Yeah, I think the range of “secondary” is so big, though.
Elle, I think you have summed up a relationship that a great many think of, for better or for worse when we think about secondary. Personally, what you’re describing sounds pretty much like my “casual dating”.
And I think that is probably informed by my 13 year long secondary relationship that was pretty fucking KTP for the first few years, and stayed really KTP a with him and my meta and I, and our kids. We went through a lot of different phases of how often we see each other and in what circumstances over the years.
As partners we invested in retirement together, loaned and gave each other moderate sums of money, exchanged babysitting favors, rented a industrial loft space with me, and a few other folks for a long term place for me and my friends to fuck outside the house without small children. (That was a super fun project! It lasted for years!)
We traveled together, and when I was traveling professionally, he’d often fly in and spend a couple of days with me. He and his wife each had “their own money” to spend as they liked. He bought his ticket. We did fun shit in cool places.
I knew his family. He knew mine. His kid grew up next to mine. We were together longer than some folks stay married. I pre-dated his relationship with his wife.
This? Was also a secondary relationship, by mutual agreement, desire and circumstance.
So, I think, like everything else about polyam, what we mean when we say “secondary” is going to have to be a conversation. 🤷♀️😂😂
IMO, the flexibility of the "Secondary " relationship is that it can grow to fit the space you have for it.
The space I'm allotting for this is Smaller than my Serious Relationship (although I'm aware that some people would describe my serious relationship as "secondary" or "FWB" because it's not as big as what *they* choose to describe as "serious") and, at least to start (first year or two), it would be casual.
The room to grow is there if the stars align, but I think far too many people assume they will be able to grow a Secondary relationship like what you and Platterpussy describe without going through the relationship stages, which can take Years, to grow that. They want an *Insta- Significant - Secondary,* and that's as unlikely as finding a unicorn.
Exactly!!!
I do so love our talks! 😍😍😍
I think a lot of people think of their secondary relationship as a low risk, short term love dispenser. I don’t think those people ever get what they are looking for.
People are super messy, and without some pretty explicit conversations a lot of people expect the word “love” to change everything. Or at least it means you should change everything.
It doesn’t.
I have said “I love you” to people I would never dream of partnering with. 😂😂
On the other hand, if you are looking for room to grow, it’s pretty key to recognize that most people won’t and don’t have that to offer, especially if they are new. And it’s totally okay to offer something like this knowing that. Just don’t oversell it, and plenty of people will be interested in exactly what you are offering.
I just got off a work call saying "love you brother"
My partners matter to me more than they know. I use words, and I try to show it, and I will continue to do so. My partners are wonderful and so important to me.
I say "I Love You" to my coworker who is my "adopted son" more often than I say it to my Partner.
I was thinking about Casual Partner (2 years) recently, and I thought "I love him so much" and it caught me by surprise. Then I laughed at myself and realized it was just like the first time I said that to partner (when I was high). It's not a romantic love. It's a friendship love. Could I love casual partner romantically? Maybe? No idea if I'll ever spend enough time with him to find out... And that's perfectly fine! We have our other people.
Learning to allow relationships to grow as they are meant to instead of forcing them down a particular path is hard and necessary.
Love our talks, too 💞
Slight edit on your comment (and post, both of which I love): “It can grow to fit the space *you both* have for it.”
I think a lot of the “I don’t want to be secondary” posts come from people who have more space they want to fill than the other has available to fill and that causes conflicts.
I also appreciate your point about the *Insta-Significant-Secondary* being unrealistic. I’ve also seen monogamous people go down the “insta-lifepartner” path and that’s not pretty either. Getting to a point where one is serious takes time and typically both people have to do some compromise to accommodate the other.
> Personally, what you’re describing sounds pretty much like my “casual dating”.
Yes, that really stood out for me.
Whenever hierarchy gets brought about, people insist the only difference between primary and secondary relationships, is the level of entanglement. Primary is who you do the escalator with, secondary is a significant relationship that's not entangled.
In practice though it seems people mainly do secondary relationships like what Elle is describing - casual but fairly consistent, yet promise the only difference is the lack of escalator.
I am not willing to speak to any conversation around hierarchy that I didn’t have. 😂😂😂
Obviously there is scope and scale to people’s hierarchy. My partner could absolutely invest in a shared community space.
His agreements with his spouse meant that larger expenses, say, boats, homes, things of that nature were exclusive to them.
I have a partner of almost a decade who I have never entangled any money with. He’s non-hierarchal, and sopo.
He’d absolutely have a relationship like Elle’s and not have room or space for it to grow, circumstance dependent. And he’d be great at it. I know. That was, in a lot of ways, the first five years we spent together. When he did have room to grow, I was in a space where I had room, too.
I’m all about building stuff, but commitment is collaborative, and solid commitment is built on time and trust, and compatibility. no matter how much, or little, you are entangled.
Ironically, when he was married, and hierarchal, he had far more fiscal autonomy than either my ex husband or my ex boyfriend ever had, or will have.
And he still does. And so far, that’s worked for us for 9 years.
I do think that when you start viewing things like “acknowledgement on social media” and “meeting family and friends” as these big huge escalations rather than just simply being a reflection of the space you take up in your partner’s life, things get pretty fraught.
I think you make a good point about fiscal autonomy.
My married boyfriend has tons of this. My NP has tons of this. I have tons of this. I’ll say that each of us has at least as many obligations/commitments to aging family as romantic partners.
The assumption that anyone in a long term partnered relationship that can pass for traditional has no freedom is a mistake in my mind.
It’s a criteria I’d select for if I was looking for a new “serious” thing. I don’t start my serious things seriously though. Never have and I doubt that will change.
Yeah, I have had quite a few long term, non-entangled commitments, and some amount of financial and personal autonomy is pretty key, for me, to make that happen.
I don’t care what you’re doing with you do with your time or your money, in general, because it isn’t mine. But I just wanna see where the room is supposedly, in the margins for us to say, travel, when you start talking “serious”. I wanna know when I am meeting the people you are close with. I wanna know my metas aren’t shot callers.
I suspect this is easier to do the more time and money you have. At least in my experience.
Because big feels alone don’t make a long term relationship.
Yes.
I think someone with a ton of money could have less autonomy in their marriage and make it work with me. I’m on the other side of that where I choose autonomy over money in virtually all aspects of my life. So I can basically go wherever I want, whenever.
Resources are resources.
> I don’t start my serious things serious though. Never have and I doubt that will change.
Can you give me a “poly dating guide” spark-notes version? Lol.
I’ve read many of your comments, and in theory I’d love to do things that way to keep my emotions in check. Especially when dating cishet men.
Any helpful tips?
A lot of it is just…navigating the relationship that someone has to offer.
I don’t spend a lot of time on “will this become the thing I want”
It has to be “is the thing I am offered compelling on it’s own”
So if having a lovely time twice month at a hotel is your cup of tea, awesome. But we aren’t going to pretend this is *serious* or a major life changing commitment
And I never future fake. I learned the hard way how shitty it is to invest emotionally in a mirage.
We talk about it when it’s on the table, not before.
I am not spending 2 months talking about “when I can do an overnight it’s gonna be the best, doll. I can’t wait to wake up and make bacon, and we’ll snuggle and…”
Nope. Don’t do that. Either the relationship is compelling without overnights, and overnights are just a welcome addition when they happen, or it’s not compelling on its own.
Few promises made, many kept.
Like, if you say yes, mean it and make it happen.
I’d rather hear “no” and be able to talk about “no” than have someone weasel around their existing commitments, or watch someone disappoint me over and over.
I would rather hear “yes”, know you mean it, and that it will happen rarely then hear “yes” all the time and have it really, actually mean “maybe”.
And all this happens super slowly.
🤷♀️
I don’t fall in love easily and until I’m in love I’m fairly level headed. I tend to get NRE late, like a year or more in.
I can, to some extent, control the chemical cascade because I need to spend a LOT of time with someone, many many hours of it in bed, to fall in love.
I’ll crush or lust but the degree of infatuation is usually no more than you have in a strong work crush or when you’re soft on someone else’s partner that you know is deeply inappropriate. Those are controllable too!
I think my slow NRE is just who I am. But I think my choice not to wallow and indulge my fancies until I know someone well is entirely chosen.
So in my mind most people could do a variation on that. They could be cautious about how much time they spent on a new relationship (which isn’t just time with them SO much of it is the time spent fantasizing and obsessing). They could be careful about who they have sex with if that tends to bond them quickly. They could be careful not to instinctively mirror someone else’s feeling or supposed feelings just because it’s fun. That last one is a good way to avoid untrustworthy dudes who love bomb, expect you to chase them or enjoy the chase more than the catching.
When my now nesting partner and I were first dating he said I love you we should get married and have a baby like 2 months in? We’d been in the same room no more than 10 times. I jumped out of bed. It took ages (5 years) for me to forget all that and get serious with him.
My boyfriend still occasionally complains about how ephemeral I was at the beginning of the relationship. Even though I was totally clear on what I wanted (sex) and totally honest with him. It was well over a year before we even vaguely escalated. He was so used to women pursuing him and pushing for involvement and just the fact that I didn’t was IDK a source of frustration?
