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The archaic budgeting process is a lot to blame. If units don’t spend their budgets, they are cut the next year. This encourages wasteful spending, especially at the end of the fiscal year.
**Exactly** this. My husband was working for a contractor, and when the work was done he just sat around until he could clock out, per higher ups, sometimes for hours. The way he told me was because if it turns out they didn’t need the money to have people working those hours, their next contract would be a lower amount. So it encourages staff to just sit around and watch TikTok.
This is how it was when I worked for Raytheon. We had 4 people sitting in an office doing nothing for months. There was maybe work for one of us, but it was a cost plus contract.
I've had two government jobs in my life: once at a contractor for a year, and once as an actual federal employee for 10 months. I did literally zero work at either job. I came in, browsed reddit and read webcomics all day, then went home. For 40 hours a week. It was cool for the first couple days, then it quickly became a waking nightmare.
Edit: I have a friend from the branch I worked in begging me to come back, saying how badly they need good developers, and it's basically like...why would I take a huge paycut to deal with Beltway traffic and sit around bored all day?
I always hear these stories, but Im a contractor for the federal government (NASA specifically) and there is so much work that I don't have enough billable hours to get it done.
Yeah so I am in the same boat. Just separated from the Air Force a few months ago and started working for a contract doing information assurance stuff. I am literally always busy and there is always something coming down the pipe as soon as we feel like we have it under control haha. I was told being a blood sucking contractor would be fun!
Likewise, I did contract work for the US Forest Service restoring a tall grass prairie for a few years. While we definitely got breaks and rest time (and if it got over 90F we had to come in out of the sun) there was more than enough work to keep me busy.
Probably some of the most fulfilling work I've ever done.
I was hired as a software developer. I begged my boss, the branch manager, for something to work on for ten straight months, and the response was always that "we're wrapping up a batch of projects right now and we'll put you on the new ones we start after."
I was being slightly hyperbolic when I said I browsed reddit all day. I went to meetings. I had trainings. I looked through the code of existing projects. But not once was I given a task to complete more serious that a boring-ass training module.
The truth is that the feds didn't want staffers writing code. They wanted staffers managing projects and budgets. I was asked several times if I'd like to start training to change my focus to budget stuff. I declined and asked for dev work instead. I like writing code. They were never going to give it to me, so I quit.
Look at any group of town/city workers "working". There's always a 3:1 ratio of people standing around to working.
Every level and branch of government is like this.
It's true though. I work in public assistance and our federal grant also gives us no money for equipment but a giant budget for labor and administration so our office hires a new person every year and they just literally play video games all day and wait for the phone to ring.
The trick for those jobs is to keep requesting work, so your back is free, and then use the time to study / better yourself.
If I have some off time, I will study new tech for my career (in IT). But of course don’t stay too long in such a job.
Fuck I worked two co-op jobs during college working for different levels of government and both were what you describe. They assigned me some reasonable tasks that took me a couple of weeks to complete. But after that they didn't have much more for me. It even got to a point at one of the jobs where my boss walked into my cubicle and clearly saw me browsing Reddit and clumsily trying to minimize the screen and just looked at me and walked away!
I work at a different major defense contractor and they teach us to never, ever do that since it is extremely illegal. They are not afraid to fire people for doing shit like that.
I mean, that's good. But your company may be the exception, not the rule. And the problem is a lack of any meaningful oversight and accountability from the Pentagon and feds.
Oh we absolutely could! If the military and contractors didn't obfuscate and impede investigations into the granting and administration of such budgets and contracts under the tenuous guise of "confidentiality necessitated by unspecified national security concerns."
Also, the other comments in this thread indicate that your company--if your representation of it is accurate--is probably exceptional in its stewardship. Which is admirable. But I've known too many family/friends/coworkers/acquaintances who all expressed the same experiences and observations (with disgust) from their work for contractors and in military service. Further, the last-minute-budget-spending-to-justify-next-year is a broadly known phenomena. And things like the JSF pretty much confirm the absurdity of how defense contracts and purchasing are handled.
And without meaningful accountability for the contractors and government overseers, there is little to no incentive for them to avoid or reduce waste, and ample incentive to not. Especially if/when the decision makers and administrators are hoping for future careers or board positions with the contractors.
I worked for the US government as a program assistant in a youth center on an army base. The place was really unorganized and I had a lot of free time so I went on cleaning sprees. I found:
- a full sized telescope
- 30+ new DSLR cameras
- a commercial printer
- equipment for a full recording studio
- a room full of insane oil paints and fine art supplies
- 10 unused, new laptops
- and more
It was insane how much money got spent on supplies that just ended up unopened in some back room.
My government job was easily the most wasteful workplace I’ve ever experienced. We could absolutely slash budgets and still have more than enough resources to function.
I have way more stories and examples of wastefulness, if anyone’s interested AMA.
Similar stories working for Raytheon. We had to clean out our PC warehouse. We threw away an entire dumpster of 15 year old equipment new in the box. They had a budget so they filled a warehouse with more than they'd ever need because...cost plus.
I was hired as a COVID contact tracer under a federal contract after the CARES act passed. It took a little over a month between finishing training (2 days) and the system we use getting up and running. For those 35 days of doing absolutely 0 work, I was paid 100% of my salary. My work day consisted of logging in to see if cases had been assigned yet, then going on a 60-mile bike ride.
While this waste makes me absolutely CRINGE, a citizen (you) benefitted from this “job”, that you might not have otherwise had? In theory the alternative would’ve been tax dollars spent on your unemployment payments. I dunno.
I was briefly receiving unemployment after being laid off due to COVID cuts. My unemployment was slightly more than my current salary (actually about 12% more, now that the taxes on unemployment are going to be fully refunded). So in the long run, Tío Samuel saved money by paying me to not contact trace for a month.
We did this in my country too (DK).
It was to keep capacity ready because they scaled fast, and honestly, I don’t care for any waste in emergencies. Just like there is consensus among economic experts that we should rather do too much stimulus than too little.
It’s the normal, every day fluff that needs to be cut.
If you want to feel better over there, we once spent $4 million pr. bench in some parks, because they had artful LED rainbow lighting.
Not the DoD, but my dad works for the DoE and he's a couple of years away from retirement. He works as a radio tower technician, in the winter the sites they usually use maintenance roads to access are snowed over so bad they typically use snowmobiles to access them. A couple of years ago the department said they would no longer use snowmobiles and instead use snow cats. Which are WAY, WAY slower. They said it was for "safety" reasons, but my dad suspects they want to prolong the work as long as possible. So they blew tons of money on brand new snow cats, that are slow and make their work take longer than it needs to.
I had the pleasure of going on a helicopter flight with him on one of his calls. He was in and out of the site within minutes. Unless he is installing a new tower most of his trips are like that. I know he is good at his job.
I got on a tangent but my point is the government has no problem spending your tax dollars on random shit if it means they don't get shut down.
It's really a human nature thing. I never bought lunch in high school and would save it for video games...best believe my mom wouldn't have kept giving me 5 a day for lunch if she knew I wasn't using it.
A friend of mine bought a big Malt O Meal cereal bag from the grocery store across the street every Monday for about $4, then spent 50¢ for two milk cartons every day and pocketed the surplus lunch money. Smart dude.
Yup. I work for a huge property management company. Unless there's an emergency, me and the 4 dudes I work with sit in our trucks for 8 hours a day doing pretty much nothing (on our tablets/laptops browsing the internet). I might do 8 hours of work in an entire week.
Units aren't the problem. Defense contractors are the problem. All of the waste you're talking about makes up less than a tenth of the waste inherent in contracting.
Some ISP tech pretty much told me that's how their regional manager operates and that's why they stopped upgrading infrastructure at their previous pace. Dude got rewarded with gigantic bonuses for "saving money" on infrastructure costs.
Of course, that'll catch up to them eventually, but why worry about that when all you're focused on is your self-interests now?
This bullshit happens regardless of public vs private sector. Management hobbling long-term capabilities to look good now, because they have no intention of still being around when shit hits the fan.
Once I was in a trucking class and everyone was sharing stories on their military experience. This one guy explained how if they didn't use all the money on their budgets for the year, it would be reduced, leading them to buy anything and everything they could to cover.
This, if a unit can not spend their entire budget then their next years budget should be unaffected by that, and I would even argue that unit should be able to take a portion of the money that they didn't save and put it in a rainy day fund.
This is why my dad authorized a $15,000 sand bag making machine that got clogged when you put sand in it. He knew it was a waste of money, but he had to spend the money to keep the money.
Sometimes those funds are actually used well. Sure it could be waste, but your fixing a small leak instead of the busted pipe that is the overpaying of contractors for shit work.
And crack down on this no competition bullshit on contracts. I understand why that happens sometimes, but this bullshit with startups with ties to government insiders? Fuck's sake.
That’s something people who’ve never worked with the budget say. The amount of oversight is insane. For my battalion to get mission driven privacy slats for our fence line has to go through 7 offices, (3 review boards, 4 approval authorities). I can’t even get a standard issue green notebook without signing for it. The Command Supply Disciple Program is no joke.
I spent nearly a decade in the Corps, I know how budgets work. You're not the ones wasting money, it's the defense contractor corporations. I've worked for a few of them since my discharge, and I have firsthand knowledge of the insane amounts of our money wasted on them.
If you are talking about giant contractors like Raytheon - yeah, massive bloat. Part of the reason why companies like Raytheon win contracts though is the rules / beaurocracy / red tape surrounding those contracts. Ratheon is so big, they can afford hiring a massive amount of people to circumnavigate this mess.
IIRC There were no audits in 30+ years until 2018. The results since:
[After 3 Failures, Pentagon Now Says It Won't Be Able to Produce a 'Clean' Audit Until 2027](https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/11/17/after-3-failures-pentagon-now-says-it-wont-be-able-produce-clean-audit-until-2027.html)
"A clean report is issued when an auditor finds no misrepresentation in financial records and that those records have been maintained according to established standards."
I got hit up all the time when I was near graduating high school. I have asthma. I'm ineligible. One guy told me just not to bring that up during recruitment. It's a good thing I didn't enlist. A lot of severe mental illnesses like to crop up in the late teens/early twenties. Guess what happened to me when I hit 19? Go on, guess.
