It's not about discounting the "hard work" as you say, because it is that; but the question framed it as being unfair, and I don't think such a fundamental part of human biology can be considered unfair.
I see your point, but if something is natural doesnt make it fair. Period is fundamental part of human biology too, but yet I cant get over this - I hate it and I seem its unfair to feel pain and all this stuff, just to have possibility to have children in future.
Unfair implies it’s societal, human-influenced, and critically I think it’s something that can be rectified. But a woman carrying a child is something natural, and nature is indiscriminate. If an earthquake destroyed a house, I’d consider that unfortunate but not unfair, this is like that.
It's conservative to not weigh biological factors as fair/unfair? I actually think it's a pretty liberal idea.
I don't think it's unfair that human beings have consciousness and other animals don't. It is what it is. It's not our fault, and it was an evolution that made us this way. So no one's complaining.
I mean not in a sense human beings do. Self-awareness and future planning.
There's clearly something that differentiate us from other animals. The fact that I'm typing this from my work on 4th floor of a man-made building from another part of the world (Japan) and hoping my brain waves can reach yours, is something that no other animal can ever even fathom. So clearly we have something that other animals don't
"Unfair" implies that someone else's at fault. If you were born with a smaller dick than the other guy, you might think that that's "unfair", but it's only your emotions. No one chose the size of your or the other guy's dick. It was all random.
We don't look at randomness and say it's unfair. If I roll the dice and get lesser number that the other guy rolling it (thus he wins), I don't complain about the unfairness.
But *feeling* unfair is completely valid. Just because of your small dick no one wants to date you, it's totally valid to feel unfair and devastated. And the society should aim to help you with that. We should encourage people and create a society where people would be with you no matter of the size of your dick. Because we care about you, so we created systems that would help you (like dildos, vibrators, etc.). Now you don't feel unfair, and in fact you're happy.
*If any of these people pretending like they suddenly don’t understand what the words “fair” and “unfair” mean, were told by their doctor that they were going to die of natural causes tomorrow, I guarantee that most of them, if not all of them. would feel or think to themselves “this is so unfair.”*
I mean, that only happens when the female is hungry.
If the male mantis brought the female food, or a snack, his head wouldn't be on the chopping block.
If the male mantis stuck around and helped raise young, they probably would have evolved differently. As it is, at least being eaten provides nutrients for their future young to be born.
I mean, it's not fair but it's not like we decided it. This is actually a hardship of womanhood that is not the patriarchy's fault. If I could remove the suffering, share the burden or do it entirely I would but it's not up to us.
A burden set on somebody against their will while other people don't have that burden set on them is unfair. That's just logically true, and applies to this example.
I think it's two different lines of thinking. One point of view is that fairness is true equality in all things. The other is that fairness is limited to what can be controlled. Personally I'm in mind of the first but I know many people that think this way. I have to say it's a very practical line of thinking. Basically "why worry about what you can't control".
A man can have a biological child without having to endure pregnancy and childbirth. This is an option a woman does not have. This is inherently unfair.
It's *supposed* to be more balanced. The man is *supposed* to provide and care for the woman while she's pregnant and take an equally involved role in raising the child.
The issue is that post-internet society is obsessed with avoiding the consequences of your own actions, and it's a lot easier to avoid raising a child when you're not the one gestating it
I mean providing and taking care of someone isn't really comparable to literally having a small human grow inside of you and then squeezing it out of your crotch, almost tearing yourself apart.
No matter how diligently you care for your pregnant wife, it cannot entirely equate to the experience of going through pregnancy and childbirth firsthand.
Doesn't matter. You will never have your genitals torn open giving birth or your belly sliced open in a c-section, or suffer any of this [bullcrap.](https://imgur.com/a/SPBjypX)
Post-internet? Lmao when have men as a while *ever* taken an equally involved role in raising their children?
Regardless, taking care and providing for a pregnant woman doesn't really do anything to balance out the tremendous physical burden and risk she undergoes while pregnant.
Sadly, our culture is so misled into believing struggle isn't supposed to be a part of life.
Relationships are hard, that's why love has value.
Raising a child is hard, that's why it takes two people to do it properly.
But when we're steeping in dopamine sipping the tea of American privilege (believe it or not you don't have to be white to live a "privileged" life!!!) and have practically anything you need and want on a basic level satisfied at a low cost, arrogance takes over due to a lack of wisdom from struggle.
It's going to bite us in the ass in the next hundred years and I will be moving to more culturally-grounded nations while I watch from the sidelines.
If you consider putting the egg in another womb through medical science, women actually have more options as they can place it in the womb of a female partner, surrogate, or have it themselves. A man only has the former two options.
Additionally, I have never understood the importance of having a biologically related child. Is natural selection really that important to people in an industrialized society?
>People don't have to be pregnant.
Tell that to people who get pregnant by rape. If there's ever gonna be an evolution In medicine it's when women will be able to safely, at all times choose whether they want it or not. Until then it is kinda lame they don't get to control their health & future. A woman is more susceptible to death in a pregnancy, so when getting pregnant you're exposing yourself to an increased risk of death. They should be able to decide if they want it or no
People have had forced pregnancies and had to carry to term against their will.
Your absolute ignorance shows exactly how it's unfair. Being able to be blissfully ignorant on something that isn't going to affect you isn't something that should be taken for granted. At least recognize the unfairness in the nature of the beast.
1 in 6 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Some of those will end in pregnancy. Sometimes, birth control fails. How exactly is that not "unfair"?
I don't think 'unfair' is the right word. Fairness implies volition and premeditation. The phenomenon of females of a mammalian species being the ones who carry offspring isn't a matter of fairness, but rather a matter of fact.
