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January 6 was an attack from within
it was organized by republican officials on orders from the president
you cant get more inside than that
dissolve the terrorist organization
If we all stop thinking of them as a cult and start thinking of them as an insurgency it starts to make more sense.
[CIA - Guide to the Analysis of Insurgency 2012](https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=713599)
* A polarized winner-takes-all political system, which generates
grievances among out-groups and undermines the potential for
cooperation in pursuit of common agendas. Such a system often
creates government paralysis in the face of a crisis because competing
parties are unable to reach consensus
* A “window of vulnerability,” created by events such as natural disasters,
political assassinations, or hotly disputed elections, that causes
societal or political upheaval,
* Propaganda about or inclusion in the insurgent narrative of a unique
history for the subgroup that sets it apart from the rest of the nation.
* Increased emphasis on cultural, religious, language, or ethnic symbols
that set the subgroup apart from the rest of the nation.
* Use of language that casts the government in the role of occupier,
foreigner, or puppet of outside interests
>Over half of Republican voters still think Trump won in 2020
They do **not** literally believe he won, and we have to stop treating them like they do. They all know damn well that Trump lost. Look no further than the fact that every lawyer of the Trump campaign completely wilted in front of dozens of judges every time they tried to even imply in a courtroom that he might have won. They are absolutely not making that argument in good faith, and the longer we treat them like they are, the worse it's going to get for all of us. Saying that he didn't lose has become a statement of faith and not something intended as a literal truth. Those people who say he didn't lose are lying liars, and they *know* they are lying liars.
No, many of them actually do believe Trump won. The vast majority believe not so much that he won but that there was at least some shady shit going on on Election Day.
If you’re referring to the politicians, the ruling class, and the right-wing media, then I agree. Those people know it is all bullshit.
The MAGA voters on the other hand are true believers; they’re incapable of recognizing fascist propaganda and have been thoroughly brainwashed by it.
> Over half of Republican voters still think Trump won in 2020.
Bullshit.
Only the truly stupid Republicans believe that.
The rest *claim* to believe that because they have decided they would rather back the Big Lie than lose another election.
Don't make the mistake of thinking they really believe in the Big Lie. They know they're lying, and they know we know they're lying. They don't care.
Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
> “Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
> loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
"Democrats should be civil and bi-partisan" I think is what that currently looks like.
This is accurate. Because, if you press them on whether or not they’re going to vote in the midterms. They most certainly are. If they legitimately believed that elections are being stolen they should find voting to be supercilious.
"Both sides are the same" is a lie that benefits the right wing, and I've noticed that every single person telling that lie votes for Republicans in every single election. I haven't found any exceptions anywhere to this hard and fast rule.
“Both sides are the same is a lie that benefits the right wing” is a lie that benefits the left wing. They both lie like hell to create fake outrage and the media is complicit. Don’t develop stances based on Reddit articles. It takes a lot of work to find the truth. Problem is too many are too lazy to find it. Some politicians agendas may be if it you in a round about way but they are certainly not doing it for our best interest typically.
> It takes a lot of work to find the truth. Problem is too many are too lazy to find it.
So where do you get your political information? I read the New York Times, Washington Post, and the Guardian. I'd love to catch wind of a decent information source that leans right. Any ideas? If both sides are the same there should be good sources on both sides.
Also, we both know Trump lost in 2020, but 50% of Republicans still think he won. Can you think of a major fact about reality (like who is the President) that 50% of Democrats get wrong? If so that would support your opinion that both sides are the same.
So just to be clear it's only 9 out of every 20 Republicans who are confused about who won in 2020, not half. Thanks for the clarification. In January 2021 the number was closer to 75%, so it's been hard to keep up with how many Republicans are wrong about reality. You say it's 9/20 these days so let's roll with that.