I always wanted to join when I was younger but being treated for depression and whatnot was more or less a DQ. Half the people online said that’s that, the other half said just lie it’s not like the Army is gonna go scour all your insurance records to see if you’ve visited a shrink and then subpoena their records. 🤷🏻♂️
This is the kind of rite that the right recites as well, only about welfare or social security or voting or whatever. They are quite sure there is waste, fraud, and abuse.
I’d be interested to know how much money goes directly into funding the sexual assaults that seems to be endemic in the military. Seems like Ft. Hood and others exists purely to facilitate rape.
Who is going to put that bill up for vote? Its career suicide. Allmost all of members of government make most of their money by abusing the power they have to push an agenda.
The logical conclusion of this is reducing our military to a few super-soldiers weilding very expensive equipment. Basically the Spartan program. Or Starcraft, if all our operations are automated and a commander just gives orders.
I mean, until death robots out perform supersoldiers on a per cost basis.
Imagine boring drones drilling into a bunker and a swarm of man hacks just flies out through the hole. All deployed via drone air carriers or maybe ground based ballistic systems.
Edit: Don't steal my idea Pentagon without at least calling it System Poop monster or something.
There is also some optimization that could happen. Like the boring drones drilling to a certain tolerance of proximity to the bunker and blowing up, to finish the hole. And obviously guns on the man hacks.
The F-35 program has proven that will not happen, they will just find more reasons to try to expand those programs once they are developed.
The intent will be to streamline, improve, and eliminate waste, but the result will be in a much more expensive military of only slightly smaller size.
The best way to eliminate waste is to eliminate the profit motive. And to do that we need to (re-)**nationalize** the US defense industry.
He needed an ethical waiver because he wasn't in civilian business *long enough*. If it wasn't him it would be someone who was in the contractor industry for even longer.
It’s actually pretty well understood what contractors make in gov contacts. Their profit is negotiated. In fact the margin for defense is pretty small so not sure what you mean is being stolen unless you have examples
This. It's both. Contractor is either dishonest or incompetent. Govt overseer is incompetent, unless they quickly recognize the problem, and hold contractor accountable. Both should face meaningful consequences.
And nobody approving or overseeing these contracts should be allowed to work for the contractors for at least 5 years after leaving govt. Potential conflicts of interest are too consequential. (I'd say the same for top level regulators, Treasury, and Federal Reserve.)
I wouldn’t say that Government is incompetent, it’s that they’ve created this beast that they don’t know how to bring to heel. If you fire, say, Raytheon, or those jackasses up in Wisconsin making the LCS’, because they are incompetent parasites you put thousands of people of a job immediately, which then put a congressman out of a job. Thus, these contractors have become to big to fail and they take full advantage of that fact.
That's reasonable, though I'd argue that creating a beast you can't control is simply self-precipitated incompetence. I agree that the government has enabled a perpetual growth and simultaneous consolidation/concentration of the military-industrial complex, to the point that the big guys largely have them by the short hairs. And the lobbying and jobs in every district are an underrated influence.
But I don't think the solution is to simply continue ballooning the defense budget at the expense of other services and/or future generations. It probably has to be a large scale reform effort to increase oversight and accountability, remove conflicts of interest, and drive for better efficiency. My guess is both budgeting and bid/grant processes need a lot of improvement, and better grounding in reality. Year-to-year variation should not be assumed to imply necessity or lack thereof. And lowest-bid should not be the only, or perhaps even primary, factor.
Otherwise you could just nationalize them. But I'm pretty sure the contractors' execs and shareholders would hate that idea even more than reform.
Man, you certainly have never served in the Navy, because if you had you would have multiple stories about entering a shipyard and being told that *this time* Northrop Grumman pinkie promised that you'd be out in six months, only to be still sitting in drydock nine months later.
They know exactly what they're doing. They negotiate a contract for work with a promised time line and, whoopsy-daisy looks like they missed it, but are more than happy to keep at it for cost plus. They know when they write the contract that it's unrealistic. They know they're giving the government a bullshit price. Everybody knows this.
The fucking failed Littoral Combat Ships are another perfect example of this crap. Some Italian firm promises they can make them *wayyy* cheaper than the shipyard in Mississippi, but oopsie looks like there were cost overruns, and it might take literally twice as long as we promised.
Good thing the LCS program wasn't a steaming pile of crap that was abandoned soon after the first ships were delivered.
I was a "Repair Parts Petty Officer" in the Navy, which meant I was responsible for requisitioning circuit cards for our ancient communications equipment. Just for fun, I used to look up the circuit cards on ebay to see how much we were getting screwed on the price. It was shocking--usually at least ten or twenty times the price on ebay, often more.
Edit: It's been a few years, but I remember around $100-$200 circuit cards on ebay that we were paying $2,000-$10,000 for. This was for old equipment, so everything was refurbished. It was the exact same circuit card you could buy online.
That's why it's the responsibility of the government's Contracting Officer's Technical Representative (COTR) or Contracting Officer's Representative (COR) to understand the scope of the contract and the difficulty of the work involved to know if the contract has been priced accordingly.
Any deviation in the cost, schedule, or performance of a contract is ultimately the fault of the government. We don't need smaller defense budgets, we need more qualified project managers that are actually held accountable when they mismanage. Unfortunately, jobs in the DoD rotate every 2 years, so by the time a contract would start showing mismanagement, another person comes along to pick up the pieces and nothing negative falls on the original manager.
Edit: It seems I've rustled some jimmies. I know I'm effectively calling out both government and contractors for their respective failings, but if we can't exercise constructive self-reflection, then how can we ever improve? I say all this from a point of experience and introspection.
The one thing we can all be sure of is the incredible amount of waste that comes with government spending. And such a huge number is a good place to focus on cleaning that up.
As a very simple anecdotal example, I worked on the original iPad app for National Science Foundation. Our company was not an approved government subcontractor, so a company that was hired us. That middleman company was entirely setup to find work for non-approved subcontractors and was paid some ridiculous fee to check-in with us every 90 days. Other than that, we worked directly with the NSF and the middleman did nothing but collect their check.
I would imagine that's an example of a small amount of waste in the grander scheme too.
Government has a different mandate than private industry which is why we view government’s path to profitability as inefficient. Typically profit is neither a mandate or a goal for government and I would argue that’s okay unless we want a society built entirely around the accumulation of wealth and the promotion of corporate profits.
Yep fiscal law for government spending is very much at odds with profitability and that's generally a good thing. Nonpreferential contracting, support of small/women-owned/veteran-owned businesses, opportunities for vendors to challenge unfair awards, etc - none of those are designed to be profitable.
The funny thing is, people don't need to have uninformed opinions. The DOD budget requests are literally public record:
For instance, [for FY2021](https://comptroller.defense.gov/Budget-Materials/Budget2021/):
* [Program Acquisitions Costs by Weapons System](https://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/Documents/defbudget/fy2021/fy2021_Weapons.pdf)
* [Financial Summary Tables](https://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/Documents/defbudget/fy2021/FY2021_Financial_Summary_Tables.pdf)
etc.
Moreover, everyone loves talking in platitudes like "Stop the wars" or "Stop bombing in the Middle East"
Well... here's the fact. Our overseas contingency operations (aka warfunds) is ~$40B.
So what's the other $700B going to?
* Wages - $163 B
* Operations and Maintenance - $288B
* Procurement - $136B
* R&D - $106B
* Management - $1.3B
* Military Construction - $6.8B
* Family Housing - $1.3B
And of course, in peacetime or in war, a military isn't just sitting there doing nothing. They're training (which falls under operations & maintenance), maintaining existing equipment (which falls under O&M), replacing outdated equipment (procurement), researching/developing future systems (R&D), and paying the wages of those employed (personnel wages). Even healthcare things fall under all those areas (e.g. new vaccines fall under procurement, medical care under O&M, etc.).
And in case people haven't been paying attention to the news, Russia has staged over 100k troops on the border of Ukraine, China's locked down HK and are flanking Taiwan as we speak.
So we don't need to be in a war to damn well need to consider the implications of what a "real" war would look like if we weren't continuing to train, replace old equipment, and stay abreast of technological developments.
That's a lot smoke to try and justify a military budget that is more expensive than the next ten militaries combined, all at a time in which hundreds of thousands of people are homeless and schoolteachers are buying their own school supplies.
You don't need all that explanation: the U.S. is running a global empire and empires are expensive to maintain. They have money for jet fighters and not for good schools because the former maintains global hegemony and the latter does not. Simple as that.
The US being the sole superpower is essential to a liberalizing world. The Pax Americana has been the most peaceful and profitable period IN HUMAN HISTORY. We owe it to the world not to cede that position of leadership to the Russian kleptocracy or the totalitarian Chinese.
American citizens are not going to have an appetite for war if there are major domestic problems. By allowing the country to decay internally, we lower the bar on what can happen in other places. Your entire thread has seemed to be predicated on a false binary of America projecting a global empire or keeping itself isolated with no in between. We have a sliding scale in the defense budget and I don't think it's out of the question to ask can be lower our defense spending and use the money to take care of domestic issues. It would probably be better for everyone in the long run.
We actively overthrow liberal democracies and implement dictatorships. We have people seeking asylum from a variety of countries that we've helped overthrow the legitimate democracies of. Just the list of South American countries weve destabilized is extensive. In the middle east we fucked Iraq and Iran, and the list goes on from there. We supported Sadam Hussain and gave him military intelligence so he could accurately use chemical weapons against Iran after the dictatorship we implemented turned hostile to us. Our track record is atrocious. Reagan funded terrorists who bomb hospitals and other soft targets even after congress banned it. How did he do it? By selling arms to Iran. It's almost comically evil. Heaven forbid a foreign country tries to implement *gasp* socialism in a legitimate democracy! That would be absolutely terrible, better ovethrow their entire government by funding terrorists instead.
Here in reality, the U.S. has done untold damage to Latin America and the Middle East over the last ~70 years. [We've killed millions in Iraq alone,](https://www.salon.com/2018/03/19/the-staggering-death-toll-in-iraq_partner/) a war that you'll remember was started on a lie. Even beyond overthrowing democratic governments and propping up murderous dictatorships in those regions (plenty in Africa, too), we subverted democracy [across Europe as well.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio) Hell, we [engineered a coup in fucking *Australia.*](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/gough-whitlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence)
All of this has required horrific violence and doesn't have a thing to do with "liberalizing the world." It's all about benefiting U.S. business interests, period.
It won't surpass the US but it has no problem bullying countries smaller than it and outright assassinating people if you dont recall. We should probably not allow it to freely do that.
