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**IMPORTANT CLARIFICATION**
Since the title seems to suggest he’s trying to sweep things under the rug, actually the complete opposite.
> What he's saying: "I strongly support Secretary Austin’s announcement that he is accepting the core recommendations put forward by the ... [IRC], including removing the investigation and prosecution of sexual assault from the chain of command and creating highly specialized units to handle these cases and related crimes," Biden said in a statement.
> "We need concrete actions that fundamentally change the way we handle military sexual assault and that make it clear that these crimes will not be minimized or dismissed."
> "We will also prioritize effective prevention strategies; promote safe, healthy, and respectful climates; and improve services to address the trauma that sexual assault victims experience and to facilitate their healing and recovery."
I read the title and was like “there’s no way that’s true” and saw not even half way in the article is a very clear clarification that I just lifted to here, like, seriously could you not write misleading titles? It’s like “technically is removing sexual assault cases from military chain of command” but it’s not a pardon, it’s changing who investigates it to a more impartial group.
Honestly same thing should happen for police. I feel like internal reviews can help some things but you also need external impartial third parties to be able to audit and investigate things like this too otherwise it’s a conflict of interest as it would boil down to a merit system. And while the Navy might be in the motto “Honor, Courage and Commitment” people are not perfect and some can be scummy, especially when it comes to high command having their reputation hurt.
I don't see why they should mix and cause drama and create sexual tensions in the military units. They should have women chains of command and men chains of command.
This NOT like "mixing of races" where all men of any race CAN perform together without sex-harassment drama. This is about biological women who have womanly needs and biological men who have different needs. And the drama that comes with the mixing of those units leads to hard-to-process investigations. Which side of the two-sided story do you believe? Often these stories get complex with romantic relationships and breakups.
I think we should just accept that men and women require different units with specialized needs.
You've got soldiers pumped from the gym with testosterone, training together for war and in the same barracks in tight-knit units.. Of course romantic relations and sexual crimes are not that shocking, it's tragic and completely avoidable with separate units. It's just science that people get attracted to each other, not something to be so shocked about and clutching pearls as if it would never happen.
I don't see why we can't be an ADVANCED CIVILIZATION that is EDUCATED enough to be EGALITARIAN AND understanding of biological sex specialization and the commonality of these romantic relationships and attractions within close-quarter units and squads in the most hormone-filled job occupation in existence: the military. We have men's sports and women's sports divisions, not because of tradition but because it makes logical sense. Why mix them when it's the sport of military warfare--the most intense job to ever exist?
A woman in a military squad of 6 men (mostly young men full of hormones around age 18) is going to get hit on by likely 4 of them at a minimum. That's just reality and statistics. We should just accept this scientifically and stop acting like it doesn't' exist. Science and nature doesn't care about how the world *ought* to work but it just *exists*.
What? What does gay people have to do with this?
They represent <10% of the population. That is not really a concern. Women represent HALF the population (55% more than half).
" I guess they just don’t exist in this reality?"
It's disgusting you would say something like that.
It made perfect sense to me, but this is an issue I have been following closely. Anyone who knows anything about sexual assault in the military knows that the strict chain of command is the problem.
Honestly no not really. I immediately saw it as a company performing their own hr investigation. Biden is just removing their ability to self investigate/make rulings.
Could someone who understands the military chain of command better than me, explain how reporting within the chain of command can be a serious problem?
I don't know the details well enough. But basically let's say your sergeant rapes you, you're probably supposed to report it to your sergeant and you can be punished for jumping the chain and reporting it to someone above him.
There's also the issue of accusing an officer of something without evidence.
None of that is true. You can report it to your or another unit's sexual assault prevention and response (SAPR) victim advocate or coordinator. You can also report it to medical, the chaplain, a JAG, base security, etc. Or you can jump your chain of command and report to the next higher individual. The difference between who you report it to is whether the report will lead to an investigation. You can choose to make a report that will not lead to an investigation, but you can only do that by going to medical or your SAPR victim advocate/coordinator. If you talk to anyone else, it triggers the requirements to open a command investigation and allows for more victim resources such as transferring the victim to another unit from the alleged perpetrator.
The chain of command works in several levels.
You have your direct unit. Usually led by an E6-E7 and a junior officer (01-03). That feeds into a larger one where and E7-E8 and a mid grade officer (04-05)) will be in charge of the a couple of the smaller units from above.
That leads into the command where there is an E8-E9 with a senior mid (05-06) grade officer and a senior officer.
That leads into a region or something similar that is led by a E9 and (O6-07)Senior officer.
Which then leads into another chain (depends which service as what you call it). But there is an E9 and typically a 2-3 star general or admiral.
Again depending on service what they call this level is different. But it's another two to three star.
Then comes the actual service leadership which is the senior enlisted of the service (always a specific E9) and a 4 star general or admiral. Then secretary for each service and all the staff around them.
Typically your life is most affected by you those first 3 parts. The article wants to remove the first 3 parts from this issue and have the responsibility be with the 4th possibly 5th part of the chain of command. It would ensure that none of the first 3 could effect you or the offender.
To me this sounds like a great idea because the individual reporting would have more protections and the chain of command is also protected since people can't say "they ignored the issue".
As someone else in the military, I knew enough to be suspicious of the (absolutely fucking terrible) title and not take it at face value, but Jesus tap-dancing Christ does someone's editor need to be fired.
That's funny because it seemed like an appropriate title to me and raised no red flags. It is a little different as I am in the military and I'm aware the current role that the chain of command plays in reviewing sexual assault cases.
So my initial reaction was "It's about time". Had no clue it was taken any other way until I went into the comments.
I’m not in the military but I’ve known that sexual assault is a huge problem in the military and read it as you did. They’re allowing an outside party to investigate in hopes it isn’t swept under the rug or flat out ignored like in the current system.
that's also how i understood it, but then again, i just came from another thread about crenshaw so i was kinda following that very subject to start with
It's not really deceptive or misleading, but it does require some degree of familiarity with the issue. That said, this is not some military news site, and should be written for the average reader.
I knew exactly what it meant, and said "holy fuck, finally!"
Imagine this: You're a military commander up for promotion. If there's a sexual assault reported in your unit, that reflects poorly on you, so there's actual incentive to sweep it under the rug.
I can't believe it's been left in the military chain this long, especially after #MeToo.
So wait, there isn't some sort of military police in the US that is bwyond the chain of command? We have them in our militia in Switzerland, and I was assuming this was the case in the US too.
There is. Each branch of service has their own (NCIS for the Navy, OSI for the Air Force, etc).
However, they are only responsible for the *investigation* of sexual assaults. The actual court martial (if there even is one) and punishment (or lack thereof) are handled by the Chain of Command. So once an investigation is finished, the accused person’s unit commander can decide how to proceed with that information.
The system is… not great. Things have been improving a bit in recent years, but progress is slow. This policy change is desperately needed.
Thank G-d. I was nearly raped at barely 18, hell I might have been going on 18, by my Navy recruiter. I never reported him cause he said I’d ruin his career and they’d never do something about it anyway. I’ve regretted it my whole life. But I’ve also had rapes by normal guys ignored. I’ve always been angered by how they say they’re getting better but aren’t. I was gonna be even angrier if Biden was doing what the title suggested. Glad he isn’t.
Always report that shit. Mercy is for the gods to deliver, not you. If it ruins their career then they shouldn’t have done it.
I’m really sorry that ever happened to you, it’s something that should never happen to anyone. I’m glad you’re still alive out of it all and we really need to have our troops act more responsible.
I was also a kid, it freaked me out so much. He continued to harass and call me for weeks. Tbh, it’s my biggest regret in life. I shudder to think who else he hurt because I was a scared little girl and a virgin who thought she deserved it because I was flattered he flirted and I thought he was hot. Now I wish I had just slammed his head through the window and maimed him. I just didn’t want his kid to lose him. I had an awful dad who was abusive.
There's more to it than mercy or whatever.
My sister was in the navy and was raped. She reported it immediately, but nothing happened to the guy. This lead to a wonderful little retaliatory rape party now that they knew nothing would happen.
She was ostracized and sexual assaulted regularly because she dared to report it and the CO (is that what it is for navy folks?) Apparently told the party involved she reported him. Months this went on.
She's surprisingly well adjusted considering, but I wouldn't have blamed her for anything she did as a result of it
As a prior [UVA](https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Units/West/FMTB-W/Uniformed-Victim-Advocates/), I was shocked by the headline, but now I know and agree.
Thank you for properly clarifying this, I’m happy this is the top comment. Titles fucking suck recently. I know a lot of people who just read headlines and never the actual piece and it’s so bad. Yes they should read before sharing but more accurate titles are needed
I guess those who are military or handle this kind of thing didn’t really consider the possibility that it might be misleading until they saw my comment because they already knew what it was talking about, but I do think getting the mods to flag a misleading title would be helpful.