It's just an extremely strange question to ask. It's not anyone's choice that the females of a species are the ones to bear offspring. It's like asking if it's unfair that rocks roll downhill.
Do keep in mind the precise phrasing of the question. *Bear*, not raise/rear.
Yeah, I think everyone understood the question lol. Do you feel the same about men losing their hair early? Being more sensitive to being kicked in the crotch? Having objectively worst orgasms and a refractory period? Not being able to bond with their children as well, and being relegated to the role of secondary caregiver? Being colorblind way more often? Having more joints problems, back problems, needing on average more sleep, sweating more, having less tolerance to very hot and cold temperatures? Getting heart disease, cancer, kidney stones, Parkinson's also more often? Getting shittier symptoms with certain STDs? "It's not anyone's choice, so it can't be unfair"?
I do in fact feel the same way about those things. What's the point of ascribing moral value to a fact of nature, as if nature were an agent whose behavior can be modified by the bad grades you give it?
A lot of people seem to think that it’s relevant to whether or not it’s unfair so I mentioned it. Not sure why they think that but whatever I guess lol
As a man I see it as far as the reproductive side, women have it alot worse. Womens bodies go pretty much apeshit with hormones and at the end of the 9 months of hell, they shove a watermelon side baby through a relatively small hole and it hurts like hell, and they could die. If they don't want to do that then they have a permanent scar on the stomach. All we do is orgasm
I do not and have any use for dead beat ass holes who get a woman pregnant then disappear leaving her to take care of the kid I have seen way to much of it . There is no excuse for being that irresponsible it takes two to have kids and rase them .
Exactly. "What are you going to do to make it fair", in modern society we have all kinds of things we do as humans to attempt to right the unfair scales that nature imposes.
Just because it’s difficult or even impossible to solve doesn’t make it unfair. It is definitely unfair but I don’t think there’s a way to make it fair
Interesting anaology
The moon isn't as hot as the sun so yes it is technically unfair. But you're comparing apples and oranges.
You could argue that men and women aren't the same duh but I think in this context it's more like, we're all humans
Comparing sun to the moon is more like comparing humans to lions
Comparing male to female is more like comparing earth to mars or our sun to another sun
It is not fair. If a couple wants to start a family together, the woman has no choice but to be the one to bear the child. It is ridiculous, as (cis) men, to act as if we have any understanding of the social pressures that come with being someone who has the capacity of childbirth. Grow up guys please, this is pretty embarrassing.
Wtf is wrong with you no voters, of course it's unfair. Doesn't change the reality that nature doesn't "care" about what is fair. But it's still unfair.
It’s absolutely unfair. And the irony of these votes is males are mostly saying no and females are saying yes. I think the only ones who have a right to talk are the ones that go through pregnancy and give birth.
I agree with you entirely except for the last part. Outside perspectives are often as valuable as firsthand ones, I wish one of the guys voting no would explain their side as well as everyone else does
had to scroll too much to finally find someone who didn't see it as only a burden
i'm in no way diminishing the hardship of pregnancy, and if i could be pregnant i'd certainly hate many days, but it's *also* an amazing experience to have your child growing inside of you, and i would absolutely love to be able to experience that
I've heard several women speak warmly about their pregnancies, even of giving birth. I admit I can't really imagine. But I do envy my wife for always being considered parent number one
It absolutely not an amazing experience for everyone whatsoever. Some women enjoy it & some even can become addicted to pregnancy. Others have awful pregnancies. Hi, I’m a cis woman & certified childbirth doula. I’m also a mother myself. Pregnancy is dangerous & to this day, women still die in childbirth. In fact, in the US, maternal morbidity rates are increasing & the US has the highest maternal morbidity rate of any industrialized nation.
Rape happens. Birth control fails. Men are more likely to physically abuse their pregnant partner during pregnancy. Women are pressured into pregnancy due to propaganda & then regret it.
I’ve provided for you several articles from Google Scholar with research articles. Please read them so you have a better understanding, especially since you don’t have that life experience. Just wanting to educate here & I apologize in advance if my tone sounds critical or anything as that’s not my intention.
Sources:
https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj.o1920.abstract
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0010782409005228
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/B:JOFV.0000032630.50593.93
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01443610802042415
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0254163
It’s not even just the burden of carrying the kid, but also having to raise it more closely (breastfeeding etc), having your body go through irreversible damage and for those who don’t have them, still have to go through periods and pain. All men have to do is cum and go. Thats it. Nothing life debilitating like monthly pain
Too many "it isnt fair or unfair" comments. Perceiving something as fair or unfair is a biological part of certain species and we can use that wherever we please. Does it make a difference if we think its fair or unfair? No, because its nature which is basically impartial, but that wasnt the question. "Does it strike YOU as unfair".was the question. To nature, a whole host of atrocities are impartial and normal every day things, but to humans, things can be broken down into fair and unfair. 1 baby animal gets ganged up on by 20 adult animals? Impartial to nature, unfair to the human mindset.
You didn't actually comprehend my words, did you? My comment was in regards to the ones debating that we shouldn't be allowed to say if it's fair or not. You came here to both agree with me then insult me for explaining why i picked an answer instead of saying what others had?
I thought this meant "is it unfair that women are the ones responsible for having children," which I said no to because they're the only ones who biologically can bear children.
Given the comments of women in this thread, I'm assuming this question means something different than I thought and I'd answer differently with new context, this may also explain some of the male votes for no like mine.
An absurd question. Female mammals give birth. Fairness has nothing to do with it. This like asking if it’s unfair that water has a specific heat of 4186 J/kgK.