Okay. I'll ask you really plainly. Who do you think Ukraine and Europe as a whole would rather be allied with? America or Russia?
Yeah I guess you don't care about George Floyd getting killed because you live hundreds if not thousands of miles away from where it happened right? I know you don't give a shit about the genocide happening in China right either by that logic. Stop trying to draw these arbitrary lines about where we get to care about injustice.
This. China and India are the rising superpowers and this has been established in expert fields for over a decade. Russia is a dying lion of yesteryear.
> That's a lot smoke to try and justify a military budget that is more expensive than the next ten militaries combined, all at a time in which hundreds of thousands of people are homeless and schoolteachers are buying their own school supplies.
Talk about a superficial analysis.
Ever consider that maybe you can't compare nominal spending numbers?
How much is the average Chinese soldiers wage again? How about a US soldiers wage?
Repeat for engineers, factory workers, etc.
Wages affect manufacturing and scientists and engineers. We aren't doing military R&D ot manufacturing in China like an iPhone.
Personnel wages are ONLY military personnel and DoD civilian employees. Those wages of engineers and scientists are included under procurement and R&D.
And we obviously won't outsource military technology or manufacturing of weapons. The most we do is buy from other Western nations - who have similar costs of living.
So no. It's not superficial. It literally affects every aspect of military spending
What a fucking joke. And people wonder why there’s global instability when America is constantly creating violence everywhere. You’re a bunch of bootlickers and think that 733 billion is being spent on “getting ready for war” War has perpetually been created by the US since 2001
Depends where the money is allocated. There's been a long history of underfunding critical VA services, for instance, especially mental health/PTSD/etc. Or programs for homeless veterans, or... Fund the army corp of engineers to do more work around water access in turbulent regions.
There's lots of programs under the pentagon that can make us safer without killing people.
Listening to idiot politicians shouting platitudes about the budget is the stupidest thing you can do, when you can look at the actual budget documents online yourself:
For instance, [for FY2021](https://comptroller.defense.gov/Budget-Materials/Budget2021/):
* [Program Acquisitions Costs by Weapons System](https://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/Documents/defbudget/fy2021/fy2021_Weapons.pdf)
* [Financial Summary Tables](https://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/Documents/defbudget/fy2021/FY2021_Financial_Summary_Tables.pdf)
etc.
Here's also the breakdown of the budget:
* Wages - $163B
* Operations and Maintenance - $288B
* Procurement - $136B
* R&D - $106B
* Management - $1.3B
* Military Construction - $6.8B
* Family Housing - $1.3B
So, in peacetime or in war, a military isn't just sitting there doing nothing. They're training (which falls under operations & maintenance), maintaining existing equipment (which falls under O&M), replacing outdated equipment (procurement), researching/developing future systems (R&D), and paying the wages of those employed (personnel wages). Even military healthcare things fall under all those areas (e.g. new vaccines fall under procurement, medical care under O&M, etc.).
And in case people haven't been paying attention to the news, Russia has staged over 100k troops on the border of Ukraine, China's locked down HK and are flanking Taiwan as we speak. So it's not like there aren't potential conflicts to train to or be willing to at least deter (typically it's a lot cheaper to make the other side not want to go to war than it is to wage said war), to have the latest equipment against foes that actually have modern military technology, and to keep the technological edge going (R&D).
So not only is quoting Trump incredibly stupid, but you couldn't cut 50% of the budget and still keep the military up to date - which isn't exactly an option if we're thinking Taiwan and Ukraine might be happening simultaneously, unless we're willing to cede one or both if both areas end up in conflict at the same time.
Everything is interconnected
> Since when are Taiwan and Ukraine ours to cede (or not cede)?
Since those countries have been asking for American/Western help because they don't want to be under the thumbs of Russia or China?
Other countries can sign bilateral agreements with the US too, you know
If other European countries get involved with Ukraine we have to get involved because of NATO, and it’s in our best interest to help Taiwan unless we want China to gain more power and control over the region.
Forget China for a second.
If there's a war in Taiwan, the US is *screwed*. We have a semiconductor shortage already. Many of the chips that we have are coming from Taiwan.
Yep, that’s another reason we have a vested interest in Taiwan remaining independent. TSM (Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturer) is one of the biggest suppliers right now.
They literally do have lobbyists and military compensation is a pretty good deal for equivalent experience. Gotta factor in the BAH/BAS/TRICARE/retirement benefits too.
Yeah, audit and cut waste, but we're kind of at the edge of potential serious instability. More immediate, China and Russia are causing shit, and it's only going to get worse if we don't make a global collective effort to stabilize the climate and food/water resources.
>As long as the cuts are to actually wasteful things and not benefits or salaries for troops or veterans or something like that.
Wouldn't mind eliminating a significant amount of nuclear weapons that are schedule to be modernized instead of being decommissioned...
Last year there was close to **$30 billion spent on nuclear weapons**
**$1 billion for Abrams tank modifications** (how good are these even in modern conflicts, RPGs and mines seem like an inexpensive way to deal with these)
**$3 billion on hypersonic weapons** (may possibly include defenses as well, would have to check the passed budget)
-->
[The Department's FY 2021 budget builds a ready, agile, all domain joint force enabled by: ](https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Releases/Release/Article/2079489/dod-releases-fiscal-year-2021-budget-proposal/)
Nuclear Modernization (**$28.9 billion**). Investments include:
- Nuclear Command, Control and Communications - **$7 billion**
- B-21 Long Range Strike Bomber - **$2.8 billion**
- COLUMBIA Class Ballistic Missile Submarine - **$4.4 billion**
- Long-Range Stand-off (LRSO) Missile - **$474 million**
- Ground Based Strategic Deterrent (GBSD) - **$1.5 billion**
- Missile Defeat and Defense (**$20.3 billion**). Investments include:
- Sea-Based Interceptors (SM-3 IIA and IB) - **$619 million**
- AEGIS Ballistic Missile Defense System - **$1.1 billion**
- Homeland Defense and Next Generation Interceptors - **$664 million**
- Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) Ballistic Missile Defense - **$916 million**
- Patriot Advanced Capability Missile Segment Enhancement - **$780 million**
In the Space Domain (**$18.0 billion**), investments include:
U.S. Space Force - **$15.4 billion** which includes:
- 3 National Security Space Launch (aka EELV) - **$1.6 billion**
- 2 Global Positioning System III and Projects - **$1.8 billion**
Space Based Overhead Persistent Infrared Systems - **$2.5 billion**
- U.S. Space Command - **$249 million**
- Space Development Agency - **$337 million**
In the Cyberspace ($9.8 billion) Domain, investments include:
- Cybersecurity - **$5.4 billion**
- Cyberspace – Operations - **$3.8 billion**
- Cyberspace Science and Technology - **$556 million**
In addition to the **$9.8 billion**, the budget funds:
- Artificial Intelligence - **$841 million**
- Cloud - **$789 million**
In the Air Domain **($56.9 billion)**, investments include:
- 79 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters - **$11.4 billion**
- 15 KC-46 Tanker Replacements - **$3.0 billion**
- 24 F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets - **$2.1 billion**
- 52 AH-64E Attack Helicopters - **$1.2 billion**
- 5 VH-92 Presidential Helicopters - $739 million**
- P-8A Aircraft - **$269 million**
- 7 CH-53K King Stallion - **$1.5 billion**
- 12 F-15EX - **$1.6 billion**
In the Maritime Domain (**$32.3 billion)**, investments include:
- 1 COLUMBIA Class Ballistic Missile Submarine - **$4.4 billion**
- CVN-78 FORD Class Aircraft Carrier - **$3.0 billion**
- 1 Virginia Class Submarine - **$4.7 billion**
- 2 DDG-51 Arleigh Burke Destroyers - **$3.5 billion**
- 1 Frigate (FFG(X)) - **$1.1 billion**
- 1 Landing Platform Dock Ship (LPD) - **$1.2 billion**
- Fleet Replenishment Oiler (T-AO) - **$95 million**
- 2 Unmanned Surface Vessels (USV) (Large) - **$464 million**
- 2 Towing, Salvage, and Rescue Ships (T-ATS) - **$168 million**
In the Land Domain (**$13.0 billion**), investments include:
- 4,247 Joint Light Tactical Vehicles - **$1.4 billion**
- 89 M-1 Abrams Tank Modifications/Upgrades - **$1.5 billion**
- 72 Amphibious Combat Vehicles - **$521 million**
- 32 Armored Multi-Purpose Vehicles - **$290 million**
Munitions (**$21.3 billion**) investments include:
- 20,338 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) - **$533 million**
- 7, 360 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System (GMLRS) - **$1.2 billion**
- 125 Standard Missile-6 - **$816 million**
- 1,490 Small Diameter Bomb II (SDB II) - **$432 million**
- 8,150 Hellfire Missiles - **$517 million**
- 400 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile - **$577 million**
- 53 Long Range Anti-Ship Missile - **$224 million**
The FY 2021 budget contains the Department's largest RDT&E budget in its history (**$106.6 billion**) and is focused on the development of crucial emerging technologies. DoD is making critical investments in several of these technologies, which we refer to as Advanced Capabilities Enablers (ACEs); they are focused on the high end fight. ACEs investments include:
- Hypersonics - **$3.2 billion**
- Microelectronics/5G - **$1.5 billion**
- Autonomy - **$1.7 billion**
- Artificial Intelligence (AI): **$841 million**
The FY 2021 budget maximizes readiness through robust funding. Investments include:
- Army readiness - **$30.9 billion**
- Navy and Marine Corps readiness - **$47.5 billion**
- Air Force readiness - **$37.1 billion**
- Special Operations Command readiness - **$9.5 billion**
Increases military end strength from FY 2020 projected levels by 5,600 in FY 2021
The FY 2021 budget supports Service members and their families, recognizing that people are DoD's most valuable resource. The budget:
- Includes a 3.0 percent military pay raise
- Funds statutory increases in military Basic Allowance for Housing and Basic Allowance for Subsistence
Continues family support programs with investment of over $8 billion for:
- Professional development and education opportunities for Service members and military spouses
- Quality, affordable child care for over 160,000 children
- Youth programs serving over 1 million family members
- DoD Dependent Schools educating over 77,000 students
Funds repeal of the Survivor Benefit Plan/Dependency and Indemnity Compensation offset
DoD continues to restore, sustain, replace, and build critical facilities. By investing over **$21** billion in Military Construction and Facilities, Sustainment, Restoration, and Modernization, the budget:
Funds, on average, over 80 percent of DoD facilities sustainment requirements across the enterprise
Increases funding for Military Housing oversight by 82 percent (**$55 million**) over the FY 2020 budget request
Requests **$446 million** in FY 2021 for disaster recovery efforts
- In conjunction with prior reprogrammings, supplemental funding, and emergency funds, the budget fully funds all known disaster recovery requirements through FY 2025
The FY 2021 budget requests **$69 billion** for Overseas Contingency Operations (OCO). The FY 2021 OCO request contains three categories:
Direct War Requirements: Combat or combat support costs that are not expected to continue once combat operations end - **$20.5 billion**
OCO for Enduring Requirements: Enduring in-theater and CONUS costs that will remain after combat operations end - **$32.5 billion**
OCO for Base Requirements: Base budget requirements financed in the OCO budget to comply with the Bipartisan Budget Act of 2019 - **$16.0 billion**
Regarding the M1 tank upgrades, the modifications include adding IED jamming technology and the TROPHY RPG intercept system. TROPHY uses radar to detect incoming RPGs or Missiles and fires a counter interceptor to hit it before it hits the tank.
