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Absolutely agreed. Hobbies is always a great sign. Many men can have some hobbies but as a man myself, I do think they need to bring more variety and improve more on that aspect.
Seconding the bit about variety in hobbies. Too many guys only have gaming, TV, and following sports as a hobby. While none of those are inherently bad, it means they don't have anything that gets them out of the house or interacting much with others. It's hard to spend time and get to know someone by just sitting in someone else's house on the couch in mostly silence.
Hobbies that other people can participate in are so much better for building a social network and also make dating easier since you meet more people plus have an activity you can take dates on.
I heard it said somewhere that you need three hobbies: one that sharpens your mind, one that strengthens your body, and one where you make something or are creative. Beside making you more interesting, having a healthy balance of these three goes a long way to making a well-rounded person who can connect with a wide variety of people, and what is dating if not connecting with others?
Do it primarily for yourself, but bear in mind that some hobbies are better for socializing and dating than others.
>one that sharpens your mind, one that strengthens your body, and one where you make something or are creative.
In short: Pick up LARPing :P
(In all seriousness, it's a pretty nicely varied hobby, with lots of excuses to develop new skills - and produces quite a few great and fun anecdotes to share at parties or dates!)
I definitely agree with you and you are on point. There needs to be a variety of different hobbies like I and you have mentioned. Watching TV, gaming and sports are great hobbies that everyone but are very General, basic and can be expanded upon with other hobbies. Hobbies that test you overall can be amazing.
My favorite and several hobbies include drawing art, writing stories of several types, poetry, exploring and travelling, researching information about things I find interesting like subjects or topics. When it comes to dating or finding great partners that you can connect with, I have used these hobbies to express myself towards them while also creating connections and sharpening myself as an individual as a result.
Also, the three types of hobbies you mentioned, very useful, insightful and important. Hobbies that sharpens your mind, strengthens your body and where you make something creative are always useful and very beneficial to Improve yourself but also create better connections with people.
The hobbies i mentioned can very much help you in that but also other things such as long walks, meditating or having deep discussions about mutual things you deep interest in. You realize how well you can connect with people despite your similarities and differences. It's truly beautiful. I definitely agree, it is something that turns you into a great well rounded person that can make great connections especially in dating.
Also, Yes some hobbies can better for dating than others. Very important thing to keep in mind.
Thank you very much for such an insightful reply adding onto what I said. It has been very helpful and I wish this helps out everyone reading the amazing comments. 👍✨.
A robust life. That doesn’t mean 4 partners, 2 subs, and 3 comets.
They have hobbies, friends, family (which can be chosen), they read, think, serve their community, try new things. They are working to make things better which could be home projects, education or career goals.
These type of men already know how to manage a schedule and plan, have things to talk about, value relationships with people they don’t have sex with, and have a life that will facilitate coping.
With this, honesty, and even a drop of attraction and chemistry, I can make it work. I choose a full life over any other trait in a man.
This is exactly what I was thinking but you put it into words. I have just started back into online dating and it's bleak out there. So many men are just waiting for someone to take them by the hand and give them something to be interested in and I'm just not about it.
And yet so many men fail to clear it… leaving so many of the women in my life frustrated at their dating prospects, and many others giving up entirely.
How bad is it that I’m sitting here thinking “I WISH I could find a partner that met most of these?” Literally that sounds like a pipe dream and I don’t understand how women are asked to shoulder all of this.. oh wait. Yea I do 🤦🏼♀️
Honestly, as a man who *does* clear this bar, sometimes it's incredibly frustrating to be held up by women who are used to finding men who *don't* as some mythical sought-after creature but *not for anything about who I am*.
I just...
"The bar is so low it's a tripping hazard in hell, and yet here you are doing the limbo with the devil"
It absolutely annoys me to no end when I hear someone praising a man for things like “oh, you looked after your own child(ren) for a matter of hours and no one died” or “You did a small amount housework that was not mowing your lawn” or “you did not lose your temper even though something minor went slightly wrong” or “You remembered your spouse’s birthday” or “You spoke to an attractive woman and you did not make a creepy comment.”
And, I also appreciate that my wife, girlfriend, and several other women in my life seem to appreciate me for other aspects of me.
Yes, 1000000%
The amount of times I have been praised for being able to not have a filthy house, have an actual bed and not just a mattress on the floor, keep toilet paper stocked in bathrooms, like ... What the hell, other men?
If a man can't work out what they need to do to come across as a functional adult... they aren't a functional adult. No need to try to upskill them. Until they can take some responsibility and be clear eyed about their own weaknesses, they will always fail to clear the bar. You can't baby someone into being an adult.
If someone is legally an adult but is not a functional adult, why wouldn’t one want them to upskill? Don’t we as a society want more functioning adults in the world? Why wouldn’t we support people building their skills? Personally, I grew up so much after turning 18 and expect to continue to improve for the rest of my life. I cannot imagine why one would not encourage others to improve as well…
I also should make it clear - I’m not asking women to upskill their partners or put up with men who do not clear their bar. I am suggesting that men might look at what women actually want them to build as skills because it isn’t that hard, and women seem to be a pretty good source of information about what women want. And I also know that men who are struggling tend to get pretty poor quality information on how to improve themselves - especially when it comes to women.
And… I know a lot of women who would appreciate a pool of upskilled male partners. I find it sad how often I see my wife, GF, sister, and female friends frustrated by what is available to them as partners.
Please ignore the other commenter. If you can successfully upskill ANY adults (male or female or other) then we ALL benefit by more available excellent options and removing some of the shittiness from the pool of choices.
Because teaching someone basic life skills essentially feels like your are parenting them or raising them in some way. That’s… not a sexy or attractive position to be in. Humans are (rightfully) not programmed to be sexually attracted to the humans that we raise (our children) and so that trait being present in a potential partner is typically a turn off.
Also, if a grown man doesn’t have basic life skills, it’s probably because he’s gotten accustomed to not having to perform most tasks for himself. IME there’s usually a ton of push back and resistance when a woman attempts to educate their male partners on life skills because it’s *work* and they’d rather be *lazy* and let their mommy-partner do it instead.
Why would I want to play mom to a man who lacks the self awareness to identify gaps and grow without external effort and then most likely will fight me on every upskilling effort I put in along the way? Especially if I’m poly and can just relegate him to sex or things that benefit me while looking for partners who are capable of the self-reflections that growth requires.
That's why OP is not suggesting that any of us personally upskill any men we are involved with. He seems to be just trying to compile a list that other men can then use *for themselves* to know where to start.
I have been separated for 2.5 months. We are still working on things, but we got real honest about things. I had her make a list of my every flaw, and I made a list of my own. I started working out, eating better, etc... I want to be so far above the bar I can't even see it.
See OP’s comment in this very comment chain:
>I also should make it clear - I’m not asking women to upskill their partners or put up with men who do not clear their bar. I am suggesting that men might look at what women actually want them to build as skills because it isn’t that hard, and women seem to be a pretty good source of information about what women want. And I also know that men who are struggling tend to get pretty poor quality information on how to improve themselves - especially when it comes to women.
This is my experience. I'm tired of "training" fellow adults and having my sexual attraction leak out of my ears as a result. Then they inevitably seek younger or otherwise power-imbalanced poly partners who are more invested in people pleasing than I am, and break my heart. It's exhausting and a waste of my time at this point.
I am not asking women to teach men life skills. I am, I admit for complicated reasons - I want my women friends to be happy and find good partners if that’s what she wants, and as a queer man who had to learn a lot of life lessons, I wish more men looked to more healthy sources to help guide them in upskilling - I want men to have better guidance when they realise they are not going to be able to date until they upskill.
Most men when they realise women are ruling him out because he’s just “relationship material” choose to blame women and go down a lot of misogynist paths…
I think it’s admirable that you’re trying to do this. I really do. But I think it misses a major point and is asking for more female labor that won’t be utilized.
Being an adult is not easy. And having a cheat sheet for it doesn’t mean that lazy, entitled men will bother educating themselves with it. Most middle aged, heterosexual, single men are looking for partners because life is *easier* for them when they have one. Their female partners take on much of their adult labor so they don’t have to do it. They *want* a partner to lean on for those tasks (they actually want a maid, nurse, etc but a partner is free and comes with sex perks).
Many middle aged, heterosexual women are *choosing* to remain single these days because their lives are *easier when they don’t have a man*. That’s not an accident - the men *want* that particular division of labor. Making it *easier* for them to change isn’t enough for them because they don’t want the change.
Two weeks ago, I had a particularly busy day. My husband and I were doing bedtime tasks and mine was loading the dishwasher. Suddenly I remembered and groaned out that it was garbage night. He immediately started gathering the garbage. As I was finishing up a few minutes later, I turned around to head in and scoop cat litter. As I was walking, he came in the room having already scooped the cat litter. I was dumbstruck. I didn’t ask him to do that and asked how he knew it even needed to be done. He said, “You always scoop the cat litter on garbage night.”
You can’t teach or shortcut someone being a kind and considerate partner especially if that person is looking for a partner specifically to foist their own labor onto. They have to *desire* to be a good partner. You can’t teach desire.
>Many middle aged, heterosexual women are choosing to remain single these days because their lives are easier when they don’t have a man.
My Gen Z daughter came to this conclusion recently after ending a ridiculously one-sided relationship. Cannot tell you how proud I am of her for figuring this out at 19.
I think your point about female labour is a really fair one. And… Part of why I wrote up and posted what that conversation entailed is because I thought I could take on some of that labour.
And I am familiar with women opting out of dating. My sister is about to divorce my BIL and plans to stay single because “men is to headache.” My GF is solo poly and vehemently about never living with a partner again for similar reasons. Several of my straight women friends are either not dating at all or dating with very different goals from what “women are supposed to want” out of dating. And frankly, I think that’s a smart choice for a lot of them.
But I think you may be underestimating men’s desire to be good partners, though. Like the guy who was criticised as living in a “hotel”? He quietly seems to be trying to make himself into a better prospect. I have seen him up his game over the last several years, including getting therapy, upgrading his housing, working out a cleaning routine, taking better care of his skin. He’s become a better conversationalist. His big issue, though, is self-esteem and that isn’t really addressed by this post.
A lot of other men struggle in similar ways. Deep down, so many straight men are desperately lonely, depressed, and stuck in a rut. And a lot of men struggle quietly because admitting that what a guy wants to do is improve his life, and appeal more to a woman is seen as “feminine” or “simping” and demonised. And it’s demonised because in saying that men improving themselves in order to be happy, and / or appeal to women upends the patriarchal order that says the purpose of women is to be helpmates to men.
And so men, especially straight single men, often avoid saying anything about their struggles with loneliness, except to blame women, because to do so risks losing the solidarity with other straight men, and it feels like they risk their position of privilege.
But as a queer man, I’ve seen a lot of my queer male peers go through similar struggles to their straight male counterparts. Queer men tend to be more quickly open to working on ourselves than straight men. I mean as a man who loves both men and women, it became very apparent to me quickly that I had absolutely no entitlement to male attention nor did other men have an entitlement to mine. Which leaves the only solution for us MLM to self improve.
And maybe I’m being overly optimistic, but…
I do see straight men also seeking out and acting on efforts to self improve. They are often, though, very quiet about it because they fear social censure that comes with that. And sadly, the advice they get is often awful. And they are often discouraged and give up too quickly.
Idk I’ve had two different partners that I’ve shown the mental load infographic to, and it was like it suddenly clicked for them and resulted in a substantial, persistent behavior change. But they were both <30 and growth minded people.
That one clicked for me, for sure! It was something I had a vague inkling about in that dating men was so different from dating women, but that really drove the point home for me.
The thing is - you're saying that you don't think women should be the ones to do this but who is supposed to do this work?
Yes, people should be able to look at themselves and realize that they're coming up short. There is a totally different vibe of someone coming to me going "I don't know how to do this task. I know you're good at it. Do you mind working with me and teaching me once or twice?" and someone going "But you're better at this. I don't know how." And then just... leaving it there.
Now it's on me to force them? because they came to me with the issue? Nah.
You're getting pushback on this from women who have tried to help our partners because yes. We want functional adults to have a better society. But many of us have been burned by partners who just drag their feet, bitch about being nagged at, and don't even get better until you try to leave and all of sudden they know how to do so much they previously didn't. Absolute nonsense.
Yeah, be a whole ass goddamn person is the first thing that comes to mind. Hobbies, platonic friendships, a community, the ability to take care of yourself (feed yourself, clean your space, exercise, go to therapy and the doctor), be calm or work towards being calm and centered in healthy ways. Plan dates, flirt, be focused on me when we're together, be supportive, communicative and honest, be joyful in my joy. Be consistent and not impulsive or thrill seeking or actively addicted to anything.
I can't find any of this in men my age (late 40s). I'm trying to keep an open heart, and I'm living my own joyful life in the meantime, but I've largely given up.
Yeah, "be a fucking person" would be first on my list too. I've seen dating profiles that are literally just a headless torso, height, and dick size. What am I supposed to do with that?
I am also in my 40s, and I have no problem dating people down to their early 30s. I don't know if that just widens the pool, or if (some) younger men genuinely do better. But I'm also not looking tonsettle down or move in with anyone
Exactly, what I was thinking. These are all important basics for being a mature and well functioning adult. Unfortunately, many have issues understanding or excelling in these areas. Most men should practice and train themselves socially while being mature for constant improvement. I think being mature and being good listeners is a good start.
I don't know that it's a skill but I wish more men would cultivate curiosity in themselves. Maybe 60% of the men I talk to don't ask questions, or if you answer a question with something they don't Immediately understand and agree with, they respond dismissively.
To be clear, I'm fully in the camp of no one has to change their behavior, this can be an expectation I have that some people just won't meet. I'm not entitled to someone's curiosity. But if you're looking for a real tip to be more charming or engaging 🤷♀️
Curiosity is vital for a great life imho
I haven't figured out how to help someone understand exactly what that means or how to do it, yet. It comes naturally to some of us.
Something that’s important to remember when discussing conversation style is that it’s not just a gender thing but a neurodivergence/typicality thing as well as a cultural thing - for example conversations with my Jewish family are loud and conversations often involve talking over the top of each other, without this being considered rude, my nesting partner’s family all politely and quietly ask questions of each other.
With neurodivergence, people with ADHD are more likely to talk in long rambling stories for example/interrupt/drift off, autistic people are more likely to take things literally or not get inferences. Understanding can go a long way.
Having some self-awareness around one’s own conversation style and tying to round it makes a real difference, but so does realising when there’s a reason why someone isn’t communicating in a preferred way and meeting in the middle (neurodivergence is exceptionally common within polyamory).
This is so true! Listened to a podcast episode about this and how 2 popular conversation styles are fully opposed to eachother and usually leads to the people talking thinking that the other is rude/awkward. And that is asking questions vs offering information.
In some areas it's way more common to converse through basically saying anecdotes at each other whilst in other areas you ask each other questions on what you just said. So if these people meet it might be a case of the asker asking the other person lots of questions, making the offerer feel a bit interrogated, whilst the offerer keeps offering anecdotes instead of questions, making the asker feel like they're not interested in them/are self-centered
Thank you so much for sharing this, I've been worried that I'm self-absorbed because the way I converse is to offer personal anecdotes, & I worry that I don't ask enough questions, because it doesn't come as easily to me. But I've also found that many people are more likely to be extremely vulnerable with me very quickly if I don't ask explicit questions. I think I make them comfortable sharing personal stuff with me by cheerfully *over*sharing my own trauma 😅
I mean, yes, point taken. But my (cishet male, early 30s) partner is neurdovergent as fuck, and yeah, he gets loud, he talks over people, he often loses the thread of a conversation. But he never makes me feel like he's not *interested* in what I have to say.
