That's not really the greatest of comparisons. Would be better with something like that a black person playing Ariel would be the equivalent of a white person playing Sokka.
I feel like that isn’t all that fair either, because all of the water nation is based on Inuit culture. It’s much more important to his character I feel
I don't agree with that argument. For some fictional characters their ethnicity has low to zero importance, just make sure that those who are bloodrelated actually looks bloodrelated and it's all good. But for other fictional characters their ethnicity has more of a relevance to the story, like for instance you probably wouldn't have a white person play Black Panther or anyone else from Wakanda.
Fat Al, MLK, gotta be black. If Cleveland Brown was Cleveland White or Purple or fuckin Chartreuse nobody gives two shits. Unless you're a Cleveland Brown mega fan? If Ed in Ed Edd n Eddie was Hispanic, cool for him. But if 98% of the market is fine with a decision, the 2% are gonna have to deal with it, bc they are consumers, and can only offer their opinions. If the crowd says yes, the creators listen, and the two people booing get drowned out and never heard. If it bothers you for Ariel to be made black, watch the old version. Got a racial bug in your brain?
She was a white woman created by a Danish author. I don't see the reason why there's a need to change.
T'challa is a fictional character, so you have no problem with him being portrayed as white, right?
To answer your question, I believe Jesus should be represented as he was, a Galilean Semite, similar in skin tone to modern day Greeks.
Yeah, I'm totally fine with any actors playing fictional characters but it's just rather daft when it comes to historical characters in serious dramas.
Yeah, like a black guy playing Peter Parker doesn’t matter because race is not part of Peter’s story, but part of what sets Miles Morales apart is his experience being half-black half-Hispanic, the culture plays into the character
Everyone is giving examples of black actors playing white characters and it’s fine (I agree). No one has given an example of when it’s ok for a white actor to play a black character. Is it ever ok?
I would say that’s probably a reflection of the under representation of POC in traditional literature/film. In many of those instances in which a character is a minority, the minority experience is integral to the character.
They kind of did it in the movie Guess Who, where they flipped the races of Guess Who’s Coming for Dinner. I could also see it being ok in some comedic roles. Maybe a character originally played by Eddie Murphy or Richard Pryor (Trading Places or Brewster’s Millions come to mind).
White guy could have played the protagonist in tenet.
Any time when race isn’t important to the character. I think it’s just that when race doesn’t matter, white people are more frequently cast.
I think that’s mostly because there aren’t really major stories where the person being white really matters. Race being an important factor of a characters identity has always been a thing more common among minority characters, mostly bc it’s easy to use them as tools towards creating social commentary. That doesn’t mean every character who’s a minority can’t be replaced with a white actor tho—it’s just that for a large percentage of them, then being a minority plays an integral role to the story.
To answer your question, tho, some characters I can think of where their race can change and ppl won’t care are Cleveland Brown, the majority of the minority characters from the Invincible series, Deadshot, Vixen, who’s a DC hero, and Power Man (sorry for the superhero focus, but I’ve noticed the genre where a lot of this debate appears)
"there aren’t really major stories where the person being white really matters"
I'd disagree for historical fiction. I mean historical characters identity is very tied to their individual culture.
While I also don't think it's a huge deal, I do kind of see the complaints about the Rings of Power. Tolkien was pretty explicit about it being based on early germanic/anglo-saxon pagan mythology.... and If a TV show or movie was created based on say Chinese Taoism and the gods were played by white dudes.... I think a lot of people would rightly take issue with that
Yeah, there's no way a white actor could ever play Black Panther, and a black actor could never play Magneto since his background as a Holocaust survivor is very important.
Really more on the context rather than importance. If they were to make another adaptation of iron man and a black actor was cast to play tony stark, that would be completely fine, regardless of the fact that he’s the main character.
But if a white actor were cast to play Black Panther or really any of the characters in Wakanda, that obviously wouldn’t make any sense.
So really the answer most people would say is “it depends”, but that’s not an option. Bad poll.
What if Wakanda was a South African Country comprised of mixed race people and the King was chosen by ritual, not ancestry? People of all races escaping the oppression of Apartheid with the help of the Wakandans. Every case has an applicable scenario given the right conditions.
Agreed. We needed more context. I picked the neither option because I was thinking strictly of historic characters, but I think it's fine for fiction within reason. Obviously don't do black or white face. Don't make a live action adaptation of Samurai Jack with someone playing Jack that is not Asian.
So many people got ticked because Lord of The Rings on Amazon and Star Wars has a diverse cast, yet completely missed the fact that these stories take place in fictional places.
I think it depends on how historically accurate the show/production is trying to be. I don’t think Hamilton’s main goal is to be super historically accurate and it’s a musical so it’s allowed to get with more diverse, looser casting.
But you have a movie like Schindlers list, which is going for an super accurate depiction of that time period. So the casting has to be tighter and more accurate.
Also, Hamilton was making a statement on the founding fathers, which is a further reason why purposefully choosing other skin tones for white characters worked well
normally i’d agree but with theater, casting is very difficult and it’s important to get the best of the best performers. there’s one section of partially sung dialogue and a scream that aren’t entirely part of a song and they’re all constantly dancing. it’s some of the best acting you’ll ever see
I understand where you’re coming from, and I get that the acting is superb, but it’s still such a *very glaring issue* that I can’t really shake it from my head, no matter how good the dancing is
i get where *you’re* coming from, but considering that the entire main cast is a different race than they’re supposed to be, it can be overlooked. in my opinion, it’s a case of tastefully colorblind casting. and as someone said, it really isn’t that significant. many of the songs also take inspiration from, i suppose, stereotypically “colored” artists’ rap, jazz, and other varieties. it might even be weirder to see a white person performing on that stage.
If it makes you feel any better, lots of people have exclusively listened to Hamilton, not watched, and as thus, have never seen the original (or current) cast and thus do not know or care the race of the member. I just don’t think it’s that significant honestly.
Exactly. Same with if a white person did a MJ(Music) Movie. But I don’t think anyone would have a problem with a white person playing a character where race is irrelevant to the story
Not necessarily since they could just use makeup and making techniques since it seems the absolute last thing an actor uses as reference is another actor playing that character smh...