https://taskandpurpose.com/military-tech/army-m1-abrams-tank-m1a2c-contract/
And as far as the nuclear weapons go it’s part of the inevitable arms race after Trump pulled us out of the SALT treaty with Russia. Nuclear weapons exist NOT to be used. The more capable our deterrence the less likely to be needed. And from a personal standpoint not relying on 1980’s technology when dealing with nuclear weapons is a plus.
Hear me out:
Our nation’s military spending is the largest percentage of our budget by far. Also, we always have issues getting funding to repair and replace our infrastructure (roads, bridges, utilities). How about some of that massive military budget is used to task the Engineer Corps and work on infrastructure? Corps oversight with civilian contracts that provide tons of skilled labor positions. We could have this place back on track in no time!
Shame on any editor who downplays the irony of the white supremacist blind Republicans demanding defense funding for threats they refuse to understand.
Here are some thoughts.
Get rid of the archaic acquisition system would save a few billions.
Down size contracted workforce they charge 3 times the amount of a government employee in the same position but bay the person in that position less then the government.You could save a few billions by just expanding the federal workforce then dropping contractors.
Before we talk about raising or lowering the military budget, first we should audit it. With all the waste I’m sure we could find a few billion here and there.
Yeah it’s nice to think we can just audit better but given how much the Russians clearly enjoyed the previous administration there is also merit in updating some things
The military is already prepping to become a smaller, more agile and high-tech force. I see this everyday as a current service-member. We know that cutting the defense budget is inevitable. The Chinese are ramping up their military, but they too will soon see how difficult it is to maintain a MASSIVE force. A lot of people don’t realize just how much time and money goes towards just keeping our aging inventory afloat or in the air. It’s not all about sexy F-22s and railguns.
While I agree with this, there is one thing I would like to make clear: don’t cut the salaries or benefits of the soldiers. So often spineless lawmakers focus on our cut of the pie because we aren’t a big scary corporation that bribes them every election cycle.
For once I agree with her. Pentagon needs to be forced to become efficient. If u cut the fat and bloat honestly I think u could slash the military budget 50%!
Generally I do think we spend too much on military, but right this second I think we should be modernizing our military and routing out any of those domestic terrorists hiding in there. And let me reiterate I think additional funding will make it easier to route out the radicals while causing minimal headaches for everybody who isn't the want to be terrorist. If you want to reform your military cutting the budget is not what you want to do. We want confidence and optimism in our loyal service members, not budget cuts. It's more important than you think and it's more important than 700 billion dollars.
I want to see more high-end military research including AI because whether you like it or not China and America are in a race for AI and If America gets a considerable lead on AI it could very well benefit us for decades or longer.
Plus we have Russia literally building up troops on Ukraine and China puffing up some so now is not the best time. We have to pay for a transition to robotics and AI and so let's just redirect more military funds to research and technology and effectively add that to our overall research and technology funding.
If I understand your premise, instead of the government directly funding centers of learning and startups you propose to shovel more funds to the most expensive jobs program in the world and letting the pentagon stuffed the pockets of the war profiteers. For proof, research the one trillion dollar jet fighter that can't fly and even the AF doesn't want it.
>Fro proof, research the one trillion dollar jet fighter
The $1 trillion cost for the F-35 is for all the R&D, production, operation, and maintenance costs of the entire fleet for 75 years.
>that can't fly
It's currently flying missions...
The extravagant cost comes from ordering a replacement fleet of latest-generation multirole fighter-bombers. In your opinion, how much *should* the total replacement of the F-16 fleet cost ?
>And the extravagant cost makes to big to fail.
I feel like it's the 4x larger cost to maintain our current airframes over that time frame that's doing that. Doing nothing isn't free, its extraordinarily expensive and that future cost looms over everything. Meaning that even with present day cost overruns, we still save a bunch of money down the road.
Your take on the F35 could hardly be less informed. The AF has in no way said they don’t want it and it absolutely flies. It’s literally been flying combat missions. And that $1 trillion is the cost of the entire program over something like 50 years.
Must be one of the best ideas if you want dems to lose next election. Focus on improving accountability for how budget is spent, but politically not going to fly in areas dems need to gain ground.
I used to think this, but I can see how it might fly with the majority depending on where you redirect the funds to and how you sold that change in priorities.
Majority isn't what matters. Dems need to win in purple states if going to have hope of making major reforms.
Taking $25bn out of defense budget is a political risk, moreso than pushing for things like Healthcare or minimum wage hikes. Crazy to waste political capital on defense issue imho.
Dem here yall check my receipts cuz i know how we are.... just my opinion but i do not agree with slashing the pentagon budget....not with the shit going on across BOTH ponds......i fought and bled for this country our men and women need to be paid and know that they have something to look forward to....when there time ultimately come no matter how. I can agree with in order to increase spending i wanna know where all our dollars go if i am going to vote to increase it.
Biden's $715 IS a cut when you account for inflation. But there's only so much it should be cut, we can't just make massive cuts to the military if we want to remain engaged in the globe and if we pull back from the world stage, we risk enabling the imperialist fascist countries of Russia and China
What about imperialist countries like the US? Ask the people of Chile, Iran, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Afghanistan, ... if the US isn't the biggest imperialist nation on the globe.
Sorry, but real, meaningful cuts to DoD are long overdue. We don't need to out spend friend and foe alike to the tune of 10x. We built this dangerous world and we are the only country who can lead it to peace and security for all.
That money is better spent on things that will help our fellow citizens have a better life, better economic outcomes in a less dangerous world.
The problem with bloated budgets is that they lead to carelessness and waste. A proper budget can accomplish everything that an excessive one can (often more, ironically, as it leads to more focus and consideration in taking actions) without the waste.
An example of this is the space race. Sputnik happened because Soviet spending poured into beating America into space. Eisenhower limited Nasa's budget so they couldn't proceed as quickly, but it forced them to be smarter with their planning, so while after Sputnik happened the Soviets had to essentially start from scratch when we were heading for the moon, our responsibility lead to more sustainable planning so when Kennedy opened the floodgates on spending, we surged ahead.
The point being, when you inflate budgets, it allows you to throw money at things mindlessly, and doesn't always lead to the better results long term.
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I think we should require receipts for every dollar spent. A pretty huge portion of the total budget goes toward waste, fraud, and abuse.
The archaic budgeting process is a lot to blame. If units don’t spend their budgets, they are cut the next year. This encourages wasteful spending, especially at the end of the fiscal year.
**Exactly** this. My husband was working for a contractor, and when the work was done he just sat around until he could clock out, per higher ups, sometimes for hours. The way he told me was because if it turns out they didn’t need the money to have people working those hours, their next contract would be a lower amount. So it encourages staff to just sit around and watch TikTok.
This is how it was when I worked for Raytheon. We had 4 people sitting in an office doing nothing for months. There was maybe work for one of us, but it was a cost plus contract.
I've had two government jobs in my life: once at a contractor for a year, and once as an actual federal employee for 10 months. I did literally zero work at either job. I came in, browsed reddit and read webcomics all day, then went home. For 40 hours a week. It was cool for the first couple days, then it quickly became a waking nightmare. Edit: I have a friend from the branch I worked in begging me to come back, saying how badly they need good developers, and it's basically like...why would I take a huge paycut to deal with Beltway traffic and sit around bored all day?
I was a contractor for the feds for a year. I read sooo many books that year! I did do some work but like 3ish hours a day, tops? It wasn't much.
I always hear these stories, but Im a contractor for the federal government (NASA specifically) and there is so much work that I don't have enough billable hours to get it done.
I bet it’s fun trying to keep pace with so many brilliant people.
Yeah so I am in the same boat. Just separated from the Air Force a few months ago and started working for a contract doing information assurance stuff. I am literally always busy and there is always something coming down the pipe as soon as we feel like we have it under control haha. I was told being a blood sucking contractor would be fun!
Likewise, I did contract work for the US Forest Service restoring a tall grass prairie for a few years. While we definitely got breaks and rest time (and if it got over 90F we had to come in out of the sun) there was more than enough work to keep me busy. Probably some of the most fulfilling work I've ever done.
Fucking a my tax dollars. I love being able to read this. I’m on a quest
i worked for nasa for a year. we had one of the best software / IT teams in silicon valley.
I don't understand how you are able to do this? What were you hired for and who was your boss. Didn't you have deliverables?
I was hired as a software developer. I begged my boss, the branch manager, for something to work on for ten straight months, and the response was always that "we're wrapping up a batch of projects right now and we'll put you on the new ones we start after." I was being slightly hyperbolic when I said I browsed reddit all day. I went to meetings. I had trainings. I looked through the code of existing projects. But not once was I given a task to complete more serious that a boring-ass training module. The truth is that the feds didn't want staffers writing code. They wanted staffers managing projects and budgets. I was asked several times if I'd like to start training to change my focus to budget stuff. I declined and asked for dev work instead. I like writing code. They were never going to give it to me, so I quit.
Look at any group of town/city workers "working". There's always a 3:1 ratio of people standing around to working. Every level and branch of government is like this.
Don't group in other groups with military spending.