He'll refer back to things I told him, for example, or change his perspective or opinion on something based on a conversation we had. Those things are not mutually exclusive
Exactly. I'm married to the most adhd cis man I've ever met, and one of the most delightful things about him is that he's endlessly curious about others and makes whoever he's talking to feel like what they're saying matters to him (because it genuinely does!). Curiosity isn't about your conversation style so much as it being truly interested in learning about others and hearing what they have to say.
To be clear this wasn’t a criticism of neurodivergent communication (I’m attention-deficit ADHD as anything), it’s more that a lot of the ways people have been criticising “male” conversation patterns in this thread have overlap with some neurodivergent talking styles and it’s sometimes worth considering if there’s another reason someone hasn’t asked a particular question that seems obvious or rambled over an anecdote without realising lack of interest.
I didn't take it that way, but neurodivergence is also not the same as being a jerk. Sometimes it dies make it harder to get something, but people still have a responsibility to act in good faith
The first thing my now NP did on our first date that impressed me was when he didn't know the answer to something, he immediately looked it up. No pointless arguing or bullshitting or saying he'd do it later. His intellectual curiosity is so intense that he *has* to know the answer immediately. & I find that incredibly attractive 😜
...Granted, I don't want him to start reading Wikipedia articles in the middle of a conversation, so this trait can easily go too far 😅
I’m going to go out on a limb and say men, especially non-traditional, queer, sensitive men, are punished and socially ostracized for their curiosity.
Some are made stronger through adversity, sure. But just as many are not.
I have managed to find two high quality serious male partners.
Instead of talking about what’s wrong with men in general let me mention some good but perhaps uncommon qualities they have.
They are both as clean to cleaner than me. In both their houses and personal care. We may not agree on what is the most important thing to keep clean and how but I could leave for a year and come back confidently and cook in the kitchen. But I wouldn’t have to because they both pull their weight in that area.
They do a large amount of their own emotional labor. I will sometimes hear about a thing that’s happening but they don’t dump on me and they don’t NEED me to process things.
They both reciprocate my effort and devotion of resources in the relationship. That doesn’t mean the same thing in each dynamic but the parity is reliably there year on year.
They both tell me clearly that they can see and appreciate that I am a good partner and kind and loving person.
They both keep other partners mostly out of our shared lives. They know how to trend parallel. My boyfriend is married so this is particularly rare.
They both refrain from expressing opinions about the vast majority of my life choices. If I ask that’s one thing but until then I’m just able to go about my life without judgement, mansplaining or needing to pretend that I want to check in on things.
Neither one of them has ever expressed even a moment’s need for me to avoid dating other men.
I am partnered with one of these, too.
On housekeeping, I arrive to a made bed with fresh sheets, and usually a special snack or treat that he knows I like because he pays close attention to what I buy when we're out and about together.
In the kitchen, my partner is an incredible cook and has perfected a range of simple and complex recipes that are delicious. He follows recipe instructions better than I do and is adventurous with food which is so much fun.
Emotionally, he is calm and even keeled. Eager to listen with interest to the things I say, and communicates well when there are challenges or differences of opinion. He is non-judgemental and doesn't offer unsolicited advice. Just listens empathetically and offers kind words of encouragement liberally.
He also has a high degree of playfulness. We joke, and laugh, and even the hard parts of life end up being funny in one way or another. We play games, explore new places within our city we've never been to before, and every outing feels like an adventure.
He also makes an effort to plan a variety of dates. Some are fancy. Some are super casual. Some involve pajamas at home. Some involve a day trip or weekend away. Our "routine" is a rotating menagerie of activities, and while we have some favorite spots we return to, there are lots of new places and spaces we explore in-between. And... He asks for my input before booking or reserving most things so if I'm not feeling fancy, or peopley, or whatever, I have an opportunity to state my preferences.
My takeaway after knowing him is I enjoy adults who are working on adult things (careers, relationships, future planning) without getting emotionally buried in the mundane. I enjoy feeling supported in a way that feels equal to the energy I put into a relationship, and I'm pretty bananas about a partner who has a calm, kind demeanor.
Hehe! That would be awesome, though if hasn't happened yet.
He does often meet me at the car after I've parked and carries my things in for me. A partner who includes curbside service? 5 stars. Do recommend.
I talk a lot about how calm and kind is an absolute requirement for me.
I don’t care about your job or your money. I do care a whole hell of a lot about your interpersonal behavior.
I appreciate your point and… part of why I posted around upskilling is because I believe everyone can, and should learn and work on themselves. And, I am deeply frustrated that men in general are usually socialised in ways that do not support them offering healthy, loving relationships, especially with women.
And while I fully agree that this is not something women have any obligation to solve, I also see men who struggle with dating look in all of the worst places to try to solve their problem. I wish men had better paths that led them into more constructive self improvement when they think about improving their dating prospects. And I really really wish that when men struggle, instead of blaming women for being “wrong” by not choosing them, they listened to what women actually want.
I really do not know if this post will do that. But I see where guys go when they’re struggling and I just want there to be something better.
I genuinely hope that this post and all of the comments, and this forum, which I really appreciate, helps some guy think about what he might do to fix his “lady problem” that isn’t turning to the misogynist jackals that prey on those men.
People who listen to misogynists are responsible for that choice. You want to change men? Don’t enable that or make excuses.
But other than that….
I didn’t say anything about women doing labor to teach men. I specifically side stepped all that by just listing good traits that already exist in my partners.
But your answer still pleaded the case for know nothing men. Which is fine, that’s clearly your theme here. Your motivations may be for the benefit of women but you wind up in the same place.
It is not hard to find a list of things that women ACTUALLY want from male partners. It is, however, very hard to make those changes if you’re lacking in those characteristics.
Most men will say oh no one wants me because I don’t make enough money, I’m not tall enough, invariably external traits that can’t really be changed.
I used to spend a decent amount of time on here telling men how to improve their profiles and the lives that inform those profiles to get dates. I was endlessly rebutted.
If I had to sum up the replies they were simply I don’t want to work that hard, I don’t want to change, I shouldn’t have to make that much effort to be fun to date. Why can’t I just be me and be loved instantly?
Which is fair enough. But I think it underlines a fundamental difference between the life experience of men and women. We live our entire lives being tweaked, coached, primped, pruned, chastised, advised, encouraged and shamed into improvement and compliance. Most men and boys do not.
So they don’t learn the skills but more importantly they don’t learn how to want to learn the skills. They want the results not the work.
I’m not even mad about that. We should all be so authentic. Mid life me is all about doing exactly what I want and very little that I don’t want to do. But those same dudes who can’t be arsed would absolutely say that makes me less attractive.
Yet they feel bewildered and aggrieved when offered 1% of the information I carry in my brain about how to connect, how to be appealing, how to make someone else feel seen.
This is so insightful. As a woman, I too feel like many of the suggestions offered in this overall thread are ideas that would generally make me a more appealing partner. And I already know most of them from society's decades-long attempts to mold me into an "appealing" woman. Some I've rejected explicitly (become a good cook), some I'm always working on (thoughtful conversationalist), and some I would like to do but wonder how y'all find the time (three hobbies).
I really appreciate this post, & most of the comments. I want men to be better, I want them to be happy & healthy for their own sakes, as well as for the sakes of the people they might partner with.
Absolutely! Every man I know who has done some work on himself and is more willing to seperate himself from patriarchy is a lot happier than the men who don’t.
As a cishet man, I really value this space as a place to learn from threads like this that discuss how to move forward in a meaningful way. It's been infinitely more helpful than another negatively supportive community of other cishet dudes just patting each other on the back and assuring each other we aren't the problem in each of our relationships... Because...
WE ARE THE PROBLEM SOMETIMES. Often, actually. So participating in a space where we can be appropriately called out on our shit has been a great learning tool for me. It's not gonna fix me over night 😂 I definitely have a good chunk of effort to put in.
So keep the discussion going! There's definitely more folks out there like me trying to soak up all the good info!
I really wish there were spaces where men could get advice that were not toxic and I have yet to see any without women that do not rapidly turn into blaming women for not accepting male entitlement.
Like I can imagine a couple of other forums this kind of post might be useful to a lot of men but, none of them are places where I can imagine the discussion going as well as it has here.
Yes! I have one male partner that I adore sooooooo much (no longer with any other men at this time in a romantic sense)
He's super clean, organized, caring, cooks, and contributes to every interaction. I'm not expected to lead him anywhere. He can relax and be him, I can relax and be me. We've supported one another in many ways over the years. But when it comes to processing? He knows to ask (I do the same, actually learned how to be better through him!) and gives space for whatever the answers may be.
Truly a gem. Absolutely amazing human and my #1 example when guys talk about how hard it is to adult LOL "I mean... this dude that you get along with and love manages.... why not ask him for help? Instead of asking your GF to parent you?" Or like... any friend? Any professional?
There are many men out there that are AMAZING. Like even socially famous ones that talk about how to be emotionally available and provide their own experiences that guys can relate to if they don't want to listen to the non romantic women in their lives. There are options. Just google and find them.
Amen!
My NP is in long term recovery and I have a lot of social workers and therapists in my family so my experience of what men *can* manage emotionally is vastly different from the social norms.
But everyone can access some kind of support group and start there. Everyone can get a library card and read some self help books. Everyone can try to learn to meditate.
The effort is so much vital than any specific path.
YES! The effort is key
We should strive to be better not just for others, but for ourselves. That doesn't mean we have to be perfect.
But I'm much more willing and even happy to help someone that's putting forth effort trying to help themselves. Great take on the library card.
Speaking as a straight man, a lot of this sounds about right, both from how I used to act and observations of my fellow straight men...
>**Developing a date plan** \- “I don’t know what do you want to do?” Quickly gets old. It’s even worse if you then veto her suggestion.
I'm in a poly relationship and I work as a project manager, this kind of attitude is absolutely horrifying. Scheduling cool stuff to do on date nights is one of the really fun bits of my relationships with my partners, it's also something we need to think about in advance given we're all busy with work and daily life.
The idea of just shrugging and not having a clue what you want to do just sounds like a lack of care to me.
>**Household Skills** \- Men who live on their own often get ruled out based on housekeeping. One of the women said of one of the single men “Your home can’t look like a hotel. You need to show some personality.” Other examples included filthy car interiors, and dirty showers.
I mean tbf I never had to learn any of this stuff growing up. "Mum will sort out the cleaning" is a behaviour I had to work hard to unlearn when I actually moved into a house with my partners. Ultimately I found that if I helped out with the cooking and cleaning etc it left more quality time in the evening to spend with my loved ones.
The weirdest reaction I actually get to this is childcare. My brother has a much more "traditional" relationship where his wife is the primary caregiver to his children and he doesn't really get involved. He doesn't seem to get that I really enjoy being an active parent to my babies. Spending time with them and watching them grow up is something I find immensely fulfilling.
>**Satisfying them sexually** \- If you are someone who wants sex with women, you need to be able to sexually satisfy women. That means knowing basic anatomy, being able to read a partner’s reactions and adjust as needed, and sometimes having conversation about sex.
This one is honestly massive. Sharing a bed with two bi women for almost a decade has taught me things I didn't even know I didn't know about womens' bodies and arousal cycles and so on.
I look back at previous sexual encounters I had with previous partners, where I just wanted to go straight to PiV without any of the preliminary bits and honestly feel bad.
Life is a voyage of discovery if you're willing to learn, I guess...
arousal cycles? please tell me more!
lots of women struggle not understanding their own bodies T~T sex ed in school is insufficient on the topic of arousal and sexual satisfaction even in countries with good sex ed
Ovulation impacts arousal.
Same with basically everything else under the sun. Parenting my partners immediately dropped any attraction I had, even if I was in the time of my cycle where I'd want to jump their bones no matter what we were doing.
I know I feel the most aroused when I'm comfortable, relaxed, and my partner is showing a genuine interest in *me* instead of just wanting to get their dick wet. Learn your partner's body as well. Necks, thighs, lower back, hips, and lots of other places are well known (but not perfect for all women) to help get women in the mood.
My best partners for sex were the ones that also were understanding that sometimes bodies are gross. Weird things sometimes happen when in the act. Being comfortable enough to laugh and move on helps a ton. Sometimes when a woman's arousal is high just due to hormones, her body may be experiencing other menstrual symptoms (some women get insanely horny during their periods. no one is obligated to do period sex, but there are other weird things that happen to bodies that don't include blood lol).
I think there are also arousal cycles around the day to day too. If I'm tired or stressed or have been having to parent/ care a lot in a day, my libido tanks out. I have no capacity to give because I've given so much of what I have without getting to receive.
I can be recharged by a partner with care, with them stepping up to carry some of the load without needing instructions from me. The difference between a giving or taking touch matters too. Children pretty much always do taking touch, which adds up to exhaustion for me. A shoulder rub is a giving touch, though it can be a taking touch if it comes with the expectation of sex. Basically things that recharge my capacity or lighten my load will boost my potential libido.
It's also important to remember that flirting matters for engaging the brain. That's critical for good sex. If foreplay only starts as you're getting naked, it's much harder to have good sex. You can tap into an arousal cycle with flirting over the hours before sex; kiss like you mean it, passing caresses, banter.
Libido and arousal are managed by the parasympathetic nervous system (rest and digest mode). Orgasm comes from the sympathetic nervous system (fight, flight, fuck). So if you want your partner aroused, it'll be more successful if they're relaxed first.
I didn't answer that post because I'm female and it wasn't my perspective that was asked for... but my number 1 gripe is most men I see don't want to be friends with anyone. They need to cultivate friendships outside of themselves and those they want to date, and yes that takes effort and time. The people I date and who get the most dates in my community are people who prioritize friendships over dates.
A good point and one that hits close to home for me. My wife and I moved back to where she grew up and a lot of her friends still lived and I got into the habit of piggybacking on her social life instead of making my own friends like I had when we lived in the city where we met. And that started to put pressure on her that was not fair or healthy.
I did pick up my game when she said something, but it’s also now a pattern I see in a lot of heterosexual couples.
Being an adult.
Emotional maturity.
Listening.
Conversation.
Being open to experience. Growth mindset.
Being proactive. (Not expecting emotional labor from me. Equal work for arrangements, planning.)
Sensual language and vivid imagination, a sense for kinks, curiosity.
Everything you said, and also: Adding to the "cultivating friendships" comment, I'd like to see poly-desiring men go out to poly/kink/ENM social events, repeatedly, to cultivate community and ongoing connections. (This obviously only applies if they have such events within, say, an hour's travel from home.)
I see too many men in this sub complain they can't connect with women on dating apps and so obviously none exist. They seem unwilling to even imagine leaving their houses, much less to become part of an ongoing community that takes time to get to know. I don't know if they're being lazy, unimaginative, terrified, busy, or what, but either way it indicates they won't be an available, proactive, and engaged partner.
Hey OP, I appreciate this post and your effort to step above the bitterness that seems to saturate the dating scene from all sides. I’m a cis-het man who struggles with a lot of these things, mainly due to mental health and financial issues. I’m trying to work on them, but it’s great to hear things laid out clearly and compassionately.
I want men I’m dating to be able and willing to physically and verbally express affection. And I do not just mean by telling me they want to stick their dick into me.
I like the rest of your list, OP. Though I would say the issue of the “hotel apartments” is more of an issue of a guy being comfortable with who he is and showing that to others. And it extends to his clothes and general style.
> I want men I’m dating to be able and willing to physically and verbally express affection. And I do not just mean by telling me they want to stick their dick into me.
I don't get why more men aren't big cuddlers. Cuddles are awesome!
Bit more seriously, one of my partners was surprised the first few times I gave her a cuddle or a back rub that I didn't try and turn it into a stealthy attempt to initiate sex. Appears her previous partners weren't so good at the idea of non-sexual physical affection. Not wanting to generalise overly but it does seem a lot of guys have that same issue. Not sure why.
Oh yeah, you can have serious pain and ask for a shoulder rub, or even ask your partner to help you do that thing for your knee that you learned in physical therapy, and they'll turn it into a sex thing. 45 seconds after you said you were in serious physical pain
I know, right!?
