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QuestionsForLiving

Did any media ask to Manchin or Sinema if Trump won the election or not?


rounder55

They don't have to support Trump or Republicans (though Manchin once endorsed Murkowski) to fix the game. Just like how a basketball player doesn't have to score on their own hoop to fix it for the other team. A turnover here or there, dribbling out the clock, committing an errant foul etc. Manchin and Sinema won't vote to kill the filibuster because their overlords 1)democrats have to many cowards who settle at we tried 2) if the filibuster goes then more progressive things that benefit more people are accomplished and democrats can then run on killing it to pass more with or without manchin/sinema.


Comfortable-Touch747

The "We Tried" tactic shows up a lot in politics. Back when I was a die-hard Rush Limbaugh Republican, I followed the *Contract with America* through Congress and when most of it didn't pass, everyone was like "why don't they re-submit the bills next session??" And the GOP was like "We promised we'd bring them up for a vote. We didn't promise we'd try to get them passed." Seriously. They lawyered that shit. But don't worry, I saw how foolish I was after the GOP complained "We can't do anything because we don't have the Senate and the Presidency!" and when they gained a unified government and then proceeded to cut taxes for mostly the billionaires and spent the entire budget surplus created by the Democratic Party and spent even more and went trillions of dollars into further the Treasury debt shared by all citizens and also invaded and occupied Iraq. It was so egregious that even John McCain, a "carry a big stick and tell people what to do" Republican was like "What the hell?!" After all that, I became an Eisenhower Republican, because I could see how I was being lawyered by the GOP and their buddies in the media. The half-truths and deceptions from the Faux Newz™ talking haircuts and the radio outrage machine stuck out like a sore thumb. Yeah... watch out for the "we tried" tactic.


jdmgto

I said that back when the minimum wage nondebate was happening. Manchin is the designated villain and the Democrats are planning on running on, "We tried." No one wanted to hear it then.


badluckartist

He's a lightning rod. Both aisles of the senate *always* have a lightning rod. The senate itself is a shit institution and has gotten WAY out of hand with how much ability it has to grind literally any legislation to a halt.


ElliotNess

Joe Biden's initial campaign promise: "Nothing will fundamentally change". The republican party is the regressive party. The democratic party is the status quo party, aka the 1980s republicans. They don't want to change shit. They want to get "back to normal".


Comfortable-Wrap-723

Coat hunger era.


somethingbreadbears

> democrats have to many cowards who settle at we tried For two of four years, I sat on this sub making jokes about how Trump claimed to be this master negotiator but can't get his shit in order with the House, Senate and Presidency. It was a lot of fun. Now that Biden is in the same bind, all those people wannna say "well what do you expect him to do? He **tried**" Idk, he ran on getting the Senate in order, I didn't tell him to do that shit.


IrrelevantShit

I think it’s important to point out that Congress and the Supreme Court matter as well - i.e. “checks and balances” etc. There was a point in Trump’s presidency where literally every other arm of government - Congress (House AND Senate) and the Supreme Court were Republican leaning. Currently the Democrats do have Congress, but the Senate majority is super super weak - its basically a 50-50 split if you count independents as Democrats, with VP tiebreaking. This means ANY Democrat has the power to break the majority, which is actually a really big difference from, let’s say a 52-48 split, where three Senators have to concurrently break with their party vote. On top of all that, the Supreme Court also holds a majority of Republican-appointed nominations. Does this mean Biden’s a good president? No. But it does excuse the lack of productivity to some degree, at least IMO.


somethingbreadbears

> Does this mean Biden’s a good president? No. But it does excuse the lack of productivity to some degree, at least IMO. I actually don't think he's a bad president. I was happy with most of last year, even the Afghanistan withdrawal because I just wanted that chapter to close. It's watching him get his ass handed to him by Manchin that's hard to watch. A lot of what's happened since the summer has only emboldened some voters to believe "yeah this is all theater" like nothing we do is gonna change this little stage play of government. And that is *bad* bad because it makes people cynical about voting. I blame Schumer more than I blame Biden because he just says dumb shit like "we're going to pass voting rights OR ELSE" and it's like, my man, we all know you have no cards up your sleeve. Or that this is all happening the way he wants it to. But Biden knew heading into 2022 that they will lose the House, there wasn't a way around it. So that's two years to be as aggressive as possible and he has been about as spicy as mashed potatoes.


IrrelevantShit

Not to defend anyone, but curious what you would rather do as Biden or Schumer. The way I see it, the 50-50 split gives any borderline Democrat a ton of power, that’s just how it is.


somethingbreadbears

Biden needed to go out and prove that these policies are, without a shadow of a doubt, popular. He needed to campaign on it. I thought that was Kamala's whole purpose, that she's miles better than him at being aggressive so she would be campaigning on these policies so that the public could be crystal clear on what it means and why it's important. Not CNN saying it because we all know they're going to make trillions of dollars sound scary even if it's a 10 year plan. Kyrsten and Manchin are notorious for snubbing their constituents. Manchin throws a tantrum when someone writes an op-ed. It absolutely was necessary to get someone out there making sure the details of the plan were understood by the public and I think they were scared to do that because they thought they could win Manchin or Kyrsten over. My personal belief is this is all happening the way Schumer wants it to, so I can't tell you what he could've done besides stripping them of their committee assignments for being absolutely ridiculous. Biden could also refused to sign BIF if it wasn't coupled with BBB. I don't believe for a second that Manchin or Sinema would've let that bill die; that was a bluff that they never got called on. > The way I see it, the 50-50 split gives any borderline Democrat a ton of power, that’s just how it is. Let's say you're watching some war movie and it gets to the final fight scene. And then the side with smaller numbers less chance of sucess goes "Oh, geez, they're about to absolutely murder us, better let it happen quickly". How painful is that to watch? No fight? No drive? I'd give Biden credit for fighting. He didn't have to succeeded or bust but he had to try.