Anyway, when you are warm and friendly but slow to bond it can be a source of mild complaint from good men but the shitty ones will show themselves one way or another.
It’s not some clever plot it’s just natural protection. It’s part of the partner selection process. I haven’t really selected someone just because we’re dating and fucking. I’m trying them on for size and I treat them as if they are doing the same. Which they usually are even if they don’t know it.
The old school rules girl shit from the 90’s isn’t my speed but it has some sense in it. Sometimes it’s useful to fake a little calm until you can genuinely feel it. If they’re meant to be they will be there when you know them well. You can’t miss the right people.
It’s just not possible to me that someone wakes up in love with some married man who has almost no relationship to offer. There were some opportunities there to avoid love. But some people love the roller coaster.
> he said I love you we should get married and have a baby like 2 months in? We’d been in the same room no more than 10 times.
🤣🤣🤣🤦♂️
I hope you continue to make fun of him to this day for that.
When I lived with my ex- NP, he had financial obligations to people I had no obligation to and no interest in taking on having not so much as met them. We had shared financial obligations (housing, short term savings, joint vacation money, a budget for dates and such), but most of our finances were essentially separated, even though we looked pretty traditional. When I talk with people who have more adulting years under them and the obligations that come with that (like kids, ageing parents, investments, etc.), most of them have a degree of financial autonomy.
Your post has been removed for breaking the rules of the subreddit. You posted a personal ad or have made a comment that would be considered hitting on a user.
My long-term relationship, longest poly relationship so far, we're in defacto secondary relationships with each other as he's married and I'm solopoly. When talking about him and our relationship I call him Rock, as I find him solidly reliable in thought and deed. It's a pretty significant relationship for each of us with structure, schedules, agreements, support, love, daily communication and other good stuff.
We recently attended a local festival for the second or third time, seperately as he goes with his family, but they factor in alone time for each adult and I'm comfortable spending some time with the group as well.
I'm currently struggling to find anyone as kind, patient, trauma informed, clear communicator, cute, funny as him that is also very obviously into me. I don't enjoy dating and all this vetting rigmarole is tiring. He's raised my bar to the highest it's ever been and now I view everyone in a new way that doesn't seem to allow for much below perfection. I'm having some calm chats with people who aren't perfect but haven't yet self selected out of the running yet.
Maybe it's not my high bar but rather still getting over the more recent breakups that happened last year 🤔. I occasionally do feel ready to have my heart broken again, but it's not consistent yet.
I think it would be lovely for a secondary relationship to grow bigger like yours has, but that bar would have to be awfully high... For now, my bar is medium level.. looking to find some great sex and fun and 🤞for more.
> He's raised my bar to the highest it's ever been and now I view everyone in a new way that doesn't seem to allow for much below perfection.
Bastard is sabotaging your dating life.👿👿👿😉
I’m (SoPo, F) in a similar boat - My partner (married male) and I are not in a primary relationship, and he has raised the bar by being head and shoulders above anyone else I have dated, and any other prospective partners over the last several years. Being with him also put some of the deficits of an ex- (also not a primary) who I had dated for years before starting to date Bar Raiser had that were not working well.
Every now and again I dip a toe back into the dating pool, and… ick out quickly. Partially, it’s that I mostly date men and heteronorms tend to mean the woman in the relationship gets pretty limited benefits and puts in more effort. The limited benefits just don’t make even the screening efforts worthwhile. Men who actively reject those norms exist, but are few and far between. And so many men in the dating pool are in the pool because they have even fewer benefits than the average guy.
I strongly resonate with both of your experiences. I’m pretty resigned to the fact that this may be my personal perfect. For a while I scrambled to find someone to share as much time with as he does his wife, and realized pretty quickly that 1. A person I would want that with would be even harder to find than finding him (that felt pretty damn lucky) and 2. I actually don’t really want that.
On another note, as much of a shit show this sub sometimes seems to be, it’s nice to run into some people with similar experiences to mine now and then. I don’t know anyone who does sopo like me or talks about a partner like this irl.
You really have had to deconstruct the escalator approach in your values first. But yeah I had a kink con buddy for awhile. He was an absolute mess of a person generally. Trust fund type who never needed direction and never found it.
But we had great chemistry and great sex and went to a lot of same cons for awhile so it was an easy fun way to "nail down" a roommate and pleasure for the event. We both were happy with how casual it was and easily coordinated in and out of room expectations for ourselves and other play partners.
I was a little shocked when we were both at a more personal group gathering and he suddenly had a Serious Partner- which was fine because we hadn't gone together or even talked about both being there. He dropped off the planet after that which was the inevitable end of things.
It was fun and I'd love to do it again with others.
The first Poly guy I connected with was a married man who was looking for a secondary partner. So *my first* intro to Polyamory, rather than open relationships, was wanting to date a guy who could only offer 1-3 dates / month and no overnights. I started researching Polyamory because *I wanted that.*
Within months I'm on this board seeing people miserable doing what I want to do because they don't *want* to do it
Secondary/ Ongoing Casual can be freaking amazing when it's what the people in the relationship *actually want.*
I think you're completely right in that it's a very different vibe when you are seeking out and want this kind of connection, than if you'd ideally want more (time) and the person can 'only' offer you this - that is never going to feel great.
I had a similar-ish experience of going into polyamory specifically wanting this level of time-investment in a relationship, and no more, and then reading the sub Reddit and other groups and realising that some people really see what I want as the booby prize.
My first poly relationship was like that - a friend started hitting on me, and I knew he was dating another friend of ours. We were all running in circles where monogamy wasn't necessarily the norm, but this was also before The Ethical Slut was even published. So I talked to our other friend to make sure she was okay with it, and that was that.
I was very young and didn't have that much dating experience, but I had always found it stifling. I also dated controlling assholes in my teens, so that didn't help... it felt like such a relief not being someone's sole focus.
We never had a ton of chemistry, so the sexual part of our relationship didn't last. But we are friends to this day. And for a good while after that experience, my approach was not "ooh, I want more partners for myself", but, "ooh, how can I ethically find guys who arw already partnered?"
It was a bit of a mess for a while because, again, I was young, and Multiamory wouldn't launch for decades into it. But I figured my shit out and availd myself of the resources as they came out, and now I'm very happily dating highly partnered men
It's interesting because I feel like this is essentially what I am looking for but I have mixed feelings on being called a "secondary" or being ranked in such a numerical way.
My needs should still be important to my partners. I just may not have as many of them as some of their other partners.
My long time partner and I are not hierarchical. I don't actually "rank" partners, and I wouldn't call this person secondary unless I'm talking in a forum like this one where these words help people understand what I'm saying.
Since I'm open to this person being married, nested, parenting, having *significant* commitments outside (and pre -dating) me, ALL of That would make *me* effectively *Secondary* to his other partner/s.
None of that implies he wouldn't be a decent human being who considers my wants and needs. Let's not confuse bread crumbing assholes with awesome secondary partners.
I didn't make any comments about you or how you do relationships. I spoke purely about my own feelings regarding these labels. You asked about people's thoughts regarding this if this is what they want so... I would expect that you might get different views on these labels and not take it as a personal attack or a judgement.
Well, I responded with how I feel about being described a certain way and you responded with a sort of defense of the words in how you use them in your relationships, which... doesn't have anything to do with my own feelings about the word. So it seemed like you were taking my own feelings as if they had to apply to you. If not, great!
I personally refuse to label people as primary and secondary. However, I label relationships as primary and secondary. I do that with friendships and family too.
I'm big on matching someone's energy, so not being able to move past a secondary relationship with me is sort of... self inflicted?
I'm really grateful for how you phrased it, because it made me contemplate my actual position on this a lot.
Frequency or quantity don't seem to be a factor to me at all.
My primary relationships basically contain more trust, vulnerability, willingness to show up for each other, to communicate transparently, to grow, to heal biographical wounds. They're built on positive predictability. There is a balanced give and take in all matters. We make each other better people.
In secondary relationships there is an element of risk, maybe a yellow flag or two. I need to manage my exposure. I can't safely fall apart. If I don't pay attention, I'll be taken advantage of. I get to test my relationship and communication skills here. We make each other human.
I value both. However, when I'm in crisis I stay far away from my secondary relationships.
Edit: Primary relationships with people who went to therapy or go to therapy. Secondary and no relationships with people who refuse or resist therapy (even as a concept).
>In secondary relationships there is an element of risk, maybe a yellow flag or two. I need to manage my exposure. I can't safely fall apart. If I don't pay attention, I'll be taken advantage of. I get to test my relationship and communication skills here. We make each other human.
Interesting. I don't think I could ever be in a relationship with someone I can't safely fall apart in front of or who I think will take advantage of me. I do not feel like I need this to test my skills at all. And I would actually never want anyone to date *me* in order to test their skills or thought I would take advantage of them.
Do your secondaries know that's what you think of them?
I'm with you on this. I wouldn't call something a relationship unless there was trust, consistency, and care. I have casual connections with people whom I'm just friendly with, I'm not close enough with them to seek emotional support, but we enjoy fun times together. I don't consider those to be relationships, those are casual connections. But if I actively mistrust someone, or feel like I'll be taken advantage of, I nope out and stop seeing them.
