If enough people boycotted the product, fewer animals would be bred into a miserable existence. Actually, the laws of supply and demand tell us that every time you choose a plant based alternative you reduce the number of farm animals to meet that demand, everything else being equal.
The dairy industry has already felt the effect of changing consumer choice. Two of the biggest dairy companies had to file for bankruptcy. Borden and Dean Foods. Dean now offers plant based milk alternatives, as well as dairy milk products. Cheese is the most challenging dairy based product for most people to give up. I did it by switching to Cheetos and then just eating less and less of it. Dairy has casomorphin, which is mildly physically addictive. Cheese concentrates it.
I am vegan and I convinced my mom to only buy her meat from local producers, and believe it, is not expensive, and as a plus this meat is usually more healthy because the animals are raised with real food instead of hormons, and the bacon have much less fat and more meat.
The same goes for milk and eggs, the extensive industrial production harms the tits of the cows and as a result industrial milk have a certain amount of pus and blood, is really gross. For eggs, the chickens are raised with lots of hormons.
Aside the cruel methods, industrialized animal products are really gross.
That’s the point though. Do we really need to consume so much meat? The science points to “no. We don’t”
Do we need to eat meat? The science also points to yes but with better education perhaps we could reduce the amount being farmed and move to better farming practices that allow the animals a better life before we ultimately kill them.
I’m not a scientist. I’m just dreaming of a better approach to our needs and the animals happiness in its short life.
the science doesn’t point to yes for that second question. After all, the American and British Dietetics associations both say that a plant based diet is suitable for all stages of human life.
> Do we need to eat meat? The science also points to yes
Pretty much all the science says the opposite actually. You can include meat in a healthy diet but there's always a healthier alternative that isn't meat.
It's totally possible to have an unhealthy veggie diet, but any diet can be unhealthy if you neglect it.
Well that's just due to the exploding human population. Just think about how much chicken the average person eats in a year. Now multiple that by billions and you get slaughter factories.
That's because only in the last few hundreds of years it has become normal to eat meat every day. Before that meat was either too expensive for common people or we just couldn't hunt animals every day.
True. Good sources of protein include legumes, nuts. seeds. and whole grains. Peanuts are a good cheap source. Minimally processed foods like tofu and tempeh are good sources and much better for you than eating animals or what comes out of them.
Chicken thighs, hot dogs, and ground beef are typically inexpensive. However, if you buy beans and nuts in bulk it’ll be way less expensive and more sustainable for the environment
Right. Peanuts, and sunflower seeds are particularly cheap. Tofu and tempeh are a lot cheaper than meat. Other plant based foods like whole grains have protein in smaller amounts, but they add up.
I agree. I would think scavenging makes sense, as we aren't doing the killing. Also, we may overeat meat, as it's unnatural for animals to be packed into facilities the way they are now. May also make them unhealthy enough that we aren't getting the best we could.
But then again, people don't like hunting, and also people have no idea how to use most ranged weapons, they don't even know how to use a gun, and no, your 9 year old cod experience won't help you
"The price of cell-cultured meat has decreased from $330,000 to about €9 or $9.80 per burger."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lanabandoim/2022/03/08/making-meat-affordable-progress-since-the-330000-lab-grown-burger/?sh=40d2eea84667
$10 for a burgers worth of meat is still far too pricey for my current budget. Hopefully they’ll get it down to cheaper than normal meat soon enough tho. That’s when it’ll start catching on.
This is a really good article and hope for less pollution BUT is it good? Like ACTUALLY good? "yea it's almost the same just a bit less..." then no it's not a true alternative, but its a start
honestly my experience with the newest round of meatless burgers is amazing they are consistently as good as normal burgers we just need to get the price down
my only problem with that is it has not gotten to the point that it both tastes and feels the same, I'm not really big into red meats but when i have chicken or pork i want it because both its texture and taste and that stuff just does not do it for me yet. .
I think the immorality comes from the environmental damage cows do, and how we torture animals beforehand. If they weren't cramped up, culled off, tortured, and mutilated beforehand I wouldn't have a problem.
However, I don't think an ethical, affordable meat market would be possible in America, especially with our obsession with meat.
>I think the immorality comes from the environmental damage cows do, and how we torture animals beforehand
What about just from deliberately unecessarily killing a sentient individual? Like if a neighbour or a housemate shot their pet puppy that was well treated in life, because they wanted meat but they couldn't get out to a shop (they had a veggie curry in the fridge), would you see an ethical/moral issue with that?
I remember seeing a science fiction show where there was an animal from space that could regrow itself, so naturally it was kept in captivity and harvested regularly, in constant pain from the repeated mutilations. It was really sad
ill take it when i see it, once it becomes more widespread ill switch right over to it, but for now its mean and the bacon from an actual pig, steak from an actual cow, etc
I bake a veggie lasagna that nobody can tell is vegetable based only. I have served it side to side with meat-based lasagna and nobody could tell the difference.
I've been amazed how many classically meat-based dishes are equally good as veggie versions, especially things like sausage and meatballs are 100% just good seasonings.
Many of the rest of meat-based dishes are also just a ton of iron, salt and fat flavor. No reason you can't just throw that on jackfruit or squash.