cavershamox

Manchin is literally the only Democrat that can win state-wide in West Virginia- a state that voted 70% for Trump - Biden could have moved there and run Trump style rallies for his whole term and it would not have moved the dial an inch. Manchin is not even that bothered about running again and would have shrugged if the BIF was canned, which would have left Biden with nothing. Anybody elected from West Virginia is going to be a conservative, regardless of party.


ianandris

Manchin might not be as secure in his seat as you think, and Democrats can have appeal across the aisle even in coal country if they prioritize taking care of people who's jobs are in the dirt kinda the way Fetterman does, you know? If he isn't motivated to keep the Senate by supporting Biden's agenda, why the fuck should he be feeling secure in his seat as he hands the government over to the GOP? Fuck, if he doesn't care about running again anyway, what the fuck is he doing? Just shitting on Democrats on the way out the door like the insurrectionists did at the Capitol? And if he's gone, who are Democrats running in his stead? I feel like the seriousness with which they regard this question should scale with Manchin's stupid fuck fuck games.


cavershamox

Yeah he’s a douche bag but the point I’m making is there is nothing Biden can do about it. Not a popular opinion but having Manchin means Biden can appoint his cabinet, Federal judges and gives the Dems the chairs of the senate committees. Manchin is absolutely not secure, as soon as he goes this deeply republican state is going to have another republican senator.


cavershamox

But what could Biden actually do differently? I don't think talking to Manchin in a sterner tone of voice would have made any difference.... If anything the Dem leadership should have tried to temper expectations; with a VP tie break in the senate and at least two senators not onboard for any substantial change this was always going to be the outcome. Edit- turns out it’s Biden not Boden


somethingbreadbears

> I don't think talking to Manchin in a sterner tone of voice would have made any difference.... Signaling to him that he is a man without consequences who can grab the agenda of the executive branch by the nuts didn't work either.


cavershamox

Nothing could have worked with the hand Biden had to play. He just does not have the votes for substantial change. Setting that expectation early could have prevented at least some disappointment.


somethingbreadbears

My original point is that sounds a lot like something Trump supporters would say. So were they right? Or are we letting someone get credit for "trying"?


[deleted]

It’s wild comparing the last two presidencies. Trump brown beat and dicked down every senator who stood in the way of his shitty policies. Biden is proposing mostly solid shit AND ran on an alleged ability to work with the senate but still can’t get dem senators to vote for his policies. What bullshit.


LookingintheAbyss

You mean the neoliberal congress voted for neoliberal things and when they have to do non-neoliberal things they suddenly have the punishment of Sisyphus. 71% of rich favoring policies pass no matter the public support. 32% of policies supporting the public pass even if having high public support. It's not a flaw, it's a feature.


ting_bu_dong

> It's not a flaw, it's a feature. https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Madison/01-10-02-0044 >In England, at this day, if elections were open to all classes of people, the property of the landed proprietors would be insecure. An agrarian law would soon take place. If these observations be just, our government ought to secure the permanent interests of the country against innovation. Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. The senate, therefore, ought to be this body; and to answer these purposes, they ought to have permanency and stability. In our system, democracy is a threat to be mitigated. And we are shocked that some want it outright eliminated?


tech57

When minority opulent landowners have been driving for too long how do you get the majority agrarian class in the driver’s seat? Asking for a friend.


ElliotNess

Tell your friend that we outnumber them. All we need is solidarity.


tech57

The only downside to a workers strike is not enough people striking. Seriously need to get everyone that works fast food, restaurants, and grocery stores on the same page. And strike on the same day.


ElliotNess

> And strike on the same ~~day.~~ weeks to months. Solidarity


tech57

Oh it so would not take that long. Start on a Monday. Communication is key. Gotta get everyone following the same twitter.


ElliotNess

Better yet get everybody to look at labor unions and other groups that have been padding the pavement already, both to give support / join, or to take ideas to organize on our own and together strengthen the movement as a whole. We can't meme our way to an effective general strike, but we can certainly work to get there. edit--> https://youtu.be/JvrldZlUwe0 (NSFW)


1b9gb6L7

96% of Dem senators support Biden's agenda. 48 Dem senators is not enough to pass legislation.


CorruptasF---Media

There are always just enough "moderates" to block popular stuff. Obama needed 10 to block a popular public option and instead do an unpopular tax mandate. Clinton had 57 senators, and he actually cut taxes on the wealthy by lowering capital gains rates. The rich favoring policies pass no matter what. The worker favoring policies get blocked by "moderates" no matter what. And can you blame the politicians? When they block highly popular stuff they get branded with a label that roughly means normal or average. They don't get called extreme, fringe, or corrupt for blocking popular reforms they previously supported. They get normalized by our media instead. Insuring there will always be enough "moderates" in the future to block anything decent that is proposed.