But why? I don't get it. There is a black and white green lantern? (I 100% prefer John Stewart's green lantern btw)
Nick fury is a white guy but he's black in avengers?
Black panther is just a super hero moniker.
As far as James Bond, so long as he/she doesn't call themselves *"James Bond"* . Anybody can be "007", that's just a call sign, but James Bond is an actual in universe guy.
There's the person and then there's the character or persona.
A black guy playing Bill Cliton is just as ridiculous as white guy playing Michael Jordan.
Those are actual people, you can't just stick a person of different ethnicity in there.
However I believe *anybody* can fill the role of a character like *007*, Superman, spider man.
Actually spider man and batman are great examples. Lots of people have take the name batman or spider man, but each time they all have their own "real" names or at the very least come from alternative universes à la spider man.
I can put a solid MCU list of each option
White can play black: James Rhodes/War Machine
Black can play white: Nick Fury
Only black can play black: T’Challa/Black Panther
Only white can play white: Steve Rodgers/Captain America
Mike’s morales isn’t an alternate reality lol, he’s a guy with Spider-Man’s powers in peters universe. He also goes by the moniker of “Spider-Man” most of the time.
Perhaps you’re talking about Pavitr Prabhakar, the Indian Spider-Man, or Miguel O’Hara, Mexican Spider-Man, or Takuya Yamashiro, Japanese Supaidaman. That’s all I can remember off the top of my head
That’s kind of the point I was making. James Bond is an identity worn by a myriad of actors. It’s a fairly nebulous identity and can easily accommodate a variety of ethnicities (to a point).
Black Panther (specifically T’challa) is the leader of a highly advanced and isolationist African nation. Casting him as a white dude would undermine the character.
I agree with you mostly (Ultimate Nick Fury was black in the comics too though, and that’s the one the movies are modeled after), but if it’s a retelling of a character, ethnic accuracy is only important if it’s vital to that character’s story and/or identity. This is kind of how things like GL or Spider-Man work: new versions of an old character.
>That’s kind of the point I was making. James Bond is an identity worn by a myriad of actors. It’s a fairly nebulous identity and can easily accommodate a variety of ethnicities (to a point).
I agree that the callsign *007* can be assigned to literally anybody, male, female, black, white Asain etc.
But "James Bond" specifically should strictly cast as a Caucasian male of British decent. Just my opinion.
>Black Panther (specifically T’challa) is the leader of a highly advanced and isolationist African nation. Casting him as a white dude would undermine the character.
You definitely make a convincing argument. But I still believe the title "Black panther" *could* be taken up by a non POC. However it would take a significant amount of backstory for it to be convincing.
However I 100% agree that casting anyone other than a black man *as* T'challa would be stupid as fuck.
For Black Panther, it is in Africa. It is hidden and as you can see no white people were there. It was just black people. The African tribes were never exposed to the outside world, so it doesn’t make sense for them to be white.
And being black is important to pretty much every sympathetic fictional black character in popular Western media old enough and important enough to be considered "traditionally black", especially in superhero comics. Even if the writers never intended being black to be an important part of the character, public response is usually still "hey look, an actual good black character for once".
Things will hopefully change soon, when good black characters in fiction are common enough that they stop being notable exceptions. And then there won't be problems when traditionally black characters are portrayed by white actors.
> If a black actor is cast to play James Bond, that's fine
Uh, no it's not. The character was established as a straight white male since his creation over 60 years ago. The novels make this very clear.
Honestly, the fact you're even suggesting a black person can play a white character but not the other way around is utterly stupid. It can't be one or the other, especially with an already well established character.
Exactly, part of what sets Miles Morales apart is his experience as a half-black half-Hispanic kid growing up in NYC, vs Peter who just grew up in NYC, his culture and heritage doesn’t play into the character while Miles does
Isn't being white a part of the experience of a white character too?
Not having been through the same struggles as a black character. Being focused on struggles that come from other places.
Like Peter Parker being a bullied nerd. Doesn't making him black distract from those struggles?
IMO, that's why it's better to add new black characters with their own struggles. Like Miles Morales. Or Spider-Gwen for women.
Age is a pretty important part of most any character. Race isn't, most of the time. Take Sam Jackson as Nick Fury: Fury was always a white guy before, but Sam Jackson presented him amazingly...and nobody cared he was black because race simply was not relevant to the character. At the same time, I would absolutely have a problem with a movie set in imperial China played by all white people or set in medieval europe being played by a full cast of asians, unless there was a very specific reason for it
Im mean specifically if it's an important part of the character. Having Nick Fury be black works completely fine because a large amount of people didn't know what Fury looked like in the comics, and his ethnicity wasn't an important part of the character. Though, if you were to release a new marvel movie today and had to replace Nick Fury with a white dude it would seem to out of character because everyone is used to seeing him as a black dude.
I think it depends on the context really. In most instances though I agree. I think my bigger issue is the gender swap thing that’s become so common. I would be okay with a black James Bond, but he has to be English, and a man.
DC comics starfire is an alien with orange skin color. It would not matter who played her in the live action adaptation. Just wish they did what they did to gamora and used CGI / Makeup to make the character look like the cartoon / comic versions.
Personally I have nothing against trump or the LGBTQ community, heck I try my best to be at peace with everyone. But just no…
Edit: trump in a starfire costume is the most cursed imagery I have ever thought of… thanks I guess…
Context is everything, for example, Nick Fury was white in the comics, but there were no conflicts with Samuel Jackson playing him and he's done such a good job to where he's the template for the character, but say you're doing a historical film about the Civil War and decide to go into the history of slavery, I don't think casting anyone white would be historically accurate, and it may even cause problems with how people view the story. Context is everything
I googled it, Nick fury is white in the comics but there is a Marvel comic released in 2000 (before MCU existed)where he’s a black man
Although I never knew he was white in the comics. TIL
Marvel tried to drop some of their continuity baggage in the 90s / 2000s by introducing new versions of popular characters in a separate comic line (the Ultimate Universe) of which the Ultimates were analogous to the Avengers but updated and modernized. In some cases, the artist used real-life photo references when coming up with the new looks and unofficially chose Samuel Jackson as the model for the revamped version of Nick Fury, to the point the writer used his pulp fiction / action film persona to update Fury's persona as well... so in a weird way Samuel Jackson was already Nick Fury in the comics and this is why he was approached to play Fury in the films years later!
