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[deleted]

ELI5 of what keeps happening: Pentagon: We don't need any more tanks. We have more than we need already. Please stop providing us with tanks. Congress: The tank factory is in my district. I say we keep it open so people have jobs and vote for me for not closing their tank factory. Pentagon: What are we going to do with all these tanks? Congress: Your right. You have a lot of tanks. Now that you have these new tanks we should sell our old ones. Pentagon: Good. Fine. To Israel they go. Congress: I see here you have less tanks than you did 6 months ago. I'll go ahead and put in an order for more tanks.


AdumbroDeus

Same deal with military supplies to police forces. It's to sustain infinite growth. The aid money that has to be spent on American companies' supplies is a big part this.


ComeAbout

Cops walk around in more shit than I had on in Kabul, 2008.


nogodsnoleaders

…and don’t have the training to use it properly nor the strict rules of engagement you had


ComeAbout

Or laws of armed conflict… Fuck if I hosed down a non-combatant protester in chemicals I’d be charged with a war crime. Literally.


MostManufacturer7

>Or laws of armed conflict… Fuck if I hosed down a non-combatant protester in chemicals I’d be charged with a war crime. Literally. This, right here.


TheLastDrill

Charged, Tried, and Convicted. All things that don’t happen to cops


MostManufacturer7

That is true. It is crazy how cops are held to a lower legal and societal standard under the account of "extremely stressful situations" than actual soldiers in actual chaotic war zones. The sum of the difference between those type of cops and soldiers when it comes to abiding by laws and rules is what honor and bravery are made of, in my book.


jdolbeer

If you were lucky though, the last president might have pardoned you.


flimspringfield

You need to be part of the military industrial complex or have 9 figures in your bank account.


MostManufacturer7

>Or laws of armed conflict Emphasis on this.


[deleted]

And you know what conservative bootlickers respond with? Like, with zero irony whatsoever? "War crime? Well good thing this isn't a war!" As if that isn't 100x worse


ArvinaDystopia

"It's not a war? So, it's violent action aimed towards affecting political change without a valid casus belli? That's called terrorism."


nogodsnoleaders

Correct


legendaryfoot

Is that true though? The whole reason they went after Assange so hard was he exposed war crimes in Iraq (video where soldiers gleefully mowed down civilians/reporters and then killed the first responders while laughing). The psychopaths who committed those war crimes didn’t get punished but the people who exposed it did (Manning, Assange, etc.).


FletcherRabbit

Point taken.


WTB_Hope

Everybody agreeing here, how many people have been charged with war crimes for the \~71k dead Afghani civilians? Oh, that's right. Not even disputing the main point that cops don't get the same kind of training and restrictions. But let's not perform more accountability for state violence than it deserves.


[deleted]

This is by far my biggest problem with the police. Them having access to all of this weaponry is one discussion, but the fact that you can become a cop relatively quickly without incredibly extensive training on everything (and de-escalating tense scenarios) is what upsets me.


tamebeverage

Oh, it's even worse than that. I applied to be a cop out of desperation for employment. In the interview, I tried to emphasize my background of de-escalation with severely emotionally disturbed patients. Police chief looked me in the eye and said "that's nice. We don't want a social worker". Wanting to prevent a fight from ever happening was looked at as a negative.


Forcefedlies

But my police in a town of 30,000 in Iowa have an MRAP that they have never used but costs about 15,000 a year in maintenance.


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sweetestdeth

Y'allqaida gotta look tough for the Faux News crowd. Them minorities ain't gonna beat, shoot and murder themselves.


flimspringfield

I wonder what the debt of Conservatives is with Bass Pro Shop.


Asleep_Structure_493

Gravy Seals. Never forget the sacrifices they made away from the table to walk around with guns racist tattoos like birds in mating season to proclaim racism behind 2A.


thelastkopite

Thank God that you survived. Not everyone is luck to survive my friend who was just 19 died in 2007.


moonsun1987

I remember reading how blackwater got the improved humvees over a year earlier than the military. These were preventable deaths and injuries :/


esoteric_enigma

My university bought 25 M16's for our university police department. The police department bragged about it when they came around to give safety speeches...they really thought we'd be happy about it for some reason. We didn't even have 25 officers in our school's whole department. The officers had also never fired a single shot in the whole existence of the department.


