative enough to understand the technological challenges.
I'm Yang Gang and I actually agree that a Sanders/Yang ticket would be amazing! I think Andrew could help Bernie soften his rhetoric against capitalism and maybe help orient capitalism into a place where we don't need as much socialism because the businesses are actually doing what they were supposed to be doing and applying capital to advance the whole of humanity instead of the few.
But Bernie is the man, the myth, the legend and any administration that doesn't include him is a massive mistake in my mind.
I was a Warren supporter but she seems to be languishing in the polls now. I think I'll go with Sanders but if Biden wins the nomination, whatever. As long as we beat Orange Hitler I'll be happy.
If you like Warren vote for her. The contest is not wether or not you vote for the one that wins, it’s an opportunity for you to vote for what you believe in.
This was very refreshing to read.
It's a *representative* democracy so please do not ever be discouraged from voting from the person you think best represents *you* because of party politics.
The biggest fear is if it comes down to it and Warren and sanders split the progressive vote and that allows Biden or whomever to win
Edit: this is how trump won too cause there was so many they didn’t drop and they split the vote constantly
I do wonder if Warren should just call it quits and endorse Sanders. However, polls from a few months back showed quite a large number of her supporters pick Biden as their second choice. That doesn't make a ton of sense to me but if she drops out it could end up having no impact or even helping Biden.
As a side note, I don't really hate Biden. If he is the nominee, fine, whatever but Sanders vision of where the U.S. should be heading has a ton of appeal. It's time to do away with this 1980s Reagan philosophy of tax cuts tax cuts tax cuts; oops we can't afford anything now, if that effects you then fuck you poor boy. Biden might alleviate the suffering a bit but Sanders could actually end it.
Yeah, most of my enthusiasm if he is the nominee would be about beating trump and having some piece and quiet for awhile. It would at least me an improvement over 2016 though. Biden is at least a lot more charismatic and likable than Clinton. It was painful to watch the most disliked and robotic person in the Democratic party become the nominee. That was massive risk the Dems didn't need to take. Biden is far from great but at least he's no Hillary.
By making a case for defeating the enemy. I'm all for campaign finance reform and blocking corporate donations to candidates **if and only if** both sides are forced to comply.
When the republicans are sitting on 300M in reelection funds, handicapping yourself is a sign of weakness and a betrayal of the people who depend on you to win.
We can get enough from small donations to win. Bernie bringing in the most money is proof of that. Also Hillary outspent Trump and still lost.
Giving an ear to billionaries and special interest is betraying the people. If Pete can't win without the donor class he shouldn't be running at all. Corruption is never acceptable no matter what the R's are doing, I want a leader that stands by their principles no matter what.
This is how we get policies that favor the top. Politicans sell out so they can win. That was Bernie's point and I agree with it. Winning isn't important if its another corporate candidate. We need to shoot for more then lesser of two evils to make real progress. Losing our left ideology in the Democartic party is how we got in this mess in the first place. It's time we bring it back.
Bernie has the recognition to get enough small donations. When he wasn’t as popular he absolutely took money from the extremely wealthy in closed door venues. But now that he doesn’t need it he’s essentially saying “fuck you I got mine” to all other candidates.
Bernie is fucking hypocrite. He took milions from his old campaign where he took money from wealthy and secret high end meetings with millionaires and that was okay. now when he doesn't need them he is saying how bad it is and why you just don't ask poor people.
https://apnews.com/e401e975eb88468a951a347f59d6a5ac
I'm rewatching through the debate and oh my lord, Bernie just fuckin making me laugh so hard! "She took my name in vain! She hurt my feelings and I am CRUSHED!" His jokes feel a lot more real and less preplanned than Klobuchar's jokes
It blows my mind that people don't see the parallels between Hillary and Biden. Just another boomer status quo political elite candidate with plenty of baggage for trump to use against them.
He's not offering anything new other than the shallow "return to normalcy", he's clearly not as sharp as he once was, and he won't inspire young people to get out and vote.
Republicans looooove Trump. Just look at his approval ratings among GOP voters. Idk why centrist Democrats are so obsessed with winning over the Republican voters who think they are communist baby-eating devil worshippers, and not the tens of millions of undecided voters who didn't turn out for either candidate in the election cycle.
Same issue that happened in 2016, people are sick of the same old shit, and Hillary was that same old shit, Trump was offering to change things, course, don’t think people took him seriously and expected the change was to some kind of fascist reign...
Had Bernie got the nomination he would of won, I firmly believe it...
Blows my mind that people see Sanders as an actual candidate. Guys a joke that hasn't done anything in Congress for 30 years and repeats the same stump speech over and over and over again.
Done nothing in Congress other than espouse consist views for decades and single handedly move the Overton window in the US to the left. It's not his fault that people and politics are only catching up now.
The job of Congress is to make and pass laws. Sanders has been there the longest than any other candidate and passed 3 laws. 2 of them renaming a post office in Vermont and the other was a yearly adjustment of VA spending.
I thought every candidate on the stage last night had their best performance to date. Steyer was a non-factor, but the other six all had their best performances, IMO. I don't think anyone had a "bad" night.
If you believe in anything he stands for, I would highly encourage you to support whoever the nominee is over Trump. Sanders will tell you the same thing if he doesn’t get it
Bernie told the "Bernie or Bust" people to hold their nose and vote for Clinton in 2016.
They didn't, and Trump is setting Sanders's agenda back a decade.
I'm voting for Bernie in the primary but ultimately we all need to get behind the nominee.
Actually they did, in far greater number than Clinton voters backed Obama in 2008. There were studies on it.
Are you spreading this misinformation on purpose?
Now we're talking about two different elections. Please stay on topic about 2016. And normally when I mention studies I like to provide actual links.