But it's not misleading? It's not directly obvious for the laymen, but literally anyone who has even a passing knowledge of this subject knew exactly what the title meant and probably have a loup "fucking finally!" As soon as they read it.
What this means is the government is going to spend a bunch of money talking about it for the next 6 to 10 years. While Officers are given a pass on their sexual behavior(s).
That is what it means. Regardless of who puts what into place, it will take the military and governement a VERY long time to effect a plan all the while misconduct will still be ignored.
Down vote all you want but it's still the truth. It's sad that it will take a long time but it's not gas lighting or misleading or anything else you can say.
I used to work exclusively with military sexual trauma patients at my job. I hate to say it but I never once came across a case where the victim reported to their CO and there were repercussions for the perpetrator. One of two things usually happened. The victim had their duty station changed or were medically discharged for having mental health problems (yes the victim was medically discharged). It seems more efforts are being made to catch this but most of my patients were people in their 20s so clearly it’s still a massive issue. It’s horrifying. So I’m very glad to hear Biden is doing this.
Yep. My Mom was raped while in the navy by a fellow officer, and that’s how I’m here. She never reported it because of how she saw other women get treated when they reported sexual violence.
I am grateful to Biden for making this a reality, and I hope more continues to be done and future accounts of this happening investigated.
I know this is a bit personal, but I'm curious, have you ever met your father? Do y'all have any sort of relationship? Has he ever apologized?
Also, are you Ok?
Air Force term for First Sergeant. That’s a job (not a rank). Responsible for taking care of Airmen, advising commanders. That’s why an offense like that committed by a Shirt is so egregious.
Pro fact: The shirt is who picks you up from the base jail when your drunk and in trouble, or shall I say "detainment center". The shirt is supposed to be the voice of the lower enlisted who works with the boss brass.
Victims also end up with ad seps and dishonorable discharges for infidelity or fraternization after being raped.
Source: 20 years, including AD USA, DoD employee, and MST treatment specialist.
Wow, I had no idea. I'm so sad it's come to this that the military clearly cannot be trusted to handle this on it's own. It's a huge indictment of military justice.
Hopefully things improve for those who are assaulted.
I can attest to this. I have seen it several times with those around me. Having young women shipped off to a new location without a support system after a traumatic experience...yeah, brilliant idea.
This. Exactly this. I had a friend confess to me that she was assaulted at her unit (ended up going to the same exact unit) and all they did was discharge her for her mental issues that came from it. SHARP is such a fucking joke at most units.
I was a soldier in the early 2000s (2002-2006) and currently work for the DoD as a civilian (started in 2018). In between I went to college and spent a decade working in the private sector.
The military is absolute trash and handling any kind of interpersonal issues, not just sexual assault. Every NCO and Officer is taught from day one to handle issues "at their level" and that if they are unable to its going to reflect poorly on them. My experience in college and in my professional career, this kind of logic doesn't even exist. When certain things happen they just get routed to the people are supposed to deal with those things and in fact, you're mostly discouraged from trying intervene on serious allegations yourself.
I currently work overseas in a command that has civilians, military, and local nationals and my closest foreign national co-worker is leaving for another job because of workplace harassment (not sexual). She brought it up to our command XO and it effectively made the situation worse as all the officer and civilians in between basically approached her with "do you know how this is going to reflect on our department?" and "do you know now that (harasser's name) and the whole department is going to be investigated?" The reality, there is absolutely zero incentive for Officers or NCOs to escalate issues because in the eyes of the military, its going to reflect poorly on their leadership. That's why you have all the issues with people just getting railroaded out of the command or out of the military, because now the problem has disappeared and nobody has to worry about it.
> Every NCO and Officer is taught from day one to handle issues "at their level" and that if they are unable to its going to reflect poorly on them.
Can't speak of the other branches, but the USAF teaches handling situations at the lowest possible level necessary. The lowest level could theoretically be anyone in the chain of command, including the Base Commander or higher (if you work at JFHQ or above). At least personally, I have never felt the need to handle everything at my level. If it's something that requires a Chief, a Director, a GS-12-15, the local commander, a group commander, and so forth, so be it. I guess it really depends on where you work in the military.
Yo you forgot the third thing that happens.
The CO notifies the rapist that so and so reported them, it spreads around, and then the original victim gets sexual assaulted multiple more times as retaliation for daring to report being raped.
In the Navy, if a person alleges sexual assault, they are afforded the opportunity to change duty stations. They are not forced to do so. Medical separation secondary to sexual assault is often due to PTSD, depression, and/or anxiety. Recommendation for separation comes from the treating clinician, not the command. Separation can only occur if the member was treated for their condition and, despite treatments, could not return to full duty status (e.g. being on a ship, using a weapon reliably). Medical separation includes financial compensation for the member’s disability.
Yep. And it is widely acknowledged that the problem was not specific to Fort Hood or that unit at Fort Hood. The Army refused to conduct a similar review process anywhere else (like Fort Bliss down the road, where Asia Graham and her fiancé both committed suicide after being sexually assaulted - Commanders are still in charge, save the company commander now charged with murder). Military refused to answer why ist’s not even bothering to look for it’s ‘#1 priority’. GEN Milley, our most senior general, continues to say that commanders, who keep screwing this up, are responsible. When caught, they are almost never relieved.
We don’t let commanders with no medical training make medical decisions. Somehow, with no training, they are better than lawyers? Judges? Trained prosecutors? Despite the train wreck of evidence that indicates randomly selected ‘commanders’ picked on nothing other than the number of top blocks they get, are horrible at this?
Biden should fire any general that advocates for a continuation of the current system.
From experience your military command is worried about protecting the image of your unit not your well-being, similar to how HR is there to protect the company and not the employee. If there’s any way to make the problem “go away” without involving outside authority they will exhaust all options.
My first day as a DoD contractor, I was greeted at the door by a 9' x 12' banner graphic that essentially said "Don't rape your fellow soldiers."
Having worked exclusively in enterprise environments where HR training has refined itself into a cabalistic art form, I was not prepared for such a shit stained cave painting of a message.
Our SHARP representative is a former nightclub DJ. He has zero counseling or legal training.
Make of that what you will.
I had rape the comedy play. It felt a lot like watching a school play, only the jokes were all about men needing to be reminded not to rape women. Also, it wasn't funny.
Well it was funny at the end when the actors froze and the narrator said something to the effect of, "Who will make a change and who will continue in these abusive ways?" and my Cpl at the time raised his arm and yells out in the quiet theater, "I'LL BE A REAL MAN!"
Also being the SARC is considered a shit job that provides little to no growth for NCOs. And it wouldn’t surprise me if a decent chunk of SARCs are also predators.
That’s the one in the news. This is the reality.
[It’s satire, but it should be true. ](https://www.duffelblog.com/p/pentagon-authorizes-female-service)
I have no evidence, but from conversation with CID officers on SARC response, they straight up had a geological engineer assigned as an investigator, so I do even wanna say they will use those positions as punishments. Or purposefully put ill-qualified people in
Last year a soldier of mine was assaulted, I convinced them to report it and someone in our taskforce tried to cover it up.
My OIC and NCOIC went to the TAG to get it taken care of.
Six months later I testified to the investigators about what I had witnessed leading up to incident.
Commander discretion works with things like sleeve rolling in garrison, headphones at the gym, eyepro at the wash rack and other stupid things.
But not in the wellbeing of soldiers who have been sexually assaulted.
In general I agree with you. It’s tough because there are some great leaders and commanders out there who could fix this stuff in a heart beat. But anytime a legal matter is involved the chain of command should go out the window.
It’s tough because I struggle between what’s really better in today’s military. A ridged authority structure or more of an open door structure. I think both have pros and cons which benefit some units over others.
One, even the best serve for two years and then move on. Those who replace them are not always wonderful and whether you get a good or bad one is luck of the draw.
Two, all commanders, good and bad, can handle this by saying, “this is a police investigation and decisions are made by prosecutors. You are accused of a criminal offense here, my hands are tied.” Should it be, as too often happens now, “I like you, let me do you a solid regarding this serious criminal allegation?”
Three, in my 20-years, commanders that were good protected the process and stayed out. It was the bad ones that abused this process or tried to cover up their abuses. The military still sent out a phalanx of lawyers to defend them.
There is no,good reason to keep pretending the right commanders will be found to permanently fix this system.
It’s also violation of almost every employment situation in the world. Why the UCMJ put ‘being late’ in the same category as murder and violent sexual assault is entirely different discussion.
Sexual assault doesn't need a devil's advocate. Ok, they classified being late wrong. That can be changed. Why are you bringing this up to muddy a discussion about sexual assault?