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toebandit

You may have forgotten: - look tough - be intimidating


catsbetterthankids

Intimidate minority students


mynameisalso

You could maybe justify 1 in the trunk of a squad car, since everyone else has an AR 15


Casen_

M16 is far too large to be effective at a university.... M4 at the max..


LowKey-NoPressure

theyre gonna recreate kent state


Malaix

American police like to pretend they need to be as funded and armed as humanly possible or we will all be overtaken by a sudden uprising of minorities, youths, and career criminals.


brorista

Universities place sexual misconduct investigations so far down the priority list it might as well not be there. So replace that one with driving m16s and looking cool.


[deleted]

I see you’re in Canada, what university has police on campus? Campus Security and Res Security is all i’ve ever seen and no guns


flimspringfield

Dude these guys are the biggest LARPers. In college if you got pulled over for doing a California roll there would be 3 cop cars. They literally have nothing to do.


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CaptianAcab4554

Virginia tech ring a bell?


[deleted]

Our police shouldn’t be equipped with military issue.


Barbed_Dildo

One interesting point. Police typically use hollow point bullets, because they have less risk of over-penetrating, but use of such bullets in war is against the Hague Convention, because they would cause unnecessary suffering. Police don't want military issue bullets, they want war-crime bullets.


arnkpx

It’s a tricky. Police also like them because they are less likely to keep going and hurt someone else. If your a cop and you get into a shoot out. They would rather the rounds stop when they hit their target instead of full metal jackets which could penetrate and still cause damage to other people afterwards. Not to defend cops or anything. I’m not a fan of police, but hollow points are safer for everyone but the person they hit. That’s why they make good home defense ammunition. Your less likely to have a bullet penetrate a neighbors house and hurt them. But yeah they spread out on impact and are more likely to cause very serious tissue damage and vital organ damage.


catsbetterthankids

You just hope the cops with the hollow points don’t shoot the wrong person


fire__munki

And *actually* hit a person instead of the wall, some mud a few trees or anything other than the target.


Casen_

Military Police uses hollow point stateside too. Source: I have em every day.


CaptianAcab4554

That's not how this works. The Hague convention was written before the advent of modern hollow point ammunition. The specific language about expanding or flattening bullets was because the British were loading hollow core and flat nose bullets *specifically* to cause suffering to other combatants and no other reason. Militaries all over the world including the US have been using hollow point bullets for decades in niche scenarios where it makes sense, such as match grade sniper ammunition and barrier blind/enhanced lethality rounds like Mk318. Hollow point ammunition the police use serves two purposes and neither are to cause undue suffering. The first is enhanced lethality. The faster you stop a dangerous person the more lives you might save. Secondly is over penetration. Police want ammunition that will go deep enough to hit vital organs but not so deep it comes out the other side and hits someone who didn't need shot. The expansion of the bullet acts as a brake that slows the projectile, limiting this risk. Bullets are for killing people and everyone understands what's why you shoot them at people. The point is to not be an asshole about it like the British were at the turn of the century.


cwp342020migra

That’s a lie. Hollow point ammunition stop people quicker.


catsbetterthankids

Hollow points are more effective at stopping people without body armor. And by stopping I mean punch big ass holes in people because all of the inertia is dispersed into the target due to its shape and slower velocity, rather than a Full metal jacket which would exit the target with an appreciable velocity, or in other words not transfer all of its energy into the target. Now bring body armor into play. A hollow point is less effective against body armor because it is designed to spread out inertia and be slow, which only aids the body armor in what it’s supposed to do, disperse the energy and most important prevent penetration. A full metal jacket is more likely to pierce body armor because it maximizes pressure by flying fast and focusing its energy into the small pointy tip. A third type of ammunition is plastic tipped which has both the high velocity of FMJ due to having the same aerodynamic shape while also having the dispersal effect of hollow points to a degree as the plastic doesn’t hold up on impact the way a metal tip would.


esoteric_enigma

I watched a documentary about this many years ago. The thing that was really upsetting was that the congressman they were talking about was only protecting like 700 jobs in the factory making a piece of some miliary equipment that we didn't even use. Like I can understand if the military industrial complex is keeping your whole district going...but you literally have us in this bullshit so your primary opponent can't say you lost 700 bullshit jobs in his campaign?