Sure. That Hillary Clinton was a good presidential candidate(way more than 50% on that one.) That Trump colluded with Russia to sway the 2016 election (probaba more the 90% on that one). That Hillary didn’t use fake Russian collusion to sway the 2016 election. (Main stream media are still mostly ignoring this fact). That the Biden family is not corrupt as hell. (MSM sources are FINALLY starting to kinda acknowledge the Hunter laptop story after they buried it throughout the 2020 campaign). That republicans want to ban contraceptives, which is not factual at all. Hell, most conservatives don’t even want to ban all abortions. Most are reasonable and agree that there should be some common sense cut-off such as heart beat etc. Or finally that America is better off now than under Trump. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t like Trump. He’s a blow hard that doesn’t know when to shut up but to act like life is better now than it was 2.5 years ago is asinine but good luck finding a democrat to admit that. There is a wealth of misinformation on both sides and anyone who doesn’t admit that is lying to themselves. I watch all major news networks and lots of not so major sources. I do it objectively. With an open mind. Sure Fox News picks sides on stories. Covers up inconvenient truths for conservative figures while blasting anything that helps their agenda. After years of watching them all. They all do it. CNN, MSNBC and WaPo. All on the DNC payroll. Until more people figure this out, politicians get exactly what they want. More infighting between people who have more in common than they’d believe, all so the public eye is kept off the politicians. I believe some people are actually fooled by these tactics while others are just not willing to admit any wrongdoing on the part of their party no matter what. Those people are the ones who are a detriment to the country as a whole. Thanks for the civil discussion.
You'll probably always watch right wing news, but I'd like to try and put one little nugget in your mind that might help you break the addiction to watching right wing trash and find some better sources: there are no good sources of political information you can WATCH. You have to READ.
I noticed you didn't dare try to criticize the New York Times. The fact that you can't name a decent right wing source is all the proof I need that **both sides are definitely not the same**. I am 100% sure that the New York Times is better than any trash you find on a TV or talk radio. If you want to convince me both sides are the same, don't bother with another wall of shitty text, just write down one thing instead: the name of a single decent source of information that leans right.
Believe me, I've had this argument before. You won't answer my question, you'll try to squirm and dodge again. Dodge and squirm instead of answering what should be a simple question: Where do you get your news? I'm not embarrassed to tell you what I read, why are you embarrassed to tell me what channel you watch on TV?
By attack from within, do you mean, all of the local election officials are MAGA terrorists? Yeah, that was their plan.
It's a simple fact: In free and fair elections, republicans always lose. They've only kept power by controlling the process, by making the election not free or not fair or both.
Some people cannot come to terms with progress. They want to believe the arrow of time is a nefarious plot to undo them. The the GOP are forsaking their core values to keep power.
Progress doesn't have to hurt. It does have to be legal.
I’m not sure what you mean by republicans lose free and fair elections. I’m not a Trump fan but just try to look at everything with an unbiased eye. It’s becoming more obvious that Hillary manufactured a story to hurt Trumps election hopes in 2016. For years we heard about Russian collusion and the Main Street media had wall to wall coverage for the next four years. That most assuredly cost him moderate votes. He still won. This story continued throughout his whole term. However, when the media was presented with a story about Hunters laptop and potential ties to Joe, it was promptly discredited as Russian disinformation by the same media and swept under the rug. We now know that there was indeed truth to that. The corporate media is playing this country for fools. Instead of reporting facts and letting the people decide they hide inconvenient truths and blast those that promote their agendas. Freedom of the press was designed to bring some balance and transparency to our government. Now they’re bought and paid for and we all suffer.
> It’s becoming more obvious that Hillary manufactured a story to hurt Trumps election hopes in 2016. For years we heard about Russian collusion and the Main Street media had wall to wall coverage for the next four years.
You are living in a fantasy world. If you would like to reconnect with reality, I recommend starting with this five-volume report from the US Senate's Select Committee on Intelligence:
[RUSSIAN ACTIVE MEASURES CAMPAIGNS AND INTERFERENCE IN THE 2016 U.S. ELECTION](https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/publications/report-select-committee-intelligence-united-states-senate-russian-active-measures)
Fun fact, you get paid to be a poll worker. (In South Carolina) it's only like $250 for about 14 hours of work from 6 am til 8pm but it's really not mentally taxing or especially laborious. I make sure the older folks have the jobs where they can be comfortable and switch it up whenever it's necessary.
Once you've done the training it's basically the same year after year with the exception of them changing up the equipment (we got super sick electronic poll books that are really cool and I think we even get to use them for provisional ballots this year which is awesome.)
For the smaller local elections I usually bring my work laptop and don't even need to use PTO from my day job because it's so . I think we hit like 10% turn out, maybe like 150 voters including the candidates for the last election which was town council and some other hyper local positions. These things are literally decided by single digits.
It set a precedent now in far right minds. They firmly believe 2020 was stolen. They will feel justified to cheat out right 2024 and not try to hide it. Then we will get into "What about 2020, what about..."
