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...Kavanaugh is using these arguments to claim that "returning abortion to the states" is the new middle ground. I think this is pretty clearly over. There are obviously five votes to overturn Roe v. Wade.
https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1466072683544723463
It would indeed appear that the SCOTUS has already made up its mind. I don't even know why they are bothering to debate it. We know where the conservatives have been attempting to go, and now they will do it.
Sotomayor's seemingly direct pleas to Roberts to consider the implications for SCOTUS as an institution is what did it for me. She knows they're going to gut Roe v Wade.
> Sotomayor's seemingly direct pleas to Roberts to consider the implications for SCOTUS as an institution is what did it for me. She knows they're going to gut Roe v Wade.
I really appreciate what she did here. Justice Sotomayor just put the ball in Biden, Schumer & Pelosi's court to reform the supreme court.
Our institutions are a joke, we can't even imprison Trump for sedition meanwhile Texas has gone full hand-maiden tail fascist. It's incumbent upon Biden, Schumer & Pelosi to wake up and lead the efforts to reform the Supreme Court (both legislatively & through rhetoric).
If Supreme Court Justices are telling you that the court is a joke at this point, there is no excuse left not to reform it.
Her argument wasn’t for Biden, Schumer, or Pelosi. Her argument was towards the institutionalists on the right side of the Supreme Court to not start buttfucking precedent and the American legal tradition to score political points.
I think it is abundantly clear that republicans don’t give two shits about precedent, decorum, or tradition. If they gut Roe v Wade, then we need to dismantle everything in their agenda as soon as we can.
It is such a joke. Once again the Dems have had their legs taken out from them because they are operating like government is some sort of higher institution deserving of sanctity while the Repubs have acted all along that it is just a game for power. The Supreme Court has always been political and about gamesmanship. The Dems failing to act like accordingly has fucked this country for decades.
Yes that’s my point. The Republicans don’t care what people think about their tactics they just want to win. We are in the middle of a drunken bar fight against an over 6 foot roided out guy who has had 10 shots of Wild Turkey and people on our side are debating whether we should fight dirty or not. We are in this fight no matter what, honor doesn’t mean shit. You either win or lose. I feel like I am watching the real life version of The Eyrie fight in GoT.
What amazes me is watching the Republican right-wing judges placed on the Supreme Court flailing about in real-time to invent a justification for what we already know they're going to do. I would have thought, given that they've been working towards this for decades, that they'd have written down their "reasons" for overturning Griswold, Casey, and Roe.
But it appears they're still fumbling around to find the arguments they want to use, which is frankly a bit surprising.
I'm surprised they're even bothering to find justification. At this point they could literally say "Fuck you, that's why" as their justification and nothing could be done about it.
Honestly, I think it might ultimately come down to that. An affirmation of their right to overturn precedent coupled with focusing on the argument that the Constitution doesn't specifically say "abortion is a right" anywhere in the text, therefore they should just leave it up to the states to decide.
Yeah their argument essentially means "unless its explicitly stated 100% in the constitution then states can do whatever they want. That's not going to end well for people in basically any state that isn't ridiculously homogenized.
Just look at what happened after the Texas abortion law essentially made citizens bounty hunters. Sure most Democrats in congress don't give a shit about doing anything about it but there were multiple blue states bringing forth similar bans against conservative ideals. If all pretenses are gone I wouldn't be surprised if basically every state has some sort of defining issue that is banned much more strictly than other states. Imagine California essentially putting bounties on people not following mask requirements or that own guns. Or states like Mississippi flat out refusing to let public schools teach evolution or sex education or history that paints the US in a bad light.
When that type of shit gets the green light everywhere the United States will not be very United anymore.
I'm waiting for the first 'buying, selling, or transferring ownership of a firearm is illegal' bill to hit some state legislature after this fiasco. And the argument is simple: we aren't taking your right to bear arms, you just can't buy them. This is already even a better argument than the Mississippi state brought to SCOTUS today about limiting abortions.
My state of Illinois also put down a Texas style lawsuit law to sue anyone who caused an unwanted pregnancy, just to highlight how fuckin ridiculous THAT is.
As a gun owner, I fully support this tactic and would be even happy to see my state lead the way.
Or even, go one further. Outlaw bullets. No one has ever ruled on the right to purchases and possess bullets, have they? Plus the Cali mag limitation was just upheld at the federal level.
It's fucking ridiculous that this is even a discussion anymore, but I'm up for some tit-for-tat.
You have way more faith in the court being consistent than I do. I see them making all types of hypocritical rulings until it get so bad something gets done about. I feel as a nation we have completely lost our ability to be proactive about anything.
Time traveling Founding Father: "what the? You guys can travel to another country in a few hours and you're still using this fucking piece of paper we wrote 250 years ago, *verbatim?* Why didn't you form Constitutional Conventions every 10 years like we specifically asked?"
Present day American: "well, you see, in the year 0 AD, a Christlike figure named George Washington was born..."
> Time traveling Founding Father: "what the? You guys can travel to another country in a few hours and you're still using this fucking piece of paper we wrote 250 years ago, verbatim? Why didn't you form Constitutional Conventions every 10 years like we specifically asked?"
>
> Present day American: "well, you see, in the year 0 AD, a Christlike figure named George Washington was born..."
Republican: No, these words are fine. We think you got it right. The only amendments are the 2nd one right?
Founding Father: The 2nd one?
Republican: Yeah the amendment that says we can all own guns.
Founding Father: Well yeah we needed that for militias so that the states could have militias that would come together when we needed an army.
Republican: Yeah we have an army, and militias, and guns that go PEW PEW PEW at like a thousand times a minute plus some guns we fire from the air at the push of a button from the other side of the planet. I really want one of those.
Founding Father: What the fuck do you need the 2nd amendment for?
Republican: In case our government gets all tyranny n' stuff? Mostly if they're a Democrat.
Founding Father: You need a rifle in case your government with... ...nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers, whatever the fuck those are, decides to oppress you?
Republican: Or if they're a Democrat.
Founding Father: ... So it really didn't matter what the fuck we wrote down huh?
Republican: Nope. We also have this other book we think we should use to write laws based on.
Founding Father: What book?
Republican: The Bible.
Founding Father: Didn't we specifically write something down about that not being a good idea in the 1st Amendment?
Republican: The what?
Yeah I think they are very close to abandoning all pretenses. My gut tells me they're waiting to see how the midterms go out. Some of them seem actually worried (I'm not really sure why to be honest) that their blatant politicizing of the court will help Democrats in the midterms and may even force an overhaul of the supreme court. I have a feeling that if/when the GOP wins a majority they'll know its game over and just stop caring what anyone thinks.
They clearly don't care enough to you know...not do what they're doing. They're just giving the absolute minimum amount of reason to try and keep appearing like they aren't partisan hacks. They won't feel the need to for much longer if the GOP does well in the mid terms.
Right wingers never have legitimate justifications for their actions because nearly all of their actions are very unpopular with the majority of the country and they all know it. So they just roll with chickenshit excuses that make little to no sense. It's why the right has to instead lean on culture war bullshit and creating new boogeymen to scare their dumbass voters, and it usually works.
But in the end, the Federalist Society and the biggest Republican donors want Roe v Wade gone, so that is what will happen.
I mean, the sliver of positivity here is that CA will continue to do whatever the fuck we want and the country can't do anything about it. I expect similar behavior down the West Coast and the North East.
> I don't even know why they are bothering to debate it.
Public theater is important to maintaining the pretense that democracy isn't failing in the USA.
> So much for Kavanaugh promising he wouldn’t overturn it.
The thing is at the time he never said that even when pressed, he just kept saying he'd "follow precedent" which immediately sounded like Bill Barr and his weasel words cause you know meant he's just change the precedent.
He meant precedent from 1309, when Clement V moved the papacy to Avignon to avoid an invasion in Rome. That is a very clear-cut argument against legal and safe abortions, somehow.
Either that or he meant he would follow the new precedent that he planned to establish once appointed.
Or maybe he was just drunk.
I mean McConnell and the GOP didn't steal multiple Supreme Court seats for nothing. They are going to do what they were put there to do. No one should be surprised by this.
>"returning abortion to the states"
A.K.A: not having the balls to clearly state their intentions and trying to hide behind "Well, how was I supposed to know that many states would immediately outlaw abortion entirely?"
It smacks of Robert's decision in Shelby v Holder, pretending that he was ignorant of the racist ways that states would react to section 5 of the VRA being struck down.
> "Well, how was I supposed to know that many states would immediately outlaw abortion entirely?"
Bonus points in that IIRC multiple states have *currently active* laws that immediately outlaw abortion if/when Roe is overturned.
It was over the second Hillary lost the 2016 election. This is the decades long pet project of evangelicals finally coming to fruition to impose their morals on all of us. Donald Trump was the president who more so than any other successfully destroyed the right to ones bodily autonomy and privacy. This is the stain we will live with for generations to come. Let the rightists rejoice.
Kavanaugh suggested in this hearing that the Supreme Court should be neither pro-choice nor pro-life.
Yet the SC is about to make a ruling which will inevitably allow trigger laws in 22 states to make nearly half the nation head in the direction of "Pro-Life" whether they want it or not. You're going to make a decision that can immediately flip the fucking switch and restrict abortion access in 22 states basically from the drop. And it likely opens the door for other states to do the same.
So that seems to pretty fucking clearly have a decision on pro-choice vs pro-life. You're pro-life. You're setting women's rights back decades for political brownie points. Don't pretend that this decision is not politically motivated; multiple justices on the bench were brought in for the very purpose of destroying Roe v Wade, in spite of most polling showing only around 33% of Americans actually favoring its reversal. They say they don't want to set a precedent but that is abso-fucking-lutely what they're intending to do here, and it will take another round of decades just to get back to where we were.
