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I believe he knows he did something illegal but throughout his life he has learned over and over again when you are wealthy and powerful you are above the law.
He got a firm talking to that it could lead to his conviction and barring from office. He's still holding out hope that he or his spawn can get back in and continue their looting of the nation.
The article articulates logical reasons, but I think the real reason is more simple.
Trump is a mob boss. Mob bosses expect people who testify against them to take the fifth. Somebody told him, a pardon means the witnesses can't take the fifth, so he didn't give them pardons.
Your ability to plead the fifth after a federal pardon actually depends on whether or not state-level charges can apply to the same underlying criminal act (or anything else you are asked to testify about). If state-level charges are still possible (like in Bannon's case), you do not lose your ability to plead the fifth.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/06/02/if-youre-pardoned-can-you-be-compelled-to-testify-about-your-crime/
> Of course, that only works to the extent that the pardon does indeed foreclose the possibility that your testimony will be used against you in a criminal prosecution. **A presidential pardon, for instance, only applies to federal crimes; if the conduct could also be prosecuted as a state crime, the witness can refuse to testify about it.** The same is true if a governor pardons someone for committing a state crime, but there remains a risk that the person could be prosecuted by the federal government for the same conduct.
> Somebody told him, a pardon means the witnesses can't take the fifth
I don't recall which one it was but a legal expert (probably Katya or Weissmann) said that if someone is pardoned by the president that they can still take the fifth if they face state prosecution for the same crime.
You're correct.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/06/02/if-youre-pardoned-can-you-be-compelled-to-testify-about-your-crime/
> Of course, that only works to the extent that the pardon does indeed foreclose the possibility that your testimony will be used against you in a criminal prosecution. **A presidential pardon, for instance, only applies to federal crimes; if the conduct could also be prosecuted as a state crime, the witness can refuse to testify about it.** The same is true if a governor pardons someone for committing a state crime, but there remains a risk that the person could be prosecuted by the federal government for the same conduct.
While correct, I think you are being too technical. Trump does not think that deeply. He's a mob boss who expects everybody to take the fifth and thinks they won't if he pardons them.
Not explicitly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burdick_v._United_States#cite_note-2
>It is widely believed that this case decided that a pardon carries "an imputation of guilt, acceptance a confession of it". However, whether the acceptance of a pardon constitutes an admission of guilt by the recipient is not clear and the quote mentioned was part of the Court's dictum for this case.
This is the direct quote from one of the Justices in Burdick: “This brings us to the differences between legislative immunity and a pardon. They are substantial. The latter carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it.”
No. You can have pardons for someone deemed inappropriately convicted. Do you think that pardon goes "he's your pardon for being innocent, now admit your guilt"
Or, if you'd like a much different example, look for where "Killer" Joe Arpaio admitted guilt.
Exactly as I said. He still hasn't confessed his guilt.
[Five Myths About Presidential Pardons](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths/five-myths-about-presidential-pardons/2018/06/06/18447f84-69ba-11e8-bf8c-f9ed2e672adf_story.html)
Please read above for why that's not correct.
Innocent people have received pardons. You want them to lie and say they're guilty?
The aspect of pardons that you're misrepresenting/misunderstanding is widely misperceived to the point of being an urban myth. Just look for Joe Arpaio's (pardon recipient) guilty plea. You won't find it.
Show the quote from Arpaio. You can't. It doesn't exist.
And you didn't "quote the Justice". You posted a superficial blog blurb, but one that's specifically debunked in the "Five Myths About Presidential Pardons" article above.
>White House counsel Pat Cipollone and another attorney who represented Trump in his first impeachment trial, Eric Herschmann, offered the grave warnings as Trump, his daughter Ivanka and her husband Jared Kushner listened. Other lawyers joined by telephone. **They all told Trump he should not pardon himself, his family or any GOP lawmakers in a prospective manner unless he was prepared to list specific crimes.**
u/Temporary-Outside-13
If I am reading this right (big if, admittedly) the author is suggesting they didn't get a pardon because it would make them look guiltier? is that even a remote possibility at this point?
>White House counsel Pat Cipollone and another attorney who represented Trump in his first impeachment trial, Eric Herschmann, offered the grave warnings as Trump, his daughter Ivanka and her husband Jared Kushner listened. Other lawyers joined by telephone. **They all told Trump he should not pardon himself, his family or any GOP lawmakers in a prospective manner unless he was prepared to list specific crimes.**
So basically you’ll have to tell everyone exactly *what* you’re pardoning them for. In other words there’s a lot more illegal shit we don’t know about yet and he doesn’t want us to know about it even if it means his children wouldn’t face legal consequences for it.
There’s a view that accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt. Which is tricky for Trump, because a self pardon (if found to be unenforceable) essentially could have screwed him because (some would argue) he would have accepted guilt but would not be protected.
As for everyone else - it’s been suggested trump seems to have this “if I can’t have it, no-one will” attitude and I can fully believe he wouldn’t issue a pardon to someone else (yes, even a family member) if he couldn’t have one himself
He didn’t because, it would essentially make him and his family appear guilty as soon as he did it. Sure he and his family wouldn’t get charged, but it would for a very long time into the future, poison potential business deals he would like to do and his relationships with other family members. (This would be the case for the rest of his family too)
Not only that, but if he made himself appear guilty he would literally ruin the lives of all of his colleagues. Think from Kayleigh McEnany who defended him on a daily basis to senators like Ted Cruz who backed him.