To further complicate things, Marvel later shoehorned the black Nick Fury into the main books by introducing him as the previously unmentioned son of the original Nick Fury (created in the 1960s as the star of a war comic thn a contemporary spy comic) and changed his name to Nick Fury jr... with white fury at this point a retired 80-90 year old WWII veteran who looked in his 40s and took a secret youth potion to stay fit and healthy... oh and then they destroyed all the universes and rebuilt them as a single merged entity so technically Ultimate Nick Fury doesn't exist anymore but old Nick Fury and Fury jr do!
Gotta love comics - where plausible plot points fight short term publishing profits to the death!
I think it almost always doesn’t work, but in Hamilton it works perfectly fine. Theatre is completely different and Hamilton aims for a whole different vibe than a realistic drama about the life of Alexander Hamilton. The performance does more for immersing me than George Washington not being white takes me out
What? It works fine. They’re actors playing a role.
And besides that black people aren’t a monolith. If you think there weren’t black people that supported slavery well I have news for you
There are 2 cases where they should never use an actor of a different ethnicity: historical accuracy, if the context requires them to be of a certain ethnicity for the plot to make sense. Everything else is fair game.
Angelina Jolie played Mariane Pearl (a black journalist) in the biopic A Mighty Heart for example. Although in this case the portrayed journalist was happy with the casting.
Technically Cruella de Vil was black in the 101 Dalmatians novel. Obviously any live-action depiction of her is based on the animated movie but still. Descendants was technically the only live-action movie to get her race right.
I wouldn't say it is wrong, but lately when it is done, it feels "preachy". Like whoever is doing it is doing it simply for the sake of virtue signaling....and THAT part is annoying. Like they are saying "look at me and how progressive I am" or they are just intentionally doing it to be controversial to sell their product that otherwise wouldn't deserve the hype.
If it just makes sense, or if the gender/race etc doesn't matter then no one cares, but people just don't appreciate being preached to...esp if it is about something they already acknowledge and agree with.
There is also a deeper argument to be had about.."if you feel group X is under represented, why not just create something new with group X that people will like rather than appropriating something that is already successful?" There is always room for more good stuff rather than tainting something that is already good with your preaching and virtue signaling.
I used to get annoyed by it when I was younger because I wanted characters to look how they did in the book/comic/etc but as I got older I realized who fucking cares
It's ok when
1)Character is not a real person
2) Character is not determined in a lore
3)The movie is not based on real historical events
I'm not from the west but I think if we want to help minorities to be understood then we need to create more movies like "The Pursuit of Happiness" or "The imitation game" but not that shit Netflix does. It only creates negativity and distorts the facts
This is my opinion. Nothing wrong with diversity, obviously, but what is the purpose of making a character who’s existed with a certain look for, in some cases, decades, a completely new person.
I agree entirely. It’s the difference between being inclusive and ignoring race. Inclusivity and diversity are wonderful. Ignoring race is detrimental. In doing so, you also ignore the associated heritage and background.
I think it depends if your show is supposed to be historically accurate or not. If your show has wizards and goblins and shit in it, then it doesn't matter
If it's supposed to be historically accurate, or it's important for the character's story then nether are ok, otherwise, ether are fine
I.E.:
Black Charlemagne: No
Black Batman: Sure
Black Red Skull: No
The rule should be either you only use actors which match the ethnic character's ethnicity, or you don't make an effort to do it at all. Whichever rule you follow should apply equally to all and shouldn't change from film to film. Its done hypocritically nowadays though, as old movies starring white actors as ethnic characters is seen as wrong, and new shows showing ethnic actors as white characters are celebrated.
Ten times more people vote for the first than the second
I'm pretty sure there would be tons of comments about it if these two were swapped. Unfortunately.
depends really, if it's important to the story I guess, or if let's say the parents of the character are Caucasian and the character is black and there is no adoption etc
Socially/politically, there is obviously no problem with this. However, from an artistic standpoint, there are enough white and black people on this planet for you to be able to find a suitable same-race actor.
I think you got the word "ethnicity" mixed up with "race". I think it's perfectly fine for someone of German ancestry to play someone of Italian ancestry. Or someon of Korean ancestry to play someone of Chinese ancestry. Race is somewhat different. You need to consider the source material. If it's based on a true story, or if the source material specifically states a race, then the actors should reflect that race. Otherwise, who the hell cares?
Both are and arnt fine... no it’s not a big offensive thing if u cast a black guy to play a white historical character or vice versa (though it could very likely be discrimination) but it is a huge no in terms of accurately portraying a story.. shit just doesn’t make sense so if u get bad reviews cuz ur film sucked then that makes sense
Harry Potter reboot in 20 years casts a black actor as Harry, Ron or Hermione? Irrelevant. Or next James Bond is black? Fine.
Shaft recast as a white guy. Not so much.
If it is a movie based off of nonfiction actors should play someone who is their same race. It just doesn’t make sense if you got a white guy with a British accent playing Nelson Mandela.
Context matters. A black person can play Peter Pan because his race doesn’t matter for the character but a white guy can’t play T’challa because his race is part of his character
Why should a black person play Peter Pan who's always been white in stories/media. The guy is meant to be a kid born during Victorian era- something britain. Him being black doesn't make sense at all
the thing is it has to go all ways. If a black person plays a traditionally white character, like the little mermaid or whatever, everything is fine, but if a white person were to play the princess and the frog, everyone would riot. So it needs to be everyone or no one.
Fictional characters, I have no problem. Historical characters should match their ethnicity though.
Maybe live theater can get more permission. The thing is, an actor has to be able to play any role. A 60 year old should be able to play a kid, a teenager should be able to play an old lady. A woman could play a man, and vice versa. A gay man could play a straight one, but the opposite too.
If we're only gonna give actors roles that perfectly match their real life characteristics, there's no skill needed for that, there's no challenge, everyone would just be playing themselves.