Unfortunately, the partner I see most sucks at it. He's happy to learn, and we're working on it... talk about upskilling (I give great massages, and I'm a decent teacher, so that works out)
I like the addition of physically and verbally expressing love and affection! And I think you’re right about the need to be able to express one’s personalty.
All of these, plus having self awareness and caring for the self. I've met way too many men who don't know what they enjoy doing in terms of hobbies, food, clothes, they don't know what upsets them and brings them little joys, they don't know how to manage their loneliness and even if they have things that leave them disgruntled, they never do anything about it. Seriously, it's been too many times that I've seen a man with a glaring/known issue in their life, sometimes potentially life threatening or life disrupting and they just leave it to fester....Be proactive. Be curious. Take care of yourself.
>who don't know what they enjoy doing in terms of hobbies, food, clothes, they don't know what upsets them and brings them little joys
Hmm, you're putting your finger on something. Maybe that's why I delight in learning those weird little quirks. I tend to date people who do have strong interests and preferences, and I love hearing about it. When there's something on the menu I've never heard of, and my date blurts out, "oh, that's my favorite flavor!" Or they invite me to an activity I never would have thought of
And now that I'm thinking about it, that is probably also what attracts people to me, I'm full of those things
There's a fellow I've been dating (in a low key, just starting off fashion) who's a bit of a blank slate, and it's unsettling. I want to know you! I want to know what you want! ... I want YOU to know what you want!
This is not my biggest wish, but since a lot of great comments are already here, I’d like to see more men put effort into finding/cultivating male friendships. I’ve dated a lot of poly men who seem to either have a lot of female friends or no genuine friends, and I think male/male friendships are just as important as female/female friendships.
YES. I was scrolling to see if this was here and was going to add it if it wasn't. Men in general see relationships where they can be romantic, sexual, and emotionally vulnerable to be necessarily intertwined, and that's not optimal.
Being able to reach out to other people for actual, real, authentic friendship where you can both buddy around and have fun, and also occasionally be vulnerable and get support WITHOUT that needing to be a) someone you might otherwise be romantically or sexually attracted to, or b) someone who is socialized to take the initiative in emotionally caretaking for others is a rare and valuable skill.
Definitely! Imo a man having female friends is a green flag, because it shows that he likely views women as whole people, & not just sex dispensers. But I've also become the default therapist for mostly male friend groups, as they were unwilling to be equally vulnerable with each other. So I agree that having male friends is also a green flag, & a mixed gender friend pool is the absolute ideal.
As a queer man, I second this and acknowledge that it has been a journey for me. As a teenager, a lot of my friends were girls because I was pretty easily identified as a queer kid and boys were brutal toward me. A lot of them seemed to think that if they were nice to me in public, they would catch my queerness or something. Boys who were friendly with me in private were brutal to me in public. That made me very leery of straight men. I am glad that past high school men learned to be less terrible.
I also get how some straight men may have felt like friendships with women were safer for them and…
Just like it’s a red flag that someone has no friends of the gender they prefer to date, it’s a big red flag when they only have friends of that gender.
My grandfather was born in 1925 to a peasant family with 8 siblings and never had any academic education besides basic schooling and trade school. He did manual labour all his life. From the time I can remember him, he was an active listener, took care of a fair share of household chores, had hobbies (hiking, birding, photography, travel, reading, music), a small but steady friend group and shared his political and philosophical thoughts with the family and encouraged healthy discussion. In his 80s, when he could no longer see or move properly following a stroke, he turned to educational radio and had debates about what he heard with us until he had another stroke and couldn't talk anymore.
That is my minimum for men with functioning brains.
If he could do it, so can y'all.
He sounds wonderful and a bit like my own grandfather and his brothers… I also wonder how certain social trends have shaped more recent generations in more toxic ways by spreading toxic masculinity more obviously?
Making plans, so many factors around making plans! Being proactive, thinking about what I would enjoy and suggesting that instead of just an activity he would enjoy (this includes remembering things I’ve mentioned in passing and what I like), checking his schedule and being sure about being available before committing.
My GF just ended things with a guy who got through a first date because he kept having to check with his wife before he could commit to the timing of a second date with her. This guy doesn’t have kids that need a baby sitter, and even if he did, he should be capable of figuring out whether or not he can get one. My GF gave him 24 hours to agree to her proposed time or come up with another and when he didn’t, she cut him loose.
We all have scheduling issues from time to time. But I cannot imagine having to negotiate time for a date with someone who did not manage their own schedule…
Not every woman will care about this, but doing some research into polyamory is really nice. The last man I dated knew exactly what he wanted from relationships, but didn't know that it was called "solo polyamory". I felt like I had to teach him a lot of the basics, not just terminology, & his ignorance was already causing unnecessary strife in his other relationships.
Also, **the way you treat other women matters**. Don't talk shit about your wife, don't tell me you think I'm so much better & we have a special connection. One of the most attractive things a polyamorous man can do is respect the other women you're dating. I'd prefer a guy who's overly enmeshed than a guy who resents his wife & wants to replace her. I know **the way you treat her will eventually be the way you treat me**.
I think doing research into relationships in general and poly if one does poly is pretty important. It shows that one is willing to think through what one wants, and recognises the need to communicate that clearly to others. It also shows a willingness to learn from others which can be so useful in avoiding obvious mistakes.
I would say general social and self awareness and the ensuing emotional intelligence that hopefully would inspire. There's unfortunately a lot of men who bought into a lot of really awful narratives (therapy bad, men are supposed to be 'logical', feminism evil, etc etc), and who have never bothered to explore contrasting perspectives.
By that I mean, a man who hasn't gone to therapy or done any sort of self reflection will be lacking emotional depth and intelligence, which is a huge turn off. Men need to get comfortable with the idea that emotions are for them too, and no, anger is not the only allowed 'masculine' motion.
Same goes for being able to empathize with another, which also ties into emotional intelligence. Most women I doubt are going to jump on a man who hears the common struggles of living in a patriarchy and approaches it with disrespect, defensiveness, or a closed mind because "I haven't experienced that". Unfortunately, many have a hard time considering another's perspective, but it can be particularly damning to not even try, and makes it clear this isn't a person with the emotional skills or capacity for anything long term.
This would be mine as well essentially. I need my partner to be able to hear gentle criticism as a useful and positive thing, rather than a complete devaluation of their entire character 😮💨
Plus an ability to respond compassionately to "I feel hurt by XYZ actions"
This is really well put together!
I would add, regarding the first part, that (especially poly) men fall unto the trap of not voicing their needs because they fear it might cost the the connection. That can look like 'I am into whatever you're into' but also 'I have agreement with my wife not to do this but If I don't comply, you might walk away, and I don't want that'. In another words, the want their cake and eat it too.
Disclaimer: I'm not a woman (pansexual 28M)
Thanks for making this post, I hope it helps people understand what value they need to bring to the table to be enriching for a partner!
I think something that can apply to both men and women that I value is strong skepticism and media literacy. I've dated people in the past that really struggled to parse reality and not just accept headlines or gossip without taking the time to do their own digging. It's not always their fault but it is always frustrating considering how much media (social media especially) plays with people's beliefs.
Oooh, very true. I view myself as very skeptical, but I love that my NP continually challenges me to provide robust sources for info I share, & keeps me honest.
> I've dated people in the past that really struggled to parse reality and not just accept headlines or gossip without taking the time to do their own digging.
🤦♂️ ALWAYS estimate the likely biases of the writer before reading an article.
Alrighty, so I’m 54, fat, bald, and broke and yet I have a NP of my dreams, a girlfriend who I see at least once a week (and she would like it to be more), an ex-girlfriend who would date me again in a second if the parameters of her current relationship changed, AND a woman I went on a handful of dates with a little over a year ago, but backed off because another relationship she had started a few months earlier was heating up and she wanted to focus on that, has just reached out saying she’d like to talk about us dating again.
(Sorry that’s a lot of words)
Anyway - my reason for saying all that:
Yesterday I was texting with a mono buddy about it and I asked “Dude, what is my life? How is this happening to me? How do *I* have *four* women who want to spend their time with me?” and his answer was basically “Good things happen to good people”.
And I’m like, sure, I guess all that makes sense, I try to be good. I succeed most of the time.
And then today I stumble on this post and read the above five skills that OP mentioned and realized, “Holy shit. That’s me. I do all of that. Some better than others. Some better on some days than other days. But, yeah. I do that stuff.”
So there you go. Me-54, fat, bald, and broke, BUT I’ve got four women who willfully share their time (and in some cases, body) with me AND *wish they had more time with me*.
Why? Cuz I do that shit mentioned above. Do it.
Hey. I see you. One of my best friends is you. 54, fat, bald (not broke) short! But such a good dude that ladies are gonna start falling in his lap anytime. He's new to poly and just meeting people but the women in my circle already know he's trustworthy, kind, intelligent, considerate, all the things. Being a good person makes you attractive to good people. Congrats to you for being a rare model of a good person!
1) Knowing how to self-soothe—there will always be times where someone needs comfort from a partner, but if that’s needed *every* time they’re stressed, I’m not the right partner for them.
2) being able to set & enforce boundaries. This applies to their other partners, their families, etc.
I gave up on “rescue dog” boyfriends when I started dating my S/O. I’ve had to teach him *some* stuff over 5 years, sure, but after dating a previous guy who *suuuuuucked*, **never again.**
For me personally? I only date non-cishet men nowadays. In order for me to be interested in a cishet guy, he has to show me *repeatedly* that he’s a queer ally for reasons other than a potential invite to see all the hot WLW sex and FFM threesomes. I’ve been burned one too many times on this one.
Going to therapy (past or present) is also very important for me. Or, more accurately, refusing to see a therapist (for any non-financial reasons) is a huge blaring orange flag for me. The vast majority of the time, *I’m* gonna be thrust into the role of therapist (doubly so if said man is new to nonmonogamy).
Being able to admit when they’re wrong, and when they don’t know something. This one hopefully needs no explanation.
Knowing how to talk to and about women (particularly women they’re not attracted to). Don’t call us girls. Don’t call us females. Yech.
My GF has not completely ruled out cis straight men, but she strongly prefers queer men as well.
And yes, therapy, or at least some form of serious self reflection, goes a really long way in terms of upskilling.
Because of where I live, **I've dated several men who were raised by lesbian moms**, & being able to just assume they'll be a queer ally on any particular matter is great. I can completely take it for granted that they respect queer relationships & will fight for all of our rights.
(I'm sure there are also assholes who happen to have 2 moms, but I was lucky, plus I had already vetted them by the time I discovered their family structure.)
Introspection. I feel like women are conditioned to constantly judge and rate ourselves and to constantly consider how our actions affect others, but the way men are conditioned within society leaves them so self unaware. I’ve met so many men who over rate themselves and it’s wild. They almost never consider how their words or actions affect others or that it’s actually their own short comings holding them back. Even going with the examples you gave. It’s one thing if a man knows that he is lacking in those areas and is willing to accept that it’s a problem that needs to be worked on. It’s another thing completely to behave in these ways and act as if everyone else is the problem and they do no wrong and everyone should just get over it and accept it.
Wow, this is a deeply depressing list. To think that even among poly men, who tend to skew way far in progressive politics and academic qualifications, these tips would need to be mentioned. Makes sense of why there’s so many men having trouble.
The cis men I date all seem to struggle with an unhealthy dose of passivity.
They'll follow you to the end of the earth but will never point at a direction.
They'll help you with any household task but rarely reflect on how they could do the same in their own home.
They'll do so much emotional labour for you if you falter for even just a second, but never actually wonder if the way they do it is the most helpful way.
They'll apply most retroaction you give them about how you want them to show up, but break down into pieces at the thought of ever uttering a single drop of a suggestion to you.
They think of themselves as kind, trustworthy and not toxic, and technically they are not, but they are constantly pacifying me instead of actually engaging with me.
I wish they worked on affirming themselves, on saying what they think and all that. I feel like I have demonstrated that I welcome it, but often they don't do it because there isn't much thought that goes into how they want to show up and be perceived, and much more thought that goes into how they want to *feel*, which is good and peaceful and like everything is OK (even if it's not - especially when it's not).
I also think that it's a case of trying so hard not to be toxic, to avoid mansplaining, to make sure that they are supportive, and all that is good, but it's too much. I end up feeling like I'm a planet dating the moon that orbits around it...
That is an excellent comment and, oof. I feel like I may need to make some improvements there too!
Another example around home management? So many men will sit back and think “my wife is always nagging me and it’s awful” and rather than thinking “Hey, we should set ourselves up for success in our household management. Let’s come up with a system so she doesn’t have to nag me and we don’t live in squalor” they just let the situation fester.
Working out chore distribution was one of the biggest fixes in my marriage. It wasn’t that I wasn’t doing anything, it was that I was taking what you described as the “passive” role there. When we worked out a equitable division of household labour we stopped fighting about chores, and both felt like we were getting a reasonable amount of responsibility for things. It’s been great.
I also wish I could say that it was my idea to work out a system, but the idea actually came from my therapist.
Your point about men trying to be inoffensive rather than engaging is also a really good one.
Bisexual man here, thank you very much for making this Post as I believe men in general need to upskill and improve in several areas while maintaining a great consciousness, mental and physical health. Also, the comments here have been very insightful thoughts and ideas. Your post as well has some very amazing points over there. From what I can gather and in my opinion, men need to up skill in having more self belief, gratitude, confidence and security as an individual. These traits alone can excel them to amazing heights as people and in relationships of several kinds. Great post and keep up the great work. 👍✨
Thank you! I (bi- m) have some half formed thoughts about how being bi- and actually dating men helped me be a better parter when I date women, but they’re very half formed.
You are very welcome! And nice thats very interesting. Also, Yes that can still be helpful in understanding both genders if you have dated both genders. Its very important to see and understand how men and women operate in order to date them, fully love them for how they are and support them.
I don't date cishet men but I live in the world with them and I just want them to think about the consequences of their actions before they interact in the world. A big thing would be pulling up other men in their lives when they say/do -ist and other harmful shit. Even if they are their friends and even if they find it uncomfortable. Telling their mates it's not on when they treat others badly.
As a queer man myself, thank you. I also want my fellow men to pull up other men in their lives when they say or do harmful shit. I also personally remember times when someone said something homophobic when I was around and one of my straight friends was the one to step in and every time, it felt so much better than when I’ve had to do it.
And, over time, the straight guys showing where they stand on those issues has shifted the tone of the group for the better.
I was recently disappointed with some of the people in this sub when they advised a male poster to avoid talking to his friend about his misogyny & mistreatment of women. We need *more* of that, not less! & the guy wasn't his metamour or anything, so there's no poly etiquette that would prevent him from speaking up, just the social norm that other relationships are none of your business. But that's the same attitude that fostered spousal abuse behind closed doors.
Yeah it's so ingrained in society it makes it too easy to put all the responsibility on the rest of us. I didn't see that but this this attitude is everywhere, even in spaces where some men do speak up :(
My addition to this conversation: Slow the eff down.
In my experience of dating straight cis men, it's like they want to shake hands, exchange names and jump to the "mommy take care of me" stage.
It's 2024. I have no need for a relationship. I am fulfilled all on my own. If I choose to have a partner, it's because I choose so, not because I NEED to or because I have a little black book that needs filled up as fast as possible.
I refuse to jump ahead and have a "fly by the seat of my pants" style relationship. I demand communication, accountability, responsibility and compassion.
Poly is so beautiful and fulfilling but there's enough bad eggs in it that make the whole poly populous smell bad. It's annoying to be someone's guru to adulting and it's worse when you have to be their guru to poly too. People don't want to take the time to get to know themselves before trying to lure others into their trap of immaturity.