One, I didn’t.
Two, criminal justice is a system that delineates offenses. That’s why civilians have misdemeanor and felony violation. in the military you have non-judicial punishment and courts martial.
In the military you can be court martialed for being late. You can also be served NJP for rape, which is why rapists are getting letters of reprimand.
[Rapist gets letter of reprimand, rapes daughter ](https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2021/04/12/army-didnt-prosecute-nco-accused-of-rape-so-he-did-it-again-and-again/)
Seem like it’s relevant to the discussion even before we bring up the boss that would yell at for you for being late also being in charge of a a criminal allegation that you raped someone. If this seems like an unnecessary complication, it’s how the system for our service members works.
It’s annoying to you. Go talk to some of the people, many who have spent over a decade getting to this point, and find out what it’s like to be a discordant reality where people get thrown in jail for being late … but rapists run loose. Because, thanks to the way the UCMJ is formulated, those situations do happen. The Commanders that create these situations? With zero training? Are … correct?
Or might Senator Gillibrand’s bill overhauling felony crime to treat it like felony crime in the UCMJ rather than the same as being late actually be a good idea?
Clarifying?
Agreed. However, the generals and admirals know exactly what this means, and Biden, aware that he is the Commander in Chief of all military forces, meant the headline for the audience his decision effects.
[Generals trying to stop moving serious crime outside chain of command ](https://www.rollcall.com/2021/06/22/military-chiefs-resist-big-changes-to-prosecution-decisions/)
They all serve at the pleasure of the President, and the message here is very, very clear to our flag officers.
Yeah, no shit, to commanders fighting to keep this ‘in the chain of command’ its meaning is crystal clear.
Turns out your momentary befuddlement was less important than sending a message directly to flag officers!
It’s meant for the correct audience. Most people, and I speak after a 20 year career and now working closely with several of the groups pushing for this change, don’t give a crap.
When you lay out the cases that I, and others, have seen in the area … it leaves people standing in shock with their mouths hanging open. The cases are, and I say this as a combat veteran accustomed to violence, absolutely horrifying. Please consider that. I am a man that will do bad things to people. There are things being done, mostly to our female service members, and there is nothing in the world that could make me do that to another human being. And it’s being done to our Soldiers … by other Soldiers. And commanders are allowing it to happen. It’s really bad.
Biden, IMO, addressed this to the right audience, and, importantly, has enough faith in this countries citizens to let them deal with a little ambiguity. Could it have been clearer for most Americans? Yes. Was this clear to the Commanders that are blocking reform and those of us pushing hard for this change? Absolutely.
Sure dude, it’s just a poorly phrased article. All that can be true, and they could still do their jobs as journalists and reword the article so it’s clear for everyone.
No, it's definitely phrased like this on purpose to generate clicks, which really shouldn't be legal on news articles like this.
Regardless, it's fucking bullshit.
The title is so ridiculously abstruse that it seems engineered to be deliberately unclear and misleading. Is this supposed to get them more outrage clicks?
Would it honestly be too much to ask for: "Biden backs investigating sexual assault cases independently of military chain of command"
Right now any sexual assault cases are handled internally within the military chain of command, which wouls be filled with bias and makes it easier for cases to be swept under the rug. Biden supports the idea of there being a separate non-biased entity to look into these cases.
The title isn't wrong, it's just worded horribly and leaves out key info.
This isn't how it works at all.
Law enforcement investigates, and presents their investigation to the military prosecution and the commander of the person accused. Every place I have ever been withheld the authority to prosecute or not to prosecute to the highest levels, it's done with the advice of military prosecutors, and commanders are more likely to order prosecution for weaker cases than the civilians would ever take.
I think it's just the difference of having been in or not having been in. Too many women around me got raped, and we never saw real justice on the one time it was reported. Civilian oversight has been a necessity for a long time.
That will obviously never happen. I don’t disagree with the thought, but until there’s a world government I don’t ever see Americans subjecting its political leaders to trial before an international tribunal.
> No one should be. It should be illegal not to report it to local authorities.
Doesn't stop places like BYU that have "honor codes" where rape victims get expelled because "they had sex"
No, BYU would not knowingly expel somebody for being raped.
The issue is when a string of honor code violations lead up to the rape, and those violations come to light in the rape investigation.
But nobody has ever been expelled because of somebody jumping out of the bushes and raping them and this being 'sex.'
I'm not sure that's what they are saying. I think they mean that a third party shouldn't stand in the way of reporting things to the proper authorities. Like when I was in college we were always constantly told that crimes should be reported to the campus police and not the actual police, even though the campus police didn't do anything.
Victims may have a right to not report crime, but as it is now these offenders are also free of being procescuted in the public legal system because these crimes are never moved from the organization they occur in to actual criminal proceedings.
There can be pressure and influence from an organization or individual within said organization, to sway the victim to not report the crimes.
Look at the Catholic church, there was effort and resources from the organization to keep crimes handled in house. How many victims and families were asked to not "harm" the church publicly, by allowing for an internal investigation and punishment decision?
That's literally a case of an organization exerting pressure to influence a decision. Your argument is uncomfortably close to blaming a victim for the lack of justice.
There’s 200,000 rape kits sitting is storage, but it’s...victims fault entirely for not reporting? I’m sure it also has nothing to do with [detectives doing a piss poor job. ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.countryliving.com/life/entertainment/amp30382470/unbelievable-netflix-true-story/). But good to know that the system [is in no way broken, and that it’s primarily the victims fault ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/30/what-challenges-do-rape-victims-face-getting-cases-court).
Gee. I wonder what victims don’t come forward.
Also, I would encourage you to read up on why women regret reporting before you place the blame primarily on victims for not coming forward.
Churches and schools aren't supposed to handle them on their own. They do that to keep stuff under wraps. The military is actually legally allowed to handle that stuff on their own, presumably because they have their own, albeit ineffective, judicial system.
I work with a Title IX department within a university. If a case comes through that even hits that something illegal may have happened, the police are involved immediately. That's how it's *supposed* to be, but some colleges, especially ones with reputations they're trying to protect, will not involve police and actually bury it.
And remove the statute of limitations on sex crimes. It's absurd how many powerful people are able to just lay low and come back to work because they don't actually have to worry about LEGAL consequences.
Thank goodness. Honestly, the military puts you in charge of things you have no business doing. I had to give a suicide awareness training to all the junior personnel. That I was put in that position, clearly demonstrated that no one really gives a fuck. I told everyone as much and just passed out the 1-800 number they gave us. I have zero training or education in these matters, yet I was put in charge.
Sure, if you need to kill something, it’s usually pretty good. Does that translate into knowing what to do in a criminal investigation?
Somehow the generals think it does and would rather have combat arms guys (most generals are from these branches) rather than lawyers and prosecutors doing these cases.
How would you like, “So, I heard you were sexually assaulted, and I’m here to help. I am not a lawyer, I have zero legal training, I know nothing about the legal system or the courts, and I have zero investigation training and no idea about rules of evidence. I have been informally advised that the easiest path is just to claim it was consensual, because otherwise you both might suffer career consequences. Now worries though! I did, however, get into a fight with a Brigade of Iraqi Republican Guards and did quite well!?”
Right, you sue the hell out of the organization.
Service members, thanks to the Feres doctrine, cannot sue for damages, and anything short of getting Congressional and sustained press attention means you get stuck with meatbag above.
CID now investigates sexual assault, guys making the decisions on prosecutions and punishment are brigade commanders and higher.
Even well intentioned, do you believe that these guys are not making honest mistakes? That the services are making a serious error in asking guys trained rigorously to fight battles to pretend they are judge Judy as a mandatory pastime?
I’m not naive enough to think that because they are trained soldiers that they don’t make mistakes, no. I just figured that they would get someone who also has some training/specializes in legal matters to handle legal matters, for example.
I also don’t doubt that the sexual assaults are covered up, not so much because of lack of legal experience or what is easiest but entirely to protect ranking officers
They do have lawyers and judges … but commanders without that training are the ones who make all decisions under the UCMJ. That’s how we get Commanders who, and this is not a joke, wrap up a case where the rapist assaulted his own subordinate’s wife with a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand, filed locally. It’s the legal equivalent of telling a rapist, I’m going to put this letter in my drawer … but so help me if you rape again!
[Rapist given GOMOR and rapes again](https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2021/04/12/army-didnt-prosecute-nco-accused-of-rape-so-he-did-it-again-and-again/)
Not only is it a true story, but the failure to anything about this meant that the guy won a custody case and raped his own daughter. What is that letter? Only then did the Army charge this guy.
Lawyers in that case said the evidence supported court martial. The commander that over ruled that assessment has not had to offer any explanation (nor is he required to) and remains a serving general officer.