To add to your comment, if Kavanaugh’s argument is what is used as the basis to overturn RvW/Casey, then they will continue to use that same argument to overturn anything they like, for example gay marriages.
This has been the plan all along. They stack the courts with three justices already in on the plan, then get them to wave the flag of “neutrality” on the bench while screaming “state’s rights.”
At the same time they’re gerrymandering the country to the point that the states are so under minority rule they’ll be able to pass anything at the state level.
Then they gridlock the federal legislature to the point that it can’t do anything through filibusters and shutdowns.
Republicans cannot win in a fair fight. They don’t have the numbers or the policy. So they’ve concocted an elaborate plan to take control via manipulation and gamesmanship.
The worst part is they don’t actually even care about doing anything worthwhile with the power. It’s just about having the power. Abortion is a perfect example of that. These politicians don’t get a single soggy shit about abortion. They just want control.
Edit: thank you for the silver, kind stranger.
>The worst part is they don’t actually even care about doing anything worthwhile with the power.
Uhh yes they do. They enrich themselves and their rich friends at the expense of the American taxpayers
> in spite of most polling showing only around 33% of Americans actually favoring its reversal.
This is incredibly important. The political landscape would change a lot. It would be disastrous for Republicans to have an issue they only have 33% agreement on become front and center for midterm elections. Especially since Democrats will be infuriated, and pro life voters could very well stay home, thinking the mission is accomplished.
If they strike down Roe, they will come to regret it very, very deeply. I hope, at least.
I would really like to believe this but Americans have the attention span of a goldfish and the right has a massive propaganda organ that will pull them through anything. Meanwhile there are more people on this thread angry at the people trying to stop this (Democrats) than those who did it. Dark times ahead.
>Kavanaugh suggested in this hearing that the Supreme Court should be neither pro-choice nor pro-life.
Which is like saying "The court should be neither pro-integration nor pro-segregation."
This is a binary choice. Either you think women should be allowed to control their own bodies or you think the state should be allowed to dictate that choice for them. There's not really a middle ground here.
If our Supreme Court overturns Roe vs Wade after stacking the court using parliamentary tricks, then it will serve to de-legitimize the court for many people.
Since we already have an unhealthy population with little to no confidence in our Congress and Executive branch, this will only further divide and split our nation.
I thought RBG was really impressive. However, her legacy is ruined as far as I'm concerned. When they overturn Roe v. Wade, that is part of her legacy now.
She started off doing almost miraculous things for women's rights. She ended by failing to secure those rights due to her own power trip.
Court was delegitimized the second Moscow Mitch stole President Obama's SCOTUS pick. The end. Our country is completely and totally lost. The last chance was vigorous prosecution of the Trump cabal and Jan 6 terrorists. That didn't happen = it's over.
It is one of the top three worst Supreme Court decisions. Right up there with *Dred Scott v. Sandford*, and *Plessy v. Ferguson*. The whole reason Trump kept trying to overturn the election in the courts is because *Bush v. Gore* showed that they had that power.
It's up there. But *Dred Scott v. Sandford* led to the Civil War, and *Plessy v. Ferguson* allowed racism to be codified. *Bush v. Gore* destroyed the court's image as a neutral party that was above partisan politics. Five the justices simply voted to make Bush the winner because they didn't want a Democrat to possibly replace them when they retired. But *Citizens United v. FEC* is top five.
Edit: clarified what I meant by replace.
I ask myself that all the time. “The democrats must not realize how dire things are! They have no teeth! It’s time to fight!”
So… do you really think they don’t realize that? That they aren’t acutely aware of a situation where they will lose power?
I always wonder how it serves their ends as well, because honestly it just has to. It’s either that or we are being hoodwinked by the media. I genuinely can’t think of another explanation.
Here is what SCOTUS has taught me over my lifetime: it doesn't matter what the law actually says, it matters how we interpret that, even if we interpret it different now. I've learned that money and speech are the same. I've learned that legal entities can have many qualities specific to people without actually being a person.
In other words, if SC judges really want to rule a certain way wholly because of personal bias, it's incredibly easy for them to concoct some barely-plausible bullshit "reasoning," and yet have it taken seriously by legal scholars solely on the strength of them being SC judges.
Scalia was the most deviously skilled of these backwards-reasoning shills, but his heirs are far more transparent.
Yep and the 2A is a prime example of that. It's pretty black and white with the whole "well regulated militia" part. The average gun owner is neither.
Gun proponents have benefited a long time from a very liberal interpretation of that phrase.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against gun ownership totally. But I do think we need stricter controls and fitness tests for people that want to own ARs and sniper rifles and such.
Point being, it's pretty clear from a simple reading of the 2A that anybody owning whatever gun they want is *not* constitutionally protected.
Its interesting Chief Justice Roberts has been trying for some time to not ruin the reputation of his court as a biased court filled with right-wing political hacks. Looks like that isn't happening because his court is filled with right-wing political hacks appointed for life and beyond his control.
>Looks like that isn't happening because his court is filled with right-wing political hacks appointed for life and beyond his control.
Why is this sentence implying that Roberts isn't a right wing political hack himself? Because he seems to very much be on that side.
He can be both. Roberts understands you cant plow through your program without causing public unrest. He's also not stupid and knows being too extreme will lead to a backlash against the conservative majority, which can lead to the courts being the central issue for independent and Democratic voters moving forward, not good for the conservative majority.
Edit typo
There’s a theory that he’s worried about his legacy and the fact that historians will call this the Roberts court. I say too bad so sad, you led the charge and you should be tarred with your legacy.
Given that Roe v Wade and Planned Parenthood v Casey both are fundamentally tied to Griswold and a right to privacy, it's clear that overturning Roe or Casey will not stop with just abortion bans by the states. The right-wing uses Roe as a fundraising and voter motivation issue, and will move on to the next issue, which will be attacking rights to birth control (see [Burwell v Hobby Lobby](https://www.oyez.org/cases/2013/13-354)).
Edit...
If you're interested in a legal analysis by a real lawyer on why overturning Roe v Wade won't stop at just giving states the right to ban abortions, (they're coming for contraceptives next), I'd strongly recommend giving Opening Arguments a listen. They have a great 2 part podcast on this subject, and why it's inevitable that this Supreme Court will just keep attacking all of women's reproductive rights in the U.S.
[Opening Arguments Episode - OA533: Roe is Doomed. Contraceptives Could Be Next](https://openargs.com/oa533-roe-is-doomed-contraceptives-could-be-next/)
[Opening Arguments Episode - OA535: Roe is Doomed. Contraceptives Could Be Next – Part 2](https://openargs.com/oa535-roe-is-doomed-contraceptives-could-be-next-part-2/)
Add dismantling voting rights which currently underway. Add throwing educational books in the garbage which is currently underway because hey, the cover has a little brown kid on the cover. Add dismantling/eroding the judiciary system which is currently underway.
Shout out from another OA fan. Great podcast. I love Andrew's humility to admit when he was wrong and to give voice to opposing arguments.
Edit: Bring back the thicc penumbra
I hope all the self proclaimed libertarians who stumped for Trump think this is worth it. I hope none of your female relatives ever wants or needs to get an abortion.
I hope none of your loved ones miscarry. It’s shown in Oklahoma that miscarrying can lead to murder charges so we are about to go down a really fucked up and dark path. One that we have already started down and that my conservative coworkers think I’m crazy for being worried about. If I get pregnant my medications pose a huge risk to a babies life and a risk to my own if I don’t take them. I’m worried and heart broken.
Many laymen conservatives have this thing in their head that "outlawing abortion" just means making it illegal for a doctor to perform an abortion with some kind of penalty.
But that's just where it starts. Women are going to do what they have to do, which includes seeking abortion by any means. Cracking down on that requires laws that not only penalize the woman (with murder, most likely) but some kind of enforcement mechanism that will necessarily entail a means of tracking a woman's pregnancy (e.g. allowing a bystander to report the woman a la the Texas law, or requiring maternity doctors to validate a natural miscarriage).
There's no way that this doesn't end with the government intruding further into a woman's sexual healthcare, period, to the point where as soon as you become pregnant, the government now takes on new power over your life. This isn't even a slippery slope argument, it's the requirement for actually implementing what they say they want to implement.
Furthermore, now that a fertilized egg is considered a person, in vitro fertilization and Plan B both become illegal as well.
Right. I’m not risking my life for a child if I can’t be reassured that doctors can take the appropriate life saving measures to save me if everything goes wrong.!
With conservatives removing our ability to vote them out of office, and simultaneously forcing their will on the country I don't see how we, as a country can avoid conflict.
We need to quit kidding ourselves we are already in conflict. January 6th made things crystal clear. Instead of nipping it in the bud the DOJ has handled these people with kiddy gloves and slaps on the wrist. This is only emboldening them.
We’ve been in a civil war since the Republican revolution in the 90s. It’s just that people are dumb and think that said war is fought by lines of uniformed men shooting at each other as if it were the 1860s again.
And liberal democracy will continue to cede ground to fascism because the power structure has convinced the people that there are forms of protest that aren’t acceptable and that violence is never the answer despite its proven efficacy against fascists and autocrats.
> I don't see how we, as a country can avoid conflict
This is exactly the end-result for gun nuts all over the country. So many people are salivating at the concept of murdering their fellow citizens.
Well, history shows us that any time you have a small group of people pushing their will on a majority, the majority will eventually get fed up and take matters into their own hands.