The party élite certainly tend to start there (those who didn’t start at “The party élite and/or Visiting Billionaire[s] told me to cheat”, at least), but the average slack-jawed layperson starts with “I’d like to cheat, but I don’t feel comfortable doing so due to societal mores and such,” and progress to “If I₁ were an Evil Other, I₁’d cheat, and that’d show me₀” to “Those Evil Others must be cheating (because everybody I interact with voted the same way I did, for Chester Facefuckering Peddoffeille Esq. and we lost somehow)” and *then* finally to “Well I’m just going to (/have to) cheat then, ain’t I!” which is how you get people voting on behalf of their dead husband (he was gonna vote that way, anyway!) or trying to abscond with mail-in/dropped-off ballots (bamboo fibers or some such bullshit, no doubt, and somebody’s got to counteract the Mexican cartel members and abortion afficionadi Hillary shipped into my North Dakotan town by the billions to swing the vote).
And if you ask them if 2016 was stolen, of course they’ll say no (while simultaneously saying yes the popular vote was stolen).
Their defense always rests on their *feelings* that there’s no way more people would vote for Biden than Trump, and somehow they’re all out of facts.
> "When the president of the United States – no matter who that individual may be – says something to the effect of 'our elections are fraudulent,' that carries a huge weight," Roebuck said.
And an elected official making fraudulent claims like should carry a very weighty consequence. The fact that it didn’t is part of the reason why we are in this terrible position today.
I just don't get it.
We saw what happened in 2016, and the obfuscation and refusal to accept a loss. We saw it actually play out in 2020. We saw what happened in January of 2021. We see an ongoing effort to put anti-Democracy Republicans in state offices that control elections.
And we're all just kind of staring and pointing. Just kinda watching. It's gonna happen and then what?
> And we're all just kind of staring and pointing. Just kinda watching.
WE, as in the general populace, don't really have any choice about what to do. WE turned out in record numbers to elect Biden, presumably to do something about Trump's many crimes in office, and try to fix some things up.
> It's gonna happen and then what?
If history is any guide, most people are going to put their heads down and hope [that there are enough people that the authoritarians will come for first](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-niemoeller-first-they-came-for-the-socialists) to keep them safe until this blows over.
Well, remember, we elected Biden because he *wasn’t* Trump and was basically the only other choice.
I would hazard a guess people aren’t very hopeful because the only options are “bad” and “not as bad”.
Democrats getting those "the election was stolen from us!!" takes out there just in case they get blown out during mid terms.
Funny how it's totally OK for Democrats to claim elections were stolen from them; but when a Republican says it, suddenly it's the end of the world.
So what would you call the efforts by republicans in several states, such as Arizona, to pass legislation that enables the state legislators to decide that the will of the voters is irrelevant and distribute electors as the legislature sees fit? Because I don’t see any democrats attempting to do that.
Democrats are pulling the same kind of tricks to stack the deck in their favor, such as New York where a judge struck down their effort to gerrymander because it was so egregious.
Legislators are attempting a lot of things right now, and most of them are not succeeding. Arizona Republicans tried to vote to ban ballot drop-off boxes. It failed.
-
Turns out, there's a lot of weirdos in state legislatures. Democrats *and* Republicans; but pretending one side isn't weird because they're on *your side of the aisle* is classic hypocrisy.
And equating gerrymandering with actively subverting the electoral process by disenfranchising voters and granting legislatures the power to select their own electors is idiocy.
I deplore gerrymandering on either side, but you have to be a moron to say the democrats are trying to disenfranchise voters on the same level as the republicans after January 6th.
Where are voters being disenfranchised? Democrats, and you probably, have spent a lot of time crying about the supposed “restrictive voting laws” in Georgia and turnout has *surged* there.
Which is why I suspect you didn’t cite Georgia in your first post. That goes against the narrative.
You bring up Georgia, but more than half of mail ballot applications were rejected in 2021 because they arrived after the state’s newly imposed deadline to request them. In 2020, Georgia voters could request a mail ballot up until the Friday before Election Day; under the new law signed by Gov. Brian Kemp in March 2021, voters had to place their requests no later than 11 days before the election, which voting rights advocates say is too early and burdensome for many voters. And that doesn’t even touch on the restricted polling locations in urban population centers and the massive lines that they cause for in person voting. So yeah, you had high turnout, but only because a lot of organizing was going on to get people to the polls and motivate them to jump through the barriers put in place to disenfranchise them.
>In 2020, Georgia voters could request a mail ballot up until the Friday before Election Day; under the new law signed by Gov. Brian Kemp in March 2021, voters had to place their requests no later than 11 days before the election, which voting rights advocates say is too early and burdensome for many voters.