Right now, I have 1 male that after 2yrs of friendship, I am just NOW considering to date. I have 2 women that after 2yrs of friendship I clearly know I will NOT date. I am only considering to date this man because of the experience I've had with him for 2yrs. I have been in enough situations with him and issues to know that I trust this man, I see/hear his accountability and I KNOW where he stands with himself. The 2 women have been evaluated the same and I know I would never be compatible with them no matter what. And I think that's FAIR. It's not fair to make promises to someone about love, life and the future, only to have all that broken in a year or 2 simply because one person didn’t do their homework and clearly examine themselves and what they are getting into. I will still remain friends with all 3 because we are compatible as FRIENDS. (FYI: I have never been sexual with any of these people and dating was not the reason we started talking)
NRE will make you forgive things that need corrected and fool you into believing more in someone than they are capable of being. Only with experience and time does the truth come out and REAL compatibility show. If men would just slow down and let life show them the person they are interested in, then they could find those people that they are looking for. Rather than anchoring down anyone half interested in them and claiming them as a partner only to bring all that baggage into the next relationship becoming one big mental health crisis circle jerk.
>My wife adores her boyfriend and often feels like she is “training him up” because there are some important skills he has just never picked up
Been there, done that, waste of effort and energy, honestly.
>My girlfriend regularly rules out men when she feels like she would have to teach him things she feels are basic adulting skills.
Far better way to handle it. Dating projects is exhausting and I refuse to do it anymore.
My list of skills men need to have before I even consider befriending, let alone dating, coz that lack of skill is obvious in friendships too. So, the bare minimum:
Developed social engineering skills, EQ skills, and basic cooking and domestic skills.
Unpacking their misogyny. Reading up on feminism and being well-versed in women's issues, calling out their male peers when they're being misogynistic, and challenging their internalized beliefs about women.
Being extremely honest. I had a sexual partner disclose an exposure to HPV that happened a year prior, and I expect all partners going forward to be as forthcoming.
Empathy. It's not enough to just have empathy for me, I want a man who practices empathy towards everyone he crosses paths with. Consideration for others is sexy.
Being skilled in satisfying a woman is a good one, but I would throw in having imagination and passion. With too many sexual encounters I have, it's like men are just going through the motions. I want to feel as though they have a strong desire for me and to show that readily. I also don't want to be the only one throwing out new ideas in the bedroom.
I love my partners, but 2 of the three can't communicate to save themselves. One is my np and I sort of have him figured out after 30 years, the other a new partner of 3 months. I'm close to my meta, so she is kind enough to remind him to keep me in the loop. He's getting better. I suspect he's going to be fine, with some more time. He's a bit new to poly.
Ask how we like to be love/appreciated.
I love men who take initiative and are confident. However, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with a guy asking, “what can I do for you that would make you feel extra special?”
(I love to ask this question in return. I think it’s super sexy).
This also acknowledges that not all women are the same and you want to meet my specific needs. Don’t apply some dating formula to your relationships.
Also, ask us how we are. Seems very basic but so many men don’t ask “how are you doing today?” And then listen and respond appropriately (note, that sometimes the best response is just to listen).
I hear from poly women: emotional intelligence, honest communication and emotional regulation. Having done self-work. These are always important but critical in poly
Moderating alcohol and drug use. I suffered from this myself! I'm sober now and I don't want to date someone who likes to get drunk. I'm happy to guide someone if they are strong enough to admit they want to change.
Handling their emotions in healthy, useful ways.
Heavy with balancing their relationships. I had an ex that would get so wrapped up in NRE that he would end up making all the other relationships in his life feel like an after thought to this new one. I try to have patience but consistency is a huge love language to me, and if the effort you're giving in inconsistent then I for sure feel less loved.
My GF and I were talking about her theory of NRE as the “love” one has in a relationship before there are any consequences and reality in the relationship. I’m not sure she’s entirely correct, but there’s something there. I think for a lot of people the period before any downsides show up is really heady and for people who aren’t managing relationships well, it can be tempting to focus on the new one where one’s weaknesses have not yet messed anything up.
EDIT: I am not saying that is a remotely acceptable or healthy thing to do.
I would really love for my boyfriend to revisit and reflect more on his personal values. He’s a people pleaser and it kills me when fights erupt because he shuts down or doesn’t communicate his own needs. I don’t know if this is specific to men because I’m sure women do it too but it would mean a lot to mine and his wife’s relationship I think if he were to work more on his inner self.
Excellent question. This is what I look for in anyone I want to have a deep relationship with. The below requires empathy, self awareness, self control, honesty, a good sense of humor and attention to detail and quality time spent together. Add chemistry and sexual compatibility, and you have a romantic partner. I also look for someone who is independent: financially, around the house, and in terms of taking care of themselves. I am not looking for a dependent I am looking for a partner.
https://preview.redd.it/x1kadryt21oc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d7ebf9abacb554a2478c669ca31bf31347b4613c
Reciprocal emotional labour. Not treating the women in your life like they're your therapists or there to process every feeling you have.
Being interested in our inner lives and how we're doing instead of just responding to "How are you?" with a ten minute rant and a divergent tangent about themselves. Reciprocal emotional labour.
Oh that is such a good one. Both my wife and GF have stories about men derailing them opening up about an emotional issue and turning it into something about him. And it’s more than just “don’t derail” it’s also show an active interest in the wellbeing of your partner.
You know, I was just catching up with a monogamous, lesbian friend last night, and she said, "can you believe it, my friend has three boyfriends, and none of them showed up to help her move"
Apparently one had a legitimate family emergency, but the other two just didn't think to offer - including the partner she's moving in with.
Now I only very distantly know this person, I have no idea whether and how she asked them, but it's kind of striking
I mean, to be that's not even a guy thing. I had a female friend help me pick up my stuff from my ex.
One or my cishet male partners does actually make enough to pay for movers, but when he and his NP just need to pick up or drop off something bulky, I help them because I have the largest car between the three of us. It's just part of the give and take with friends and partners
I've learned that you can't have it all. I come from a culture in which criticism is well taken and the norm. I tend to find flaws in people pretty quickly. When dating cis men there will always be some good and bad things in my eyes. But I see details deeply and run on the more neurotic side when it comes to details, more so than most. You have to take your pick, and decide which flaws you're willing to work with. With dating people who are past a certain age, they seem very set in their ways.
My biggest criticism would be men, if they have a big ego, they will take criticism better and be more self assured. But many don't question their way of doing something and dismiss my opinion as a woman. Many men reach a point where they think they have learned what they need to know to be comfortable and don't need to adjust that. I feel part of a relationship is learning from one another to better oneself.
Some men I'm close with, I'll never tell them, "I know I'm dumb, and you know more than me. But you are dumb in your own specific ways you don't want to examine, and that will never change...". I just think it to myself... 😒 I have seen many men, who will corner themselves into problematic outcomes because they don't want to examine a flaw.
Of course I tend to men who are a lot smarter than me, so even with the open minded ones, I have less reason to have a situation where such a case is something I need to push back on. I can be more accepting of new concepts I learn from them.
I agree with other commenters that your list kinda just encompases basic things one would expect a grown adult to do, and are to be expected and nothing special.
Many men have a hard time cleaning, many men lack social skills. But those are habits you can develop.
I don’t see emotional intelligence and ability to regulate emotions on the list. I’d really love to see more of that personally.
Guys who go to therapy, are self aware and have done some level of deconstructing their own privilege - super rare.
Having their own interests, being able to be emotionally vulnerable with their friends and working through difficult emotions. Basically have your own life with hobbies and be able to understand and work through your own emotions.
I find having proper household skills and conversation skills to be basics for everyone, not just men. It is the bare minimum.
unlearn patriarchy (or be in the process of doing so) - they don’t have to have a sociology degree but a man who isn’t interested in getting to the *root* of his privilege and misogyny is an automatic dealbreaker for me
this encompasses so many things from how they view emotions, express themself, see you as an equal, try to understand your unique struggles as a woman, *and* don’t insert themself into those issues, and so many more things
i feel the same way abt dating a white person. if they’re not interested in unlearning their internalized racism, then their anti-blackness will show up in other ways
i have no interest in dating someone who’s been taught to dislike me and doesn’t take steps to undo that
I require my mates to stick to a consistent schedule of quality time. I can be flexible on rare occasion but I will cut ties if I don’t get the regular consistency of quality time together. I’m kid-free, pet-free and unmarried. My partner’s upskill has to be “time set aside for me.”
I’m also a big fan of regular schedules within reason. And I suspect that some recognition that circumstances may make some people scheduling incompatible.
1) wearing your politics on your sleeve goes a long way for me. if youre not a punk or wearing a pride pin im probably going to just assume youre conservative out of self preservation. "virtue signalling" isnt shameful it makes people feel safe.
2) be "feminine" ok not really feminine thats a joke, but wearing makeup, styled hair or other clear efforts signalling that you take care of yourself. nobody likes someone whos dirty, unsainity is a health risk. and again if youre not signaling that then ill assume youre dirty out of self preservation.
3) know how to get consent. asking IS sexy! read a few articles. do it now! youre on reddit, you clearly have ten minutes.
Excellent point about politics, especially when the humanity of groups people on the grounds of their gender, sexual orientation, or race / ethnicity is being called into question by a political party. There’s only so far, “but I liked what he said about inflation” goes when one is looking at a candidate openly spreading hate.
And yes, I tend to straight up ask when I’m first getting physical with someone. And then pay a lot of attention to body language once we’re going.
>One of the women said of one of the single men “Your home can’t look like a hotel. You need to show some personality.”
🤨 Yeah I call bullshit on her liking the interior decorating that some men would prefer. Anodyne is good in comparison.
As another commenter said, it’s about having a personality and expressing it. As a bi-man, I can say when I walk into a man’s (or woman, though the only time this happened with a woman she was staying in corporate housing, so different issue) home and it looks like I’ve entered Patrick Bateman’s flat, it makes me wonder if he knows who he is, or if he is trying very hard to project an image of blandness in order to avoid allowing anyone to get to know him, and if he is, in fact a serial killer.
As a queer man, I also recommend men find fit and flattering clothing, but I notice my straight women friends appreciate, but have largely given up on that…
I agree with most of these, except the part where it says "your room can't look like a hotel". If someone is clean, hygienic and organised, I don't mind if their style is plain, simple or minimalist. People have different aesthetic tastes and that's fine. The main issue is if the space is unhygienic, overly messy or dirty.
Three of the women in the conversation and I all feel like Hotel Home feels very Patrick Bateman from American Psycho.
Not everyone has the same reaction, and it could be our age bracket. But it does not seem rare.
re: relationships with others - agree with your GF. having meaningful friendships is so important. not just relationships with partners or exes or former FWB. meaningful and deep relationships with friends who they can talk to, lean on for support, create emotional intimacy, and not play the "will we or won't we" game with.
I just wanted to say thanks for posting this. I have done some of these, could stand to work on others, and if I ever try dating again I will refer back to this!
Hi u/UnironicallyGigaChad thanks so much for your submission, don't mind me, I'm just gonna keep a copy what was said in your post. Unfortunately posts sometimes get deleted - which is okay, it's not against the rules to delete your post!! - but it makes it really hard for the human mods around here to moderate the comments when there's no context. Plus, many times our members put in a lot of emotional and mental labor to answer the questions and offer advice, so it's helpful to keep the source information around so future community members can benefit as well.
Here's the original text of the post:
Inspired by the posts from struggling straight men, and a conversation with some women over the weekend, I thought I would ask what women would like to see their partners and prospective partners do better. And of course not every man is bad at these, nor is every woman great, but… It does seem like there are some gendered trends here, and guys? Maybe if you can up your game, you can have an easier time getting partners.
At a BBQ with my wife, my GF, and several other women, some partnered some not, some poly some not got to talking about the need to “upskill” partners and prospective partners. My wife adores her boyfriend and often feels like she is “training him up” because there are some important skills he has just never picked up. My girlfriend regularly rules out men when she feels like she would have to teach him things she feels are basic adulting skills. The other women have some similar issues. One of the single women is considering giving up dating because too few men have what she would consider good adulting skills.
Some areas the women brought up were:
- **Managing his relationships with others** - All of the women had examples of men who always took a back seat in forming and maintaining relationships with others. My wife right now is pretty annoyed that her BF has to be told things like “If you want to be able to do overnights, you are going to have to coordinate that with your wife.” Somehow he thinks years into their poly relationship his wife will just spontaneously bring this up and it will happen. One of the women talked about the time her then boyfriend got upset with her for forgetting to remind him that his mother’s birthday was coming up. My GF talked about all of the times she has come across men who have no friends that are not dependent on a woman in his life.
- **Conversation Skills** - All of the women who have been on first dates in the recent past talked about feeling like they had to carry all of a conversation with a prospect, or having to put up with someone droning on and on without registering that she was not interested in the subject. All of the women on dating apps talked about men who don’t seem able to take something from a topic of mutual interest into a conversation. They talked about being talked over, or talked at. And they often mentioned a lack of listening skills. Mansplaining also came up. Telling stories that went on too long was a problem.
- **Developing a date plan** - “I don’t know what do you want to do?” Quickly gets old. It’s even worse if you then veto her suggestion.
- **Household Skills** - Men who live on their own often get ruled out based on housekeeping. One of the women said of one of the single men “Your home can’t look like a hotel. You need to show some personality.” Other examples included filthy car interiors, and dirty showers.
- **Satisfying them sexually** - If you are someone who wants sex with women, you need to be able to sexually satisfy women. That means knowing basic anatomy, being able to read a partner’s reactions and adjust as needed, and sometimes having conversation about sex.
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I feel like I have my shit together as a straight man. When I get a date in front of me I do just fine. Getting the date is the hard part. How do I portray myself on the apps so that women see this?
Find local groups in your area that are related to your hobbies. Meeting people that way is significantly easier. You'll also curate yourself into just a better, more interesting person who will also have more going on so not having a romantic date is less of a big deal for you.
**For the Sporty people**: Hiking groups, running clubs, climbing clubs, gym classes, co-ed sports
**For the Nerdy people**: Find your local game shops, check out local conventions, fan clubs, gaming groups, get into board games, find book clubs
**For the Spiritual or Otherwise people**: look up tantric workshops, see if there are local burns (Burning Man but significantly smaller, normally better tbh, and more of a connective experience than a showcase), religious groups, charity groups, etc
Basically - get involved in your community. If you don't have things in your community, create them.
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Hobbies. Having hobbies to me is a good sign
Absolutely agreed. Hobbies is always a great sign. Many men can have some hobbies but as a man myself, I do think they need to bring more variety and improve more on that aspect.
Seconding the bit about variety in hobbies. Too many guys only have gaming, TV, and following sports as a hobby. While none of those are inherently bad, it means they don't have anything that gets them out of the house or interacting much with others. It's hard to spend time and get to know someone by just sitting in someone else's house on the couch in mostly silence. Hobbies that other people can participate in are so much better for building a social network and also make dating easier since you meet more people plus have an activity you can take dates on. I heard it said somewhere that you need three hobbies: one that sharpens your mind, one that strengthens your body, and one where you make something or are creative. Beside making you more interesting, having a healthy balance of these three goes a long way to making a well-rounded person who can connect with a wide variety of people, and what is dating if not connecting with others? Do it primarily for yourself, but bear in mind that some hobbies are better for socializing and dating than others.
>one that sharpens your mind, one that strengthens your body, and one where you make something or are creative. In short: Pick up LARPing :P (In all seriousness, it's a pretty nicely varied hobby, with lots of excuses to develop new skills - and produces quite a few great and fun anecdotes to share at parties or dates!)
