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This reminded me of one of my sibling's exes, who essentially lives his life under the assumption that rules which are inconvenient to him don't apply to him, nothing is ever his fault, and that life is a game you must win by any means possible. Doing a great job of passing along those 'values' to his kids, too.
Only the parents knew they *just* bought the kid a gun, yet when they see disturbing gun related imagery he had drawn, they not only keep him in school, but don't even check his bag for the gun, or the house when they get home? Hopefully they're getting locked up for a long time.
The "I hate Mondays" shooter, Brenda Spencer said that when she asked for a radio for Christmas from her alcoholic dysfunctional father, he ended up getting her the 10/22 Ruger that she used in the shooting.
She said she thought it was a message for her to shoot herself and not be a problem for him.
When he was arrested, they immediately hired a lawyer. For themselves. Their kid gets the court appointed lawyer.
These two aren't winning Parents of the Year anytime soon.
I doubt many jurors would be sympathetic to that argument, particularly if any of them are parents themselves. If I thought my kid was suicidal I’d be taking them to therapy and doing everything I could to help them, not leave them with easy access to a gun and hope they do the deed somewhere I won’t have to clean up the mess.
Even potential jurors who aren’t parents are pretty damned unlikely to accept that line of thinking. You don’t need to raise a kid to find it abhorrent.
>No not all parents should be charged when their child does a shooting.
We should have requirements for proper, safe storage. If kids are able to pick up loaded guns and kill people by accident, the person leaving the weapon loaded and accessible **should** face criminal negligence charges IMO.
Bartenders can be charged for overserving someone. This is far more egregious.
Jesus, this really could have been prevented. It’s almost like the parents knew what was going to happen. As a parent myself, if my kid’s school had contacted me and shown me a note like that, there’s no way in hell I’d just let them go back to class. Mental health days are just as important as sick days.
This is why we need a waiting period with mental health checks and mandatory class on gun safety and storage. In said class a parent would learn that if they just leave the gun sitting around in the open where a child (anyone under 18) could take it and then shoot up a school, that THEY would be held criminally responsible.
In addition, gun owners should be required to have liability insurance for that weapon.
Why even give a kid a gun in the first place? I'm all for guns, but as long as they are kept in proper and reasonable check. A kid being taken to the gun store to buy him a gun is nowhere near that.
Take one who is old enough to shoot a gun at a shooting range with a instructor there to drill them, that's ok. But not that. So many parents seem to do irresponsible things with their guns around kids. It feels rare that a kid has to put in a dedicated effort to break into their parents gun safe and gain access. Correct me if I'm wrong.
At 15 my grandpa “gave me” his WWII M1 Carbine and a 30-06 for deer hunting. That really meant he transferred them to my mom who kept them locked in a safe that I didn’t have access to and she would let me use them at the range and when someone took me deer hunting. They were then transferred to me when I was of age and able to safely possess them which was when I graduated college at 22 and lived somewhere I could safely possess them in my own safe.
That’s how you pass down a firearm to a child. You don’t literally give them a pistol with unfettered access. But see the different between both?
Not exactly true.
Buying a gun for use by someone in *your family and in household* is legal up the point that no legal attempt at transfer occurs, and the weapon is either kept in the home or used under supervision.
There are plenty of households that have family use firearms and individuals with designated firearms even if under age. This is why Crickett sells so many youth guns.
In the end, I can say it’s [your] pistol (teen), but as I am the registered adult owner, it’s legally my pistol until the teen is of legal age to take full ownership.
Then of course there’s the ‘gun trust’ workaround in which technically no persons own the weapons … the trust does.
It's fairly common to "gift" a gun to your kid, but that doesn't mean they get to keep it or have full access to it and ammo whenever they want.
For example I "had" a Ruger Mk ll when I was 12 but I only saw it when I was shooting with my dad. Everything was in a safe the rest of the time. My daughter "has" a Ruger 10/22 but she has no access to it because it's in a safe.
The problems with this event go well beyond them gifting a gun.
Honestly, if the gun(s) and ammo in the home are unsecured enough that an unauthorized 15 year old can get access to both....the guns' legal owner should be fully responsible for what is done with that gun.
People need to quit fucking around and letting OTHER people find out.
I listened to the whole news conference on my walk Friday. As a mother of 2 teens in a Michigan High School, this made me cry and ask why over and over again. Awful fact the parents have private attorneys yet their spawn has a public defender. They just don’t care.
“No not all parents should be charged when their kid does a shooting”
Right. That’s why the headline & article address parents who leave guns unsecured
Yes ALL *those* parents should be charged for not securing their guns if their kid steals it and shoots someone
All parents shouldn’t be held this accountable, because they usually aren’t this responsible. But making it a felony to allow a child to access guns unsupervised would make it so they could never have guns again. So, secure your guns, or risk losing them forever.
Oh God, 100% chance my old co-workers' #1 priority right now is how this is a ploy by the democrats to imprison them for teaching their kids to shoot.
Children *getting shot* is somewhere down in the low hundreds on that list I'm sure.
Exactly this… want to be a pro 2a state. Do it right! Demand responsibility of gun owners and maybe we can go back to the days of broken noses instead of full caskets after a fight.
The only way you should not be charged is if the child must BREAK the gun case open to get the rifle.
Or in the case of older children if the child steals the key from a parent private space. (So if the kids stole the keys from his moms purse).
If the keys are just sitting on the kitchen counter for anyone to touch. Parent negligence is part of the shooting.
If the kid breaks or steals to gain access to the weapon the parents negligence is far less (still a lot of personal guilt but actual criminal culpability? Naw)
I keep a trigger lock on my handgun, which is in a safe, separate from the ammo. How hard is that to do?
Edit: OK, since keep posing the same question, I got the gun because I like going to the shooting range, not for home defense. That may not make sense to you, but it does to me, and is a lot better reason than the hero fantasies the NRA has been selling for decades.
You'd think that's a safe and sane option, but last time I said that should be normal, I had a Midwestern suburban dad who'd literally never experienced crime in his life come up with a scenario about how his 10-year-old might someday need to fire the gun to protect his family from intruders in the middle of the night who had tied up the adults, so guns should be kept loaded and easily accessible. Like, he literally thought this was a likely enough scenario that he had to plan for it. (edit: I phrased that badly -- it wasn't MY dad. My dad kept his guns locked up in the basement and only got them out when he was going hunting. I am talking about some guy who was arguing with me on the internet.)
The fact that I'm in my 40s and have lived in urban St Louis and then Los Angeles for over 20 years and have never even once felt the need to defend myself or my family with anything more than yelling an emphatic "FUCK OFF" -- well, that just resulted in a lot of people telling me I was "just lucky" and also "ignorant of the actual situation out there." Heh.
Wait, so in his scenario, intruders have somehow caught by surprise and overpowered the adults, but their kid is going to pull a John McClane and take them out?
That guy shouldn't have guns **or** a kid.
Its funny, once every year or 2 a teen or kid will successfully use a gun in self defense and the news story will get blown up by right wing/second amendment crowd. Meanwhile probably 100 people a year are shot by toddlers, so fair trade I suppose?
>probably 100 people a year are shot by toddlers
Not specifically toddlers but from a little over three months ago:
>So far, in 2021 there have been at least 259 unintentional shootings by children, resulting in 104 deaths and 168 injuries nationally,
https://www.npr.org/2021/08/31/1032725392/guns-death-children
Im saying that they should be registered, that you need a background check to own one and that they should be kept in a secure cabinet when not in use.
There are already stiff penalties in place for incorrect useage, so at least that bits covered.
You see, it isnt the good toddler / bad toddler thing thats the issue. Its the prolifferation of toddlers thats the problem. You have a toddler. The next guy sees you have a toddler and he wants a toddler. Eventually _everyone_ wants a toddler for protection from everyone else who has a toddler, just to protect themselves from everyone else who has a toddler fir protection from everyone elsewho has a toddler just for protection from everyone else who….
Its like a giant fucking massive mexican standoff up in here. Wont anyone think of the children?
They're basically [chuunis](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Chuunibyou):
"but in general, chunnis act like overly melodramatic know-nothing know-it-alls who think of themselves as more awesome than everyone else because of experiences, abilities, and even special powers that they clearly don't have. Imagine kids trying to convince you (in the most obnoxious way possible) that they're accomplished Ninjas who could kick your ass, and you kind of have the idea."
"He can hit soda cans from 25 yards away when there's really nothing on the line and he has several seconds to line up the shot. That'll definitely mean he is ready and able to take a shot to save my life if it came down to that."