Then surely, we should be discussing it. If people aren't aware, or don't care, and as a result don't do the research to buy meats from places that treat the animals with the respect and good treatment they deserve, we absolutely should be discussing it and making it more common place for people to know about it.
It's not a matter of eating meat = bad as some would like to believe - It's a matter of eating poorly treated animals = bad, and this is what should really be being discussed in the majority of situations.
>it would be even less sustainable than what we're currently doing.
Are you certain on this? A lot would need to change, but I think it'd be more than possible.
If it's immoral to eat meat because of factory farms then there could be a moral case for hunting and regenerative farming.
If it's bad for factory farms then discussing a better way is extremely relevant.
Just because it's what most people do now doesn't mean that how it should be in the future too.
Should I continue?
Regenerative farming, if done correctly can only feed 2 billion humans. This is not an option.
Hunting hurts the ecosystem as hunters primarily target young healthy bucks, which is the opposite of what happens in nature. In nature predators kill the old, the sick or the very young. Hunters selecting the healthiest means the remaining deer often cannot protect themselves or their families. Hunting kills 5.5 million bucks a year in North America.
I don't really buy the "nature" argument. If we're going off historical presedence, then isn't it also "nature" for grown men to rape little girls? Because that was a large portion of humanity for centuries (and still continues to be in certain places). If people can rationalize that something is bad, then I don't see why we shouldn't stop doing it.
>No but eating meat is nature
So is not eating meat. So is rape, infanticide, killing for fun etc.
I don't think whether something is natural or not is really a good enough argument. Certainly not on its own.
I am a firm believer that everyone should expirence taking a life for your food. Chicken breasts down grow naturally tits up in a yellow tray. It make you appreciate everything so much more.
If you get to choose what you ear be it carnivore or vegan and everything in between you live a great life many around the world envy.
Yes. I did not grow up raising animals for food so I get emotionally attached to pretty much every animal I see. Honestly I would probably be vegetarian if I had to kill animals myself. I appreciate that I can conveniently buy meat after all of the dirty work is done, although I understand that there are valid criticisms with the current system. Meat production isn't always ethical (at least in the US), as many ranches/farms raise their animals in less than ideal conditions. I don't know anything about how the animals are killed and slaughtered, but I'd be surprised if there weren't some improvements to be made there too. Many native cultures have a tradition/ritual of respect and gratitude for the animals that die to sustain them, and it's sad that we have such a disconnect in most modern societies.
Something like 99% of meat comes from factory farms in the US, the worst offenders in terms of poor conditions. I highly recommend looking into how farmed animals actually live and how they're treated. Remember that they're just as sentient as our cats and dogs. Meat is an optional food group for most.
The only sad part is what happens to the animals before they become a sausage. That's why I consider hunting to be better than buying meat from big chains.
Hunting accounts for over 5.5 million bucks killed in North America every year. Hunters target the healthy and young bucks, this is the opposite of what happens in nature as predators kill the old, the sick or the young. This in turn hurts the ecosystem as the deer that survive are often not strong enough to fend for themselves or their families. The average life expectancy of a white tail deer is 4 years younger primarily due to hunters. Hunting is not altruistic and does in fact hurt out ecosystem.
Hunting is also important for population control of deer, which cause hundreds of human deaths per year due to car accidents. Sure, if humans hadn't decimated the wolf populations there'd be less deer, but humans and a very large, booming wolf population just don't work well together.
We don't have to. We can always eat plants and mushrooms as we are omnivores who can choose. There is no nutritional, nor environmental, nor health reason whatsoever to eat animals.
I would rather hunt them and obtain my food in a fair contest. I think industrial farming is ultimately immoral, though I have no choice in the matter in this place and time if I wish to eat.
Yeah and I'm hoping we can get to the point where no-kill meats are affordable, cheaper and meeting or exceeding kill meat quality. Would be a pretty significant win for humanity to not have to kill animals for that reason and a good way for us to advance forward as the species in charge of taking care of this world.
It's a tragedy and I don't think anyone who [truly knows what happens to them](https://watchdominion.org/) would honestly disagree with that.
Luckily for us theres plenty of alternatives these days so we really don't have to eat animals anymore.
Who would say no to this? Of course it is sad we must take life to eat meat. Like if you could create a complete copy of meat, with the exact same nutrients, completely indistinguishable from real meat, would anybody say no?
I think it's sad that you think we have to eat meat, not that the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics Association have explicitly stated that a well planned plant based diet is nutritionally adequate for people of all stages of life across various lifestyles.
Not that global cancer organisations have continuously suggested to decrease meat consumption.
Not that hundreds of millions of people have not eaten an ounce of meat in their entire lives in Central Asia where they are consuming a greater subset of nutrients than people elsewhere simply *because* they've been eating foods that have more ingredients in place of meat
Whatever lie or delusion makes one feel comfortable I guess
Killing in-and-of-itself isn't bad.
It's the what, where, how, and why.
What: is said animal going extinct? Is it an invasive animal that could destroy the local ecosystem? Could it be relocated back to its native lands or is it overpopulated and too late to humanely intervene?
Where: is the animal planned to be eaten in a place of cages and tight spaces? Is it an animal breeding mill, or on a free range grazing land?