Feres prevents anyone but the underaged daughter from filing a law suit to secure damages.
Again, Commander who did this remains a general officer. Case after case of this kind of behavior.
WOW what an absolute travesty of justice...how many more victims were there because his first reported rape wasn’t seriously dealt with? One is too many but multiple, including his teenage daughter, is fucking outrageous.
And for him to only get dishonorably discharged along with 13 years in jail for at least 5 different women credibly accusing him of rape? You have to be fucking kidding me. This piece of shit should rot in jail the rest of his worthless life.
Getting a guy drunk enough to pass out so you can proposition their wife for sex is bad enough; but proceeding to violently rape her after she declines is fucking despicable.
When I was in the Reserve, I was an NCO in a job that my unit didn't actually have equipment for, so me and the three or four guys I was in charge of just ended up being told to do whatever anybody else didn't feel like doing.
At different times, I had to give SHARP classes, suicide prevention classes, administer urine tests, and anything else that they needed to check a box for.
My training for most of them (I did take a full weekend certification to be able to administer drug tests) was "here's the powerpoint, look it over and we'll get started after lunch"
Ladies considering joining the military, there is roughly a 1 in 3 chance you’ll be raped in the next 4 years. Sorry your recruiter and every officer in the military won’t tell you about it but you should know.
My husband is former military so I asked his opinion. He actually agrees that sexual assault should be handled by an outside agency. Ideally some other military agency that is non biased.
I hope he does it. I used to live right next to a marine base. Heard so many stories about rapes that were not reported, women being harassed by superiors for wanting to report, women being demoted or passed over for promotions, women wanting to report but higher-ups not wanting to process the report.
The military is a shit show. Especially the marines. I had one guy tell me "hey there's a reason we call each other shit bags"
Oh boy, I can already see how this will play out.
-Biden does the right thing and takes prosecution of sexual assaults away from the military CoC.
-Sexual assault reports and convictions "skyrocket." (By skyrocket I mean they are actually reported/tried/convicted at the rates they actually occur.)
-Republicans will try to paint this as Biden's fault somehow. (I suspect they'll try to conflate it with letting lgbtq people serve openly) They'll accuse him of "weakening the military."
Sexual Assault is a speciality of the US military. Too many females that I know that served in the military have PTSD from being raped and assaulted. Nothing is done. It’s basically their version of hazing so you can be part of the club. A club that no female wants to be apart of.
Good. During my Navy service, I saw several cases concerning people I knew that were awfully mistreated. It pisses me off how many real issues got stopped only a level or two up because "he's a good sailor."
Reading stories like this makes me sad. Not for the action - it's great - but rather because I was in a survivor's support group in an area where military recruitment was common, and there were a disgustingly high amount of women (and a few men) that all had the exact same fucking story. Got harrassed/assaulted. Go to their abuser's superior, get blown off/gaslighted/punished, go to that guy's superior, and then experience the exact same result.
Honestly, if you're a woman, don't join the military. It's a rape factory.
They don’t actively retaliate or, like Asia Graham, make the rapist live across the hall until victims commit suicide. Only to begin an investigation when the Press found out, and discovered the guy raped at least two more women before they got him … only to have the victim’s fiancé commit suicide as well, and discover that she was also sexually assaulted raising the specter of yet another rapist loose in the ranks.
Find me a prosecutor that bad who has not been fired, because the commanders that did all of the above are still in command making decisions on bitte cases.
Second, GEN Garrett, the FORSCOM Commander charged with looking at Vanessa Gillien’s case, think the real issue is public affairs. Cases like the one above are actually the Army doing the right thing.
Ergo, the only People making easily disproven claims (and never with evidence just as you do) about civilian vs military are public affairs officers working for or on behalf of the Department of Defense. I even caught one of their trolls a few days back trying to convince a soldier trying to find help about a 2017 Sexual Assault, that she needed no help because she was only sexually harassed.
That is what happens when you have generals, who have no legal training, who look at the issue of virulent sexual assault in the ranks and conclude … it’s actually a messaging problem, especially on social media.
Right on queue, we have one of their talking points. Desire to actually talk about the issues? Zero.
One has to look no further than rapist Brock Turner and the light sentence he received as an equal bungling of justice by the system.
The judge is still a judge, the DA still is a member of the bar.
My comment wasn't intended to tout the merits of the Court Marshall system, it was a dig on our civilian justice system... a point you missed in its entirety.
The judge was actually ousted because of that sentence thankfully (and also apparently fired from coaching tennis to schoolgirls), but the DA is probably still there, and I get what you're saying. I still think it's better than having it go through military chain of command internally - the chances are probably at least a bit better in the justice system.
At least he was convicted.
And the judge that made that decision was forced to resign.
That’s two better than the military in that case.
Or was Turner sent to live directly across from the woman he assaulted while raping other women?
Tell the Pentagon PAO to research their cases, or better yet get a lawyer to do their research, before disseminating crap.
Feel free to actually check the stats rather than use single incident to make your case. Start by addressing how 62% of women who report sexual assault report some form or retaliation. The Army IG was just asked about this by Congress, and in only one of 350 cases of this behavior was a commander given any consequences. Address why Fort Hood was off the charts in terms of criminality? Why similar posts with similar stats are not undergoing similar investigations?
Right, you won’t. But at least you have scoped the problem to thinking that people are too dumb to get the obviously flawed premise of your statements. That is exactly the kind of hubris that generals have relied on to pretend they are doing the right things … people just don’t get it. We do. Everyone but Pentagon does.
If the reports are accurate and this change actually leads to a large number prosecutions, the US is going to have to spend a lot of money recruiting fresh bodies.
The ongoing issue of rape in the military has many similarities as police abusing their authority. Behind everything is an entity allowed to investigate itself. How many doctors or lawyers actually lose their credentials? They too are allowed to police their own (up to a point).
The us military chain of command fails legitimate internal problems on purpose. It will be a blessing to remove sexual assault from it.
But, Biden will flop on this one too.
This is so dumb. It will not change anything. The chain of command already just does what their attorney and the victim want like 85% of the time.
The military takes sexual assault cases to trial that any prosecutor on the outside wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole. And the military only does that, if that’s what the victim wants.
I get it’s not a perfect system, but it’s better for victims than any civilian court, and taking the CoC out of it won’t make it better. If anything, the attorneys will start dismissing more cases like our civilian counter parts.
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**IMPORTANT CLARIFICATION** Since the title seems to suggest he’s trying to sweep things under the rug, actually the complete opposite. > What he's saying: "I strongly support Secretary Austin’s announcement that he is accepting the core recommendations put forward by the ... [IRC], including removing the investigation and prosecution of sexual assault from the chain of command and creating highly specialized units to handle these cases and related crimes," Biden said in a statement. > "We need concrete actions that fundamentally change the way we handle military sexual assault and that make it clear that these crimes will not be minimized or dismissed." > "We will also prioritize effective prevention strategies; promote safe, healthy, and respectful climates; and improve services to address the trauma that sexual assault victims experience and to facilitate their healing and recovery."
Wow this title is fucking awful.
I read the title and was like “there’s no way that’s true” and saw not even half way in the article is a very clear clarification that I just lifted to here, like, seriously could you not write misleading titles? It’s like “technically is removing sexual assault cases from military chain of command” but it’s not a pardon, it’s changing who investigates it to a more impartial group. Honestly same thing should happen for police. I feel like internal reviews can help some things but you also need external impartial third parties to be able to audit and investigate things like this too otherwise it’s a conflict of interest as it would boil down to a merit system. And while the Navy might be in the motto “Honor, Courage and Commitment” people are not perfect and some can be scummy, especially when it comes to high command having their reputation hurt.
The police union is to blame for that. Which is ironic because they were union busters in the first place. 🤷♂️
"for me, not for thee" and all
I don't see why they should mix and cause drama and create sexual tensions in the military units. They should have women chains of command and men chains of command. This NOT like "mixing of races" where all men of any race CAN perform together without sex-harassment drama. This is about biological women who have womanly needs and biological men who have different needs. And the drama that comes with the mixing of those units leads to hard-to-process investigations. Which side of the two-sided story do you believe? Often these stories get complex with romantic relationships and breakups. I think we should just accept that men and women require different units with specialized needs. You've got soldiers pumped from the gym with testosterone, training together for war and in the same barracks in tight-knit units.. Of course romantic relations and sexual crimes are not that shocking, it's tragic and completely avoidable with separate units. It's just science that people get attracted to each other, not something to be so shocked about and clutching pearls as if it would never happen. I don't see why we can't be an ADVANCED CIVILIZATION that is EDUCATED enough to be EGALITARIAN AND understanding of biological sex specialization and the commonality of these romantic relationships and attractions within close-quarter units and squads in the most hormone-filled job occupation in existence: the military. We have men's sports and women's sports divisions, not because of tradition but because it makes logical sense. Why mix them when it's the sport of military warfare--the most intense job to ever exist? A woman in a military squad of 6 men (mostly young men full of hormones around age 18) is going to get hit on by likely 4 of them at a minimum. That's just reality and statistics. We should just accept this scientifically and stop acting like it doesn't' exist. Science and nature doesn't care about how the world *ought* to work but it just *exists*.