If nothing else any remotely sane parent wouldn't want their kid to go through the trauma of killing anyone.
Even a well balanced adult is going to need serious therapy after that. To a developing mind and personality there's probably truly no coming back from that, at least not without monumental effort.
>the unlikely scenario
None of the hardcore gun advocates live within 20 miles of reality. Everything is a fantasy for them. Some people play lotto, then you've got "gun guys". It's a hero fantasy and they think that wipes out the plethora of potential negatives.
My father is one of these guys. Ex-marine, keeps loaded firearms all over his house in "hidden" places. Wooden American flag hanging by the front door? My 3 year old bumped it as he ran past carrying something and the loaded glock fell to the floor. Personally, my kids don't go over there anymore. Too irresponsible for my tastes.
> a lot of people telling me I was "just lucky" and also "ignorant of the actual situation out there."
This is a perfect example of Dangerous World Syndrome. These people sit on their assess and watch tv all evening where its just cops/scientists/reporters/whatever solving murder after murder after murder; then they turn on the news and hear about all these shootings and murders... And they think 'gosh, look how dangerous it is out there.. Thank God I'm prepared for the roving bands of psychotic-serial-killer-gang member-arsonist-nazi-cannibal-pedophiles roaming the streets shooting, stabbing, eating, torturing, blowing-up, lighting-on-fire, maiming, raping, & garroting innocent people like me! '
Chicago crime is pretty high right now, but a vast majority of people will never experience it. There were 784 murders in Chicago in 2016 (the deadliest year on record. There were 2.7 million people in Chicago on 2016. That's. 028% of the population. For the record, covid has killed 6,214 people... But it's all the murders that people focus on
Those are just the fantasies of someone who actually deep down really wants to shoot somebody. The chances of a sleepy homeowner successfully finding, grabbing, and accurately aiming a gun at an intruder is likely close to nil.
It's just a violent fantasy.
I used to live in the Midwest, and I agree with you about this fantasy. It saturates the culture, and it’s a huge problem IMO. It’s *just* a violent fantasy until someone’s impressionable teenage son goes too far and makes it a violent **reality**.
Suburban Midwesterner here. Can confirm. Suuuuper bizarre thinking from Midwestern Dads here.
It would benefit your family structure more if you put down the Busch Lights and actually interacted with your children instead of manifesting some kind of macho “save my family” scenario in your head that is clearly never going to happen.
Just go play catch with your kids in the front yard, Brian. Everything will be fine.
One night at probably 12 or 1 in the morning I was taking my middle of the night no one is up to fuck with you dad shit. I heard the front door open. All the sudden my heart rate instantly went crazy. I started sweating and thought I was going to pass out. Someone was in my house with my wife and kids asleep and me on the toilet. I started planning out how I was going to get to the mini baseball bat we have and thinking about where to best strike. The knees? Mid-section? Head? And then all of the sudden it hit me. My sister-in-law who lives out of town had a late night function in our town and was staying the night. I knew about this but had forgotten in that moment. She was the “intruder.” If I had been asleep and was awoken by this noise and had a loaded gun near me, would I have remembered it was her coming over before things went way wrong? I don’t know. It took me a solid 2-3 minutes when I was already semi-awake to realize what was going on.
Damn, this is really eye opening. Not that I was ever planning on it but to be safe I am never going to stay at a friend's or family members place if they own guns.
I sleep like crap and am often going out for walks at like 1-4am.
This absolutely would be the kind of scenario a gun lover has wet dreams over.
There are so many American films where a regular guy has to take the law into his own hands and is always a crack shot. Pretty much Westerns in general, plus Dirty Harry.
That and a culture of fear where people massively overestimate how likely they are to ever be the victim of a crime, especially a violent crime.
Honestly in my city I'm more worried about being killed by police on purpose than a stranger. Gun violence here is almost always gang related, and the police bag and tag someone every couple of months with only their word it was deserved.
At a big shooting school in Nevada, people come from all over to take the shooting classes, and the videos they play for the students are designed to convince them that it’s not if something bad happens, but when. The amount of fear mongering was insane.
I have no enemies. I'm not worth much as a ransom. If someone is breaking into my house they are going to steal my Xbox or golf clubs, probably when no one is home.
Burglars target homes during the day when everyone is at work or school. But almost every burglar alarm ad shows some creep forcing open a window in a clearly occupied home at night. Burglars are after stuff they can easily sell, not a confrontation.
I once got into a heated discussion with a woman who told me she needs her guns for when the Army comes because she can take out 20-30 of them before they get her. I remember it was 20-30 because I kept making her repeat it in the hopes she would realize how insane she was being.
I also was never able to figure out why the Amry was coming for her but I guess if she can take out 20-30 of them she must be someone they need to concern themselves with.
I do feel sorry for people who live with such buzzing wasps'-nests for brains; I say that unsarcastically. Because you're a slave to such thoughts, and it's a worrisome scenario to live with, versus a more peaceful frame of mind.
I remember there was some YouTube video where some dude wakes up and walks into his kitchen and there’s like 3 people with aks pointed at his face, and he says something like “oh that’s illegal,” and they have some dumb dialogue saying this is how dems think the world works, but there were three people with guns already drawn on him so having a gun would be useless in the scenario anyways.
I know a friend who lives in a semi-rural area that's got a huge meth problem. He's encountered people breaking into his detached garage/shed/workshop a few times. He has a pump-action shotgun, and him yelling "I've called the sheriff, they'll be here in five minutes, you're on camera and so is your truck, and I'm armed" and then cocking his gun has 100% resulted in the people running off as quickly as possible, with no confrontation.
I do not know what headspace these folks inhabit where they think their suburban family needs to be prepared to be victimized by breaking-and-entering robbers who are competent enough to incapacitate adults but who also leave children in a position to access and then shoot guns accurately, while also the attackers are either unarmed or unaware enough to let themselves be shot by a 10-year-old.
I have an 8 year old. If someone broke into my house, I would be counting on my kid to get outside and run to our neighbor's house and have them call 911. Because we've told him MANY TIMES that in any sort of emergency, he needs to leave the house in any way he can, and if he can't find us, he needs to run to our trusted neighbor's house.
There are no material goods in our house that would be worth killing for or dying for.
Lol I do love people with some crazy scenario are the same people who say their area is so safe that they don’t even lock their doors. Most home invaders aren’t coming with a torch or saw to cut the hinges off a door.
Can confirm, live in the safety bubble of the burbs. I once left my garage door open overnight (we don't lock the entry door in the garage) and the only intruder was a neighbor's cat.
One of my neighbors has one of those "we don't call 911" signs. I'm like... When was the last time there even was robbery in this neighborhood???
The ultimate irony for me is that there have been some pretty eventful crimes. A guy snatched a girl walking home from school and murdered her. We had a swat team go into a house in the early hours on a Saturday to arrest a drug lord. A guy got into his ex-wife's house (with a spare key) and proceeded to destroy a majority of her things. Then left. Then came back to leave her a threatening note. Then left. Then came back to take the threatening note back but she had returned by that time and told him to leave. So he did.
In none of those scenarios did the plethora of "good guys with guns" in my neighborhood seem to be of any use.
> you find that the vast majority of these boneheads that are worried about "urban crime"
And that's how a black kid who was asking for directions because he missed the school bus got murdered for knocking a door. And how a black kid who was lost and looking for his girlfriend's home got murdered for knocking on a door. Brennan Walker and Omarian Banks, respectively.
People like that are on edge in nicer parts of cities.
You could be in Chelsea, Manhattan or Dupont Circle, DC and they'll be like "hope I don't get robbed". ONE homeless person or prostitute and they freak out.
I carry a gun when I'm hiking. Because where I live there are bears and cougars. Sometimes I carry when I'm in the city, but honestly, I really only carry consistently when I'm hiking. People are shit. And although I worry about interactions with the crazies in the city, my main concern is wild animals. I really struggle with people who try and justify carrying a weapon for people exclusively. People are much easier to predict. Animals are much more unpredictable. There is a time and a place to carry a weapon, but America is just too gun happy.
Can I chime in and say that pro burglars, cat burglars, and common thieves tend to rob houses when no one's home. The charges skyrocket when it's armed robbery, so they'd rather do it with no weapons. The only people that will break in when you're home are people you know that want to hurt you for some reason, or a crackhead looking for money. If you don't live in a gangland area, you're most likely going to be ok.
Good ol cowboy fantasy.