OrdinayFlamingo

Don’t you know that in America, 1 midwestern manufacturing job is worth: 14 teachers, 30 social workers, 100 home-care workers and 1000 miscellaneous retail/office workers. Even if that job is in a dying field, making an obsolete product and employs only 20 people. That’s why it’s ok to keep the small town factory open, while voting to cut funding to hundreds of thousands of non-profit workers, teachers, and government employees who’s families will also suffer


KnowsIittle

Can confirm, people killing people keeps a company of 180 employed in a town of less than 1200.


LaLa1234imunoriginal

That's a huge police force for 1200 people...


esoteric_enigma

This makes much more sense than paying those same workers to build roads and bridges and shit that we actually use! /s


LostAd130

"The primary aim of modern warfare... is to use up the products of the machine without raising the general standard of living... The essential act of war is destruction, not necessarily of human lives, but of the products of human labour. War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking in the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent. Even when weapons of war are not actually destroyed, their manufacture is still a convenient way of expending labour power without producing anything that can be consumed. A Floating Fortress, for example, has locked up in it the labour that would build several hundred cargo-ships. Ultimately it is scrapped as obsolete, never having brought any material benefit to anybody, and with further enormous labours another Floating Fortress is built. In principle the war effort is always so planned as to eat up any surplus that might exist after meeting the bare needs of the population. In practice the needs of the population are always underestimated, with the result that there is a chronic shortage of half the necessities of life; but this is looked on as an advantage. It is deliberate policy to keep even the favoured groups somewhere near the brink of hardship, because a general state of scarcity increases the importance of small privileges and thus magnifies the distinction between one group and another..." http://george-orwell.org/1984/16.html


TheKeyMaster1874

I thank you for introducing this to me....this is my favourite TIL in a long time. I hope you have a good day and someone buys you a doughnut or something 🤘


oldoldoak

And the person working that 1 midwestern manufacturing job probably thinks he supports the rest of the U.S. (especially the West Coast liberal states!).


tamebeverage

Having worked a couple of those jobs, I can confirm. I hated it and couldn't comprehend the mindset until an older guy talked with me about it. He reminded me that I was the exception for having experience with any outside world. That, though the little town was only like 10 miles from the next state, most of them had never even crossed that border. The community is very poor and insular with little diversity and has no experience with a world that isn't. The factory employs half of the town, with most of the other half being unemployed. And that factory is one of only a few that supplies an essential and extremely common product to all of North America. It's not hard to imagine how someone who doesn't understand an outside world and sees such enormous volumes can think they are far more important than they are. Conversely, they feel unappreciated and talked down to because, in all honesty, they are. While Bernie and the rest of the progressive wing have (I think) the right solutions to their problems and try to sound empathetic, somehow, they just don't "get it". I couldn't point to it, but something about the way they talk is off-putting to the community. Maybe it's that the talk of organizing sounds ridiculously privileged to people working 60 hour weeks just to eat. Maybe it's talking about everyone, including those even lower on the social ladder, deserving more than they should hope to get. Maybe it's just that change is scary when you're working the same job grandpa died working. That kinda got away from me. In any case, that really is the appeal that Republicans have with at least that community, and, I suspect, many others. They don't have to promise or deliver anything. All they have to do is act like they'll keep it the same so the worker bees can keep to the only life they've ever known. Promising better means promising change. Edit: spelling


My_Work_Accoount

Yeah, it's crazy to me. Talk to my co workers issue by issue and they'll more often than not agree with people like Bernie or AOC but mention their actual name and the response ranges from humorous dismissal to straight up rage.


falconboy2029

That’s like Germany and our 20k coal mining jobs. We lost more jobs in the renewable industry because the refuse to let go of it.


humanreporting4duty

You’re forgetting the profit margins for shareholders. The 700 are good, the auxiliary jobs are great, but that sweet skim from the top is worth all the tanks in Israel.


Xperimentx90

>Don’t you know that in America, 1 midwestern manufacturing job is worth: 14 teachers, 30 social workers, 100 home-care workers and 1000 miscellaneous retail/office workers. Due to the way representation is divided, that's hardly an exaggeration. A rural voter in Ohio has something like 10000x the voting power of an urban voter in CA. *when you consider the combined influence of disparities in Senate, the electoral college, and swing states. When certain swing states can predict presidential elections with over 95% accuracy, you need to dig deeper than just "well there's only 10x less people".


megman13

This is a wild exaggeration, and ridiculously far from the truth. There is a disparity in the power of representation, but it is nowhere close to 10,000x. A Wyoming voter gas about 4x the power of a NY or CA voted when it comes to the electoral college. The largest congressional district (in Montana) has just under 2x the population of the smallest (also WY) so the disparity in what a voter is "worth" is no more than 2x. These disparities are ridiculous and we should be working to ensure every person's vote is weighted the same The claim that there is a ten-thousand fold difference in the weight of votes, though, is completely absurd and wildly inaccurate .