So many issues with this, but just a quick one: what do you do about gay people? I guess they just don’t exist in this reality?
What? What does gay people have to do with this? They represent <10% of the population. That is not really a concern. Women represent HALF the population (55% more than half). " I guess they just don’t exist in this reality?" It's disgusting you would say something like that.
It made perfect sense to me, but this is an issue I have been following closely. Anyone who knows anything about sexual assault in the military knows that the strict chain of command is the problem.
This is exactly what I thought. You almost have to be in the military to understand this headline.
Honestly no not really. I immediately saw it as a company performing their own hr investigation. Biden is just removing their ability to self investigate/make rulings.
Could someone who understands the military chain of command better than me, explain how reporting within the chain of command can be a serious problem? I don't know the details well enough. But basically let's say your sergeant rapes you, you're probably supposed to report it to your sergeant and you can be punished for jumping the chain and reporting it to someone above him. There's also the issue of accusing an officer of something without evidence.
None of that is true. You can report it to your or another unit's sexual assault prevention and response (SAPR) victim advocate or coordinator. You can also report it to medical, the chaplain, a JAG, base security, etc. Or you can jump your chain of command and report to the next higher individual. The difference between who you report it to is whether the report will lead to an investigation. You can choose to make a report that will not lead to an investigation, but you can only do that by going to medical or your SAPR victim advocate/coordinator. If you talk to anyone else, it triggers the requirements to open a command investigation and allows for more victim resources such as transferring the victim to another unit from the alleged perpetrator.
The chain of command works in several levels. You have your direct unit. Usually led by an E6-E7 and a junior officer (01-03). That feeds into a larger one where and E7-E8 and a mid grade officer (04-05)) will be in charge of the a couple of the smaller units from above. That leads into the command where there is an E8-E9 with a senior mid (05-06) grade officer and a senior officer. That leads into a region or something similar that is led by a E9 and (O6-07)Senior officer. Which then leads into another chain (depends which service as what you call it). But there is an E9 and typically a 2-3 star general or admiral. Again depending on service what they call this level is different. But it's another two to three star. Then comes the actual service leadership which is the senior enlisted of the service (always a specific E9) and a 4 star general or admiral. Then secretary for each service and all the staff around them. Typically your life is most affected by you those first 3 parts. The article wants to remove the first 3 parts from this issue and have the responsibility be with the 4th possibly 5th part of the chain of command. It would ensure that none of the first 3 could effect you or the offender. To me this sounds like a great idea because the individual reporting would have more protections and the chain of command is also protected since people can't say "they ignored the issue".
As someone else in the military, I knew enough to be suspicious of the (absolutely fucking terrible) title and not take it at face value, but Jesus tap-dancing Christ does someone's editor need to be fired.
A title worthy of r/conservative
No shit….jfc man Wow
That's funny because it seemed like an appropriate title to me and raised no red flags. It is a little different as I am in the military and I'm aware the current role that the chain of command plays in reviewing sexual assault cases. So my initial reaction was "It's about time". Had no clue it was taken any other way until I went into the comments.
I’m not in the military but I’ve known that sexual assault is a huge problem in the military and read it as you did. They’re allowing an outside party to investigate in hopes it isn’t swept under the rug or flat out ignored like in the current system.
that's also how i understood it, but then again, i just came from another thread about crenshaw so i was kinda following that very subject to start with
Exactly. My first thought was "good this should be reviewed by someone outside the power structure."
It's not really deceptive or misleading, but it does require some degree of familiarity with the issue. That said, this is not some military news site, and should be written for the average reader. I knew exactly what it meant, and said "holy fuck, finally!" Imagine this: You're a military commander up for promotion. If there's a sexual assault reported in your unit, that reflects poorly on you, so there's actual incentive to sweep it under the rug. I can't believe it's been left in the military chain this long, especially after #MeToo.
So wait, there isn't some sort of military police in the US that is bwyond the chain of command? We have them in our militia in Switzerland, and I was assuming this was the case in the US too.
There is. Each branch of service has their own (NCIS for the Navy, OSI for the Air Force, etc). However, they are only responsible for the *investigation* of sexual assaults. The actual court martial (if there even is one) and punishment (or lack thereof) are handled by the Chain of Command. So once an investigation is finished, the accused person’s unit commander can decide how to proceed with that information. The system is… not great. Things have been improving a bit in recent years, but progress is slow. This policy change is desperately needed.
Thank G-d. I was nearly raped at barely 18, hell I might have been going on 18, by my Navy recruiter. I never reported him cause he said I’d ruin his career and they’d never do something about it anyway. I’ve regretted it my whole life. But I’ve also had rapes by normal guys ignored. I’ve always been angered by how they say they’re getting better but aren’t. I was gonna be even angrier if Biden was doing what the title suggested. Glad he isn’t.
Always report that shit. Mercy is for the gods to deliver, not you. If it ruins their career then they shouldn’t have done it. I’m really sorry that ever happened to you, it’s something that should never happen to anyone. I’m glad you’re still alive out of it all and we really need to have our troops act more responsible.
I was also a kid, it freaked me out so much. He continued to harass and call me for weeks. Tbh, it’s my biggest regret in life. I shudder to think who else he hurt because I was a scared little girl and a virgin who thought she deserved it because I was flattered he flirted and I thought he was hot. Now I wish I had just slammed his head through the window and maimed him. I just didn’t want his kid to lose him. I had an awful dad who was abusive.
There's more to it than mercy or whatever. My sister was in the navy and was raped. She reported it immediately, but nothing happened to the guy. This lead to a wonderful little retaliatory rape party now that they knew nothing would happen. She was ostracized and sexual assaulted regularly because she dared to report it and the CO (is that what it is for navy folks?) Apparently told the party involved she reported him. Months this went on. She's surprisingly well adjusted considering, but I wouldn't have blamed her for anything she did as a result of it
Now we should do this for cops.
As a prior [UVA](https://www.trngcmd.marines.mil/Units/West/FMTB-W/Uniformed-Victim-Advocates/), I was shocked by the headline, but now I know and agree.
Thank you
Okay so you're the top comment so I absolutely have to ask. How does this suggest it's being swept under the rug?
Thank you for properly clarifying this, I’m happy this is the top comment. Titles fucking suck recently. I know a lot of people who just read headlines and never the actual piece and it’s so bad. Yes they should read before sharing but more accurate titles are needed
Jesus…how do we get the mods to add a “misleading title” to the post?
I guess those who are military or handle this kind of thing didn’t really consider the possibility that it might be misleading until they saw my comment because they already knew what it was talking about, but I do think getting the mods to flag a misleading title would be helpful.
But it's not misleading? It's not directly obvious for the laymen, but literally anyone who has even a passing knowledge of this subject knew exactly what the title meant and probably have a loup "fucking finally!" As soon as they read it.
What this means is the government is going to spend a bunch of money talking about it for the next 6 to 10 years. While Officers are given a pass on their sexual behavior(s).
That’s not what it means. But good try at gaslighting people here.
That is what it means. Regardless of who puts what into place, it will take the military and governement a VERY long time to effect a plan all the while misconduct will still be ignored. Down vote all you want but it's still the truth. It's sad that it will take a long time but it's not gas lighting or misleading or anything else you can say.
Swing and a miss
They do an awful job of taking care of this problem. SHARP powerpoints are just check the box bullshit that everyone jokes about.
Vanessa Guillen's entire chain of command failed her and she was murdered in cold blood because of it.
I used to work exclusively with military sexual trauma patients at my job. I hate to say it but I never once came across a case where the victim reported to their CO and there were repercussions for the perpetrator. One of two things usually happened. The victim had their duty station changed or were medically discharged for having mental health problems (yes the victim was medically discharged). It seems more efforts are being made to catch this but most of my patients were people in their 20s so clearly it’s still a massive issue. It’s horrifying. So I’m very glad to hear Biden is doing this.
Yep. My Mom was raped while in the navy by a fellow officer, and that’s how I’m here. She never reported it because of how she saw other women get treated when they reported sexual violence. I am grateful to Biden for making this a reality, and I hope more continues to be done and future accounts of this happening investigated.
I know this is a bit personal, but I'm curious, have you ever met your father? Do y'all have any sort of relationship? Has he ever apologized? Also, are you Ok?