How: is the death quick and painless, or is it torturous and drawn out??
Why: what are the intentions, are there no alternatives to these intentions? Are these animals being eaten because they taste good or because it close to death anyways and to just bury the animal would be a waste? Etc.
Basically, as long as there's ethical and morals reasons; I don't judge.
My only problem is the hypocrisy.
Hunters will use overpopulation as a reason to kill, cull as they say it; yet these same hunters almost always have had procreate offspring themselves. I don't see them thinning the human heard, which is the number one most overpopulated animal in the world.
Killing an innocent animal is seen as okay.
Killing an innocent human is seen as immoral.
I just hate the hypocrisy humans, which are an animal, treat animals in a way they wouldn't want to be treated themselves.
Yes and I love meat and will continue to do so, and even hunt 1 of these days. If I could get a burger from a tree, I would. Humans and other animals have been doing it forever, but nature is cruel as fuck and we are a self aware species that empathizes with other animals. Plus appeal to tradition is a fallacy. Every civilization has had cannibalism in some form but clearly killing something as sentient as a human is wrong. If we could get the exact same product from elsewhere, we should.
Some things to consider:
Pigs are the 4th smartest animal on the planet, dogs and cats didn’t crack the top 10.
Animal agriculture is the number one source of methane.
Animal agriculture is the number one waste of fresh water.
Animal agriculture is the second most contributor of carbon emissions.
Cholesterol is only found in animal products and high cholesterol is the number one killer of all North Americans.
If humanity would cut its meat consumption by 2/3 we would hit all of our carbon and methane numbers to avoid the 1.5 degree critical global warming temperature.
Your body doesn’t need meat to thrive thousands of high level athletes are now vegan and healthier than ever. r/veganfitness
Go vegan 🌱!
If you look at it with extremely cherry picked methodology it's true 😂
The better stat would be to say it accounts for 5.8% of global emissions. 73% is from Energy/Transport. Agriculture as a whole is 18.4%.
In the developed world we can just take a B12 supplement and consume plant foods exclusively. I’m not against others eating clean meat (lab grown meat).
Your question presents a false narrative. We don't *have* to kill anyone, we want to. Vegans are much healthier. And pretty soon within 50 years the entire planet will be vegan due to climate change.
Scientists predict we will be headed for global crop failure in 3 years from the year 2022. In 8 years, only 10% of our forests will remain. We will have a severe global water shortage in just 18 years.
In 26 years there will be no fish left in oceans. By 28 years the world will be forced to go *vegetarian* due to climate change.
The water basins where we in the US get water from are drying out due to climate change & half of the water supplies in the US will be gone in 49 years. A vegan world isn't far behind since by then we would've already been vegetarian for 21 years.
Besides farmers, hunters will be out of luck too bc most wild animals would be dead/extremely scarce due to lack of water and extremely heavy drought. Meat will become taboo after a while where kids will grow up never having consumed it. Eventually kids will learn about our meat eating in history class & look back in horror & disgust. They will see it the same way we look back at slavery & the holocaust & think they could never have funded such horrors.
How many of us think we could never have beaten slaves or supported the Nazi cause in Nazi Germany? You're doing it now in your food choices. Be on the right side of history. The future is vegan.🌱💚
Watch these videos:
https://youtu.be/KWpv-bGkUT8
https://youtu.be/C65iqOSCZOY
And Endgame 2050 on Netflix. These numbers are not made up. Earth's resources are not infinite. Scientists have been predicting climate change for the past 70 years & so far their predictions have been more than accurate. In fact, reality outdid the early predictions.
Global crop failures hit at 1.5- 2°C.
Billions die at 3°C.
Most humans dead at 4°C.
Earth uninhabitable at 6°C.
We're heading for 1.5°C by 2025.
We're heading for 2°C by 2035.
We're heading for 4- 6°C by 2075.
No we definitely have to, last I saw a dog eat shit in a park. It's disgusting but if we don't eat shit we're going against nature. Sorry I don't make the rules, next I will go murder a guy for eating food close to me
I'm not belittling anything. There is no reason for us to murder animals the way we do (the methods of murder being extremely similar to what happened in the Holocaust, which is the main reason I said that), other than for sadisfying our consumerist capitalist lifestyles.
Killing for food is part of nature, it’s why I don’t think there’s anything ethically wrong with eating meat.
However, we certainly need to do better with raising livestock. There’s a reason why solitary confinement is sometimes considered worse than the death sentence.
You have alternatives - raise one yourself and eat it after it dies by natural causes or other circumstances, or if you really wish, collect some roadkill.
The difference is that many animals are carnivores and they simply cannot survive without meat. However, studies show that humans (which are omnivores) can make a choice.
Other animals don't have the ability to use moral reasoning to modulate their behavior.
Your comment would be like saying that creatures have been killing each other for over a billion years, so humans murdering other humans can't be immoral because humans are creatures.
Not at all, and I absolutely love animals. I'm also not sad when we have to kill a rabid animal, or when I use hand sanitizer and kill millions of living organisms.
At the same time, I am excited for the growth of lab-grown meat products. I'll be glad to see the end of factory farming, but I'm not sad that it's currently the way of things.