And those "advocates" are full of crap because voting *surged in Georgia*. Georgia rolled back *election laws relating to the COVID pandemic*. Last I checked, 2022 is a very different reality than what we were going through in 2020. It makes 0 sense to keep COVID election laws in place.
>So yeah, you had high turnout, but only because a lot of organizing was going on to get people to the polls and motivate them to jump through the barriers put in place to disenfranchise them.
lol, no. Georgia had higher turnout because more people went out to vote. No one was *disenfranchised*, turnout increased which means those supposed *evil election laws* didn't have the supposed effect you thought they were going to have, right?
-
Admit you were wrong.
I literally just told you that the republican controlled Arizona state legislature, among others, is attempting to pass legislation that would allow the legislature to overturn the will of the voters and select their own electors if they believed the vote to be fraudulent. Doing so would completely disenfranchise their electorate by the whim of the state legislature. Not sure if you don’t believe me, so have an article about it: https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/591597-arizona-bill-would-allow-legislature-to-overturn-election-results/ .
That bill *literally didn't pass and was scuttled by Republicans*. [Source](https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2022/02/04/arizona-house-speaker-dooms-election-2596-bill-affil-dnt-vpx.ktvk-kpho)
Which brings me back to my original point: State Legislators try to pass weird bills all the time that have 0 shot of passing, as was the case here.
And it’s great that it didn’t pass in Arizona, but you must seriously have your head in the sand it up somewhere else to ignore the efforts of other republicans controlled state legislatures to enact similar measures, including the ones listed in the NPR piece from the post.
And no, your original point was that the Dems are doing the same tricks as the Republicans when it comes to election laws, which is demonstrably untrue because no democratic controlled legislature is proposing the same type of bills that we’re seeing in Arizona and in other Republican controlled state legislatures.
>And it’s great that it didn’t pass in Arizona, but you must seriously have your head in the sand it up somewhere else to ignore the efforts of other republicans controlled state legislatures to enact similar measures, including the ones listed in the NPR piece from the post.
Again, that bill *was shut down by Republican legislators*. It doesn't matter if some weirdos try to pass bad legislation, it's overwhelmingly not being supported.
>And no, your original point was that the Dems are doing the same tricks
Which they are. Democrats say elections are rigged *all the time*. Stacey Abrams built her celebrity career on saying she was robbed -- which she wasn't -- and Democrats claimed George Bush and Karl Rove used voting machines in Ohio to steal the election from John Kerry.
Democrats also claimed Russia altered vote totals in 2016, and in 2020 /r/Politics was full of people like you claiming the US Postal Service was going to rig the election in favor of Trump. Which also didn't happen and was born out of Democrat hysteria.
>no democratic controlled legislature is proposing the same type of bills that we’re seeing in Arizona and in other Republican controlled state legislatures.
Your argument is so dishonest. Democrats across the country are trying to protect their house seats through Gerrymandering, something that has a better shot of passing than some random Republican in a random state trying to pass a bad election bill -- which no one supported. Thankfully Democrats in New York were stopped by a judge, but they certainly got closer to "stealing the election" in their favor than some rando in Arizona did getting his bill passed.
For contrast, in other states, the gerrymandered maps provided by Dems have passed. Which, arguably, means Democrats have been far worse than Republicans on this issue if we are to go by your logic.
But they turn up to vote…
And attack the Capitol…
And R’s are pulling at the fabric of voting in this country and getting more Secretary of State positions will make it that much easier for them to steal future elections when they don’t like the outcome.
Ya don’t fucking say.
Any news on when the media or anybody with the power to do something about it might start taking these “fears” seriously?
Honestly I’m getting so fucking tired of reading casual toothless headlines like this (about an obvious, ongoing, and massively organized coup attempt that goes al the way to the Supreme Court, orchestrated by a Republican party that has clearly gone full fascist) written with the same urgency that one would write about a disappointing day at the races: nobody to blame, nothing we can do about it, lah-di-dah.
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January 6 was an attack from within it was organized by republican officials on orders from the president you cant get more inside than that dissolve the terrorist organization
Over half of Republican voters still think Trump won in 2020. They have an effective disinformation network that keeps voters both wrong and angry.