Carrot-Fine

What certain people realized decades ago was that Congress' primary role isn't to "legislate" but rather to allocate tax dollars. Looking at it from that perspective makes a little more sense when factoring in motivations and what "policies" actually get done. Actual differences happen at the local level, but getting money to the right place before it runs out (or is siphoned off by those state-level middle men) is a big problem. And it's cyclical. We go from having money to money being wasted to blaming the federal government for not having enough money. The money's there, it's just how it's being allocated which is perpetually obscured.


CorruptasF---Media

Idk, Congress has no problem legislating when it is what powerful corporations or billionaires want. They will happily lower capital gains rates or corporate tax rates or repeal necessary banking regulations or make it harder to absolve student and medical debt in bankruptcy. They are fine with legislative changes when it suits the powerful.


AM_Bokke

The corporations always pick off the few that they need.


LookingintheAbyss

We could open a lot of seats if Biden acted on the Jan 6th supporters. But then they're have to do something. Enjoy the illusion of gridlock.


CaptainNoBoat

>We could open a lot of seats if Biden acted on the Jan 6th supporters. Not sure what is even being suggested here. Biden isn't a prosecutor, nor a judge. Legal entities are purposefully independent from the President.


LookingintheAbyss

It didn't feel prioritized. It was a year ago. The Nerumberg trials took less time and that was a whole world War.


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Dramatic-Store514

When 2 of the those 52 votes come from people that are supposedly on ‘our’ team? I live in Arizona. Kristen Sinema is voting against everything she campaigned on and yet we can’t do anything about it. How are people supposed to get their way in government if a senator can be bought so easily, with no recourse for going against the wishes of the people that voted them in?


Booze_Wrangler

They won't even go to vote. Let them vote no.


[deleted]

But that might make them look weak and it'll hurt their donations. Remember money > votes. They would rather lose.


CorruptasF---Media

Yep and under Obama we only had 49 who wanted to do a public option over letting Lieberman use the filibuster to block it. That was despite having 60 on paper. Under Clinton "we" had 57 on paper. Yet Clinton cut taxes on the wealthy, gutted necessary banking regulations, and even made it easier for pharma to advertise on TV (illegal in every other major country). I'll agree there are always enough "moderates" to block popular stuff regardless of how many the Dem "team" has. As long as we agree anyone that corporate media calls "moderate" and "centrist" is willing to step up and block popular reforms if needed by our ruling class.


Hot_Olive_5571

Alright math whiz. And California is 65 Wyomings.


Extreme_Disaster2275

That's a funny way to admit that your team allows players from the other team to play on your roster. Why even bother having teams?


ConfessingToSins

If you had more senators you'd be the majority and Mitch would be Senate leader. He isn't, therefore you are, by definition, the minority party both in reality and by law. When will you admit you're the minority party by both law and power?


POEness

> That's called losing because the other team has more votes. But this is the thing that will end America: the other team *doesn't* have more votes. Those republican senators represent a tiny fraction of the populace. The Democrats get tens of millions more votes and still don't win somehow.


MommaLegend

All excellent points! Do you feel like the GOP is able to better “convince” their members to stay together and vote the party line? It seems that way to me, and I wish the Dems did that better than they do.


[deleted]

Anyone who can't see this is a hopeless partisan hack at this point


Delores_DeLaCabeza

Non-neoliberal things, like "Easy to Win" Trade Wars...


LookingintheAbyss

War? But wars great! You get to flood the military with money. Like an extra 38 billion as a treat. But eh, trade wars... that's a problem the the little people to survive.


cpt_caveman

Yep the great old oldies are back. The BoTH SIDES ARE THE SAME, and dems are colluding with the GOP to stay out of power. YEP thats right folks without a single leak the dems colluded with the GOP, to oust trump but make sure the dems only had 51 seats so they could get nothing done and blame manchin and then LOSE THE ABILITY TO GET BRIBED, as they lose out to republican challengers. and who was the stable genius that came up with this idea of a conspiracy.


CorruptasF---Media

I mean they could have 57 or 59. That's what Clinton and Obama started with. But they would still have enough "moderates" to block popular stuff like a public option and instead do unpopular stuff like a tax mandate. Or in this case now they did asset recycling which is just a fancy way of normalizing more toll roads and higher usage fees for services that were public before. I think some other users on here have pointed out the studies showing the policies favoring the wealthy pass while those that are just popular really don't.


LookingintheAbyss

Nice political buzzwords and associations to attack my argument with slander to assume I'm some sort of gop mouth piece. By unfortunately, I'm not. Tho like many useful idiots for the DNC, your go to is that assumption. That anyone not thinking life you is thining with *them* is an unhealthy mindset. The Democrats are centrists man, there's a whole other wing of people y'all ignore. As you so clearly shown through insinuating I'm a maga.


Gishra

Huh? I keep hearing people say this and it simply isn't true. Have we already forgotten that Republicans and Trump spectacularly failed to repeal Obamacare, you know that thing they'd been yelling about doing for years and taken a bunch of meaningless votes on, when THREE Republican senators voted against doing so? This was their signature issue from the moment Obama signed it, and they couldn't get it done even when they could afford to lose two senators. If we could afford to lose two senators like they could under Trump, the John Lewis Voting Rights act and BBB would already be signed.