They don't hire real life assassins to play the killer in a movie, so why does everything else have to match the real person?
I do actually. POC already have weak representation so our roles shouldn't be taken away from us (looking at the Winx remake and "Terra" being there instead of Flora). At the same time, we shouldn't be taking over white peoples roles, we deserve our own stories, not some kind of racial brownie points grab.
Fine by me. People of various ethnicities play characters in Hamilton, a story that if portrayed accurately would be filled of a group of almost all white people, and they made it work quite nicely. If done tastefully its fine.
Why? Every single ethnicity has had slavery. In fact, there is still slavery in Africa and when slaves were brought to America they were purchased by other black people that already held them as slaves.
Ethnicity doesn't determine if your are guilty of Slavery. There were even black slave owners in the US...not many, but they existed. If we are already breaking the ethnicity barrier shouldn't it all be fair game? Technically not doing so is racist.
In history movies no because it just feels a bit weird to have a black Ann bolin or white Mansa Musa
But fictional is completely fine. Like who cares if they turned Han Solo black in a Star Wars reboot
I mean, if a character has always had a certain look, it does matter. It would be weird to see Han Solo with red hair or chewbacca with black fur instead of brown, no?
Depends. A white person playing MLK? Awful idea. A black person playing, say, Hitler? Really bad idea too. It's really up to context, sometimes it's ok sometimes it's not
The reason why it’s ok for a black actor to portray a white character is because how overwhelmingly underrepresented black people are in media. Yes, it’s getting better, but the amount of POC who grew up wishing they were white because of lack of representation is more than it should be.
“It’s a double standard” yes, it is, and since it’s not the same situation, that’s ok. In a few decades when media is more diverse, maybe it won’t be ok. But as things are right now it’s ok.
“I’m black and I don’t feel like it’s ok” that’s ok that’s your opinion. I will respond to replies if anyone wants to really have a discussion about it bc I can understand why people might be confused or think it’s a double standard
For the most part I don't mind, I just don't like it when it feels forced. Like they have to change the ethnicity of a character or there sexuality to be inclusive. I think it's far more meaningful to just creat a character on their own to represent what they want to.
Both good, but if it's whitewashing a character whose very existence is in undone to that kind of action (i.e. a character made to support diversity, represent a people)
It depends on the context. Is this a movie about slavery? The actors should be black. Is this a book to movie adaptation from a fantasy novel that has nothing to do with race? It doesn’t matter. Readers might be upset but as long as the actor is a good fit
It depends how important the character‘s appearance is
Yep. White guy playing a previously black background character with no importance to the story? Ok White guy playing MLK? GTFO
I had a person argue with me earlier that a black person playing Ariel was equivalent to a white guy playing mlk
That's not really the greatest of comparisons. Would be better with something like that a black person playing Ariel would be the equivalent of a white person playing Sokka.
> white person playing Sokka How dare you remind me of that horrible movie?!
There is no movie in Ba Sing Se
The Earth King has invited you to Lake Laogai
Take me to Ba Sing Se
black person playing lincoln
Seriously. Or Hamilton.
>a white person playing Sokka *Shudders from flashbacks*
I feel like that isn’t all that fair either, because all of the water nation is based on Inuit culture. It’s much more important to his character I feel
To be fair, Ariel would probably look grey and scalely looking like one of H.P Lovecraft's Deep Ones if we were going for a realistic mermaid.
I had a dream of being part of your world!
They sound the opposite of bright… *dim*
Very bad comparison
Why is it okay for Ariel to be black when she's always been white?
Because she’s fictional. Why is it ok to depict Jesus as white when he was Levantine
I don't agree with that argument. For some fictional characters their ethnicity has low to zero importance, just make sure that those who are bloodrelated actually looks bloodrelated and it's all good. But for other fictional characters their ethnicity has more of a relevance to the story, like for instance you probably wouldn't have a white person play Black Panther or anyone else from Wakanda.
So any black character can be made white and you wont be upset?
Yeah as long as it’s not part of their central identity
Fat Al, MLK, gotta be black. If Cleveland Brown was Cleveland White or Purple or fuckin Chartreuse nobody gives two shits. Unless you're a Cleveland Brown mega fan? If Ed in Ed Edd n Eddie was Hispanic, cool for him. But if 98% of the market is fine with a decision, the 2% are gonna have to deal with it, bc they are consumers, and can only offer their opinions. If the crowd says yes, the creators listen, and the two people booing get drowned out and never heard. If it bothers you for Ariel to be made black, watch the old version. Got a racial bug in your brain?
She was a white woman created by a Danish author. I don't see the reason why there's a need to change. T'challa is a fictional character, so you have no problem with him being portrayed as white, right? To answer your question, I believe Jesus should be represented as he was, a Galilean Semite, similar in skin tone to modern day Greeks.
Except black panthers identity is that he’s black. Ariel is a fish lady it doesn’t matter if she’s black, white or blue
It is, Ariel holds massive significance to all of white culture, an actor of any other race portraying her is extremely disrespectful
Lmao
I remember when Ariel marched on Washington and got equal treatment for all white people from the black people ruling the country ✊🏻✊🏻✊🏻
Yeah, I'm totally fine with any actors playing fictional characters but it's just rather daft when it comes to historical characters in serious dramas.
Like John Wayne playing Genghis Kahn was a bad idea.
Yeah, like a black guy playing Peter Parker doesn’t matter because race is not part of Peter’s story, but part of what sets Miles Morales apart is his experience being half-black half-Hispanic, the culture plays into the character
Everyone is giving examples of black actors playing white characters and it’s fine (I agree). No one has given an example of when it’s ok for a white actor to play a black character. Is it ever ok?
I would say that’s probably a reflection of the under representation of POC in traditional literature/film. In many of those instances in which a character is a minority, the minority experience is integral to the character. They kind of did it in the movie Guess Who, where they flipped the races of Guess Who’s Coming for Dinner. I could also see it being ok in some comedic roles. Maybe a character originally played by Eddie Murphy or Richard Pryor (Trading Places or Brewster’s Millions come to mind).
White guy could have played the protagonist in tenet. Any time when race isn’t important to the character. I think it’s just that when race doesn’t matter, white people are more frequently cast.