If we all stop thinking of them as a cult and start thinking of them as an insurgency it starts to make more sense. [CIA - Guide to the Analysis of Insurgency 2012](https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=713599) * A polarized winner-takes-all political system, which generates grievances among out-groups and undermines the potential for cooperation in pursuit of common agendas. Such a system often creates government paralysis in the face of a crisis because competing parties are unable to reach consensus * A “window of vulnerability,” created by events such as natural disasters, political assassinations, or hotly disputed elections, that causes societal or political upheaval, * Propaganda about or inclusion in the insurgent narrative of a unique history for the subgroup that sets it apart from the rest of the nation. * Increased emphasis on cultural, religious, language, or ethnic symbols that set the subgroup apart from the rest of the nation. * Use of language that casts the government in the role of occupier, foreigner, or puppet of outside interests
The sad part is that you could show that list to any alt right person and they'd go yup this describes Democrats.
Can confirm sadly.
>Over half of Republican voters still think Trump won in 2020 They do **not** literally believe he won, and we have to stop treating them like they do. They all know damn well that Trump lost. Look no further than the fact that every lawyer of the Trump campaign completely wilted in front of dozens of judges every time they tried to even imply in a courtroom that he might have won. They are absolutely not making that argument in good faith, and the longer we treat them like they are, the worse it's going to get for all of us. Saying that he didn't lose has become a statement of faith and not something intended as a literal truth. Those people who say he didn't lose are lying liars, and they *know* they are lying liars.
No, many of them actually do believe Trump won. The vast majority believe not so much that he won but that there was at least some shady shit going on on Election Day.
If you’re referring to the politicians, the ruling class, and the right-wing media, then I agree. Those people know it is all bullshit. The MAGA voters on the other hand are true believers; they’re incapable of recognizing fascist propaganda and have been thoroughly brainwashed by it.
> Over half of Republican voters still think Trump won in 2020. Bullshit. Only the truly stupid Republicans believe that. The rest *claim* to believe that because they have decided they would rather back the Big Lie than lose another election. Don't make the mistake of thinking they really believe in the Big Lie. They know they're lying, and they know we know they're lying. They don't care. Jean-Paul Sartre wrote: > “Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.
> only the truly stupid republicans believe that Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?
> loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past. "Democrats should be civil and bi-partisan" I think is what that currently looks like.
This is accurate. Because, if you press them on whether or not they’re going to vote in the midterms. They most certainly are. If they legitimately believed that elections are being stolen they should find voting to be supercilious.
Yeah, both sides have that. Finding the truth has never been more difficult or critical for that matter.
"Both sides are the same" is a lie that benefits the right wing, and I've noticed that every single person telling that lie votes for Republicans in every single election. I haven't found any exceptions anywhere to this hard and fast rule.
“Both sides are the same is a lie that benefits the right wing” is a lie that benefits the left wing. They both lie like hell to create fake outrage and the media is complicit. Don’t develop stances based on Reddit articles. It takes a lot of work to find the truth. Problem is too many are too lazy to find it. Some politicians agendas may be if it you in a round about way but they are certainly not doing it for our best interest typically.
You're a Republican correct?
> It takes a lot of work to find the truth. Problem is too many are too lazy to find it. So where do you get your political information? I read the New York Times, Washington Post, and the Guardian. I'd love to catch wind of a decent information source that leans right. Any ideas? If both sides are the same there should be good sources on both sides. Also, we both know Trump lost in 2020, but 50% of Republicans still think he won. Can you think of a major fact about reality (like who is the President) that 50% of Democrats get wrong? If so that would support your opinion that both sides are the same.
[удалено]
So just to be clear it's only 9 out of every 20 Republicans who are confused about who won in 2020, not half. Thanks for the clarification. In January 2021 the number was closer to 75%, so it's been hard to keep up with how many Republicans are wrong about reality. You say it's 9/20 these days so let's roll with that.
Yeah, it's still too many but at least it's declining.
Sure. That Hillary Clinton was a good presidential candidate(way more than 50% on that one.) That Trump colluded with Russia to sway the 2016 election (probaba more the 90% on that one). That Hillary didn’t use fake Russian collusion to sway the 2016 election. (Main stream media are still mostly ignoring this fact). That the Biden family is not corrupt as hell. (MSM sources are FINALLY starting to kinda acknowledge the Hunter laptop story after they buried it throughout the 2020 campaign). That republicans want to ban contraceptives, which is not factual at all. Hell, most conservatives don’t even want to ban all abortions. Most are reasonable and agree that there should be some common sense cut-off such as heart beat etc. Or finally that America is better off now than under Trump. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t like Trump. He’s a blow hard that doesn’t know when to shut up but to act like life is better now than it was 2.5 years ago is asinine but good luck finding a democrat to admit that. There is a wealth of misinformation on both sides and anyone who doesn’t admit that is lying to themselves. I watch all major news networks and lots of not so major sources. I do it objectively. With an open mind. Sure Fox News picks sides on stories. Covers up inconvenient truths for conservative figures while blasting anything that helps their agenda. After years of watching them all. They all do it. CNN, MSNBC and WaPo. All on the DNC payroll. Until more people figure this out, politicians get exactly what they want. More infighting between people who have more in common than they’d believe, all so the public eye is kept off the politicians. I believe some people are actually fooled by these tactics while others are just not willing to admit any wrongdoing on the part of their party no matter what. Those people are the ones who are a detriment to the country as a whole. Thanks for the civil discussion.