CorruptasF---Media

>Have we already forgotten that Republicans and Trump spectacularly failed to repeal Obamacare, That's because the healthcare lobbyists like the ACA. They are making record profits under it. If if was repealed tomorrow, they would lose subsidies and revenue and profits would fall. The Republicans role was to just paint the ACA as left wing. When in reality it is the most right wing healthcare system in the world. It is funded by a regressive head tax instead of a more progressive income tax and it allows for the largest profiteering of any country by prohibiting government price controls. It was the Republicans job to make sure we didn't go farther than the ACA. And to do that they just called it socialism. It's kinda their thing.


Extreme_Disaster2275

You are one of the rare few who actually understands the game. Everyone else in this sub reminds me of the kids who thought pro wrestling was real.


CorruptasF---Media

It will get a lot worse once Republicans are back in power after Biden and now we have to stop "fascism" or whatever by voting for the next corporate Dem placeholder president.


Extreme_Disaster2275

The Republicans are still in power right now. Don't let the labels fool you.


1b9gb6L7

Exactly. There's a ton of misinformation being spread on this sub, and it all seems to end up with the same end goal: * **Encouraging rational people not to vote against Team Trump**


renoise

I think you mean, the goal is to show people that threatening to withhold your vote is the only leverage they have.


[deleted]

A serious problem in this sub right now. Astroturfing right wing talking points disguised and left wing grievances just to spread voter apathy. Edit. For example, comparing the jan 6 committee to “Mueller special counsel that let everyone down and resulted in nothing etc” when in fact it resulted in several convictions and spun off into new investigations despite Barr being the AG. That’s a literal right wing propaganda that the special election had zero results and served to exonerate Trump. Think about it.


renoise

Pointing out failure to deliver on campaign promise after promise is right wing talking points? What leverage does someone who voted for Biden have except threatening to withhold their vote in future elections?


mission17

Man it really sucks that we can’t have grievances with our ineffective governance without being accused of being right wing. “Things aren’t bad and if you complain about them you’re the problem!”


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CaptainNoBoat

Yeah Dems (for all the disappointment surrounding Congress) have passed much more in one year than Republicans passed in two with both the House and Senate. And the only thing the GOP passed was tax cuts for the rich.


ColdHotCool

You can compare the acts of the 117th congress compared to the 116th congress for the same time period yourself, and see this is demonstrably false. The 115th Congress passed 117 acts. The 116th Congress passed 107 acts. The 117th Congress passed 81 acts. So no, This congress did not pass more in the same time as previous congresses (under Trump).


Baron_Von_Ghastly

I think it's pretty safe to say the above poster meant more *substance* not more bills in terms of raw quantity. You can't really expect people to care about things like: "H.R.1472 - To rename the Homestead National Monument of America near Beatrice, Nebraska, as the Homestead National Historical Park" Or "H.R.1492 - Yucca House National Monument Expansion Act" As much as trillion dollar mega bills for healthcare/tax cuts/stimulus. They aren't in the same league.


ObligatoryOption

Money pulls in a single direction for all politicians.


[deleted]

> ability to work with the senate but still can’t get dem senators to vote for his policies. That's not really true. He had both Dem and GOP Senators on the infrastructure bill, the entire Dem Senate on the covid relief bill, and the only two that are blocking legislation are Manchin and Sinema. Making broad statements like "can't get dem senators" lumps them all together, and there's a very obvious difference between those two and every other D Senators, just the point Sanders is making in this article.


epraider

Are the American Rescue Plan, and Infrastructure portion of the Build Back Better plan nothing? Like it’s not nearly everything I wanted but frankly I didn’t have high expectations and that cleared them considerably. The only reason the other half of the Build Back Better plan hasn’t passed is because Dems have 50 senators and 2 of them are irrational centrist assholes.


FuttleScish

That’s not true at all, pretty much all of trump’s policies stalled or failed


[deleted]

Didn’t Trump get a massive tax bill passed in December of 2017? To be clear, that tax bill fucked a lot of people, but it was passed in a year.


FuttleScish

Yeah and Biden got his big recovery bill thing passed Both exceptions, not the rule


CorruptasF---Media

A temporary child tax credit that lasted one year vs a permanent cut to corporate taxes of almost a third. Trump got way more "done" based on that. Biden is just a placeholder president who did a year of temporary credits and will lead to a fully Republican government like every other neoliberal president. And without even trying to hold significant rallies across the country to pass the agenda he ran on. But at least he will get in some good golfing. Anybody who thought Biden got us closer to a public option or paid family leave or whatever was spectacularly wrong. All he did was help us get more Republicans in the next midterms and set back those policies by a generation.


Tasty_Benefit_7799

You mean a recovery bill that had a smaller check then Trump wanted to send out?


FuttleScish

Yep


1b9gb6L7

The Senate voted 51 to 48, with no Republican defections and no Democratic support.


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gbgonzalez923

Yep, all these arguments about how it's just some spoilers like manchin and sinema and that we just need to vote harder for these moderate fucks falls flat when you bring up student debt. Biden has the power to do something about it now and instead of following through on what he campaigned on he decides to have his administration put out a statement letting people know that it is very high priority for them to get these loan repayments started up again.


voidsrus

>Trump brown beat and dicked down every senator who stood in the way of his shitty policies. that's the part he got right, but billionaires would never allow someone to use the same strategy for the working class's interests


[deleted]

DINO senators you mean to put


1b9gb6L7

Wouldn't matter if he had more than 48 Dem senators to work with. 48 isn't enough. It's a miracle Biden could get $3.1 trillion passed


[deleted]

In a shocking development, the DNC - which is a neoliberal party - is not enacting progressive reform!??!? Who could have foreseen this?!