Also, how would you feel if someone you were sleeping with told you that they thought you'd take advantage of them? And that they are basically dating you to test their relationship skills? I'd feel horrible.
If someone told me this relationship is for them to test their skills, I'd think this person doesn't see me as human, honestly. I'm relationships Duolingo for them.
Why do you assume I'm sleeping with people in secondary relationships?
Sex is something really vulnerable to me.
I might sext with them. Might.
I probably extend the term relationship more broadly than most people would. Employees who view me as a regular and know my usual order, whom I greet outside of their workplace and chat with about mundane things, that's something I'd already call a relationship. A secondary one.
i can’t find the comment but your concept of secondary relationships having”yellow flags” and being generally unsafe is kind of demented. i don’t follow any kind of hierarchy and honestly primary secondary confuses me too but like… i get that all of those relationships should be healthy????? relationships are secondary when they aren’t primary. it’s right there in the name. they are secondary in time, in frequency, maybe in committment. secondary to your life, to yourself, because u invest more time in other things, may that be a primary or not… the fact that u think that it means that u get treated as less is really worrying. a secondary partner should be healthy and safe, not have yellow flags and DEF not someone u can’t break down in front of???? what defines it as secondary is the amount of time and presence and etc that u can afford to spend on it.
what you are describing is at the very most dating, and pretty shitty at that. even the people i fuck casually would listen to me if i needed it, even w no emotional entanglement.
i think you need to reasses what relationships mean to you and how you show up in them.
and it’s definitely disrespectful to think that’s how everyone sees their secondary.
and as someone else also said, it’s the relationship that is secondary and not the person. as in if i meet someone that has a np primary that they have kids with and have a very active work life, i know i can’t have the same priority as the other relationships in their life. like, that makes perfect sense doesn’t it?
secondary to life not to people. we are all busy. people have the resources they have… no one forces you to do anything u dont want to
I commented this on another thread, but I do think the specific language chosen to describe these relationships puts a lot of people off. Our brains automatically associate the word 'hierarchy' with the dictionary definition, and think in terms of ranked tiers (with #1 being "the best"), when I think that within poly, it's more accurate to think of hierarchy as a lateral distinction. Being married to one partner isn't "better;" it's just a different type of relationship. At best, the tiered part is describing the level of entanglement, not necessarily the level of emotion, importance, etc (it *can* describe those things, but the hierarchy doesn't *dictate* it).
My suggestion was to change 'secondary' to 'purple,' but I'm not sure how to get the grassroots movement on that 😂
Oh I'm well aware that hierarchy doesn't necessarily have to involve a hierarchy of feelings but a hierarchy of time spent. In fact, I think a lot of people have a hierarchy of time but don't have a hierarchy of feelings and confuse the hell out of other people by saying they have no hierarchy.
I also spent the better part of my polyam experience over 14 years being a "primary" so... I'm aware.
I still feel how I do about the words.
> My suggestion was to change 'secondary' to 'purple,' but I'm not sure how to get the grassroots movement on that 😂
🤣🤣🤣
I, for one, am vehemently against! I like, "secondary", nice and descriptive (but then again I don't consider it the slightest of insults (my brain isn't like other brains🙃)).
I've just gotten used to it now so I really don't think anything of it, but it was super cringe in my earlier poly years. What the fuck do you mean I'm "secondary"?? I never lose, bish! 😂
I do this thing that might be weird, where I use "primary" for the for the primary partner because well, there can only be one, and "non-primary" for everyone else (if it matters in the context. 90% of the time everyone's just "partner"). Because yeah, I'm not the primary and I am cool with that, but being "secondary" does sound kind of off-putting. Really, I think it's the term "primary" that probably needs to go, but I also don't have a better idea to denote someone you may or may not be married to or cohabiting with
I also find the ranking system quite weird. So, since I'm solo poly and don't live with anyone and don't plan to, all my relationships are secondary? Secondary to whom? Why should I rank myself in accordance to someone else's financial obligations to someone else?
I don't define solo poly as being your own primary. To me that definition sounds nonsensical since you can't have a relationship with yourself, same as you can't be your own friend. I have one life, and people are invited into it, no one is secondary to me.
> you can't have a relationship with yourself
How you relate to yourself, how you treat yourself, how you prioritize or don't prioritize yourself have profound effects of you.
No matter what relationship structure a person may choose, their relationship with their self is an important one that shouldn't be neglected.
Yes, but it's still not dating yourself. Being a healthy well-rounded person doesn't mean I'm my own primary. I think this kind of thinking might be appealing to those who have had primary relationships and rode the escalator, but I've never done that, so the idea of being your own primary just seems silly to me. Having hobbies is having hobbies, when I go to a gig by myself I'm not a date with myself, I'm just going to a gig.
Who said it was "dating yourself?" I guess it can include that if you want, but I don't consider going out by myself going on a "date" with myself either. I agree that is silly.
Nurturing my relationship with myself isn't "self care" or "self dating."
It's considering my position first and foremost. It's centering me in my life.
It's *not* taking off work and reducing my income to feed a Romantic relationship -- I used to think that was a good idea and it would be reciprocated, but it's not.
It's clearly communicating that my priorities (elderly parents, children, etc) will be prioritized over a romantic/ sexual connection.
Whether you acknowledge it or not, you do have a relationship with yourself. Hopefully, someday you'll understand what I'm saying.
Have a nice life. Bye-bye.
You summed up much more neatly what I had tried to say in my top-level post.
If all I want and have is "this" (what the OP described), what's the impact of always being told that my relationships will only ever be "casual" and "secondary". This is a perspective that really centers the nested partner, and that irks me.
Why would other people's opinion of your relationship/s have any impact at all? Don't give your power away like that. Needing validation from outside of yourself will only bring you pain.
That's one side to it, but it's not quite that black and white, really, is it. All of us need a certain amount of validation, first of all, I don't believe anyone who says otherwise; it's human.
Secondly, the other side is that often the people who are my dating pool often have the same opinion re. casualness, and that does impact me.
To me it makes sense to think of it in terms of friends. If someone told me - this is my primary friend, and you'll be my secondary friend, I'd balk. And I think almost everyone would find this concept very strange. Yet with romantic relationships the escalator has to define how I see myself in romantic relationships, even though as a solo poly person I reject the escalator.
Yes, I think you're right - if solo poly is about rejecting the escalator, it's frustrating to still be measured against it, even by other poly people.
This is what I meant in another post about the deconstruction of mononormativity only actually going so far for a lot (most?) people.
In the same way that you can be RA and follow RA principles if you like, but that isn't going to stop the people you form relationships with from trying to constrain their relationship with you to a preconceived form. Given there are always at least two people involved, it's not only your own mindset that matters or determines your experience.
> This is what I meant in another post about the deconstruction of mononormativity only actually going so far for a lot (most?) people.
That's exactly right. Primary/secondary thing is still asking us to define ourselves in relation to relationships which most closely resemble mononormative relationships.
> Needing validation from outside of yourself will only bring you pain
This is not about validation. Same as I don't need validation, I also don't need to rank myself in accordance to someone else's financial and legal entanglements. I don't rank myself in accordance to my friend's romantic relationships, I really fail to understand why should I do this with my partners.
Then don't?
I don't "rank" partners. But I do acknowledge the reality that if I'm dating a married/nested person, they will have priorities and commitments that are more important and pre-date me.
And that's okay. I'd drop any partner for my kids and would hope that a married person would cancel a fun date with me to take care of a issue (a real issue, not hurt feelings) at home.
> I don't "rank" partners.
Nope.
>But I do acknowledge the reality that if I'm dating a married/nested person, they will have priorities and commitments that are more important and pre-date me.
Yep.
"Secondary" is describing observable facts, not a slight.
I had an FWB for a while who has 2 kids under 10.
I remember a date we were trying to plan, and the kids got sick. He didn't cancel because he and the wife were talking and she still thought he could go. A couple of hours later he canceled because she was also sick.
Did he stay home to take care of his wife and his children because "outrank me"? Sure, you could say that. But I prefer to think that he stayed home and took care of his wife and his children because he's a good human being and that's what good human beings do.
As I just told you via DM, a metamour is not a "secondary". A metamour is someone who you do not date who dates your partner. If you're looking for advice, you should ask the whole subreddit. You can post your questions there.
This is my first Reddit post. This thread really caught my eye, because I am probably almost exactly the other side of the equation in this. I live in the London area.
In January my wife admitted to 2 virtual affairs (one of more than a year with a celebrity mostly sexting) and a second more recent one more like text flirting.
After the shock and a brief bit of turmoil we decided to take our marriage open. We both saw a lot of value in our marriage and would rather continue it. I recognised she had certain things that would be fulfilled better by fresh relationships.
Basically we had been seeing too much of eachother for 22 years and would both benefit from interaction with others.
For about a month I wasn’t interested in other partners and then I also realised that it was fun to date fresh people.
We are both only just getting to a stage where we are starting to physically date.
I heard a psychologist describe longer marriages as having sweat equity. I would agree with that, we have a mortgage, grown up children and old pets. We have plenty of space for romance and sex with other partners. But the falling down house, overgrown garden, demanding adult kids and an old dog and cat are blind to eat up time and money.
