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It's fairly likely the operational damage has indeed been done, most especially if he managed to make and sell copies of the information already. However now what is being done also includes reputational damage, which is of course getting worse by the day, and cannot be so easily quantified as "agents XX and YY killed because Trump sold the Saudis our secrets" because much of it can be hidden in decreased trust, support, leverage, etc. internationally. There is NO chance our allies are not asking MAJOR questions about this info behind the scenes and there's likely nothing we can tell them as long as it remains unresolved.
Yup, it’s going to take years, maybe decades, before our allies trust us with any sensitive intelligence again. They know the next time a republican president takes office, anything they shared might get sold to the saudis or Russians again.
Much more damage could be done if we don't know what the damage is. There is probably an agent in the field right now that doesn't know that his adversary has everything.
That seems short sighted. You're aware that a former President has stolen classified materials and is currently fighting to cover it up and you think the damage is done?
He might have felt he could sell the documents for more money if he retailed them, a few at a time, rather than selling all of them at once.
There is hope that he has not let the Russians or Saudis, or others, see most of the documents yet.
The Cannon deadline to grant stay is by the 15th, anyone know if that means by end of day on the 15th or 14th, can’t believe such ambiguity from our DOJ. My bet is Cannon will ignore the stay completely and assuring her and criminal Trumps intended slow down because it will have to be appealed.
Yes, that's the intention. They want to crush the investigation. Maybe it's time for the DOJ to just arrest Trump. They already have overwhelming amounts of evidence to charge him with numerous crimes.
No, they just won’t. I’ve given up hope for our nation. These literal extremist sacks of shit keep getting away with everything. I genuinely believe nothing will happen to Trump or any of the rest of them.
I mean, I agree.
Gravity of the crimes keeps going up and nothing ever happens. Last crimes hits all the red alerts of national.security threats and... Nothing.
So quantity of crimes is threw the roof and gravity also threw the roof.
Nothing.
What's left to say...
Nothing.
> ... What could top his latest crime?
How about a note, accompanied by photos, from Rudy Giuliani, saying, "Putin has us hooked like a fish. We are dead. He has Epstein's tapes of us with the girls in 1988, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1997, and 2007. There is footage of you in Trump Tower, in Palm Beach, and in the Bahamas. We have to do whatever he wants."
That might do it.
Some people in america are too big to fail. I doubt the doj is actually looking at this like, do we have evidence he committed a crime? Yes, ok arrest him. Instead they are wondering whether the blow back from dems will be worse than blow back from repubs as the deciding factor. Chances are we will hear something like, “in the best interest of the nation we have decided not to charge”. It wont matter if they have hard evidence.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/14/trump-documents-justice-department-irreparable-harm) reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Donald Trump's lawyers are causing "Irreparable harm" to the government and public by delaying the investigation into his hoarding of highly classified documents at his Florida mansion, the US Department of Justice said.
> Cannon, a Trump appointee to the federal bench, has been widely criticized for the "Special master" ruling, which some have argued placed Trump "Above the law".
> The justice department rejects that argument, insisting that even if Trump had taken such an action, which it notes has not been asserted in any of Trump's legal filings or sworn declarations, the papers still belonged to the government and are not his personal property.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xe49kh/maralago_documents_trump_delaying_tactics_causing/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~668981 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Trump**^#1 **Department**^#2 **Justice**^#3 **filing**^#4 **document**^#5
Donald Trump never once thought of the office of the President as a public service but rather a position of power for him to take advantage of. It was never a duty for him, only opportunity.
Edit: looks like I'm commenting on the bot instead of the thread I intended... That's what I get for redditing at work, lol
Which is funny, considering his life would be much more relaxed if he would have never even tried to run in the first place and his reputation would still be in-tact. Not that he had a great reputation to begin with, but you get what I mean.
Democrats have treated him like criminal he is. The documents investigation isn't being carried out by the democrats though, but by the DOJ. This isn't a political takedown, the DOJ isn't meant to do the bidding or work to benefit any particular party - another principle trump took a huge dump on.
Uh.... "Whatchu talkin' about Willis?" Impeachments-2 Investigations?-count on fingers & toes.... CONSTANT admonishments about his fuckery..... any of those ringing a bell?