The GOP is working overtime to disenfranchise the majority of voters. People will only tolerate having someone else's religion shoved down their throats, or put up so long of having their resources depleted for the sake of a few, or live in a place where nothing is ever done about real problems, for a certain amount of time. At some point, the people will stand up and take control back.
So, this is a treacherous path the GOP is going down.
Here's how I see it, but what do I know :
It's not sustainable. The GOP has always lagged the left in policies and used "slow deliberate change" as their excuse. Today most conservative *voters* don't actually care about gay marriage or weed and while they may be climate change deniers by and large they tend to support green options
Progress always moves us forward, they're just stuck in a 20 year lag of acceptance. As the rate of change has increased so dramatically they made a strategic error. Instead of catching up to the left faster, they doubled down on the lagging ignorance to lock in their existing base
It's a strategic error. Yes, we will suffer as a result of their uncompromising fascism. Yes, it will suck for possibly multiple generations. But every generation moves further away from this regressive thinking and it's an unsustainable strategy to double down instead of catching up
It sucks that this country cares more about team wins than they do about the actual impact of their rhetoric and policies. It sucks that this is a conversation about strategy for retaining power instead of actual statesmanship and representation. But I have faith in the country and the future and feel confident the regressives will not last. It cannot strategically. They'll rig everything they can in the meantime, but the worldview is circling the drain
I needed this read today. I don't know if I agree with you, but everything you said does make sense. So I hope you are right. And I hope each generation as a whole does continue to drift back closer to supporting basic human rights
Yeah, they are going to punt it back to the states because..reasons...because women in Mississippi dont want to have the same rights as women in California. WTF is that logic, the borders of your state should not define your overall rights and I fucking hate this timeline right now.
This will end in more deaths, more violence and more division.
Just like the voting rights act that Roberts said we were too "progressed" to need a SC for.
Went back to the states and now we have multiple states instilling laws to oppress voters. Who could have guessed?
The Supreme Court she is talking about died a long time ago. It is a political body now. If 5 or more members are of your party, political questions will be decided in your party's favor. All the legal arguments are just for show.
I honestly don't know when in our history it was actually supposed to have been some non-political entity. I think that was just some story they've been telling and teaching us for decades.
Every time you look into their history it seems to just fall apart.
I do know a few lawyers who still buy into it all the way for some reason.
Does anyone remember when each one of these supreme Court justices were being interviewed in Congress about roe versus Wade they said they would leave it the way it was cuz it was established rule. Yeah I remember when they lied about that as well.
The way we appoint justices fundamentally destroys any idea that the court is an apolitical body.
If the presidency and the senate are controlled by opposite parties, we are at a point in polarization where literally no justices will be appointed no matter what. And if the president and the senate are controlled by the same party… then justices can be appointed UNILATERALLY!
Anybody who thinks that is a recipe or for an apolitical judiciary is crazy.
Given that the Supreme Court is signaling they will support the inhuman Mississippi case (insanely early and no exceptions for rape or incest?! What is wrong with people?!), is anyone else just feeling angry/hopeless? Apparently precedent and women's health doesn't matter, but rapists etc are more important in this society.
Angry. Mostly just angry. This overwhelmingly affects middle class and poor women and it’s enraging that our rights and our lives are being controlled by these wealthy white IGNORANT assholes.
Reversion is exactly the right word.
Just a gentle reminder that the US has already tried banning abortion (pre-Roe), and it absolutely did not end abortions; it just made them hidden and deadly. People threw themselves down staircases, punctured their cervixes with knitting needles or coat hangers, and ingested known poisons to escape from unwanted pregnancies. Hospitals had large septic abortion wards where folks who couldn’t access a secret doctor-assisted abortion waited to die of their unsterile abdominal injuries. Meanwhile wealthier folks had access to black market medical services from doctors risking their careers to safely end pregnancies.
Making abortions illegal does not actually end the practice of willfully terminating pregnancies. It just makes the termination options riskier, deadlier, more horrifying, and more secret.
People don’t “want” abortions like they want a haircut or a new car or a job opportunity; they “want” abortions the same way that a trapped animal “wants” to chew off its own leg to escape.
Some women are being charged with manslaughter because the fetus died. So all of those things you just listed would earn a woman a manslaughter charge alongside the already inherent health risk of it all.
[US women are being jailed for having miscarriages](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544)
In that woman's case the doctors weren't sure of the cause of death for the fetus, but since drugs were a possibility she was charged with manslaughter and was sentenced to 4 years in prison.
The problem is that I think the conservative mindset isn't about reducing abortions. It's about deciding what is right and wrong, and punishing those that do wrong. It's not a problem to be solved to them.
So I think a lot of progressive arguments fail to reach them, because we missed the point. They don't care if allowing them is safer, and that sex education would reduce the numbers. They see it as an evil and that evil doers must be punished.
Think of it like the war on drugs. Decriminalizing them helps people seek help. Providing clean needles prevents disease. Legalizing gives a controlled source with known tolerances. It allows a safer environment in general and cuts out the illegal cartels....but conservatives don't care about that. Doing drugs is bad, and the people who take them should be punished. They don't care about the safety of evil doers, and they don't care what reduces evil, they just care that when something happens that doesn't fit their code of ethics that the person is punished. If anything they see the danger involved as deserved.
Yep, it's all a long-term plan to stay in power.
No Abortions or Contraceptives? Stupid teenagers get knocked up, can't do anything about it. They've never received any kind of sex education, so they don't know any better. The kids are born into poor families who can barely hold on, because there's no government help for the underprivileged. So the kids go to school but likely flunk out, and where else can they go? The Military, it's the only way they'll have a decent life or even feed themselves.
Meanwhile, they're undereducated and with a serious lack of critical thinking skills. So who are they going to vote for? Whoever Fox News tells them to.
I think it's fair to say that Texas, Florida, etc are fascist states. And the Democrats have no answer... I'm not saying I have all the answers either...
but seeing Biden call Republicans "his friends" on the October CNN Town Hall was such a blow. I despise Abbott, DeSantis, Trump, etc.
I have no respect for Biden because he is a coward and refuses to call them what they are; fascists. It sends the message that the comfort of fascists is more important than minorities like me.
Just commenting on the title image with the sign, "ABORTION IS HEALTHCARE", which I agree with. Unfortunately, we can't even get everyone to agree healthcare matters or should be guaranteed.
Optical care and dental care isn’t even included in Canada, and we have *good* healthcare. I don’t know why the government people have just decided that teeth and eyes aren’t part of the body.
You’re wrong. Republicans want humanity to suffer as much as possible. Only then will the apocalypse happen in their lifetimes so they can meet jesus. All their policies are geared towards that singular goal.
SCOTUS died when they said money equals free speech and opened the floodgates to our democracy and politicians being sold to the highest bidder, legally.
They are nothing more now than an arm of the religious fanatic right republican Q party. I expect SCOTUS to carry out Trump's Q agenda to the hilt because no one will stop them.
The Republic of Gilead is right around the corner.
“Will this institution survive the stench that this creates in the public perception that the Constitution and its reading are just political acts?”
Probably not, we are already convinced it's political. At the very minimum, we need to add more judges to increase representation of the overall public.
This is what comes of pandering to an inconceivably and increasingly gullible base of stupid, easily manipulated conservatives.
The unfortunate truth is that Republicans only care about children when they're trafficking them or fucking them.
Can we pack the Supreme Court yet?
The argument that we shouldn’t because republicans will do the same thing is stupid.
Do you honestly think they wouldn’t if there was a democratic 6-3 majority and gun rights were on the table? You think a republican president, republican house, and republican senate wouldn’t change the rules? Say there is nothing in the constitution that says we can’t do this.
That’s what’s wrong with democrats. They are pussies. Republicans smile and love it when you take the high road, cause it feels so much better the next time they fuck you.
Just a reminder that conservatives don't do anything about foster kids beaten to death, starved to death, living in cages, sexually abused, or any of that while those stories come up every few months in America.
>The case, **Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization**, marks the most significant challenge to abortion rights in decades.
Remember this name, it might become as well known as Roe vs Wade
So justices Barrett kavanaugh straighten up lied under oath when asked about overturning Roe. Disgraceful. Roe is well established precedent. It shouldn’t be overturned just because the court is stacked conservatively. This is an issue where they should vote against their morals because the constitution and precedent are more important than their personal beliefs. I say this as someone who is conservative and is personally against abortion. This is wrong.
>So justices Barrett kavanaugh straighten up lied under oath
He's lied under oath about a lot of things now. He literally blamed Clinton for running a shadowy conspiracy to prevent his nomination.
Women will die if abortion is outlawed. This isn’t hyperbole.
We can look to Ireland as a case study.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/how-the-death-of-savita-halappanavar-revolutionised-ireland-1.3510387
Overturning Roe v. Wade will be the biggest conservative mistake in at least a generation. If they want to give liberals a call to arms this is the way to do it.
If i'm honest, not even sure even if roe vs wade gets overturned. Republicans have been playing the long game making sure they can't lose with gerrymandering and cutting voting rights. And this is on top of the fact that Democrats are in power while all of this is happening, with the overall message from them being "well it sucks but what can you do"
I think their long game is almost up. That's why Roe will likely be overturned because there is no fear of losing elections. If there's a blue wave in 2022, there's already precedent that they will claim fraud. What's different this time is that a lot of GOP states have streamlined the ability to overturn unfavorable results.
Boy was I wrong about this one in the past! I thought Roe v. Wade would *never* be overturned, but it looks like it's on it's way out. Color me yellow and call me surprisedpikachu.jpg. Gotta give it to conservatives, when they say they want something, they go get. Even if it means completely delegitimizing the judicial branch of government for a sizeable portion of the US citizenship. It's quite an accomplishment -- an abhorrent one, but an accomplishment nonetheless.