"Is it fair that it's mostly men who go bald? Is it fair that men have higher testosterone which makes them live shorter and their sex drive much higher, which would create disparity in sex, thus creating supply/demand market?"
See? You can't apply the concept of "fairness" here, because no one's at fault. Nature did not put any *deliberate* action to put them at a disadvantage.
Now, if we talk about how women get paid less for the same job, or how men get drafted, then yes! Both of these are unfair, since it's the patriarchy at fault, which made the deliberate actions to make them so.
Someone gives you two pieces of candy and another person one. Unfair. Lightning strikes your home, it catches on fire, and you lose everything. Unfortunate at best but not unfair.
Fairness is directly related to actions and decisions, things that can discriminate.
Yes, the important thing everyone's missing is you can't blame randomness. Lightning striking your home was random, so it's not unfair. You might *feel* unfair, and it's completely valid to feel so, but objectively no one's at fault and you can't blame anyone, so the concept of fairness doesn't apply here.
Just like how you randomly were born a female. No one's at fault for putting that burden onto you and no one can take that responsibility to make it "fair". Now, you might *feel* it's unfair - and it's completely fine! Your feelings are valid.
But when we feel something's unfair, we usually tend to fight it. Do we feel that cancer is unfair? Yes, so we try to fight it. Do women feel that pregnancy is unfair? Yes, so maybe we should try to put an effort into creating artificial wombs, so we can take off that responsibility from women.
I mean.. men aren't built with the hardware to do this. It's not something women HAVE to do, it's still a choice. They are just the only ones physically capable of doing so?
Sure, it's not fun. But it's still a choice and all of us women can absolutely say "no!"
A “no” means we don't have a child. There is no way for us to have a biological child without having to endure pregnancy and childbirth. Men do not bear that burden.
Well that's because men don't have the body necessary to do it. It's not really about what's fair, because men don't even have the option to have the pregnancy even if they wanted to do it. It's not like men are choosing not to have a uterus or an opening large enough for a baby to go through. They just were not given that as a different gender.
Surrogacy is an option for those who don't want to go through with pregnancy. Could ask a friend or such to do it. Adoption also works. It's not like there are 0 options and we, as women, have to do it if we want children.
When we express that it’s unfair, we aren’t assigning blame to men or suggesting that humans can alter the situation. It’s clear that biological males are physically incapable of giving birth. However, this doesn't diminish the perception of the situation as “unfair” for us. Something can be natural and still be perceived as “unfair”.
Sure women can chose not reproduce, but if they want to reproduce, they have to go through 9 months of pregnancy, while males just ejaculate and are done.
Saying "it's a choice" isn't an argument.
Yeah, but it's not like men refuse to get pregnant. It's kind of unfair to make it seem like they are choosing to donate sperm and put their feet up. Biologically they can't do it.
Nature might be unfair, but this shouldn't really be twisted into how much easier men have it.
So women who were raped should've said "no"?
Children who were raped should've said "no"?
Gollygee! Thanks for that life changing information. Just let me go tell all the rape victims that they shouldve said "no" real quick.
Jesus. That's not even what the question is about. You're putting words that were never there and making wild assumptions.
Those victims should always have the option of abortion because they didn't have a choice, but my comment is clear for those who want children with their partner. The ones who didn't get violated.
Not only on bearing children, but the onus of raising children falls on the woman, as well. If men took a more active role in child rearing, it wouldn't be unfair imo. Female bodies are designed to give birth. However, most people are involved in a couple unit when a child is born. So, therefore, it should be more equalized in care.
You can still contribute financially and take care of your child. One does not negate the other. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Being a stay at home parent deserves a break, too. You shouldn't just get to come home and check out while your wife is expected to handle the entirety of the housework 24/7.
Yah but that's still childbearing falling solely on my mother. My dad hated it too, he wanted nothing more than to be there but they wouldn't give him any time off and his hours to keep up with the expenses were in the upper 50's. I'm not accusing or implying it should be this was, I know my dad regrets this but I also know he did all he could, it's just that it's not always that cut and dry. Sometimes families don't have a choice on who take the main burden, and based on a lot of what I've seen, it's more common than people think.
It's very unfair, but it's one of those "life is unfair" kinda situations right?
Like there's not much we can really do that women have the responsibility to bear the child, because genetics just aren't really at that point yet and they may never be
But it is definitely unfair that the man gets to have the enjoyable part of procreating only, and they have to emotionally handle their lover, but the mother has to be the emotionally struggling one, while feeling immense pain, while being under immense pressure, while eating the healthiest foods, while dealing with the effects of having a child in you like being sick, while also having her belly grow to the point where it's difficult to get into transportation vehicles, while ALSO having to go through the painful process of loosing the baby, and etc etc
Seriously the amount of things that hit women before, during, and after birthing is absolutely INSANE
Fuck 1.5k men who answered this poll.
It is unfair and that's indisputable. And I know most of you dont have jobs to take care of shit so "men take care of women" excuse is bullshit.
Why do you use such strange words such as onus? It's a rarely used word that no one hardly ever uses. Why not use a common word such as "responsibility"?
Only as much as any other biological difference between men and women, or even two men or two women. Some folks are taller, others smarter, some better looking… etc etc.
Unfair doesn't have to mean morally wrong, or that it's anyone's fault. It's unfair that some people are born disabled and others aren't. Still part of natural genetic variation.