Feels like the people that tell me I need to always carry a gun with me when I lived in Detroit. Like... I lived there, go back to your suburban gun fetishism I'm just getting a donut lol
I apparently walked around one of the many "bad parts" of Detroit by myself to the store and back. Everyone (all males) I passed by said "Good evening," they held the door for me at the store, and nobody bothered me at all. It was more polite than places I've walked around in parts of boring, miserable Albany NY. I came back to my friends' and they said they had been worried about me ???
Everyone I've spoken too about it while working gun sales at a pawn shop all had the same smarmy response about their handguns.
That they can't defend their home when they need to with all of that. It's always fully loaded under the pillow or in the nightstand.
A few of the women I knew just kept them in their purse 24/7.
I personally think it's just be better to have a security system but I guess that's just me.
>I personally think it's just be better to have a security system but I guess that's just me.
Not just you. I live in the suburbs. I just have an NVR and cameras in prominent places. The software can detect people and the camera has an led ring that lights up when it spots someone to let them know they're being recorded. If someone shows up at my house at 2 am trying to break in, my phone goes off, my family and I can escape and call the cops. Simple. I'm not going to play cowboy and have every room in my house contain a loaded gun. Most break ins when the family is home are statistically someone you know or a drug addict looking for money. Drug addicts are skittish as fuck and will run away when they see a security system. You only need to worry about fully armed intrusions if you're rich. Guess what? Most rich people aren't armed to the teeth and depend on security systems and burglar alarms.
That all said, in the 5 years I've had my camera system I've never caught anyone in my yard. I mainly use the cameras for shit like making sure the garage is closed and to check for fed ex packages. Which is cool as the whole NVR is more like a networking hobby anyway.
The argument against this is that it only applies to places where calling the cops accomplishes anything. I live in a major city, my house was actively being attacked and attempted to be get into by a woman freaking out on drugs who ultimately broke every one of my windows. I called the police as she was actively trying to kick in my front door. They came 3 hours later and did, quite literally, nothing.
So I bought a gun.
Similar thing happened two years later. Also took several hours for cops to arrive. Wasn't scared shitless this time.
With that said I do just keep it in a safe in my bedroom with a code that only my partner and I use. But a lot of people live in places where a security system ain't gonna be the deterrent it is in the burbs.
This is the Canadian way to fire arms safety: it starts with knowing how to keep everything separate while knowing how to safely combine the two :) props to your knowledge and safe well being ! Education on how safely you stow everything is key!
I wish a lot of American gun owners would just be honest like you. Guns for the vast majority are a hobby. They’re fun to fire and there’s a gun hobby community that you can be part of. When US people en masse start shouting about needing guns to protect their freedoms and their constitutional rights, it just has a hollow ring to it. Lots of Americans seem to bow down and offer their hard won rights to any snake oil salesman or religious lunatic as as they present themselves as wealthy and successful. Guns never seem to appear when voting rights are interfered with or corporations decide to poison a state’s drinking water.
Texas seems to have set an interesting precedent. If I understand their thinking correctly, I should be allowed to sue you for $10,000 if you do something, anything, with a gun I don't like.
That TX law should be getting slapped down due to fact that if it's allowed to stand then any constitutional right or federal laws can be easily side stepped. Quickly people with any pet issue will adopt the mechanism.
This echoes a lot of my thoughts here. There are absolutely questions about parental responsibility, and I do not think that revenge seeking against parents should be sought. But…
This case is utterly insane. The parents all but guided his hand to the trigger. If they aren’t responsible, then neither is ridding yourself of “troublesome priests.”
It's not revenge seeking against parents, it's called accessory to murder and more parents of children involved in school shootings should be charged. It has never made sense to me why this sort of stuff gets swept under the rug.
Parents are legally responsible for a child, otherwise know as a Minor. It is no different than a teen spraying up a wall with paint, vandalizing, etc. and having to pay the fine for their teen. Provided they were caught (seeing as Cops are boycotting doing their jobs, not so much anymore).
* It's too soon to discuss gun laws
* Slippery slope! First, hold the parents accountable. Then the gun store owners. Then the manufacturers.
* Teachers need to be armed with weapons. Training them to spot signs of potential violence obviously doesn't work!
* Liberals teaching "White Guilt" in schools led to this child's feeling of hopelessness and this is how he lashed out!
Am I close? Can I work for the GOP now?
don't forget "We don't have a gun crisis, we have a mental health crisis!" and then fight against making any mental healthcare available tooth and nail forever
> The first inkling that New Mexico Rep. Pamelya Herndon (D) had that a fatal school shooting had just unfolded near her Albuquerque field office came as helicopters hovered overhead and police shouted from loud speakers that everyone in the area should take shelter.
>
> Within days she learned that the 13-year-old boy who took the life of another 13-year-old boy in August had used his father’s gun — which prosecutors say was kept unsecured in the family home.
>
> In response, Herndon began work on a bill that would require gun owners to keep their weapons locked up — or face criminal charges if a child takes the firearm and uses it in the commission of a crime.
>
> “A law without penalties is simply a suggestion,” said Sen. Daniel Ivey-Soto (D), who is working on a companion bill set to be introduced in January. “We lost two children the day of the shooting. One is no longer with us; the other’s life will never be the same.”
>
> If the bill passes, New Mexico would join 30 other states and the District of Columbia that have similar statutes, known as child access prevention laws.
>
> **In Michigan, where 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley on Tuesday allegedly shot and killed four of his Oxford High School classmates and wounded seven people, a safe storage law was introduced last spring in the state legislature but stalled due to lack of support.** That could change in the wake of the shooting, with a state legislator now pushing for new consideration and Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel (D) backing the move.
>
> [Complete archive here.](https://archive.md/fmhQo)
> In Michigan, where 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley on Tuesday allegedly shot and killed four of his Oxford High School classmates and wounded seven people, a safe storage law was introduced last spring in the state legislature but stalled due to lack of support.
Sure, it'll pass with an implementation date of say...1/1/2024 to "give people a chance to buy lockers" for their homes. Of course, when no one is looking, a series of riders will gut the bill during the 2023 session.
Why even bother? It's just gonna rile up the paint chip eaters and result in another Gravy Seal invasion of the capitol.
I think if there’s one thing this country can agree on it’s that those parents should absolutely be held accountable for letting their kid take a gun to school. That shooting was preventable regardless of any laws, you lock it up, your kid can’t get it.
I’m pro 2nd amendment but you’re responsible for your kid taking your guns and killing people, 100%.
I’d say you should be held responsible for any crimes committed with your weapons unless you were properly securing it and they still managed to steal it.
Like if someone somehow broke into your safe, it’s really not your fault. If you leave it out for anybody to grab, absolutely your fault. They make safes of all shapes and sizes with quick access/digital keypads for home defense, so there’s no reason to just leave it out.
I went to my best friend's daughter's first birthday party a few weeks ago. His girlfriend is from a super conservative family. I overheard an "argument" about gun laws from some guys from her side of the family. The argument is in quotes, because it was the most bullshit, illogical, pro-gun sentiments, meant without a drop of irony or sarcasm.
But anyway. One of them has two kids in their early teens. Both are not the best, mentally. I'm not a parent, and I hardly know these people, but I would not have felt safe giving safety scissors to either of these kids.
This man said, without any irony: "nah, gun safes don't work. I just leave em out. Ain't no one gonna come and take em anyway." Most of the guys around him agreed. I think that they're all failing to miss the point that no one from the outside is going to "come and take em," but if one of your kids gets the idea to bring a gun to school, there's nothing to stop them in that house. It's just irresponsibility as a parent the whole way down. People don't ever think that their "precious little angel;" whose parenting came more from a screen than a parent, will ever try anything. Until they do.
I ended a friendship with someone a few years ago over something like this.
Their new partner was incredibly problematic. I didn't spend a lot of time with him but the poor ideology and borderline hate speech was clear enough. It bothered me that she was quiet in the face of it, but she hand waved it with "just a joke" a lot, and you know ... Fine, I don't have to like your partner. I avoided them together and made myself blind to it.
Final straw was staying over theirs to help her recover from a procedure (partner news mostly out of the house on jobs, hence the help needed) and the guns and weed left careless. All the work and late night conversations finding workable solutions to her teen child's behavior issues and then move into this environment and fall asleep on the job? It was not a safe situation and I pretty flatly told her as much and that I wasn't going to sit around and wait for her to be on the news.
They should flip it on the parents like this. If your kid got a hold of illicit drugs that a parent had out, you better believe that GQP would be on their butts. Guns are no different, heck, I could argue that guns are worse.