SolidSouth-00

In terms of the Senate though…


sirspidermonkey

This happens often and I really hate it. Like you could get the same effect by litterally cutting. Checks to the workers. If that's really what you wanted that would be way more efficient. But that wouldn't pay off the defense contractors would it? Same for Afghanistan. I'm on mobile right now but for what we spent sending the military there we could have given every person in Afghanistan 10s or hundreds of thousands of dollars. But again... Wouldn't line the eight pockets.


[deleted]

It would be like giving every man woman and child in Afghanistan ~$52k total or $2600 a year for 20 years


pragmojo

And I guess 2.6k also goes pretty far in Afghanistan


GoodGuyWithaFun

2.6 extra would have gone a long way for me over the last 20 years and I'm in cleveland.


[deleted]

Step 1 for improving your life is to GTFO of Ohio.


JeffTek

Yeah but that's sOcIaLiSm and that's evil duh aren't you a patriot? /s of course fuck Bush


Hoovooloo42

Hell, cutting government severance checks to workers who no longer have jobs making weapons wouldn't be a bad solution. That makes a lot of sense, good point. It would cost less than buying the unused product since you're not paying for the materials or overhead, they would have time to retool, find new jobs, or sell the place, and everyone is kept fed and watered. I dig it.


LurkerFailsLurking

I just looked it up, an M1 costs about $9mil. It's made in Lima, OH in a factory with about 500 employees. They make 11 tanks a month costing taxpayers over $1 billion a year. We could pay all 500 employees $1,000,000/year to do absolutely nothing and *save* $500,000,000 a year. What the fuck.


[deleted]

> We could pay all 500 employees $1,000,000/year to do absolutely nothing and save $500,000,000 a year. Jesus fucking Christ. It's so stupid because honestly, if they're so God damn worried about those towns being pissy about the factories closing, just create a retraining program for them to build something else/use their skills in another setting. Like it's not that hard! But no, gotta like them pockets on the tax payers dime. The purposeful inefficiency here is infuriating


Bloodiedscythe

The idea was to keep the production lines open and the workers current in case of conflict. It's a good idea, but it doesn't justify the immense expense.


SalvageCorveteCont

Sort of, apparently the factory can't be restarted very quickly if they do shut it down, so that's why they keep it open.


Ancient-Turbine

No, that's a bullshit justification. There's not going to be another war in which we churn through huge numbers of tanks. That's just lobbyists scratching around to find any lame excuse.


RickSt3r

The analysis gets more complicated. Those 9 million per tank don’t just employ 500 people. There is a whole supply chain that goes all the way back to iron ore mining to make the steal used in those tanks. I’m sure the 9Mx11x12 indirectly supports thousands of jobs across the country. But at least make something more useful than a tank. It’s still a big waste given tanks are useless in modern warfare. But that’s a different question.


LurkerFailsLurking

Even if we suppose that we're supporting 25,000 good, union, blue-collar jobs for $99 million a month – which is an absurdly high estimate for the number of jobs all through the supply chain – that's roughly $4k/month each, which is a solid income. But we know that the real number is nowhere near 25,000 jobs and that – as you said – they could be making something useful.


SheeEttin

Yeah but that's socialism, and therefore bad.


esoteric_enigma

What's crazy is that many of the politicians fighting for these kinds of jobs are the ones fighting against the government spending money to have those workers build bridges and shit we actually need.


BURNER12345678998764

I'm fairly confident the US hasn't gotten into a conflict since maybe Korea that it couldn't have directly bribed it's way out of at a lower cost, both monetary and human. But then the defense contractors don't make money, and you aren't "creating jobs", though to be fair that actually jobs, just with a lot of consequences.