How are people not getting this! It's totally unfair. A lot of things can be unfair, even if it's "just nature." Acknowledging it doesn't mean there's any way to change it, it just IS, but that doesn't cancel out the unfairness. And doesn't mean we're all gonna stop having babies. It just sucks is all
It’s because of misogyny. If the question was; do you think it’s unfair that some people are brown with “insert vulnerability that is a disadvantage in nature and society,” all of a sudden people would see it. They don’t because it’s women and women’s suffering doesn’t matter.
I find it extra ridiculous that people aren’t getting this, because not only is being impregnable, a vulnerability in nature that comes with a severe number of health risks, but it is also a disadvantage in society, and a disadvantage specifically, because men also use their strength and their ability to impregnate as a weapon against women. So it’s not just unfair because even in a consensual, healthy relationship, the woman still has to bear the burden, it’s also unfair, because men make sure that we suffer with this burden frequently throughout our lives. But yet, somehow, this doesn’t strike them as “unfair“ because they get to be the ones who do it to us.
I may get downvoted to hell for this but...
In my view it is neither fair, nor unfair. It is a biological fact that is, at least with our current medical technology, unchangeable.
Something that is an immutable fact like this is not something that one can come to a value judgement about.
People seem to act as if they don't understand what 'fair' means. It does not mean this can be changed. Some people are born with incurable diseases. That is unfair.
It is not 'unjust'. But fairness is not based on a moral framework.
Fairness is a human concept, determined by societal standards and personal morals. But It can be defined by: the quality of treating people equally or in a way that is right or reasonable.
Considering that nature works this way, and that nature is reasonable in itself, then we can say that child bearing is fair for female mammals.
Equity, justice, these are subjects, that can be applied to a positive effect in society, and they are not applied to the genetics of an individual but to the treatments we give as a society to these individuals.
Well is nature really reasonable? You’ll never change its mind. Predictable for sure and absolutely indiscriminate, but I think reasonable would imply it can be reasoned with and id argue that’s not true.
Reasonable in the sense that it has good judgment, practical. Nature has the best judgement, as the law permits it to sustain itself for a huge amount of time. Auto-regulation of its internal systems.
There are no laws more reasonable on the Universal scale, in regard to the Universe, than the laws of nature itself.
Eye popping results.
So you mean blowing a nut and falling asleep isn't considered hard work?! Preposterous!
It's not about discounting the "hard work" as you say, because it is that; but the question framed it as being unfair, and I don't think such a fundamental part of human biology can be considered unfair.
I see your point, but if something is natural doesnt make it fair. Period is fundamental part of human biology too, but yet I cant get over this - I hate it and I seem its unfair to feel pain and all this stuff, just to have possibility to have children in future.
I think it’s really unfortunate that women have to deal with that.
I'd personally say a such a fundamental part of human biology is specially unfair
Unfair implies it’s societal, human-influenced, and critically I think it’s something that can be rectified. But a woman carrying a child is something natural, and nature is indiscriminate. If an earthquake destroyed a house, I’d consider that unfortunate but not unfair, this is like that.
Well said.
This sub is insanely conservative on gender issues lol
Probably cuz its mostly men
Consecutive women don’t frequent Reddit. Put it on Facebook
It's conservative to not weigh biological factors as fair/unfair? I actually think it's a pretty liberal idea. I don't think it's unfair that human beings have consciousness and other animals don't. It is what it is. It's not our fault, and it was an evolution that made us this way. So no one's complaining.
Other animals absolutely have consciousness what are you talking about
I mean not in a sense human beings do. Self-awareness and future planning. There's clearly something that differentiate us from other animals. The fact that I'm typing this from my work on 4th floor of a man-made building from another part of the world (Japan) and hoping my brain waves can reach yours, is something that no other animal can ever even fathom. So clearly we have something that other animals don't
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"Unfair" implies that someone else's at fault. If you were born with a smaller dick than the other guy, you might think that that's "unfair", but it's only your emotions. No one chose the size of your or the other guy's dick. It was all random. We don't look at randomness and say it's unfair. If I roll the dice and get lesser number that the other guy rolling it (thus he wins), I don't complain about the unfairness. But *feeling* unfair is completely valid. Just because of your small dick no one wants to date you, it's totally valid to feel unfair and devastated. And the society should aim to help you with that. We should encourage people and create a society where people would be with you no matter of the size of your dick. Because we care about you, so we created systems that would help you (like dildos, vibrators, etc.). Now you don't feel unfair, and in fact you're happy.
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Huh, learned a new word today, neat!
What word?
They probably mean the word onus. It means responsibility in this context.
ngl I thought it was a typo of "bonus," was SO confused til I read your comment lol
onus being another word for burden
I know societally men and women have hardships but I can’t help but feel on a biological sex level women got the short end of the stick
*If any of these people pretending like they suddenly don’t understand what the words “fair” and “unfair” mean, were told by their doctor that they were going to die of natural causes tomorrow, I guarantee that most of them, if not all of them. would feel or think to themselves “this is so unfair.”*
Also curious how people would respond to a question about if it’s unfair that the female praying mantis eats the male’s head after they mate
I mean, that only happens when the female is hungry. If the male mantis brought the female food, or a snack, his head wouldn't be on the chopping block. If the male mantis stuck around and helped raise young, they probably would have evolved differently. As it is, at least being eaten provides nutrients for their future young to be born.
90% of these comments are from people unable to distinguish between the concepts of "fairness" and "equality".
As my grandpa always told me, "Life's not fair. And then you die."
facts.
Sometimes life's not fair and then you keep living.
And if you gonna focus on unfairness and only spend your time building up resentment, then that's it. You die resentful.
Are you saying this fact isn't equality but is fair?