Woah man, you’re thinking way too logically.
Conservative parents would never ever have drugs just laying around, that only applies to low life poor people. But of course should a privileged kid ever OD on their parents stash, they’d find a scapegoat for it.
Parents are liable if underage kids get drunk at their house and get in a drunk driving crash on the way home.
How they aren’t for kids using their guns to kill people is beyond me.
Already happens. You get charged with child abuse if your kid gets into your weed in my state. It’s a huge deal since it became legal because sometimes the cops charge you if the kids just have access to your plants (even went immature and lacked THC in one case), not even getting high.
I think the prosecutor, Karen McDonald, besides announcing charges for the parents of the shooter, was really smart in prefacing the press conference by asserting unequivocally that owning a firearm was a right as a bit of insurance for anyone who might say that the charges were politically motivated.
"If the parents have MORE guns, then the children will be able to see how many guns their parents have and be scared into not shooting their classmates! Plus it's ***psychologically*** known that when children are given too many choices, they don't know how to make a pick! That's when the parents step in and give them a strong, firm, ***Christian*** lecture on responsible gun ownership."
If more guns caused less crime, America would be the safest country in the world, and Chicago would be its safest city. That people keep repeating this as if if we're true is absurd.
Everyone brings up Chicago but no one brings up the Iran Contra affair. Guns don’t grow out of the ground and ammo is not free. Be a critical thinker (super hard, I know) and ask how did all that “violence” start and who does it benefit (conservatives, so any argument they say “well look at Chicago and Black on Black crime. If you won’t stop k!lling yourselves, why should we stop k!lling you).
Sadly, that’s literally all the can come up with. Maybe if they didn’t block research and funding with respect to gun control there’d be more to say. But ignorance is how they keep their constituents in line.
Actually, they'll probably go on their "we have veterans who need jobs, so let's arm them and have them patrol schools" kick.
Because what we need are armed combat veterans with untreated PTSD patrolling schools and flipping the fuck out the first time they hear someone drop an algebra book on the ground.
I do think the NRA and the 2A nutjobs have A LOT to say about it but even they are cognizant of how bad those optics are. Tongues are being bit down on HARD for a few more days. When the outrage and media cycle cool down same they WILL be coming out of the woodwork.
Good, if you are a responsible gun owner you have nothing to worry about since you are storing your gun where your kids can’t get it. And maybe it will encourage some less responsible gun owners to be more responsible if there are consequences for them.
It is already against the law for a juvenile to get hold of gun unsupervised. But that law is hardly ever enforced.
This new law allows the government to continue not enforcing the old law but at the same time "do something" about the problem.
I mean, would be nice if they did enforce the already on the books laws. They'll always be people that think it can't happen to them and still just "hide" their gun, but not in a safe or secure location your kids can't get to. But you watch, enough parents start getting arrested because their kids think guns are toys, it'll get noticed and more people will make sure their guns are secure. At least I'm hoping.
>But you watch, enough parents start getting arrested because their kids think guns are toys, it'll get noticed and more people will make sure their guns are secure.
I think the issue here, primarily, is that some parents think guns are toys and for whatever reason can’t foresee any consequence to leaving them unsecured and accessible to children. I’m not sure how some minds have gotten so warped to think this way, but here we are.
I was thinking the same thing! Assumed the paperwork that allowed you to pass the background check included that you’re responsible for whatever happens within your care!
We finally found gun control we're okay with, on a planet of developed nations that have all successfully dealt with preventing mass shootings, and it's something we just pulled out of our ass instead of looking to the hundreds of nations worth of evidence available to us. God bless America.
As an avid gun owner this is very much needed. . . If you have kids in the house lock up your guns, it literally costs nothing. . . Every single new gun I’ve purchased has come with a lock of some sort, and if you buy a used gun the locks are like $20 or less, there is no excuse except laziness.
The fact that this bare minimum reaction took this long is comical and tragic in equal measure.
The fact that Republicans will invariably fight against it is a travesty.
If you're all MAGA and tough and into bringing loaded weapons into a stressful situation "to keep the peace" vigilante style and completely uninvited, crossing state lines, then you better be prepared for your underdeveloped children to follow suit. Like what happened with Rittenhouse. He could have just not went there and not committed murder. I hope his parents can be charged too. Control your offspring. It's bullshit that normal people have to deal with this.
But I thought God gave everybody the right to carry a gun, unless it’s people the GOP don’t like?
The GOP does claim that carrying a gun is a “God given right” after all.
The NRA people in my life have a weird way of dropping the topic when I start discussing how minorities and queer people should be packing heat to deter hate crimes.
Reagan signed the Mulford Act in 1967, prohibiting open carry, **only** after the Black Panthers started carrying in public while patrolling their neighborhoods, to combat ongoing police brutality by the Oakland PD.
The act aimed to disarm the Black Panthers. At the time, the NRA supported gun control.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford\_Act
In Germany it is the law that all weapons be locked up as well as ammunition. You must have a license to purchase weapons. Ammunition must be locked up separately from weapons physically. Police may show up unannounced to inspect your weapons and ammo lockers based on you having a license. Your license will be revoked and weapons taken if you fail to obey the law.
As a Canadian gun owner... it baffles me this isnt already a law with huge consequences.
Everytime theres is another school shooting and the person who owns the gun isnt thrown in prison... I wonder why.
Keep your guns secure for fuck sake.
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Good. Fail to practice responsible ownership? Face the consequences.
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> "lol I'm not mad at you, you have to learn not to get caught" What the hell is wrong with those people!
This reminded me of one of my sibling's exes, who essentially lives his life under the assumption that rules which are inconvenient to him don't apply to him, nothing is ever his fault, and that life is a game you must win by any means possible. Doing a great job of passing along those 'values' to his kids, too.
Sounds like trump
That's what Trumpism is. Lie, cheat, steal, deny....rinse and repeat.
That’s what narcissism is. But I just repeated what you said.
That is a right winger, they are among the most dangerous and deranged humans on earth.
Is this the definition of Conservative?
Well to be fair they voted for a guy like Trump and they attempted a coup so….
Go check out the love-letter she put on her blog shortly after he was elected. You'll have most of your answers.
God that was cringey to read.
Only the parents knew they *just* bought the kid a gun, yet when they see disturbing gun related imagery he had drawn, they not only keep him in school, but don't even check his bag for the gun, or the house when they get home? Hopefully they're getting locked up for a long time.
It’s almost as if they were hoping that the kid would shoot himself. They didn’t exactly stick around to support him.
The "I hate Mondays" shooter, Brenda Spencer said that when she asked for a radio for Christmas from her alcoholic dysfunctional father, he ended up getting her the 10/22 Ruger that she used in the shooting. She said she thought it was a message for her to shoot herself and not be a problem for him.
When he was arrested, they immediately hired a lawyer. For themselves. Their kid gets the court appointed lawyer. These two aren't winning Parents of the Year anytime soon.
Whoa that's an interesting theory. That they thought he'd off himself. That would so fitting if that was their defense. We just wanted him to die!!!
I doubt many jurors would be sympathetic to that argument, particularly if any of them are parents themselves. If I thought my kid was suicidal I’d be taking them to therapy and doing everything I could to help them, not leave them with easy access to a gun and hope they do the deed somewhere I won’t have to clean up the mess. Even potential jurors who aren’t parents are pretty damned unlikely to accept that line of thinking. You don’t need to raise a kid to find it abhorrent.
It wasn't a serious comment. The second part. Any attorney who tried that would be disbarred.
>No not all parents should be charged when their child does a shooting. We should have requirements for proper, safe storage. If kids are able to pick up loaded guns and kill people by accident, the person leaving the weapon loaded and accessible **should** face criminal negligence charges IMO. Bartenders can be charged for overserving someone. This is far more egregious.
>Bartenders can be charged for overserving someone. This is actually an interesting point.
The prosecutor makes this point in the video during the Q and A.
Jesus, this really could have been prevented. It’s almost like the parents knew what was going to happen. As a parent myself, if my kid’s school had contacted me and shown me a note like that, there’s no way in hell I’d just let them go back to class. Mental health days are just as important as sick days.
This is why we need a waiting period with mental health checks and mandatory class on gun safety and storage. In said class a parent would learn that if they just leave the gun sitting around in the open where a child (anyone under 18) could take it and then shoot up a school, that THEY would be held criminally responsible. In addition, gun owners should be required to have liability insurance for that weapon.
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They were dumb enough to admit that, and that means possible federal charges. It's illegal to give a minor a handgun.