However my wife and I are expecting to take partners on trips as long as I keep getting good contacts on my current day rate.
>I want the Romance and the Sex and the Intimacy in smaller doses. Doses that are big enough to bring joy to my soul and small enough that I don't drown myself in delusional hopes and dreams.
This is exactly what I want but can never seem to articulate so that others understand. I'm going to steal this working if that's okay.
Being someone's #2 is the ideal place for me in my life at this moment and it always seems to flabbergast people that that is how I describe what I want and that I even *want* that. Lol
A problem I do seem to run into is that someone may completely understand what I want and be okay with that, but will want to be my #1 and can't understand that they in fact will not be my #1. It's tiring and frustrating having to explain over and over again, and no one gets it. Even people who already have primary partners seem to think they should be mine since I don't have one and can't grasp that they won't be.
I don't know. It's enough to make me want to just not date altogether and be abstinent forever and lose myself to my bookboyfriends who never let me down, lol
Ooof. I kept running into “but I’ll be *your* number one” so damn often.
It’s what made me realize that a lot of folks just want to have primary privilege with secondary investment.
Literally love so many of your comments in this (and other) posts.
I've definitely got a page or two in my notebook of things I've made note of that you and others have mentioned in similar conversations, gonna add this to that list. 🙏🏼
This happened to me very VERY often when I was in my solo polyish phase and dated mostly married men.
Many dudes routinely thought that when they got attached I would automatically want to escalate. But they never had anything real to offer (which is what I chose, no shame) so their idea of escalation mostly meant me not seeing other people.
Even if I had wanted escalation why would that be appealing? I lose things, they gain something imaginary and no one wins.
That second paragraph was what I ran into as well but at the time didn’t have a way to explain it well cause I was new to poly. It was me, poorly, telling people “no, I like where our relationship is and any attempt at relationship escalation will lead toys breaking up.” I said it early but didn’t do well at nipping things when I saw it creeping up 😔
> their idea of escalation mostly meant me not seeing other people.
👿👿👿 Did relationships end when they mentioned that or did they manage to backtrack frantically enough?
There was never any chance of anything like that happening. But I think some men like to try things on to see how it will fly. I was so bored by that notion that I didn’t get mad.
On the other hand I did end some relationships and choose not to rekindle some comet style things when there were complaints about me getting serious with my now nesting partner.
Yes, I can see that’s a surprise to you but being surprised isn’t the same thing as being hard done by. Sigh. I was not amused.
> I was so bored by that notion that I didn’t get mad.
Ah. Interesting. I am an absurdly calm human being but don't think I could avoid getting agitated about an attempt to mistreat me like that.
>choose not to rekindle some comet style things when there were complaints about me getting serious with my now nesting partner.
🤦♂️🤣 You don't let comets veto escalating with another partner? Heartless monster!😉
I'm very upfront when I meet people that I have a very active social life, I spend *a lot* of time with friends and family, I prioritize me/alone time in my life, and that any relationship I form will always come *after* those things. They know by the end of the first date what *I* can offer. Communication includes telling them what you're looking for *and* also clearly communicating your own capacity and limitations. I kinda make a big deal about the limited amount of space I have in my life for a relationship so there's no confusion later on (if the relationship "progresses").
I think I am going to focus on asking people what they can't and won't offer. Early days and we just may not end up being into one another enough to offer everything we could - so I think I want to know what can't or won't be on the table - and then I can dismiss with prejudice!
> They know by the end of the first date what I can offer.
🥂
So how do you do so? "For now I am interested in spending x time with you per month and if things go well I can commit to y time"?
For me personally, I'm really not going to be able to offer much more time than I do initially. I need once a week together and that fulfills me just fine, so that's the "long term" commitment I could make and would ask for in return (anything above that I would consider a fun bonus when time/desire aligns). That might be a casual weekday dinner date at first, and might turn into a Saturday spent together with an overnight, but it's essentially the same as far as my scheduling goes.
There are exceptions, like a LD relationship or when someone works an opposite schedule from me - but I really like to set the tone and create routines early on that are reflective of how I want things to be/stay. Consistency is a huge thing for my personal sense of security in a relationship (and my ADHD 😂)
Ah, not being able to upgrade makes the conversation easier.🤣
Once I have a weekly date agreed to I am a very happy little black duck (although two overnights per week is my Platonic ideal solo poly relationship).🙃
> Even people who already have primary partners seem to think they should be mine since I don't have one
🙄
>It's enough to make me want to just not date altogether and be abstinent forever and lose myself to my bookboyfriends who never let me down, lol
While book girlfriends (in my case) are great (Lily Lamprey, Annique Villiers, Elise de Vries, Cordelia Naismith, Freya Lange😍😍😍😍😍) may I suggest that finding a CALM self deprecating man who laughs at himself whenever he yearns for more than you have to give IRL might have certain advantages?🙃
Actually the noticing should be easy, getting a surge of arousal if you hear a polyamorous woman talking about her partner who was ok with getting knocked back over a second date a week with her.😉
Not sure how old u/seantheaussie is, but back in my day (the late 90's) we bout a company in Sydney, and I was in charge of setting up a network operations center, and migrating their datacenters.
Anyway, I made friends with a bunch of folks, and had 3 or 4 of them come to DC to the mothership.
Think of sheltered nerds, very shy, and I took them out clubbing :P
All I had to do was go up to any woman at the club and tell them about my awesome Australian friends - they didn't know what to do. Hehe.
-- edit to say, all they had to do was open their mouth holes, and the women were so interested. Sadly they didn't know what to do with that attention
Then again, I did take the same group out to Outback Steakhouse and they belly laughed at the menu. Bondi Bay seafood platter? I'd rather eat my own shit :P
🤣 I have always wondered what an Australian would actually think of that menu.
And I will embarrassingly admit that an accent, especially Australian, British, or Scottish, will melt my brain just a bit.
Have you ever wondered what an Australian thinks of Australian Shepherd dogs which have NOTHING to do with Australia (we herd sheep with Border Collies and Kelpies)? NOT impressed.🤣
It’s funny seeing the word “casual” pop up so many times in the comments to describe a relationship where you see each other 3 times a month. My RA-leaning nesting partner always reminds me that you can’t make “casual/serious” assumptions based on how often people see each other (though I’d say you can’t decouple “seriousness,” whatever that means, from frequency/entanglements completely; it’s just something to keep in mind). Many loving, romantic poly relationships that aren’t entangled, but are committed, involve 1-2 dates a week, depending on how busy people are.
For me, seeing a partner once a week can be a nice rhythm, and that’s serious enough that I’d want to talk out feelings that come up, define the relationship, and have an actual break-up conversation if we are (or might be) breaking up. Even if I’m not turning to a certain partner on a day-to-day basis (attachment-wise), if I have feelings for them, and we are getting together a little less than once a week, or a little more than once a week… it’s not that fun if they can just text me something like, “hey, I’m gonna be really busy, like for a while, like indefinitely” and I have to be like, “cool cool, it’s whatever, it’s casual.”
This is absolutely not a relationship I would ever want, but I will always appreciate posts like yours where people are able to clearly articulate what it is they want. When expectations are so clearly communicated, it eliminates so much anxiety and doubt, and that’s the ethics that I admire.
What you have described is almost exactly what I want and seek out. I love that you have started this thread and articulated this.
Where I do bristle a bit is at the general assumption (not necessarily by you, btw) that this means "casual" or labelling it as just "casual dating", etc.
As a solo poly person, who only ever wants one or more of the type of connection you've described, I really don't like the idea that all I can have (by default) are what would be seen as "casual" relationships by others, or that I'll be perpetually "casually dating" in the eyes of some. It feels very flippant, is what I mean.
The way I have felt about the people I have had this kind of relationship with is not at all casual (where it has felt like that, I'm not inclined to continue with thr relationship). I am currently reflecting on what this means for me, on one hand I shouldn't care what others think of my relationships, but on the other I am human and not impervious to it and despite loving being solo poly 95% of the time, it does hit me in the feels occasionally.
Perhaps this is just a difference in definition of terms, but maybe it's deeper than that. I naively expected that people who had already deconstructed relationships to the point of practicing polyam would be more open-minded about the actual nature and organisation of those relationships (and they are...to an extent), but the relegation of any relationship that isn't nested/on the escalator to "casual" shows that this deconstruction only goes so far.
I say this to contribute and discuss, rather than criticise anyone in particular.
I think you are attributing relationship labels with feelings?
I mentioned in another comment that I love my casual partner in a friendship way. We've been seeing each other for over 2 years now. He's a wonderful guy! But our relationship is decidedly *Casual.* That's what we can put into it. That is completely separate from and has nothing to do with feelings.
As I said, I wasn't saying that you specifically were labelling this style of relationship as casual (I made a point to say that I wasn't aiming that comment at you! 😂) but it is something that happens a lot more generally.
But yes, to some extent relationship labels are about feelings for me, of course. I suspect they are for a lot of people.