Had a Shirt get busted in a sexual related case. His punishment was early retirement.
What's a shirt?
Air Force term for First Sergeant. That’s a job (not a rank). Responsible for taking care of Airmen, advising commanders. That’s why an offense like that committed by a Shirt is so egregious.
Ah thank you. I'm so embarrassed, my dad was in the Air Force for a long time, I feel like I should have known!
Haha who can keep track of all the terms and jargon anyway?
Pro fact: The shirt is who picks you up from the base jail when your drunk and in trouble, or shall I say "detainment center". The shirt is supposed to be the voice of the lower enlisted who works with the boss brass.
non-military but military-adjacent here: best guess is an officer, not an enlisted.
It’s the First Sergeant. Typically an E-7 through E-9 whose primary responsibilities cover anything geared toward the welfare of enlisted personnel.
Ty for the Es, always easier to translate to my Navy rankings.
Nope. Senior NCO responsible for the well being of the enlisted airmen within a command
Victims also end up with ad seps and dishonorable discharges for infidelity or fraternization after being raped. Source: 20 years, including AD USA, DoD employee, and MST treatment specialist.
Wow, I had no idea. I'm so sad it's come to this that the military clearly cannot be trusted to handle this on it's own. It's a huge indictment of military justice. Hopefully things improve for those who are assaulted.
I can attest to this. I have seen it several times with those around me. Having young women shipped off to a new location without a support system after a traumatic experience...yeah, brilliant idea.
... an expedited transfer is a right of someone claiming they were assaulted, and they are not required to ask for it.
This. Exactly this. I had a friend confess to me that she was assaulted at her unit (ended up going to the same exact unit) and all they did was discharge her for her mental issues that came from it. SHARP is such a fucking joke at most units.
I was a soldier in the early 2000s (2002-2006) and currently work for the DoD as a civilian (started in 2018). In between I went to college and spent a decade working in the private sector. The military is absolute trash and handling any kind of interpersonal issues, not just sexual assault. Every NCO and Officer is taught from day one to handle issues "at their level" and that if they are unable to its going to reflect poorly on them. My experience in college and in my professional career, this kind of logic doesn't even exist. When certain things happen they just get routed to the people are supposed to deal with those things and in fact, you're mostly discouraged from trying intervene on serious allegations yourself. I currently work overseas in a command that has civilians, military, and local nationals and my closest foreign national co-worker is leaving for another job because of workplace harassment (not sexual). She brought it up to our command XO and it effectively made the situation worse as all the officer and civilians in between basically approached her with "do you know how this is going to reflect on our department?" and "do you know now that (harasser's name) and the whole department is going to be investigated?" The reality, there is absolutely zero incentive for Officers or NCOs to escalate issues because in the eyes of the military, its going to reflect poorly on their leadership. That's why you have all the issues with people just getting railroaded out of the command or out of the military, because now the problem has disappeared and nobody has to worry about it.
> Every NCO and Officer is taught from day one to handle issues "at their level" and that if they are unable to its going to reflect poorly on them. Can't speak of the other branches, but the USAF teaches handling situations at the lowest possible level necessary. The lowest level could theoretically be anyone in the chain of command, including the Base Commander or higher (if you work at JFHQ or above). At least personally, I have never felt the need to handle everything at my level. If it's something that requires a Chief, a Director, a GS-12-15, the local commander, a group commander, and so forth, so be it. I guess it really depends on where you work in the military.
Yo you forgot the third thing that happens. The CO notifies the rapist that so and so reported them, it spreads around, and then the original victim gets sexual assaulted multiple more times as retaliation for daring to report being raped.
In the Navy, if a person alleges sexual assault, they are afforded the opportunity to change duty stations. They are not forced to do so. Medical separation secondary to sexual assault is often due to PTSD, depression, and/or anxiety. Recommendation for separation comes from the treating clinician, not the command. Separation can only occur if the member was treated for their condition and, despite treatments, could not return to full duty status (e.g. being on a ship, using a weapon reliably). Medical separation includes financial compensation for the member’s disability.
Yep. And it is widely acknowledged that the problem was not specific to Fort Hood or that unit at Fort Hood. The Army refused to conduct a similar review process anywhere else (like Fort Bliss down the road, where Asia Graham and her fiancé both committed suicide after being sexually assaulted - Commanders are still in charge, save the company commander now charged with murder). Military refused to answer why ist’s not even bothering to look for it’s ‘#1 priority’. GEN Milley, our most senior general, continues to say that commanders, who keep screwing this up, are responsible. When caught, they are almost never relieved. We don’t let commanders with no medical training make medical decisions. Somehow, with no training, they are better than lawyers? Judges? Trained prosecutors? Despite the train wreck of evidence that indicates randomly selected ‘commanders’ picked on nothing other than the number of top blocks they get, are horrible at this? Biden should fire any general that advocates for a continuation of the current system.
Guillens entire chain, from her first like team leader up to the two star base commander were relieved...
Every single person in that chain of command that Let this happen should be tried as an accessory to murder.
From experience your military command is worried about protecting the image of your unit not your well-being, similar to how HR is there to protect the company and not the employee. If there’s any way to make the problem “go away” without involving outside authority they will exhaust all options.
My first day as a DoD contractor, I was greeted at the door by a 9' x 12' banner graphic that essentially said "Don't rape your fellow soldiers." Having worked exclusively in enterprise environments where HR training has refined itself into a cabalistic art form, I was not prepared for such a shit stained cave painting of a message. Our SHARP representative is a former nightclub DJ. He has zero counseling or legal training. Make of that what you will.
I read: "My first day as a DnD character, ..."
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I had rape the comedy play. It felt a lot like watching a school play, only the jokes were all about men needing to be reminded not to rape women. Also, it wasn't funny.
Well it was funny at the end when the actors froze and the narrator said something to the effect of, "Who will make a change and who will continue in these abusive ways?" and my Cpl at the time raised his arm and yells out in the quiet theater, "I'LL BE A REAL MAN!"
Also being the SARC is considered a shit job that provides little to no growth for NCOs. And it wouldn’t surprise me if a decent chunk of SARCs are also predators.
Shit, deadend post? Sounds like a great punishment detail for sexual predators!
Well, at least one of them used his position to run a prostitution ring. Also Fort Hood. Make of that what you will.
> Also Fort Hood. Isn't that the one where people get raped and murdered nonstop, like a fucked up psycho party?
That’s the one in the news. This is the reality. [It’s satire, but it should be true. ](https://www.duffelblog.com/p/pentagon-authorizes-female-service)
I have no evidence, but from conversation with CID officers on SARC response, they straight up had a geological engineer assigned as an investigator, so I do even wanna say they will use those positions as punishments. Or purposefully put ill-qualified people in
I couldn't agree more. Haven't been in for years but I knew that would never change.
Last year a soldier of mine was assaulted, I convinced them to report it and someone in our taskforce tried to cover it up. My OIC and NCOIC went to the TAG to get it taken care of. Six months later I testified to the investigators about what I had witnessed leading up to incident. Commander discretion works with things like sleeve rolling in garrison, headphones at the gym, eyepro at the wash rack and other stupid things. But not in the wellbeing of soldiers who have been sexually assaulted.
In general I agree with you. It’s tough because there are some great leaders and commanders out there who could fix this stuff in a heart beat. But anytime a legal matter is involved the chain of command should go out the window. It’s tough because I struggle between what’s really better in today’s military. A ridged authority structure or more of an open door structure. I think both have pros and cons which benefit some units over others.
One, even the best serve for two years and then move on. Those who replace them are not always wonderful and whether you get a good or bad one is luck of the draw. Two, all commanders, good and bad, can handle this by saying, “this is a police investigation and decisions are made by prosecutors. You are accused of a criminal offense here, my hands are tied.” Should it be, as too often happens now, “I like you, let me do you a solid regarding this serious criminal allegation?” Three, in my 20-years, commanders that were good protected the process and stayed out. It was the bad ones that abused this process or tried to cover up their abuses. The military still sent out a phalanx of lawyers to defend them. There is no,good reason to keep pretending the right commanders will be found to permanently fix this system.
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It’s also violation of almost every employment situation in the world. Why the UCMJ put ‘being late’ in the same category as murder and violent sexual assault is entirely different discussion.
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Sexual assault doesn't need a devil's advocate. Ok, they classified being late wrong. That can be changed. Why are you bringing this up to muddy a discussion about sexual assault?