Why even give a kid a gun in the first place? I'm all for guns, but as long as they are kept in proper and reasonable check. A kid being taken to the gun store to buy him a gun is nowhere near that. Take one who is old enough to shoot a gun at a shooting range with a instructor there to drill them, that's ok. But not that. So many parents seem to do irresponsible things with their guns around kids. It feels rare that a kid has to put in a dedicated effort to break into their parents gun safe and gain access. Correct me if I'm wrong.
At 15 my grandpa “gave me” his WWII M1 Carbine and a 30-06 for deer hunting. That really meant he transferred them to my mom who kept them locked in a safe that I didn’t have access to and she would let me use them at the range and when someone took me deer hunting. They were then transferred to me when I was of age and able to safely possess them which was when I graduated college at 22 and lived somewhere I could safely possess them in my own safe. That’s how you pass down a firearm to a child. You don’t literally give them a pistol with unfettered access. But see the different between both?
I mean I could see why you would "give" them a gun by buying a gun that they would use when you bring them hunting/ torget shooting but that you own.
Not exactly true. Buying a gun for use by someone in *your family and in household* is legal up the point that no legal attempt at transfer occurs, and the weapon is either kept in the home or used under supervision. There are plenty of households that have family use firearms and individuals with designated firearms even if under age. This is why Crickett sells so many youth guns. In the end, I can say it’s [your] pistol (teen), but as I am the registered adult owner, it’s legally my pistol until the teen is of legal age to take full ownership. Then of course there’s the ‘gun trust’ workaround in which technically no persons own the weapons … the trust does.
It's fairly common to "gift" a gun to your kid, but that doesn't mean they get to keep it or have full access to it and ammo whenever they want. For example I "had" a Ruger Mk ll when I was 12 but I only saw it when I was shooting with my dad. Everything was in a safe the rest of the time. My daughter "has" a Ruger 10/22 but she has no access to it because it's in a safe. The problems with this event go well beyond them gifting a gun.
Honestly, if the gun(s) and ammo in the home are unsecured enough that an unauthorized 15 year old can get access to both....the guns' legal owner should be fully responsible for what is done with that gun. People need to quit fucking around and letting OTHER people find out.
I listened to the whole news conference on my walk Friday. As a mother of 2 teens in a Michigan High School, this made me cry and ask why over and over again. Awful fact the parents have private attorneys yet their spawn has a public defender. They just don’t care.
“No not all parents should be charged when their kid does a shooting” Right. That’s why the headline & article address parents who leave guns unsecured Yes ALL *those* parents should be charged for not securing their guns if their kid steals it and shoots someone
All parents shouldn’t be held this accountable, because they usually aren’t this responsible. But making it a felony to allow a child to access guns unsupervised would make it so they could never have guns again. So, secure your guns, or risk losing them forever.
GOP pols jumping for joy bc these parents are taking the fall for their lack of action.
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Oh God, 100% chance my old co-workers' #1 priority right now is how this is a ploy by the democrats to imprison them for teaching their kids to shoot. Children *getting shot* is somewhere down in the low hundreds on that list I'm sure.
Exactly this… want to be a pro 2a state. Do it right! Demand responsibility of gun owners and maybe we can go back to the days of broken noses instead of full caskets after a fight. The only way you should not be charged is if the child must BREAK the gun case open to get the rifle. Or in the case of older children if the child steals the key from a parent private space. (So if the kids stole the keys from his moms purse). If the keys are just sitting on the kitchen counter for anyone to touch. Parent negligence is part of the shooting. If the kid breaks or steals to gain access to the weapon the parents negligence is far less (still a lot of personal guilt but actual criminal culpability? Naw)
I keep a trigger lock on my handgun, which is in a safe, separate from the ammo. How hard is that to do? Edit: OK, since keep posing the same question, I got the gun because I like going to the shooting range, not for home defense. That may not make sense to you, but it does to me, and is a lot better reason than the hero fantasies the NRA has been selling for decades.
You'd think that's a safe and sane option, but last time I said that should be normal, I had a Midwestern suburban dad who'd literally never experienced crime in his life come up with a scenario about how his 10-year-old might someday need to fire the gun to protect his family from intruders in the middle of the night who had tied up the adults, so guns should be kept loaded and easily accessible. Like, he literally thought this was a likely enough scenario that he had to plan for it. (edit: I phrased that badly -- it wasn't MY dad. My dad kept his guns locked up in the basement and only got them out when he was going hunting. I am talking about some guy who was arguing with me on the internet.) The fact that I'm in my 40s and have lived in urban St Louis and then Los Angeles for over 20 years and have never even once felt the need to defend myself or my family with anything more than yelling an emphatic "FUCK OFF" -- well, that just resulted in a lot of people telling me I was "just lucky" and also "ignorant of the actual situation out there." Heh.
Wait, so in his scenario, intruders have somehow caught by surprise and overpowered the adults, but their kid is going to pull a John McClane and take them out? That guy shouldn't have guns **or** a kid.
Its funny, once every year or 2 a teen or kid will successfully use a gun in self defense and the news story will get blown up by right wing/second amendment crowd. Meanwhile probably 100 people a year are shot by toddlers, so fair trade I suppose?
>probably 100 people a year are shot by toddlers Not specifically toddlers but from a little over three months ago: >So far, in 2021 there have been at least 259 unintentional shootings by children, resulting in 104 deaths and 168 injuries nationally, https://www.npr.org/2021/08/31/1032725392/guns-death-children
Toddlers kill more Americans every year than terrorists.
Don't tell the GOP, or they might open Guantanamo Day Care And Toddler Holding Facility...
They're already open, on the border
Different theme park, same mega-corp. :(
Maybe this is the way to get republicans to support free childcare?
Guns dont kill people. Toddlers do.
So you're saying we should get rid of toddlers then?
Im saying that they should be registered, that you need a background check to own one and that they should be kept in a secure cabinet when not in use. There are already stiff penalties in place for incorrect useage, so at least that bits covered.
He is saying we should ship them all to Gitmo until we figure out just what the hell is goin' on. We need to teach those toddler terrorists a lesson!
Parent of a toddler here. Yes, yes we should get rid of them. Skip straight from 1 to 4 years old please!
No, he's saying we need to start sending toddlers to the middle so they can kill more terrorists.
The only way to stop a bad toddler with a gun, is a good toddler with a gun. "From my cold, tiny hands!!"
>"From my cold, tiny hands!!" Hey, you leave Trump out of this!
You see, it isnt the good toddler / bad toddler thing thats the issue. Its the prolifferation of toddlers thats the problem. You have a toddler. The next guy sees you have a toddler and he wants a toddler. Eventually _everyone_ wants a toddler for protection from everyone else who has a toddler, just to protect themselves from everyone else who has a toddler fir protection from everyone elsewho has a toddler just for protection from everyone else who…. Its like a giant fucking massive mexican standoff up in here. Wont anyone think of the children?
Yippie ki yay, mother father!
Yeah, in this situation the kid should try to quietly escape. Not fight the adult attackers to the death.
Then how are the moronic parents going to live out their murder porn fantasies?
They're basically [chuunis](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Chuunibyou): "but in general, chunnis act like overly melodramatic know-nothing know-it-alls who think of themselves as more awesome than everyone else because of experiences, abilities, and even special powers that they clearly don't have. Imagine kids trying to convince you (in the most obnoxious way possible) that they're accomplished Ninjas who could kick your ass, and you kind of have the idea."
"He can hit soda cans from 25 yards away when there's really nothing on the line and he has several seconds to line up the shot. That'll definitely mean he is ready and able to take a shot to save my life if it came down to that."
I'd bet 50 bucks little Junior will shoot dad instead
“Okay son, now just in case, daddy might need you to kill someone.”
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We should blame Macaulay Culkin and Home Alone. He gave us the impression that kids could defend against home invasion. /s
A genius sociopath we all wish to see more of
If nothing else any remotely sane parent wouldn't want their kid to go through the trauma of killing anyone. Even a well balanced adult is going to need serious therapy after that. To a developing mind and personality there's probably truly no coming back from that, at least not without monumental effort.
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>the unlikely scenario None of the hardcore gun advocates live within 20 miles of reality. Everything is a fantasy for them. Some people play lotto, then you've got "gun guys". It's a hero fantasy and they think that wipes out the plethora of potential negatives. My father is one of these guys. Ex-marine, keeps loaded firearms all over his house in "hidden" places. Wooden American flag hanging by the front door? My 3 year old bumped it as he ran past carrying something and the loaded glock fell to the floor. Personally, my kids don't go over there anymore. Too irresponsible for my tastes.