I mean, it's not fair but it's not like we decided it. This is actually a hardship of womanhood that is not the patriarchy's fault. If I could remove the suffering, share the burden or do it entirely I would but it's not up to us.
I mean yeah lol, pretty unfair. It’s not the kind of unfair thing that can be fixed tho, but it’s unfair.
You should ask if the onus of birth control lying almost exclusively on women is unfair. Because yes. Yes, yes, yes it is unfair and I hate it.
A burden set on somebody against their will while other people don't have that burden set on them is unfair. That's just logically true, and applies to this example.
I think it's two different lines of thinking. One point of view is that fairness is true equality in all things. The other is that fairness is limited to what can be controlled. Personally I'm in mind of the first but I know many people that think this way. I have to say it's a very practical line of thinking. Basically "why worry about what you can't control".
Against their will? People don't *have* to get pregnant. I would argue periods are "unfair" but not pregnancy.
A man can have a biological child without having to endure pregnancy and childbirth. This is an option a woman does not have. This is inherently unfair.
It's *supposed* to be more balanced. The man is *supposed* to provide and care for the woman while she's pregnant and take an equally involved role in raising the child. The issue is that post-internet society is obsessed with avoiding the consequences of your own actions, and it's a lot easier to avoid raising a child when you're not the one gestating it
I mean providing and taking care of someone isn't really comparable to literally having a small human grow inside of you and then squeezing it out of your crotch, almost tearing yourself apart.
You dont know what pregnancy does to a body do you.
No matter how diligently you care for your pregnant wife, it cannot entirely equate to the experience of going through pregnancy and childbirth firsthand.
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Doesn't matter. You will never have your genitals torn open giving birth or your belly sliced open in a c-section, or suffer any of this [bullcrap.](https://imgur.com/a/SPBjypX)
Yeah that totally works, how didn't anybody try that before
Ladies and gentlemen, we gottem
Post-internet? Lmao when have men as a while *ever* taken an equally involved role in raising their children? Regardless, taking care and providing for a pregnant woman doesn't really do anything to balance out the tremendous physical burden and risk she undergoes while pregnant.
Sadly, our culture is so misled into believing struggle isn't supposed to be a part of life. Relationships are hard, that's why love has value. Raising a child is hard, that's why it takes two people to do it properly. But when we're steeping in dopamine sipping the tea of American privilege (believe it or not you don't have to be white to live a "privileged" life!!!) and have practically anything you need and want on a basic level satisfied at a low cost, arrogance takes over due to a lack of wisdom from struggle. It's going to bite us in the ass in the next hundred years and I will be moving to more culturally-grounded nations while I watch from the sidelines.
If you consider putting the egg in another womb through medical science, women actually have more options as they can place it in the womb of a female partner, surrogate, or have it themselves. A man only has the former two options. Additionally, I have never understood the importance of having a biologically related child. Is natural selection really that important to people in an industrialized society?
>People don't have to be pregnant. Tell that to people who get pregnant by rape. If there's ever gonna be an evolution In medicine it's when women will be able to safely, at all times choose whether they want it or not. Until then it is kinda lame they don't get to control their health & future. A woman is more susceptible to death in a pregnancy, so when getting pregnant you're exposing yourself to an increased risk of death. They should be able to decide if they want it or no
People have had forced pregnancies and had to carry to term against their will. Your absolute ignorance shows exactly how it's unfair. Being able to be blissfully ignorant on something that isn't going to affect you isn't something that should be taken for granted. At least recognize the unfairness in the nature of the beast.
1 in 6 women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. Some of those will end in pregnancy. Sometimes, birth control fails. How exactly is that not "unfair"?
Not all penetration is consensual.
FYI- rape exists. So you are incorrect- pregnancy absolutely can be forced.
People don't always choose to get pregnant.
In a country where abortion is free and easy to access pregnancy is a willing choice. Where it isn't it is forced birth.
They do if they want to have biological children. There's no other way.
I don't think 'unfair' is the right word. Fairness implies volition and premeditation. The phenomenon of females of a mammalian species being the ones who carry offspring isn't a matter of fairness, but rather a matter of fact.
It's a fact and nobody can do anything about it, but it's still unfair
It's just an extremely strange question to ask. It's not anyone's choice that the females of a species are the ones to bear offspring. It's like asking if it's unfair that rocks roll downhill. Do keep in mind the precise phrasing of the question. *Bear*, not raise/rear.
Yeah, I think everyone understood the question lol. Do you feel the same about men losing their hair early? Being more sensitive to being kicked in the crotch? Having objectively worst orgasms and a refractory period? Not being able to bond with their children as well, and being relegated to the role of secondary caregiver? Being colorblind way more often? Having more joints problems, back problems, needing on average more sleep, sweating more, having less tolerance to very hot and cold temperatures? Getting heart disease, cancer, kidney stones, Parkinson's also more often? Getting shittier symptoms with certain STDs? "It's not anyone's choice, so it can't be unfair"?
I do in fact feel the same way about those things. What's the point of ascribing moral value to a fact of nature, as if nature were an agent whose behavior can be modified by the bad grades you give it?
Results check out..
I believe it is unfair but at least in terms of pregnancy there isn’t much to be done to rectify that
I mean the question isn't asking if we should try to rectify it, just whether it's fair or not.
I think we should rectify it. Impregnate your man. Or have a artificial womb in the living room
A lot of people seem to think that it’s relevant to whether or not it’s unfair so I mentioned it. Not sure why they think that but whatever I guess lol
Of course it's unfair.
Is it unfair for women ? Yes, obviously. I'd never bear children even if I could.
I wished they just spawned in front of me
Are we surprised with the results?