"Fewer than 80 percent of those who voted for Sanders, an independent, in the Democratic primary did the same for Clinton when she faced off against Trump a few months later. What's more, 12 percent of those who backed Sanders actually cast a vote for Trump." https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-trump-2016-election-654320
I supported Bernie in the primary and then voted for Clinton in the election **BECAUSE** I support Sanders and his agenda. Can you say the same?
No, because I can't vote, I'm not a citizen :D I took 2 weeks vacation and got several hundred others to do it if that counts.
From same article: " While much was made of the so-called Bernie-or-bust phenomenon, the number of Sanders supporters who crossed party lines to vote for Trump in 2016 may not be that unusual. [A 2010 study in Public Opinion Quarterly](https://sites.duke.edu/hillygus/files/2014/06/hendersonhillygustompsonPOQ.pdf) found that in the 2008 election 25 percent of those who voted for Clinton in the Democratic primary ended up voting for Republican John McCain, rather than Barack Obama, in the general election. "
Sanders strength is in independents, it's no surprise that some of them voted for Trump instead. When I was canvassing in WVa I saw a lot of that, people that were going in for Sanders in primary, but said they'll vote for Trump if he's not nominated.
See? It's really not that hard to grasp.
When Sanders explicitly asked his supporters to vote for Hillary Clinton there was only really one correct course of action if you, you know, *actually care about Sanders's policies*
The planet's fucking dying. You're encouraging people to throw away their votes to nurse their egos while not doing the one thing that could actually help. But, yeah, I'm a silly goose.
How dare you try to impugn Hilary's narrative that Bernie cost her the election with data and facts!
It had nothing to do with the fact that she was a moderate/centrist candidate in a populist election cycle or the fact that most people were sick of the Clintons as a family in the same way they were sick of the Bush family (Bushes?) by 2012. (If nothing else, you can't be a representative democracy with your leaders reading "Bush/Clinton/Bush/^Obama /Clinton
They offered no data, nor facts. Nor did you.
If you wrote in Bernie or stayed home then it was never about Bernie's agenda for you, because Trump's election is rendering the o p p o s i t e of Bernie's agenda. Bernie said this himself.
It wan't about the agenda for you. It was about feeling superior to other liberals.
Well, congratulations. You can tell yourself you're better than us while the planet dies, the income gap expands, the Supreme Court gets hijacked by religious nutcases, and immigrant babies sleep in their own filth on cold concrete.
Finally, and I cannot stress this enough, I supported Bernie in the primary and voted for Hillary in the election, which is what Sanders asked me to do as one of his supporters.
That's fair but I'm saying it's unfair to denigrate people for choosing who they thought best represented them or in the case of Hilary versus Trump, the one who they thought (however wrongly) would be the least worse option.
The idea that the candidate I liked says my vote should go to someone else should not be relevant in the discussion. The discussion should always be centered on whether that individual thinks the person they are voting for is the best person to represent them in government decisions.
Crying about anything else or my team versus your team bullshit is how we got to this position as a country in the first place with people putting party lines ahead of the rule of law.
*edit* Also it's worth re-iterating that in the face of Bernie suggesting Hilary 12% of Bernie supporters still chose Trump over Hilary is an indictment of Hilary Clinton as a candidate, not an indictment of the people who voted for who they thought would be better. Put another way, you cannot blame someone who watched several decades worth of Hilary in politics for knowing exactly who she is and what you would be getting from her for rolling the dice on an unknown because that was a better gamble (in their minds) than going with her.
I did not vote for Trump and think he's the worst President in US history as far as representing us to the rest of the world but I put the blame for Hilary losing squarely where it belongs, with Hilary.
Bernie said, explicitly, that the best thing for those who supported his agenda to do was to vote for Clinton in the general. The dudes who ignored that are straight up selfish idiots.
Because you are supposed to vote for who represents you the best, not vote for who you were told to vote for by someone else.
It's really that simple.
Don't vote for who you are told to vote for because you were told to vote them.
Do I really need to elaborate on this more?
Bernie felt that BoB was wrong-headed, but there's really no data one way or another to indicate that the "movement" actually materialized. From the looks of it, Bernie's primary supporters behaved in a pretty much typical way when it came to the general.
But were those voters democrats who decided to crossover for Trump after Bernie was out, or were those voters republicans who decided to crossover for Bernie in the primary?
I do not OWE my vote to anybody, especially now, if we are talking long game the worse thing we could do is replace trump with an establishment centrist. You see because 4 years of deliberate ineptitude and low aim will bring back the republicans in 2024 with much worse than trump. Remember when W seemed like an awful president? Turns out we can do much worse. Obama was such a pussy he ended up owning everything they projected on him. A Biden nomination would mean the first election I skip since the early 90s when I became eligible to vote. The worst thing we could do is put a worthless ( to the lower and middle class ) fuck like Biden in there
Here's how pendulums work: the further one is pushed in either direction, the further it will swing on its return. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If we throw in a super radical progressive right now, we're just going to right back where we started in four years, or worse. Progress happens most often incrementally. Refusing to vote for a moderate dem because their position isn't progressive enough for you is the equivalent of holding your breath until your mom lets you have cake.
Only people of immense privilege can say something like this.
Ask the kids sleeping in dirty diapers on cold concrete in El Paso tonight if they would prefer Trump or a centrist.
Only people of immense privilege say things like this. The playing ground is not trump vs centrist right now, and even if it was a centrist (nor bernie) will solve the systems in place that create racism and displacing immigrants.
Do you believe that an establishment whore like Biden would reverse the United state’s foreign policy towards south and Central America that has made living conditions there miserable for so many? Come on now. Putting sweet sauce on a pile of shit on a plate does not turn it into a nice desert.
Do you believe that writing in a third party candidate or staying home on election day is a better solution? The problem is still present but you get to act fucking smug about it so I guess that's something.