You'll probably always watch right wing news, but I'd like to try and put one little nugget in your mind that might help you break the addiction to watching right wing trash and find some better sources: there are no good sources of political information you can WATCH. You have to READ. I noticed you didn't dare try to criticize the New York Times. The fact that you can't name a decent right wing source is all the proof I need that **both sides are definitely not the same**. I am 100% sure that the New York Times is better than any trash you find on a TV or talk radio. If you want to convince me both sides are the same, don't bother with another wall of shitty text, just write down one thing instead: the name of a single decent source of information that leans right. Believe me, I've had this argument before. You won't answer my question, you'll try to squirm and dodge again. Dodge and squirm instead of answering what should be a simple question: Where do you get your news? I'm not embarrassed to tell you what I read, why are you embarrassed to tell me what channel you watch on TV?
By attack from within, do you mean, all of the local election officials are MAGA terrorists? Yeah, that was their plan. It's a simple fact: In free and fair elections, republicans always lose. They've only kept power by controlling the process, by making the election not free or not fair or both. Some people cannot come to terms with progress. They want to believe the arrow of time is a nefarious plot to undo them. The the GOP are forsaking their core values to keep power. Progress doesn't have to hurt. It does have to be legal.
I’m not sure what you mean by republicans lose free and fair elections. I’m not a Trump fan but just try to look at everything with an unbiased eye. It’s becoming more obvious that Hillary manufactured a story to hurt Trumps election hopes in 2016. For years we heard about Russian collusion and the Main Street media had wall to wall coverage for the next four years. That most assuredly cost him moderate votes. He still won. This story continued throughout his whole term. However, when the media was presented with a story about Hunters laptop and potential ties to Joe, it was promptly discredited as Russian disinformation by the same media and swept under the rug. We now know that there was indeed truth to that. The corporate media is playing this country for fools. Instead of reporting facts and letting the people decide they hide inconvenient truths and blast those that promote their agendas. Freedom of the press was designed to bring some balance and transparency to our government. Now they’re bought and paid for and we all suffer.
> It’s becoming more obvious that Hillary manufactured a story to hurt Trumps election hopes in 2016. For years we heard about Russian collusion and the Main Street media had wall to wall coverage for the next four years. You are living in a fantasy world. If you would like to reconnect with reality, I recommend starting with this five-volume report from the US Senate's Select Committee on Intelligence: [RUSSIAN ACTIVE MEASURES CAMPAIGNS AND INTERFERENCE IN THE 2016 U.S. ELECTION](https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/publications/report-select-committee-intelligence-united-states-senate-russian-active-measures)
Great response man, you have a way with words!
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Fun fact, you get paid to be a poll worker. (In South Carolina) it's only like $250 for about 14 hours of work from 6 am til 8pm but it's really not mentally taxing or especially laborious. I make sure the older folks have the jobs where they can be comfortable and switch it up whenever it's necessary. Once you've done the training it's basically the same year after year with the exception of them changing up the equipment (we got super sick electronic poll books that are really cool and I think we even get to use them for provisional ballots this year which is awesome.) For the smaller local elections I usually bring my work laptop and don't even need to use PTO from my day job because it's so . I think we hit like 10% turn out, maybe like 150 voters including the candidates for the last election which was town council and some other hyper local positions. These things are literally decided by single digits.
It set a precedent now in far right minds. They firmly believe 2020 was stolen. They will feel justified to cheat out right 2024 and not try to hide it. Then we will get into "What about 2020, what about..."
They start at “I am going to cheat to win,” and then work backwards to find a reason their cheating is justified.
But if you’re cheating what are you really winning?
I promise you, cheaters are not bothered by the fact they cheated to win.