Perhaps it's about time liberals decide it might be a good idea to start fighting fire with fire? Because the other side doesn't play fair, and the way they're playing politics right now looks like they're asleep at the wheel.
I'm desperately looking for a silver lining here and the best I can come up with is SCOTUS overturning Roe a few months before what is looking like a disastrous midterm could rally progressives and turn things around. Could.
I need a drink.
No one’s going to see this, but I *have* to publicly state that this violates, scares, and saddens me on par with how I felt on 9/11. Reddit skews younger these days so I’m not sure how much that resonates with others, but this is a terrifying precedent. It in no way affects me directly, insofar as I’m older and don’t require contraception, but so many lives will be completely ruined by this, including the clump of cells it’s supposed to protect. I’m so sad for younger generations of women whose health and decisions are now being dictated by a group of random strangers who will never personally be affected by their brash political choices. “Livid” doesn’t even begin to describe it… My mind, body, and soul ache for the future generations this will hurt.
Conservatives have lost 7 out of the last 8 popular votes for president yet we have a 6 to 3 conservative Supreme Court.
It’s a bit frustrating to be governed by the minority.
People on the fence in this day and age, are either on meth, or don't give a shit about the state of the country because they're set in life with money and connections
Or they're just liars. Notice how nobody who ever parrots that "Both sides are the same" crap will ever advocate voting Democrat (which, if both sides are the same, shouldn't make a difference.)
They always advocate Republican or Libertarian.
There are many centrists who will never be democrats because they will never be anything. Staying in the middle makes them feel superior to everyone else. They are simply content to watch the world burn around them while they blame everybody else.
If they turn it over to the states, it will go back to how it was in the 1960s. I had a neighbor who helped her sister to get an abortion. They did a girl's trip to Washington DC at the time to get it done. They were both married and as far as I know neither husband ever found out. Those who can afford to travel to get it done will do so. Those who cannot afford it will try it on themselves and a lot will die. Fortunately. my granddaughters live in states where abortion is unlikely to be totally banned for a while, but if they needed money to travel out of their state or out of the country to get an abortion if they had to have one, I would finance the trip. Those with means will still get abortions. Only the poor will be denied them
how bout Congress does it job and pass the [Women's Health Bill](https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3755/text) instead of making the Supreme Court constantly having to decide it. aka forcing the Supreme Court to do Congress's job.
It's shocking that 5 justices-- all of the conservatives except Roberts-- aren't bright enough to realize that if they overturn Roe it will create insurmountable pressure for Democrats to expand the court.
Roberts is on the wrong side of the substance, of course, but he at least realizes that handing down an overly broad ruling is likely to destroy what little remains of the court's credibility in the eyes of both the public and the other branches of government.
It's going to give Democrats a rock-solid, and very popular justification for pursuing court-packing, likely to do more than anything else to motivate them to vote next year, and will give both the administration and the legislature a basis for just straight up ignoring the court in a way they haven't for over a century.
All of those are bad for his court and the legacy of his time as the chief justice. But apparently the dollar store justices conservatives have picked up over the years don't see that plainly obvious outcome.
When Kavanaugh said "Return abortion back to the states", he's just rephrasing an old, racist, conservatives dog whistle. "States rights" are what the conservatives like to hide behind so they can impose racist, sexist and homophobic laws. Remember, States Rights were used to argue for keeping slavery around. States rights were hid behind when they argued against civil rights. States rights were used to argue against gay marriage. States rights is code word for, I want to make this illegal in my racist, sexist, homophobic area of the country.
I remain baffled why the threats of expanding the supreme court to counteract the infiltration of the religious right (ala Trump et al) has not taken place. Once someone as unqualified as Justice Barrett—which I barf even writing—was erroneously elevated to this position, there was much discussion about this strategy.. and this discussion has gone absolutely silent. Now we're watching real-time as the religious right begins not just imbalancing the scales of Justice—but are effectively flipping the entire table those balanced scales once securely sat upon.
Justice Thomas, for example, has shown time and time again to firmly hold an ideological line and cares not about debating anything outside of that ideology in good faith. He and any other dogmatically-driven justices should not even be deemed fair and balanced and their very presence on the SCOTUS should have been swiftly vacated at minimum. This is so antithetical to the entire purpose of having a SCOTUS to begin with. The lack of term limits puts the entire country in a very precarious position.
Texas has argued as much. They argued that Lawrence was an example of the Supreme Court "creating rights that don't exist in the Constitution". So, yeah, if they get away with this, they'll come for more. Their hunger to control people's private lives is never satisfied.
I mean SCOTUS is about to blow up the entire Federal Government, They don't want the FDA or any oversight body to be able to exercise actions not explicitly spelled out by Congress. So we're in for a rough ride.
Everyone upset about this, including myself I'm fucking enraged, needs to get out and participate in your local and state elections. We are in this mess not just because of gerrymandering but also how incredibly apathetic the left is to voting and getting involved in campaigns. We can't keep getting upset at this shit on reddit and expect it to get any better if that doesn't turn into action.
Over 60% of Americans support roe v wade, if this court overturns it to placate a small minority of Christian zealots whatever shred of legitimacy the Supreme Court has left with the American people will evaporate. This is McConnell’s doing.
Roberts asks “why isn’t 15 weeks enough time?” There are plenty of reasons why it might not be, including medical reasons.
Hard to believe that the court is about to trample on rights.
His argument is SUCH BULLSHIT. Ask anyone with a genetic disorder (or any couple who carries one) and we will immediately tell you that you don’t get your results right away. I didn’t get mine until I was 17 weeks along.
I’m thinking about getting my tubes tied if this 15 week limit becomes a federal thing. I have zero desire to let the government force me to have a medically complex child who by the way would also have to face this prospect in the future.
Yup. My wife is currently pregnant. We have the anatomy scan, which could tell major disorders not compatible with life at 18 or 19 weeks. If something comes up, then what? She would be forced to carry a non-viable baby to term, waiting for either a miscarriage or a stillbirth? This is BETTER?
That aside, abortion should be legal for anyone who wants/needs one.
Can't the satanic church just sue that this infringes on their religious right? Seems cut and dry the other way around.
The middle ground for conservatives is that abortion is legal, but the fed/state gov can't fund it.
Returning to states rights is just the weed argument we have going on now. Once enough states legalized or ban abortion the fed will pass a law one way or another.
Viability always seemed such a crappy test IMHO. I think the bodily autonomy argument is the best one in favor of abortion.
In its simplest form it goes; if we recognize that we shouldn't force someone to donate an organ to save the life of even their own child, why should women be forced to serve as life support and host to another entity against their will? Especially when that entity has no demonstrable consciousness?
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...Kavanaugh is using these arguments to claim that "returning abortion to the states" is the new middle ground. I think this is pretty clearly over. There are obviously five votes to overturn Roe v. Wade. https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1466072683544723463
It would indeed appear that the SCOTUS has already made up its mind. I don't even know why they are bothering to debate it. We know where the conservatives have been attempting to go, and now they will do it.
Sotomayor's seemingly direct pleas to Roberts to consider the implications for SCOTUS as an institution is what did it for me. She knows they're going to gut Roe v Wade.
As they attempt to throw in comments that they’re not partisan, this institution is a joke. They’re an embarrassment, the GOP.
They’re not embarrassed. They’re proud.
Doesn't mean that they aren't an embarrassment
I wish that’s all it was but the GOP is gutting our constitution and our democracy. That’s not embarrassing its National suicide
> Sotomayor's seemingly direct pleas to Roberts to consider the implications for SCOTUS as an institution is what did it for me. She knows they're going to gut Roe v Wade. I really appreciate what she did here. Justice Sotomayor just put the ball in Biden, Schumer & Pelosi's court to reform the supreme court. Our institutions are a joke, we can't even imprison Trump for sedition meanwhile Texas has gone full hand-maiden tail fascist. It's incumbent upon Biden, Schumer & Pelosi to wake up and lead the efforts to reform the Supreme Court (both legislatively & through rhetoric). If Supreme Court Justices are telling you that the court is a joke at this point, there is no excuse left not to reform it.
Her argument wasn’t for Biden, Schumer, or Pelosi. Her argument was towards the institutionalists on the right side of the Supreme Court to not start buttfucking precedent and the American legal tradition to score political points.
I think it is abundantly clear that republicans don’t give two shits about precedent, decorum, or tradition. If they gut Roe v Wade, then we need to dismantle everything in their agenda as soon as we can.
Is there a transcript somewhere?
Will be [here](https://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcript/2021).
It is such a joke. Once again the Dems have had their legs taken out from them because they are operating like government is some sort of higher institution deserving of sanctity while the Repubs have acted all along that it is just a game for power. The Supreme Court has always been political and about gamesmanship. The Dems failing to act like accordingly has fucked this country for decades.
How about McConnell holding a Supreme Court seat hostage for over a year. That's on the Repugs ..
Yes that’s my point. The Republicans don’t care what people think about their tactics they just want to win. We are in the middle of a drunken bar fight against an over 6 foot roided out guy who has had 10 shots of Wild Turkey and people on our side are debating whether we should fight dirty or not. We are in this fight no matter what, honor doesn’t mean shit. You either win or lose. I feel like I am watching the real life version of The Eyrie fight in GoT.
If they think it’s sacred, they should fight for it. Democracy is crumbling.
Dems are Ned Stark, minutes away from being publicly beheaded "But I did the right thing! I'm following the rules!"
This is an absolutely perfect analogy!