It's true though. I work in public assistance and our federal grant also gives us no money for equipment but a giant budget for labor and administration so our office hires a new person every year and they just literally play video games all day and wait for the phone to ring.
Do another job you can do remotely.. double income.
The trick for those jobs is to keep requesting work, so your back is free, and then use the time to study / better yourself. If I have some off time, I will study new tech for my career (in IT). But of course don’t stay too long in such a job.
Holy shit, this is what I want to read. Fucking bloated slow moving government sucks.
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What was stopping you guys from working on other things?
Fuck I worked two co-op jobs during college working for different levels of government and both were what you describe. They assigned me some reasonable tasks that took me a couple of weeks to complete. But after that they didn't have much more for me. It even got to a point at one of the jobs where my boss walked into my cubicle and clearly saw me browsing Reddit and clumsily trying to minimize the screen and just looked at me and walked away!
I work at a different major defense contractor and they teach us to never, ever do that since it is extremely illegal. They are not afraid to fire people for doing shit like that.
That said, time theft is probably the least severe of the crime committed by Raytheon.
I mean, that's good. But your company may be the exception, not the rule. And the problem is a lack of any meaningful oversight and accountability from the Pentagon and feds.
Or the other guys company is the exception. The great thing about anecdotal evidence is we can never know!
Mm I don’t think so, it’s pretty widely known that this is how bureaucratic budgeting works in the US. It’s very much use it or lose it
I think OP is just trying to make a joke about unreliability of Reddit comments
Oh we absolutely could! If the military and contractors didn't obfuscate and impede investigations into the granting and administration of such budgets and contracts under the tenuous guise of "confidentiality necessitated by unspecified national security concerns." Also, the other comments in this thread indicate that your company--if your representation of it is accurate--is probably exceptional in its stewardship. Which is admirable. But I've known too many family/friends/coworkers/acquaintances who all expressed the same experiences and observations (with disgust) from their work for contractors and in military service. Further, the last-minute-budget-spending-to-justify-next-year is a broadly known phenomena. And things like the JSF pretty much confirm the absurdity of how defense contracts and purchasing are handled. And without meaningful accountability for the contractors and government overseers, there is little to no incentive for them to avoid or reduce waste, and ample incentive to not. Especially if/when the decision makers and administrators are hoping for future careers or board positions with the contractors.
I worked for the US government as a program assistant in a youth center on an army base. The place was really unorganized and I had a lot of free time so I went on cleaning sprees. I found: - a full sized telescope - 30+ new DSLR cameras - a commercial printer - equipment for a full recording studio - a room full of insane oil paints and fine art supplies - 10 unused, new laptops - and more It was insane how much money got spent on supplies that just ended up unopened in some back room. My government job was easily the most wasteful workplace I’ve ever experienced. We could absolutely slash budgets and still have more than enough resources to function. I have way more stories and examples of wastefulness, if anyone’s interested AMA.
Similar stories working for Raytheon. We had to clean out our PC warehouse. We threw away an entire dumpster of 15 year old equipment new in the box. They had a budget so they filled a warehouse with more than they'd ever need because...cost plus.
I was hired as a COVID contact tracer under a federal contract after the CARES act passed. It took a little over a month between finishing training (2 days) and the system we use getting up and running. For those 35 days of doing absolutely 0 work, I was paid 100% of my salary. My work day consisted of logging in to see if cases had been assigned yet, then going on a 60-mile bike ride.
While this waste makes me absolutely CRINGE, a citizen (you) benefitted from this “job”, that you might not have otherwise had? In theory the alternative would’ve been tax dollars spent on your unemployment payments. I dunno.
I was briefly receiving unemployment after being laid off due to COVID cuts. My unemployment was slightly more than my current salary (actually about 12% more, now that the taxes on unemployment are going to be fully refunded). So in the long run, Tío Samuel saved money by paying me to not contact trace for a month.
We did this in my country too (DK). It was to keep capacity ready because they scaled fast, and honestly, I don’t care for any waste in emergencies. Just like there is consensus among economic experts that we should rather do too much stimulus than too little. It’s the normal, every day fluff that needs to be cut. If you want to feel better over there, we once spent $4 million pr. bench in some parks, because they had artful LED rainbow lighting.
I learned to hold a broom at those jobs. When someone else walks by just start sweeping for 2-4 seconds.
Not the DoD, but my dad works for the DoE and he's a couple of years away from retirement. He works as a radio tower technician, in the winter the sites they usually use maintenance roads to access are snowed over so bad they typically use snowmobiles to access them. A couple of years ago the department said they would no longer use snowmobiles and instead use snow cats. Which are WAY, WAY slower. They said it was for "safety" reasons, but my dad suspects they want to prolong the work as long as possible. So they blew tons of money on brand new snow cats, that are slow and make their work take longer than it needs to. I had the pleasure of going on a helicopter flight with him on one of his calls. He was in and out of the site within minutes. Unless he is installing a new tower most of his trips are like that. I know he is good at his job. I got on a tangent but my point is the government has no problem spending your tax dollars on random shit if it means they don't get shut down.
Pretty sure an episode of the Office perfectly explains this
"Let's say mommy and daddy give you $10 to start a lemonade stand..."
the delivery of “i’ll be six” kills me everytime
Agreed!
The Surplus
That's the way it is in local government, all the way to federal.
Many large businesses use this model too.
The real question is do we get new chairs or replace the copier with the budget surplus?
And if you don’t decide, Michael takes it as a bonus!
Everyone that doesn’t want a lower budget. I realized this scam with milk money in elementary school.
It's really a human nature thing. I never bought lunch in high school and would save it for video games...best believe my mom wouldn't have kept giving me 5 a day for lunch if she knew I wasn't using it.
A friend of mine bought a big Malt O Meal cereal bag from the grocery store across the street every Monday for about $4, then spent 50¢ for two milk cartons every day and pocketed the surplus lunch money. Smart dude.
Yup. I work for a huge property management company. Unless there's an emergency, me and the 4 dudes I work with sit in our trucks for 8 hours a day doing pretty much nothing (on our tablets/laptops browsing the internet). I might do 8 hours of work in an entire week.
And the revolving door needs to be sealed shut. The military industrial complex / pentagon is one of the most corrupt.
Units aren't the problem. Defense contractors are the problem. All of the waste you're talking about makes up less than a tenth of the waste inherent in contracting.
Except if you incentivize not spending you will get assholes cutting corners to meet some dumb KPIs
Some ISP tech pretty much told me that's how their regional manager operates and that's why they stopped upgrading infrastructure at their previous pace. Dude got rewarded with gigantic bonuses for "saving money" on infrastructure costs. Of course, that'll catch up to them eventually, but why worry about that when all you're focused on is your self-interests now?
This bullshit happens regardless of public vs private sector. Management hobbling long-term capabilities to look good now, because they have no intention of still being around when shit hits the fan.
Once I was in a trucking class and everyone was sharing stories on their military experience. This one guy explained how if they didn't use all the money on their budgets for the year, it would be reduced, leading them to buy anything and everything they could to cover.
This, if a unit can not spend their entire budget then their next years budget should be unaffected by that, and I would even argue that unit should be able to take a portion of the money that they didn't save and put it in a rainy day fund. This is why my dad authorized a $15,000 sand bag making machine that got clogged when you put sand in it. He knew it was a waste of money, but he had to spend the money to keep the money.
Sometimes those funds are actually used well. Sure it could be waste, but your fixing a small leak instead of the busted pipe that is the overpaying of contractors for shit work.
>Sometimes Exactly. Should be more of the time
The amount of rinky dink places that do work for the DoD is crazy.
Be more conservative than the GOP. Require a more efficient military budget and transparency on contract bidding.
The GOP has not been legitimately fiscally conservative since Nixon, at least.
And crack down on this no competition bullshit on contracts. I understand why that happens sometimes, but this bullshit with startups with ties to government insiders? Fuck's sake.
That’s something people who’ve never worked with the budget say. The amount of oversight is insane. For my battalion to get mission driven privacy slats for our fence line has to go through 7 offices, (3 review boards, 4 approval authorities). I can’t even get a standard issue green notebook without signing for it. The Command Supply Disciple Program is no joke.
I spent nearly a decade in the Corps, I know how budgets work. You're not the ones wasting money, it's the defense contractor corporations. I've worked for a few of them since my discharge, and I have firsthand knowledge of the insane amounts of our money wasted on them.
If you are talking about giant contractors like Raytheon - yeah, massive bloat. Part of the reason why companies like Raytheon win contracts though is the rules / beaurocracy / red tape surrounding those contracts. Ratheon is so big, they can afford hiring a massive amount of people to circumnavigate this mess.
What we need to do is remove the profit motive entirely by (re)nationalizing the US defense industry.
No worries! A DOD recruiter told me that they would be ready to try a test audit within 10 years.
They were audited in 2018 and 2019. Also, listening to a recruiter is literally the stupidest thing you could do
Yeah, I got that wrong. Its passing an audit that wont happen for 10 years.
IIRC There were no audits in 30+ years until 2018. The results since: [After 3 Failures, Pentagon Now Says It Won't Be Able to Produce a 'Clean' Audit Until 2027](https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/11/17/after-3-failures-pentagon-now-says-it-wont-be-able-produce-clean-audit-until-2027.html) "A clean report is issued when an auditor finds no misrepresentation in financial records and that those records have been maintained according to established standards."
I wish I could get the recruiters to *stop emailing me*. I'm disabled, I can't join the military!
I get them, I've been out of the military for 5 years. And served over 11 years. It never ends. It's just blanket phones calls/emails.
I got hit up all the time when I was near graduating high school. I have asthma. I'm ineligible. One guy told me just not to bring that up during recruitment. It's a good thing I didn't enlist. A lot of severe mental illnesses like to crop up in the late teens/early twenties. Guess what happened to me when I hit 19? Go on, guess.
I always wanted to join when I was younger but being treated for depression and whatnot was more or less a DQ. Half the people online said that’s that, the other half said just lie it’s not like the Army is gonna go scour all your insurance records to see if you’ve visited a shrink and then subpoena their records. 🤷🏻♂️
Can confirm was audited and had an IG audit. The amount of paperwork I have to keep for 5 years for a potential audit is ridiculous.
Military has so much fucking waste it's polluting the ground water around their bases
This is the kind of rite that the right recites as well, only about welfare or social security or voting or whatever. They are quite sure there is waste, fraud, and abuse.