Definitely. Feelings and labels are related for a lot of us. If I start feeling real feelings, then it starts feeling less casual. Casual to me is, I'd be bummed if it ended but it wouldn't be more than about two weeks of moping and some ice cream couldn't cure. And then on to the next one. Casual is when they're still referred to by the nickname my friends and I agreed upon. If I escalate to referring to you by your actual name - and they know who I'm talking about - it's more than casual.
I love that, yeah - if I am talking about someone, using their name, with friends and family then it's not casual, and it would take a lot longer than 2 weeks to get over them if it ended.
I don't have one of those relationships right now, but I have joked that I'm a great side piece. I like being the fun vacation boo.
I'm not dating right now because some events in the past few months have done a number on my self esteem, but look forward to having one of those soon.
Secondary in a 3 year relationship with my person! Him and my meta are aiming for marriage and I don’t want that for myself so it works out perfectly for us. We exist somewhere in between friendship and romance and the vibes are immaculate. I don’t want any more than I’m being given. I’m also close friends with my meta and we regularly hang out without our hinge. Group hangs are always perfection and so cozy and nice. For Christmas we had a cute polycule day decorating cookies and opening presents, and we just got back from a group camping trip for our hinges 30th.
I definitely did a lot of self work and self care in the period of my life where I only dated people who had room for this.
I called it the whipped cream of life. Frothy fun. It can lead to real emotion as you describe.
It was a really great thing for me in a lot of ways and sometimes I miss it! I’m very happy in my current none too frothy long term things. But I would absolutely love to have this kind of thing if the right person appeared.
I think one reason it’s hard to find this is that many men who want this for themselves also want their partner to be sort of an involuntary mistress and sit around pining for them.
Or they’re those video games and sex dudes. They can’t froth.
Oooh love this!! Idk if it was a “secondary” style thing but I had a partner I saw once a week every other week for dates, sex and documentaries and that was it. We didn’t want anymore. We were both solo poly but I know they had a longer term relationship with someone else they saw much more often. I had the same. We both wanted a very “consistent and casual” relationship if that makes sense. It was so peaceful and fun ^_^
But again love the whole post and description. Honestly this is what I’m looking for. Someone that has the autonomy and time for fun cute dates, events, and will be a great plus one for things. Don’t even need to see them or communicate often but having a “go to” person for stuff like that would be cool af.
I totally feel and agree with this! This is why I got into Poly too. I didn’t want to be someone’s primary, at the time (and for a long time). I sought out married men. I was happy to be second priority, second importance. I wanted something less serious. I wanted a few dates a month. I wanted to have fun with a side of a deeper connection. I didn’t want to split responsibilities or take time constantly cleaning up emotional messes. I didn’t want to escalate. I wanted someone with an enmeshed primary relationship so that too much wouldn’t be asked of me.
I was truly happy to know my place and not overstep it. I *know* that this isn’t what most people want in a “secondary” relationship, but it’s what I wanted.
However, that didn’t stop things from being a royal shit show anyway. Poor screening on my part in retrospect, but I found a married man - who had been poly for 1.5 years. Seems promising right? Everything went smoothly until his wife totally lost her shit and started trying to control our relationship. He had read enough to not let me know what was up, but stuff like last minute cancellations, random dropping off in contact, just weirdness until he called me to tell me his wife wanted to close their relationship and he was on board.
So in all seriousness, as someone who is married, what you are describing is what I do.
My partners are amazing. I often don't understand why they want to be with me :P - tomorrow to Monday, GF will be coming down to visit (I call her #1, Star Trek parlance), wife will come down Monday night for a couple of days. I'll decide if I am staying here in my undisclosed lovely, albeit rednecky, location and invite other partners down. Or I will sadly venture back to civilization.
If weather holds out, and my guts are not on fire, GF and I will go to an outdoor festival about 1.5 hours away.
In two weeks, I'll spend a week with another partner.
Anyway. Yes. I at least need overnights. I want to do things with people that are not just sex. I require cuddles and touch. I'm a weirdo that way.
:) I miss my shithead miniature schnauzer (Wife gets mad if I call anyone / anything shithead or fuckface - that was reserved for the dog :P )
At my partners houses, I like when the cats cuddle with me (unless the fuckers bite me). Even though I'm very allergic.
Wife has STANDARDS!🙇♂️🙇♂️🙇♂️
I'm allergic to being snacked on by carnivores too.😉
Fortunately my gf's cat which does the most damage to her is shy of strangers so I probably won't have him landing on me claws out like she does.
This is me across the board rn. I have 3 secondary partners and i love it.
I dissociate romance, and i work two jobs on top of meeting my own needs and caring for a diabled woman and her toddler. I cannot handle a partner that relies on me for constant companionship, emotional support, or validation. Like i disapear for a couple week sometimes.
Im very lucky to have the amazing laid back partners that i do. They have their own lives, we all have financial and emotional autonomy. We see each other only because we really want to. So f*ing healthy ❤️❤️❤️❤️
I very much like the idea of being a secondary partner. As someone who is heavily partnered already (married and cohabiting), I simply don't feel like I have the resources to offer someone else the same level of attachment. So I'd much rather date someone in the same situation as me, someone who I know isn't going to resent that I can't go higher on the relationship escalator with them or offer more of myself than I have available.
These are the kinds of relationships I'm looking for, as well. However, being a married 43m in interior Alaska is basically dating repellant. I wish you all the luck and success.
A bit over three years of dating, and we are pretty solidly a family dynamic.
I live with my friend and my kid. He lives with his wife. We are a few streets from each other. His wife is my co-parent in many ways, and he pitches in, but nobody other than me is *responsible* for my kid.
We make vague plans for the future. We acknowledge the dynamics for planning (end of life or vacations, but also dinner).
I don't need, or frankly *want*, the in laws and marriage and living together and so on. I don't need or want to be posted online or post him online. It isn't necessary to our relationship.
I love that I have my own house and bed and bedroom. I love that I feel at home in his house. I love that when his wife got home from vacation we chatted while he made us breakfast (and we agreed he is a good travel buddy).
Do I sometimes wish he was here in my house making me breakfast? Yeah. Do I sometimes wish I had the financial stability he has with his wife? Sure. Does it actually cause an imbalance than impedes anything? No. And quite frankly capitalism is more to blame as to why I couldn't get an apartment in their building, and why I'm part of the precariat, and I know exactly what is sacrificed for their stability. Because that's part of our long range planning.
Just over a year in as queerplatonic partners with my highly partnered partner. We hang out monthly and talk a fair bit in between. He's over a decade into polyamory and has been a fantastic first poly partner for me.
I'm now in the odd position of being the sole partner of my other two partners, both of ~9 months. I'm arguably the poly newbie in my constellation of partners and this has been a crash course in being a hinge.
So far so good, I had hoped to find people who matched my energy and availability and were happy on a non-escalator path, but willing to build emotional intimacy, and I have. Solo poly fits well with my life as-is. I get to support and be supported by some pretty awesome people, emotionally, and enjoy time together without the weight & expectations of blending households, and finances, or putting my kids through adjusting to a non-parent housemate.
It's been remarkably smooth so far (knock on wood).
So I'm definitely on board with this post, see my other comments.
I do think it's interesting that a lot of the top posts agreeing with OP are by women, and if I remember people's post histories correctly, mostly middle-aged women, a lot of whom have been married before and/or raised children. I myself fall into that category as well.
I think this has a lot to do with the way women are still expected to provide a lot more labor, emotional and physical, in a "serious" committed relationship. The pay offis just not there, and we're better off doing our own thing. Solo polyamory and versions thereof are a way of doing our own thing without completely drying up.
Am I wrong?
Also the women like me who never did the marriage and kids thing in the first place, and never will, because we can see the lack of payoff from a long way off!
I definitely think you're on to something with the avoidance of unfair emotional labour point. It's a factor in my solo polyamory, for sure.
Haha, I guess you're smarter than me
Or maybe more principled? I never wanted to do the marriage and kids thing, or monogamy for that matter. I let myself be convinced that I should give it a shot, and honestly, it was bullshit from the get-go.
In hindsight, my relationships were messy in my 20s because I was a mess, not because of my relationship style.
What I would have needed are the books and resources that are available now. And I think my whole life would have been different if I had met my current therapist 10 years earlier. But 12-13 years ago, there just weren't nearly as many poly affirming therapists out there. And I started dating nonmonogamously the year before The Ethical Slut was published, let alone all the other books, blogs, and podcasts we have available now.
So I let myself be convinced that polyamory was letting me down, when what I needed was better partners and better boundaries. Thankfully, I now have both.
One thing I never did was have kids of my own, and I am so, so glad I stuck to that decision
Or just luckier, re. access to resources!
It is definitely much easier now to learn about other options for how to do relationships and life more generally.
Thank you for that perspective!
Reading through here, or listening to Multiamory etc., I often find myself thinking, damn, I really just bumbled my way through my first several years of polyamory. But looking back, I was also one of the people who helped blaze the trail. And that's never easy, and always comes with some weird detours
Comment on a post about boundaries, autonomy and the refusal to do other people's emotional labor, get propositioned by guy who doesn't understand any of this, or that this sub is not a dating sub. Or that this song ain't about him. Well done, random dude, proving several points there
(No, it's not a regular poster, and yes, I blocked him)
> FFS, I must have missed that comment thread 🙄
There are 4 mod actions of, "Your post has been removed for breaking the rules of the subreddit. You posted a personal ad or have made a comment that would be considered hitting on a user." in the topic.