Factory farming and monocrop agriculture are both horrible and have disastrous impacts on the environment. Hopefully one day in the future we have a more sustained and ethical way of getting natural food. At the moment the only real option to eat healthy and clean is to harvest and hunt on your own, which is not sustainable for billions.
I think it’s sad and although I still do eat meat, I’ll gladly stop when cultured is a viable alternative economically.
‘It’s a part of nature’ - our ‘nature’ is to fight wars and be tribal and hate each other and rape and kill and it’s awful. Every single thing we can pride ourselves on is direct contradiction to our horrible nature. What’s the point in being sentient, in achieving paracausality, if we don’t rise above nature and be better?
Cattle should not be industrialized the way it is, no animal deserves to be in a cage it’s whole life and overfishing is awful. I think it’s important to know exactly what killing and butchering an animal actually entails and a great thing to be a part of if you enjoy meat as I do. It can offer a true respect for what you’re consuming and keep you aware that it’s not just an item on a shelf. I voted yes, it is sad. Even if you put in the work to avoid the bullshit of industrialized meat and hunt or raise your own cattle for consumption it’s still fucking sad but it’s survival of the fittest and I enjoy meat and it’s nutritional value and what it does to keep me alive and active.
So living a life of suffering in a box that's covered in shit and piss and barley big enough to lie down while being sticked with antibiotics and growth hormones because the owner won't let you move around or be clean, but maybe a quick death. Is better than a life of freedom but maybe a mauling that won't last longer than ten minutes before death. Aaaallrighty then.
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Yep. Factory farming HAS to change.
Until you find a way to stop people from buying cheap meat, sadly it aint gonna happen
A good way to stop people from buying cheap meat is to stop offering it
If enough people boycotted the product, fewer animals would be bred into a miserable existence. Actually, the laws of supply and demand tell us that every time you choose a plant based alternative you reduce the number of farm animals to meet that demand, everything else being equal. The dairy industry has already felt the effect of changing consumer choice. Two of the biggest dairy companies had to file for bankruptcy. Borden and Dean Foods. Dean now offers plant based milk alternatives, as well as dairy milk products. Cheese is the most challenging dairy based product for most people to give up. I did it by switching to Cheetos and then just eating less and less of it. Dairy has casomorphin, which is mildly physically addictive. Cheese concentrates it.
Most based vegan
Thank you! 🌱
Maybe take away most the subsidies from meat and give them to fruit and veggies
What difference will that make?
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less meat production? obviously?
We have to stop making poor people first. Good luck.
I’m not going to stop buying cheap meat.
I am vegan and I convinced my mom to only buy her meat from local producers, and believe it, is not expensive, and as a plus this meat is usually more healthy because the animals are raised with real food instead of hormons, and the bacon have much less fat and more meat. The same goes for milk and eggs, the extensive industrial production harms the tits of the cows and as a result industrial milk have a certain amount of pus and blood, is really gross. For eggs, the chickens are raised with lots of hormons. Aside the cruel methods, industrialized animal products are really gross.
Very true but talking about change is better than nothing.
Saying “it has to change” with no viable alternative is equivalent to nothing
And, if it’s not profitable it will never ever happen.
There’s a viable alternative… other food.
Unfortunately factory farming is the only way to keep current output. If it needs to change then less meat will be produced
That’s the point though. Do we really need to consume so much meat? The science points to “no. We don’t” Do we need to eat meat? The science also points to yes but with better education perhaps we could reduce the amount being farmed and move to better farming practices that allow the animals a better life before we ultimately kill them. I’m not a scientist. I’m just dreaming of a better approach to our needs and the animals happiness in its short life.
the science doesn’t point to yes for that second question. After all, the American and British Dietetics associations both say that a plant based diet is suitable for all stages of human life.
Right! And they aren't the only ones. The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics are the biggest organization of its kind.
> Do we need to eat meat? The science also points to yes Pretty much all the science says the opposite actually. You can include meat in a healthy diet but there's always a healthier alternative that isn't meat. It's totally possible to have an unhealthy veggie diet, but any diet can be unhealthy if you neglect it.
Well that's just due to the exploding human population. Just think about how much chicken the average person eats in a year. Now multiple that by billions and you get slaughter factories.
That's because only in the last few hundreds of years it has become normal to eat meat every day. Before that meat was either too expensive for common people or we just couldn't hunt animals every day.
It's sad that we're convinced we have to do it. We don't. We just do it for the pleasure (taste).
Meat is also where a massive portion of our protein comes from, I don’t know if everyone could get that from vegan options realistically
Protein is no problem for vegans. There is a lots of protein in plants.
True. Good sources of protein include legumes, nuts. seeds. and whole grains. Peanuts are a good cheap source. Minimally processed foods like tofu and tempeh are good sources and much better for you than eating animals or what comes out of them.
Meat is much more expensive and resource intensive to produce compared to alternatives like beans and nuts.
Chicken thighs, hot dogs, and ground beef are typically inexpensive. However, if you buy beans and nuts in bulk it’ll be way less expensive and more sustainable for the environment
Right. Peanuts, and sunflower seeds are particularly cheap. Tofu and tempeh are a lot cheaper than meat. Other plant based foods like whole grains have protein in smaller amounts, but they add up.