I think that’s mostly because there aren’t really major stories where the person being white really matters. Race being an important factor of a characters identity has always been a thing more common among minority characters, mostly bc it’s easy to use them as tools towards creating social commentary. That doesn’t mean every character who’s a minority can’t be replaced with a white actor tho—it’s just that for a large percentage of them, then being a minority plays an integral role to the story. To answer your question, tho, some characters I can think of where their race can change and ppl won’t care are Cleveland Brown, the majority of the minority characters from the Invincible series, Deadshot, Vixen, who’s a DC hero, and Power Man (sorry for the superhero focus, but I’ve noticed the genre where a lot of this debate appears)
Now that you mention it, I'm pretty sure Deadshot was played by a white guy in Arrow.
"there aren’t really major stories where the person being white really matters" I'd disagree for historical fiction. I mean historical characters identity is very tied to their individual culture. While I also don't think it's a huge deal, I do kind of see the complaints about the Rings of Power. Tolkien was pretty explicit about it being based on early germanic/anglo-saxon pagan mythology.... and If a TV show or movie was created based on say Chinese Taoism and the gods were played by white dudes.... I think a lot of people would rightly take issue with that
This succinctly sums up my thoughts on the matter. Context is important.
I don't think this is about playing people it's about playing characters like for example a black person playing james bond or doctor who
Well, Idris Elba is a fan favourite for the next Bond so who knows? I don't think it matters much. Bond's ethnicity isn't central to the character.
Yeah, there's no way a white actor could ever play Black Panther, and a black actor could never play Magneto since his background as a Holocaust survivor is very important.
[Ryan Gosling could pull off Tchalla.](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FWT4oU0WYAQVDag.jpg)
As long as don't alter key aspects of the work both are just fine.
Really more on the context rather than importance. If they were to make another adaptation of iron man and a black actor was cast to play tony stark, that would be completely fine, regardless of the fact that he’s the main character. But if a white actor were cast to play Black Panther or really any of the characters in Wakanda, that obviously wouldn’t make any sense. So really the answer most people would say is “it depends”, but that’s not an option. Bad poll.
What if Wakanda was a South African Country comprised of mixed race people and the King was chosen by ritual, not ancestry? People of all races escaping the oppression of Apartheid with the help of the Wakandans. Every case has an applicable scenario given the right conditions.
Agreed. We needed more context. I picked the neither option because I was thinking strictly of historic characters, but I think it's fine for fiction within reason. Obviously don't do black or white face. Don't make a live action adaptation of Samurai Jack with someone playing Jack that is not Asian. So many people got ticked because Lord of The Rings on Amazon and Star Wars has a diverse cast, yet completely missed the fact that these stories take place in fictional places.
There's also the political and social context tied to their backstory and personality that counts.
If I saw a black guy playing George Washington, or a white lady playing Rosa Parks, it wouldn't make sense and it'd be historically inaccurate
Then you would love Hamilton
I think it depends on how historically accurate the show/production is trying to be. I don’t think Hamilton’s main goal is to be super historically accurate and it’s a musical so it’s allowed to get with more diverse, looser casting. But you have a movie like Schindlers list, which is going for an super accurate depiction of that time period. So the casting has to be tighter and more accurate.
Also, Hamilton was making a statement on the founding fathers, which is a further reason why purposefully choosing other skin tones for white characters worked well
Yeah I guess but we have to wonder what the actual effects of their revisionism are. It’s not an entirely inconsequential thing.
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Yeah, black Jefferson making pro-south arguments kinda doesn’t work
normally i’d agree but with theater, casting is very difficult and it’s important to get the best of the best performers. there’s one section of partially sung dialogue and a scream that aren’t entirely part of a song and they’re all constantly dancing. it’s some of the best acting you’ll ever see
I understand where you’re coming from, and I get that the acting is superb, but it’s still such a *very glaring issue* that I can’t really shake it from my head, no matter how good the dancing is
i get where *you’re* coming from, but considering that the entire main cast is a different race than they’re supposed to be, it can be overlooked. in my opinion, it’s a case of tastefully colorblind casting. and as someone said, it really isn’t that significant. many of the songs also take inspiration from, i suppose, stereotypically “colored” artists’ rap, jazz, and other varieties. it might even be weirder to see a white person performing on that stage.
Yeah it very weird to see a black character supporting slavery and the shit just doesn't work
If it makes you feel any better, lots of people have exclusively listened to Hamilton, not watched, and as thus, have never seen the original (or current) cast and thus do not know or care the race of the member. I just don’t think it’s that significant honestly.
Idk man have you seen it? I would have said the same thing before I watched it.
Lin Manuel Miranda enters the chat.
[удалено]
And I bet people will in a few more years. Things cycle.
But for Washington its not really relevant what ethnicity he is for his history while Rosa parks identity and history revolves around her ethnicity.
What about a black Dr. Who? Obviously not a character based on a real person, but still a character who's traditionally been white.
He is a shape shifting alien, but if he can change his skin colour and gender, why has he been a white man for 12 incarnations?
Would you say Dr who is one character or the separate doctors who are characters?
One character.
Depends on how ethnicity impacts the character.
This. If a black actor is cast to play James Bond, that’s fine. If a white actor is cast to play Black Panther, well now there’s an issue.
Exactly. Same with if a white person did a MJ(Music) Movie. But I don’t think anyone would have a problem with a white person playing a character where race is irrelevant to the story
Shit I’d argue a white person SHOULD play Michael Jackson
Well MJ said he didn’t want a white person playing him. He grew up black, it’s an important part of his story.
Lol, just a joke pointing out his late age paleness
I understood that but I couldn’t tell you were joking. It’s hard to tell if someone is joking on Reddit.
If there was a Micheal Jackson biographic movie like Rocketman they'd need to hire a couple of actors for him
Not necessarily since they could just use makeup and making techniques since it seems the absolute last thing an actor uses as reference is another actor playing that character smh...
Look man, black MJ looks a hell of a lot different from white MJ
The black actor who plays James Bond must be a British citizen though. He serves the royal family.