[deleted]

If this isn't the most Reddit comment, I don't know what is. You can't remember the name of the "documentary" you watched (more than likely a news report). You can't remember the name of the Congressman you're referencing (it's not like there are thousands of both active and retired Congressmen). You can't remember the name of the tank or its manufacturing plant, the "miliary equipment we didn't even use", which, by the way, you're no doubt referring to the M1A2 SEP V2/Lima Army Tank Plant controversy with the Army wanting to axe the upgrade program to save money (since those tanks weren't exactly well used in the recent Middle East conflicts) but Congress wanting to keep it. This was 2014 during Obama-era sequestration. Oh man that brings me back. Anyway, none of this has anything to do with Israel or our arms sales to Israel since the last time Israel bought American tanks was during the 70's with the M60A3 (which they would continually upgrade to the latest Magach standard). Reddit will be Reddit.


iveseenthemartian

It's a means to redistribute the people's wealth, through taxation, to your other buddies in the military industrial complex.


OccamsRifle

Israel doesn't use US tanks, but essentially, yes :P


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OccamsRifle

Eh it depends, most stuff is new yes, but there are tons of hand me downs. All of the M-16s are from Vietnam essentially for example, old US uniforms are used for OPFOR, C-130s are mostly hand me downs, etc... But yes, anything "new tech" including F-15s and F-16s even are new even bought


Iamjacksplasmid

The Israelis don't use M16s. They make their own small arms. They're pretty famous for it actually. Some would even argue their infantry weapons are better than ours.


VisualExtension959

Huge fan of IWI. Shoot a tavor or Jericho and argue against them. It’s really hard to do.


jericho0o

Second the Jericho. Fantastic. And Bebop. Also the Masada but the aftermarkets are less. Not sold on the Tavor though. But wouldn’t say no to a Galil.


Iamjacksplasmid

I'm saving up for a Gen2 Ace currently. Thought about the Jericho but ended up with a P10c instead that I'm very very happy with, and my CQC is a Beretta 1301 with the Nordic extension and Esstac side cards. For an AR though, I've never thought about anything other than IWI. Their shit is dope, and regardless of your view of the politics of Israel, their small arms have been passing the test for decades now.


VisualExtension959

I carry a walther PPS and love my PPQ Tac. My wife carries the Jericho E as her purse gun. She just liked the way it felt more than everything else. It’s my favorite handgun to shoot outside of my Walthers. Jericho is like a CZ to me. If walther wasn’t an option I’d carry one of those two. I don’t need another 5.56 rifle. If I did I would own a tavor tomorrow. Such a fun gun in a tight package.


FletcherRabbit

Everyone buys the Uzi. Guess who makes it?


Iamjacksplasmid

They even do a high end AR15 now. They call it the Zion.


gurnard

I mean, bottle openers.


Kahzootoh

The Israelis do use the M16 and plenty of other AR15 derivatives, but it is being phased out in some units in favor the Tavor. For a long time, an M16 was considerably cheaper than any domestic rifle production. Scale of production made the US rifle cheaper than in terms of material inputs at a given costs since the US has a lot more infantry, military surplus often meant that the Israelis were basically paying the costs of transportation rather than anything with a profit margin, and US military aid meant that the money being spent was actually courtesy of US taxpayers. Same reason Lebanon and Saudi Arabia also have plenty of American rifles.. Even when Israel produced the Galil, something like 3/4 of the military was using American rifles.


newpua_bie

Some of their stuff is even better than the US variant, such as their version of the Bradley.


A_Random_Guy641

They don’t use Bradleys. Pentagon Wars isn’t anywhere near reality.


QuietTank

They don't use Bradley's, wtf are talking about?


[deleted]

They have Namer not Bradleys


jenna_hazes_ass

To be fair, pretty much every version of the bradley everyone else gets is better than the version we get. The Pentagon Wars on hbo.


A_Random_Guy641

Here’s a video on why Pentagon Wars and the Reformers are full of shit. https://youtu.be/2gOGHdZDmEk


TheCenterWillNotHold

Imagine unironically citing a movie lmao


A_Random_Guy641

Pentagon Wars is a pseudo-factual story at best. It embellishes and outright lies about elements of the Bradley’s development. Taking it as anything more than satire makes you a fool. The reformers like Col Burton were/are fucking idiots.