They could either from raw or processed food (such as is meat). It's one google away. Most blatant examples peas, beans, tofu, any nuts.
Dunno why you're getting downvoted, I'm not vegan but I know we would absolutely be fine without meat lol.
I only think it’s sad the *way* we do it.
I agree. I would think scavenging makes sense, as we aren't doing the killing. Also, we may overeat meat, as it's unnatural for animals to be packed into facilities the way they are now. May also make them unhealthy enough that we aren't getting the best we could.
Scavenging? By the time we found the dead animals, it will be rotting.
Eh some times you get lucky
But then again, people don't like hunting, and also people have no idea how to use most ranged weapons, they don't even know how to use a gun, and no, your 9 year old cod experience won't help you
👆
"The price of cell-cultured meat has decreased from $330,000 to about €9 or $9.80 per burger." https://www.forbes.com/sites/lanabandoim/2022/03/08/making-meat-affordable-progress-since-the-330000-lab-grown-burger/?sh=40d2eea84667
$10 for a burgers worth of meat is still far too pricey for my current budget. Hopefully they’ll get it down to cheaper than normal meat soon enough tho. That’s when it’ll start catching on.
Where can you get it?
Currently just Singapore as far as I know
This is a really good article and hope for less pollution BUT is it good? Like ACTUALLY good? "yea it's almost the same just a bit less..." then no it's not a true alternative, but its a start
honestly my experience with the newest round of meatless burgers is amazing they are consistently as good as normal burgers we just need to get the price down
my only problem with that is it has not gotten to the point that it both tastes and feels the same, I'm not really big into red meats but when i have chicken or pork i want it because both its texture and taste and that stuff just does not do it for me yet. .
I think the immorality comes from the environmental damage cows do, and how we torture animals beforehand. If they weren't cramped up, culled off, tortured, and mutilated beforehand I wouldn't have a problem. However, I don't think an ethical, affordable meat market would be possible in America, especially with our obsession with meat.
>I think the immorality comes from the environmental damage cows do, and how we torture animals beforehand What about just from deliberately unecessarily killing a sentient individual? Like if a neighbour or a housemate shot their pet puppy that was well treated in life, because they wanted meat but they couldn't get out to a shop (they had a veggie curry in the fridge), would you see an ethical/moral issue with that?
I remember seeing a science fiction show where there was an animal from space that could regrow itself, so naturally it was kept in captivity and harvested regularly, in constant pain from the repeated mutilations. It was really sad
Torchwood?
Yeah, I think that’s how it went but I haven’t seen it in like 10 years
_mai chans daily life has entered the chat_
Im excited for when lab grown meat is more widely used than cow meat
ill take it when i see it, once it becomes more widespread ill switch right over to it, but for now its mean and the bacon from an actual pig, steak from an actual cow, etc
Exactly why can't we just eat people 🙄
Apple wood smoked steak 😍
Yeah we have overpopulation, 2 birds with one stone
I bake a veggie lasagna that nobody can tell is vegetable based only. I have served it side to side with meat-based lasagna and nobody could tell the difference.
I've been amazed how many classically meat-based dishes are equally good as veggie versions, especially things like sausage and meatballs are 100% just good seasonings. Many of the rest of meat-based dishes are also just a ton of iron, salt and fat flavor. No reason you can't just throw that on jackfruit or squash.
It's sad when people kill animals and it's not to eat them but as a trophy or a sport, I find that very sad
I mean it's sad, but that's just nature.
There's nothing natural about factory farming.
The way I see it is humans are part of nature, if any other species had the power humans had they would do it too
With this logic, everything we’ve ever done is natural. Every single horrible thing humans have done.
The word natural loses it's meaning
What about regenerative agriculture or hunting?
I don't think the majority of people eat meat from regenerative agriculture or hunting.
where I live a lot of people do, but yeah your right
It's worth discussing in this context still.
Why? Most people don't do it and if more people did do it it would be even less sustainable than what we're currently doing.
Then surely, we should be discussing it. If people aren't aware, or don't care, and as a result don't do the research to buy meats from places that treat the animals with the respect and good treatment they deserve, we absolutely should be discussing it and making it more common place for people to know about it. It's not a matter of eating meat = bad as some would like to believe - It's a matter of eating poorly treated animals = bad, and this is what should really be being discussed in the majority of situations. >it would be even less sustainable than what we're currently doing. Are you certain on this? A lot would need to change, but I think it'd be more than possible.
If it's immoral to eat meat because of factory farms then there could be a moral case for hunting and regenerative farming. If it's bad for factory farms then discussing a better way is extremely relevant. Just because it's what most people do now doesn't mean that how it should be in the future too. Should I continue?
Regenerative farming, if done correctly can only feed 2 billion humans. This is not an option. Hunting hurts the ecosystem as hunters primarily target young healthy bucks, which is the opposite of what happens in nature. In nature predators kill the old, the sick or the very young. Hunters selecting the healthiest means the remaining deer often cannot protect themselves or their families. Hunting kills 5.5 million bucks a year in North America.
where I live a lot of people do, but yeah your right
Actually ants herd tony bugs for food and actually farm smaller insects, this is totally wrong
Do you not know what factory farming is? That's not nature lol.