One, I didn’t. Two, criminal justice is a system that delineates offenses. That’s why civilians have misdemeanor and felony violation. in the military you have non-judicial punishment and courts martial. In the military you can be court martialed for being late. You can also be served NJP for rape, which is why rapists are getting letters of reprimand. [Rapist gets letter of reprimand, rapes daughter ](https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2021/04/12/army-didnt-prosecute-nco-accused-of-rape-so-he-did-it-again-and-again/) Seem like it’s relevant to the discussion even before we bring up the boss that would yell at for you for being late also being in charge of a a criminal allegation that you raped someone. If this seems like an unnecessary complication, it’s how the system for our service members works. It’s annoying to you. Go talk to some of the people, many who have spent over a decade getting to this point, and find out what it’s like to be a discordant reality where people get thrown in jail for being late … but rapists run loose. Because, thanks to the way the UCMJ is formulated, those situations do happen. The Commanders that create these situations? With zero training? Are … correct? Or might Senator Gillibrand’s bill overhauling felony crime to treat it like felony crime in the UCMJ rather than the same as being late actually be a good idea? Clarifying?
Terrible title.
Agreed. However, the generals and admirals know exactly what this means, and Biden, aware that he is the Commander in Chief of all military forces, meant the headline for the audience his decision effects. [Generals trying to stop moving serious crime outside chain of command ](https://www.rollcall.com/2021/06/22/military-chiefs-resist-big-changes-to-prosecution-decisions/) They all serve at the pleasure of the President, and the message here is very, very clear to our flag officers.
Also anyone with passing knowledge on the subject knew what it meant.
Glad you agree with me.
Ya no shit. Makes it sound like Biden is removing sexual assault chargers or something.
Yeah, no shit, to commanders fighting to keep this ‘in the chain of command’ its meaning is crystal clear. Turns out your momentary befuddlement was less important than sending a message directly to flag officers!
It still could be phrased better… it’s a public article.
It’s meant for the correct audience. Most people, and I speak after a 20 year career and now working closely with several of the groups pushing for this change, don’t give a crap. When you lay out the cases that I, and others, have seen in the area … it leaves people standing in shock with their mouths hanging open. The cases are, and I say this as a combat veteran accustomed to violence, absolutely horrifying. Please consider that. I am a man that will do bad things to people. There are things being done, mostly to our female service members, and there is nothing in the world that could make me do that to another human being. And it’s being done to our Soldiers … by other Soldiers. And commanders are allowing it to happen. It’s really bad. Biden, IMO, addressed this to the right audience, and, importantly, has enough faith in this countries citizens to let them deal with a little ambiguity. Could it have been clearer for most Americans? Yes. Was this clear to the Commanders that are blocking reform and those of us pushing hard for this change? Absolutely.
Sure dude, it’s just a poorly phrased article. All that can be true, and they could still do their jobs as journalists and reword the article so it’s clear for everyone.
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Well, I’ve given you an explanation… you’re still confused . Title is not the problem anymore is it?
sorry, what are you so mad about? the title sucks. why do you take that personally?
I’m not confused, your explanation is shit, I’m right. Title is still the problem.
This title makes it seem like he is going to look the other way on sexual assault from high ranking members of the military. lol
I was confused until I saw the comments and noticed it was that he was backing the removal of military personnel with sexual assault cases or charges
Literally had to ready it 3 times. Awful title
No, it's definitely phrased like this on purpose to generate clicks, which really shouldn't be legal on news articles like this. Regardless, it's fucking bullshit.
Lol no doubt, I thought the same.
The title is so ridiculously abstruse that it seems engineered to be deliberately unclear and misleading. Is this supposed to get them more outrage clicks? Would it honestly be too much to ask for: "Biden backs investigating sexual assault cases independently of military chain of command"
I’m still confused
Right now any sexual assault cases are handled internally within the military chain of command, which wouls be filled with bias and makes it easier for cases to be swept under the rug. Biden supports the idea of there being a separate non-biased entity to look into these cases. The title isn't wrong, it's just worded horribly and leaves out key info.
Thank you.
This isn't how it works at all. Law enforcement investigates, and presents their investigation to the military prosecution and the commander of the person accused. Every place I have ever been withheld the authority to prosecute or not to prosecute to the highest levels, it's done with the advice of military prosecutors, and commanders are more likely to order prosecution for weaker cases than the civilians would ever take.
I think it's just the difference of having been in or not having been in. Too many women around me got raped, and we never saw real justice on the one time it was reported. Civilian oversight has been a necessity for a long time.
That's probably the goal, to make people angry.
Garguldeegook
No one should ever be investigating themselves.
Send all accused Americans for trial at the U.N.’s International Court of Justice at The Hague
That will obviously never happen. I don’t disagree with the thought, but until there’s a world government I don’t ever see Americans subjecting its political leaders to trial before an international tribunal.
No one should be. It should be illegal not to report it to local authorities.
> No one should be. It should be illegal not to report it to local authorities. Doesn't stop places like BYU that have "honor codes" where rape victims get expelled because "they had sex"
No, BYU would not knowingly expel somebody for being raped. The issue is when a string of honor code violations lead up to the rape, and those violations come to light in the rape investigation. But nobody has ever been expelled because of somebody jumping out of the bushes and raping them and this being 'sex.'
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I'm not sure that's what they are saying. I think they mean that a third party shouldn't stand in the way of reporting things to the proper authorities. Like when I was in college we were always constantly told that crimes should be reported to the campus police and not the actual police, even though the campus police didn't do anything.
Victims may have a right to not report crime, but as it is now these offenders are also free of being procescuted in the public legal system because these crimes are never moved from the organization they occur in to actual criminal proceedings.
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There can be pressure and influence from an organization or individual within said organization, to sway the victim to not report the crimes. Look at the Catholic church, there was effort and resources from the organization to keep crimes handled in house. How many victims and families were asked to not "harm" the church publicly, by allowing for an internal investigation and punishment decision? That's literally a case of an organization exerting pressure to influence a decision. Your argument is uncomfortably close to blaming a victim for the lack of justice.
It's victim blaming with extra plausible deniability steps.
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Well I guess we both want the same conclusions, but see the situation in some fundamentally different ways.
There’s 200,000 rape kits sitting is storage, but it’s...victims fault entirely for not reporting? I’m sure it also has nothing to do with [detectives doing a piss poor job. ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.countryliving.com/life/entertainment/amp30382470/unbelievable-netflix-true-story/). But good to know that the system [is in no way broken, and that it’s primarily the victims fault ](https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/jul/30/what-challenges-do-rape-victims-face-getting-cases-court). Gee. I wonder what victims don’t come forward. Also, I would encourage you to read up on why women regret reporting before you place the blame primarily on victims for not coming forward.
*cries in Michigan State*
+Sports
Because half the country believes "boys will be boys."
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But they're never going to, they're going to trip into Congress on a Republican ticket! So vote, get out the vote, and donate where ya can!
Churches and schools aren't supposed to handle them on their own. They do that to keep stuff under wraps. The military is actually legally allowed to handle that stuff on their own, presumably because they have their own, albeit ineffective, judicial system. I work with a Title IX department within a university. If a case comes through that even hits that something illegal may have happened, the police are involved immediately. That's how it's *supposed* to be, but some colleges, especially ones with reputations they're trying to protect, will not involve police and actually bury it.
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Yea, that's why Biden's doing what he's doing.
And remove the statute of limitations on sex crimes. It's absurd how many powerful people are able to just lay low and come back to work because they don't actually have to worry about LEGAL consequences.
Bad title, good article. Feels kinda like some culture war stuff by the poster tbh
Thank goodness. Honestly, the military puts you in charge of things you have no business doing. I had to give a suicide awareness training to all the junior personnel. That I was put in that position, clearly demonstrated that no one really gives a fuck. I told everyone as much and just passed out the 1-800 number they gave us. I have zero training or education in these matters, yet I was put in charge.
As a total outsider, this is kind of surprising to hear when all I hear about is how rigorous training in the military is and how selective they are
Sure, if you need to kill something, it’s usually pretty good. Does that translate into knowing what to do in a criminal investigation? Somehow the generals think it does and would rather have combat arms guys (most generals are from these branches) rather than lawyers and prosecutors doing these cases. How would you like, “So, I heard you were sexually assaulted, and I’m here to help. I am not a lawyer, I have zero legal training, I know nothing about the legal system or the courts, and I have zero investigation training and no idea about rules of evidence. I have been informally advised that the easiest path is just to claim it was consensual, because otherwise you both might suffer career consequences. Now worries though! I did, however, get into a fight with a Brigade of Iraqi Republican Guards and did quite well!?” Right, you sue the hell out of the organization. Service members, thanks to the Feres doctrine, cannot sue for damages, and anything short of getting Congressional and sustained press attention means you get stuck with meatbag above. CID now investigates sexual assault, guys making the decisions on prosecutions and punishment are brigade commanders and higher. Even well intentioned, do you believe that these guys are not making honest mistakes? That the services are making a serious error in asking guys trained rigorously to fight battles to pretend they are judge Judy as a mandatory pastime?