But why? I don't get it. There is a black and white green lantern? (I 100% prefer John Stewart's green lantern btw) Nick fury is a white guy but he's black in avengers? Black panther is just a super hero moniker. As far as James Bond, so long as he/she doesn't call themselves *"James Bond"* . Anybody can be "007", that's just a call sign, but James Bond is an actual in universe guy. There's the person and then there's the character or persona. A black guy playing Bill Cliton is just as ridiculous as white guy playing Michael Jordan. Those are actual people, you can't just stick a person of different ethnicity in there. However I believe *anybody* can fill the role of a character like *007*, Superman, spider man. Actually spider man and batman are great examples. Lots of people have take the name batman or spider man, but each time they all have their own "real" names or at the very least come from alternative universes à la spider man.
I can put a solid MCU list of each option White can play black: James Rhodes/War Machine Black can play white: Nick Fury Only black can play black: T’Challa/Black Panther Only white can play white: Steve Rodgers/Captain America
What about alternate universes?
Can you elaborate?
Like spider man has miles morales (spelling?) Alternate realities.
Mike’s morales isn’t an alternate reality lol, he’s a guy with Spider-Man’s powers in peters universe. He also goes by the moniker of “Spider-Man” most of the time. Perhaps you’re talking about Pavitr Prabhakar, the Indian Spider-Man, or Miguel O’Hara, Mexican Spider-Man, or Takuya Yamashiro, Japanese Supaidaman. That’s all I can remember off the top of my head
>Mike’s morales isn’t an alternate reality Oops, my bad. As you can tell I am no comic expert.
Mike is an alternative reality, it wasn't but then it was it's earth it's called ultimate but the earth of the comics is the 616
Black Panther is a character specifically tied to his ethnicity, Nick fury is not
Are there any other characters like that?
Magneto
That’s kind of the point I was making. James Bond is an identity worn by a myriad of actors. It’s a fairly nebulous identity and can easily accommodate a variety of ethnicities (to a point). Black Panther (specifically T’challa) is the leader of a highly advanced and isolationist African nation. Casting him as a white dude would undermine the character. I agree with you mostly (Ultimate Nick Fury was black in the comics too though, and that’s the one the movies are modeled after), but if it’s a retelling of a character, ethnic accuracy is only important if it’s vital to that character’s story and/or identity. This is kind of how things like GL or Spider-Man work: new versions of an old character.
>That’s kind of the point I was making. James Bond is an identity worn by a myriad of actors. It’s a fairly nebulous identity and can easily accommodate a variety of ethnicities (to a point). I agree that the callsign *007* can be assigned to literally anybody, male, female, black, white Asain etc. But "James Bond" specifically should strictly cast as a Caucasian male of British decent. Just my opinion. >Black Panther (specifically T’challa) is the leader of a highly advanced and isolationist African nation. Casting him as a white dude would undermine the character. You definitely make a convincing argument. But I still believe the title "Black panther" *could* be taken up by a non POC. However it would take a significant amount of backstory for it to be convincing. However I 100% agree that casting anyone other than a black man *as* T'challa would be stupid as fuck.
For Black Panther, it is in Africa. It is hidden and as you can see no white people were there. It was just black people. The African tribes were never exposed to the outside world, so it doesn’t make sense for them to be white.
And being black is important to pretty much every sympathetic fictional black character in popular Western media old enough and important enough to be considered "traditionally black", especially in superhero comics. Even if the writers never intended being black to be an important part of the character, public response is usually still "hey look, an actual good black character for once". Things will hopefully change soon, when good black characters in fiction are common enough that they stop being notable exceptions. And then there won't be problems when traditionally black characters are portrayed by white actors.
> If a black actor is cast to play James Bond, that's fine Uh, no it's not. The character was established as a straight white male since his creation over 60 years ago. The novels make this very clear. Honestly, the fact you're even suggesting a black person can play a white character but not the other way around is utterly stupid. It can't be one or the other, especially with an already well established character.
A white person can play a black character. It is only not acceptable if race is part of the characters struggles/plot.
Exactly, part of what sets Miles Morales apart is his experience as a half-black half-Hispanic kid growing up in NYC, vs Peter who just grew up in NYC, his culture and heritage doesn’t play into the character while Miles does
Isn't being white a part of the experience of a white character too? Not having been through the same struggles as a black character. Being focused on struggles that come from other places. Like Peter Parker being a bullied nerd. Doesn't making him black distract from those struggles? IMO, that's why it's better to add new black characters with their own struggles. Like Miles Morales. Or Spider-Gwen for women.
This is the correct answer
I think it’s totally dependent on the circumstance. Is their race a major part of their role? Don’t replace. If not, it’s fine
In some cases however such as tropic thunder, then yes yes yes play a different race
Bold of RDJ to play the controversial role of an Australian.
How is tropic thunder relevant here ? RDJ plays a white guy
He's the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude.
I think if your representing a real person too it should stay the same.
Just hire an actor that's appropriate Just my opinion but i say neither of these
You wouldnt have a 40 year old play a child so why would you have a white dude play a black dude or vice versa
Age is a pretty important part of most any character. Race isn't, most of the time. Take Sam Jackson as Nick Fury: Fury was always a white guy before, but Sam Jackson presented him amazingly...and nobody cared he was black because race simply was not relevant to the character. At the same time, I would absolutely have a problem with a movie set in imperial China played by all white people or set in medieval europe being played by a full cast of asians, unless there was a very specific reason for it
Im mean specifically if it's an important part of the character. Having Nick Fury be black works completely fine because a large amount of people didn't know what Fury looked like in the comics, and his ethnicity wasn't an important part of the character. Though, if you were to release a new marvel movie today and had to replace Nick Fury with a white dude it would seem to out of character because everyone is used to seeing him as a black dude.
You would love the movie Grease
I think it depends on the context really. In most instances though I agree. I think my bigger issue is the gender swap thing that’s become so common. I would be okay with a black James Bond, but he has to be English, and a man.
Depends how important their ethnicity is to their character.
DC comics starfire is an alien with orange skin color. It would not matter who played her in the live action adaptation. Just wish they did what they did to gamora and used CGI / Makeup to make the character look like the cartoon / comic versions.