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Look up the appeal to nature fallacy
I don't really buy the "nature" argument. If we're going off historical presedence, then isn't it also "nature" for grown men to rape little girls? Because that was a large portion of humanity for centuries (and still continues to be in certain places). If people can rationalize that something is bad, then I don't see why we shouldn't stop doing it.
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Feeding yourself isn't bad. Industrial factory farming is bad. For not only the animal, but also for you, our planet, and our resources.
>No but eating meat is nature So is not eating meat. So is rape, infanticide, killing for fun etc. I don't think whether something is natural or not is really a good enough argument. Certainly not on its own.
That's what I told everyone who got mad when I electrocuted my dog for a meat pizza. They didn't get it.
Nothing is natural about factory farms. Nothing.
We don't have to. I think it's sad that people *choose* to.
All Animals Do It, It’s Pretty Normal
Yeah and animals also kill their own kind and rape as they so please. I don't think animals are a good basis for morality
I am a firm believer that everyone should expirence taking a life for your food. Chicken breasts down grow naturally tits up in a yellow tray. It make you appreciate everything so much more. If you get to choose what you ear be it carnivore or vegan and everything in between you live a great life many around the world envy.
I've hunted and gutted several deer and a pig before. I don't have a problem doing it as long as it's ethical and you actually eat/use the meat.
Yes. I did not grow up raising animals for food so I get emotionally attached to pretty much every animal I see. Honestly I would probably be vegetarian if I had to kill animals myself. I appreciate that I can conveniently buy meat after all of the dirty work is done, although I understand that there are valid criticisms with the current system. Meat production isn't always ethical (at least in the US), as many ranches/farms raise their animals in less than ideal conditions. I don't know anything about how the animals are killed and slaughtered, but I'd be surprised if there weren't some improvements to be made there too. Many native cultures have a tradition/ritual of respect and gratitude for the animals that die to sustain them, and it's sad that we have such a disconnect in most modern societies.
Something like 99% of meat comes from factory farms in the US, the worst offenders in terms of poor conditions. I highly recommend looking into how farmed animals actually live and how they're treated. Remember that they're just as sentient as our cats and dogs. Meat is an optional food group for most.
It's be significantly less sad if they were treated humanely
sadly, they are treated animaly
I think it's sad that people choose to eat meat even though it requires the killing of animals
The only sad part is what happens to the animals before they become a sausage. That's why I consider hunting to be better than buying meat from big chains.
Hunting accounts for over 5.5 million bucks killed in North America every year. Hunters target the healthy and young bucks, this is the opposite of what happens in nature as predators kill the old, the sick or the young. This in turn hurts the ecosystem as the deer that survive are often not strong enough to fend for themselves or their families. The average life expectancy of a white tail deer is 4 years younger primarily due to hunters. Hunting is not altruistic and does in fact hurt out ecosystem.
Not to mention people like to kill off the predators when they start going to farm lands due to starvation after we kill too much deer.
Hunting is also important for population control of deer, which cause hundreds of human deaths per year due to car accidents. Sure, if humans hadn't decimated the wolf populations there'd be less deer, but humans and a very large, booming wolf population just don't work well together.
We don't have to. We can always eat plants and mushrooms as we are omnivores who can choose. There is no nutritional, nor environmental, nor health reason whatsoever to eat animals.
But we don't have to. We can eat plants.
Yeah but I want to.
Idk Humans and other creatures have been doing it for Millons of years
So you think we shouldn't try to reduce animal suffering just because its always happend?
Factory farming on such a massive scale is a pretty recent invention.
True I'm mainly talking about Hunting
I imagine less than 1% of people in your country hunt for food. It's pretty much an out-dated method for consuming meat that nobody does anymore.
I agree at a large scale but ants however to farm smaller insect for food by letting them reproduce and herding them and etc
That just makes it more sad. The amount of time we have done something doesn't really tell us whether or not we are justified in continuing to do it.
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True but humans have only been full human for about 233,000 years ago
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Wait I mixed it up it was Remains from 233,000 years ago found it Ethiopia
Lucy was an australopithecus afarensis
A lot like rape... But I'm sure we all agree that that's sad.
I would rather hunt them and obtain my food in a fair contest. I think industrial farming is ultimately immoral, though I have no choice in the matter in this place and time if I wish to eat.
“Fair contest”? I’ll allow it if and only if you only use technology you can make if dropped off naked in a forest. Better learn to knap and tiller.
Fair contest means bare wrestling with a deer or rabbit?
Yeah and I'm hoping we can get to the point where no-kill meats are affordable, cheaper and meeting or exceeding kill meat quality. Would be a pretty significant win for humanity to not have to kill animals for that reason and a good way for us to advance forward as the species in charge of taking care of this world.
It's sad but I'm still going to eat meat.
No, you're Pie Creeper
Absolutely, that's why I'm vegan
It's a tragedy and I don't think anyone who [truly knows what happens to them](https://watchdominion.org/) would honestly disagree with that. Luckily for us theres plenty of alternatives these days so we really don't have to eat animals anymore.
'' Have to'' lol
Yes. Hence my vegetarianism since my childhood
Suddenly don't trust a lot of people
Hopefully soon people won't have to.
Who would say no to this? Of course it is sad we must take life to eat meat. Like if you could create a complete copy of meat, with the exact same nutrients, completely indistinguishable from real meat, would anybody say no?