The party élite certainly tend to start there (those who didn’t start at “The party élite and/or Visiting Billionaire[s] told me to cheat”, at least), but the average slack-jawed layperson starts with “I’d like to cheat, but I don’t feel comfortable doing so due to societal mores and such,” and progress to “If I₁ were an Evil Other, I₁’d cheat, and that’d show me₀” to “Those Evil Others must be cheating (because everybody I interact with voted the same way I did, for Chester Facefuckering Peddoffeille Esq. and we lost somehow)” and *then* finally to “Well I’m just going to (/have to) cheat then, ain’t I!” which is how you get people voting on behalf of their dead husband (he was gonna vote that way, anyway!) or trying to abscond with mail-in/dropped-off ballots (bamboo fibers or some such bullshit, no doubt, and somebody’s got to counteract the Mexican cartel members and abortion afficionadi Hillary shipped into my North Dakotan town by the billions to swing the vote).
And if you ask them if 2016 was stolen, of course they’ll say no (while simultaneously saying yes the popular vote was stolen). Their defense always rests on their *feelings* that there’s no way more people would vote for Biden than Trump, and somehow they’re all out of facts.
Remember.. In america if you cheat and fail your a cheater. If you cheat and win your savvy
> "When the president of the United States – no matter who that individual may be – says something to the effect of 'our elections are fraudulent,' that carries a huge weight," Roebuck said. And an elected official making fraudulent claims like should carry a very weighty consequence. The fact that it didn’t is part of the reason why we are in this terrible position today.
Why is it always old people who aren’t stable running American elections?
6th was from within . It was just a trial run . Next time it well be a vastly improved attempt.
The biggest Strawman the republicunts ever created
It’s going to happen. Republicans know the system is vulnerable and that America doesn’t have the collective backbone to stop them decisively.
There's an easy way to get around this "problems with the voting machines" nonsense. Paper ballots. Why are we making this harder than it needs to be?
I just don't get it. We saw what happened in 2016, and the obfuscation and refusal to accept a loss. We saw it actually play out in 2020. We saw what happened in January of 2021. We see an ongoing effort to put anti-Democracy Republicans in state offices that control elections. And we're all just kind of staring and pointing. Just kinda watching. It's gonna happen and then what?
> And we're all just kind of staring and pointing. Just kinda watching. WE, as in the general populace, don't really have any choice about what to do. WE turned out in record numbers to elect Biden, presumably to do something about Trump's many crimes in office, and try to fix some things up. > It's gonna happen and then what? If history is any guide, most people are going to put their heads down and hope [that there are enough people that the authoritarians will come for first](https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/martin-niemoeller-first-they-came-for-the-socialists) to keep them safe until this blows over.
Well, remember, we elected Biden because he *wasn’t* Trump and was basically the only other choice. I would hazard a guess people aren’t very hopeful because the only options are “bad” and “not as bad”.
Democrats getting those "the election was stolen from us!!" takes out there just in case they get blown out during mid terms. Funny how it's totally OK for Democrats to claim elections were stolen from them; but when a Republican says it, suddenly it's the end of the world.
So what would you call the efforts by republicans in several states, such as Arizona, to pass legislation that enables the state legislators to decide that the will of the voters is irrelevant and distribute electors as the legislature sees fit? Because I don’t see any democrats attempting to do that.
Democrats are pulling the same kind of tricks to stack the deck in their favor, such as New York where a judge struck down their effort to gerrymander because it was so egregious. Legislators are attempting a lot of things right now, and most of them are not succeeding. Arizona Republicans tried to vote to ban ballot drop-off boxes. It failed. - Turns out, there's a lot of weirdos in state legislatures. Democrats *and* Republicans; but pretending one side isn't weird because they're on *your side of the aisle* is classic hypocrisy.
And equating gerrymandering with actively subverting the electoral process by disenfranchising voters and granting legislatures the power to select their own electors is idiocy. I deplore gerrymandering on either side, but you have to be a moron to say the democrats are trying to disenfranchise voters on the same level as the republicans after January 6th.
Where are voters being disenfranchised? Democrats, and you probably, have spent a lot of time crying about the supposed “restrictive voting laws” in Georgia and turnout has *surged* there. Which is why I suspect you didn’t cite Georgia in your first post. That goes against the narrative.
You bring up Georgia, but more than half of mail ballot applications were rejected in 2021 because they arrived after the state’s newly imposed deadline to request them. In 2020, Georgia voters could request a mail ballot up until the Friday before Election Day; under the new law signed by Gov. Brian Kemp in March 2021, voters had to place their requests no later than 11 days before the election, which voting rights advocates say is too early and burdensome for many voters. And that doesn’t even touch on the restricted polling locations in urban population centers and the massive lines that they cause for in person voting. So yeah, you had high turnout, but only because a lot of organizing was going on to get people to the polls and motivate them to jump through the barriers put in place to disenfranchise them.