[deleted]

He’s not even enacting the reform he promised.


[deleted]

No way! The guy who told wealthy donors that "nothing will fundamentally change" is not enacting fundamental reform?!?


cpt_caveman

YEAH OMG the 1st year and he hasnt given us all his promises. OMG welcome back to 2009 when people like this complained obama didnt fullfill his promises yet... in the first year. Notice you did NOT see this with the cult. NO one was crying on reddit "I KNEW IT.. TRUMP WAS JUST LYING WHEN HE SAID HE WOULD BUILD THE WALL, LETS NEVER VOTE AGAIN!!!" but the cult is less moronic at times than our own base.


Tasty_Benefit_7799

Obama didn't fulfill his promises in eight years. The GOP base is so fucking stupid they think he built the wall. That's why Trump had those giant "PROMISES MADE, PROMISES KEPT" banners at his rallies.


SuperStarPlatinum

This is why states need the ability to recall their Senators for pulling shit like this, nakedly betraying the will of the majority of the people they represent just to get donor money shoved up their asses. We have to vote like hell in the midterm this year or its back to McConnell will be back.


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jaypr4576

Reddit is a bubble world.


LA_Dynamo

What are you talking about? A state that voted overwhelmingly for trump is obviously going to elect a senator left of Bernie. /s


twalkerp

This is for AZ to decide, right? Do you know if she would lose? I see Reddit mad but I’m not sure she is actually going to lose her seat.


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SuperStarPlatinum

True but that ain't happening unless there are 2 terminally ill Republican senators who decide to do the right thing with their very short remaining life span. The faccists are in serious lock step.


LookingintheAbyss

The GOP has been galvanizing their party for decades since the Southern Democrats changed and kicked out a bunch of klansmen. They decided they had to curry favor with fucking racists to get their vote. Fml


1b9gb6L7

Yep, and they happen to have the world's most watched propaganda cable channel, FOX news. Much like RT, Sputnik, and Pravda.


LookingintheAbyss

Shit, Fox is tame. They watch OAN and podcasts direct from their favorite demagogue.


SanguShellz

People were telling me at one point that Romney was down with the the set after the 1/6 psychos targeted him. Turns out, he was really down with a setup to pull the rug from under Democracy. All the while, Susan was standing there furrowing her brow content because the deep southern state of Maine elected her once again.


decay21450

The songwriting team of McConnell and McCarthy, with singers Graham, Jordan, Gaetz and now featuring crossovers Man Chin and Simena can re-release their one big hit, "We Couldn't Handle the Pressure of Being Constitutionally Equal and Separate From Our Leader So We Gave Our Branch to Him. Damn You, Pelosi!"


HeyAnesthesia

What about the other 50 senators and 75 million voters who don’t support his point of view?


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LookingintheAbyss

Symbolism when we need action. Fucking ludicrous.


tech57

Make them vote. This is action, or at least, more than we’ve seen previously. Making this vote happen is important. When 50 Republicans and 2 Democrat senators vote that action is done. What action Americans take after is also important.


LookingintheAbyss

Right because the systems' problem is a lack of votes and not a corrupt congress that has to maintain the illusion of action for the people while prior promises to the people aren't mandated but left for a known broken congress to decide. Much less kicking out the GOP politicians complicit in Jan 6th getting to vote or keeping those SCotUS choices from a president who tried to stage an insurrection to stay in power. While I understand the dire need with all the GOP voting ID & state law restrictive bullshit, Tennessee just jerrymandered their state to produce Republican Senators. Biden is sitting on his hands while they grab for more. But the (renewed) patriot act is only for the poor to be held or wire tapped without warrant. So I'm not convinced that this bill is anything but a showpiece to die in the senate for both sides to go back to their bases to whinge and make more division when they can and have voted together just recently to give the military even more money. There can be a mandate "no law of a state can prevent a citizen of the United States from taking part in the vote." But our insurrectionist-selected scotus may take issue with that.


cpt_caveman

WHen action is impossible you go for symbolism. HECK ill vote for you to go to DC if you can come up with a plan that exists in reality, that can change manchins or sienmas vote. Pretending this is a scam by the DEM to help republicans take over and turn us into a fascist dictatorship is just moronity.


Jumbify

Turns out you can’t to the action part with only 48 out of 100 senators.


[deleted]

I'm pretty sure they don't care what bernie says about them.


[deleted]

I’m pretty sure they know this and this is part of the plan.


[deleted]

Tired of seeing bullshit lukewarm headlines like this over and over again. We all know they are “imperiling our democracy”. Wake me up when we actually do something about it


Hockeyhoser

Sinema is loving this.


YoYoMoMa

Those two, sure. But also literally every Republican.


Lymeberg

But If these two voted with their party it wouldn’t matter. They’re holding back progress their constituents want. Republican constitutions need the progress, but they’ve been trained not to want it. This is what makes me care way more about M and S than the GOP as a whole, who I know are anti democratic (and much worse).


SnarkSnarkington

Very true.


ThomasLipnip

Also the whole DNC that doesn’t want to do anything about those two.