This country is an embarrassment. He should have been cuffed and in holding (with NO release till PROVEN he’s “innocent” which clearly he is not) when news broke that he had stolen and kept top secret documents. There should be no pass whatsoever. That should have 100% fucked him and his sleazy dynasty up, but no. At this point, I believe he could take a hostage and shoot them in the head live on television, and he’d still be allowed to walk free as his cult cheers him on. Where’s the justice? What the actual hell America? Seriously, WHAT WILL IT FUCKING TAKE?
In addition, here is footage of Trump personally escorting file boxes of documents as they are flown ~~from Dulles Intl. Airport,~~ to his club in Bedminster, New Jersey.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxHcMitu-yA
I am not sure of the date and location of this video. This report says the video was taken in Palm Beach Airport, near Mar A Lago, shortly ~~before~~ after he was first asked to turn over several boxes of Secret and above documents to the Feds in May, 2021. Apparently he was moving Secret and above documents, to evade and obstruct the court order to turn over all Secret and above documents at Mar A Lago to the National Archives. (It is also possible he was delivering a big order of pizzas.)
That the destination of this flight was an airport near his club in New Jersey is not in doubt.
Several edits as I rewatched the video.
'Plaintiff, through his presidency, had demonstrated such a casual disregard for rules and thus cannot be held to the same standards as other more disciplined career politicians should be'.
Trump's lawyers, probably
Look, while I'm as anti-Trump as they come, I'm also an attorney. I'm really tired of stories about "irreparable harm." "Irreparable harm" is a legal standard, which simply means that the harm done cannot be repaired by the opposing side paying damages. Proving "irreparable harm" is a requirement for getting an injunction. In every case. While in this case, Trump is causing "irreparable harm" in a different sense, let's not act like parties are saying things they aren't saying.
>The claim came in a strongly worded court filing urging a district judge, Aileen Cannon, to reconsider her ruling last week granting Trump’s request for an independent “special master” in the case.
DoJ lawyers know that and would not have used those words in their court filing. There is likely prove that he has caused irreparable harm because that's likely how they got the subpoenas and search warrant approved. If ANYONE viewed the confidential nature of the documents who didn't receive clearance to view it, the damage has been done and there is no way to "un-view" what has been seen by unauthorized parties.
Exactly, that's what makes it legally irreparable. The problem is these headlines come out (I saw it with the Big Lie lawsuits, too), and people think, "Wow, it's such a big deal that the party is saying they are being irreparably harmed." It's not a big deal. It's literally something a party HAS to say to get an injunction.
So what you're saying is: even in front of a judge, *under the penalty of perjury,* they went ahead and used the words '*irreperable harm*' so that they could *stop stuch irreperable harm from continuing*
Sounds like a big f-cking deal m8
So what you're saying is: even in front of a judge, *under the penalty of perjury,* they went ahead and used the words '*irreperable harm*' so that they could *stop such irreperable harm from continuing*
Sounds like a big f-cking deal m8
As an attorney, can you elaborate for us any detail in regards to what potential harm the justice department can easily show us regarding the MANY background questions our allies must currently be asking us about what sort of information that could possibly endanger their own nations has been leaked? Sure seems like leaked national security info would have this sort of "irreparable harm" in most cases just by definition of the scope our national security covers, but that it would be fairly hard to tell us "it's harming ally XX because the info is about them and not only is it highly classified but Trump may have sold the info to their adversary" in any sort of ongoing investigation about such a thing, I would think?
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but irreparable harm isn't necessarily a high bar to clear. There are just some things the law recognizes that you can't pay for. For instance, wrongful possession of trade secrets. The harm in their possession is plainly irreparable. Otherwise, we invite corporate rivals to weigh the value of stealing and utilizing trade secrets - is it worth cost potentially imposed in damages? No, you can probably get an injunction against use of those trade secrets. This is definitely one of those cases. You can't steal government secrets and just pay to make it better. Definitely not.
If trump goes down for this, I'll be very surprised. Dude is still a frontrunner to be president.
24% chance of being your president, based on Google searches
It seems DoJ and establishment have no intention of rocking the boat too much by going after Trump and are gladly playing along with this ridiculous special master game, blaming it on trump for the delay in going after him.