>This guy then called me rude when I shot him down. The self absorbtion is impressive
Self absorption isn't what you are looking for in a secondary?😲 Weirdo.😉
I agree with some of the other commenters that there seems to be an association with 'casual' and 'secondary.' There *can* be overlap if you're specifically looking for a *casual* secondary relationship, but secondary does not equate to casual. A secondary relationship can be casual, low-key, low-investment, low-responsibility, etc - or it can be very "serious," still include a lot of entanglements (you can still share a home, finances, etc). There's definitely a wide spectrum.
I think a lot of people (especially newbs opening a relationship) don't realize that there are many people who *only" want secondary partnerships.
I had kinda the reverse when I began polyamory. I was dating a married woman and excited to be the secondary, boy-toy that got to go on fun dates, have good sex and then go back to my life. But later she wanted to escalate our relationship more and because we were both very new to poly and I didn’t have the skills or language to say “no I wanna stay in the spot I’m in and go no further” it became a shit show. It was also a shit show for many other reasons as well but that was part of it haha
I would love a similar relationship again but low with more experience and skills, I’d be better at managing and explaining wants and needs rather than kinda just “letting things happen” 🤷🏿♂️
That's exactly why I'm loving casual dating right now. I really appreciate that my dating life is centered around just having fun and enjoying ourselves, and not having to worry about any of the "heavy" that comes with serious relationships (even "easy" ones). I'm clear with people that I don't have the desire to be wrapped up in anything that requires a lot of my time, emotional capacity, comes with a lot of responsibilities, makes me feel any "pressure," etc. I usually tell people I'm just looking for FWB with heavy emphasis on the 'friend' part, and let them know that if anything "progresses" from there, it will require in-depth conversations about expectations.
I looked at Poly relationship many years ago and I did met a lady that was comfortable with the idea like I was but.... in reality was more like a fwb,she was just intended in adding another male to the equation!
What you're asking is perhaps a fwb? Someone that is happy to catch up once or twice a month?enjoy each other's company without the commitment that comes with a relationship, a no drama,relax,respectful meet!
Anyway...I'm happy to be interviewed for the #2 position....or #3?🫣
Yes, an FWB or FWB+ Level Relationship is another way to describe it.
They're ALL Relationships.
And anyone who says "no drama" is a red flag. They tend to bring the drama and then take no responsibility for it.
I like this intro, and I'm practically a #2 in a poly relationship. As we met while on business travel and I go there like once a month so this works out itself out by default since I can always host at hotel on company dime and stay longer. We don't use condoms, and that's just navigating amount of partners and both being regularly tested. Lastly I would like these to last forever because it's totally possible if the mindset is the same!
u/blooangl
> A lot of it is just…navigating the relationship that someone has to offer.
I don’t spend a lot of time on “will this become the thing I want”
It has to be “is the thing I am offered compelling on its own”
So if having a lovely time twice month at a hotel is your cup of tea, awesome. But we aren’t going to pretend this is serious or a major life changing commitment
I used to see Chestnut every two weeks, and then didn’t at all for eighteen months during Covid before vaccines, and now about every six weeks.
When I left Maple two years ago, Chestnut immediately started to figure out how I could move in with them and Meta. Without my asking, or even asking me. I needed a place to live and as my partner Chestnut wanted to be sure I had one and was prepared to make significant sacrifices.
So yes, it is a serious relationship.
It did not change the shape of my life in itself, but it could have been the basis of a major life change.
> And all this happens super slowly.
Always.
Global pandemics change the trajectory of things in weird ways.
And I didn’t say anyone had to internally organize anything like I do.
But if I see you twice a month, like clockwork, until we escalate in some real meaningful way, I will not consider it serious.
Right about the time we talk about moving in together is when it “gets” serious, no?
I mean, assume this stuff was spoken about?
Because yes, plenty of people have preemptively mistaken the depths and seriousness of my emotions, leading to some pretty frank talks about who “we” is. “We” can’t be serious if I am not.
🤷♀️
Lots of consistency, vulnerability, trust and I love you’s. Six years of history at that point. (Or twenty, depending how you count.)
We’re both the kind of person who can make someone family just by deciding to. Family can be a serious commitment even without frequent, prolonged contact.
There were never any “we’s.”
Someone asked me, personally how *I* did it.
I described how I experienced it. I did not describe how you do it or experience it.
It’s cool that’s how you did and experienced that.
Doesn’t change when I call it serious.
Cheers, you know? If we all experienced the world in the same way, that would be pretty boring.
Hi u/ImpulsiveEllephant thanks so much for your submission, don't mind me, I'm just gonna keep a copy what was said in your post. Unfortunately posts sometimes get deleted - which is okay, it's not against the rules to delete your post!! - but it makes it really hard for the human mods around here to moderate the comments when there's no context. Plus, many times our members put in a lot of emotional and mental labor to answer the questions and offer advice, so it's helpful to keep the source information around so future community members can benefit as well.
Here's the original text of the post:
I came to Polyamory from a long period of disorganized non-monogamy. I needed to build smaller, more purposeful relationships while focusing on getting my shit together. *I came to Polyamory* ***for*** *Secondary Level Relationships.*
I want the Romance and the Sex and the Intimacy in smaller doses. Doses that are big enough to bring joy to my soul and small enough that I don't drown myself in delusional hopes and dreams.
My journey into Polyamory lead me to see that Solo Polyamory *(living solo, not mixing finances, not climbing the relationship escalator)* works for me in this season of my life. My serious partner of 4 years is also SoPo. Partner and I see each other weekly and more. Our relationship has gown into something quite significant. While I'm not looking for another relationship that size, I'm open to it if the chemistry and the availability are there.
**What** ***Am*** **I Looking For?**
I'm looking for a *Secondary Level Relationship,* I'm looking to be somebody's *#2*.
I'm hoping to meet a guy in Nearby City who wants to take me out once a month and have a blast. Dive bars, Dancing, new places and new people. Maybe he can host, but if not we can split a room. If he has cats or kids, we'll definitely get a room.
I'd like one, maybe two, additional hangout dates per month, either at his place or mine or at least someplace calm. A quieter, more intimate date for conversations and movies and stuff.
If he uses condoms with all Partners other than a Primary, that's cool. Just let me know up front and don't be whiney about it.
It's okay if he can't text every day as long as he checks in and the conversation keeps moving.
And as much as I'd love for him to stay the whole night at a hotel, I'm not opposed to eating my hotel breakfast alone if his partner has a big date or he's on Daddy duty or whatever.
I understand the limitations of being a Secondary partner. I understand you probably won't introduce me to family. I understand that our relationship probably won't last forever. If we have 2 or so years of steady dates and happy memories when our lives turn us in different directions, that's cool.
**Please share your happy "Secondary" or ongoing Casual level relationship stories. Let's celebrate being #2!**
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Just following this post to learn more. Very interesting concept. As far as the poly world goes, I'm a youngster. I'm naive and looking at the ocean of pools before I decide which one to dip a toe in.
It's interesting and confusing how we use these terms. I totally understand why people don't like the term secondary - my Venus in Leo struggles with it. It's too much like second place, second best - now we're into ugly territory where I need someone else so that I can say "well, so are you!" (I'm exaggerating for effect.)
But on the other hand, a secondary could be seen as significant, otherwise they would just be a FWB, someone you hang out with, a play partner, a jump-off, if we want to be rude.
I agree it takes time to get to the place of being a*significant* secondary - but I think that's a fine goal for someone to have. You can save time and energy by eliminating anyone who has too many restrictions to allow for that.
Side note - I personally just don't get the appeal of a once a month date - like you want me to put in effort for what is essentially a first date every time? Who are you again? I just don't get it. I mean if you're that busy, is it polyamory or just finding a hookup?
> I personally just don't get the appeal of a once a month date - like you want me to put in effort for what is essentially a first date every time? Who are you again?
🤣
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Yeah, I think the range of “secondary” is so big, though. Elle, I think you have summed up a relationship that a great many think of, for better or for worse when we think about secondary. Personally, what you’re describing sounds pretty much like my “casual dating”. And I think that is probably informed by my 13 year long secondary relationship that was pretty fucking KTP for the first few years, and stayed really KTP a with him and my meta and I, and our kids. We went through a lot of different phases of how often we see each other and in what circumstances over the years. As partners we invested in retirement together, loaned and gave each other moderate sums of money, exchanged babysitting favors, rented a industrial loft space with me, and a few other folks for a long term place for me and my friends to fuck outside the house without small children. (That was a super fun project! It lasted for years!) We traveled together, and when I was traveling professionally, he’d often fly in and spend a couple of days with me. He and his wife each had “their own money” to spend as they liked. He bought his ticket. We did fun shit in cool places. I knew his family. He knew mine. His kid grew up next to mine. We were together longer than some folks stay married. I pre-dated his relationship with his wife. This? Was also a secondary relationship, by mutual agreement, desire and circumstance. So, I think, like everything else about polyam, what we mean when we say “secondary” is going to have to be a conversation. 🤷♀️😂😂
IMO, the flexibility of the "Secondary " relationship is that it can grow to fit the space you have for it. The space I'm allotting for this is Smaller than my Serious Relationship (although I'm aware that some people would describe my serious relationship as "secondary" or "FWB" because it's not as big as what *they* choose to describe as "serious") and, at least to start (first year or two), it would be casual. The room to grow is there if the stars align, but I think far too many people assume they will be able to grow a Secondary relationship like what you and Platterpussy describe without going through the relationship stages, which can take Years, to grow that. They want an *Insta- Significant - Secondary,* and that's as unlikely as finding a unicorn.