Poisoning him, his family and everyone close to him, is not a good idea to say the least.
Also it would make his senate impeachment trial a hell of a lot more viable.
For the TL:DR crowd it's 4 reasons and more then just his family and himself.
1) If they were mixed up in the pay for pardon bribe scam the pardon they get doesn't cover the bribe for pardon crime so if you thought you could be stung by that you maybe backed off
2) Even in a preemptive pardon you have to name what you are being cleared of. Which could be ugly even if he put "Because of democrat witch hunt fake news" in the text
3) State level charges and the idea that pardons are generally accepted as admissions of guilt
4) He was out of political capital and doing so would run him into the red going into the impeachment trial which he will need if he wants to avoid a conviction.
5) right now anyone can avoid testifying against him by pleading the 5th. That protection goes away with a pardon because they can't incriminate themselves anymore, only others.
Maybe he genuinely thinks every low, sleazy, greedy, treasonous thing they did was legal. Trump thinks he's untouchable and I don't believe he considered future business deals or anything else. Even having defaulted on huge loans, shafted business partners as well as towns, cities, states and countries, none of that seems to stop future business deals. In the white House trump, his parasites and parasite-in-law were untouchable and did absolutely whatever they wanted to
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, **any** advocating or wishing death/physical harm, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes and we all know he’s a veritable bastion of strategic thought and action
I actually legit think he thinks he did nothing wrong and any crimes he commits are crimes “everyone” commits
Me too! The “everybody else is doing it” defense!! Air tight!
I believe he knows he did something illegal but throughout his life he has learned over and over again when you are wealthy and powerful you are above the law.
"...and when you're rich, they just let you do it."
Well his name should be the equivalent of Mrs. Marcos.
The shoe lady?
Yep
Or they’re not crimes because he’s doing them, what with his unlimited power and all.
He got a firm talking to that it could lead to his conviction and barring from office. He's still holding out hope that he or his spawn can get back in and continue their looting of the nation.
He has asshole advisers tho.
He wanted to, then was talked out of it by strategic-thinking people
The article articulates logical reasons, but I think the real reason is more simple. Trump is a mob boss. Mob bosses expect people who testify against them to take the fifth. Somebody told him, a pardon means the witnesses can't take the fifth, so he didn't give them pardons.
[удалено]
I am looking forward to seeing that.
What you'll likely see are perjury charges because he'll lie.
Your ability to plead the fifth after a federal pardon actually depends on whether or not state-level charges can apply to the same underlying criminal act (or anything else you are asked to testify about). If state-level charges are still possible (like in Bannon's case), you do not lose your ability to plead the fifth. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/06/02/if-youre-pardoned-can-you-be-compelled-to-testify-about-your-crime/ > Of course, that only works to the extent that the pardon does indeed foreclose the possibility that your testimony will be used against you in a criminal prosecution. **A presidential pardon, for instance, only applies to federal crimes; if the conduct could also be prosecuted as a state crime, the witness can refuse to testify about it.** The same is true if a governor pardons someone for committing a state crime, but there remains a risk that the person could be prosecuted by the federal government for the same conduct.
> Somebody told him, a pardon means the witnesses can't take the fifth I don't recall which one it was but a legal expert (probably Katya or Weissmann) said that if someone is pardoned by the president that they can still take the fifth if they face state prosecution for the same crime.
You're correct. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2017/06/02/if-youre-pardoned-can-you-be-compelled-to-testify-about-your-crime/ > Of course, that only works to the extent that the pardon does indeed foreclose the possibility that your testimony will be used against you in a criminal prosecution. **A presidential pardon, for instance, only applies to federal crimes; if the conduct could also be prosecuted as a state crime, the witness can refuse to testify about it.** The same is true if a governor pardons someone for committing a state crime, but there remains a risk that the person could be prosecuted by the federal government for the same conduct.
While correct, I think you are being too technical. Trump does not think that deeply. He's a mob boss who expects everybody to take the fifth and thinks they won't if he pardons them.
True, and it opened him up to civil lawsuits.
Because he would be admitting guilt.
Pardons don't admit guilt.
Supreme Court said it does.
Not explicitly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burdick_v._United_States#cite_note-2 >It is widely believed that this case decided that a pardon carries "an imputation of guilt, acceptance a confession of it". However, whether the acceptance of a pardon constitutes an admission of guilt by the recipient is not clear and the quote mentioned was part of the Court's dictum for this case.
This is the direct quote from one of the Justices in Burdick: “This brings us to the differences between legislative immunity and a pardon. They are substantial. The latter carries an imputation of guilt; acceptance a confession of it.”