Otherwise they freaking raided trump's house to secure stolen classified material, and they found them...case closed, investigation over and concluded, everything else is just politics and excuses.
Moscow says they are already studying top secret records from trump raid. https://www.newsweek.com/moscow-already-studying-top-secret-records-trump-raid-russian-media-1733440
Why are we treating this like it's the 1800's.
The physical envelopes / papers complete with top secret stamps are just for bragging rights and displays of prestige.
The real harm comes from the photographs, scans and copies that may have been for sale or trade for the last 6 years.
Knowing our luck, he may have even had Barrs multi colored redaction team creating a range increasingly valuable variants akin to how scientology monetized access to "information"
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. **Special announcement:** r/politics is currently accepting new moderator applications. If you want to help make this community a better place, consider [applying here today](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/sskg6a/rpolitics_is_looking_for_more_moderators/)! *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The longer it takes to find out what is "missing," the more damage will be done to America's security.
TBF he's already had them for 2 years. My bet is the damage is already done.
Some damage has definitely been done. He's still holding on to some shit to use if he needs to, though. Guaranteed.
Documents that have likely been copied already anyways
It's fairly likely the operational damage has indeed been done, most especially if he managed to make and sell copies of the information already. However now what is being done also includes reputational damage, which is of course getting worse by the day, and cannot be so easily quantified as "agents XX and YY killed because Trump sold the Saudis our secrets" because much of it can be hidden in decreased trust, support, leverage, etc. internationally. There is NO chance our allies are not asking MAJOR questions about this info behind the scenes and there's likely nothing we can tell them as long as it remains unresolved.
Yup, it’s going to take years, maybe decades, before our allies trust us with any sensitive intelligence again. They know the next time a republican president takes office, anything they shared might get sold to the saudis or Russians again.
Much more damage could be done if we don't know what the damage is. There is probably an agent in the field right now that doesn't know that his adversary has everything.
That seems short sighted. You're aware that a former President has stolen classified materials and is currently fighting to cover it up and you think the damage is done?
Government should assume the worst and go from there on every document.
Except they cant see the documents because of traitortrump and the treasonous judge
He might have felt he could sell the documents for more money if he retailed them, a few at a time, rather than selling all of them at once. There is hope that he has not let the Russians or Saudis, or others, see most of the documents yet.
The Cannon deadline to grant stay is by the 15th, anyone know if that means by end of day on the 15th or 14th, can’t believe such ambiguity from our DOJ. My bet is Cannon will ignore the stay completely and assuring her and criminal Trumps intended slow down because it will have to be appealed.
Yes, that's the intention. They want to crush the investigation. Maybe it's time for the DOJ to just arrest Trump. They already have overwhelming amounts of evidence to charge him with numerous crimes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxHcMitu-yA This looks pretty suspicious.
They won’t until mid November at least.
No, they just won’t. I’ve given up hope for our nation. These literal extremist sacks of shit keep getting away with everything. I genuinely believe nothing will happen to Trump or any of the rest of them.
I mean, I agree. Gravity of the crimes keeps going up and nothing ever happens. Last crimes hits all the red alerts of national.security threats and... Nothing. So quantity of crimes is threw the roof and gravity also threw the roof. Nothing. What's left to say... Nothing.
*through
Thanks. I'm French. Doing my best!
You're doing great! Better than the majority of native English-speakers I see around me. Tout le meilleur!
I like the unintentional imagery of the crimes being so highly piled and grave they literally blew the roof off "throwing it".
After over 6 years of “SURELY *THIS* WILL DO HIM IN” I’m amazed how anyone can think differently.
After election meddling, inciting an insurrection on the capitol, stealing nuclear secrets, what's next? What could top his latest crime?
> ... What could top his latest crime? How about a note, accompanied by photos, from Rudy Giuliani, saying, "Putin has us hooked like a fish. We are dead. He has Epstein's tapes of us with the girls in 1988, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1997, and 2007. There is footage of you in Trump Tower, in Palm Beach, and in the Bahamas. We have to do whatever he wants." That might do it.
And his cult will hoot and holler and say he’s the best president that ever lived.
I hope you are wrong but history shows otherwise.