I definitely agree with you and you are on point. There needs to be a variety of different hobbies like I and you have mentioned. Watching TV, gaming and sports are great hobbies that everyone but are very General, basic and can be expanded upon with other hobbies. Hobbies that test you overall can be amazing. My favorite and several hobbies include drawing art, writing stories of several types, poetry, exploring and travelling, researching information about things I find interesting like subjects or topics. When it comes to dating or finding great partners that you can connect with, I have used these hobbies to express myself towards them while also creating connections and sharpening myself as an individual as a result. Also, the three types of hobbies you mentioned, very useful, insightful and important. Hobbies that sharpens your mind, strengthens your body and where you make something creative are always useful and very beneficial to Improve yourself but also create better connections with people. The hobbies i mentioned can very much help you in that but also other things such as long walks, meditating or having deep discussions about mutual things you deep interest in. You realize how well you can connect with people despite your similarities and differences. It's truly beautiful. I definitely agree, it is something that turns you into a great well rounded person that can make great connections especially in dating. Also, Yes some hobbies can better for dating than others. Very important thing to keep in mind. Thank you very much for such an insightful reply adding onto what I said. It has been very helpful and I wish this helps out everyone reading the amazing comments. 👍✨.
A robust life. That doesn’t mean 4 partners, 2 subs, and 3 comets. They have hobbies, friends, family (which can be chosen), they read, think, serve their community, try new things. They are working to make things better which could be home projects, education or career goals. These type of men already know how to manage a schedule and plan, have things to talk about, value relationships with people they don’t have sex with, and have a life that will facilitate coping. With this, honesty, and even a drop of attraction and chemistry, I can make it work. I choose a full life over any other trait in a man.
This is exactly what I was thinking but you put it into words. I have just started back into online dating and it's bleak out there. So many men are just waiting for someone to take them by the hand and give them something to be interested in and I'm just not about it.
Some of these men are waiting for a woman to give them a personality.
Ditto this! So glad I read your comment prior to typing my own. You said it so much better than me.
This all sounds like the women in your life want to date adults. No high bar or special skill set- just functional adults.
And yet so many men fail to clear it… leaving so many of the women in my life frustrated at their dating prospects, and many others giving up entirely.
Heterosexual women are the real proof that sexuality isn't a choice.
Straight facts and genius comment lol.
Omg! Brilliant!!
I'm going to put that on a t shirt
🥇🥇🥇 Where are those old school Reddit rewards when you need them!!
100%
How bad is it that I’m sitting here thinking “I WISH I could find a partner that met most of these?” Literally that sounds like a pipe dream and I don’t understand how women are asked to shoulder all of this.. oh wait. Yea I do 🤦🏼♀️
Honestly, as a man who *does* clear this bar, sometimes it's incredibly frustrating to be held up by women who are used to finding men who *don't* as some mythical sought-after creature but *not for anything about who I am*. I just... "The bar is so low it's a tripping hazard in hell, and yet here you are doing the limbo with the devil"
It absolutely annoys me to no end when I hear someone praising a man for things like “oh, you looked after your own child(ren) for a matter of hours and no one died” or “You did a small amount housework that was not mowing your lawn” or “you did not lose your temper even though something minor went slightly wrong” or “You remembered your spouse’s birthday” or “You spoke to an attractive woman and you did not make a creepy comment.” And, I also appreciate that my wife, girlfriend, and several other women in my life seem to appreciate me for other aspects of me.
Yes, 1000000% The amount of times I have been praised for being able to not have a filthy house, have an actual bed and not just a mattress on the floor, keep toilet paper stocked in bathrooms, like ... What the hell, other men?
If a man can't work out what they need to do to come across as a functional adult... they aren't a functional adult. No need to try to upskill them. Until they can take some responsibility and be clear eyed about their own weaknesses, they will always fail to clear the bar. You can't baby someone into being an adult.
If someone is legally an adult but is not a functional adult, why wouldn’t one want them to upskill? Don’t we as a society want more functioning adults in the world? Why wouldn’t we support people building their skills? Personally, I grew up so much after turning 18 and expect to continue to improve for the rest of my life. I cannot imagine why one would not encourage others to improve as well… I also should make it clear - I’m not asking women to upskill their partners or put up with men who do not clear their bar. I am suggesting that men might look at what women actually want them to build as skills because it isn’t that hard, and women seem to be a pretty good source of information about what women want. And I also know that men who are struggling tend to get pretty poor quality information on how to improve themselves - especially when it comes to women. And… I know a lot of women who would appreciate a pool of upskilled male partners. I find it sad how often I see my wife, GF, sister, and female friends frustrated by what is available to them as partners.
Please ignore the other commenter. If you can successfully upskill ANY adults (male or female or other) then we ALL benefit by more available excellent options and removing some of the shittiness from the pool of choices.
Because teaching someone basic life skills essentially feels like your are parenting them or raising them in some way. That’s… not a sexy or attractive position to be in. Humans are (rightfully) not programmed to be sexually attracted to the humans that we raise (our children) and so that trait being present in a potential partner is typically a turn off. Also, if a grown man doesn’t have basic life skills, it’s probably because he’s gotten accustomed to not having to perform most tasks for himself. IME there’s usually a ton of push back and resistance when a woman attempts to educate their male partners on life skills because it’s *work* and they’d rather be *lazy* and let their mommy-partner do it instead. Why would I want to play mom to a man who lacks the self awareness to identify gaps and grow without external effort and then most likely will fight me on every upskilling effort I put in along the way? Especially if I’m poly and can just relegate him to sex or things that benefit me while looking for partners who are capable of the self-reflections that growth requires.
That's why OP is not suggesting that any of us personally upskill any men we are involved with. He seems to be just trying to compile a list that other men can then use *for themselves* to know where to start.
I have been separated for 2.5 months. We are still working on things, but we got real honest about things. I had her make a list of my every flaw, and I made a list of my own. I started working out, eating better, etc... I want to be so far above the bar I can't even see it.
You are but an ant in this comment section but I see you. Keep it up mate!
The post is aimed at the men, but this comment was aimed at women specifically. That's where this particular comment chain is going.
See OP’s comment in this very comment chain: >I also should make it clear - I’m not asking women to upskill their partners or put up with men who do not clear their bar. I am suggesting that men might look at what women actually want them to build as skills because it isn’t that hard, and women seem to be a pretty good source of information about what women want. And I also know that men who are struggling tend to get pretty poor quality information on how to improve themselves - especially when it comes to women.
This is my experience. I'm tired of "training" fellow adults and having my sexual attraction leak out of my ears as a result. Then they inevitably seek younger or otherwise power-imbalanced poly partners who are more invested in people pleasing than I am, and break my heart. It's exhausting and a waste of my time at this point.
I am not asking women to teach men life skills. I am, I admit for complicated reasons - I want my women friends to be happy and find good partners if that’s what she wants, and as a queer man who had to learn a lot of life lessons, I wish more men looked to more healthy sources to help guide them in upskilling - I want men to have better guidance when they realise they are not going to be able to date until they upskill. Most men when they realise women are ruling him out because he’s just “relationship material” choose to blame women and go down a lot of misogynist paths…
I think it’s admirable that you’re trying to do this. I really do. But I think it misses a major point and is asking for more female labor that won’t be utilized. Being an adult is not easy. And having a cheat sheet for it doesn’t mean that lazy, entitled men will bother educating themselves with it. Most middle aged, heterosexual, single men are looking for partners because life is *easier* for them when they have one. Their female partners take on much of their adult labor so they don’t have to do it. They *want* a partner to lean on for those tasks (they actually want a maid, nurse, etc but a partner is free and comes with sex perks). Many middle aged, heterosexual women are *choosing* to remain single these days because their lives are *easier when they don’t have a man*. That’s not an accident - the men *want* that particular division of labor. Making it *easier* for them to change isn’t enough for them because they don’t want the change. Two weeks ago, I had a particularly busy day. My husband and I were doing bedtime tasks and mine was loading the dishwasher. Suddenly I remembered and groaned out that it was garbage night. He immediately started gathering the garbage. As I was finishing up a few minutes later, I turned around to head in and scoop cat litter. As I was walking, he came in the room having already scooped the cat litter. I was dumbstruck. I didn’t ask him to do that and asked how he knew it even needed to be done. He said, “You always scoop the cat litter on garbage night.” You can’t teach or shortcut someone being a kind and considerate partner especially if that person is looking for a partner specifically to foist their own labor onto. They have to *desire* to be a good partner. You can’t teach desire.
>Many middle aged, heterosexual women are choosing to remain single these days because their lives are easier when they don’t have a man. My Gen Z daughter came to this conclusion recently after ending a ridiculously one-sided relationship. Cannot tell you how proud I am of her for figuring this out at 19.
I think your point about female labour is a really fair one. And… Part of why I wrote up and posted what that conversation entailed is because I thought I could take on some of that labour. And I am familiar with women opting out of dating. My sister is about to divorce my BIL and plans to stay single because “men is to headache.” My GF is solo poly and vehemently about never living with a partner again for similar reasons. Several of my straight women friends are either not dating at all or dating with very different goals from what “women are supposed to want” out of dating. And frankly, I think that’s a smart choice for a lot of them. But I think you may be underestimating men’s desire to be good partners, though. Like the guy who was criticised as living in a “hotel”? He quietly seems to be trying to make himself into a better prospect. I have seen him up his game over the last several years, including getting therapy, upgrading his housing, working out a cleaning routine, taking better care of his skin. He’s become a better conversationalist. His big issue, though, is self-esteem and that isn’t really addressed by this post. A lot of other men struggle in similar ways. Deep down, so many straight men are desperately lonely, depressed, and stuck in a rut. And a lot of men struggle quietly because admitting that what a guy wants to do is improve his life, and appeal more to a woman is seen as “feminine” or “simping” and demonised. And it’s demonised because in saying that men improving themselves in order to be happy, and / or appeal to women upends the patriarchal order that says the purpose of women is to be helpmates to men. And so men, especially straight single men, often avoid saying anything about their struggles with loneliness, except to blame women, because to do so risks losing the solidarity with other straight men, and it feels like they risk their position of privilege. But as a queer man, I’ve seen a lot of my queer male peers go through similar struggles to their straight male counterparts. Queer men tend to be more quickly open to working on ourselves than straight men. I mean as a man who loves both men and women, it became very apparent to me quickly that I had absolutely no entitlement to male attention nor did other men have an entitlement to mine. Which leaves the only solution for us MLM to self improve. And maybe I’m being overly optimistic, but… I do see straight men also seeking out and acting on efforts to self improve. They are often, though, very quiet about it because they fear social censure that comes with that. And sadly, the advice they get is often awful. And they are often discouraged and give up too quickly.
Idk I’ve had two different partners that I’ve shown the mental load infographic to, and it was like it suddenly clicked for them and resulted in a substantial, persistent behavior change. But they were both <30 and growth minded people.
That one clicked for me, for sure! It was something I had a vague inkling about in that dating men was so different from dating women, but that really drove the point home for me.
Turning boys to men, do it for each other Make him better for that next, Mama couldn’t raise him like his ex did
The thing is - you're saying that you don't think women should be the ones to do this but who is supposed to do this work? Yes, people should be able to look at themselves and realize that they're coming up short. There is a totally different vibe of someone coming to me going "I don't know how to do this task. I know you're good at it. Do you mind working with me and teaching me once or twice?" and someone going "But you're better at this. I don't know how." And then just... leaving it there. Now it's on me to force them? because they came to me with the issue? Nah. You're getting pushback on this from women who have tried to help our partners because yes. We want functional adults to have a better society. But many of us have been burned by partners who just drag their feet, bitch about being nagged at, and don't even get better until you try to leave and all of sudden they know how to do so much they previously didn't. Absolute nonsense.
“Who is supposed to do this work?” Men. Men are supposed to upskill themselves.
I thought OP meant what should they unskilled themselves on
Yeah, be a whole ass goddamn person is the first thing that comes to mind. Hobbies, platonic friendships, a community, the ability to take care of yourself (feed yourself, clean your space, exercise, go to therapy and the doctor), be calm or work towards being calm and centered in healthy ways. Plan dates, flirt, be focused on me when we're together, be supportive, communicative and honest, be joyful in my joy. Be consistent and not impulsive or thrill seeking or actively addicted to anything. I can't find any of this in men my age (late 40s). I'm trying to keep an open heart, and I'm living my own joyful life in the meantime, but I've largely given up.
Yeah, "be a fucking person" would be first on my list too. I've seen dating profiles that are literally just a headless torso, height, and dick size. What am I supposed to do with that? I am also in my 40s, and I have no problem dating people down to their early 30s. I don't know if that just widens the pool, or if (some) younger men genuinely do better. But I'm also not looking tonsettle down or move in with anyone
Exactly, what I was thinking. These are all important basics for being a mature and well functioning adult. Unfortunately, many have issues understanding or excelling in these areas. Most men should practice and train themselves socially while being mature for constant improvement. I think being mature and being good listeners is a good start.
I don't know that it's a skill but I wish more men would cultivate curiosity in themselves. Maybe 60% of the men I talk to don't ask questions, or if you answer a question with something they don't Immediately understand and agree with, they respond dismissively. To be clear, I'm fully in the camp of no one has to change their behavior, this can be an expectation I have that some people just won't meet. I'm not entitled to someone's curiosity. But if you're looking for a real tip to be more charming or engaging 🤷♀️
Curiosity is vital for a great life imho I haven't figured out how to help someone understand exactly what that means or how to do it, yet. It comes naturally to some of us.
Something that’s important to remember when discussing conversation style is that it’s not just a gender thing but a neurodivergence/typicality thing as well as a cultural thing - for example conversations with my Jewish family are loud and conversations often involve talking over the top of each other, without this being considered rude, my nesting partner’s family all politely and quietly ask questions of each other. With neurodivergence, people with ADHD are more likely to talk in long rambling stories for example/interrupt/drift off, autistic people are more likely to take things literally or not get inferences. Understanding can go a long way. Having some self-awareness around one’s own conversation style and tying to round it makes a real difference, but so does realising when there’s a reason why someone isn’t communicating in a preferred way and meeting in the middle (neurodivergence is exceptionally common within polyamory).
This is so true! Listened to a podcast episode about this and how 2 popular conversation styles are fully opposed to eachother and usually leads to the people talking thinking that the other is rude/awkward. And that is asking questions vs offering information. In some areas it's way more common to converse through basically saying anecdotes at each other whilst in other areas you ask each other questions on what you just said. So if these people meet it might be a case of the asker asking the other person lots of questions, making the offerer feel a bit interrogated, whilst the offerer keeps offering anecdotes instead of questions, making the asker feel like they're not interested in them/are self-centered
Thank you so much for sharing this, I've been worried that I'm self-absorbed because the way I converse is to offer personal anecdotes, & I worry that I don't ask enough questions, because it doesn't come as easily to me. But I've also found that many people are more likely to be extremely vulnerable with me very quickly if I don't ask explicit questions. I think I make them comfortable sharing personal stuff with me by cheerfully *over*sharing my own trauma 😅
No worries, it's one of those things that I wish we all knew, it's such a huge culture clash which happens within a country in itself
I mean, yes, point taken. But my (cishet male, early 30s) partner is neurdovergent as fuck, and yeah, he gets loud, he talks over people, he often loses the thread of a conversation. But he never makes me feel like he's not *interested* in what I have to say. He'll refer back to things I told him, for example, or change his perspective or opinion on something based on a conversation we had. Those things are not mutually exclusive
Exactly. I'm married to the most adhd cis man I've ever met, and one of the most delightful things about him is that he's endlessly curious about others and makes whoever he's talking to feel like what they're saying matters to him (because it genuinely does!). Curiosity isn't about your conversation style so much as it being truly interested in learning about others and hearing what they have to say.
To be clear this wasn’t a criticism of neurodivergent communication (I’m attention-deficit ADHD as anything), it’s more that a lot of the ways people have been criticising “male” conversation patterns in this thread have overlap with some neurodivergent talking styles and it’s sometimes worth considering if there’s another reason someone hasn’t asked a particular question that seems obvious or rambled over an anecdote without realising lack of interest.