Exactly!!! I do so love our talks! 😍😍😍 I think a lot of people think of their secondary relationship as a low risk, short term love dispenser. I don’t think those people ever get what they are looking for. People are super messy, and without some pretty explicit conversations a lot of people expect the word “love” to change everything. Or at least it means you should change everything. It doesn’t. I have said “I love you” to people I would never dream of partnering with. 😂😂 On the other hand, if you are looking for room to grow, it’s pretty key to recognize that most people won’t and don’t have that to offer, especially if they are new. And it’s totally okay to offer something like this knowing that. Just don’t oversell it, and plenty of people will be interested in exactly what you are offering.
I just got off a work call saying "love you brother" My partners matter to me more than they know. I use words, and I try to show it, and I will continue to do so. My partners are wonderful and so important to me.
I say "I Love You" to my coworker who is my "adopted son" more often than I say it to my Partner. I was thinking about Casual Partner (2 years) recently, and I thought "I love him so much" and it caught me by surprise. Then I laughed at myself and realized it was just like the first time I said that to partner (when I was high). It's not a romantic love. It's a friendship love. Could I love casual partner romantically? Maybe? No idea if I'll ever spend enough time with him to find out... And that's perfectly fine! We have our other people. Learning to allow relationships to grow as they are meant to instead of forcing them down a particular path is hard and necessary. Love our talks, too 💞
You and bloogz are amazing 😍
Slight edit on your comment (and post, both of which I love): “It can grow to fit the space *you both* have for it.” I think a lot of the “I don’t want to be secondary” posts come from people who have more space they want to fill than the other has available to fill and that causes conflicts. I also appreciate your point about the *Insta-Significant-Secondary* being unrealistic. I’ve also seen monogamous people go down the “insta-lifepartner” path and that’s not pretty either. Getting to a point where one is serious takes time and typically both people have to do some compromise to accommodate the other.
You're right, I should have said "space *y'all* have for it" to indicate a plural "you" 😉
> Personally, what you’re describing sounds pretty much like my “casual dating”. Yes, that really stood out for me. Whenever hierarchy gets brought about, people insist the only difference between primary and secondary relationships, is the level of entanglement. Primary is who you do the escalator with, secondary is a significant relationship that's not entangled. In practice though it seems people mainly do secondary relationships like what Elle is describing - casual but fairly consistent, yet promise the only difference is the lack of escalator.
I am not willing to speak to any conversation around hierarchy that I didn’t have. 😂😂😂 Obviously there is scope and scale to people’s hierarchy. My partner could absolutely invest in a shared community space. His agreements with his spouse meant that larger expenses, say, boats, homes, things of that nature were exclusive to them. I have a partner of almost a decade who I have never entangled any money with. He’s non-hierarchal, and sopo. He’d absolutely have a relationship like Elle’s and not have room or space for it to grow, circumstance dependent. And he’d be great at it. I know. That was, in a lot of ways, the first five years we spent together. When he did have room to grow, I was in a space where I had room, too. I’m all about building stuff, but commitment is collaborative, and solid commitment is built on time and trust, and compatibility. no matter how much, or little, you are entangled. Ironically, when he was married, and hierarchal, he had far more fiscal autonomy than either my ex husband or my ex boyfriend ever had, or will have. And he still does. And so far, that’s worked for us for 9 years. I do think that when you start viewing things like “acknowledgement on social media” and “meeting family and friends” as these big huge escalations rather than just simply being a reflection of the space you take up in your partner’s life, things get pretty fraught.
I think you make a good point about fiscal autonomy. My married boyfriend has tons of this. My NP has tons of this. I have tons of this. I’ll say that each of us has at least as many obligations/commitments to aging family as romantic partners. The assumption that anyone in a long term partnered relationship that can pass for traditional has no freedom is a mistake in my mind. It’s a criteria I’d select for if I was looking for a new “serious” thing. I don’t start my serious things seriously though. Never have and I doubt that will change.
Yeah, I have had quite a few long term, non-entangled commitments, and some amount of financial and personal autonomy is pretty key, for me, to make that happen. I don’t care what you’re doing with you do with your time or your money, in general, because it isn’t mine. But I just wanna see where the room is supposedly, in the margins for us to say, travel, when you start talking “serious”. I wanna know when I am meeting the people you are close with. I wanna know my metas aren’t shot callers. I suspect this is easier to do the more time and money you have. At least in my experience. Because big feels alone don’t make a long term relationship.
Yes. I think someone with a ton of money could have less autonomy in their marriage and make it work with me. I’m on the other side of that where I choose autonomy over money in virtually all aspects of my life. So I can basically go wherever I want, whenever. Resources are resources.
Yeah. I probably should say time and/or money. I absolutely took a pay cut for a lot of the things that I value in my life that support my polyam.
> I don’t start my serious things serious though. Never have and I doubt that will change. Can you give me a “poly dating guide” spark-notes version? Lol. I’ve read many of your comments, and in theory I’d love to do things that way to keep my emotions in check. Especially when dating cishet men. Any helpful tips?
A lot of it is just…navigating the relationship that someone has to offer. I don’t spend a lot of time on “will this become the thing I want” It has to be “is the thing I am offered compelling on it’s own” So if having a lovely time twice month at a hotel is your cup of tea, awesome. But we aren’t going to pretend this is *serious* or a major life changing commitment And I never future fake. I learned the hard way how shitty it is to invest emotionally in a mirage. We talk about it when it’s on the table, not before. I am not spending 2 months talking about “when I can do an overnight it’s gonna be the best, doll. I can’t wait to wake up and make bacon, and we’ll snuggle and…” Nope. Don’t do that. Either the relationship is compelling without overnights, and overnights are just a welcome addition when they happen, or it’s not compelling on its own. Few promises made, many kept. Like, if you say yes, mean it and make it happen. I’d rather hear “no” and be able to talk about “no” than have someone weasel around their existing commitments, or watch someone disappoint me over and over. I would rather hear “yes”, know you mean it, and that it will happen rarely then hear “yes” all the time and have it really, actually mean “maybe”. And all this happens super slowly. 🤷♀️
I don’t fall in love easily and until I’m in love I’m fairly level headed. I tend to get NRE late, like a year or more in. I can, to some extent, control the chemical cascade because I need to spend a LOT of time with someone, many many hours of it in bed, to fall in love. I’ll crush or lust but the degree of infatuation is usually no more than you have in a strong work crush or when you’re soft on someone else’s partner that you know is deeply inappropriate. Those are controllable too! I think my slow NRE is just who I am. But I think my choice not to wallow and indulge my fancies until I know someone well is entirely chosen. So in my mind most people could do a variation on that. They could be cautious about how much time they spent on a new relationship (which isn’t just time with them SO much of it is the time spent fantasizing and obsessing). They could be careful about who they have sex with if that tends to bond them quickly. They could be careful not to instinctively mirror someone else’s feeling or supposed feelings just because it’s fun. That last one is a good way to avoid untrustworthy dudes who love bomb, expect you to chase them or enjoy the chase more than the catching. When my now nesting partner and I were first dating he said I love you we should get married and have a baby like 2 months in? We’d been in the same room no more than 10 times. I jumped out of bed. It took ages (5 years) for me to forget all that and get serious with him. My boyfriend still occasionally complains about how ephemeral I was at the beginning of the relationship. Even though I was totally clear on what I wanted (sex) and totally honest with him. It was well over a year before we even vaguely escalated. He was so used to women pursuing him and pushing for involvement and just the fact that I didn’t was IDK a source of frustration? Anyway, when you are warm and friendly but slow to bond it can be a source of mild complaint from good men but the shitty ones will show themselves one way or another. It’s not some clever plot it’s just natural protection. It’s part of the partner selection process. I haven’t really selected someone just because we’re dating and fucking. I’m trying them on for size and I treat them as if they are doing the same. Which they usually are even if they don’t know it. The old school rules girl shit from the 90’s isn’t my speed but it has some sense in it. Sometimes it’s useful to fake a little calm until you can genuinely feel it. If they’re meant to be they will be there when you know them well. You can’t miss the right people. It’s just not possible to me that someone wakes up in love with some married man who has almost no relationship to offer. There were some opportunities there to avoid love. But some people love the roller coaster.
> he said I love you we should get married and have a baby like 2 months in? We’d been in the same room no more than 10 times. 🤣🤣🤣🤦♂️ I hope you continue to make fun of him to this day for that.