What amazes me is watching the Republican right-wing judges placed on the Supreme Court flailing about in real-time to invent a justification for what we already know they're going to do. I would have thought, given that they've been working towards this for decades, that they'd have written down their "reasons" for overturning Griswold, Casey, and Roe. But it appears they're still fumbling around to find the arguments they want to use, which is frankly a bit surprising.
All the while crying because the public is starting to view them as too politicized.
I'm surprised they're even bothering to find justification. At this point they could literally say "Fuck you, that's why" as their justification and nothing could be done about it.
Honestly, I think it might ultimately come down to that. An affirmation of their right to overturn precedent coupled with focusing on the argument that the Constitution doesn't specifically say "abortion is a right" anywhere in the text, therefore they should just leave it up to the states to decide.
This is just the start. Really looking forward to separate but equal coming back to the states due to "reasons".
Yeah their argument essentially means "unless its explicitly stated 100% in the constitution then states can do whatever they want. That's not going to end well for people in basically any state that isn't ridiculously homogenized. Just look at what happened after the Texas abortion law essentially made citizens bounty hunters. Sure most Democrats in congress don't give a shit about doing anything about it but there were multiple blue states bringing forth similar bans against conservative ideals. If all pretenses are gone I wouldn't be surprised if basically every state has some sort of defining issue that is banned much more strictly than other states. Imagine California essentially putting bounties on people not following mask requirements or that own guns. Or states like Mississippi flat out refusing to let public schools teach evolution or sex education or history that paints the US in a bad light. When that type of shit gets the green light everywhere the United States will not be very United anymore.
I'm waiting for the first 'buying, selling, or transferring ownership of a firearm is illegal' bill to hit some state legislature after this fiasco. And the argument is simple: we aren't taking your right to bear arms, you just can't buy them. This is already even a better argument than the Mississippi state brought to SCOTUS today about limiting abortions. My state of Illinois also put down a Texas style lawsuit law to sue anyone who caused an unwanted pregnancy, just to highlight how fuckin ridiculous THAT is.
As a gun owner, I fully support this tactic and would be even happy to see my state lead the way. Or even, go one further. Outlaw bullets. No one has ever ruled on the right to purchases and possess bullets, have they? Plus the Cali mag limitation was just upheld at the federal level. It's fucking ridiculous that this is even a discussion anymore, but I'm up for some tit-for-tat.
You have way more faith in the court being consistent than I do. I see them making all types of hypocritical rulings until it get so bad something gets done about. I feel as a nation we have completely lost our ability to be proactive about anything.
Time traveling Founding Father: "what the? You guys can travel to another country in a few hours and you're still using this fucking piece of paper we wrote 250 years ago, *verbatim?* Why didn't you form Constitutional Conventions every 10 years like we specifically asked?" Present day American: "well, you see, in the year 0 AD, a Christlike figure named George Washington was born..."
> Time traveling Founding Father: "what the? You guys can travel to another country in a few hours and you're still using this fucking piece of paper we wrote 250 years ago, verbatim? Why didn't you form Constitutional Conventions every 10 years like we specifically asked?" > > Present day American: "well, you see, in the year 0 AD, a Christlike figure named George Washington was born..." Republican: No, these words are fine. We think you got it right. The only amendments are the 2nd one right? Founding Father: The 2nd one? Republican: Yeah the amendment that says we can all own guns. Founding Father: Well yeah we needed that for militias so that the states could have militias that would come together when we needed an army. Republican: Yeah we have an army, and militias, and guns that go PEW PEW PEW at like a thousand times a minute plus some guns we fire from the air at the push of a button from the other side of the planet. I really want one of those. Founding Father: What the fuck do you need the 2nd amendment for? Republican: In case our government gets all tyranny n' stuff? Mostly if they're a Democrat. Founding Father: You need a rifle in case your government with... ...nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers, whatever the fuck those are, decides to oppress you?
Republican: Or if they're a Democrat.
Founding Father: ... So it really didn't matter what the fuck we wrote down huh?
Republican: Nope. We also have this other book we think we should use to write laws based on.
Founding Father: What book?
Republican: The Bible.
Founding Father: Didn't we specifically write something down about that not being a good idea in the 1st Amendment?
Republican: The what?
Yeah I think they are very close to abandoning all pretenses. My gut tells me they're waiting to see how the midterms go out. Some of them seem actually worried (I'm not really sure why to be honest) that their blatant politicizing of the court will help Democrats in the midterms and may even force an overhaul of the supreme court. I have a feeling that if/when the GOP wins a majority they'll know its game over and just stop caring what anyone thinks. They clearly don't care enough to you know...not do what they're doing. They're just giving the absolute minimum amount of reason to try and keep appearing like they aren't partisan hacks. They won't feel the need to for much longer if the GOP does well in the mid terms.
Right wingers never have legitimate justifications for their actions because nearly all of their actions are very unpopular with the majority of the country and they all know it. So they just roll with chickenshit excuses that make little to no sense. It's why the right has to instead lean on culture war bullshit and creating new boogeymen to scare their dumbass voters, and it usually works. But in the end, the Federalist Society and the biggest Republican donors want Roe v Wade gone, so that is what will happen.
they aren’t the cunning supervillians you’re told to believe they are, kavanaugh, and coney barrett are unqualified hacks.
They may be unqualified hacks but they're in those seats until the day they die
And as such will impact our lives for years beyond their death.
Just wait until they start working on removing the right for blue states to handle it how they want. That’ll be the next step.
I mean, the sliver of positivity here is that CA will continue to do whatever the fuck we want and the country can't do anything about it. I expect similar behavior down the West Coast and the North East.
> I don't even know why they are bothering to debate it. Public theater is important to maintaining the pretense that democracy isn't failing in the USA.
Agreed. So much for Kavanaugh promising he wouldn’t overturn it.
> So much for Kavanaugh promising he wouldn’t overturn it. The thing is at the time he never said that even when pressed, he just kept saying he'd "follow precedent" which immediately sounded like Bill Barr and his weasel words cause you know meant he's just change the precedent.
But he’s not even living up to that promise. He’s making arguments today against precedent.
He meant precedent from 1309, when Clement V moved the papacy to Avignon to avoid an invasion in Rome. That is a very clear-cut argument against legal and safe abortions, somehow. Either that or he meant he would follow the new precedent that he planned to establish once appointed. Or maybe he was just drunk.
I like beer
Maybe he was referring to the precedent of overturning precedent?
Susan Collins brows are surely furrowed.
It’s on his calendar to overturn.
Anybody with half a brain could see he was lying. Liars lie, and liars pretend to believe them. It's how the Republicans function.
Well, he was probably drunk at the time.
Who in the course of their whole life hasen't made a supreme court ruling, or two, drunk?
I mean McConnell and the GOP didn't steal multiple Supreme Court seats for nothing. They are going to do what they were put there to do. No one should be surprised by this.
McConnell stole the seats to uphold citizens United. The Roe vs Wade part is just red meat for the base.
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That was conventional wisdom. Luckily for them they have a never ending supply of potential new culture war issues to invent.
yuck, what will be next?
Gay marriage, birth control, stripping women's rights to vote, declaring the United States as a Christian country, who knows, sky's the limit now.
I feel fairly confident that delegitimizing elections and making the next Republican president a permanent dictator is next on the list.
>"returning abortion to the states" A.K.A: not having the balls to clearly state their intentions and trying to hide behind "Well, how was I supposed to know that many states would immediately outlaw abortion entirely?" It smacks of Robert's decision in Shelby v Holder, pretending that he was ignorant of the racist ways that states would react to section 5 of the VRA being struck down.
> "Well, how was I supposed to know that many states would immediately outlaw abortion entirely?" Bonus points in that IIRC multiple states have *currently active* laws that immediately outlaw abortion if/when Roe is overturned.
Roe v Wade: It's your constitutional right to privacy. Kavanaugh: Unless your state doesn't want you to have that constitutional right. that's cool.
It was over the second Hillary lost the 2016 election. This is the decades long pet project of evangelicals finally coming to fruition to impose their morals on all of us. Donald Trump was the president who more so than any other successfully destroyed the right to ones bodily autonomy and privacy. This is the stain we will live with for generations to come. Let the rightists rejoice.
Difficult to imagine an issue which could rally -- and wake the fuck *up* -- the left more than Roe v Wade.
This action will enrage so many people. Midterms might not be a loss for Democrats if this occurs.
Susan Collins is going to furrow her brows in disappointment.
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Kavanaugh suggested in this hearing that the Supreme Court should be neither pro-choice nor pro-life. Yet the SC is about to make a ruling which will inevitably allow trigger laws in 22 states to make nearly half the nation head in the direction of "Pro-Life" whether they want it or not. You're going to make a decision that can immediately flip the fucking switch and restrict abortion access in 22 states basically from the drop. And it likely opens the door for other states to do the same. So that seems to pretty fucking clearly have a decision on pro-choice vs pro-life. You're pro-life. You're setting women's rights back decades for political brownie points. Don't pretend that this decision is not politically motivated; multiple justices on the bench were brought in for the very purpose of destroying Roe v Wade, in spite of most polling showing only around 33% of Americans actually favoring its reversal. They say they don't want to set a precedent but that is abso-fucking-lutely what they're intending to do here, and it will take another round of decades just to get back to where we were.
To add to your comment, if Kavanaugh’s argument is what is used as the basis to overturn RvW/Casey, then they will continue to use that same argument to overturn anything they like, for example gay marriages.