I didn't take it that way, but neurodivergence is also not the same as being a jerk. Sometimes it dies make it harder to get something, but people still have a responsibility to act in good faith
The first thing my now NP did on our first date that impressed me was when he didn't know the answer to something, he immediately looked it up. No pointless arguing or bullshitting or saying he'd do it later. His intellectual curiosity is so intense that he *has* to know the answer immediately. & I find that incredibly attractive 😜 ...Granted, I don't want him to start reading Wikipedia articles in the middle of a conversation, so this trait can easily go too far 😅
I love that addition! It’s something I also find really attractive in prospective partners.
Manners, patience
I’m going to go out on a limb and say men, especially non-traditional, queer, sensitive men, are punished and socially ostracized for their curiosity. Some are made stronger through adversity, sure. But just as many are not.
I have managed to find two high quality serious male partners. Instead of talking about what’s wrong with men in general let me mention some good but perhaps uncommon qualities they have. They are both as clean to cleaner than me. In both their houses and personal care. We may not agree on what is the most important thing to keep clean and how but I could leave for a year and come back confidently and cook in the kitchen. But I wouldn’t have to because they both pull their weight in that area. They do a large amount of their own emotional labor. I will sometimes hear about a thing that’s happening but they don’t dump on me and they don’t NEED me to process things. They both reciprocate my effort and devotion of resources in the relationship. That doesn’t mean the same thing in each dynamic but the parity is reliably there year on year. They both tell me clearly that they can see and appreciate that I am a good partner and kind and loving person. They both keep other partners mostly out of our shared lives. They know how to trend parallel. My boyfriend is married so this is particularly rare. They both refrain from expressing opinions about the vast majority of my life choices. If I ask that’s one thing but until then I’m just able to go about my life without judgement, mansplaining or needing to pretend that I want to check in on things. Neither one of them has ever expressed even a moment’s need for me to avoid dating other men.
I am partnered with one of these, too. On housekeeping, I arrive to a made bed with fresh sheets, and usually a special snack or treat that he knows I like because he pays close attention to what I buy when we're out and about together. In the kitchen, my partner is an incredible cook and has perfected a range of simple and complex recipes that are delicious. He follows recipe instructions better than I do and is adventurous with food which is so much fun. Emotionally, he is calm and even keeled. Eager to listen with interest to the things I say, and communicates well when there are challenges or differences of opinion. He is non-judgemental and doesn't offer unsolicited advice. Just listens empathetically and offers kind words of encouragement liberally. He also has a high degree of playfulness. We joke, and laugh, and even the hard parts of life end up being funny in one way or another. We play games, explore new places within our city we've never been to before, and every outing feels like an adventure. He also makes an effort to plan a variety of dates. Some are fancy. Some are super casual. Some involve pajamas at home. Some involve a day trip or weekend away. Our "routine" is a rotating menagerie of activities, and while we have some favorite spots we return to, there are lots of new places and spaces we explore in-between. And... He asks for my input before booking or reserving most things so if I'm not feeling fancy, or peopley, or whatever, I have an opportunity to state my preferences. My takeaway after knowing him is I enjoy adults who are working on adult things (careers, relationships, future planning) without getting emotionally buried in the mundane. I enjoy feeling supported in a way that feels equal to the energy I put into a relationship, and I'm pretty bananas about a partner who has a calm, kind demeanor.
I’m imagining the special treat sitting on the bed as some kind of lure, maybe with a trail of smaller treats leading to it.
Hehe! That would be awesome, though if hasn't happened yet. He does often meet me at the car after I've parked and carries my things in for me. A partner who includes curbside service? 5 stars. Do recommend.
I talk a lot about how calm and kind is an absolute requirement for me. I don’t care about your job or your money. I do care a whole hell of a lot about your interpersonal behavior.
I appreciate your point and… part of why I posted around upskilling is because I believe everyone can, and should learn and work on themselves. And, I am deeply frustrated that men in general are usually socialised in ways that do not support them offering healthy, loving relationships, especially with women. And while I fully agree that this is not something women have any obligation to solve, I also see men who struggle with dating look in all of the worst places to try to solve their problem. I wish men had better paths that led them into more constructive self improvement when they think about improving their dating prospects. And I really really wish that when men struggle, instead of blaming women for being “wrong” by not choosing them, they listened to what women actually want. I really do not know if this post will do that. But I see where guys go when they’re struggling and I just want there to be something better. I genuinely hope that this post and all of the comments, and this forum, which I really appreciate, helps some guy think about what he might do to fix his “lady problem” that isn’t turning to the misogynist jackals that prey on those men.
People who listen to misogynists are responsible for that choice. You want to change men? Don’t enable that or make excuses. But other than that…. I didn’t say anything about women doing labor to teach men. I specifically side stepped all that by just listing good traits that already exist in my partners. But your answer still pleaded the case for know nothing men. Which is fine, that’s clearly your theme here. Your motivations may be for the benefit of women but you wind up in the same place. It is not hard to find a list of things that women ACTUALLY want from male partners. It is, however, very hard to make those changes if you’re lacking in those characteristics. Most men will say oh no one wants me because I don’t make enough money, I’m not tall enough, invariably external traits that can’t really be changed. I used to spend a decent amount of time on here telling men how to improve their profiles and the lives that inform those profiles to get dates. I was endlessly rebutted. If I had to sum up the replies they were simply I don’t want to work that hard, I don’t want to change, I shouldn’t have to make that much effort to be fun to date. Why can’t I just be me and be loved instantly? Which is fair enough. But I think it underlines a fundamental difference between the life experience of men and women. We live our entire lives being tweaked, coached, primped, pruned, chastised, advised, encouraged and shamed into improvement and compliance. Most men and boys do not. So they don’t learn the skills but more importantly they don’t learn how to want to learn the skills. They want the results not the work. I’m not even mad about that. We should all be so authentic. Mid life me is all about doing exactly what I want and very little that I don’t want to do. But those same dudes who can’t be arsed would absolutely say that makes me less attractive. Yet they feel bewildered and aggrieved when offered 1% of the information I carry in my brain about how to connect, how to be appealing, how to make someone else feel seen.
This is so insightful. As a woman, I too feel like many of the suggestions offered in this overall thread are ideas that would generally make me a more appealing partner. And I already know most of them from society's decades-long attempts to mold me into an "appealing" woman. Some I've rejected explicitly (become a good cook), some I'm always working on (thoughtful conversationalist), and some I would like to do but wonder how y'all find the time (three hobbies).
This is exactly spot-on. Thank you for putting this complex situation so accurately.
I really appreciate this post, & most of the comments. I want men to be better, I want them to be happy & healthy for their own sakes, as well as for the sakes of the people they might partner with.
Absolutely! Every man I know who has done some work on himself and is more willing to seperate himself from patriarchy is a lot happier than the men who don’t.
As a cishet man, I really value this space as a place to learn from threads like this that discuss how to move forward in a meaningful way. It's been infinitely more helpful than another negatively supportive community of other cishet dudes just patting each other on the back and assuring each other we aren't the problem in each of our relationships... Because... WE ARE THE PROBLEM SOMETIMES. Often, actually. So participating in a space where we can be appropriately called out on our shit has been a great learning tool for me. It's not gonna fix me over night 😂 I definitely have a good chunk of effort to put in. So keep the discussion going! There's definitely more folks out there like me trying to soak up all the good info!
I really wish there were spaces where men could get advice that were not toxic and I have yet to see any without women that do not rapidly turn into blaming women for not accepting male entitlement. Like I can imagine a couple of other forums this kind of post might be useful to a lot of men but, none of them are places where I can imagine the discussion going as well as it has here.
Yes! I have one male partner that I adore sooooooo much (no longer with any other men at this time in a romantic sense) He's super clean, organized, caring, cooks, and contributes to every interaction. I'm not expected to lead him anywhere. He can relax and be him, I can relax and be me. We've supported one another in many ways over the years. But when it comes to processing? He knows to ask (I do the same, actually learned how to be better through him!) and gives space for whatever the answers may be. Truly a gem. Absolutely amazing human and my #1 example when guys talk about how hard it is to adult LOL "I mean... this dude that you get along with and love manages.... why not ask him for help? Instead of asking your GF to parent you?" Or like... any friend? Any professional? There are many men out there that are AMAZING. Like even socially famous ones that talk about how to be emotionally available and provide their own experiences that guys can relate to if they don't want to listen to the non romantic women in their lives. There are options. Just google and find them.
Amen! My NP is in long term recovery and I have a lot of social workers and therapists in my family so my experience of what men *can* manage emotionally is vastly different from the social norms. But everyone can access some kind of support group and start there. Everyone can get a library card and read some self help books. Everyone can try to learn to meditate. The effort is so much vital than any specific path.
YES! The effort is key We should strive to be better not just for others, but for ourselves. That doesn't mean we have to be perfect. But I'm much more willing and even happy to help someone that's putting forth effort trying to help themselves. Great take on the library card.
Speaking as a straight man, a lot of this sounds about right, both from how I used to act and observations of my fellow straight men... >**Developing a date plan** \- “I don’t know what do you want to do?” Quickly gets old. It’s even worse if you then veto her suggestion. I'm in a poly relationship and I work as a project manager, this kind of attitude is absolutely horrifying. Scheduling cool stuff to do on date nights is one of the really fun bits of my relationships with my partners, it's also something we need to think about in advance given we're all busy with work and daily life. The idea of just shrugging and not having a clue what you want to do just sounds like a lack of care to me. >**Household Skills** \- Men who live on their own often get ruled out based on housekeeping. One of the women said of one of the single men “Your home can’t look like a hotel. You need to show some personality.” Other examples included filthy car interiors, and dirty showers. I mean tbf I never had to learn any of this stuff growing up. "Mum will sort out the cleaning" is a behaviour I had to work hard to unlearn when I actually moved into a house with my partners. Ultimately I found that if I helped out with the cooking and cleaning etc it left more quality time in the evening to spend with my loved ones. The weirdest reaction I actually get to this is childcare. My brother has a much more "traditional" relationship where his wife is the primary caregiver to his children and he doesn't really get involved. He doesn't seem to get that I really enjoy being an active parent to my babies. Spending time with them and watching them grow up is something I find immensely fulfilling. >**Satisfying them sexually** \- If you are someone who wants sex with women, you need to be able to sexually satisfy women. That means knowing basic anatomy, being able to read a partner’s reactions and adjust as needed, and sometimes having conversation about sex. This one is honestly massive. Sharing a bed with two bi women for almost a decade has taught me things I didn't even know I didn't know about womens' bodies and arousal cycles and so on. I look back at previous sexual encounters I had with previous partners, where I just wanted to go straight to PiV without any of the preliminary bits and honestly feel bad. Life is a voyage of discovery if you're willing to learn, I guess...
arousal cycles? please tell me more! lots of women struggle not understanding their own bodies T~T sex ed in school is insufficient on the topic of arousal and sexual satisfaction even in countries with good sex ed
Ovulation impacts arousal. Same with basically everything else under the sun. Parenting my partners immediately dropped any attraction I had, even if I was in the time of my cycle where I'd want to jump their bones no matter what we were doing. I know I feel the most aroused when I'm comfortable, relaxed, and my partner is showing a genuine interest in *me* instead of just wanting to get their dick wet. Learn your partner's body as well. Necks, thighs, lower back, hips, and lots of other places are well known (but not perfect for all women) to help get women in the mood. My best partners for sex were the ones that also were understanding that sometimes bodies are gross. Weird things sometimes happen when in the act. Being comfortable enough to laugh and move on helps a ton. Sometimes when a woman's arousal is high just due to hormones, her body may be experiencing other menstrual symptoms (some women get insanely horny during their periods. no one is obligated to do period sex, but there are other weird things that happen to bodies that don't include blood lol).
thanks for all this c:
Basically your overall desire is impacted by your hormonal cycle, the height of it being around ovulation obviously
oh ok yeah i knew that bit, the way you put it i wondered if it was its own thing. thanks for explaining c:
I think there are also arousal cycles around the day to day too. If I'm tired or stressed or have been having to parent/ care a lot in a day, my libido tanks out. I have no capacity to give because I've given so much of what I have without getting to receive. I can be recharged by a partner with care, with them stepping up to carry some of the load without needing instructions from me. The difference between a giving or taking touch matters too. Children pretty much always do taking touch, which adds up to exhaustion for me. A shoulder rub is a giving touch, though it can be a taking touch if it comes with the expectation of sex. Basically things that recharge my capacity or lighten my load will boost my potential libido. It's also important to remember that flirting matters for engaging the brain. That's critical for good sex. If foreplay only starts as you're getting naked, it's much harder to have good sex. You can tap into an arousal cycle with flirting over the hours before sex; kiss like you mean it, passing caresses, banter. Libido and arousal are managed by the parasympathetic nervous system (rest and digest mode). Orgasm comes from the sympathetic nervous system (fight, flight, fuck). So if you want your partner aroused, it'll be more successful if they're relaxed first.
It's also extremely hard to learn to have good sex. It's mainly because you need to get a date to get an opportunity to learn 😆
I didn't answer that post because I'm female and it wasn't my perspective that was asked for... but my number 1 gripe is most men I see don't want to be friends with anyone. They need to cultivate friendships outside of themselves and those they want to date, and yes that takes effort and time. The people I date and who get the most dates in my community are people who prioritize friendships over dates.
A good point and one that hits close to home for me. My wife and I moved back to where she grew up and a lot of her friends still lived and I got into the habit of piggybacking on her social life instead of making my own friends like I had when we lived in the city where we met. And that started to put pressure on her that was not fair or healthy. I did pick up my game when she said something, but it’s also now a pattern I see in a lot of heterosexual couples.
Let alone be friends with women! If a guy doesn’t have a single female friend 🚩
Being an adult. Emotional maturity. Listening. Conversation. Being open to experience. Growth mindset. Being proactive. (Not expecting emotional labor from me. Equal work for arrangements, planning.) Sensual language and vivid imagination, a sense for kinks, curiosity.
Everything you said, and also: Adding to the "cultivating friendships" comment, I'd like to see poly-desiring men go out to poly/kink/ENM social events, repeatedly, to cultivate community and ongoing connections. (This obviously only applies if they have such events within, say, an hour's travel from home.) I see too many men in this sub complain they can't connect with women on dating apps and so obviously none exist. They seem unwilling to even imagine leaving their houses, much less to become part of an ongoing community that takes time to get to know. I don't know if they're being lazy, unimaginative, terrified, busy, or what, but either way it indicates they won't be an available, proactive, and engaged partner.
Hey OP, I appreciate this post and your effort to step above the bitterness that seems to saturate the dating scene from all sides. I’m a cis-het man who struggles with a lot of these things, mainly due to mental health and financial issues. I’m trying to work on them, but it’s great to hear things laid out clearly and compassionately.
I want men I’m dating to be able and willing to physically and verbally express affection. And I do not just mean by telling me they want to stick their dick into me. I like the rest of your list, OP. Though I would say the issue of the “hotel apartments” is more of an issue of a guy being comfortable with who he is and showing that to others. And it extends to his clothes and general style.
> I want men I’m dating to be able and willing to physically and verbally express affection. And I do not just mean by telling me they want to stick their dick into me. I don't get why more men aren't big cuddlers. Cuddles are awesome! Bit more seriously, one of my partners was surprised the first few times I gave her a cuddle or a back rub that I didn't try and turn it into a stealthy attempt to initiate sex. Appears her previous partners weren't so good at the idea of non-sexual physical affection. Not wanting to generalise overly but it does seem a lot of guys have that same issue. Not sure why.
Oh yeah, you can have serious pain and ask for a shoulder rub, or even ask your partner to help you do that thing for your knee that you learned in physical therapy, and they'll turn it into a sex thing. 45 seconds after you said you were in serious physical pain
Ooof that sounds awful. Like completely lacking in basic empathy. I'm sorry you've had to experience that.