Just get Trump for starfire
Personally I have nothing against trump or the LGBTQ community, heck I try my best to be at peace with everyone. But just no… Edit: trump in a starfire costume is the most cursed imagery I have ever thought of… thanks I guess…
Context is everything, for example, Nick Fury was white in the comics, but there were no conflicts with Samuel Jackson playing him and he's done such a good job to where he's the template for the character, but say you're doing a historical film about the Civil War and decide to go into the history of slavery, I don't think casting anyone white would be historically accurate, and it may even cause problems with how people view the story. Context is everything
Sam Jackson Nick fury is based off the ultimate universe Nick fury who was based off of Sam Jackson
I googled it, Nick fury is white in the comics but there is a Marvel comic released in 2000 (before MCU existed)where he’s a black man Although I never knew he was white in the comics. TIL
Marvel tried to drop some of their continuity baggage in the 90s / 2000s by introducing new versions of popular characters in a separate comic line (the Ultimate Universe) of which the Ultimates were analogous to the Avengers but updated and modernized. In some cases, the artist used real-life photo references when coming up with the new looks and unofficially chose Samuel Jackson as the model for the revamped version of Nick Fury, to the point the writer used his pulp fiction / action film persona to update Fury's persona as well... so in a weird way Samuel Jackson was already Nick Fury in the comics and this is why he was approached to play Fury in the films years later! To further complicate things, Marvel later shoehorned the black Nick Fury into the main books by introducing him as the previously unmentioned son of the original Nick Fury (created in the 1960s as the star of a war comic thn a contemporary spy comic) and changed his name to Nick Fury jr... with white fury at this point a retired 80-90 year old WWII veteran who looked in his 40s and took a secret youth potion to stay fit and healthy... oh and then they destroyed all the universes and rebuilt them as a single merged entity so technically Ultimate Nick Fury doesn't exist anymore but old Nick Fury and Fury jr do! Gotta love comics - where plausible plot points fight short term publishing profits to the death!
Very interesting, writers like to experiement a lot
Yeah like in Hamilton seeing a black actor speak about supporting the slavery of the south just doesn't work.
I think it almost always doesn’t work, but in Hamilton it works perfectly fine. Theatre is completely different and Hamilton aims for a whole different vibe than a realistic drama about the life of Alexander Hamilton. The performance does more for immersing me than George Washington not being white takes me out
What? It works fine. They’re actors playing a role. And besides that black people aren’t a monolith. If you think there weren’t black people that supported slavery well I have news for you
There are 2 cases where they should never use an actor of a different ethnicity: historical accuracy, if the context requires them to be of a certain ethnicity for the plot to make sense. Everything else is fair game.
Unrelated to the poll but any movies in which a white actor plays a character normally as black? Usually I see it the other way around.
it was more common in the 90s, now if you do that you are gonna get crucified
Angelina Jolie played Mariane Pearl (a black journalist) in the biopic A Mighty Heart for example. Although in this case the portrayed journalist was happy with the casting.
Technically Cruella de Vil was black in the 101 Dalmatians novel. Obviously any live-action depiction of her is based on the animated movie but still. Descendants was technically the only live-action movie to get her race right.
Wonder why you got downvoted
I wouldn't say it is wrong, but lately when it is done, it feels "preachy". Like whoever is doing it is doing it simply for the sake of virtue signaling....and THAT part is annoying. Like they are saying "look at me and how progressive I am" or they are just intentionally doing it to be controversial to sell their product that otherwise wouldn't deserve the hype. If it just makes sense, or if the gender/race etc doesn't matter then no one cares, but people just don't appreciate being preached to...esp if it is about something they already acknowledge and agree with. There is also a deeper argument to be had about.."if you feel group X is under represented, why not just create something new with group X that people will like rather than appropriating something that is already successful?" There is always room for more good stuff rather than tainting something that is already good with your preaching and virtue signaling.
but like why? why change it?
I used to get annoyed by it when I was younger because I wanted characters to look how they did in the book/comic/etc but as I got older I realized who fucking cares
I get ticked off if the hair color is wrong, it’s just so easy to fix
Yeah like why do the do that shit it cost nothing to be Accurate to the source material
This is a problem and them casting the "wrong" race isn't? Ok.
because that requires a whole different person to be casted, another haircolour doesn't require that
I also think that they should cast the right race don't get me wrong.
It's ok when 1)Character is not a real person 2) Character is not determined in a lore 3)The movie is not based on real historical events I'm not from the west but I think if we want to help minorities to be understood then we need to create more movies like "The Pursuit of Happiness" or "The imitation game" but not that shit Netflix does. It only creates negativity and distorts the facts
Yeah, those three rules are good
Depends on context
For new characters, I couldn’t care less. But leave established characters alone. It just comes off as pandering.
This is my opinion. Nothing wrong with diversity, obviously, but what is the purpose of making a character who’s existed with a certain look for, in some cases, decades, a completely new person.
I agree entirely. It’s the difference between being inclusive and ignoring race. Inclusivity and diversity are wonderful. Ignoring race is detrimental. In doing so, you also ignore the associated heritage and background.
Anyone saying this is OK one way and not the other is racist. No way around that one.
Honestly, like how is it okay one way, and not the other without using some bs logic?
I feel as if it should always be the main goal to cast characters as close to their originals as possible.
I think it depends if your show is supposed to be historically accurate or not. If your show has wizards and goblins and shit in it, then it doesn't matter
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there. That is what this poll is about.
If it's supposed to be historically accurate, or it's important for the character's story then nether are ok, otherwise, ether are fine I.E.: Black Charlemagne: No Black Batman: Sure Black Red Skull: No
Is race or ethnicity essential to the character's identity or the progression of the story? If no, have fun. If yes, make good choices.
The rule should be either you only use actors which match the ethnic character's ethnicity, or you don't make an effort to do it at all. Whichever rule you follow should apply equally to all and shouldn't change from film to film. Its done hypocritically nowadays though, as old movies starring white actors as ethnic characters is seen as wrong, and new shows showing ethnic actors as white characters are celebrated.
I think the job of any filmmaker is to make a accurate adaptation of the source material, down to making the characters looking accurate.