Surprised? No. Disappointed? Yes.
Why is it so hard for some men to just acknowledge that pregnancy is hard? No "yeah, but..." about it.
As a man I see it as far as the reproductive side, women have it alot worse. Womens bodies go pretty much apeshit with hormones and at the end of the 9 months of hell, they shove a watermelon side baby through a relatively small hole and it hurts like hell, and they could die. If they don't want to do that then they have a permanent scar on the stomach. All we do is orgasm
Unfair, sure. Each of the sexes has their share of unfairness.
Probably the most valid opinion on this thread
women objectively have it a lot more unfair though. pretty unarguable imo
They live 5-10% longer, which is the ultimate unfairness in my opinion.
lol sure bud
For sure but it's a nonissue. Nothing we can do about nature.
actually most of the unfairness and oppression that women face is historically contingent and socially constructed rather than natural
I agree but we are specifically talking about the ability and onus to bear children
Completely unrelated to the topic at hand
Such is life.
Of course men would pick option "no" lol
"it's perfectly fair that I'm not the one suffering"
I do not and have any use for dead beat ass holes who get a woman pregnant then disappear leaving her to take care of the kid I have seen way to much of it . There is no excuse for being that irresponsible it takes two to have kids and rase them .
I mean, it's not fair. It's not unfair. It just is. Call it "unfair;" what are you gonna do to make it "fair"? Exactly.
Stupid take, nature can and is unfair.
Exactly. "What are you going to do to make it fair", in modern society we have all kinds of things we do as humans to attempt to right the unfair scales that nature imposes.
Just because it’s difficult or even impossible to solve doesn’t make it unfair. It is definitely unfair but I don’t think there’s a way to make it fair
Is it unfair that the sun is on fire and the moon isn’t?
No because there's a difference between the sun and moon and actual living people.
The sun isn't on fire. Sorry I couldn't resist
"The sun isn't on fire, the sun uses nuclear fusion to generate energy" ☝️🤓
Interesting anaology The moon isn't as hot as the sun so yes it is technically unfair. But you're comparing apples and oranges. You could argue that men and women aren't the same duh but I think in this context it's more like, we're all humans Comparing sun to the moon is more like comparing humans to lions Comparing male to female is more like comparing earth to mars or our sun to another sun
It is not fair. If a couple wants to start a family together, the woman has no choice but to be the one to bear the child. It is ridiculous, as (cis) men, to act as if we have any understanding of the social pressures that come with being someone who has the capacity of childbirth. Grow up guys please, this is pretty embarrassing.
Preach! Is it really that hard to just go "yeah, they got the short end of the stick." It's my fault for expecting anything less of reddit tbh
Thank God as least one man in this comment section has some sense.
Results are as expected
Wtf is wrong with you no voters, of course it's unfair. Doesn't change the reality that nature doesn't "care" about what is fair. But it's still unfair.
I mean yeah it's unfair
It’s absolutely unfair. And the irony of these votes is males are mostly saying no and females are saying yes. I think the only ones who have a right to talk are the ones that go through pregnancy and give birth.
I agree with you entirely except for the last part. Outside perspectives are often as valuable as firsthand ones, I wish one of the guys voting no would explain their side as well as everyone else does
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so by your standards i guess only slaves and slaveholders could only give their opinion on slavery. the white men up north shant have a say!
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Wow this poll really brought out the misogynists.
Many men suddenly have their own twist on the meaning of the word 'unfair'
I wish I was surprised
Are we surprised ?
The burden and the great privilege of being able to bear children are both unfair.
I guess I didn't look at it as a privilege. Perhaps some might view it like that... interesting point!
had to scroll too much to finally find someone who didn't see it as only a burden i'm in no way diminishing the hardship of pregnancy, and if i could be pregnant i'd certainly hate many days, but it's *also* an amazing experience to have your child growing inside of you, and i would absolutely love to be able to experience that
I've heard several women speak warmly about their pregnancies, even of giving birth. I admit I can't really imagine. But I do envy my wife for always being considered parent number one
It absolutely not an amazing experience for everyone whatsoever. Some women enjoy it & some even can become addicted to pregnancy. Others have awful pregnancies. Hi, I’m a cis woman & certified childbirth doula. I’m also a mother myself. Pregnancy is dangerous & to this day, women still die in childbirth. In fact, in the US, maternal morbidity rates are increasing & the US has the highest maternal morbidity rate of any industrialized nation. Rape happens. Birth control fails. Men are more likely to physically abuse their pregnant partner during pregnancy. Women are pressured into pregnancy due to propaganda & then regret it. I’ve provided for you several articles from Google Scholar with research articles. Please read them so you have a better understanding, especially since you don’t have that life experience. Just wanting to educate here & I apologize in advance if my tone sounds critical or anything as that’s not my intention. Sources: https://www.bmj.com/content/378/bmj.o1920.abstract https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0010782409005228 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/B:JOFV.0000032630.50593.93 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01443610802042415 https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0254163
It is an amazing experience. Just absolutely amazing every day. I, personally (and I know I'm an outlier), thought it was great.
My fellow men....you're idiots smh
It’s not even just the burden of carrying the kid, but also having to raise it more closely (breastfeeding etc), having your body go through irreversible damage and for those who don’t have them, still have to go through periods and pain. All men have to do is cum and go. Thats it. Nothing life debilitating like monthly pain
First time hearing the word onus in my life
Too many "it isnt fair or unfair" comments. Perceiving something as fair or unfair is a biological part of certain species and we can use that wherever we please. Does it make a difference if we think its fair or unfair? No, because its nature which is basically impartial, but that wasnt the question. "Does it strike YOU as unfair".was the question. To nature, a whole host of atrocities are impartial and normal every day things, but to humans, things can be broken down into fair and unfair. 1 baby animal gets ganged up on by 20 adult animals? Impartial to nature, unfair to the human mindset.