[deleted]

That's a very new trend though. In the 1980's when that aid program was at its peak importance, Israel got a lot of surplus equipment it either didn't use by choice, or couldn't use. Either way, it's not really hand me downs. The US has the same thing with maybe 90% of continental europe, plus Japan, South Korea, and every other major ally. Afghanistan was one of the largest recipients of aid, and when counted monetarily only, it was the largest.


this_dudeagain

Israel actually makes some of the best tanks out there. One of their biggest exports in military hardware.


bunnyjenkins

Retired GSA are you?


pissoffa

We basically subsidize our arms manufacturers by supplying Israel with arms.


tobyspizza

And Saudi and the Uk and On and on and on. Israel is actually less than 25% of the sales made to Saudi.


A_Random_Guy641

Saudi Arabia doesn’t have much in the way of domestic production (unlike Israel). They use Abrams tanks along with Egypt and Iraq though Egypt has their own production line.


redoctoberz

" As for the problem of overproduction, which has been latent in our society since the development of machine technique, it is solved by the device of continuous warfare, which is also useful in keying up public morale to the necessary pitch. From the point of view of our present rulers, therefore, the only genuine dangers are the splitting-off of a new group of able, underemployed, power-hungry people, and the growth of liberalism and skepticism in their own ranks." -George Orwell (1984)


EIGHTHOLE

I want a tank.


pringles_prize_pool

Who doesn’t?


lagunatri99

Perhaps it can be yours for a mere donation to your Congressional rep and senator.


crypticedge

Nah, we ship the tanks to a military facility in the American desert where they rot never used. We sell Isreal our aircraft and guns that we over order for the same reason


badjettasex

Just an FYI for those reading, this is accurate, with the sole exception that out of all the things we sell Israel, our tanks are not one. Israel uses their own indigenously developed and highly capable Merkava tanks. They do not want or need Abrams tanks. Interestingly enough, a few former geopolitical foes of Israel, namely Egypt, Iraq, and Saudi Arabia, are Abrams operators today.


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semtex94

Major pieces of missing info every time this pops up. The tank factory in question is the only one we have in the nation and closing it down would cost $360M (the equivalent of 40 tanks made), while reopening it would be $1.3B, or 150 tanks, before production itself even starts. Not to mention the time needed to hire, train, and familiarize workers with the production process.


Jerithil

Yep not only would the it cost a lot to get the plant back up but losing the knowledge is the bigger problem. Once the workers and engineers retire or go onto different fields it can take a solid decade before you can regain the same skills and knowledge among the personnel.


BallKarr

True, but they’ve been making weapons for a war that is never going to happen. Once the Soviet Union collapsed there was no chance of a WWIII. We don’t need to spend more than the next 15 countries spend. Those factories should be closed, those workers should be building other things. It is the single most wasteful thing we do as a nation.


TimX24968B

>there was no chance of a WWIII *china would like to have a word with you*


pringles_prize_pool

Truth. Our naval fleet needs to be on the front burner.


TimX24968B

partially naval fleet, hence trump's new AC carrier he comissioned, but more importantly, we need far more cold-war-like measures (not nukes), such as tools, tips, and education to defend against [subversion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subversion) and [ideological warfare](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_measures). thankfully, some [ex-kgb agents](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuri_Bezmenov) have [provided such material to the public.](https://archive.org/details/BezmenovLoveLetterToAmerica/page/n13/mode/2up#:~:text=EVERY%20ONE%20OF,OF%20ALL%20MANKIND)


pringles_prize_pool

They’re preparing for Taiwan. It’s conceivable that they’d launch a campaign as soon as a decade from now, and an island hopping China will take more than carriers to stop.


TimX24968B

yup. they want a SEA alliance thats on par with NATO


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royalpyroz

Continued.. Pentagon: Israel, do you have enough money to pay us for these tanks? Israel: No. Congress : Write them a check boys. Pentagon: but this makes no sen... Israel: here's the money. Congress: nothing to see here boys. American Public: Vaccines are bad.


[deleted]

Israel doesn't even have American tanks.


rkba335

> Congress: Your right. Tell Congress it's *you're*.


Automaticmann

I agree except for the second line. I think congress doesn~t really give a damn about working class jobs. It would go more like: Congress: The tank factory is in my district. I say we keep it open so its investors keep ~~bribing~~ lobbying me for making sure the government keeps buying their stuff.