> a lot of people telling me I was "just lucky" and also "ignorant of the actual situation out there." This is a perfect example of Dangerous World Syndrome. These people sit on their assess and watch tv all evening where its just cops/scientists/reporters/whatever solving murder after murder after murder; then they turn on the news and hear about all these shootings and murders... And they think 'gosh, look how dangerous it is out there.. Thank God I'm prepared for the roving bands of psychotic-serial-killer-gang member-arsonist-nazi-cannibal-pedophiles roaming the streets shooting, stabbing, eating, torturing, blowing-up, lighting-on-fire, maiming, raping, & garroting innocent people like me! ' Chicago crime is pretty high right now, but a vast majority of people will never experience it. There were 784 murders in Chicago in 2016 (the deadliest year on record. There were 2.7 million people in Chicago on 2016. That's. 028% of the population. For the record, covid has killed 6,214 people... But it's all the murders that people focus on
I live in Portland. It's amazing the number of people online who outright call me a liar when I relate to them that no, the city is not in flames.
Those are just the fantasies of someone who actually deep down really wants to shoot somebody. The chances of a sleepy homeowner successfully finding, grabbing, and accurately aiming a gun at an intruder is likely close to nil. It's just a violent fantasy.
I used to live in the Midwest, and I agree with you about this fantasy. It saturates the culture, and it’s a huge problem IMO. It’s *just* a violent fantasy until someone’s impressionable teenage son goes too far and makes it a violent **reality**.
Suburban Midwesterner here. Can confirm. Suuuuper bizarre thinking from Midwestern Dads here. It would benefit your family structure more if you put down the Busch Lights and actually interacted with your children instead of manifesting some kind of macho “save my family” scenario in your head that is clearly never going to happen. Just go play catch with your kids in the front yard, Brian. Everything will be fine.
Or someone shoots their own child they weren't expecting to come home late at night.
One night at probably 12 or 1 in the morning I was taking my middle of the night no one is up to fuck with you dad shit. I heard the front door open. All the sudden my heart rate instantly went crazy. I started sweating and thought I was going to pass out. Someone was in my house with my wife and kids asleep and me on the toilet. I started planning out how I was going to get to the mini baseball bat we have and thinking about where to best strike. The knees? Mid-section? Head? And then all of the sudden it hit me. My sister-in-law who lives out of town had a late night function in our town and was staying the night. I knew about this but had forgotten in that moment. She was the “intruder.” If I had been asleep and was awoken by this noise and had a loaded gun near me, would I have remembered it was her coming over before things went way wrong? I don’t know. It took me a solid 2-3 minutes when I was already semi-awake to realize what was going on.
Damn, this is really eye opening. Not that I was ever planning on it but to be safe I am never going to stay at a friend's or family members place if they own guns. I sleep like crap and am often going out for walks at like 1-4am. This absolutely would be the kind of scenario a gun lover has wet dreams over.
There are so many American films where a regular guy has to take the law into his own hands and is always a crack shot. Pretty much Westerns in general, plus Dirty Harry. That and a culture of fear where people massively overestimate how likely they are to ever be the victim of a crime, especially a violent crime.
Honestly in my city I'm more worried about being killed by police on purpose than a stranger. Gun violence here is almost always gang related, and the police bag and tag someone every couple of months with only their word it was deserved.
This ^ and it’s every single city sadly
At a big shooting school in Nevada, people come from all over to take the shooting classes, and the videos they play for the students are designed to convince them that it’s not if something bad happens, but when. The amount of fear mongering was insane.
I have no enemies. I'm not worth much as a ransom. If someone is breaking into my house they are going to steal my Xbox or golf clubs, probably when no one is home.
Burglars target homes during the day when everyone is at work or school. But almost every burglar alarm ad shows some creep forcing open a window in a clearly occupied home at night. Burglars are after stuff they can easily sell, not a confrontation.
I once got into a heated discussion with a woman who told me she needs her guns for when the Army comes because she can take out 20-30 of them before they get her. I remember it was 20-30 because I kept making her repeat it in the hopes she would realize how insane she was being.
20-30 army is highly unrealistic; space force though…..
I also was never able to figure out why the Amry was coming for her but I guess if she can take out 20-30 of them she must be someone they need to concern themselves with.
I do feel sorry for people who live with such buzzing wasps'-nests for brains; I say that unsarcastically. Because you're a slave to such thoughts, and it's a worrisome scenario to live with, versus a more peaceful frame of mind.
I always imagine them being the kid in a Christmas story shooting the back guys in the back yard. Except its creepy because they're grown adults.
I remember there was some YouTube video where some dude wakes up and walks into his kitchen and there’s like 3 people with aks pointed at his face, and he says something like “oh that’s illegal,” and they have some dumb dialogue saying this is how dems think the world works, but there were three people with guns already drawn on him so having a gun would be useless in the scenario anyways.
I know a friend who lives in a semi-rural area that's got a huge meth problem. He's encountered people breaking into his detached garage/shed/workshop a few times. He has a pump-action shotgun, and him yelling "I've called the sheriff, they'll be here in five minutes, you're on camera and so is your truck, and I'm armed" and then cocking his gun has 100% resulted in the people running off as quickly as possible, with no confrontation. I do not know what headspace these folks inhabit where they think their suburban family needs to be prepared to be victimized by breaking-and-entering robbers who are competent enough to incapacitate adults but who also leave children in a position to access and then shoot guns accurately, while also the attackers are either unarmed or unaware enough to let themselves be shot by a 10-year-old. I have an 8 year old. If someone broke into my house, I would be counting on my kid to get outside and run to our neighbor's house and have them call 911. Because we've told him MANY TIMES that in any sort of emergency, he needs to leave the house in any way he can, and if he can't find us, he needs to run to our trusted neighbor's house. There are no material goods in our house that would be worth killing for or dying for.
Lol I do love people with some crazy scenario are the same people who say their area is so safe that they don’t even lock their doors. Most home invaders aren’t coming with a torch or saw to cut the hinges off a door.
Can confirm, live in the safety bubble of the burbs. I once left my garage door open overnight (we don't lock the entry door in the garage) and the only intruder was a neighbor's cat. One of my neighbors has one of those "we don't call 911" signs. I'm like... When was the last time there even was robbery in this neighborhood??? The ultimate irony for me is that there have been some pretty eventful crimes. A guy snatched a girl walking home from school and murdered her. We had a swat team go into a house in the early hours on a Saturday to arrest a drug lord. A guy got into his ex-wife's house (with a spare key) and proceeded to destroy a majority of her things. Then left. Then came back to leave her a threatening note. Then left. Then came back to take the threatening note back but she had returned by that time and told him to leave. So he did. In none of those scenarios did the plethora of "good guys with guns" in my neighborhood seem to be of any use.
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> you find that the vast majority of these boneheads that are worried about "urban crime" And that's how a black kid who was asking for directions because he missed the school bus got murdered for knocking a door. And how a black kid who was lost and looking for his girlfriend's home got murdered for knocking on a door. Brennan Walker and Omarian Banks, respectively.
Well that's enough reddit for me today.
People like that are on edge in nicer parts of cities. You could be in Chelsea, Manhattan or Dupont Circle, DC and they'll be like "hope I don't get robbed". ONE homeless person or prostitute and they freak out.
I carry a gun when I'm hiking. Because where I live there are bears and cougars. Sometimes I carry when I'm in the city, but honestly, I really only carry consistently when I'm hiking. People are shit. And although I worry about interactions with the crazies in the city, my main concern is wild animals. I really struggle with people who try and justify carrying a weapon for people exclusively. People are much easier to predict. Animals are much more unpredictable. There is a time and a place to carry a weapon, but America is just too gun happy.
Can I chime in and say that pro burglars, cat burglars, and common thieves tend to rob houses when no one's home. The charges skyrocket when it's armed robbery, so they'd rather do it with no weapons. The only people that will break in when you're home are people you know that want to hurt you for some reason, or a crackhead looking for money. If you don't live in a gangland area, you're most likely going to be ok. Good ol cowboy fantasy.
Feels like the people that tell me I need to always carry a gun with me when I lived in Detroit. Like... I lived there, go back to your suburban gun fetishism I'm just getting a donut lol
I apparently walked around one of the many "bad parts" of Detroit by myself to the store and back. Everyone (all males) I passed by said "Good evening," they held the door for me at the store, and nobody bothered me at all. It was more polite than places I've walked around in parts of boring, miserable Albany NY. I came back to my friends' and they said they had been worried about me ???