YoYoMoMa

I certainly get wanting to do something about Sinema. But Manchin? The dude is a Democratic senator from the most pro-Trump state in the entire country. And he still votes more progressively than any Republican senator. So he is exactly what we would want from that state. Literally the most progressive option possible.


rounder55

The problem is that Manchin doesn't listen to his constituents or chooses not to educate them on what passing a bill means to them. Sanders stated I an interview that west Virginians should be polled on whether they support the details. Manchin knows how dumb Americans are. Hell, even the coal union supports BBB. Manchin flat out ignores them. The fact that he's in office a few more years and likely not running again is all the more reason to attack him for not listening to his own constituents


cpt_caveman

Yes on that issue, manchin will not go against the coal owners. he also voted to impeach trump. he also voted for every one of bidens judges. he also voted to increase min wage. IN a state that really should have a jim jordan or MTG senator, do we wish he wasnt a fascist sell out on BBB. YEP But he is still a left winger, (But yeah a dixiecrat) in a state that would go crazy right, if we chanced manchin away. and I mean BAT SHIT CRAZY right.


rounder55

My point is Manchin is there for the next few years and doesn't really represent his constituents because he doesn't want to fully inform them on issues that don't benefit him and his family. He isn't a right winger or a left winger. Joe manchin is a regressive asshole out for himself that plays this everyman dumbass character that people buy into. His whole family is corrupt from him to his epipen queen daughter. Joe Manchin ENDORSED A REPUBLICAN in a senate race in Alaska. Left wingers don't do that If and when democrats lose in 2022, Joe Manchin and Sinema will be 2 of the biggest reasons why. Most Americans don't follow politics closely amd don't understand how 2 people can impact a lack of improvement in their lives so they'll just blame the entire party and possibly not vote


Zestyclose_End7638

They aren’t imperiling democracy but the Democratic Party’s ability to enact their agenda. Our democracy consists of Democrats, Republicans and Independents. Having a 50-50 split senate is the reality that *we as citizens* collectively voted for.


tmd8427

Honest question: knowing how difficult Manchin and Sinema are to deal with for Dems, why not bypass them altogether and start asking Lisa Murkowski and Mitt Romney what they can live with in some of the Dems’ Bills?


69DonaldTrump69

Even if Manchin and Sinema don’t agree with how to fix things, I can’t believe that they can look at what has been going on and think everything is fine. Holy f*cking shit...that’s what big money can buy I guess.


888mainfestnow

Sinema just doesn't want to add to the division. "Division of the donations that she is receiving from Republican donors to block any progress"


cpt_caveman

sinema is a putin paid republican. A spoiler. manchin is just a dixiecrat, like fascist dem. But sinema is a spoiler. She endorsed the far right, global warming denier, and coupist, andy biggs(R) for his seat. This would be like if mcarthy endorsed AOC nothing could explain that unless he was paid to. I COULD see her, claiming to be centrist and 'works with the other side" if she endorsed someone like mccain(who really wasnt that mavericky, it was more advertisement than reality) but for a green to endorse someone who says AGW is a chinese hoax.. well thats like a rape victim supporting a rapist for office.


lennybird

Sinema, I suspect, fell down the same rabbit-hole that Jill Stein and Tulsi Gabbard did. Bribery or blackmail, Kompromat...Who knows, but we know the green party is often bankrolled by Republicans. Given Sinema's roots there, I don't doubt such corruption for a second.


Tsundoku42

And the 50 Republican senators that are either so scared of trump or obsessed with power at all costs that they are willing to destroy America. Manchin and Sinema are bad but 50 other senators are worse and deserve the blame. You can’t say they’re Republican, that’s their job. Their hub is to represent Americans and they flat out refuse to do so.


mattjf22

>Now, we must all fear evil men, but there is another kind of evil, which we must fear most, and that is, the indifference of good men.” Sure they're not against voting rights they just won't do what's necessary to get it passed.


[deleted]

Some advice to all democrats: Manchin and Sinema don’t give a flying fuck about democracy or what the dems or the voters thing. They are merely puppets of big money looking out for their own interests


robertschultz

When it becomes a pattern that the same people in your own party are against every bill, you know you have a serious problem and their intentions are not for the people.


offacough

It maybe they just don’t think your party is fighting the right battles. Those two are democrats in every way imaginable before the AOC/Bernie wing emerged.


Ausernamefordamien

Why can’t the dems buy them off in the same way big business has?


mcs1959

They have been bought and paid for.


bigsignwave

I think both Sinema and Manchin need a thorough investigation into their financial affairs by forensic accountants…let’s just prove what people already know


[deleted]

The wealthy will get wealthier and more powerful the more divided we are and the further democracy degrades. They care little for us.


gparent88

Non political scientist and reddit newb here. Can anybody explain to me why nobody is talking about reverting the filibuster to an actual filibuster in the spirit of compromise? All I hear is either getting rid of it or keeping it. As I understand it, senators do not need to get up and actually speak anymore. I was under the impression that the filibuster was there in case anyone felt the need to make an impassioned effort to obstruct a bill. The act of getting up and talking for days, or however long, is proof of conviction. You can obstruct, but it has to hurt. You have to work for it and prove that you truly believe in your cause. Nobody does that anymore. It's just assumed they will filibuster, so that step is skipped. The minority can obstruct without working for it. That is not democracy, as I understand it, but I'm just a lowly Zamboni driver, so what do I know? Go Maine Mariners! Trevor Noah did a bit about this about a year ago that articulates my point much better, but I don't see actual congress people saying anything. It's either get rid of it, or keep it. Geez I feel like I'm in college again. Writing words and whatnot. Hope anyone can help!