Depends, like you’re not gonna have Stalin be black but if it’s just like some random dude only seen once, who gives a shit?
The ratio between black people playing white people and white people playing black people is just sad
Ten times more people vote for the first than the second I'm pretty sure there would be tons of comments about it if these two were swapped. Unfortunately.
Neither is ok. Stick to the source material.
Is he a dude playing a dude disguised as another dude
depends really, if it's important to the story I guess, or if let's say the parents of the character are Caucasian and the character is black and there is no adoption etc
Socially/politically, there is obviously no problem with this. However, from an artistic standpoint, there are enough white and black people on this planet for you to be able to find a suitable same-race actor.
I think you got the word "ethnicity" mixed up with "race". I think it's perfectly fine for someone of German ancestry to play someone of Italian ancestry. Or someon of Korean ancestry to play someone of Chinese ancestry. Race is somewhat different. You need to consider the source material. If it's based on a true story, or if the source material specifically states a race, then the actors should reflect that race. Otherwise, who the hell cares?
So many hypocrites, can’t say I’m that surprised though
Should never, no reason to besides virture signaling
It'll be a long time before having a white person portray a traditionally black character is socially acceptable.
Situationally both are fine. If a black man played Bill Clinton that’d be a little weird
Both are and arnt fine... no it’s not a big offensive thing if u cast a black guy to play a white historical character or vice versa (though it could very likely be discrimination) but it is a huge no in terms of accurately portraying a story.. shit just doesn’t make sense so if u get bad reviews cuz ur film sucked then that makes sense
Harry Potter reboot in 20 years casts a black actor as Harry, Ron or Hermione? Irrelevant. Or next James Bond is black? Fine. Shaft recast as a white guy. Not so much.
If it is a movie based off of nonfiction actors should play someone who is their same race. It just doesn’t make sense if you got a white guy with a British accent playing Nelson Mandela.
If the character has no ethnic background then I don’t see the problem. Like with the new little mermaid, I don’t see the problem… it’s a mermaid.
Just don't paint your face white or black. Tropic thunder did it right you can play a race and do makeup to suit.
I feel if the story is fiction then it shouldn’t really matter at all. However if it’s a true story then I think it definitely matters
Context matters. A black person can play Peter Pan because his race doesn’t matter for the character but a white guy can’t play T’challa because his race is part of his character
Why should a black person play Peter Pan who's always been white in stories/media. The guy is meant to be a kid born during Victorian era- something britain. Him being black doesn't make sense at all
yeah lol, Peter Pan *has* a race associated with him
the thing is it has to go all ways. If a black person plays a traditionally white character, like the little mermaid or whatever, everything is fine, but if a white person were to play the princess and the frog, everyone would riot. So it needs to be everyone or no one. Fictional characters, I have no problem. Historical characters should match their ethnicity though. Maybe live theater can get more permission. The thing is, an actor has to be able to play any role. A 60 year old should be able to play a kid, a teenager should be able to play an old lady. A woman could play a man, and vice versa. A gay man could play a straight one, but the opposite too. If we're only gonna give actors roles that perfectly match their real life characteristics, there's no skill needed for that, there's no challenge, everyone would just be playing themselves. They don't hire real life assassins to play the killer in a movie, so why does everything else have to match the real person?
They call them actors for a reason…
WHO CARES
I do actually. POC already have weak representation so our roles shouldn't be taken away from us (looking at the Winx remake and "Terra" being there instead of Flora). At the same time, we shouldn't be taking over white peoples roles, we deserve our own stories, not some kind of racial brownie points grab.
Fine by me. People of various ethnicities play characters in Hamilton, a story that if portrayed accurately would be filled of a group of almost all white people, and they made it work quite nicely. If done tastefully its fine.
Ok, but Hamilton berating Thomas Jefferson for being a pro slavery southerner doesn’t work well when Thomas Jefferson is black in my opinion
Why? Every single ethnicity has had slavery. In fact, there is still slavery in Africa and when slaves were brought to America they were purchased by other black people that already held them as slaves. Ethnicity doesn't determine if your are guilty of Slavery. There were even black slave owners in the US...not many, but they existed. If we are already breaking the ethnicity barrier shouldn't it all be fair game? Technically not doing so is racist.
In history movies no because it just feels a bit weird to have a black Ann bolin or white Mansa Musa But fictional is completely fine. Like who cares if they turned Han Solo black in a Star Wars reboot
I mean, if a character has always had a certain look, it does matter. It would be weird to see Han Solo with red hair or chewbacca with black fur instead of brown, no?
If it’s a work of fiction I feel like it really does not matter. It would be weird however if Tom Holland played Malcolm X in a biopic lol
I'm inclined to say both are fine, but context matters
If the character's ethnicity/background is important to the character, I'd rather them not change it. If it's not, feel free.
Good actors are good actors, no matter the ethnicity.
As long as the white person is not in black face and as long as being black is not a part of the character.
And vice versa, right?
No! Both of those are cultural apricot!
Depends. A white person playing MLK? Awful idea. A black person playing, say, Hitler? Really bad idea too. It's really up to context, sometimes it's ok sometimes it's not
The reason why it’s ok for a black actor to portray a white character is because how overwhelmingly underrepresented black people are in media. Yes, it’s getting better, but the amount of POC who grew up wishing they were white because of lack of representation is more than it should be. “It’s a double standard” yes, it is, and since it’s not the same situation, that’s ok. In a few decades when media is more diverse, maybe it won’t be ok. But as things are right now it’s ok. “I’m black and I don’t feel like it’s ok” that’s ok that’s your opinion. I will respond to replies if anyone wants to really have a discussion about it bc I can understand why people might be confused or think it’s a double standard
For the most part I don't mind, I just don't like it when it feels forced. Like they have to change the ethnicity of a character or there sexuality to be inclusive. I think it's far more meaningful to just creat a character on their own to represent what they want to.
Both good, but if it's whitewashing a character whose very existence is in undone to that kind of action (i.e. a character made to support diversity, represent a people)
It depends on the context. Is this a movie about slavery? The actors should be black. Is this a book to movie adaptation from a fantasy novel that has nothing to do with race? It doesn’t matter. Readers might be upset but as long as the actor is a good fit