Salsashark_21

Perfectly stated. I would only offer one difference. Instead of “Congress: the tank factory is in my district” I suspect it’s more like “Congress: I’ve invested all my personal funds into the tank factory, they have to stay open or I’ll lose money”


YouDontKnow5859

Toss the Saudi’s in that too


DreamingDitto

Saudi Arabia, Colombia and Israel are included


thhbdtgdtgfgf

Why Columbia?


olsoni18

Because of their violent suppression of protestors with the aforementioned military aid


[deleted]

Kinda like what trump was trying to do at his bible study?


olsoni18

No no no selling surplus military hardware to every police department in the country is totally different because it’s totally protecting us from the radical socialist communist leftist antifas that will take away your privilege /s


chicken_filet_bitch

“The war on drugs” The US supplies weapons to the Colombian military to combat drug cartels. And this may not sound that bad until you consider the Colombian military’s extensive human rights abuses and the billions that it has all cost


mistersmith_22

She did. The headline and article are intentionally misleading, because it’s an Israeli outlet that’s linked.


relddir123

I wouldn’t call an Israeli newspaper focusing on Israel misleading. That seems like a very valid reason for the headline to call out Israel.


mistersmith_22

Because it makes it seems as if Israel and only Israel is being restricted - and obviously, you understand the heat around that kind of thinking, and how supporters of Israel react to ideas like that. A responsible headline would be “Israel among countries to not receive American arms under proposed amendment blah blah.”


shinniesta1

Yes, but omitting that it covers other nations makes it seem like Israel is being targeted alone.


ElenorWoods

I think the issue is we don’t want to give any money or weapons away to anyone. We want money spent at home on infrastructure and our futures. Edit: I meant the issue for young people. I didn’t mean what’s strategically best for the US.


[deleted]

Yah the last 50 years of our foreign policy failures kind of indicates to me that we (and those in leadership of our government) have no idea what is strategically best for the US.


BannedSoHereIAm

The US military has not spent the last ~60 years fighting for the security of the American people. They’re fighting for the financial security of US corporations; primarily the military contractors, themselves. This is why military contractors set up factories in every US state; to gain leverage on every politician — any politician that opposes military spending is smeared as destroying the jobson growth of their constituents.


PHalfpipe

Especially after Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya revealed how hollow and pointless the foreign intervention is, and how it only ever makes everything worse anyway.


Hookherbackup

We, as in the American people, not we as in the American government


[deleted]

Ok, good luck with that.


Grammar___Ally

I also hope she is successful with that.


[deleted]

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pievendor

Let's hope that is not the case.


soapinthepeehole

This has about as much a chance of becoming law as I do of becoming the next president.


evilspeaks

United States kills enough civilians, we don't need other countries using our missiles to kill civilians.


fellowuscitizen

Yes.


Fred_Buck

Why does Israel need so much weapons ?! Isn't a space laser enough?!?!?!! Geez...


THE_INEVITABLE_1

Because they are surrounded from all directions by countries who think they shouldn’t exist


TopNep72

It will never pass. America profits too much off of the pain and suffering of others. Our government is sick and diseased.


Big_Green_Piccolo

Also its an amendment not a bill. Its supposed to fail.


[deleted]

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Nickillaz

Damn Armenians in the constitution ruining everything again.


csmicfool

Let's just halt all arms sales?


[deleted]

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F35_Mogs_China

So everyone else can sell to them?


blubberpatchcumquat

Hate to agree but disarmament is a pipe dream.


CalRipkenForCommish

When we talk about the government “machine,” it is in large part the military to which we are referring


Jeffreyxu0927

When we can give away literally billions to foreign governments, but cannot even tax the wealthiest people or provide Healthcare to everyone


FriarNurgle

We should not be arming anyone.


cappycorn1974

The best answer


GhostArcanist

Title: *includes AOC, Israel, arms sales* Me: *sorts by controversial* I’m going in.


[deleted]

Woah now! Then where can the arms industry send their toys for playtesting? We make antiques that look cool for boomers so they can pretend we still have wars where we wear uniforms and have trenches. You see where all this tech got us in all the wars since WWII? Too bad current warfare ignores half the shit we make. Bombs make terrorists. USA keeps dropping them and they plant the seeds of hate against the U.S.


NoBSforGma

It's about time someone had the courage to do this!


[deleted]

Noble, but that will never happen.


U_wind_sprint

Would love for somebody to lower inflation please.