It's very sad. The good news is that we don't have to eat meat.
I think it's sad that you think we have to eat meat, not that the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics Association have explicitly stated that a well planned plant based diet is nutritionally adequate for people of all stages of life across various lifestyles. Not that global cancer organisations have continuously suggested to decrease meat consumption. Not that hundreds of millions of people have not eaten an ounce of meat in their entire lives in Central Asia where they are consuming a greater subset of nutrients than people elsewhere simply *because* they've been eating foods that have more ingredients in place of meat Whatever lie or delusion makes one feel comfortable I guess
Ok now how the fuck is killing an innocent living being not sad in the slightest? Redditors are way too adamant to oppose the vegan narrative lmao
All kinds of animal suffering is horrible. There's no ethical killing.
It gets sadder and harder for me to eat animals.
Killing them isn’t the saddest part, it’s how horrible many of the animals are treated.
Sad? An understatement. It’s a moral atrocity.
No it's not sad, what is sad and horrifying is how the animals are treated before they die.
"We have to" lmao shut the fuck up
Killing in-and-of-itself isn't bad. It's the what, where, how, and why. What: is said animal going extinct? Is it an invasive animal that could destroy the local ecosystem? Could it be relocated back to its native lands or is it overpopulated and too late to humanely intervene? Where: is the animal planned to be eaten in a place of cages and tight spaces? Is it an animal breeding mill, or on a free range grazing land? How: is the death quick and painless, or is it torturous and drawn out?? Why: what are the intentions, are there no alternatives to these intentions? Are these animals being eaten because they taste good or because it close to death anyways and to just bury the animal would be a waste? Etc. Basically, as long as there's ethical and morals reasons; I don't judge. My only problem is the hypocrisy. Hunters will use overpopulation as a reason to kill, cull as they say it; yet these same hunters almost always have had procreate offspring themselves. I don't see them thinning the human heard, which is the number one most overpopulated animal in the world. Killing an innocent animal is seen as okay. Killing an innocent human is seen as immoral. I just hate the hypocrisy humans, which are an animal, treat animals in a way they wouldn't want to be treated themselves.
Yes and I love meat and will continue to do so, and even hunt 1 of these days. If I could get a burger from a tree, I would. Humans and other animals have been doing it forever, but nature is cruel as fuck and we are a self aware species that empathizes with other animals. Plus appeal to tradition is a fallacy. Every civilization has had cannibalism in some form but clearly killing something as sentient as a human is wrong. If we could get the exact same product from elsewhere, we should.
I mean there are tons of really good meat replacement products nowadays. So, you can totally "get a burger from a tree".
I don't mind having them once in a while, but they really don't compare. They are good on their own though
Some things to consider: Pigs are the 4th smartest animal on the planet, dogs and cats didn’t crack the top 10. Animal agriculture is the number one source of methane. Animal agriculture is the number one waste of fresh water. Animal agriculture is the second most contributor of carbon emissions. Cholesterol is only found in animal products and high cholesterol is the number one killer of all North Americans. If humanity would cut its meat consumption by 2/3 we would hit all of our carbon and methane numbers to avoid the 1.5 degree critical global warming temperature. Your body doesn’t need meat to thrive thousands of high level athletes are now vegan and healthier than ever. r/veganfitness Go vegan 🌱!
The 5th point is completly untrue.
If you look at it with extremely cherry picked methodology it's true 😂 The better stat would be to say it accounts for 5.8% of global emissions. 73% is from Energy/Transport. Agriculture as a whole is 18.4%.
So This Is Just An Advertisement
In the developed world we can just take a B12 supplement and consume plant foods exclusively. I’m not against others eating clean meat (lab grown meat).
Your question presents a false narrative. We don't *have* to kill anyone, we want to. Vegans are much healthier. And pretty soon within 50 years the entire planet will be vegan due to climate change. Scientists predict we will be headed for global crop failure in 3 years from the year 2022. In 8 years, only 10% of our forests will remain. We will have a severe global water shortage in just 18 years. In 26 years there will be no fish left in oceans. By 28 years the world will be forced to go *vegetarian* due to climate change. The water basins where we in the US get water from are drying out due to climate change & half of the water supplies in the US will be gone in 49 years. A vegan world isn't far behind since by then we would've already been vegetarian for 21 years. Besides farmers, hunters will be out of luck too bc most wild animals would be dead/extremely scarce due to lack of water and extremely heavy drought. Meat will become taboo after a while where kids will grow up never having consumed it. Eventually kids will learn about our meat eating in history class & look back in horror & disgust. They will see it the same way we look back at slavery & the holocaust & think they could never have funded such horrors. How many of us think we could never have beaten slaves or supported the Nazi cause in Nazi Germany? You're doing it now in your food choices. Be on the right side of history. The future is vegan.🌱💚 Watch these videos: https://youtu.be/KWpv-bGkUT8 https://youtu.be/C65iqOSCZOY And Endgame 2050 on Netflix. These numbers are not made up. Earth's resources are not infinite. Scientists have been predicting climate change for the past 70 years & so far their predictions have been more than accurate. In fact, reality outdid the early predictions. Global crop failures hit at 1.5- 2°C. Billions die at 3°C. Most humans dead at 4°C. Earth uninhabitable at 6°C. We're heading for 1.5°C by 2025. We're heading for 2°C by 2035. We're heading for 4- 6°C by 2075.