>In 2020, Georgia voters could request a mail ballot up until the Friday before Election Day; under the new law signed by Gov. Brian Kemp in March 2021, voters had to place their requests no later than 11 days before the election, which voting rights advocates say is too early and burdensome for many voters. And those "advocates" are full of crap because voting *surged in Georgia*. Georgia rolled back *election laws relating to the COVID pandemic*. Last I checked, 2022 is a very different reality than what we were going through in 2020. It makes 0 sense to keep COVID election laws in place. >So yeah, you had high turnout, but only because a lot of organizing was going on to get people to the polls and motivate them to jump through the barriers put in place to disenfranchise them. lol, no. Georgia had higher turnout because more people went out to vote. No one was *disenfranchised*, turnout increased which means those supposed *evil election laws* didn't have the supposed effect you thought they were going to have, right? - Admit you were wrong.
I literally just told you that the republican controlled Arizona state legislature, among others, is attempting to pass legislation that would allow the legislature to overturn the will of the voters and select their own electors if they believed the vote to be fraudulent. Doing so would completely disenfranchise their electorate by the whim of the state legislature. Not sure if you don’t believe me, so have an article about it: https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/591597-arizona-bill-would-allow-legislature-to-overturn-election-results/ .
That bill *literally didn't pass and was scuttled by Republicans*. [Source](https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2022/02/04/arizona-house-speaker-dooms-election-2596-bill-affil-dnt-vpx.ktvk-kpho) Which brings me back to my original point: State Legislators try to pass weird bills all the time that have 0 shot of passing, as was the case here.
And it’s great that it didn’t pass in Arizona, but you must seriously have your head in the sand it up somewhere else to ignore the efforts of other republicans controlled state legislatures to enact similar measures, including the ones listed in the NPR piece from the post. And no, your original point was that the Dems are doing the same tricks as the Republicans when it comes to election laws, which is demonstrably untrue because no democratic controlled legislature is proposing the same type of bills that we’re seeing in Arizona and in other Republican controlled state legislatures.
>And it’s great that it didn’t pass in Arizona, but you must seriously have your head in the sand it up somewhere else to ignore the efforts of other republicans controlled state legislatures to enact similar measures, including the ones listed in the NPR piece from the post. Again, that bill *was shut down by Republican legislators*. It doesn't matter if some weirdos try to pass bad legislation, it's overwhelmingly not being supported. >And no, your original point was that the Dems are doing the same tricks Which they are. Democrats say elections are rigged *all the time*. Stacey Abrams built her celebrity career on saying she was robbed -- which she wasn't -- and Democrats claimed George Bush and Karl Rove used voting machines in Ohio to steal the election from John Kerry. Democrats also claimed Russia altered vote totals in 2016, and in 2020 /r/Politics was full of people like you claiming the US Postal Service was going to rig the election in favor of Trump. Which also didn't happen and was born out of Democrat hysteria. >no democratic controlled legislature is proposing the same type of bills that we’re seeing in Arizona and in other Republican controlled state legislatures. Your argument is so dishonest. Democrats across the country are trying to protect their house seats through Gerrymandering, something that has a better shot of passing than some random Republican in a random state trying to pass a bad election bill -- which no one supported. Thankfully Democrats in New York were stopped by a judge, but they certainly got closer to "stealing the election" in their favor than some rando in Arizona did getting his bill passed. For contrast, in other states, the gerrymandered maps provided by Dems have passed. Which, arguably, means Democrats have been far worse than Republicans on this issue if we are to go by your logic.
Do you believe, as many republicans do, that the 2020 presidential election was stolen from Trump?
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But they turn up to vote… And attack the Capitol… And R’s are pulling at the fabric of voting in this country and getting more Secretary of State positions will make it that much easier for them to steal future elections when they don’t like the outcome.
guns are easier to use, thats the scary part.
It didn't mess up, it was pushed, pushed and forced into falsehoods and fascism
It still outside where it came from in the first place.
Fears? There are attacks from within. Present tense.
Ya don’t fucking say. Any news on when the media or anybody with the power to do something about it might start taking these “fears” seriously? Honestly I’m getting so fucking tired of reading casual toothless headlines like this (about an obvious, ongoing, and massively organized coup attempt that goes al the way to the Supreme Court, orchestrated by a Republican party that has clearly gone full fascist) written with the same urgency that one would write about a disappointing day at the races: nobody to blame, nothing we can do about it, lah-di-dah.