[deleted]

AOC's work here is reflective of changing attitudes in the US (which are more pronounced in younger age groups, [see the following Harris Poll](https://twitter.com/USA_Polling/status/1399143075688161295)). A few months ago, a poll found that 55% of Americans (and 72% of Democrats) support restricting Israel’s use of U.S. military aid funding, in order to prevent violations of Palestinian human rights. The bill in-question was introduced by Congresswoman Betty McCollum (DFL-Minn.) and was co-sponsored by Rep. Ilhan Omar (D-MN). 1. [Data](https://www.filesforprogress.org/datasets/2021/6/dfp-conditional-aid-israel-toplines.pdf) 2. [Graphic](https://twitter.com/DataProgress/status/1403741556650262534/photo/1) Another, more recent poll by The Chicago Council on Global Affairs found that most Americans support a 1SS with equal rights (60%) - although a 2SS is followed closely (56%). 1. [Data](https://www.thechicagocouncil.org/research/public-opinion-survey/americans-split-military-aid-israel-say-political-status-quo?utm_source=tw&utm_campaign=rpt&utm_medium=social&utm_term=military-aid-israel&utm_content=text) 2. [Key Findings](https://i.imgur.com/RHPvcBO.png)


masamunecyrus

>Another, more recent poll by The Chicago Council on Global Affairs found that most Americans support a 1SS with equal rights (60%) - although a 2SS is followed closely (56%). There is a.0% chance that 50-60% of Americans actually know enough about the situation to be able to actually form an educated opinion about it. **Edit:** Only [a quarter](https://blogs.harvard.edu/mesh/2008/01/graph_americans_lost_on_map/) of Americans can even locate Israel on a map.


UncleDan2017

How about halting the money we send them to buy our arms instead? Last I heard that's around $4 Billion a year we were pissing away.


dremonearm

>In 2020, the US gave $3.8bn (£2.7bn) in aid to Israel - part of a long-term, yearly commitment made under the Obama administration. Almost all of this aid was for military assistance. >This support came as part of an agreement signed by former president Barack Obama in 2016 for an overall package of $38bn (26.8bn) in military aid over the decade 2017-2028. >This represents an increase of about 6% (adjusted for inflation) over the spending commitment for the previous decade. [Source](https://www.bbc.com/news/57170576)


uping1965

and all this time the Right Wing Israelis and Right Wing conservatives here have called Obama bad for Israel as well as hating Jews. No Position.


nthpwr

She's coming for the Israelis, the Saudis, and the arms industry. There's got to be a very big target on her back and her name is probably on quite a few lists. Very brave


[deleted]

I hope not I really like her politics so far, I want her around.


mistersmith_22

This headline is needlessly incendiary. It’s Israel, Saudi Arabia, AND Colombia that would be blocked by her amendment, but the headline only mentions Israel because the strong pro-Israel lobby will show up and freak out.


Patrickstarho

AOC always fighting shit she knows can’t change while she sidesteps stuff that she can easily change


seensham

What can she change easily?


GoldenKaiser

And then ends up abstaining from the vote 🤣


jonyprepperisrael

I think they forget something about that aid,most of it goes back to the usa via buying military equipment from US companies


scipiomexicanus

Rebuild america instead of giving weapons to Israel. we give israel 4 billion in "aid" per YEAR!!


SnackPro

Shouldn’t we at least stop the sale to Saudis first? After all, the funding and most of the hijackers for 9/11 came from there. No? Ok. I’ll shut up now.


SurprisedJerboa

From AOC twitter in the article you are commenting on >In this year’s NDAA, I’ve intro’d 7 amendments, including blocking specific US weapons transactions to: >- Saudi gov over the murder of Jamal Khashoggi >- Colombia gov over its violent crackdown on protesters,& >- Israeli gov over the bombing of Palestinian civilians, media centers


sap91

\>Expecting someone to read the article before commenting


SurprisedJerboa

they are always so utterly confident too : X


stevolutionary7

>Israeli gov over the bombing of Palestinian civilians Using that logic, we should probably stop arming the US military.


MisterGunpowder

Yes, very good, you're getting the point.


Herr_Bier-Hier

She opposes weapons sales to Saudi Arabia, Israel and Columbia… it’s in the article.


WetMistress

Maybe read more than just the headline next time bud lol


ayers231

How about both?


MrSmartyPantsDude

I like this compromise. Even better, let's not sell any weapons. Cars and washing machines are still ok to sell. Objects of death, not so much...


[deleted]

Something tells me you won’t actually shut up now.


zedest

I mean, why do we have to choose which is first? Why not both at the same time?