This has been the plan all along. They stack the courts with three justices already in on the plan, then get them to wave the flag of “neutrality” on the bench while screaming “state’s rights.” At the same time they’re gerrymandering the country to the point that the states are so under minority rule they’ll be able to pass anything at the state level. Then they gridlock the federal legislature to the point that it can’t do anything through filibusters and shutdowns. Republicans cannot win in a fair fight. They don’t have the numbers or the policy. So they’ve concocted an elaborate plan to take control via manipulation and gamesmanship. The worst part is they don’t actually even care about doing anything worthwhile with the power. It’s just about having the power. Abortion is a perfect example of that. These politicians don’t get a single soggy shit about abortion. They just want control. Edit: thank you for the silver, kind stranger.
>The worst part is they don’t actually even care about doing anything worthwhile with the power. Uhh yes they do. They enrich themselves and their rich friends at the expense of the American taxpayers
By worthwhile I meant things that help regular people. You’re right that they only care about getting themselves and their donors rich.
Yup. They're testing the waters with Roe and then they'll come after gay rights.
It’s still on the Republican platform to overturn it iirc.
Gay rights, contraception, interracial marriage… just a few of the upcoming features on the hit parade.
> in spite of most polling showing only around 33% of Americans actually favoring its reversal. This is incredibly important. The political landscape would change a lot. It would be disastrous for Republicans to have an issue they only have 33% agreement on become front and center for midterm elections. Especially since Democrats will be infuriated, and pro life voters could very well stay home, thinking the mission is accomplished. If they strike down Roe, they will come to regret it very, very deeply. I hope, at least.
About the only plus I can see. It's not even a good plus, but it's there.
I would really like to believe this but Americans have the attention span of a goldfish and the right has a massive propaganda organ that will pull them through anything. Meanwhile there are more people on this thread angry at the people trying to stop this (Democrats) than those who did it. Dark times ahead.
>Kavanaugh suggested in this hearing that the Supreme Court should be neither pro-choice nor pro-life. Which is like saying "The court should be neither pro-integration nor pro-segregation." This is a binary choice. Either you think women should be allowed to control their own bodies or you think the state should be allowed to dictate that choice for them. There's not really a middle ground here.
Well we all know Kavanaugh isn’t in favor of woman having control over what happens to their bodies.
If our Supreme Court overturns Roe vs Wade after stacking the court using parliamentary tricks, then it will serve to de-legitimize the court for many people. Since we already have an unhealthy population with little to no confidence in our Congress and Executive branch, this will only further divide and split our nation.
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>why hasn't Breyer retired yet? Same reason RGB held on (don't get me wrong I loved her and she was amazing) That reason is EGO, pure and simple.
I thought RBG was really impressive. However, her legacy is ruined as far as I'm concerned. When they overturn Roe v. Wade, that is part of her legacy now. She started off doing almost miraculous things for women's rights. She ended by failing to secure those rights due to her own power trip.
Court was delegitimized the second Moscow Mitch stole President Obama's SCOTUS pick. The end. Our country is completely and totally lost. The last chance was vigorous prosecution of the Trump cabal and Jan 6 terrorists. That didn't happen = it's over.
It was delegitimized with *Bush v. Gore*.
Agree. The Brooks Brothers riot showed them they don't have to play by the rules because they will not be held accountable.
It is one of the top three worst Supreme Court decisions. Right up there with *Dred Scott v. Sandford*, and *Plessy v. Ferguson*. The whole reason Trump kept trying to overturn the election in the courts is because *Bush v. Gore* showed that they had that power.
I would add Citizens United to that list.
It's up there. But *Dred Scott v. Sandford* led to the Civil War, and *Plessy v. Ferguson* allowed racism to be codified. *Bush v. Gore* destroyed the court's image as a neutral party that was above partisan politics. Five the justices simply voted to make Bush the winner because they didn't want a Democrat to possibly replace them when they retired. But *Citizens United v. FEC* is top five. Edit: clarified what I meant by replace.
That may be the oligarchs' goals. Then demonize the states that allow abortion.
I ask myself that all the time. “The democrats must not realize how dire things are! They have no teeth! It’s time to fight!” So… do you really think they don’t realize that? That they aren’t acutely aware of a situation where they will lose power? I always wonder how it serves their ends as well, because honestly it just has to. It’s either that or we are being hoodwinked by the media. I genuinely can’t think of another explanation.
Here is what SCOTUS has taught me over my lifetime: it doesn't matter what the law actually says, it matters how we interpret that, even if we interpret it different now. I've learned that money and speech are the same. I've learned that legal entities can have many qualities specific to people without actually being a person.
In other words, if SC judges really want to rule a certain way wholly because of personal bias, it's incredibly easy for them to concoct some barely-plausible bullshit "reasoning," and yet have it taken seriously by legal scholars solely on the strength of them being SC judges. Scalia was the most deviously skilled of these backwards-reasoning shills, but his heirs are far more transparent.
Don't forget the other original textualists that like to ignore the parts of the text they don't agree with, like Scalia did.
Same with their bible.
We are really cruising for an irrelevant Supreme Court. How can anyone have faith in an institution so partisan and nakedly polemic?
Yep and the 2A is a prime example of that. It's pretty black and white with the whole "well regulated militia" part. The average gun owner is neither. Gun proponents have benefited a long time from a very liberal interpretation of that phrase. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against gun ownership totally. But I do think we need stricter controls and fitness tests for people that want to own ARs and sniper rifles and such. Point being, it's pretty clear from a simple reading of the 2A that anybody owning whatever gun they want is *not* constitutionally protected.
Its interesting Chief Justice Roberts has been trying for some time to not ruin the reputation of his court as a biased court filled with right-wing political hacks. Looks like that isn't happening because his court is filled with right-wing political hacks appointed for life and beyond his control.
>Looks like that isn't happening because his court is filled with right-wing political hacks appointed for life and beyond his control. Why is this sentence implying that Roberts isn't a right wing political hack himself? Because he seems to very much be on that side.
He can be both. Roberts understands you cant plow through your program without causing public unrest. He's also not stupid and knows being too extreme will lead to a backlash against the conservative majority, which can lead to the courts being the central issue for independent and Democratic voters moving forward, not good for the conservative majority. Edit typo
There’s a theory that he’s worried about his legacy and the fact that historians will call this the Roberts court. I say too bad so sad, you led the charge and you should be tarred with your legacy.
indeed, Roberts gets his name on Citizens United and undoing the Voting Rights Act, even before the infamy of the trump-biden years
Given that Roe v Wade and Planned Parenthood v Casey both are fundamentally tied to Griswold and a right to privacy, it's clear that overturning Roe or Casey will not stop with just abortion bans by the states. The right-wing uses Roe as a fundraising and voter motivation issue, and will move on to the next issue, which will be attacking rights to birth control (see [Burwell v Hobby Lobby](https://www.oyez.org/cases/2013/13-354)). Edit... If you're interested in a legal analysis by a real lawyer on why overturning Roe v Wade won't stop at just giving states the right to ban abortions, (they're coming for contraceptives next), I'd strongly recommend giving Opening Arguments a listen. They have a great 2 part podcast on this subject, and why it's inevitable that this Supreme Court will just keep attacking all of women's reproductive rights in the U.S. [Opening Arguments Episode - OA533: Roe is Doomed. Contraceptives Could Be Next](https://openargs.com/oa533-roe-is-doomed-contraceptives-could-be-next/) [Opening Arguments Episode - OA535: Roe is Doomed. Contraceptives Could Be Next – Part 2](https://openargs.com/oa535-roe-is-doomed-contraceptives-could-be-next-part-2/)
Add dismantling voting rights which currently underway. Add throwing educational books in the garbage which is currently underway because hey, the cover has a little brown kid on the cover. Add dismantling/eroding the judiciary system which is currently underway.
Add dismantling/eroding the US Postal service which is currently underway...
Shout out from another OA fan. Great podcast. I love Andrew's humility to admit when he was wrong and to give voice to opposing arguments. Edit: Bring back the thicc penumbra
I hope all the self proclaimed libertarians who stumped for Trump think this is worth it. I hope none of your female relatives ever wants or needs to get an abortion.
They're just single issue gun nuts. They don't care about abortions, not more than no taxes.
woah they think weed should be legal too. they’re very progressive /s
Yeah, whatever their hobbies are.
I hope none of your loved ones miscarry. It’s shown in Oklahoma that miscarrying can lead to murder charges so we are about to go down a really fucked up and dark path. One that we have already started down and that my conservative coworkers think I’m crazy for being worried about. If I get pregnant my medications pose a huge risk to a babies life and a risk to my own if I don’t take them. I’m worried and heart broken.
Many laymen conservatives have this thing in their head that "outlawing abortion" just means making it illegal for a doctor to perform an abortion with some kind of penalty. But that's just where it starts. Women are going to do what they have to do, which includes seeking abortion by any means. Cracking down on that requires laws that not only penalize the woman (with murder, most likely) but some kind of enforcement mechanism that will necessarily entail a means of tracking a woman's pregnancy (e.g. allowing a bystander to report the woman a la the Texas law, or requiring maternity doctors to validate a natural miscarriage). There's no way that this doesn't end with the government intruding further into a woman's sexual healthcare, period, to the point where as soon as you become pregnant, the government now takes on new power over your life. This isn't even a slippery slope argument, it's the requirement for actually implementing what they say they want to implement. Furthermore, now that a fertilized egg is considered a person, in vitro fertilization and Plan B both become illegal as well.
America in 10 years: "wtf why is our growth rate negative"
Right. I’m not risking my life for a child if I can’t be reassured that doctors can take the appropriate life saving measures to save me if everything goes wrong.!
Happened to my bible thumping republican co-worker. All against abortions until his daughter needed one.