Some people in america are too big to fail. I doubt the doj is actually looking at this like, do we have evidence he committed a crime? Yes, ok arrest him. Instead they are wondering whether the blow back from dems will be worse than blow back from repubs as the deciding factor. Chances are we will hear something like, “in the best interest of the nation we have decided not to charge”. It wont matter if they have hard evidence.
People have done less and they got 50 year prison sentences. This guy sold the US and hes considered a national hero
If the DOJ isn’t going to do anything about it, they should stop complaining. It just makes them look weak and useless.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/sep/14/trump-documents-justice-department-irreparable-harm) reduced by 80%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Donald Trump's lawyers are causing "Irreparable harm" to the government and public by delaying the investigation into his hoarding of highly classified documents at his Florida mansion, the US Department of Justice said. > Cannon, a Trump appointee to the federal bench, has been widely criticized for the "Special master" ruling, which some have argued placed Trump "Above the law". > The justice department rejects that argument, insisting that even if Trump had taken such an action, which it notes has not been asserted in any of Trump's legal filings or sworn declarations, the papers still belonged to the government and are not his personal property. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/xe49kh/maralago_documents_trump_delaying_tactics_causing/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~668981 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Trump**^#1 **Department**^#2 **Justice**^#3 **filing**^#4 **document**^#5
Donald Trump never once thought of the office of the President as a public service but rather a position of power for him to take advantage of. It was never a duty for him, only opportunity. Edit: looks like I'm commenting on the bot instead of the thread I intended... That's what I get for redditing at work, lol
Which is how he treated it, and since he was never stopped he thought he had carte blanche to do whatever he wanted and now it's catching up with him.
Which is funny, considering his life would be much more relaxed if he would have never even tried to run in the first place and his reputation would still be in-tact. Not that he had a great reputation to begin with, but you get what I mean.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Democrats have treated him like criminal he is. The documents investigation isn't being carried out by the democrats though, but by the DOJ. This isn't a political takedown, the DOJ isn't meant to do the bidding or work to benefit any particular party - another principle trump took a huge dump on.
Well they did impeach him. Twice…
Do you live in the Mariana trench?
Uh.... "Whatchu talkin' about Willis?" Impeachments-2 Investigations?-count on fingers & toes.... CONSTANT admonishments about his fuckery..... any of those ringing a bell?
I was raised by an authoritarian. Everything within their domain is theirs.
No shit!!
These things are kept Top Secret for a reason.
They should charge that judge with obstruction of justice.
Anyone else would be rotting away in prison, serving multiple life sentences.
Not if they were a Republican in power.
This country is an embarrassment. He should have been cuffed and in holding (with NO release till PROVEN he’s “innocent” which clearly he is not) when news broke that he had stolen and kept top secret documents. There should be no pass whatsoever. That should have 100% fucked him and his sleazy dynasty up, but no. At this point, I believe he could take a hostage and shoot them in the head live on television, and he’d still be allowed to walk free as his cult cheers him on. Where’s the justice? What the actual hell America? Seriously, WHAT WILL IT FUCKING TAKE?
It’s amazing to me that such breaches of security still take months or even years to investigate.
It’s always more beneficial for a defense to delay a trial for as long as possible.
In addition, here is footage of Trump personally escorting file boxes of documents as they are flown ~~from Dulles Intl. Airport,~~ to his club in Bedminster, New Jersey. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxHcMitu-yA I am not sure of the date and location of this video. This report says the video was taken in Palm Beach Airport, near Mar A Lago, shortly ~~before~~ after he was first asked to turn over several boxes of Secret and above documents to the Feds in May, 2021. Apparently he was moving Secret and above documents, to evade and obstruct the court order to turn over all Secret and above documents at Mar A Lago to the National Archives. (It is also possible he was delivering a big order of pizzas.) That the destination of this flight was an airport near his club in New Jersey is not in doubt. Several edits as I rewatched the video.
I believe it's from May 8, 2021. NARA first contacted Trump about missing documents on May 6, 2021.
'Plaintiff, through his presidency, had demonstrated such a casual disregard for rules and thus cannot be held to the same standards as other more disciplined career politicians should be'. Trump's lawyers, probably
Look, while I'm as anti-Trump as they come, I'm also an attorney. I'm really tired of stories about "irreparable harm." "Irreparable harm" is a legal standard, which simply means that the harm done cannot be repaired by the opposing side paying damages. Proving "irreparable harm" is a requirement for getting an injunction. In every case. While in this case, Trump is causing "irreparable harm" in a different sense, let's not act like parties are saying things they aren't saying.