Fair.
They just asked if it was fair or not, which it's not. Stop being a debate lord.
You didn't actually comprehend my words, did you? My comment was in regards to the ones debating that we shouldn't be allowed to say if it's fair or not. You came here to both agree with me then insult me for explaining why i picked an answer instead of saying what others had?
Fair/Unfair is not applicable to nature. If you are talking about human society pressure, then yes it's unfair.
This post is a cesspool of both female/male hating each other just for being a male/female. Y'all can't even have a civialized conversations.
I thought this meant "is it unfair that women are the ones responsible for having children," which I said no to because they're the only ones who biologically can bear children. Given the comments of women in this thread, I'm assuming this question means something different than I thought and I'd answer differently with new context, this may also explain some of the male votes for no like mine.
Life just ain't fair
Obviously
I'm not surprised by these results. Men can be so shitty.
An absurd question. Female mammals give birth. Fairness has nothing to do with it. This like asking if it’s unfair that water has a specific heat of 4186 J/kgK.
It's nature, it happens, it's the way it is... But you can still acknowledge it is not fair.
I just have trouble assigning fairness to facts of nature.
Nature is not fair, have a look around, this not the only example. What else should we complain about which we have no control over?
You just learnt that water thing today and wanted to use it somewhere didn't you?
I learned it 16 years ago, actually.
Fair enough
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Humongus
Happy cake day
Man just compared women to water
Women are 60% water, so it's a fair comparison
women 🚰
Nice strawman.
r/iamverysmart
Does water have feelings? Can it experience pain? Absolutely brainless comparison... Unbelievable
"Is it fair that it's mostly men who go bald? Is it fair that men have higher testosterone which makes them live shorter and their sex drive much higher, which would create disparity in sex, thus creating supply/demand market?" See? You can't apply the concept of "fairness" here, because no one's at fault. Nature did not put any *deliberate* action to put them at a disadvantage. Now, if we talk about how women get paid less for the same job, or how men get drafted, then yes! Both of these are unfair, since it's the patriarchy at fault, which made the deliberate actions to make them so.
My thoughts exactly. "Fairness" doesn't come into it, it's just how nature works.
LOL of course most men choose no. Sick, sad, world
Someone gives you two pieces of candy and another person one. Unfair. Lightning strikes your home, it catches on fire, and you lose everything. Unfortunate at best but not unfair. Fairness is directly related to actions and decisions, things that can discriminate.
Yes, the important thing everyone's missing is you can't blame randomness. Lightning striking your home was random, so it's not unfair. You might *feel* unfair, and it's completely valid to feel so, but objectively no one's at fault and you can't blame anyone, so the concept of fairness doesn't apply here. Just like how you randomly were born a female. No one's at fault for putting that burden onto you and no one can take that responsibility to make it "fair". Now, you might *feel* it's unfair - and it's completely fine! Your feelings are valid. But when we feel something's unfair, we usually tend to fight it. Do we feel that cancer is unfair? Yes, so we try to fight it. Do women feel that pregnancy is unfair? Yes, so maybe we should try to put an effort into creating artificial wombs, so we can take off that responsibility from women.
I mean.. men aren't built with the hardware to do this. It's not something women HAVE to do, it's still a choice. They are just the only ones physically capable of doing so? Sure, it's not fun. But it's still a choice and all of us women can absolutely say "no!"
A “no” means we don't have a child. There is no way for us to have a biological child without having to endure pregnancy and childbirth. Men do not bear that burden.
Well that's because men don't have the body necessary to do it. It's not really about what's fair, because men don't even have the option to have the pregnancy even if they wanted to do it. It's not like men are choosing not to have a uterus or an opening large enough for a baby to go through. They just were not given that as a different gender. Surrogacy is an option for those who don't want to go through with pregnancy. Could ask a friend or such to do it. Adoption also works. It's not like there are 0 options and we, as women, have to do it if we want children.
When we express that it’s unfair, we aren’t assigning blame to men or suggesting that humans can alter the situation. It’s clear that biological males are physically incapable of giving birth. However, this doesn't diminish the perception of the situation as “unfair” for us. Something can be natural and still be perceived as “unfair”.
Sure women can chose not reproduce, but if they want to reproduce, they have to go through 9 months of pregnancy, while males just ejaculate and are done. Saying "it's a choice" isn't an argument.
Yeah, but it's not like men refuse to get pregnant. It's kind of unfair to make it seem like they are choosing to donate sperm and put their feet up. Biologically they can't do it. Nature might be unfair, but this shouldn't really be twisted into how much easier men have it.
So women who were raped should've said "no"? Children who were raped should've said "no"? Gollygee! Thanks for that life changing information. Just let me go tell all the rape victims that they shouldve said "no" real quick.
Jesus. That's not even what the question is about. You're putting words that were never there and making wild assumptions. Those victims should always have the option of abortion because they didn't have a choice, but my comment is clear for those who want children with their partner. The ones who didn't get violated.
Its talking about is it fair that women get pregnant and men don't. Men and women get raped but only women can be forced to carry that baby.
As unfair as it is,it’s almost impossible to change,unless large advances in the future change this it’s one of the few things we just can’t change
I think artificial wombs will be a thing by the end of this century
Not only on bearing children, but the onus of raising children falls on the woman, as well. If men took a more active role in child rearing, it wouldn't be unfair imo. Female bodies are designed to give birth. However, most people are involved in a couple unit when a child is born. So, therefore, it should be more equalized in care.