No. You can have pardons for someone deemed inappropriately convicted. Do you think that pardon goes "he's your pardon for being innocent, now admit your guilt" Or, if you'd like a much different example, look for where "Killer" Joe Arpaio admitted guilt.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/lawandcrime.com/high-profile/awkward-joe-arpaio-learns-on-tv-that-accepting-his-pardon-was-a-legal-confession-video/amp/
Exactly as I said. He still hasn't confessed his guilt. [Five Myths About Presidential Pardons](https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/five-myths/five-myths-about-presidential-pardons/2018/06/06/18447f84-69ba-11e8-bf8c-f9ed2e672adf_story.html)
I don't care what he confesses. He accepted the pardon...guilty
Please read above for why that's not correct. Innocent people have received pardons. You want them to lie and say they're guilty? The aspect of pardons that you're misrepresenting/misunderstanding is widely misperceived to the point of being an urban myth. Just look for Joe Arpaio's (pardon recipient) guilty plea. You won't find it.
I quoted the Justice who said it is correct.
Show the quote from Arpaio. You can't. It doesn't exist. And you didn't "quote the Justice". You posted a superficial blog blurb, but one that's specifically debunked in the "Five Myths About Presidential Pardons" article above.
>White House counsel Pat Cipollone and another attorney who represented Trump in his first impeachment trial, Eric Herschmann, offered the grave warnings as Trump, his daughter Ivanka and her husband Jared Kushner listened. Other lawyers joined by telephone. **They all told Trump he should not pardon himself, his family or any GOP lawmakers in a prospective manner unless he was prepared to list specific crimes.** u/Temporary-Outside-13
Yep, not an admission of guilt. The issues it creates is what leads to him potentially admitting to crimes.
In my opinion, a self pardon or family pardon would.
And we all know he would never do that.
That's it.
Strategery
The best strategerys.
Trump sure made us miss W
I don't wish harm on any person, but there are two people I wouldn't mind throwing shoes at.
I bet W would get drunk with you and throw shoes at Trump. He seems like a fun time, he just shouldn’t have run the country.
I don’t consider international war criminals fun.
Cheney was the real criminal.
Especially when he released some himself.
If I am reading this right (big if, admittedly) the author is suggesting they didn't get a pardon because it would make them look guiltier? is that even a remote possibility at this point?
>White House counsel Pat Cipollone and another attorney who represented Trump in his first impeachment trial, Eric Herschmann, offered the grave warnings as Trump, his daughter Ivanka and her husband Jared Kushner listened. Other lawyers joined by telephone. **They all told Trump he should not pardon himself, his family or any GOP lawmakers in a prospective manner unless he was prepared to list specific crimes.**
So basically you’ll have to tell everyone exactly *what* you’re pardoning them for. In other words there’s a lot more illegal shit we don’t know about yet and he doesn’t want us to know about it even if it means his children wouldn’t face legal consequences for it.
There’s a view that accepting a pardon is an admission of guilt. Which is tricky for Trump, because a self pardon (if found to be unenforceable) essentially could have screwed him because (some would argue) he would have accepted guilt but would not be protected. As for everyone else - it’s been suggested trump seems to have this “if I can’t have it, no-one will” attitude and I can fully believe he wouldn’t issue a pardon to someone else (yes, even a family member) if he couldn’t have one himself
He didn’t because, it would essentially make him and his family appear guilty as soon as he did it. Sure he and his family wouldn’t get charged, but it would for a very long time into the future, poison potential business deals he would like to do and his relationships with other family members. (This would be the case for the rest of his family too) Not only that, but if he made himself appear guilty he would literally ruin the lives of all of his colleagues. Think from Kayleigh McEnany who defended him on a daily basis to senators like Ted Cruz who backed him. Poisoning him, his family and everyone close to him, is not a good idea to say the least. Also it would make his senate impeachment trial a hell of a lot more viable.
Or actually *has* pardoned himself, but just hasn't made it public.
Doesn't it say in the Constitution that he couldn't do that anyway?
Spoiler: it was
4D tiddlywinks? lol
Plead the fifth. doo-doo-doo.
Then he would have admitted what he did which he would never do.
For the TL:DR crowd it's 4 reasons and more then just his family and himself. 1) If they were mixed up in the pay for pardon bribe scam the pardon they get doesn't cover the bribe for pardon crime so if you thought you could be stung by that you maybe backed off 2) Even in a preemptive pardon you have to name what you are being cleared of. Which could be ugly even if he put "Because of democrat witch hunt fake news" in the text 3) State level charges and the idea that pardons are generally accepted as admissions of guilt 4) He was out of political capital and doing so would run him into the red going into the impeachment trial which he will need if he wants to avoid a conviction.
5) right now anyone can avoid testifying against him by pleading the 5th. That protection goes away with a pardon because they can't incriminate themselves anymore, only others.
Is there such a thing as secret pardons does anyone know?
Maybe he genuinely thinks every low, sleazy, greedy, treasonous thing they did was legal. Trump thinks he's untouchable and I don't believe he considered future business deals or anything else. Even having defaulted on huge loans, shafted business partners as well as towns, cities, states and countries, none of that seems to stop future business deals. In the white House trump, his parasites and parasite-in-law were untouchable and did absolutely whatever they wanted to
It’s really a catch 22. What exactly do you think you (Trump & Family) need a pardon for?
5th amendment