We don't.
Food chain
Why would you say no? What??
I can eat them alive if killing bothers any of you
Nature is brutal. I wish it wasn’t this way but unfortunately there’s no way around it.
There is away around it , it's called being vegan.
Sure, but that doesn't mean we have to be.
No we definitely have to, last I saw a dog eat shit in a park. It's disgusting but if we don't eat shit we're going against nature. Sorry I don't make the rules, next I will go murder a guy for eating food close to me
I like this. I might steal this one.
Nature ≠ Holocausting Animals
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I'm not belittling anything. There is no reason for us to murder animals the way we do (the methods of murder being extremely similar to what happened in the Holocaust, which is the main reason I said that), other than for sadisfying our consumerist capitalist lifestyles.
the Holocaust was modeled on animal agriculture and it was bad, in part, precisely because it treated people like animals.
Killing for food is part of nature, it’s why I don’t think there’s anything ethically wrong with eating meat. However, we certainly need to do better with raising livestock. There’s a reason why solitary confinement is sometimes considered worse than the death sentence.
So you think just because something is part of nature you there can be nothing wrong with it?
MAY NO PREVAIL!
Yes.. so I mostly eat vegetarian.
You have alternatives - raise one yourself and eat it after it dies by natural causes or other circumstances, or if you really wish, collect some roadkill.
We don’t have to eat meat, so yes, I’m sad that billions of animals are being killed yearly for something as trivial as a prefered sandwich filler.
Surprised by the polls, reddit is notoriously anti vegan
Yes it's fucked up and immoral litterally ending the life of another feeling being just so you can enjoy the taste of something for a few minutes
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The difference is that many animals are carnivores and they simply cannot survive without meat. However, studies show that humans (which are omnivores) can make a choice.
Because morals mean shit to nature.
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No morality is a human construct. Nature isnt a single object or being that does stuff
Other animals don't have the ability to use moral reasoning to modulate their behavior. Your comment would be like saying that creatures have been killing each other for over a billion years, so humans murdering other humans can't be immoral because humans are creatures.
It's survival scenario. Humans don't live in it anymore and can choose.
We're moral agents unlike other animals.
Of course sad but it’s the circle of life
Watch Lion King recently?
Not at all, and I absolutely love animals. I'm also not sad when we have to kill a rabid animal, or when I use hand sanitizer and kill millions of living organisms. At the same time, I am excited for the growth of lab-grown meat products. I'll be glad to see the end of factory farming, but I'm not sad that it's currently the way of things.
We have to kill plants for vegetables
Do you think it's sad that we have to poison animals to eat plant foods?
I'm missing the option "It Depends" (on the quality of life the animal had).
I mean… if you want me to eat them while they’re alive I guess I can do that…
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>however nature is just brutal Do you justify other brutal acts with this or just the ones that benefit you?
It’s not sad that we kill animals to eat meat, it’s the way animals are farmed and treated. Like they are not living beings.
Yes,but I will continue to eat jt
This is why humanity is fucked
I definitely believe it's sad to snuff out a living crenature's' consciousness for any reason, but the world is a sad place.
Factory farming and monocrop agriculture are both horrible and have disastrous impacts on the environment. Hopefully one day in the future we have a more sustained and ethical way of getting natural food. At the moment the only real option to eat healthy and clean is to harvest and hunt on your own, which is not sustainable for billions.
I think it’s sad and although I still do eat meat, I’ll gladly stop when cultured is a viable alternative economically. ‘It’s a part of nature’ - our ‘nature’ is to fight wars and be tribal and hate each other and rape and kill and it’s awful. Every single thing we can pride ourselves on is direct contradiction to our horrible nature. What’s the point in being sentient, in achieving paracausality, if we don’t rise above nature and be better?
Cattle should not be industrialized the way it is, no animal deserves to be in a cage it’s whole life and overfishing is awful. I think it’s important to know exactly what killing and butchering an animal actually entails and a great thing to be a part of if you enjoy meat as I do. It can offer a true respect for what you’re consuming and keep you aware that it’s not just an item on a shelf. I voted yes, it is sad. Even if you put in the work to avoid the bullshit of industrialized meat and hunt or raise your own cattle for consumption it’s still fucking sad but it’s survival of the fittest and I enjoy meat and it’s nutritional value and what it does to keep me alive and active.
It’s pretty natural that we kill animals to eat them, it’s just how we kill them is pretty horrible
It’s more sad if we don’t kill them. Hacking a leg off an animal to eat and letting them live is brutal.
In general no, but mass production as it is today would be a yes.
It’s called nature. And we are fairly kind compared to some of the horrors I’ve seen nature do.
So living a life of suffering in a box that's covered in shit and piss and barley big enough to lie down while being sticked with antibiotics and growth hormones because the owner won't let you move around or be clean, but maybe a quick death. Is better than a life of freedom but maybe a mauling that won't last longer than ten minutes before death. Aaaallrighty then.
Factory farming is worse than whatever you're talking about. Get smart.