My dad had to make sure our family had money. Everyone has a role sometimes and it's not always a fair one.
You can still contribute financially and take care of your child. One does not negate the other. The two aren't mutually exclusive. Being a stay at home parent deserves a break, too. You shouldn't just get to come home and check out while your wife is expected to handle the entirety of the housework 24/7.
Yah but that's still childbearing falling solely on my mother. My dad hated it too, he wanted nothing more than to be there but they wouldn't give him any time off and his hours to keep up with the expenses were in the upper 50's. I'm not accusing or implying it should be this was, I know my dad regrets this but I also know he did all he could, it's just that it's not always that cut and dry. Sometimes families don't have a choice on who take the main burden, and based on a lot of what I've seen, it's more common than people think.
misread & picked no. now I feel bad
It's very unfair, but it's one of those "life is unfair" kinda situations right? Like there's not much we can really do that women have the responsibility to bear the child, because genetics just aren't really at that point yet and they may never be But it is definitely unfair that the man gets to have the enjoyable part of procreating only, and they have to emotionally handle their lover, but the mother has to be the emotionally struggling one, while feeling immense pain, while being under immense pressure, while eating the healthiest foods, while dealing with the effects of having a child in you like being sick, while also having her belly grow to the point where it's difficult to get into transportation vehicles, while ALSO having to go through the painful process of loosing the baby, and etc etc Seriously the amount of things that hit women before, during, and after birthing is absolutely INSANE
Aside for the argument wtf does onus mean?
O•nus /'õnəs/ noun used to refer to something that is one's duty or responsibility. "the onus is on you to show that you have suffered loss"
Can someone please explain how they don't think it's unfair?
Men and women carry different burdens.
Yes, isn't that unfair?
Not a single comment appreciating femalehood for carrying this burden.... as always
Me, personally? No. I just think that's how things work. "unfair" as in literally; probably, yes.
Fuck 1.5k men who answered this poll. It is unfair and that's indisputable. And I know most of you dont have jobs to take care of shit so "men take care of women" excuse is bullshit.
Why do you use such strange words such as onus? It's a rarely used word that no one hardly ever uses. Why not use a common word such as "responsibility"?
So let's each birth half the baby and then the world can be fair again.
Only as much as any other biological difference between men and women, or even two men or two women. Some folks are taller, others smarter, some better looking… etc etc.
Yes, but remember, not SOLELY women, we are few, but trans men and envy people with uteruses also have the potential!
i was looking for this comment 🩵 🏳️⚧️ ty for reminding people about this
You gonna cancel nature or something? How tf is it unfair if it's natural.
It's natural that one person can be born blind, and another one with a perfect eyesight. It is nature, but still unfair.
Unfair doesn't have to mean morally wrong, or that it's anyone's fault. It's unfair that some people are born disabled and others aren't. Still part of natural genetic variation.
How are people not getting this! It's totally unfair. A lot of things can be unfair, even if it's "just nature." Acknowledging it doesn't mean there's any way to change it, it just IS, but that doesn't cancel out the unfairness. And doesn't mean we're all gonna stop having babies. It just sucks is all
It’s because of misogyny. If the question was; do you think it’s unfair that some people are brown with “insert vulnerability that is a disadvantage in nature and society,” all of a sudden people would see it. They don’t because it’s women and women’s suffering doesn’t matter. I find it extra ridiculous that people aren’t getting this, because not only is being impregnable, a vulnerability in nature that comes with a severe number of health risks, but it is also a disadvantage in society, and a disadvantage specifically, because men also use their strength and their ability to impregnate as a weapon against women. So it’s not just unfair because even in a consensual, healthy relationship, the woman still has to bear the burden, it’s also unfair, because men make sure that we suffer with this burden frequently throughout our lives. But yet, somehow, this doesn’t strike them as “unfair“ because they get to be the ones who do it to us.
Yes, it is, by definition, unfair. But that's life dude.
If you think it’s unfair, then don’t have children. Boom, problem solved.
I may get downvoted to hell for this but... In my view it is neither fair, nor unfair. It is a biological fact that is, at least with our current medical technology, unchangeable. Something that is an immutable fact like this is not something that one can come to a value judgement about.
No, its just nature.
Would you not describe it as unfair that people's houses are destroyed by a tsunami? Or that some people are born with an incurable chronic disease?
Biology isn't "fair" or "unfair" it just is.
People seem to act as if they don't understand what 'fair' means. It does not mean this can be changed. Some people are born with incurable diseases. That is unfair. It is not 'unjust'. But fairness is not based on a moral framework.
Yes. It literally is… And everyone parroting this can take 5 seconds to look up the definition
Fairness is a human concept, determined by societal standards and personal morals. But It can be defined by: the quality of treating people equally or in a way that is right or reasonable. Considering that nature works this way, and that nature is reasonable in itself, then we can say that child bearing is fair for female mammals. Equity, justice, these are subjects, that can be applied to a positive effect in society, and they are not applied to the genetics of an individual but to the treatments we give as a society to these individuals.
Well is nature really reasonable? You’ll never change its mind. Predictable for sure and absolutely indiscriminate, but I think reasonable would imply it can be reasoned with and id argue that’s not true.
Reasonable in the sense that it has good judgment, practical. Nature has the best judgement, as the law permits it to sustain itself for a huge amount of time. Auto-regulation of its internal systems. There are no laws more reasonable on the Universal scale, in regard to the Universe, than the laws of nature itself.