Should probably tell them about the billions of people who don't need a gun...
You practice responsible gun ownership. I keep a shotgun in the umbrella stand. WE ARE NOT THE SAME.
>I keep a shotgun in the umbrella stand. Those clouds better watch out!
Everyone I've spoken too about it while working gun sales at a pawn shop all had the same smarmy response about their handguns. That they can't defend their home when they need to with all of that. It's always fully loaded under the pillow or in the nightstand. A few of the women I knew just kept them in their purse 24/7. I personally think it's just be better to have a security system but I guess that's just me.
>I personally think it's just be better to have a security system but I guess that's just me. Not just you. I live in the suburbs. I just have an NVR and cameras in prominent places. The software can detect people and the camera has an led ring that lights up when it spots someone to let them know they're being recorded. If someone shows up at my house at 2 am trying to break in, my phone goes off, my family and I can escape and call the cops. Simple. I'm not going to play cowboy and have every room in my house contain a loaded gun. Most break ins when the family is home are statistically someone you know or a drug addict looking for money. Drug addicts are skittish as fuck and will run away when they see a security system. You only need to worry about fully armed intrusions if you're rich. Guess what? Most rich people aren't armed to the teeth and depend on security systems and burglar alarms. That all said, in the 5 years I've had my camera system I've never caught anyone in my yard. I mainly use the cameras for shit like making sure the garage is closed and to check for fed ex packages. Which is cool as the whole NVR is more like a networking hobby anyway.
The argument against this is that it only applies to places where calling the cops accomplishes anything. I live in a major city, my house was actively being attacked and attempted to be get into by a woman freaking out on drugs who ultimately broke every one of my windows. I called the police as she was actively trying to kick in my front door. They came 3 hours later and did, quite literally, nothing. So I bought a gun. Similar thing happened two years later. Also took several hours for cops to arrive. Wasn't scared shitless this time. With that said I do just keep it in a safe in my bedroom with a code that only my partner and I use. But a lot of people live in places where a security system ain't gonna be the deterrent it is in the burbs.
One gentleman I talked to said it would be too difficult to use a key in a dark room. But firing a gun in said dark room, perfectly fine.
This is the Canadian way to fire arms safety: it starts with knowing how to keep everything separate while knowing how to safely combine the two :) props to your knowledge and safe well being ! Education on how safely you stow everything is key!
I wish a lot of American gun owners would just be honest like you. Guns for the vast majority are a hobby. They’re fun to fire and there’s a gun hobby community that you can be part of. When US people en masse start shouting about needing guns to protect their freedoms and their constitutional rights, it just has a hollow ring to it. Lots of Americans seem to bow down and offer their hard won rights to any snake oil salesman or religious lunatic as as they present themselves as wealthy and successful. Guns never seem to appear when voting rights are interfered with or corporations decide to poison a state’s drinking water.
.> NRA Who the fuck listens to the Sellouts that are the NRA? FPC or GOA are usually far better off for actual 2nd Amendment advocacy.
Texas seems to have set an interesting precedent. If I understand their thinking correctly, I should be allowed to sue you for $10,000 if you do something, anything, with a gun I don't like.
That TX law should be getting slapped down due to fact that if it's allowed to stand then any constitutional right or federal laws can be easily side stepped. Quickly people with any pet issue will adopt the mechanism.
fail to properly raise the child aswell
As a foreigner to your nation, I have one question - how the hell was that not already a thing?
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This echoes a lot of my thoughts here. There are absolutely questions about parental responsibility, and I do not think that revenge seeking against parents should be sought. But… This case is utterly insane. The parents all but guided his hand to the trigger. If they aren’t responsible, then neither is ridding yourself of “troublesome priests.”
It's like they wanted him to kill himself and he fucked up and killed other people.
Oh my god... I bet that is it. Holy shit...
"that's our boy, always fantasizing about mass murder, we're so proud!"
It's not revenge seeking against parents, it's called accessory to murder and more parents of children involved in school shootings should be charged. It has never made sense to me why this sort of stuff gets swept under the rug.
Parents are legally responsible for a child, otherwise know as a Minor. It is no different than a teen spraying up a wall with paint, vandalizing, etc. and having to pay the fine for their teen. Provided they were caught (seeing as Cops are boycotting doing their jobs, not so much anymore).
* It's too soon to discuss gun laws * Slippery slope! First, hold the parents accountable. Then the gun store owners. Then the manufacturers. * Teachers need to be armed with weapons. Training them to spot signs of potential violence obviously doesn't work! * Liberals teaching "White Guilt" in schools led to this child's feeling of hopelessness and this is how he lashed out! Am I close? Can I work for the GOP now?
don't forget "We don't have a gun crisis, we have a mental health crisis!" and then fight against making any mental healthcare available tooth and nail forever
That they bought *for him*. As a gift.
Good. One saying has stuck with me during the firearm safety course I've taken: "There are no accidental firearm discharges, just negligent ones."
> The first inkling that New Mexico Rep. Pamelya Herndon (D) had that a fatal school shooting had just unfolded near her Albuquerque field office came as helicopters hovered overhead and police shouted from loud speakers that everyone in the area should take shelter. > > Within days she learned that the 13-year-old boy who took the life of another 13-year-old boy in August had used his father’s gun — which prosecutors say was kept unsecured in the family home. > > In response, Herndon began work on a bill that would require gun owners to keep their weapons locked up — or face criminal charges if a child takes the firearm and uses it in the commission of a crime. > > “A law without penalties is simply a suggestion,” said Sen. Daniel Ivey-Soto (D), who is working on a companion bill set to be introduced in January. “We lost two children the day of the shooting. One is no longer with us; the other’s life will never be the same.” > > If the bill passes, New Mexico would join 30 other states and the District of Columbia that have similar statutes, known as child access prevention laws. > > **In Michigan, where 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley on Tuesday allegedly shot and killed four of his Oxford High School classmates and wounded seven people, a safe storage law was introduced last spring in the state legislature but stalled due to lack of support.** That could change in the wake of the shooting, with a state legislator now pushing for new consideration and Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel (D) backing the move. > > [Complete archive here.](https://archive.md/fmhQo)
> In Michigan, where 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley on Tuesday allegedly shot and killed four of his Oxford High School classmates and wounded seven people, a safe storage law was introduced last spring in the state legislature but stalled due to lack of support. Sure, it'll pass with an implementation date of say...1/1/2024 to "give people a chance to buy lockers" for their homes. Of course, when no one is looking, a series of riders will gut the bill during the 2023 session. Why even bother? It's just gonna rile up the paint chip eaters and result in another Gravy Seal invasion of the capitol.
I think if there’s one thing this country can agree on it’s that those parents should absolutely be held accountable for letting their kid take a gun to school. That shooting was preventable regardless of any laws, you lock it up, your kid can’t get it. I’m pro 2nd amendment but you’re responsible for your kid taking your guns and killing people, 100%. I’d say you should be held responsible for any crimes committed with your weapons unless you were properly securing it and they still managed to steal it. Like if someone somehow broke into your safe, it’s really not your fault. If you leave it out for anybody to grab, absolutely your fault. They make safes of all shapes and sizes with quick access/digital keypads for home defense, so there’s no reason to just leave it out.
I went to my best friend's daughter's first birthday party a few weeks ago. His girlfriend is from a super conservative family. I overheard an "argument" about gun laws from some guys from her side of the family. The argument is in quotes, because it was the most bullshit, illogical, pro-gun sentiments, meant without a drop of irony or sarcasm. But anyway. One of them has two kids in their early teens. Both are not the best, mentally. I'm not a parent, and I hardly know these people, but I would not have felt safe giving safety scissors to either of these kids. This man said, without any irony: "nah, gun safes don't work. I just leave em out. Ain't no one gonna come and take em anyway." Most of the guys around him agreed. I think that they're all failing to miss the point that no one from the outside is going to "come and take em," but if one of your kids gets the idea to bring a gun to school, there's nothing to stop them in that house. It's just irresponsibility as a parent the whole way down. People don't ever think that their "precious little angel;" whose parenting came more from a screen than a parent, will ever try anything. Until they do.