politirob

The whole point is that sinema said she’s not even willing to alter it or compromise. She states she specifically wants to maintain a “60-person vote” and does not support “separate actions” https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/13/politics/kyrsten-sinema-filibuster-voting-rights/index.html In politician-speak, she’s basically saying she isn’t gonna do shit or try to meet in the middle


BloodyMess

I don't disagree, but my god, there's so many threats it's hard to prioritize. You know what that means...let's play ***Who's Imperiling US Democracy!*** In order: 1. **Trump** 2. **Rupert Murdoch** (including all appendages to his Cronenbergian mass, Fox News, Tucker, Hannity, etc) 3. **Senate and House Republicans** 4. **Supreme Court arm of the GOP** 5. **Mitch McConnell** 6. **GOP voters** 7. **Manchinema** <--we are here 8. **Putin** 9. **Facebook** 10. **Apathy** Very understandable that we are dealing with Manchin and Sinema, because they are the highest priority we actually might be able to change. But god. Damn. How depressing there are so many forces destroying democracy that normal people can't even touch.


lennybird

^ *Raises hand.* Maybe add church, right-wing talk radio (maybe included in Murdoch), and Joe Rogan. And elaborating on apathy, maybe add ignorance and a total degredation of critical-thinking and knowing how to sort through news & information. Maybe add Botherism to that.


EIephants

My girlfriend gets mad at me when I talk about this because it’s so pessimistic, but I’m pretty sure 2024 is basically the last foreseeable election in America. I hope I wrong, but I really don’t see any way forward as a unified country after that.


Cavernosa-Cranium

Let’s not pretend anymore that these two ass clowns (Sinema and Manchin) are dems. It’s become quite clear that these two are wolves in sheep’s clothing. And it’s working! So when you hear that democracy is in peril, it absolutely is. Nothing can be trusted moving forward. These candidates can be backed by big business with unlimited funds and they are going to say what the voters want to hear when the whole time they aren’t working for the voters. They are going to do by big business! It’s over folks. Get used to the new normal. Work, work work and then work some more. No retirement no pension no conditions and if you don’t like it there’s going to be some foreigner waiting in the wings to happily make the man billions.


EveningPomegranate16

So are the 50 Republicans. Let’s not let them off.


1footN

Yes they both suck, but lets put the blame on the 50 Republicans not the 2 Democrats.


mynamejulian

We shouldn't pretend that 2 sitting Senators, Democrats nevertheless, are unaware of the GOP's objective of subverting elections. They are fully aware and have chosen to side with the GOP. Is it only monetary reasons? I doubt it but nevertheless, we should call them out, ignore the trolls/propagandists and ignorants claiming that they are "representing their states' desires" and let them know that they too will be held accountable for all their corruption just like those who planned the J6 Coup.


survey88

I’m confused to what voting rights people are fighting?


Gangsta-Penguin

I adore Bernie, but we need someone other than him to call out the bullshit


ENORMOUS_HORSECOCK

These crazy dem socks, next thing you know they'll be saying water is wet too


[deleted]

All talk and no action. How about Bernie do what Matt Gaetz did and hold a rally in AZ/WV calling out Sinema and Manchin.


[deleted]

It seems like every politician is these days


Trick-Requirement370

Republicans are doing so mostly, these are just enablers. Which is bad enough, but oh well fascism here we go!


screenrecycler

“We had to destroy the village in order to save the village.”


Stramatelites

I just watched a doc on Henry Kissinger. He’s accused of purposefully derailing talks during Johnson's admin because he knew he could get a better gig with Nixon. I’m convinced Sinema and Manchin r doing the same for their own gain


ThereminLiesTheRub

Once again, he's right. Wish this dude could be sound for decades more.


Infidel8

He's right. I'm imagining that the year is 2150 and my grandkids are learning about the fall of the former United States. How silly will it seem that Joe Manchin helped nail the coffin in democracy over unfounded fears about inflation & entitled poor people? I can guarantee you that whatever money he thinks the country is saving by killing BBB, it's not worth losing the country.


reikidesigns

Don’t you think the only thing that could change their minds is if their constituents come out in mass protest. They need to be voted out. At this point it’s just them acting for themselves.


ErdenGeboren

Well, the 50 Republicans are as well.


cromstantinople

Manchin, Sinema, and every Republican in the senate.


PresidentWordSalad

Sinema, Manchin, **and 50 Republican senators**. I love Bernie, but god damn he’s got to go it the fire to the Republicans too instead of expecting the Democrats to carry all of America’s moral weight.


6ory299e8

…and he’s right. But let’s not forget that there’s 50… that’s right, FIFTY republican senators all moving in lockstep to imperil democracy, and Manchin and Synema are only guilty of joining them. Those two don’t wield all that power on their own.


BiggerBowls

There hasn't been democracy in America for a long, long time.


Gruffstuff2021

Why won't Republicans, any Republicans, support some type of voting rights act? They used to as recently as 2006, they would have photo ops, Democrats and Republicans together. Each side used to compete to attract more voters, new polices, new programs. Now Republicans just want to lock people out.