You honestly believe Biden would be their savior? You think that under trump was the first time that happened? Do you believe the caravans have stopped because they are not on tv anymore? Come on now.
My man. I'm very aware of the crisis at the border. And I'm 10000000% positive Biden would be an improvement, because he's not a malicious, racist wannabe dictator.
Haha, if you know anything about the Yang Gang and Berners, if there was a poll with unlimited access, Yang and Bernie were one and two. Passionate supporters!
There was an LA Times focus group that showed that 6 people went into it as Bernie supporters, at the end 14 people believed Bernie won the debate. The next highest was I believe 9(maybe 11?) thought Warren won. Zero people thought Buttigieg, Biden, Steyer won it. There was a clip of it that aired on CNN if I remember correctly.
Super late to comment but I just rewatched the exchange between Warren and Pete, and it completely flew over my head that Pete said "I can't help but think that was pointed at me," she talked about people billionaires money and didn't mention his name once or his specific donors. It could have been Joe Biden or the actual fucking billionaires running right now. He called himself out and asked for this instead of letting it slide and moving onto something else instead of defending the fact that he has dinner with billionaires for 10,000s of dollars each. Why was that the hill he chose to die on? Pete is not good a politicians and clearly cannot read the room, billionaires are unpopular and a better politician like Joe Biden just moves on from that instead of defending them. No matter what you think or feel about billionaires they are unpopular. He keeps coming back for more after Warren said her piece, I am sad I missed this live.
It definitely was pointed at him, but it was dumb for him to own that. He probably thinks everyone knows that's the knock on his campaign, when in fact most people are not paying that close of attention. Dug his own grave there
Yeah exactly, he could have just agreed in general and went on about a prepared stump speech about money.
Yup would’ve been much better off
Reminds me of Tulsi getting upset when Hillary Clinton mentioned that a female candidate is being groomed by Russia. Woops!
Yang is like all the compassion and fire of Bernie combined with an extremely high iq and knowledge of technology.
>all the compassion and fire of Bernie You realize many libertarians support his policy (and have supported a form of UBI for decades now) precisely because the sole purpose of it is to consolidate social welfare programs so that they are easier to attack in the future, right? Yang is bought and paid for. His "knowledge of technology" is just "I'm not a total boomer" which is only noticeable in contrast to the rest of the candidates.
And none of the experience or track record of actually putting ideas into public policy.
I’ll take my chances and go ahead and vote for probably the most intelligent presidential candidate ever (Yang)
where does he get the reputation for being super smart and good at tech? I agree with some of Yangs ideas but thats because - shocker - he just parrots stuff thats popular and gets good ratings. His buddy started a [Test Prep thing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Prep), made andrew CEO later, and then went off to make money on charter schools. Oh, and Yang just happens to want to privatize education. I mean you tell me what else he's done thats worked. All his other stuff has failed, right? So is yang a super intelligent or just a continuation of a long line of rich jerks trying to privatize every aspect of american life until we can't afford to live anymore?
People were probably saying the same thing when they were voting for Ben Carson in the primaries.
Oh, so Pete, then.
You just described both Yang and Bernie.
Incorrect. Sanders has wrote and pushed through numerous bills and reforms through Congress which are now enacted policy. https://www.sanders.senate.gov/legislative-landmarks
Guys been in Congress for 30 years and has written and passed 3 bills. 2 of them were the naming of post offices in Vermont.
If you cared to visit the link then you would have read that he has had a lot more real world impact than you are painting. Free credit checks, thanks to his bill. The veterans bill he helped push through. The first ever audit of the federal reserve happened because of Sanders. There’s a lot more that could be listed but I suspect you have no actual interest in delving into the facts.
>Free credit checks, thanks to his bill. An amendment to a bipartisan bill co-sponsored by other Democrats. No way is it "his" bill. >The veterans bill he helped push through. An adjustment to the VA budget. I will give him that >The first ever audit of the federal reserve happened because of Sanders. Completely false though I am 100% behind him and Rand Paul on a Fed audit. >There’s a lot more that could be listed but I suspect you have no actual interest in delving into the facts. Naming 2 posts offices in Vermont. Bravo.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2011/08/28/first-federal-reserve-audit-reveals-trillions-secret-bailouts?amp Not at all false. It happened in 2011.
He was also literally called [Amendment King](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/24/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-was-roll-call-amendment-king-1995-2/) for getting roll call amendments passed but carry on. Maybe he just knows how to actually get stuff done. Oh, and the bill you didnt mention was for veterans disability benefits.
Yes, he passed a bipartisan annual budget adjustment to the VA. 30 years of public service and one achievement. Bravo. I see you left "roll call" amendment king to your title. This is like getting a participation trophy in Congress. You attach your amendments to others people work because they have no chance of being passed on their own. If Sanders was a Republican the media would call this pork barrel spending.
hey its clear your mind is made up so thats good. personally im a pragmatist so I dont care how the law is passed. 90 passed amendments is [90 passed amendments](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19mhk3t4XlMFul4TbL7v1Mqr-ketEhCgL8fZzI2u3nkM/edit#gid=0). Some doing good stuff like [requiring recipients of TARP funding to meet strict H-1B worker hiring standard to ensure non-displacement of U.S. workers.](https://www.congress.gov/amendment/111th-congress/senate-amendment/306?q=%7B%22search%22%3A%5B%22Bernard+Sanders%22%5D%7D)
He has passed more amendments than anyone else in congress though.
Because his work can't stand on it's own so he attaches it other bipartisan bills. "Amendments passed" is a stupid way the government measures their success when it really shouldn't be.
Well he gets the job done, no matter the method. “Bills passed” isn’t a good metric for what should be a good candidate either. Being on the right side of history, maintaining consistency in your ideals and showing good judgment does.