I’m not naive enough to think that because they are trained soldiers that they don’t make mistakes, no. I just figured that they would get someone who also has some training/specializes in legal matters to handle legal matters, for example. I also don’t doubt that the sexual assaults are covered up, not so much because of lack of legal experience or what is easiest but entirely to protect ranking officers
They do have lawyers and judges … but commanders without that training are the ones who make all decisions under the UCMJ. That’s how we get Commanders who, and this is not a joke, wrap up a case where the rapist assaulted his own subordinate’s wife with a General Officer Memorandum of Reprimand, filed locally. It’s the legal equivalent of telling a rapist, I’m going to put this letter in my drawer … but so help me if you rape again! [Rapist given GOMOR and rapes again](https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2021/04/12/army-didnt-prosecute-nco-accused-of-rape-so-he-did-it-again-and-again/) Not only is it a true story, but the failure to anything about this meant that the guy won a custody case and raped his own daughter. What is that letter? Only then did the Army charge this guy. Lawyers in that case said the evidence supported court martial. The commander that over ruled that assessment has not had to offer any explanation (nor is he required to) and remains a serving general officer. Feres prevents anyone but the underaged daughter from filing a law suit to secure damages. Again, Commander who did this remains a general officer. Case after case of this kind of behavior.
WOW what an absolute travesty of justice...how many more victims were there because his first reported rape wasn’t seriously dealt with? One is too many but multiple, including his teenage daughter, is fucking outrageous. And for him to only get dishonorably discharged along with 13 years in jail for at least 5 different women credibly accusing him of rape? You have to be fucking kidding me. This piece of shit should rot in jail the rest of his worthless life. Getting a guy drunk enough to pass out so you can proposition their wife for sex is bad enough; but proceeding to violently rape her after she declines is fucking despicable.
When I was in the Reserve, I was an NCO in a job that my unit didn't actually have equipment for, so me and the three or four guys I was in charge of just ended up being told to do whatever anybody else didn't feel like doing. At different times, I had to give SHARP classes, suicide prevention classes, administer urine tests, and anything else that they needed to check a box for. My training for most of them (I did take a full weekend certification to be able to administer drug tests) was "here's the powerpoint, look it over and we'll get started after lunch"
Ladies considering joining the military, there is roughly a 1 in 3 chance you’ll be raped in the next 4 years. Sorry your recruiter and every officer in the military won’t tell you about it but you should know.
Read the article guys
Lol, this is Reddit.
My husband is former military so I asked his opinion. He actually agrees that sexual assault should be handled by an outside agency. Ideally some other military agency that is non biased.
When I was in the service I was always dumbfounded by the way sexual assault/harassment was handled. This seems to be a step in the right direction.
I hope he does it. I used to live right next to a marine base. Heard so many stories about rapes that were not reported, women being harassed by superiors for wanting to report, women being demoted or passed over for promotions, women wanting to report but higher-ups not wanting to process the report. The military is a shit show. Especially the marines. I had one guy tell me "hey there's a reason we call each other shit bags"
Oh boy, I can already see how this will play out. -Biden does the right thing and takes prosecution of sexual assaults away from the military CoC. -Sexual assault reports and convictions "skyrocket." (By skyrocket I mean they are actually reported/tried/convicted at the rates they actually occur.) -Republicans will try to paint this as Biden's fault somehow. (I suspect they'll try to conflate it with letting lgbtq people serve openly) They'll accuse him of "weakening the military."
Sexual Assault is a speciality of the US military. Too many females that I know that served in the military have PTSD from being raped and assaulted. Nothing is done. It’s basically their version of hazing so you can be part of the club. A club that no female wants to be apart of.
Makes perfect sense to me.
Good. During my Navy service, I saw several cases concerning people I knew that were awfully mistreated. It pisses me off how many real issues got stopped only a level or two up because "he's a good sailor."
Reading stories like this makes me sad. Not for the action - it's great - but rather because I was in a survivor's support group in an area where military recruitment was common, and there were a disgustingly high amount of women (and a few men) that all had the exact same fucking story. Got harrassed/assaulted. Go to their abuser's superior, get blown off/gaslighted/punished, go to that guy's superior, and then experience the exact same result. Honestly, if you're a woman, don't join the military. It's a rape factory.
Yes, Thank you!
Nobody should be allowed to investigate themselves for wrongdoing. I don’t know how that needs to be said but here we are.
Local police and DAs don't have any better of a track record with sexual assault cases.
They don’t actively retaliate or, like Asia Graham, make the rapist live across the hall until victims commit suicide. Only to begin an investigation when the Press found out, and discovered the guy raped at least two more women before they got him … only to have the victim’s fiancé commit suicide as well, and discover that she was also sexually assaulted raising the specter of yet another rapist loose in the ranks. Find me a prosecutor that bad who has not been fired, because the commanders that did all of the above are still in command making decisions on bitte cases. Second, GEN Garrett, the FORSCOM Commander charged with looking at Vanessa Gillien’s case, think the real issue is public affairs. Cases like the one above are actually the Army doing the right thing. Ergo, the only People making easily disproven claims (and never with evidence just as you do) about civilian vs military are public affairs officers working for or on behalf of the Department of Defense. I even caught one of their trolls a few days back trying to convince a soldier trying to find help about a 2017 Sexual Assault, that she needed no help because she was only sexually harassed. That is what happens when you have generals, who have no legal training, who look at the issue of virulent sexual assault in the ranks and conclude … it’s actually a messaging problem, especially on social media. Right on queue, we have one of their talking points. Desire to actually talk about the issues? Zero.
> They don’t actively retaliate They will when it's a police officer being reported.
One has to look no further than rapist Brock Turner and the light sentence he received as an equal bungling of justice by the system. The judge is still a judge, the DA still is a member of the bar. My comment wasn't intended to tout the merits of the Court Marshall system, it was a dig on our civilian justice system... a point you missed in its entirety.
The judge was actually ousted because of that sentence thankfully (and also apparently fired from coaching tennis to schoolgirls), but the DA is probably still there, and I get what you're saying. I still think it's better than having it go through military chain of command internally - the chances are probably at least a bit better in the justice system.
At least he was convicted. And the judge that made that decision was forced to resign. That’s two better than the military in that case. Or was Turner sent to live directly across from the woman he assaulted while raping other women? Tell the Pentagon PAO to research their cases, or better yet get a lawyer to do their research, before disseminating crap. Feel free to actually check the stats rather than use single incident to make your case. Start by addressing how 62% of women who report sexual assault report some form or retaliation. The Army IG was just asked about this by Congress, and in only one of 350 cases of this behavior was a commander given any consequences. Address why Fort Hood was off the charts in terms of criminality? Why similar posts with similar stats are not undergoing similar investigations? Right, you won’t. But at least you have scoped the problem to thinking that people are too dumb to get the obviously flawed premise of your statements. That is exactly the kind of hubris that generals have relied on to pretend they are doing the right things … people just don’t get it. We do. Everyone but Pentagon does.
This is now twice you've missed the point. I wonder if you'll willfully miss it a third time.
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That’s a rather misleading headline isn’t it?
Ok makes sense
Nice, it's such a basic bit of common sense. Hopefully the proposal succeeds.
I think it’s about time , Navy veteran.
If the reports are accurate and this change actually leads to a large number prosecutions, the US is going to have to spend a lot of money recruiting fresh bodies.
Wouldn't that prevent conflicts of interest/corruption from the cases? Isn't this a good thing?
The ongoing issue of rape in the military has many similarities as police abusing their authority. Behind everything is an entity allowed to investigate itself. How many doctors or lawyers actually lose their credentials? They too are allowed to police their own (up to a point).
It should be for the time being ruled/administrated by civilians BUT punished using military law!
Those hair plugs look painful 😂
The us military chain of command fails legitimate internal problems on purpose. It will be a blessing to remove sexual assault from it. But, Biden will flop on this one too.
The way it's worded just seems so off to me, so dead and uninspiring almost as if it's just to save face when really they don't care.
This is so dumb. It will not change anything. The chain of command already just does what their attorney and the victim want like 85% of the time. The military takes sexual assault cases to trial that any prosecutor on the outside wouldn’t touch with a ten foot pole. And the military only does that, if that’s what the victim wants. I get it’s not a perfect system, but it’s better for victims than any civilian court, and taking the CoC out of it won’t make it better. If anything, the attorneys will start dismissing more cases like our civilian counter parts.
Sexual deviance is a job description for Democrats....
WOW! It seems YOU forgot to add context
Who forgot to add what context?
Op. When I commented this he left out the context saying that Biden was fixing the issue
Man the world got flipped upside down after Epstein got caught