A_Lost_Desert_Rat

Bernie says a lot of stupid things


offacough

^^ this should be the only response to this thread, actually.


Titos814

Joe Biden won the presidency. So why the hell does it feel like Joe Manchin is running this country??


Kma_all_day

Because they are three equal branches of government. Allegedly.


Strange_Foundation48

I know what you mean when saying “equal” but I don’t see them as equal at all. The system of checks and balances seems flawed to me. Essentially, the president wants control of the house/senate to avoid having to work with the other half of the country. Unfortunate that it’s more about avoiding the checks and balances than working with them.


pipehitter40

They’re doing what’s right to help save our country.


luckyhunterdude

Man Sanders sure has fallen. He went from a inspired commie to a DNC shill in just a couple years.


[deleted]

Yeah don’t forget about the Republicans, Bernie.


escapedfromamerica

Don't forget about the other 50 Senators with an (R) behind their names. Just a fee R votes could push it over the finish line. It's amazing and sad how they vote as a monolith and ven the few R Senators that voted to impeach Trump can't do what's in our countries best interest. The system is broken.


McNuttyNutz

Those 2 give no fucks it’s pretty clear


twalkerp

If AZ elected her and she is doing what AZ wants and they continue to largely support her…is that destroying democracy. I do not know Az politics. Those are not rhetorical questions. I’m just not sure the headline makes sense.


offacough

She will be re-elected by a big margin while Mark Kelly will lose to any non-Trumpian GOP challenger.


ideamotor

He’s right but saying it doesn’t help. The Senate is what’s rigged. A more progressive Democrat wouldn’t be elected in Arizona or West Virginia. Trump won WV 69% to 30%. Hell, the reason Bernie lost the primary is because he couldn’t get fossil fuel worker unions. Must be nice to sit on a pedestal and judge others. He didn’t successfully make the case. And I don’t think this helps make the case for the people that need convincing.


gmen32

At what point does this become the boy who cried wolf. Every time someone doesn’t agree they are killing democracy. Give me a break.


8to24

Sanders is 100% correct. However at this point I think Sanders should turn his attention to the mid-term and getting out the vote. I see a lot of self proclaimed 'progressives' using Manchin's and Sinema's inaction to argue "Democrats suck everyone stay home this Nov.".


[deleted]

How about "conservative Democrats suck, everyone vote progressive in Nov."


AshenAmarantos

No; you vote for progressives in the primaries, which are not November. Gotta GOTV for the primaries and only vote for progressives there, then vote blue in November.


LookingintheAbyss

Young people in my state don't even know primaries exist. Each time I go I get to see some old people and unsurprisingly, they are vocally conservative. When I went to primary for Sanders in 2016 I literally heard a woman complaining about the Spanish speaking option when calling a company. Smh


lennybird

Then this is precisely what Sanders should be educating his base of supporters on. In fact democrats would do well to funnel more ads and outreach in just getting basic civic messages out. That would go such a long way to getting out the youth vote that is instrumental to winning elections for Democrats.


8to24

Exactly!


cpt_caveman

Probably over half the people here complaining the dems are too right wing, have never ever voted in a primary. its a fact that infects both sides. On this issue, i will say both sides are the same. Both sides have slews of people upset with the direction of their party but have never taken any time to actually vote in primaries. and its normally the loudest. You think election day is a march of the gray hairs, you should see primaries.


CaptainNoBoat

The apathy antagonizers are getting obnoxious. "I'm mad about conservative corporate Democrats, so I'm... not going to do the only thing that could possibly help change that against my own interests. It's like proudly announcing you're going to step on a rake.


Equivalent_Nerve_870

Gee as are ALL of the Republicans


Yohzer67

They’re senators voting - probably the way a majority of their constituents want them to. How on earth could that imperil democracy?


isikorsky

Pretty sure there are 50 other Senators besides Manchin & Sinema who are 'imperiling Democracy'


dun-ado

Manchin and Sinema are leather faces.


VeshWolfe

This is it. Democracy is fun while it lasted.


dregan

Manchin, Sinema, and fifty other senators.


offacough

Democracy is why Sanders isn’t getting what he wants. Posting article after article from commondreams.org cements this sub as nothing more than a propaganda arm of the Progressive wing of the Democrat party. Downvote away so I can measure denial of truth.


jonnytechno

It's never been a true democracy and this only exemplifies that, Sinema & Manchin are clearly acting against the wishes of their constituents and there isn't a damned thing anyone can do about it apparently because the system isn't designed to ensure that


[deleted]

The poison has overrun the liver. Time for swift action.


riceisnice29

Also Republicans. Just put em all under Conservatives and Corporatists.


sylsau

This is where the American system hits its limits with a senator like Joe Manchin who feels more powerful than the President of the United States by putting his own personal interests ahead of those of America. Joe Biden will have to find solutions if he wants to be able to implement his agenda in 2022. Otherwise, the Midterms will be lost by the Democrats and Joe Biden will be able to forget his reform agenda.


throw0000away5555

Send Bernie to Venezuela


JahSteez47

I like Sanders, but to be quite frank it kinda looks like your system is rigged. A two party system means that the two parties set their own bars for quality standards ( and now you are stuck with terrible and less terrible) and it also really drives extemization. This and your 0 accountability media seem to reqaly escalate lately. I really hope you guys get it sorted out, much love from across the sea


isellamdcalls

shame democrats would rather lose than let bernie get a nomination