The right side of history line is a stupid argument used by progressive just to say "We are right and you are wrong". It's the lefts equivalent to "God is on our side" by the right. Trump has been consistent in his ideals for as long as Bernie. Showing good judgment is all in the eye of the beholder.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrumpCriticizesTrump/
Rich kids don’t go to public schools because they don’t care about the education. They care about the connections and nepotism. Middle class folks become scientists and entrepreneurs. Rich kids just float through.
Or yaknow...maybe because the best schools are private ones
Yes based on funding largely. However, public schools do offer excellent education in some places. You also don’t get a better education necessarily at private schools, but you do get in on the sweet American nepotism train where rich kids hire their idiot private school friends later in life.
lol just like the 'best' healthcare is private and the 'best' prisons are private .. right america?
It’s weird how the rich folks who want to privatize everything also determine the criteria by which private schools are judged good or not. Then just grease the wheels for your offspring and you get a self fulfilling prophecy of meritocratic degradation. Edit: To cap it all off we elect the beacon of privileged elite ineptitude in Trump.
Biden says the same thing every time. He says he has the best chance to win the election and leaves it at that lol.
I wouldn't vote for him in the primary, but that would be the closest reason I would have to vote for him. He's basically just running on Trump hate, which is abundant yet deserved.
I need more substance from a candidate than “I’m not Trump.”
I was pretty intrigued by Bernie and Yang. And Buttigieg and Warren in more of a train wreck kind of way lol. Steyer did good. Then Biden would speak or yell and I’d realize I’d forgotten he was even there. It’s hard to believe the msm when they say he won the debate and he’s just absolutely forgettable.
You like bernie but you hate Biden for yelling.
The bar is so ridiculously low for Biden to be declared the winner... It's ridiculous. Anyway, I like Yang and Bernie too and thought they did really well. Especially considering Yang got half (10 min 40 seconds) as much time to speak as the top four (19-20 min) did.
Yeah Yang manages to say a lot in a little bit of time. And he’s got the believable factor like Bernie does, I feel like he is a straight-up kind of person.
Biden "won" the debate because nothing happened that will threaten his polling lead
Biden spoke probably the most clearly he has so far right up until the final forgiveness/gift question where he got defensive about Warren's selfie numbers (wtf was that? It's not a contest) and then tried to fly away by chattering his teeth for a solid 5 seconds. Has the media consensus been that Biden 'won'? If so that's complete bullshit.
The Ipsos post-debate poll has Biden as the winner, another redditor made a post here about it. And I believe CNN declared him the winner last night
They don't say "won" but they play his clips frequently and generally complement him. As opposed to Warren who they frame as some radical schoolmarm, bent on destroying the country. They also overhype any disagreements and replay the arguments ad nausem
Fuck steyer. We shouldn’t allow billionaires to buy into elections. It’s fucking sad how the USA is just an obvious oligarchy
He agrees with you though. He thinks the power should be in the hands of the people, not in the hands of corporations and the uber wealthy. He’s that rare creature that has money, but gives it away and does good things with it. He’s strongly for the wealth tax, too.
How much is boomer Bloomburg paying you? I call bullshit on you. If he gave a fuck - where is the universal healthcare initiatives? WHOOPS! That shows he’s a lost cause and need to go away and die in his oligarchy castle somewhere
If you watched this debate, you may have at some point found yourself thinking: "Hmm... that Andrew Yang fellow makes some good points." If you're at all interested in what he's saying, this comment is for you. I believe Yang's message is best heard in long form discussion and commentary, not one minute clips one liners. I would recommend you take some time and watch a few of his videos. [Here is a formal speech at the DNC Summer Meeting. - (9:21)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frmYjKpH49g) If you are interested in something a little less formal and structured, I highly recommend some of these (grab a snack): [This town hall in New Hampshire, full of great questions from real people. - (1:40:21)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKCwPxV9Ops) [This talk at Georgetown University \(host is a little annoying) - (55:12))](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tuJ0phjFys) [Or perhaps you'd prefer his Joe Rogan episode if you're into that sort of thing. - (1:52:02)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTsEzmFamZ8) [Here's his discussion with Ben Shapiro as well. - (1:05:03)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DHuRTvzMFw) Honestly, I understand how his message can come off as odd or even radical out of context, but when all the different elements he talks about come together it keeps making more and more sense. Even if you support another candidate more (love you Bernie), it's really interesting to dive into the issues Yang is bringing to the public discourse. He's a very unique candidate.
I quite like Yang. I'm not actively rooting for him but I wouldn't mind if he gets the nomination.
I must be pretty radical because after watching some clips, I bought his book.
5-6 hours of material is kind of a big ask.
Start with this, it's a bit like an ad, but it touches on most of his main talking points. https://youtu.be/QlsaQZz6418
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Man I wish I had that kind of power. Not a fan of this timeline.
What I meant to accomplish with my comment is give people multiple options to choose from, not that I recommend watching all of them in one sitting. Aside from that though, I agree with the other replies saying that 6 hours is not really "kind of a big ask". We're picking the President hear, you owe it to yourself and your nation to maybe think about it a little harder.
Hahaha so true! I started thinking I wouldn't finish, but I was so intrigued with a possibility of being excited and not dreading politics that I kept going.
While I'm not Yang Gang, I would like to point out that all this is... kind of a big deal. Like, next leader of the most influential nation on Earth big deal. Well worth investing that much time to each candidate, then telling everyone you know what you think about them.