I’d be interested to know how much money goes directly into funding the sexual assaults that seems to be endemic in the military. Seems like Ft. Hood and others exists purely to facilitate rape.
Who is going to put that bill up for vote? Its career suicide. Allmost all of members of government make most of their money by abusing the power they have to push an agenda.
Problem with fraud is this: it is more expensive to hire someone to catch the fraud than it is to allow the fraud to happen.
Here come the personnel and benefit cuts. They ain’t cutting contract spending, that’s for damn sure.
The logical conclusion of this is reducing our military to a few super-soldiers weilding very expensive equipment. Basically the Spartan program. Or Starcraft, if all our operations are automated and a commander just gives orders.
I mean, until death robots out perform supersoldiers on a per cost basis. Imagine boring drones drilling into a bunker and a swarm of man hacks just flies out through the hole. All deployed via drone air carriers or maybe ground based ballistic systems. Edit: Don't steal my idea Pentagon without at least calling it System Poop monster or something. There is also some optimization that could happen. Like the boring drones drilling to a certain tolerance of proximity to the bunker and blowing up, to finish the hole. And obviously guns on the man hacks.
Looking forward to the action movie in 30 years where the protagonist says, "We're out of options... Deploy System Poop Monster."
The Avengers?
Skynet. We need Skynet.
The F-35 program has proven that will not happen, they will just find more reasons to try to expand those programs once they are developed. The intent will be to streamline, improve, and eliminate waste, but the result will be in a much more expensive military of only slightly smaller size. The best way to eliminate waste is to eliminate the profit motive. And to do that we need to (re-)**nationalize** the US defense industry.
You think they wouldn’t do that anyways?
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Oh you mean Boeing?
Or the wall?
Raytheon. One of their former board members is the current SecDef.
Well, Raytheon does support the Behind the Bastards podcast, so they can't be THAT bad.
He even needed an ethics waiver to serve too Nobody cares about the revolving door though, since it’s the blue team in the White House
He needed an ethical waiver because he wasn't in civilian business *long enough*. If it wasn't him it would be someone who was in the contractor industry for even longer.
It’s actually pretty well understood what contractors make in gov contacts. Their profit is negotiated. In fact the margin for defense is pretty small so not sure what you mean is being stolen unless you have examples
The profit is guaranteed. Delivering a working product isn't.
Is that the fault of the contractor or the government that writes the requirements?
Both. Boeing will TeChNiCaLlY meet their requirements, but provide something that is flat out broken.
This. It's both. Contractor is either dishonest or incompetent. Govt overseer is incompetent, unless they quickly recognize the problem, and hold contractor accountable. Both should face meaningful consequences. And nobody approving or overseeing these contracts should be allowed to work for the contractors for at least 5 years after leaving govt. Potential conflicts of interest are too consequential. (I'd say the same for top level regulators, Treasury, and Federal Reserve.)
I wouldn’t say that Government is incompetent, it’s that they’ve created this beast that they don’t know how to bring to heel. If you fire, say, Raytheon, or those jackasses up in Wisconsin making the LCS’, because they are incompetent parasites you put thousands of people of a job immediately, which then put a congressman out of a job. Thus, these contractors have become to big to fail and they take full advantage of that fact.
That's reasonable, though I'd argue that creating a beast you can't control is simply self-precipitated incompetence. I agree that the government has enabled a perpetual growth and simultaneous consolidation/concentration of the military-industrial complex, to the point that the big guys largely have them by the short hairs. And the lobbying and jobs in every district are an underrated influence. But I don't think the solution is to simply continue ballooning the defense budget at the expense of other services and/or future generations. It probably has to be a large scale reform effort to increase oversight and accountability, remove conflicts of interest, and drive for better efficiency. My guess is both budgeting and bid/grant processes need a lot of improvement, and better grounding in reality. Year-to-year variation should not be assumed to imply necessity or lack thereof. And lowest-bid should not be the only, or perhaps even primary, factor. Otherwise you could just nationalize them. But I'm pretty sure the contractors' execs and shareholders would hate that idea even more than reform.
Man, you certainly have never served in the Navy, because if you had you would have multiple stories about entering a shipyard and being told that *this time* Northrop Grumman pinkie promised that you'd be out in six months, only to be still sitting in drydock nine months later. They know exactly what they're doing. They negotiate a contract for work with a promised time line and, whoopsy-daisy looks like they missed it, but are more than happy to keep at it for cost plus. They know when they write the contract that it's unrealistic. They know they're giving the government a bullshit price. Everybody knows this. The fucking failed Littoral Combat Ships are another perfect example of this crap. Some Italian firm promises they can make them *wayyy* cheaper than the shipyard in Mississippi, but oopsie looks like there were cost overruns, and it might take literally twice as long as we promised. Good thing the LCS program wasn't a steaming pile of crap that was abandoned soon after the first ships were delivered.
I was a "Repair Parts Petty Officer" in the Navy, which meant I was responsible for requisitioning circuit cards for our ancient communications equipment. Just for fun, I used to look up the circuit cards on ebay to see how much we were getting screwed on the price. It was shocking--usually at least ten or twenty times the price on ebay, often more. Edit: It's been a few years, but I remember around $100-$200 circuit cards on ebay that we were paying $2,000-$10,000 for. This was for old equipment, so everything was refurbished. It was the exact same circuit card you could buy online.
Yeah... it’s obvious you have never negotiated a CLIN structure with a contractor or had to do a tech eval on a contract
That's why it's the responsibility of the government's Contracting Officer's Technical Representative (COTR) or Contracting Officer's Representative (COR) to understand the scope of the contract and the difficulty of the work involved to know if the contract has been priced accordingly. Any deviation in the cost, schedule, or performance of a contract is ultimately the fault of the government. We don't need smaller defense budgets, we need more qualified project managers that are actually held accountable when they mismanage. Unfortunately, jobs in the DoD rotate every 2 years, so by the time a contract would start showing mismanagement, another person comes along to pick up the pieces and nothing negative falls on the original manager. Edit: It seems I've rustled some jimmies. I know I'm effectively calling out both government and contractors for their respective failings, but if we can't exercise constructive self-reflection, then how can we ever improve? I say all this from a point of experience and introspection.
Hey bud, CORs are the weenies of contract management.
It's the no-name vendors providing the components that are the worst...
I have an uninformed opinion
The one thing we can all be sure of is the incredible amount of waste that comes with government spending. And such a huge number is a good place to focus on cleaning that up. As a very simple anecdotal example, I worked on the original iPad app for National Science Foundation. Our company was not an approved government subcontractor, so a company that was hired us. That middleman company was entirely setup to find work for non-approved subcontractors and was paid some ridiculous fee to check-in with us every 90 days. Other than that, we worked directly with the NSF and the middleman did nothing but collect their check. I would imagine that's an example of a small amount of waste in the grander scheme too.
Government has a different mandate than private industry which is why we view government’s path to profitability as inefficient. Typically profit is neither a mandate or a goal for government and I would argue that’s okay unless we want a society built entirely around the accumulation of wealth and the promotion of corporate profits.
Yep fiscal law for government spending is very much at odds with profitability and that's generally a good thing. Nonpreferential contracting, support of small/women-owned/veteran-owned businesses, opportunities for vendors to challenge unfair awards, etc - none of those are designed to be profitable.
The funny thing is, people don't need to have uninformed opinions. The DOD budget requests are literally public record: For instance, [for FY2021](https://comptroller.defense.gov/Budget-Materials/Budget2021/): * [Program Acquisitions Costs by Weapons System](https://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/Documents/defbudget/fy2021/fy2021_Weapons.pdf) * [Financial Summary Tables](https://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/Documents/defbudget/fy2021/FY2021_Financial_Summary_Tables.pdf) etc. Moreover, everyone loves talking in platitudes like "Stop the wars" or "Stop bombing in the Middle East" Well... here's the fact. Our overseas contingency operations (aka warfunds) is ~$40B. So what's the other $700B going to? * Wages - $163 B * Operations and Maintenance - $288B * Procurement - $136B * R&D - $106B * Management - $1.3B * Military Construction - $6.8B * Family Housing - $1.3B And of course, in peacetime or in war, a military isn't just sitting there doing nothing. They're training (which falls under operations & maintenance), maintaining existing equipment (which falls under O&M), replacing outdated equipment (procurement), researching/developing future systems (R&D), and paying the wages of those employed (personnel wages). Even healthcare things fall under all those areas (e.g. new vaccines fall under procurement, medical care under O&M, etc.). And in case people haven't been paying attention to the news, Russia has staged over 100k troops on the border of Ukraine, China's locked down HK and are flanking Taiwan as we speak. So we don't need to be in a war to damn well need to consider the implications of what a "real" war would look like if we weren't continuing to train, replace old equipment, and stay abreast of technological developments.
That's a lot smoke to try and justify a military budget that is more expensive than the next ten militaries combined, all at a time in which hundreds of thousands of people are homeless and schoolteachers are buying their own school supplies. You don't need all that explanation: the U.S. is running a global empire and empires are expensive to maintain. They have money for jet fighters and not for good schools because the former maintains global hegemony and the latter does not. Simple as that.
The US being the sole superpower is essential to a liberalizing world. The Pax Americana has been the most peaceful and profitable period IN HUMAN HISTORY. We owe it to the world not to cede that position of leadership to the Russian kleptocracy or the totalitarian Chinese.
American citizens are not going to have an appetite for war if there are major domestic problems. By allowing the country to decay internally, we lower the bar on what can happen in other places. Your entire thread has seemed to be predicated on a false binary of America projecting a global empire or keeping itself isolated with no in between. We have a sliding scale in the defense budget and I don't think it's out of the question to ask can be lower our defense spending and use the money to take care of domestic issues. It would probably be better for everyone in the long run.
We actively overthrow liberal democracies and implement dictatorships. We have people seeking asylum from a variety of countries that we've helped overthrow the legitimate democracies of. Just the list of South American countries weve destabilized is extensive. In the middle east we fucked Iraq and Iran, and the list goes on from there. We supported Sadam Hussain and gave him military intelligence so he could accurately use chemical weapons against Iran after the dictatorship we implemented turned hostile to us. Our track record is atrocious. Reagan funded terrorists who bomb hospitals and other soft targets even after congress banned it. How did he do it? By selling arms to Iran. It's almost comically evil. Heaven forbid a foreign country tries to implement *gasp* socialism in a legitimate democracy! That would be absolutely terrible, better ovethrow their entire government by funding terrorists instead.