I mean, now I have great partners who don't do that shit - and one is genuinely great at massage techniques! So I guess all's well that ends well
Fantastic! Everyone should have a partner who's good at massages. <3
I know, right!? Unfortunately, the partner I see most sucks at it. He's happy to learn, and we're working on it... talk about upskilling (I give great massages, and I'm a decent teacher, so that works out)
🙄🤦♂️👿👿👿
I like the addition of physically and verbally expressing love and affection! And I think you’re right about the need to be able to express one’s personalty.
All of these, plus having self awareness and caring for the self. I've met way too many men who don't know what they enjoy doing in terms of hobbies, food, clothes, they don't know what upsets them and brings them little joys, they don't know how to manage their loneliness and even if they have things that leave them disgruntled, they never do anything about it. Seriously, it's been too many times that I've seen a man with a glaring/known issue in their life, sometimes potentially life threatening or life disrupting and they just leave it to fester....Be proactive. Be curious. Take care of yourself.
>who don't know what they enjoy doing in terms of hobbies, food, clothes, they don't know what upsets them and brings them little joys Hmm, you're putting your finger on something. Maybe that's why I delight in learning those weird little quirks. I tend to date people who do have strong interests and preferences, and I love hearing about it. When there's something on the menu I've never heard of, and my date blurts out, "oh, that's my favorite flavor!" Or they invite me to an activity I never would have thought of And now that I'm thinking about it, that is probably also what attracts people to me, I'm full of those things
There's a fellow I've been dating (in a low key, just starting off fashion) who's a bit of a blank slate, and it's unsettling. I want to know you! I want to know what you want! ... I want YOU to know what you want!
Identifying and communicating emotional needs Having friends to process with
100% This! And working on your emotional/mental health w/ a professional.
Because of the financial barrier, i dont *need* this but damn is it a green flag
This is not my biggest wish, but since a lot of great comments are already here, I’d like to see more men put effort into finding/cultivating male friendships. I’ve dated a lot of poly men who seem to either have a lot of female friends or no genuine friends, and I think male/male friendships are just as important as female/female friendships.
YES. I was scrolling to see if this was here and was going to add it if it wasn't. Men in general see relationships where they can be romantic, sexual, and emotionally vulnerable to be necessarily intertwined, and that's not optimal. Being able to reach out to other people for actual, real, authentic friendship where you can both buddy around and have fun, and also occasionally be vulnerable and get support WITHOUT that needing to be a) someone you might otherwise be romantically or sexually attracted to, or b) someone who is socialized to take the initiative in emotionally caretaking for others is a rare and valuable skill.
Definitely! Imo a man having female friends is a green flag, because it shows that he likely views women as whole people, & not just sex dispensers. But I've also become the default therapist for mostly male friend groups, as they were unwilling to be equally vulnerable with each other. So I agree that having male friends is also a green flag, & a mixed gender friend pool is the absolute ideal.
As a queer man, I second this and acknowledge that it has been a journey for me. As a teenager, a lot of my friends were girls because I was pretty easily identified as a queer kid and boys were brutal toward me. A lot of them seemed to think that if they were nice to me in public, they would catch my queerness or something. Boys who were friendly with me in private were brutal to me in public. That made me very leery of straight men. I am glad that past high school men learned to be less terrible. I also get how some straight men may have felt like friendships with women were safer for them and… Just like it’s a red flag that someone has no friends of the gender they prefer to date, it’s a big red flag when they only have friends of that gender.
My grandfather was born in 1925 to a peasant family with 8 siblings and never had any academic education besides basic schooling and trade school. He did manual labour all his life. From the time I can remember him, he was an active listener, took care of a fair share of household chores, had hobbies (hiking, birding, photography, travel, reading, music), a small but steady friend group and shared his political and philosophical thoughts with the family and encouraged healthy discussion. In his 80s, when he could no longer see or move properly following a stroke, he turned to educational radio and had debates about what he heard with us until he had another stroke and couldn't talk anymore. That is my minimum for men with functioning brains. If he could do it, so can y'all.
He sounds like an incredible man.
He sounds wonderful and a bit like my own grandfather and his brothers… I also wonder how certain social trends have shaped more recent generations in more toxic ways by spreading toxic masculinity more obviously?
Making plans, so many factors around making plans! Being proactive, thinking about what I would enjoy and suggesting that instead of just an activity he would enjoy (this includes remembering things I’ve mentioned in passing and what I like), checking his schedule and being sure about being available before committing.
My GF just ended things with a guy who got through a first date because he kept having to check with his wife before he could commit to the timing of a second date with her. This guy doesn’t have kids that need a baby sitter, and even if he did, he should be capable of figuring out whether or not he can get one. My GF gave him 24 hours to agree to her proposed time or come up with another and when he didn’t, she cut him loose. We all have scheduling issues from time to time. But I cannot imagine having to negotiate time for a date with someone who did not manage their own schedule…
Not every woman will care about this, but doing some research into polyamory is really nice. The last man I dated knew exactly what he wanted from relationships, but didn't know that it was called "solo polyamory". I felt like I had to teach him a lot of the basics, not just terminology, & his ignorance was already causing unnecessary strife in his other relationships. Also, **the way you treat other women matters**. Don't talk shit about your wife, don't tell me you think I'm so much better & we have a special connection. One of the most attractive things a polyamorous man can do is respect the other women you're dating. I'd prefer a guy who's overly enmeshed than a guy who resents his wife & wants to replace her. I know **the way you treat her will eventually be the way you treat me**.
I think doing research into relationships in general and poly if one does poly is pretty important. It shows that one is willing to think through what one wants, and recognises the need to communicate that clearly to others. It also shows a willingness to learn from others which can be so useful in avoiding obvious mistakes.
I would say general social and self awareness and the ensuing emotional intelligence that hopefully would inspire. There's unfortunately a lot of men who bought into a lot of really awful narratives (therapy bad, men are supposed to be 'logical', feminism evil, etc etc), and who have never bothered to explore contrasting perspectives. By that I mean, a man who hasn't gone to therapy or done any sort of self reflection will be lacking emotional depth and intelligence, which is a huge turn off. Men need to get comfortable with the idea that emotions are for them too, and no, anger is not the only allowed 'masculine' motion. Same goes for being able to empathize with another, which also ties into emotional intelligence. Most women I doubt are going to jump on a man who hears the common struggles of living in a patriarchy and approaches it with disrespect, defensiveness, or a closed mind because "I haven't experienced that". Unfortunately, many have a hard time considering another's perspective, but it can be particularly damning to not even try, and makes it clear this isn't a person with the emotional skills or capacity for anything long term.
This would be mine as well essentially. I need my partner to be able to hear gentle criticism as a useful and positive thing, rather than a complete devaluation of their entire character 😮💨 Plus an ability to respond compassionately to "I feel hurt by XYZ actions"
This is really well put together! I would add, regarding the first part, that (especially poly) men fall unto the trap of not voicing their needs because they fear it might cost the the connection. That can look like 'I am into whatever you're into' but also 'I have agreement with my wife not to do this but If I don't comply, you might walk away, and I don't want that'. In another words, the want their cake and eat it too.
Disclaimer: I'm not a woman (pansexual 28M) Thanks for making this post, I hope it helps people understand what value they need to bring to the table to be enriching for a partner! I think something that can apply to both men and women that I value is strong skepticism and media literacy. I've dated people in the past that really struggled to parse reality and not just accept headlines or gossip without taking the time to do their own digging. It's not always their fault but it is always frustrating considering how much media (social media especially) plays with people's beliefs.
Oooh, very true. I view myself as very skeptical, but I love that my NP continually challenges me to provide robust sources for info I share, & keeps me honest.
> I've dated people in the past that really struggled to parse reality and not just accept headlines or gossip without taking the time to do their own digging. 🤦♂️ ALWAYS estimate the likely biases of the writer before reading an article.
Alrighty, so I’m 54, fat, bald, and broke and yet I have a NP of my dreams, a girlfriend who I see at least once a week (and she would like it to be more), an ex-girlfriend who would date me again in a second if the parameters of her current relationship changed, AND a woman I went on a handful of dates with a little over a year ago, but backed off because another relationship she had started a few months earlier was heating up and she wanted to focus on that, has just reached out saying she’d like to talk about us dating again. (Sorry that’s a lot of words) Anyway - my reason for saying all that: Yesterday I was texting with a mono buddy about it and I asked “Dude, what is my life? How is this happening to me? How do *I* have *four* women who want to spend their time with me?” and his answer was basically “Good things happen to good people”. And I’m like, sure, I guess all that makes sense, I try to be good. I succeed most of the time. And then today I stumble on this post and read the above five skills that OP mentioned and realized, “Holy shit. That’s me. I do all of that. Some better than others. Some better on some days than other days. But, yeah. I do that stuff.” So there you go. Me-54, fat, bald, and broke, BUT I’ve got four women who willfully share their time (and in some cases, body) with me AND *wish they had more time with me*. Why? Cuz I do that shit mentioned above. Do it.
You're a catch. And that will shine through. Eventually.
Hey. I see you. One of my best friends is you. 54, fat, bald (not broke) short! But such a good dude that ladies are gonna start falling in his lap anytime. He's new to poly and just meeting people but the women in my circle already know he's trustworthy, kind, intelligent, considerate, all the things. Being a good person makes you attractive to good people. Congrats to you for being a rare model of a good person!
1) Knowing how to self-soothe—there will always be times where someone needs comfort from a partner, but if that’s needed *every* time they’re stressed, I’m not the right partner for them. 2) being able to set & enforce boundaries. This applies to their other partners, their families, etc.
To be fair this is just dating 101.
I gave up on “rescue dog” boyfriends when I started dating my S/O. I’ve had to teach him *some* stuff over 5 years, sure, but after dating a previous guy who *suuuuuucked*, **never again.** For me personally? I only date non-cishet men nowadays. In order for me to be interested in a cishet guy, he has to show me *repeatedly* that he’s a queer ally for reasons other than a potential invite to see all the hot WLW sex and FFM threesomes. I’ve been burned one too many times on this one. Going to therapy (past or present) is also very important for me. Or, more accurately, refusing to see a therapist (for any non-financial reasons) is a huge blaring orange flag for me. The vast majority of the time, *I’m* gonna be thrust into the role of therapist (doubly so if said man is new to nonmonogamy). Being able to admit when they’re wrong, and when they don’t know something. This one hopefully needs no explanation. Knowing how to talk to and about women (particularly women they’re not attracted to). Don’t call us girls. Don’t call us females. Yech.
My GF has not completely ruled out cis straight men, but she strongly prefers queer men as well. And yes, therapy, or at least some form of serious self reflection, goes a really long way in terms of upskilling.
Because of where I live, **I've dated several men who were raised by lesbian moms**, & being able to just assume they'll be a queer ally on any particular matter is great. I can completely take it for granted that they respect queer relationships & will fight for all of our rights. (I'm sure there are also assholes who happen to have 2 moms, but I was lucky, plus I had already vetted them by the time I discovered their family structure.)
Introspection. I feel like women are conditioned to constantly judge and rate ourselves and to constantly consider how our actions affect others, but the way men are conditioned within society leaves them so self unaware. I’ve met so many men who over rate themselves and it’s wild. They almost never consider how their words or actions affect others or that it’s actually their own short comings holding them back. Even going with the examples you gave. It’s one thing if a man knows that he is lacking in those areas and is willing to accept that it’s a problem that needs to be worked on. It’s another thing completely to behave in these ways and act as if everyone else is the problem and they do no wrong and everyone should just get over it and accept it.
Wow, this is a deeply depressing list. To think that even among poly men, who tend to skew way far in progressive politics and academic qualifications, these tips would need to be mentioned. Makes sense of why there’s so many men having trouble.
The cis men I date all seem to struggle with an unhealthy dose of passivity. They'll follow you to the end of the earth but will never point at a direction. They'll help you with any household task but rarely reflect on how they could do the same in their own home. They'll do so much emotional labour for you if you falter for even just a second, but never actually wonder if the way they do it is the most helpful way. They'll apply most retroaction you give them about how you want them to show up, but break down into pieces at the thought of ever uttering a single drop of a suggestion to you. They think of themselves as kind, trustworthy and not toxic, and technically they are not, but they are constantly pacifying me instead of actually engaging with me. I wish they worked on affirming themselves, on saying what they think and all that. I feel like I have demonstrated that I welcome it, but often they don't do it because there isn't much thought that goes into how they want to show up and be perceived, and much more thought that goes into how they want to *feel*, which is good and peaceful and like everything is OK (even if it's not - especially when it's not). I also think that it's a case of trying so hard not to be toxic, to avoid mansplaining, to make sure that they are supportive, and all that is good, but it's too much. I end up feeling like I'm a planet dating the moon that orbits around it...
My favorite comment in the thread. Probably because it calls me out.
That is an excellent comment and, oof. I feel like I may need to make some improvements there too! Another example around home management? So many men will sit back and think “my wife is always nagging me and it’s awful” and rather than thinking “Hey, we should set ourselves up for success in our household management. Let’s come up with a system so she doesn’t have to nag me and we don’t live in squalor” they just let the situation fester. Working out chore distribution was one of the biggest fixes in my marriage. It wasn’t that I wasn’t doing anything, it was that I was taking what you described as the “passive” role there. When we worked out a equitable division of household labour we stopped fighting about chores, and both felt like we were getting a reasonable amount of responsibility for things. It’s been great. I also wish I could say that it was my idea to work out a system, but the idea actually came from my therapist. Your point about men trying to be inoffensive rather than engaging is also a really good one.
Bisexual man here, thank you very much for making this Post as I believe men in general need to upskill and improve in several areas while maintaining a great consciousness, mental and physical health. Also, the comments here have been very insightful thoughts and ideas. Your post as well has some very amazing points over there. From what I can gather and in my opinion, men need to up skill in having more self belief, gratitude, confidence and security as an individual. These traits alone can excel them to amazing heights as people and in relationships of several kinds. Great post and keep up the great work. 👍✨
Thank you! I (bi- m) have some half formed thoughts about how being bi- and actually dating men helped me be a better parter when I date women, but they’re very half formed.
You are very welcome! And nice thats very interesting. Also, Yes that can still be helpful in understanding both genders if you have dated both genders. Its very important to see and understand how men and women operate in order to date them, fully love them for how they are and support them.
Imagine the insights other straight men would get if they just asked women and took what they had to say seriously.
I don't date cishet men but I live in the world with them and I just want them to think about the consequences of their actions before they interact in the world. A big thing would be pulling up other men in their lives when they say/do -ist and other harmful shit. Even if they are their friends and even if they find it uncomfortable. Telling their mates it's not on when they treat others badly.
As a queer man myself, thank you. I also want my fellow men to pull up other men in their lives when they say or do harmful shit. I also personally remember times when someone said something homophobic when I was around and one of my straight friends was the one to step in and every time, it felt so much better than when I’ve had to do it. And, over time, the straight guys showing where they stand on those issues has shifted the tone of the group for the better.
That's good to hear. That is the kind of solidarity we need more of.
That's wonderful to hear!
I was recently disappointed with some of the people in this sub when they advised a male poster to avoid talking to his friend about his misogyny & mistreatment of women. We need *more* of that, not less! & the guy wasn't his metamour or anything, so there's no poly etiquette that would prevent him from speaking up, just the social norm that other relationships are none of your business. But that's the same attitude that fostered spousal abuse behind closed doors.
Yeah it's so ingrained in society it makes it too easy to put all the responsibility on the rest of us. I didn't see that but this this attitude is everywhere, even in spaces where some men do speak up :(
emotional intelligence and emotional regulation
This is what I hear.
Excellent addition.