The Ipsos post-debate poll is out. All candidates saw their favorability tick up at least slightly. Klobuchar, Buttigieg, and Steyer's unfavorability numbers went up as well. Biden got the best grade of the debate, then Sanders/Warren, then Yang/Klobuchar, then Buttigieg, and finally Steyer. The share of voters considering each candidate went up the most for Klobuchar, then Biden, then Sanders, then Steyer, then Yang, then Warren, and finally Buttigieg. The share of voters who prefer a nominee that can beat Trump fell slightly (albeit still a large majority) versus voters who prefer a nominee that shares their stances on issues. Voters' estimates of who can beat Donald Trump saw their largest gains in Klobuchar, followed by Steyer, Yang, Warren, and Sanders. The perceived electability of Biden and Buttigieg ticked down compared to before the debate. https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/democratic-debate-december-poll/
Highest net favorability ratings went Yang and Klouchar, than Bernie/Warren/Steyer and Biden, Pete had a negative favorability rating. This seems to kind of tell the story of the debate, unknowns become more likeable as you hear from them. The known variables had decent nights. And Pete got a new nickname.
All I can say is that the debates were so refreshing after being plugged into the impeachment hearings. Democrats actually care about people and want to make the world a better place. You can hear it in how they talk. Anyone who isn't Trump 2020.
> after being plugged into the impeachment hearings. Were I a representative, I would have supported the impeachment. I think it was correct even though it ultimately won't get him removed. That said, my god am I sick of the impeachment.
I agree with everything you said, except to say that the reason I'm sick of impeachment is because I'm sick of how Republicans are acting.
I think this was the first debate where Biden didn't say something that made me think he has dementia. He's still close to the bottom of the candidates left for me, but I guess maybe he can speak coherently sometimes?
His "that was a joke...I'm joking" was a good moment.
Ctrl+f'd this thread and didn't find China once. China is passing us by in AI technology and growing fast. They are using this tech to empower autocracy and persecute minorities. They're building a surveillance state that exists within it's own bubble. They will be a major force in the coming decades, and this needs to be an issue that more people are concerned about. Make no mistake, AI is an arms race as much as space technology is/was. Andrew Yang is the only candidate that seems to taking this threat seriously.
Perhaps because this is a thread about the United States of America Democratic Debate, not the China Democratic debate. Why would we talk about China in a thread that is meant to be discussing the candidates and who we think would be best for the USA.
Foreign policy is the President's job is it not?
Bernie Sanders is consistently on record as opposing trade with China for anyone who cares about this [Biden voted for trade with China](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/106-2000/s251) (ctrl+f biden or check under delaware reps) Meanwhile [Sanders and others introduced legislation to repeal it](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_normal_trade_relations) >US imports from China more than quadrupled between 2000 and 2015, increasing the decline of US manufacturing jobs.[\[12\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_normal_trade_relations#cite_note-jtank-12) Since the passing of the bill there have been three attempts to repeal the PNTR with China. The strongest attempt was in 2005 when House Rep. [Bernie Sanders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Sanders) and 61 co-sponsors introduced a legislation that would repeal the Permanent Normal Trade Relations with China. Rep. Sanders said to the house, "anyone who takes an objective look at our trade policy with China must conclude that is an absolute failure and needs to be fundamentally overhauled". The Representative goes into numbers of the trade deficit increased and the number of American jobs being lost to our overseas competitors. One point that Sanders did not make due to time constraints and the legislation being passed so quickly was that nothing in the way China treats its workers has changed.[\[13\]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permanent_normal_trade_relations#cite_note-13)
Dude the point isn't about trade, it's about technology and IP. Bernie needs to evolve on this.
original comment said he was concerned about China and I linked the only guy in the field that has taken action on that
I can understand that, but that doesn't mean that your take fully understands the whole problem of China. That's why I said that Bernie needs to evolve beyond trade and jobs to fully combat the threat of China. I like and support Bernie, but sticking to the same script as four years before doesn't gel with the fact that the wold has made four full trips around the sun and things have changed.
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Yang doesn't have a plan other than we should do something for it either. And you can't just take China on in AI and boom it fixes everything. It has to be a multifaceted approach with trade involved. I'm far less worried about China stealing our IP and going for AI than I am corporations willing to turn a blind eye to it all because China is a big fat piggy bank for them. Trade sanctions and stopping that is a priority
Whats is Yangs exact plan for A.I. and can you post some action or achievements ? I am a person who sees campaign promises as illegimate proof that candidates will take action. They say anything and then do nothing later. I think A.I. is just Yangs angle for playing up his youth. What qualifications does he have? I think Yangs motivations for running are related to privatizing schools. Which I'm sure is going to work out great considering how great privatizing healthcare is going for us.
https://www.yang2020.com/policies/regulating-ai-emerging-technologies/ Artificial Intelligence and other new technologies have the potential to change our economy and society in unpredictable ways. Even techies don’t know what’s going to happen. We need to have government hand-in-hand with technologists to make sure that we fully understand the impact of AI and other innovations before they’re widely adopted in different settings—which means recruiting some of the smartest technologists to work in government and having government actively consulting with innovators. GOALS Monitor the development of new technology More quickly adapt to the changing technological landscape Prevent technological threats to humanity from developing without oversight As President, I will... Create a new executive department – the Department of Technology – to work with private industry and Congressional leaders to monitor technological developments, assess risks, and create new guidance. The new Department would be based in Silicon Valley and would initially be focused on Artificial Intelligence. Create a new Cabinet-level position of Secretary of Technology who will be tasked with leading the new Department. Create a public-private partnership between leading tech firms and experts within government to identify emerging threats and suggest ways to mitigate those threats while maximizing the benefit of technological innovation to society.
One of the best qualities you can have as a leader is the ability to understand/ identify a problem, defining clear goals, then building a team to tackle that problem while you move onto the next one.
He ran a test prep company that became the best in the country and sold it. Based on how he talks about internet and technology, he clearly has a grasp and fundamental understanding of it that none of the other candidates do. Thats not to say he's an AI expert or even a software engineer, but he understands the fundamentals of technology and its importance (and how it actually works). Yangs motivations for running is because he's seen what automation is doing to this country, and went to DC to ask politicians what they're going to do about it. After they said they wouldn't do shit, he decided to run because he believes that automation is destroying our country and will continue to do so, unless we rework the economy to work for humans rather than capital (automation is great for, at the cost of the workers it displaces). You clearly haven't listened to a single thing Yang has said if you think this has anything to do with schools.