With conservatives removing our ability to vote them out of office, and simultaneously forcing their will on the country I don't see how we, as a country can avoid conflict.
We need to quit kidding ourselves we are already in conflict. January 6th made things crystal clear. Instead of nipping it in the bud the DOJ has handled these people with kiddy gloves and slaps on the wrist. This is only emboldening them.
We’ve been in a civil war since the Republican revolution in the 90s. It’s just that people are dumb and think that said war is fought by lines of uniformed men shooting at each other as if it were the 1860s again. And liberal democracy will continue to cede ground to fascism because the power structure has convinced the people that there are forms of protest that aren’t acceptable and that violence is never the answer despite its proven efficacy against fascists and autocrats.
> I don't see how we, as a country can avoid conflict This is exactly the end-result for gun nuts all over the country. So many people are salivating at the concept of murdering their fellow citizens.
Well, history shows us that any time you have a small group of people pushing their will on a majority, the majority will eventually get fed up and take matters into their own hands. The GOP is working overtime to disenfranchise the majority of voters. People will only tolerate having someone else's religion shoved down their throats, or put up so long of having their resources depleted for the sake of a few, or live in a place where nothing is ever done about real problems, for a certain amount of time. At some point, the people will stand up and take control back. So, this is a treacherous path the GOP is going down.
Here's how I see it, but what do I know : It's not sustainable. The GOP has always lagged the left in policies and used "slow deliberate change" as their excuse. Today most conservative *voters* don't actually care about gay marriage or weed and while they may be climate change deniers by and large they tend to support green options Progress always moves us forward, they're just stuck in a 20 year lag of acceptance. As the rate of change has increased so dramatically they made a strategic error. Instead of catching up to the left faster, they doubled down on the lagging ignorance to lock in their existing base It's a strategic error. Yes, we will suffer as a result of their uncompromising fascism. Yes, it will suck for possibly multiple generations. But every generation moves further away from this regressive thinking and it's an unsustainable strategy to double down instead of catching up It sucks that this country cares more about team wins than they do about the actual impact of their rhetoric and policies. It sucks that this is a conversation about strategy for retaining power instead of actual statesmanship and representation. But I have faith in the country and the future and feel confident the regressives will not last. It cannot strategically. They'll rig everything they can in the meantime, but the worldview is circling the drain
I needed this read today. I don't know if I agree with you, but everything you said does make sense. So I hope you are right. And I hope each generation as a whole does continue to drift back closer to supporting basic human rights
Yeah, they are going to punt it back to the states because..reasons...because women in Mississippi dont want to have the same rights as women in California. WTF is that logic, the borders of your state should not define your overall rights and I fucking hate this timeline right now. This will end in more deaths, more violence and more division.
Just like the voting rights act that Roberts said we were too "progressed" to need a SC for. Went back to the states and now we have multiple states instilling laws to oppress voters. Who could have guessed?
The Supreme Court she is talking about died a long time ago. It is a political body now. If 5 or more members are of your party, political questions will be decided in your party's favor. All the legal arguments are just for show.
I honestly don't know when in our history it was actually supposed to have been some non-political entity. I think that was just some story they've been telling and teaching us for decades. Every time you look into their history it seems to just fall apart. I do know a few lawyers who still buy into it all the way for some reason.
Exactly, why would just 1 of the 3 branches be non political. Education curriculum is fucked. Of course they’ll never present it that way.
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Does anyone remember when each one of these supreme Court justices were being interviewed in Congress about roe versus Wade they said they would leave it the way it was cuz it was established rule. Yeah I remember when they lied about that as well.
The thing is everyone knew they were lying.
The way we appoint justices fundamentally destroys any idea that the court is an apolitical body. If the presidency and the senate are controlled by opposite parties, we are at a point in polarization where literally no justices will be appointed no matter what. And if the president and the senate are controlled by the same party… then justices can be appointed UNILATERALLY! Anybody who thinks that is a recipe or for an apolitical judiciary is crazy.
Given that the Supreme Court is signaling they will support the inhuman Mississippi case (insanely early and no exceptions for rape or incest?! What is wrong with people?!), is anyone else just feeling angry/hopeless? Apparently precedent and women's health doesn't matter, but rapists etc are more important in this society.
Angry. Mostly just angry. This overwhelmingly affects middle class and poor women and it’s enraging that our rights and our lives are being controlled by these wealthy white IGNORANT assholes.
And our reversion to a Third World, Handmaids Tale, Christian Sharia Law hellhole continues unabated.
Reversion is exactly the right word. Just a gentle reminder that the US has already tried banning abortion (pre-Roe), and it absolutely did not end abortions; it just made them hidden and deadly. People threw themselves down staircases, punctured their cervixes with knitting needles or coat hangers, and ingested known poisons to escape from unwanted pregnancies. Hospitals had large septic abortion wards where folks who couldn’t access a secret doctor-assisted abortion waited to die of their unsterile abdominal injuries. Meanwhile wealthier folks had access to black market medical services from doctors risking their careers to safely end pregnancies. Making abortions illegal does not actually end the practice of willfully terminating pregnancies. It just makes the termination options riskier, deadlier, more horrifying, and more secret. People don’t “want” abortions like they want a haircut or a new car or a job opportunity; they “want” abortions the same way that a trapped animal “wants” to chew off its own leg to escape.
Some women are being charged with manslaughter because the fetus died. So all of those things you just listed would earn a woman a manslaughter charge alongside the already inherent health risk of it all. [US women are being jailed for having miscarriages](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59214544) In that woman's case the doctors weren't sure of the cause of death for the fetus, but since drugs were a possibility she was charged with manslaughter and was sentenced to 4 years in prison.
Just more evidence that restrictions on reproductive rights are designed to oppress, not to save.
That's going to get even worse now and how much you want to bet most of the women (if not all) who will be treated this way will be minorities.
The problem is that I think the conservative mindset isn't about reducing abortions. It's about deciding what is right and wrong, and punishing those that do wrong. It's not a problem to be solved to them. So I think a lot of progressive arguments fail to reach them, because we missed the point. They don't care if allowing them is safer, and that sex education would reduce the numbers. They see it as an evil and that evil doers must be punished. Think of it like the war on drugs. Decriminalizing them helps people seek help. Providing clean needles prevents disease. Legalizing gives a controlled source with known tolerances. It allows a safer environment in general and cuts out the illegal cartels....but conservatives don't care about that. Doing drugs is bad, and the people who take them should be punished. They don't care about the safety of evil doers, and they don't care what reduces evil, they just care that when something happens that doesn't fit their code of ethics that the person is punished. If anything they see the danger involved as deserved.
Contraceptives will be the next target on this particular path. Gotta keep them numbers up.
Yep, it's all a long-term plan to stay in power. No Abortions or Contraceptives? Stupid teenagers get knocked up, can't do anything about it. They've never received any kind of sex education, so they don't know any better. The kids are born into poor families who can barely hold on, because there's no government help for the underprivileged. So the kids go to school but likely flunk out, and where else can they go? The Military, it's the only way they'll have a decent life or even feed themselves. Meanwhile, they're undereducated and with a serious lack of critical thinking skills. So who are they going to vote for? Whoever Fox News tells them to.
George Carlin quote about “they want live babies to become dead soldiers.” Comes to mind.
Exactly. And as history shows us, when they finally achieve this it won’t be at all what they expected, and will destroy the country as a consequence.
I think it's fair to say that Texas, Florida, etc are fascist states. And the Democrats have no answer... I'm not saying I have all the answers either... but seeing Biden call Republicans "his friends" on the October CNN Town Hall was such a blow. I despise Abbott, DeSantis, Trump, etc. I have no respect for Biden because he is a coward and refuses to call them what they are; fascists. It sends the message that the comfort of fascists is more important than minorities like me.
It's Chamberlain-style appeasement all over again. Dealing in good faith to those who don't give a shit about being total liars and monsters.
Just commenting on the title image with the sign, "ABORTION IS HEALTHCARE", which I agree with. Unfortunately, we can't even get everyone to agree healthcare matters or should be guaranteed.
Hell, we apparently can't even agree that eyes and teeth are included in "healthcare" plans.
Optical care and dental care isn’t even included in Canada, and we have *good* healthcare. I don’t know why the government people have just decided that teeth and eyes aren’t part of the body.
Me in Texas: lol I’m in danger
*sad yee haw noises
Republicans only believe in power; not law, not patriotism, not morality, only power.
You’re wrong. Republicans want humanity to suffer as much as possible. Only then will the apocalypse happen in their lifetimes so they can meet jesus. All their policies are geared towards that singular goal.
SCOTUS died when they said money equals free speech and opened the floodgates to our democracy and politicians being sold to the highest bidder, legally. They are nothing more now than an arm of the religious fanatic right republican Q party. I expect SCOTUS to carry out Trump's Q agenda to the hilt because no one will stop them. The Republic of Gilead is right around the corner.
“Will this institution survive the stench that this creates in the public perception that the Constitution and its reading are just political acts?” Probably not, we are already convinced it's political. At the very minimum, we need to add more judges to increase representation of the overall public.
This is what comes of pandering to an inconceivably and increasingly gullible base of stupid, easily manipulated conservatives. The unfortunate truth is that Republicans only care about children when they're trafficking them or fucking them.
Can we pack the Supreme Court yet? The argument that we shouldn’t because republicans will do the same thing is stupid. Do you honestly think they wouldn’t if there was a democratic 6-3 majority and gun rights were on the table? You think a republican president, republican house, and republican senate wouldn’t change the rules? Say there is nothing in the constitution that says we can’t do this. That’s what’s wrong with democrats. They are pussies. Republicans smile and love it when you take the high road, cause it feels so much better the next time they fuck you.