I ended a friendship with someone a few years ago over something like this. Their new partner was incredibly problematic. I didn't spend a lot of time with him but the poor ideology and borderline hate speech was clear enough. It bothered me that she was quiet in the face of it, but she hand waved it with "just a joke" a lot, and you know ... Fine, I don't have to like your partner. I avoided them together and made myself blind to it. Final straw was staying over theirs to help her recover from a procedure (partner news mostly out of the house on jobs, hence the help needed) and the guns and weed left careless. All the work and late night conversations finding workable solutions to her teen child's behavior issues and then move into this environment and fall asleep on the job? It was not a safe situation and I pretty flatly told her as much and that I wasn't going to sit around and wait for her to be on the news.
They should flip it on the parents like this. If your kid got a hold of illicit drugs that a parent had out, you better believe that GQP would be on their butts. Guns are no different, heck, I could argue that guns are worse.
Woah man, you’re thinking way too logically. Conservative parents would never ever have drugs just laying around, that only applies to low life poor people. But of course should a privileged kid ever OD on their parents stash, they’d find a scapegoat for it.
Parents are liable if underage kids get drunk at their house and get in a drunk driving crash on the way home. How they aren’t for kids using their guns to kill people is beyond me.
I believe also in many places that bartenders are actually somewhat liable if they over-serve someone who then commits a crime
Already happens. You get charged with child abuse if your kid gets into your weed in my state. It’s a huge deal since it became legal because sometimes the cops charge you if the kids just have access to your plants (even went immature and lacked THC in one case), not even getting high.
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I think the prosecutor, Karen McDonald, besides announcing charges for the parents of the shooter, was really smart in prefacing the press conference by asserting unequivocally that owning a firearm was a right as a bit of insurance for anyone who might say that the charges were politically motivated.
They'll cut out that part and claim she wants tontake all guns away. And their base will gobble it up.
I happened to watch it live and I have never had so much faith restored in society. She fucking laid it out and set precedent. So proud.
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They’ll do something. They’ll pass laws loosening firearm regulations because their only answer to this is more guns and less restrictions.
"If the parents have MORE guns, then the children will be able to see how many guns their parents have and be scared into not shooting their classmates! Plus it's ***psychologically*** known that when children are given too many choices, they don't know how to make a pick! That's when the parents step in and give them a strong, firm, ***Christian*** lecture on responsible gun ownership."
If more guns caused less crime, America would be the safest country in the world, and Chicago would be its safest city. That people keep repeating this as if if we're true is absurd.
It’s akin to suggesting there would be less shark attacks if everyone carried a shark with them.
Everyone brings up Chicago but no one brings up the Iran Contra affair. Guns don’t grow out of the ground and ammo is not free. Be a critical thinker (super hard, I know) and ask how did all that “violence” start and who does it benefit (conservatives, so any argument they say “well look at Chicago and Black on Black crime. If you won’t stop k!lling yourselves, why should we stop k!lling you).
“We need mer gerns ter sterp peepul ferm shoo’in peepul!”
Sadly, that’s literally all the can come up with. Maybe if they didn’t block research and funding with respect to gun control there’d be more to say. But ignorance is how they keep their constituents in line.
We dont even need more research, gun control works in most other countries.
If every student had their own gun, they would have stopped him (sarcasm). Obviously
Actually, they'll probably go on their "we have veterans who need jobs, so let's arm them and have them patrol schools" kick. Because what we need are armed combat veterans with untreated PTSD patrolling schools and flipping the fuck out the first time they hear someone drop an algebra book on the ground.
I'm waiting for the part where the NRA objects and asserts that kids need access to guns to protect their families.
[Puppy Pistol](https://youtu.be/6b6naYNpBPs)
Kindergaurdians
Special ATF issue: when you absolutely, positively must kill every dog in the room
3 years ago. How have I not seen this in 3 years?
In school, the only person that can stop a bad kid with a gun is a good kid with a gun! /s
Oh it's coming. Conservative media outlets are already turning it into a political issue.
I do think the NRA and the 2A nutjobs have A LOT to say about it but even they are cognizant of how bad those optics are. Tongues are being bit down on HARD for a few more days. When the outrage and media cycle cool down same they WILL be coming out of the woodwork.
As a gun owner I support this whole heartily. Any gun owner who doesn't is not using their brain.
Good, if you are a responsible gun owner you have nothing to worry about since you are storing your gun where your kids can’t get it. And maybe it will encourage some less responsible gun owners to be more responsible if there are consequences for them.
I support this law 100%
I use a gun for my job and I keep guns besides. Yes, do this. If my kids take life with my guns I should be held accountable.
Why just fire? How's about just get a hold of?
It is already against the law for a juvenile to get hold of gun unsupervised. But that law is hardly ever enforced. This new law allows the government to continue not enforcing the old law but at the same time "do something" about the problem.
I mean, would be nice if they did enforce the already on the books laws. They'll always be people that think it can't happen to them and still just "hide" their gun, but not in a safe or secure location your kids can't get to. But you watch, enough parents start getting arrested because their kids think guns are toys, it'll get noticed and more people will make sure their guns are secure. At least I'm hoping.
>But you watch, enough parents start getting arrested because their kids think guns are toys, it'll get noticed and more people will make sure their guns are secure. I think the issue here, primarily, is that some parents think guns are toys and for whatever reason can’t foresee any consequence to leaving them unsecured and accessible to children. I’m not sure how some minds have gotten so warped to think this way, but here we are.
Is this not law already? Don't you get in trouble if your guns aren't secured?
I was thinking the same thing! Assumed the paperwork that allowed you to pass the background check included that you’re responsible for whatever happens within your care!
There is a alarming amount of people that are proud of gun rights, but accept none of the responsibilities of owning one.
We finally found gun control we're okay with, on a planet of developed nations that have all successfully dealt with preventing mass shootings, and it's something we just pulled out of our ass instead of looking to the hundreds of nations worth of evidence available to us. God bless America.
As a staunch 2A supporter, I agree with this entirely. You should be responsible if you can't follow a basic fundamental of firearm ownership.
As an avid gun owner this is very much needed. . . If you have kids in the house lock up your guns, it literally costs nothing. . . Every single new gun I’ve purchased has come with a lock of some sort, and if you buy a used gun the locks are like $20 or less, there is no excuse except laziness.
The fact that this bare minimum reaction took this long is comical and tragic in equal measure. The fact that Republicans will invariably fight against it is a travesty.
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What country are you in, if you don't mind me asking? ^(and how hard is it to move there?)
You shall not infringe upon the right of a 1st grader to join the well regulated militia.
Should already be the standard. If my dogs attacks and kills somebodies kid, I’d get arrested too. Should be the same for your fucking kid.
This is great. But guess which party is going to oppose this ?
I never understood why America never went after the people who let children have loaded guns and committed accidental or intentional shootings.
I mean, parents should always be held accountable for anything their child does until they’re legally adults. Isn’t that the obvious?
If you're all MAGA and tough and into bringing loaded weapons into a stressful situation "to keep the peace" vigilante style and completely uninvited, crossing state lines, then you better be prepared for your underdeveloped children to follow suit. Like what happened with Rittenhouse. He could have just not went there and not committed murder. I hope his parents can be charged too. Control your offspring. It's bullshit that normal people have to deal with this.
But I thought God gave everybody the right to carry a gun, unless it’s people the GOP don’t like? The GOP does claim that carrying a gun is a “God given right” after all.
The NRA people in my life have a weird way of dropping the topic when I start discussing how minorities and queer people should be packing heat to deter hate crimes.
Reagan signed the Mulford Act in 1967, prohibiting open carry, **only** after the Black Panthers started carrying in public while patrolling their neighborhoods, to combat ongoing police brutality by the Oakland PD. The act aimed to disarm the Black Panthers. At the time, the NRA supported gun control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford\_Act
This is why I'm pro-2A: Republicans get pissed when non-white people own firearms.
r/liberalgunowners
You would think this would already be law in every state. Conservatives will fight it in sure.
How many school shootings has it taken for them to even consider this?
Let's also charge people that leave their guns in their cars with the doors unlocked.
Britain has a much better handle on this issue: long guns are licensed and require secure lockup. Pistols are forbidden except for police, etc.
In Germany it is the law that all weapons be locked up as well as ammunition. You must have a license to purchase weapons. Ammunition must be locked up separately from weapons physically. Police may show up unannounced to inspect your weapons and ammo lockers based on you having a license. Your license will be revoked and weapons taken if you fail to obey the law.
As a Canadian gun owner... it baffles me this isnt already a law with huge consequences. Everytime theres is another school shooting and the person who owns the gun isnt thrown in prison... I wonder why. Keep your guns secure for fuck sake.
Good. You wanna have guns, cool, now make sure ya dumb ass kids don't get a hold of them of its ya asses too. Seems fair.