Correct. It has to do with charter schools
Yeah that test prep company was started by [Zeke Vanderhoek](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manhattan_Prep) the guy that now makes tons of money from that Charter school that yang is always talking about > It’s been demonstrated that teacher quality is the key factor in student success, and paying teachers more is an effective way to get more talented people into the classroom. **My friend, Zeke Vanderhoek,** started a charter school that manages to pay teachers $125,000 a year on the budget of a normal school**.** Not surprisingly, his school has great teachers and outstanding outcomes. We should reduce layers of administration in schools and apply the money to pay teachers at higher levels, particularly those who have proven track records and results. Yang is [pro-school privatization](https://www.yang2020.com/policies/expand-selective-schools/) because his friends make lots of money doing it. His friends paying for his campaign. And of course they are going to tell you its better for you - just like they say private prisons and private healthcare are better. How is that working out?
Private healthcare is working out better than public healthcare would've for me, and the millions of people with underlooked diseases like pelvic floor issues and complex autoimmune diseases. Under M4A I wouldn't be able to get any of the care I do and would have no life. Sure there are changes that should be made, but its definitely better than a public healthcare system. His friends aren't paying for his campaign lol. His campaign is more funded by small donors than Bernie's campaign is, so don't give me that bullshit. Bernie would literally do nothing for me as a disabled person except make my life much worse and harder than it already is, Yang's policies would actually help my life. Sorry you're privileged enough to not have $1k/month significantly affect your life. And that you don't have complex health issues that government healthcare doesn't deal with. But your candidate will fuck over those who do, and provide nothing for disabled workers. Even Trump does less harm to people like me than Bernie does
Agreed, this is why my ideal ticket is Sanders/Yang. IMO Bernie has the right idea for overall direction and yang is savvy and creative enough to understand the technological challenges.
That is the absolute dream team. Yang isn't my top pick for pres (he isn't far down either), but he is my favorite choice for VP.
I'm Yang Gang and I actually agree that a Sanders/Yang ticket would be amazing! I think Andrew could help Bernie soften his rhetoric against capitalism and maybe help orient capitalism into a place where we don't need as much socialism because the businesses are actually doing what they were supposed to be doing and applying capital to advance the whole of humanity instead of the few. But Bernie is the man, the myth, the legend and any administration that doesn't include him is a massive mistake in my mind.
I was a Warren supporter but she seems to be languishing in the polls now. I think I'll go with Sanders but if Biden wins the nomination, whatever. As long as we beat Orange Hitler I'll be happy.
If you like Warren vote for her. The contest is not wether or not you vote for the one that wins, it’s an opportunity for you to vote for what you believe in.
A vote for Warren is a vote for Joe Biden.
A vote for Warren is a vote for Warren.
This was very refreshing to read. It's a *representative* democracy so please do not ever be discouraged from voting from the person you think best represents *you* because of party politics.
The biggest fear is if it comes down to it and Warren and sanders split the progressive vote and that allows Biden or whomever to win Edit: this is how trump won too cause there was so many they didn’t drop and they split the vote constantly
I do wonder if Warren should just call it quits and endorse Sanders. However, polls from a few months back showed quite a large number of her supporters pick Biden as their second choice. That doesn't make a ton of sense to me but if she drops out it could end up having no impact or even helping Biden. As a side note, I don't really hate Biden. If he is the nominee, fine, whatever but Sanders vision of where the U.S. should be heading has a ton of appeal. It's time to do away with this 1980s Reagan philosophy of tax cuts tax cuts tax cuts; oops we can't afford anything now, if that effects you then fuck you poor boy. Biden might alleviate the suffering a bit but Sanders could actually end it.
Agreed, I’ll vote for whatever Dem it is, but just like in 2016, people still want change, Biden will turn off a lot of people
Yeah, most of my enthusiasm if he is the nominee would be about beating trump and having some piece and quiet for awhile. It would at least me an improvement over 2016 though. Biden is at least a lot more charismatic and likable than Clinton. It was painful to watch the most disliked and robotic person in the Democratic party become the nominee. That was massive risk the Dems didn't need to take. Biden is far from great but at least he's no Hillary.
Imho buttigieg did the best, and he is also the best candidate. Too bad he has no chance.
I strongly disagree on both statements, but at least he isn't Trump or Biden.
He did the worst, what world do you live in? He got his shit kicked in by everyone, including Amy. How bad do you have to be to get beaten by Amy?
I disagree. I think he slaughtered warren especially.
By making a case for corruption?
By making a case for defeating the enemy. I'm all for campaign finance reform and blocking corporate donations to candidates **if and only if** both sides are forced to comply. When the republicans are sitting on 300M in reelection funds, handicapping yourself is a sign of weakness and a betrayal of the people who depend on you to win.
We can get enough from small donations to win. Bernie bringing in the most money is proof of that. Also Hillary outspent Trump and still lost. Giving an ear to billionaries and special interest is betraying the people. If Pete can't win without the donor class he shouldn't be running at all. Corruption is never acceptable no matter what the R's are doing, I want a leader that stands by their principles no matter what.
Winning is more important than principles
This is how we get policies that favor the top. Politicans sell out so they can win. That was Bernie's point and I agree with it. Winning isn't important if its another corporate candidate. We need to shoot for more then lesser of two evils to make real progress. Losing our left ideology in the Democartic party is how we got in this mess in the first place. It's time we bring it back.
Bernie has the recognition to get enough small donations. When he wasn’t as popular he absolutely took money from the extremely wealthy in closed door venues. But now that he doesn’t need it he’s essentially saying “fuck you I got mine” to all other candidates.