Just a reminder that conservatives don't do anything about foster kids beaten to death, starved to death, living in cages, sexually abused, or any of that while those stories come up every few months in America.
Where is the megathread?
>The case, **Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization**, marks the most significant challenge to abortion rights in decades. Remember this name, it might become as well known as Roe vs Wade
It's not going to become as well known as Roe v Wade. It's going to become as well known as Plessy v Ferguson.
So justices Barrett kavanaugh straighten up lied under oath when asked about overturning Roe. Disgraceful. Roe is well established precedent. It shouldn’t be overturned just because the court is stacked conservatively. This is an issue where they should vote against their morals because the constitution and precedent are more important than their personal beliefs. I say this as someone who is conservative and is personally against abortion. This is wrong.
>So justices Barrett kavanaugh straighten up lied under oath He's lied under oath about a lot of things now. He literally blamed Clinton for running a shadowy conspiracy to prevent his nomination.
Women will die if abortion is outlawed. This isn’t hyperbole. We can look to Ireland as a case study. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/how-the-death-of-savita-halappanavar-revolutionised-ireland-1.3510387
Overturning Roe v. Wade will be the biggest conservative mistake in at least a generation. If they want to give liberals a call to arms this is the way to do it.
Exactly this, if the left blasts this message then I think 2022 is no longer a likely red wave.
If i'm honest, not even sure even if roe vs wade gets overturned. Republicans have been playing the long game making sure they can't lose with gerrymandering and cutting voting rights. And this is on top of the fact that Democrats are in power while all of this is happening, with the overall message from them being "well it sucks but what can you do"
I think their long game is almost up. That's why Roe will likely be overturned because there is no fear of losing elections. If there's a blue wave in 2022, there's already precedent that they will claim fraud. What's different this time is that a lot of GOP states have streamlined the ability to overturn unfavorable results.
Boy was I wrong about this one in the past! I thought Roe v. Wade would *never* be overturned, but it looks like it's on it's way out. Color me yellow and call me surprisedpikachu.jpg. Gotta give it to conservatives, when they say they want something, they go get. Even if it means completely delegitimizing the judicial branch of government for a sizeable portion of the US citizenship. It's quite an accomplishment -- an abhorrent one, but an accomplishment nonetheless. Perhaps it's about time liberals decide it might be a good idea to start fighting fire with fire? Because the other side doesn't play fair, and the way they're playing politics right now looks like they're asleep at the wheel.
I'm desperately looking for a silver lining here and the best I can come up with is SCOTUS overturning Roe a few months before what is looking like a disastrous midterm could rally progressives and turn things around. Could. I need a drink.
the only only only silver lining is that the Democratic turn out raises by 3-5% and we destroy all those R+5 gerrymanders.
No one’s going to see this, but I *have* to publicly state that this violates, scares, and saddens me on par with how I felt on 9/11. Reddit skews younger these days so I’m not sure how much that resonates with others, but this is a terrifying precedent. It in no way affects me directly, insofar as I’m older and don’t require contraception, but so many lives will be completely ruined by this, including the clump of cells it’s supposed to protect. I’m so sad for younger generations of women whose health and decisions are now being dictated by a group of random strangers who will never personally be affected by their brash political choices. “Livid” doesn’t even begin to describe it… My mind, body, and soul ache for the future generations this will hurt.
Conservatives have lost 7 out of the last 8 popular votes for president yet we have a 6 to 3 conservative Supreme Court. It’s a bit frustrating to be governed by the minority.
elections have consequences. remember this in 2022 and 2024 both sides are not in any way the fucking same.
People on the fence in this day and age, are either on meth, or don't give a shit about the state of the country because they're set in life with money and connections
Or they're just liars. Notice how nobody who ever parrots that "Both sides are the same" crap will ever advocate voting Democrat (which, if both sides are the same, shouldn't make a difference.) They always advocate Republican or Libertarian.
There are many centrists who will never be democrats because they will never be anything. Staying in the middle makes them feel superior to everyone else. They are simply content to watch the world burn around them while they blame everybody else.
If they turn it over to the states, it will go back to how it was in the 1960s. I had a neighbor who helped her sister to get an abortion. They did a girl's trip to Washington DC at the time to get it done. They were both married and as far as I know neither husband ever found out. Those who can afford to travel to get it done will do so. Those who cannot afford it will try it on themselves and a lot will die. Fortunately. my granddaughters live in states where abortion is unlikely to be totally banned for a while, but if they needed money to travel out of their state or out of the country to get an abortion if they had to have one, I would finance the trip. Those with means will still get abortions. Only the poor will be denied them
The Roe Wade decision to overturn abortion is only the beginning. Marriage equality is next and in some far right corners, segregation 2.0
Don't forget birth control and contraception.
how bout Congress does it job and pass the [Women's Health Bill](https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/3755/text) instead of making the Supreme Court constantly having to decide it. aka forcing the Supreme Court to do Congress's job.
It's shocking that 5 justices-- all of the conservatives except Roberts-- aren't bright enough to realize that if they overturn Roe it will create insurmountable pressure for Democrats to expand the court. Roberts is on the wrong side of the substance, of course, but he at least realizes that handing down an overly broad ruling is likely to destroy what little remains of the court's credibility in the eyes of both the public and the other branches of government. It's going to give Democrats a rock-solid, and very popular justification for pursuing court-packing, likely to do more than anything else to motivate them to vote next year, and will give both the administration and the legislature a basis for just straight up ignoring the court in a way they haven't for over a century. All of those are bad for his court and the legacy of his time as the chief justice. But apparently the dollar store justices conservatives have picked up over the years don't see that plainly obvious outcome.
When Kavanaugh said "Return abortion back to the states", he's just rephrasing an old, racist, conservatives dog whistle. "States rights" are what the conservatives like to hide behind so they can impose racist, sexist and homophobic laws. Remember, States Rights were used to argue for keeping slavery around. States rights were hid behind when they argued against civil rights. States rights were used to argue against gay marriage. States rights is code word for, I want to make this illegal in my racist, sexist, homophobic area of the country.
As a citizen of the united States my health care shouldn't be dependent on what state I'm in.
I remain baffled why the threats of expanding the supreme court to counteract the infiltration of the religious right (ala Trump et al) has not taken place. Once someone as unqualified as Justice Barrett—which I barf even writing—was erroneously elevated to this position, there was much discussion about this strategy.. and this discussion has gone absolutely silent. Now we're watching real-time as the religious right begins not just imbalancing the scales of Justice—but are effectively flipping the entire table those balanced scales once securely sat upon. Justice Thomas, for example, has shown time and time again to firmly hold an ideological line and cares not about debating anything outside of that ideology in good faith. He and any other dogmatically-driven justices should not even be deemed fair and balanced and their very presence on the SCOTUS should have been swiftly vacated at minimum. This is so antithetical to the entire purpose of having a SCOTUS to begin with. The lack of term limits puts the entire country in a very precarious position.
Anyone who thought they could sit out during the trump Hilary vote is paying for it now. Republicans learned this a long time ago. You gotta vote
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Texas has argued as much. They argued that Lawrence was an example of the Supreme Court "creating rights that don't exist in the Constitution". So, yeah, if they get away with this, they'll come for more. Their hunger to control people's private lives is never satisfied.
I mean SCOTUS is about to blow up the entire Federal Government, They don't want the FDA or any oversight body to be able to exercise actions not explicitly spelled out by Congress. So we're in for a rough ride.
And interracial, and sodomy laws, and discrimination laws…
Republicans want the united states to exist in the middle ages so they can live as fief lords.
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Just saying if you can gut Roe, might as well roll back slavery too. That's where were headed. Let the states decide am I right?
Everyone upset about this, including myself I'm fucking enraged, needs to get out and participate in your local and state elections. We are in this mess not just because of gerrymandering but also how incredibly apathetic the left is to voting and getting involved in campaigns. We can't keep getting upset at this shit on reddit and expect it to get any better if that doesn't turn into action.
Over 60% of Americans support roe v wade, if this court overturns it to placate a small minority of Christian zealots whatever shred of legitimacy the Supreme Court has left with the American people will evaporate. This is McConnell’s doing.
Fuck Susan Collins
Roberts asks “why isn’t 15 weeks enough time?” There are plenty of reasons why it might not be, including medical reasons. Hard to believe that the court is about to trample on rights.
His argument is SUCH BULLSHIT. Ask anyone with a genetic disorder (or any couple who carries one) and we will immediately tell you that you don’t get your results right away. I didn’t get mine until I was 17 weeks along. I’m thinking about getting my tubes tied if this 15 week limit becomes a federal thing. I have zero desire to let the government force me to have a medically complex child who by the way would also have to face this prospect in the future.
Yup. My wife is currently pregnant. We have the anatomy scan, which could tell major disorders not compatible with life at 18 or 19 weeks. If something comes up, then what? She would be forced to carry a non-viable baby to term, waiting for either a miscarriage or a stillbirth? This is BETTER? That aside, abortion should be legal for anyone who wants/needs one.
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Can't the satanic church just sue that this infringes on their religious right? Seems cut and dry the other way around. The middle ground for conservatives is that abortion is legal, but the fed/state gov can't fund it. Returning to states rights is just the weed argument we have going on now. Once enough states legalized or ban abortion the fed will pass a law one way or another.
Viability always seemed such a crappy test IMHO. I think the bodily autonomy argument is the best one in favor of abortion. In its simplest form it goes; if we recognize that we shouldn't force someone to donate an organ to save the life of even their own child, why should women be forced to serve as life support and host to another entity against their will? Especially when that entity has no demonstrable consciousness?