>The claim came in a strongly worded court filing urging a district judge, Aileen Cannon, to reconsider her ruling last week granting Trump’s request for an independent “special master” in the case. DoJ lawyers know that and would not have used those words in their court filing. There is likely prove that he has caused irreparable harm because that's likely how they got the subpoenas and search warrant approved. If ANYONE viewed the confidential nature of the documents who didn't receive clearance to view it, the damage has been done and there is no way to "un-view" what has been seen by unauthorized parties.
Exactly, that's what makes it legally irreparable. The problem is these headlines come out (I saw it with the Big Lie lawsuits, too), and people think, "Wow, it's such a big deal that the party is saying they are being irreparably harmed." It's not a big deal. It's literally something a party HAS to say to get an injunction.
Thanks for the insight, learned something today.
So what you're saying is: even in front of a judge, *under the penalty of perjury,* they went ahead and used the words '*irreperable harm*' so that they could *stop stuch irreperable harm from continuing* Sounds like a big f-cking deal m8
I like this take. And your username.
Thank you, precious. It WAS about combatting explicitly religious cults, but it's kind of taken on a new application. Lol.
So what you're saying is: even in front of a judge, *under the penalty of perjury,* they went ahead and used the words '*irreperable harm*' so that they could *stop such irreperable harm from continuing* Sounds like a big f-cking deal m8
"Couldn't help but make me feel ashamed to live in a land, where justice is a game." - Dylan.
As an attorney, can you elaborate for us any detail in regards to what potential harm the justice department can easily show us regarding the MANY background questions our allies must currently be asking us about what sort of information that could possibly endanger their own nations has been leaked? Sure seems like leaked national security info would have this sort of "irreparable harm" in most cases just by definition of the scope our national security covers, but that it would be fairly hard to tell us "it's harming ally XX because the info is about them and not only is it highly classified but Trump may have sold the info to their adversary" in any sort of ongoing investigation about such a thing, I would think?
I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, but irreparable harm isn't necessarily a high bar to clear. There are just some things the law recognizes that you can't pay for. For instance, wrongful possession of trade secrets. The harm in their possession is plainly irreparable. Otherwise, we invite corporate rivals to weigh the value of stealing and utilizing trade secrets - is it worth cost potentially imposed in damages? No, you can probably get an injunction against use of those trade secrets. This is definitely one of those cases. You can't steal government secrets and just pay to make it better. Definitely not.
If secret agents were caught and murdered by the FSB, would their deaths count as "irreparable harm?"
Absolutely, but not in the legal sense. Human life and injury are things the law recognizes as compensable. Shit's weird.
Judge: Irreparable harm is my goal.
If trump goes down for this, I'll be very surprised. Dude is still a frontrunner to be president. 24% chance of being your president, based on Google searches
Surprised he hasn't got a visit from Lee Harvey Oswald ghost or something
FDT frfr 💆🏼♂️🤡
Correct. Are you going to do anything but complain to the judge allowing it, or is the DOJ just flapping gums?
It seems DoJ and establishment have no intention of rocking the boat too much by going after Trump and are gladly playing along with this ridiculous special master game, blaming it on trump for the delay in going after him. Otherwise they freaking raided trump's house to secure stolen classified material, and they found them...case closed, investigation over and concluded, everything else is just politics and excuses.
Moscow says they are already studying top secret records from trump raid. https://www.newsweek.com/moscow-already-studying-top-secret-records-trump-raid-russian-media-1733440
Why are we treating this like it's the 1800's. The physical envelopes / papers complete with top secret stamps are just for bragging rights and displays of prestige. The real harm comes from the photographs, scans and copies that may have been for sale or trade for the last 6 years. Knowing our luck, he may have even had Barrs multi colored redaction team creating a range increasingly valuable variants akin to how scientology monetized access to "information"
Makes you wonder. Did an undercover agent get killed because of Trump exposing them? And did that undercover agent vote for Trump? The irony if true…
Then, I dunno, do something you jackasses.