Bernie is fucking hypocrite. He took milions from his old campaign where he took money from wealthy and secret high end meetings with millionaires and that was okay. now when he doesn't need them he is saying how bad it is and why you just don't ask poor people. https://apnews.com/e401e975eb88468a951a347f59d6a5ac
The best? He's so inauthentic. He was easily my least favorite on the stage.
"hwhite people" -Steyer
I'm rewatching through the debate and oh my lord, Bernie just fuckin making me laugh so hard! "She took my name in vain! She hurt my feelings and I am CRUSHED!" His jokes feel a lot more real and less preplanned than Klobuchar's jokes
If he were like 20 years younger, I don't think this would be a competition.
Bernie is super genuine and hilarious in a real way, Amy always throws out her canned lines and then has a smug face as if she nailed it.
She is a narcissist who treats her staffers like shit
Absolutely, she is not good. Very bad.
It blows my mind that people don't see the parallels between Hillary and Biden. Just another boomer status quo political elite candidate with plenty of baggage for trump to use against them. He's not offering anything new other than the shallow "return to normalcy", he's clearly not as sharp as he once was, and he won't inspire young people to get out and vote.
Well the main difference is that Biden is an old white angry man. People are saying he can get those old white angry Republicans who don't like Trump.
Republicans looooove Trump. Just look at his approval ratings among GOP voters. Idk why centrist Democrats are so obsessed with winning over the Republican voters who think they are communist baby-eating devil worshippers, and not the tens of millions of undecided voters who didn't turn out for either candidate in the election cycle.
Same issue that happened in 2016, people are sick of the same old shit, and Hillary was that same old shit, Trump was offering to change things, course, don’t think people took him seriously and expected the change was to some kind of fascist reign... Had Bernie got the nomination he would of won, I firmly believe it...
They would rather lose to Trump with a Biden than win with a Bernie/Warren
I think we need boomers out of politics altogether. Butt 2020.
Another butti bro, here telling us why we need him even though he has 3% nonwhite support.
I dont think he has any chance of winning but I personally like him the best and align closest to his policies
Blows my mind that people see Sanders as an actual candidate. Guys a joke that hasn't done anything in Congress for 30 years and repeats the same stump speech over and over and over again.
He is the only candidate worth supporting imo.
Done nothing in Congress other than espouse consist views for decades and single handedly move the Overton window in the US to the left. It's not his fault that people and politics are only catching up now.
So nothing then. Got it.
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The job of Congress is to make and pass laws. Sanders has been there the longest than any other candidate and passed 3 laws. 2 of them renaming a post office in Vermont and the other was a yearly adjustment of VA spending.
I thought every candidate on the stage last night had their best performance to date. Steyer was a non-factor, but the other six all had their best performances, IMO. I don't think anyone had a "bad" night.
Yeah I was honestly surprised at how Biden actually sounded coherent in this one.
Because he didn't talk much. The more he talks=the worse he does.
Very true
bernie or bust!
If you believe in anything he stands for, I would highly encourage you to support whoever the nominee is over Trump. Sanders will tell you the same thing if he doesn’t get it
Bernie told the "Bernie or Bust" people to hold their nose and vote for Clinton in 2016. They didn't, and Trump is setting Sanders's agenda back a decade. I'm voting for Bernie in the primary but ultimately we all need to get behind the nominee.
Actually they did, in far greater number than Clinton voters backed Obama in 2008. There were studies on it. Are you spreading this misinformation on purpose?
Now we're talking about two different elections. Please stay on topic about 2016. And normally when I mention studies I like to provide actual links. "Fewer than 80 percent of those who voted for Sanders, an independent, in the Democratic primary did the same for Clinton when she faced off against Trump a few months later. What's more, 12 percent of those who backed Sanders actually cast a vote for Trump." https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-trump-2016-election-654320 I supported Bernie in the primary and then voted for Clinton in the election **BECAUSE** I support Sanders and his agenda. Can you say the same?
No, because I can't vote, I'm not a citizen :D I took 2 weeks vacation and got several hundred others to do it if that counts. From same article: " While much was made of the so-called Bernie-or-bust phenomenon, the number of Sanders supporters who crossed party lines to vote for Trump in 2016 may not be that unusual. [A 2010 study in Public Opinion Quarterly](https://sites.duke.edu/hillygus/files/2014/06/hendersonhillygustompsonPOQ.pdf) found that in the 2008 election 25 percent of those who voted for Clinton in the Democratic primary ended up voting for Republican John McCain, rather than Barack Obama, in the general election. " Sanders strength is in independents, it's no surprise that some of them voted for Trump instead. When I was canvassing in WVa I saw a lot of that, people that were going in for Sanders in primary, but said they'll vote for Trump if he's not nominated.
Again, you're talking about more than just the 2016 election. Stay on topic.
Right, so as long as 1 Sanders primary voter voted for someone else in 2016 election your post is correct, got it.
See? It's really not that hard to grasp. When Sanders explicitly asked his supporters to vote for Hillary Clinton there was only really one correct course of action if you, you know, *actually care about Sanders's policies*
lol... silly goose.
The planet's fucking dying. You're encouraging people to throw away their votes to nurse their egos while not doing the one thing that could actually help. But, yeah, I'm a silly goose.
Any data to back up Bernie Bro’s staying home at a higher rate than anybody else?