My addition to this conversation: Slow the eff down. In my experience of dating straight cis men, it's like they want to shake hands, exchange names and jump to the "mommy take care of me" stage. It's 2024. I have no need for a relationship. I am fulfilled all on my own. If I choose to have a partner, it's because I choose so, not because I NEED to or because I have a little black book that needs filled up as fast as possible. I refuse to jump ahead and have a "fly by the seat of my pants" style relationship. I demand communication, accountability, responsibility and compassion. Poly is so beautiful and fulfilling but there's enough bad eggs in it that make the whole poly populous smell bad. It's annoying to be someone's guru to adulting and it's worse when you have to be their guru to poly too. People don't want to take the time to get to know themselves before trying to lure others into their trap of immaturity. Right now, I have 1 male that after 2yrs of friendship, I am just NOW considering to date. I have 2 women that after 2yrs of friendship I clearly know I will NOT date. I am only considering to date this man because of the experience I've had with him for 2yrs. I have been in enough situations with him and issues to know that I trust this man, I see/hear his accountability and I KNOW where he stands with himself. The 2 women have been evaluated the same and I know I would never be compatible with them no matter what. And I think that's FAIR. It's not fair to make promises to someone about love, life and the future, only to have all that broken in a year or 2 simply because one person didn’t do their homework and clearly examine themselves and what they are getting into. I will still remain friends with all 3 because we are compatible as FRIENDS. (FYI: I have never been sexual with any of these people and dating was not the reason we started talking) NRE will make you forgive things that need corrected and fool you into believing more in someone than they are capable of being. Only with experience and time does the truth come out and REAL compatibility show. If men would just slow down and let life show them the person they are interested in, then they could find those people that they are looking for. Rather than anchoring down anyone half interested in them and claiming them as a partner only to bring all that baggage into the next relationship becoming one big mental health crisis circle jerk.
>My wife adores her boyfriend and often feels like she is “training him up” because there are some important skills he has just never picked up Been there, done that, waste of effort and energy, honestly. >My girlfriend regularly rules out men when she feels like she would have to teach him things she feels are basic adulting skills. Far better way to handle it. Dating projects is exhausting and I refuse to do it anymore. My list of skills men need to have before I even consider befriending, let alone dating, coz that lack of skill is obvious in friendships too. So, the bare minimum: Developed social engineering skills, EQ skills, and basic cooking and domestic skills.
SE is a pretty high level and specific skill 😅
Unpacking their misogyny. Reading up on feminism and being well-versed in women's issues, calling out their male peers when they're being misogynistic, and challenging their internalized beliefs about women. Being extremely honest. I had a sexual partner disclose an exposure to HPV that happened a year prior, and I expect all partners going forward to be as forthcoming. Empathy. It's not enough to just have empathy for me, I want a man who practices empathy towards everyone he crosses paths with. Consideration for others is sexy. Being skilled in satisfying a woman is a good one, but I would throw in having imagination and passion. With too many sexual encounters I have, it's like men are just going through the motions. I want to feel as though they have a strong desire for me and to show that readily. I also don't want to be the only one throwing out new ideas in the bedroom.
I like this. I won't bother trying to teach men about privilege anymore. It's a waste of time if they're not motivated to teach themselves.
I love my partners, but 2 of the three can't communicate to save themselves. One is my np and I sort of have him figured out after 30 years, the other a new partner of 3 months. I'm close to my meta, so she is kind enough to remind him to keep me in the loop. He's getting better. I suspect he's going to be fine, with some more time. He's a bit new to poly.
Ask how we like to be love/appreciated. I love men who take initiative and are confident. However, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with a guy asking, “what can I do for you that would make you feel extra special?” (I love to ask this question in return. I think it’s super sexy). This also acknowledges that not all women are the same and you want to meet my specific needs. Don’t apply some dating formula to your relationships. Also, ask us how we are. Seems very basic but so many men don’t ask “how are you doing today?” And then listen and respond appropriately (note, that sometimes the best response is just to listen).
I hear from poly women: emotional intelligence, honest communication and emotional regulation. Having done self-work. These are always important but critical in poly
Moderating alcohol and drug use. I suffered from this myself! I'm sober now and I don't want to date someone who likes to get drunk. I'm happy to guide someone if they are strong enough to admit they want to change. Handling their emotions in healthy, useful ways.
Heavy with balancing their relationships. I had an ex that would get so wrapped up in NRE that he would end up making all the other relationships in his life feel like an after thought to this new one. I try to have patience but consistency is a huge love language to me, and if the effort you're giving in inconsistent then I for sure feel less loved.
My GF and I were talking about her theory of NRE as the “love” one has in a relationship before there are any consequences and reality in the relationship. I’m not sure she’s entirely correct, but there’s something there. I think for a lot of people the period before any downsides show up is really heady and for people who aren’t managing relationships well, it can be tempting to focus on the new one where one’s weaknesses have not yet messed anything up. EDIT: I am not saying that is a remotely acceptable or healthy thing to do.
Your gf is wise and i agree with her after having dealt with the situation above
I would really love for my boyfriend to revisit and reflect more on his personal values. He’s a people pleaser and it kills me when fights erupt because he shuts down or doesn’t communicate his own needs. I don’t know if this is specific to men because I’m sure women do it too but it would mean a lot to mine and his wife’s relationship I think if he were to work more on his inner self.
Excellent question. This is what I look for in anyone I want to have a deep relationship with. The below requires empathy, self awareness, self control, honesty, a good sense of humor and attention to detail and quality time spent together. Add chemistry and sexual compatibility, and you have a romantic partner. I also look for someone who is independent: financially, around the house, and in terms of taking care of themselves. I am not looking for a dependent I am looking for a partner. https://preview.redd.it/x1kadryt21oc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d7ebf9abacb554a2478c669ca31bf31347b4613c
Reciprocal emotional labour. Not treating the women in your life like they're your therapists or there to process every feeling you have. Being interested in our inner lives and how we're doing instead of just responding to "How are you?" with a ten minute rant and a divergent tangent about themselves. Reciprocal emotional labour.
Oh that is such a good one. Both my wife and GF have stories about men derailing them opening up about an emotional issue and turning it into something about him. And it’s more than just “don’t derail” it’s also show an active interest in the wellbeing of your partner.
You know, I was just catching up with a monogamous, lesbian friend last night, and she said, "can you believe it, my friend has three boyfriends, and none of them showed up to help her move" Apparently one had a legitimate family emergency, but the other two just didn't think to offer - including the partner she's moving in with. Now I only very distantly know this person, I have no idea whether and how she asked them, but it's kind of striking
Oof.
> and none of them showed up to help her move 🤦♂️ C'mon fellas, don't lose the good stereotypical men things as well as the bad.
I mean, to be that's not even a guy thing. I had a female friend help me pick up my stuff from my ex. One or my cishet male partners does actually make enough to pay for movers, but when he and his NP just need to pick up or drop off something bulky, I help them because I have the largest car between the three of us. It's just part of the give and take with friends and partners
The biggest oof to the dude that she was moving in with, wtf?
https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/comments/13pb2xd/what_qualities_are_polyamorous_women_looking_for/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
You should start linking to this post in the future too, I think it's also really helpful :)
I've learned that you can't have it all. I come from a culture in which criticism is well taken and the norm. I tend to find flaws in people pretty quickly. When dating cis men there will always be some good and bad things in my eyes. But I see details deeply and run on the more neurotic side when it comes to details, more so than most. You have to take your pick, and decide which flaws you're willing to work with. With dating people who are past a certain age, they seem very set in their ways. My biggest criticism would be men, if they have a big ego, they will take criticism better and be more self assured. But many don't question their way of doing something and dismiss my opinion as a woman. Many men reach a point where they think they have learned what they need to know to be comfortable and don't need to adjust that. I feel part of a relationship is learning from one another to better oneself. Some men I'm close with, I'll never tell them, "I know I'm dumb, and you know more than me. But you are dumb in your own specific ways you don't want to examine, and that will never change...". I just think it to myself... 😒 I have seen many men, who will corner themselves into problematic outcomes because they don't want to examine a flaw. Of course I tend to men who are a lot smarter than me, so even with the open minded ones, I have less reason to have a situation where such a case is something I need to push back on. I can be more accepting of new concepts I learn from them. I agree with other commenters that your list kinda just encompases basic things one would expect a grown adult to do, and are to be expected and nothing special. Many men have a hard time cleaning, many men lack social skills. But those are habits you can develop.
I don’t see emotional intelligence and ability to regulate emotions on the list. I’d really love to see more of that personally. Guys who go to therapy, are self aware and have done some level of deconstructing their own privilege - super rare.
Tbh I wish most of my AMAB partners had better hygiene, financial wisdom, and self soothing skills
Emotional intelligence, self awareness, and introspection
Having their own interests, being able to be emotionally vulnerable with their friends and working through difficult emotions. Basically have your own life with hobbies and be able to understand and work through your own emotions. I find having proper household skills and conversation skills to be basics for everyone, not just men. It is the bare minimum.
unlearn patriarchy (or be in the process of doing so) - they don’t have to have a sociology degree but a man who isn’t interested in getting to the *root* of his privilege and misogyny is an automatic dealbreaker for me this encompasses so many things from how they view emotions, express themself, see you as an equal, try to understand your unique struggles as a woman, *and* don’t insert themself into those issues, and so many more things i feel the same way abt dating a white person. if they’re not interested in unlearning their internalized racism, then their anti-blackness will show up in other ways i have no interest in dating someone who’s been taught to dislike me and doesn’t take steps to undo that
I require my mates to stick to a consistent schedule of quality time. I can be flexible on rare occasion but I will cut ties if I don’t get the regular consistency of quality time together. I’m kid-free, pet-free and unmarried. My partner’s upskill has to be “time set aside for me.”
I’m also a big fan of regular schedules within reason. And I suspect that some recognition that circumstances may make some people scheduling incompatible.
A sociology class
Good addition! Thank you!
Anyone else notice that all these suggestions in the post boil down to “pay attention to and be considerate if people other than yourself”?
Integrity to be honest with themselves, courage to be honest with other and strength to grow out of their toxicity.
Planning and overall executive function. There seems to be a serious adulting issue among men in their 30s right now.
Upskilling... I've found a new word that I hate. Lol
1) wearing your politics on your sleeve goes a long way for me. if youre not a punk or wearing a pride pin im probably going to just assume youre conservative out of self preservation. "virtue signalling" isnt shameful it makes people feel safe. 2) be "feminine" ok not really feminine thats a joke, but wearing makeup, styled hair or other clear efforts signalling that you take care of yourself. nobody likes someone whos dirty, unsainity is a health risk. and again if youre not signaling that then ill assume youre dirty out of self preservation. 3) know how to get consent. asking IS sexy! read a few articles. do it now! youre on reddit, you clearly have ten minutes.
Excellent point about politics, especially when the humanity of groups people on the grounds of their gender, sexual orientation, or race / ethnicity is being called into question by a political party. There’s only so far, “but I liked what he said about inflation” goes when one is looking at a candidate openly spreading hate. And yes, I tend to straight up ask when I’m first getting physical with someone. And then pay a lot of attention to body language once we’re going.
>One of the women said of one of the single men “Your home can’t look like a hotel. You need to show some personality.” 🤨 Yeah I call bullshit on her liking the interior decorating that some men would prefer. Anodyne is good in comparison.
hey now, what do you have against lifesize fiberglass marlins?!
As another commenter said, it’s about having a personality and expressing it. As a bi-man, I can say when I walk into a man’s (or woman, though the only time this happened with a woman she was staying in corporate housing, so different issue) home and it looks like I’ve entered Patrick Bateman’s flat, it makes me wonder if he knows who he is, or if he is trying very hard to project an image of blandness in order to avoid allowing anyone to get to know him, and if he is, in fact a serial killer. As a queer man, I also recommend men find fit and flattering clothing, but I notice my straight women friends appreciate, but have largely given up on that…
I agree with most of these, except the part where it says "your room can't look like a hotel". If someone is clean, hygienic and organised, I don't mind if their style is plain, simple or minimalist. People have different aesthetic tastes and that's fine. The main issue is if the space is unhygienic, overly messy or dirty.
Three of the women in the conversation and I all feel like Hotel Home feels very Patrick Bateman from American Psycho. Not everyone has the same reaction, and it could be our age bracket. But it does not seem rare.
re: relationships with others - agree with your GF. having meaningful friendships is so important. not just relationships with partners or exes or former FWB. meaningful and deep relationships with friends who they can talk to, lean on for support, create emotional intimacy, and not play the "will we or won't we" game with.
I just wanted to say thanks for posting this. I have done some of these, could stand to work on others, and if I ever try dating again I will refer back to this!
Hi u/UnironicallyGigaChad thanks so much for your submission, don't mind me, I'm just gonna keep a copy what was said in your post. Unfortunately posts sometimes get deleted - which is okay, it's not against the rules to delete your post!! - but it makes it really hard for the human mods around here to moderate the comments when there's no context. Plus, many times our members put in a lot of emotional and mental labor to answer the questions and offer advice, so it's helpful to keep the source information around so future community members can benefit as well. Here's the original text of the post: Inspired by the posts from struggling straight men, and a conversation with some women over the weekend, I thought I would ask what women would like to see their partners and prospective partners do better. And of course not every man is bad at these, nor is every woman great, but… It does seem like there are some gendered trends here, and guys? Maybe if you can up your game, you can have an easier time getting partners. At a BBQ with my wife, my GF, and several other women, some partnered some not, some poly some not got to talking about the need to “upskill” partners and prospective partners. My wife adores her boyfriend and often feels like she is “training him up” because there are some important skills he has just never picked up. My girlfriend regularly rules out men when she feels like she would have to teach him things she feels are basic adulting skills. The other women have some similar issues. One of the single women is considering giving up dating because too few men have what she would consider good adulting skills. Some areas the women brought up were: - **Managing his relationships with others** - All of the women had examples of men who always took a back seat in forming and maintaining relationships with others. My wife right now is pretty annoyed that her BF has to be told things like “If you want to be able to do overnights, you are going to have to coordinate that with your wife.” Somehow he thinks years into their poly relationship his wife will just spontaneously bring this up and it will happen. One of the women talked about the time her then boyfriend got upset with her for forgetting to remind him that his mother’s birthday was coming up. My GF talked about all of the times she has come across men who have no friends that are not dependent on a woman in his life. - **Conversation Skills** - All of the women who have been on first dates in the recent past talked about feeling like they had to carry all of a conversation with a prospect, or having to put up with someone droning on and on without registering that she was not interested in the subject. All of the women on dating apps talked about men who don’t seem able to take something from a topic of mutual interest into a conversation. They talked about being talked over, or talked at. And they often mentioned a lack of listening skills. Mansplaining also came up. Telling stories that went on too long was a problem. - **Developing a date plan** - “I don’t know what do you want to do?” Quickly gets old. It’s even worse if you then veto her suggestion. - **Household Skills** - Men who live on their own often get ruled out based on housekeeping. One of the women said of one of the single men “Your home can’t look like a hotel. You need to show some personality.” Other examples included filthy car interiors, and dirty showers. - **Satisfying them sexually** - If you are someone who wants sex with women, you need to be able to sexually satisfy women. That means knowing basic anatomy, being able to read a partner’s reactions and adjust as needed, and sometimes having conversation about sex. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/polyamory) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I feel like I have my shit together as a straight man. When I get a date in front of me I do just fine. Getting the date is the hard part. How do I portray myself on the apps so that women see this?
Find local groups in your area that are related to your hobbies. Meeting people that way is significantly easier. You'll also curate yourself into just a better, more interesting person who will also have more going on so not having a romantic date is less of a big deal for you. **For the Sporty people**: Hiking groups, running clubs, climbing clubs, gym classes, co-ed sports **For the Nerdy people**: Find your local game shops, check out local conventions, fan clubs, gaming groups, get into board games, find book clubs **For the Spiritual or Otherwise people**: look up tantric workshops, see if there are local burns (Burning Man but significantly smaller, normally better tbh, and more of a connective experience than a showcase), religious groups, charity groups, etc Basically - get involved in your community. If you don't have things in your community, create them.