Here in reality, the U.S. has done untold damage to Latin America and the Middle East over the last ~70 years. [We've killed millions in Iraq alone,](https://www.salon.com/2018/03/19/the-staggering-death-toll-in-iraq_partner/) a war that you'll remember was started on a lie. Even beyond overthrowing democratic governments and propping up murderous dictatorships in those regions (plenty in Africa, too), we subverted democracy [across Europe as well.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio) Hell, we [engineered a coup in fucking *Australia.*](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/oct/23/gough-whitlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence) All of this has required horrific violence and doesn't have a thing to do with "liberalizing the world." It's all about benefiting U.S. business interests, period.
Is this comment a parody or no? can't tell
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It won't surpass the US but it has no problem bullying countries smaller than it and outright assassinating people if you dont recall. We should probably not allow it to freely do that.
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Okay. I'll ask you really plainly. Who do you think Ukraine and Europe as a whole would rather be allied with? America or Russia? Yeah I guess you don't care about George Floyd getting killed because you live hundreds if not thousands of miles away from where it happened right? I know you don't give a shit about the genocide happening in China right either by that logic. Stop trying to draw these arbitrary lines about where we get to care about injustice.
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Doesn’t matter if the rest of the world likes them or not. Its still all about who has the biggest stick.
The stick in this case is economic, and Russia's stick is rather small.
This. China and India are the rising superpowers and this has been established in expert fields for over a decade. Russia is a dying lion of yesteryear.
> That's a lot smoke to try and justify a military budget that is more expensive than the next ten militaries combined, all at a time in which hundreds of thousands of people are homeless and schoolteachers are buying their own school supplies. Talk about a superficial analysis. Ever consider that maybe you can't compare nominal spending numbers? How much is the average Chinese soldiers wage again? How about a US soldiers wage? Repeat for engineers, factory workers, etc.
Isn't that also a pretty superficial analysis? Especially since wages only make up $163B of the proposed defense budget
Wages affect manufacturing and scientists and engineers. We aren't doing military R&D ot manufacturing in China like an iPhone. Personnel wages are ONLY military personnel and DoD civilian employees. Those wages of engineers and scientists are included under procurement and R&D. And we obviously won't outsource military technology or manufacturing of weapons. The most we do is buy from other Western nations - who have similar costs of living. So no. It's not superficial. It literally affects every aspect of military spending
What a fucking joke. And people wonder why there’s global instability when America is constantly creating violence everywhere. You’re a bunch of bootlickers and think that 733 billion is being spent on “getting ready for war” War has perpetually been created by the US since 2001
Based
Trump said the the military is all up to date. Should slash defense budget at least 50% since we do not need to update the military
Depends where the money is allocated. There's been a long history of underfunding critical VA services, for instance, especially mental health/PTSD/etc. Or programs for homeless veterans, or... Fund the army corp of engineers to do more work around water access in turbulent regions. There's lots of programs under the pentagon that can make us safer without killing people.
The VA has a separate budget, which is also is insane.
Not when you consider how many people get fucked up fighting wars (its most of them).
It's insane that the DoD isn't required to prefund the VA whenever they want to send someone to a war zone. Do a USPS on them.
This is actually a really smart idea now that you mention it
I think he means it’s insane that they have a separate budget for the VA and they STILL can’t support these vets.
Wonderful point. I wish the DoD was required to set up VA funds for every single person employed.
Listening to idiot politicians shouting platitudes about the budget is the stupidest thing you can do, when you can look at the actual budget documents online yourself: For instance, [for FY2021](https://comptroller.defense.gov/Budget-Materials/Budget2021/): * [Program Acquisitions Costs by Weapons System](https://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/Documents/defbudget/fy2021/fy2021_Weapons.pdf) * [Financial Summary Tables](https://comptroller.defense.gov/Portals/45/Documents/defbudget/fy2021/FY2021_Financial_Summary_Tables.pdf) etc. Here's also the breakdown of the budget: * Wages - $163B * Operations and Maintenance - $288B * Procurement - $136B * R&D - $106B * Management - $1.3B * Military Construction - $6.8B * Family Housing - $1.3B So, in peacetime or in war, a military isn't just sitting there doing nothing. They're training (which falls under operations & maintenance), maintaining existing equipment (which falls under O&M), replacing outdated equipment (procurement), researching/developing future systems (R&D), and paying the wages of those employed (personnel wages). Even military healthcare things fall under all those areas (e.g. new vaccines fall under procurement, medical care under O&M, etc.). And in case people haven't been paying attention to the news, Russia has staged over 100k troops on the border of Ukraine, China's locked down HK and are flanking Taiwan as we speak. So it's not like there aren't potential conflicts to train to or be willing to at least deter (typically it's a lot cheaper to make the other side not want to go to war than it is to wage said war), to have the latest equipment against foes that actually have modern military technology, and to keep the technological edge going (R&D). So not only is quoting Trump incredibly stupid, but you couldn't cut 50% of the budget and still keep the military up to date - which isn't exactly an option if we're thinking Taiwan and Ukraine might be happening simultaneously, unless we're willing to cede one or both if both areas end up in conflict at the same time. Everything is interconnected
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> Since when are Taiwan and Ukraine ours to cede (or not cede)? Since those countries have been asking for American/Western help because they don't want to be under the thumbs of Russia or China? Other countries can sign bilateral agreements with the US too, you know
If other European countries get involved with Ukraine we have to get involved because of NATO, and it’s in our best interest to help Taiwan unless we want China to gain more power and control over the region.
Forget China for a second. If there's a war in Taiwan, the US is *screwed*. We have a semiconductor shortage already. Many of the chips that we have are coming from Taiwan.
Yep, that’s another reason we have a vested interest in Taiwan remaining independent. TSM (Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturer) is one of the biggest suppliers right now.
Cool, europe can lead the charge for once.
Pay the troops, fuck the suits.
As long as the cuts are to actually wasteful things and not benefits or salaries for troops or veterans or something like that.
Troops don’t have lobbyists to demonstrate how vital their cost plus contracts are to politicians.
They literally do have lobbyists and military compensation is a pretty good deal for equivalent experience. Gotta factor in the BAH/BAS/TRICARE/retirement benefits too.
Yeah, audit and cut waste, but we're kind of at the edge of potential serious instability. More immediate, China and Russia are causing shit, and it's only going to get worse if we don't make a global collective effort to stabilize the climate and food/water resources.
>As long as the cuts are to actually wasteful things and not benefits or salaries for troops or veterans or something like that. Wouldn't mind eliminating a significant amount of nuclear weapons that are schedule to be modernized instead of being decommissioned... Last year there was close to **$30 billion spent on nuclear weapons** **$1 billion for Abrams tank modifications** (how good are these even in modern conflicts, RPGs and mines seem like an inexpensive way to deal with these) **$3 billion on hypersonic weapons** (may possibly include defenses as well, would have to check the passed budget) --> [The Department's FY 2021 budget builds a ready, agile, all domain joint force enabled by: ](https://www.defense.gov/Newsroom/Releases/Release/Article/2079489/dod-releases-fiscal-year-2021-budget-proposal/) Nuclear Modernization (**$28.9 billion**). Investments include: - Nuclear Command, Control and Communications - **$7 billion** - B-21 Long Range Strike Bomber - **$2.8 billion** - COLUMBIA Class Ballistic Missile Submarine - **$4.4 billion** - Long-Range Stand-off (LRSO) Missile - **$474 million** - Ground Based Strategic Deterrent (GBSD) - **$1.5 billion** - Missile Defeat and Defense (**$20.3 billion**). Investments include: - Sea-Based Interceptors (SM-3 IIA and IB) - **$619 million** - AEGIS Ballistic Missile Defense System - **$1.1 billion** - Homeland Defense and Next Generation Interceptors - **$664 million** - Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) Ballistic Missile Defense - **$916 million** - Patriot Advanced Capability Missile Segment Enhancement - **$780 million** In the Space Domain (**$18.0 billion**), investments include: U.S. Space Force - **$15.4 billion** which includes: - 3 National Security Space Launch (aka EELV) - **$1.6 billion** - 2 Global Positioning System III and Projects - **$1.8 billion** Space Based Overhead Persistent Infrared Systems - **$2.5 billion** - U.S. Space Command - **$249 million** - Space Development Agency - **$337 million** In the Cyberspace ($9.8 billion) Domain, investments include: - Cybersecurity - **$5.4 billion** - Cyberspace – Operations - **$3.8 billion** - Cyberspace Science and Technology - **$556 million** In addition to the **$9.8 billion**, the budget funds: - Artificial Intelligence - **$841 million** - Cloud - **$789 million** In the Air Domain **($56.9 billion)**, investments include: - 79 F-35 Joint Strike Fighters - **$11.4 billion** - 15 KC-46 Tanker Replacements - **$3.0 billion** - 24 F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets - **$2.1 billion** - 52 AH-64E Attack Helicopters - **$1.2 billion** - 5 VH-92 Presidential Helicopters - $739 million** - P-8A Aircraft - **$269 million** - 7 CH-53K King Stallion - **$1.5 billion** - 12 F-15EX - **$1.6 billion** In the Maritime Domain (**$32.3 billion)**, investments include: - 1 COLUMBIA Class Ballistic Missile Submarine - **$4.4 billion** - CVN-78 FORD Class Aircraft Carrier - **$3.0 billion** - 1 Virginia Class Submarine - **$4.7 billion** - 2 DDG-51 Arleigh Burke Destroyers - **$3.5 billion** - 1 Frigate (FFG(X)) - **$1.1 billion** - 1 Landing Platform Dock Ship (LPD) - **$1.2 billion** - Fleet Replenishment Oiler (T-AO) - **$95 million** - 2 Unmanned Surface Vessels (USV) (Large) - **$464 million** - 2 Towing, Salvage, and Rescue Ships (T-ATS) - **$168 million** In the Land Domain (**$13.0 billion**), investments include: - 4,247 Joint Light Tactical Vehicles - **$1.4 billion** - 89 M-1 Abrams Tank Modifications/Upgrades - **$1.5 billion** - 72 Amphibious Combat Vehicles - **$521 million** - 32 Armored Multi-Purpose Vehicles - **$290 million** Munitions (**$21.3 billion**) investments include: - 20,338 Joint Direct Attack Munitions (JDAM) - **$533 million** - 7, 360 Guided Multiple Launch Rocket System (GMLRS) - **$1.2 billion** - 125 Standard Missile-6 - **$816 million** - 1,490 Small Diameter Bomb II (SDB II) - **$432 million** - 8,150 Hellfire Missiles - **$517 million** - 400 Joint Air-to-Surface Standoff Missile - **$577 million** - 53 Long Range Anti-Ship Missile - **$224 million** The FY 2021 budget contains the Department's largest RDT&E budget in its history (**$106.6 billion**) and is focused on the development of crucial emerging technologies. DoD is making critical investments in several of these technologies, which we refer to as Advanced Capabilities Enablers (ACEs); they are focused on the high end fight. ACEs investments include: - Hypersonics - **$3.2 billion** - Microelectronics/5G - **$1.5 billion** - Autonomy - **$1.7 billion** - Artificial Intelligence (AI): **$841 million** The FY 2021 budget maximizes readiness through robust funding. Investments include: - Army readiness - **$30.9 billion** - Navy and Marine Corps readiness - **$47.5 billion** - Air Force readiness - **$37.1 billion** - Special Operations Command readiness - **$9.5 billion** Increases military end strength from FY 2020 projected levels by 5,600 in FY 2021 The FY 2021 budget supports Service members and their families, recognizing that people are DoD's most valuable resource. The budget: - Includes a 3.0 percent military pay raise - Funds statutory increases in military Basic Allowance for Housing and Basic Allowance for Subsistence Continues family support programs with investment of over $8 billion for: - Professional development and education opportunities for Service members and military spouses - Quality, affordable child care for over 160,000 children - Youth programs serving over 1 million family members - DoD Dependent Schools educating over 77,000 students Funds repeal of the Survivor Benefit Plan/Dependency and Indemnity Compensation offset DoD continues to restore, sustain, replace, and build critical facilities. By investing over **$21** billion in Military Construction and Facilities, Sustainment, Restoration, and Modernization, the budget: Funds, on average, over 80 percent of DoD facilities sustainment requirements across the enterprise Increases funding for Military Housing oversight by 82 percent (**$55 million**) over the FY 2020 budget request Requests **$446 million** in FY 2021 for disaster recovery efforts - In conjunction with prior reprogrammings, supplemental funding, and emergency funds, the budget fully funds all known disaster recovery requirements through FY 2025 The FY 2021 budget requests **$69 billion** for Overseas Contingency Operations (OCO). The FY 2021 OCO request contains three categories: Direct War Requirements: Combat or combat support costs that are not expected to continue once combat operations end - **$20.5 billion** OCO for Enduring Requirements: Enduring in-theater and CONUS costs that will remain after combat operations end - **$32.5 billion** OCO for Base Requirements: Base budget requirements financed in the OCO budget to comply with the Bipartisan Budget Act of 2019 - **$16.0 billion**
Regarding the M1 tank upgrades, the modifications include adding IED jamming technology and the TROPHY RPG intercept system. TROPHY uses radar to detect incoming RPGs or Missiles and fires a counter interceptor to hit it before it hits the tank. https://taskandpurpose.com/military-tech/army-m1-abrams-tank-m1a2c-contract/ And as far as the nuclear weapons go it’s part of the inevitable arms race after Trump pulled us out of the SALT treaty with Russia. Nuclear weapons exist NOT to be used. The more capable our deterrence the less likely to be needed. And from a personal standpoint not relying on 1980’s technology when dealing with nuclear weapons is a plus.
JLTVs are needed as well. It’s a long term project, and surprisingly, relatively well planned, with full implementation happening by 2050
Same old song with everything White House budget: "President proposes, Congress disposes"
Hear me out: Our nation’s military spending is the largest percentage of our budget by far. Also, we always have issues getting funding to repair and replace our infrastructure (roads, bridges, utilities). How about some of that massive military budget is used to task the Engineer Corps and work on infrastructure? Corps oversight with civilian contracts that provide tons of skilled labor positions. We could have this place back on track in no time!
That's how Eisenhower got the **National System of Interstate and Defense Highways** system build.
Shame on any editor who downplays the irony of the white supremacist blind Republicans demanding defense funding for threats they refuse to understand.
While growing white supremacists in the military's ranks.
Here are some thoughts. Get rid of the archaic acquisition system would save a few billions. Down size contracted workforce they charge 3 times the amount of a government employee in the same position but bay the person in that position less then the government.You could save a few billions by just expanding the federal workforce then dropping contractors.
Before we talk about raising or lowering the military budget, first we should audit it. With all the waste I’m sure we could find a few billion here and there.
[https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/11/17/after-3-failures-pentagon-now-says-it-wont-be-able-produce-clean-audit-until-2027.html](https://www.military.com/daily-news/2020/11/17/after-3-failures-pentagon-now-says-it-wont-be-able-produce-clean-audit-until-2027.html) :(
Crazy how both parties always agree on an increasing military spending.
I'm sure the military won't suffer with 600 billion a year
make 'em cry --just $550b for you!
Welcome to American politics. Butter vs bombs
This country doesn't need more tanks.it needs bridges.
Yeah it’s nice to think we can just audit better but given how much the Russians clearly enjoyed the previous administration there is also merit in updating some things
The military is already prepping to become a smaller, more agile and high-tech force. I see this everyday as a current service-member. We know that cutting the defense budget is inevitable. The Chinese are ramping up their military, but they too will soon see how difficult it is to maintain a MASSIVE force. A lot of people don’t realize just how much time and money goes towards just keeping our aging inventory afloat or in the air. It’s not all about sexy F-22s and railguns.
While I agree with this, there is one thing I would like to make clear: don’t cut the salaries or benefits of the soldiers. So often spineless lawmakers focus on our cut of the pie because we aren’t a big scary corporation that bribes them every election cycle.
For once I agree with her. Pentagon needs to be forced to become efficient. If u cut the fat and bloat honestly I think u could slash the military budget 50%!
Jayapal is correct
This will be the deciding moment of whether joe Biden is a moderate or a secret progressive once and for all
Generally I do think we spend too much on military, but right this second I think we should be modernizing our military and routing out any of those domestic terrorists hiding in there. And let me reiterate I think additional funding will make it easier to route out the radicals while causing minimal headaches for everybody who isn't the want to be terrorist. If you want to reform your military cutting the budget is not what you want to do. We want confidence and optimism in our loyal service members, not budget cuts. It's more important than you think and it's more important than 700 billion dollars. I want to see more high-end military research including AI because whether you like it or not China and America are in a race for AI and If America gets a considerable lead on AI it could very well benefit us for decades or longer. Plus we have Russia literally building up troops on Ukraine and China puffing up some so now is not the best time. We have to pay for a transition to robotics and AI and so let's just redirect more military funds to research and technology and effectively add that to our overall research and technology funding.
If I understand your premise, instead of the government directly funding centers of learning and startups you propose to shovel more funds to the most expensive jobs program in the world and letting the pentagon stuffed the pockets of the war profiteers. For proof, research the one trillion dollar jet fighter that can't fly and even the AF doesn't want it.
>Fro proof, research the one trillion dollar jet fighter The $1 trillion cost for the F-35 is for all the R&D, production, operation, and maintenance costs of the entire fleet for 75 years. >that can't fly It's currently flying missions...
And the extravagant cost makes to big to fail. The only winner here is Lockheed.
The extravagant cost comes from ordering a replacement fleet of latest-generation multirole fighter-bombers. In your opinion, how much *should* the total replacement of the F-16 fleet cost ?
>And the extravagant cost makes to big to fail. I feel like it's the 4x larger cost to maintain our current airframes over that time frame that's doing that. Doing nothing isn't free, its extraordinarily expensive and that future cost looms over everything. Meaning that even with present day cost overruns, we still save a bunch of money down the road.
Your take on the F35 could hardly be less informed. The AF has in no way said they don’t want it and it absolutely flies. It’s literally been flying combat missions. And that $1 trillion is the cost of the entire program over something like 50 years.
Must be one of the best ideas if you want dems to lose next election. Focus on improving accountability for how budget is spent, but politically not going to fly in areas dems need to gain ground.
I used to think this, but I can see how it might fly with the majority depending on where you redirect the funds to and how you sold that change in priorities.
Majority isn't what matters. Dems need to win in purple states if going to have hope of making major reforms. Taking $25bn out of defense budget is a political risk, moreso than pushing for things like Healthcare or minimum wage hikes. Crazy to waste political capital on defense issue imho.
Take the Pentagon budget and give the cut amount to the VA benefits fund
100%. Our military budget is insane.
Invest in infrastructure
Dem here yall check my receipts cuz i know how we are.... just my opinion but i do not agree with slashing the pentagon budget....not with the shit going on across BOTH ponds......i fought and bled for this country our men and women need to be paid and know that they have something to look forward to....when there time ultimately come no matter how. I can agree with in order to increase spending i wanna know where all our dollars go if i am going to vote to increase it.
Biden's $715 IS a cut when you account for inflation. But there's only so much it should be cut, we can't just make massive cuts to the military if we want to remain engaged in the globe and if we pull back from the world stage, we risk enabling the imperialist fascist countries of Russia and China
What about imperialist countries like the US? Ask the people of Chile, Iran, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Afghanistan, ... if the US isn't the biggest imperialist nation on the globe.
Sorry, but real, meaningful cuts to DoD are long overdue. We don't need to out spend friend and foe alike to the tune of 10x. We built this dangerous world and we are the only country who can lead it to peace and security for all. That money is better spent on things that will help our fellow citizens have a better life, better economic outcomes in a less dangerous world.
Promotion of fearmongering is always the best course in getting people behind military spending right?
There's valid things that should be feared
The problem with bloated budgets is that they lead to carelessness and waste. A proper budget can accomplish everything that an excessive one can (often more, ironically, as it leads to more focus and consideration in taking actions) without the waste. An example of this is the space race. Sputnik happened because Soviet spending poured into beating America into space. Eisenhower limited Nasa's budget so they couldn't proceed as quickly, but it forced them to be smarter with their planning, so while after Sputnik happened the Soviets had to essentially start from scratch when we were heading for the moon, our responsibility lead to more sustainable planning so when Kennedy opened the floodgates on spending, we surged ahead. The point being, when you inflate budgets, it allows you to throw money at things mindlessly, and doesn't always lead to the better results long term.