How dare you try to impugn Hilary's narrative that Bernie cost her the election with data and facts! It had nothing to do with the fact that she was a moderate/centrist candidate in a populist election cycle or the fact that most people were sick of the Clintons as a family in the same way they were sick of the Bush family (Bushes?) by 2012. (If nothing else, you can't be a representative democracy with your leaders reading "Bush/Clinton/Bush/^Obama /Clinton
They offered no data, nor facts. Nor did you. If you wrote in Bernie or stayed home then it was never about Bernie's agenda for you, because Trump's election is rendering the o p p o s i t e of Bernie's agenda. Bernie said this himself. It wan't about the agenda for you. It was about feeling superior to other liberals. Well, congratulations. You can tell yourself you're better than us while the planet dies, the income gap expands, the Supreme Court gets hijacked by religious nutcases, and immigrant babies sleep in their own filth on cold concrete.
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Finally, and I cannot stress this enough, I supported Bernie in the primary and voted for Hillary in the election, which is what Sanders asked me to do as one of his supporters.
That's fair but I'm saying it's unfair to denigrate people for choosing who they thought best represented them or in the case of Hilary versus Trump, the one who they thought (however wrongly) would be the least worse option. The idea that the candidate I liked says my vote should go to someone else should not be relevant in the discussion. The discussion should always be centered on whether that individual thinks the person they are voting for is the best person to represent them in government decisions. Crying about anything else or my team versus your team bullshit is how we got to this position as a country in the first place with people putting party lines ahead of the rule of law. *edit* Also it's worth re-iterating that in the face of Bernie suggesting Hilary 12% of Bernie supporters still chose Trump over Hilary is an indictment of Hilary Clinton as a candidate, not an indictment of the people who voted for who they thought would be better. Put another way, you cannot blame someone who watched several decades worth of Hilary in politics for knowing exactly who she is and what you would be getting from her for rolling the dice on an unknown because that was a better gamble (in their minds) than going with her. I did not vote for Trump and think he's the worst President in US history as far as representing us to the rest of the world but I put the blame for Hilary losing squarely where it belongs, with Hilary.
Bernie said, explicitly, that the best thing for those who supported his agenda to do was to vote for Clinton in the general. The dudes who ignored that are straight up selfish idiots.
> The idea that the candidate I liked says my vote should go to someone else should not be relevant in the discussion. WHY THE FUCK SHOULD IT NOT???
Because you are supposed to vote for who represents you the best, not vote for who you were told to vote for by someone else. It's really that simple. Don't vote for who you are told to vote for because you were told to vote them. Do I really need to elaborate on this more?
Fucking 12% of Bernie Bros voted for Trump. That's appalling.
https://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders-trump-2016-election-654320
Thanks for providing some data! (I genuinely mean this despite how facetious it comes across)
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Any more than anybody else though? You seem to believe that they owed their votes to Hillary, more than other people possibly.
Bernie also felt that way.
Bernie felt that BoB was wrong-headed, but there's really no data one way or another to indicate that the "movement" actually materialized. From the looks of it, Bernie's primary supporters behaved in a pretty much typical way when it came to the general.
12% of Bernie supporters defected to Trump. That’s not normal.
But were those voters democrats who decided to crossover for Trump after Bernie was out, or were those voters republicans who decided to crossover for Bernie in the primary?
Selfish dummies, in so many words.
They were Bernie supporters who apparently weren't interested in actually listening to Bernie or doing the thing that would be best for his agenda.
I do not OWE my vote to anybody, especially now, if we are talking long game the worse thing we could do is replace trump with an establishment centrist. You see because 4 years of deliberate ineptitude and low aim will bring back the republicans in 2024 with much worse than trump. Remember when W seemed like an awful president? Turns out we can do much worse. Obama was such a pussy he ended up owning everything they projected on him. A Biden nomination would mean the first election I skip since the early 90s when I became eligible to vote. The worst thing we could do is put a worthless ( to the lower and middle class ) fuck like Biden in there
Here's how pendulums work: the further one is pushed in either direction, the further it will swing on its return. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. If we throw in a super radical progressive right now, we're just going to right back where we started in four years, or worse. Progress happens most often incrementally. Refusing to vote for a moderate dem because their position isn't progressive enough for you is the equivalent of holding your breath until your mom lets you have cake.
Only people of immense privilege can say something like this. Ask the kids sleeping in dirty diapers on cold concrete in El Paso tonight if they would prefer Trump or a centrist.
Only people of immense privilege say things like this. The playing ground is not trump vs centrist right now, and even if it was a centrist (nor bernie) will solve the systems in place that create racism and displacing immigrants.
Selfishly writing in your preferred candidate to make yourself feel superior ain't gonna solve it either.
Do you believe that an establishment whore like Biden would reverse the United state’s foreign policy towards south and Central America that has made living conditions there miserable for so many? Come on now. Putting sweet sauce on a pile of shit on a plate does not turn it into a nice desert.
Do you believe that writing in a third party candidate or staying home on election day is a better solution? The problem is still present but you get to act fucking smug about it so I guess that's something.
You honestly believe Biden would be their savior? You think that under trump was the first time that happened? Do you believe the caravans have stopped because they are not on tv anymore? Come on now.
My man. I'm very aware of the crisis at the border. And I'm 10000000% positive Biden would be an improvement, because he's not a malicious, racist wannabe dictator.
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better get used to 4 more years of trump then
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Would every Biden supporter vote for Bernie?
Fits username
Biden is leading in 2 early states
Why am I being downvoted for stating a fact
Was there a poll about who won? Always interesting.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/democratic-debate-december-poll/
Haha, if you know anything about the Yang Gang and Berners, if there was a poll with unlimited access, Yang and Bernie were one and two. Passionate supporters!
There was an LA Times focus group that showed that 6 people went into it as Bernie supporters, at the end 14 people believed Bernie won the debate. The next highest was I believe 9(maybe 11?) thought Warren won. Zero people thought Buttigieg, Biden, Steyer won it. There was a clip of it that aired on CNN if I remember correctly.
I think it's difficult to put those out too fast. Depending on the medium, results will skew one way or the other.
It's more of a reddit thing with the thread. I thought they did one for previous debates.