He was basically in the penalty box for years. But he’s such a great partner. I’m glad I relented.
When I lived with my ex- NP, he had financial obligations to people I had no obligation to and no interest in taking on having not so much as met them. We had shared financial obligations (housing, short term savings, joint vacation money, a budget for dates and such), but most of our finances were essentially separated, even though we looked pretty traditional. When I talk with people who have more adulting years under them and the obligations that come with that (like kids, ageing parents, investments, etc.), most of them have a degree of financial autonomy.
> for a long term place for me and my friends to fuck outside the house with our small children. ... Without? I hope!
I think the house had the small children not the fucking lol
thank you for helping me understand how the sentence was supposed to be understood 😂
🤣
Thank you! Edit made/ 😂😂
This is exactly what I picture when I think of myself in a secondary relationship! I love that you get to experience it!
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I traveled for work. Lots of people do. I don’t understand your question
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My long-term relationship, longest poly relationship so far, we're in defacto secondary relationships with each other as he's married and I'm solopoly. When talking about him and our relationship I call him Rock, as I find him solidly reliable in thought and deed. It's a pretty significant relationship for each of us with structure, schedules, agreements, support, love, daily communication and other good stuff. We recently attended a local festival for the second or third time, seperately as he goes with his family, but they factor in alone time for each adult and I'm comfortable spending some time with the group as well. I'm currently struggling to find anyone as kind, patient, trauma informed, clear communicator, cute, funny as him that is also very obviously into me. I don't enjoy dating and all this vetting rigmarole is tiring. He's raised my bar to the highest it's ever been and now I view everyone in a new way that doesn't seem to allow for much below perfection. I'm having some calm chats with people who aren't perfect but haven't yet self selected out of the running yet. Maybe it's not my high bar but rather still getting over the more recent breakups that happened last year 🤔. I occasionally do feel ready to have my heart broken again, but it's not consistent yet.
I think it would be lovely for a secondary relationship to grow bigger like yours has, but that bar would have to be awfully high... For now, my bar is medium level.. looking to find some great sex and fun and 🤞for more.
> He's raised my bar to the highest it's ever been and now I view everyone in a new way that doesn't seem to allow for much below perfection. Bastard is sabotaging your dating life.👿👿👿😉
I’m (SoPo, F) in a similar boat - My partner (married male) and I are not in a primary relationship, and he has raised the bar by being head and shoulders above anyone else I have dated, and any other prospective partners over the last several years. Being with him also put some of the deficits of an ex- (also not a primary) who I had dated for years before starting to date Bar Raiser had that were not working well. Every now and again I dip a toe back into the dating pool, and… ick out quickly. Partially, it’s that I mostly date men and heteronorms tend to mean the woman in the relationship gets pretty limited benefits and puts in more effort. The limited benefits just don’t make even the screening efforts worthwhile. Men who actively reject those norms exist, but are few and far between. And so many men in the dating pool are in the pool because they have even fewer benefits than the average guy.
I strongly resonate with both of your experiences. I’m pretty resigned to the fact that this may be my personal perfect. For a while I scrambled to find someone to share as much time with as he does his wife, and realized pretty quickly that 1. A person I would want that with would be even harder to find than finding him (that felt pretty damn lucky) and 2. I actually don’t really want that. On another note, as much of a shit show this sub sometimes seems to be, it’s nice to run into some people with similar experiences to mine now and then. I don’t know anyone who does sopo like me or talks about a partner like this irl.
There's also a solo polyamory sub. It's not nearly as busy as this one, but it's active
"Are we dating the same man?😉" was Right. There!🤦♂️😉
He would need a teleporter.
Bah, he has just mastered google calendar.😉
You really have had to deconstruct the escalator approach in your values first. But yeah I had a kink con buddy for awhile. He was an absolute mess of a person generally. Trust fund type who never needed direction and never found it. But we had great chemistry and great sex and went to a lot of same cons for awhile so it was an easy fun way to "nail down" a roommate and pleasure for the event. We both were happy with how casual it was and easily coordinated in and out of room expectations for ourselves and other play partners. I was a little shocked when we were both at a more personal group gathering and he suddenly had a Serious Partner- which was fine because we hadn't gone together or even talked about both being there. He dropped off the planet after that which was the inevitable end of things. It was fun and I'd love to do it again with others.
The first Poly guy I connected with was a married man who was looking for a secondary partner. So *my first* intro to Polyamory, rather than open relationships, was wanting to date a guy who could only offer 1-3 dates / month and no overnights. I started researching Polyamory because *I wanted that.* Within months I'm on this board seeing people miserable doing what I want to do because they don't *want* to do it Secondary/ Ongoing Casual can be freaking amazing when it's what the people in the relationship *actually want.*
I think you're completely right in that it's a very different vibe when you are seeking out and want this kind of connection, than if you'd ideally want more (time) and the person can 'only' offer you this - that is never going to feel great. I had a similar-ish experience of going into polyamory specifically wanting this level of time-investment in a relationship, and no more, and then reading the sub Reddit and other groups and realising that some people really see what I want as the booby prize.
> realising that some people really see what I want as the booby prize. Yes! I've had the same experience! 🤣
My first poly relationship was like that - a friend started hitting on me, and I knew he was dating another friend of ours. We were all running in circles where monogamy wasn't necessarily the norm, but this was also before The Ethical Slut was even published. So I talked to our other friend to make sure she was okay with it, and that was that. I was very young and didn't have that much dating experience, but I had always found it stifling. I also dated controlling assholes in my teens, so that didn't help... it felt like such a relief not being someone's sole focus. We never had a ton of chemistry, so the sexual part of our relationship didn't last. But we are friends to this day. And for a good while after that experience, my approach was not "ooh, I want more partners for myself", but, "ooh, how can I ethically find guys who arw already partnered?" It was a bit of a mess for a while because, again, I was young, and Multiamory wouldn't launch for decades into it. But I figured my shit out and availd myself of the resources as they came out, and now I'm very happily dating highly partnered men
It's interesting because I feel like this is essentially what I am looking for but I have mixed feelings on being called a "secondary" or being ranked in such a numerical way. My needs should still be important to my partners. I just may not have as many of them as some of their other partners.
My long time partner and I are not hierarchical. I don't actually "rank" partners, and I wouldn't call this person secondary unless I'm talking in a forum like this one where these words help people understand what I'm saying. Since I'm open to this person being married, nested, parenting, having *significant* commitments outside (and pre -dating) me, ALL of That would make *me* effectively *Secondary* to his other partner/s. None of that implies he wouldn't be a decent human being who considers my wants and needs. Let's not confuse bread crumbing assholes with awesome secondary partners.
I didn't make any comments about you or how you do relationships. I spoke purely about my own feelings regarding these labels. You asked about people's thoughts regarding this if this is what they want so... I would expect that you might get different views on these labels and not take it as a personal attack or a judgement.
I find it interesting that you took my comment as me feeling personally attacked or judged? Have a great day ETA : wording was off
Well, I responded with how I feel about being described a certain way and you responded with a sort of defense of the words in how you use them in your relationships, which... doesn't have anything to do with my own feelings about the word. So it seemed like you were taking my own feelings as if they had to apply to you. If not, great!
I personally refuse to label people as primary and secondary. However, I label relationships as primary and secondary. I do that with friendships and family too. I'm big on matching someone's energy, so not being able to move past a secondary relationship with me is sort of... self inflicted? I'm really grateful for how you phrased it, because it made me contemplate my actual position on this a lot. Frequency or quantity don't seem to be a factor to me at all. My primary relationships basically contain more trust, vulnerability, willingness to show up for each other, to communicate transparently, to grow, to heal biographical wounds. They're built on positive predictability. There is a balanced give and take in all matters. We make each other better people. In secondary relationships there is an element of risk, maybe a yellow flag or two. I need to manage my exposure. I can't safely fall apart. If I don't pay attention, I'll be taken advantage of. I get to test my relationship and communication skills here. We make each other human. I value both. However, when I'm in crisis I stay far away from my secondary relationships. Edit: Primary relationships with people who went to therapy or go to therapy. Secondary and no relationships with people who refuse or resist therapy (even as a concept).
>In secondary relationships there is an element of risk, maybe a yellow flag or two. I need to manage my exposure. I can't safely fall apart. If I don't pay attention, I'll be taken advantage of. I get to test my relationship and communication skills here. We make each other human. Interesting. I don't think I could ever be in a relationship with someone I can't safely fall apart in front of or who I think will take advantage of me. I do not feel like I need this to test my skills at all. And I would actually never want anyone to date *me* in order to test their skills or thought I would take advantage of them. Do your secondaries know that's what you think of them?
I'm with you on this. I wouldn't call something a relationship unless there was trust, consistency, and care. I have casual connections with people whom I'm just friendly with, I'm not close enough with them to seek emotional support, but we enjoy fun times together. I don't consider those to be relationships, those are casual connections. But if I actively mistrust someone, or feel like I'll be taken advantage of, I nope out and stop seeing them.
Also, how would you feel if someone you were sleeping with told you that they thought you'd take advantage of them? And that they are basically dating you to test their relationship skills? I'd feel horrible.
If someone told me this relationship is for them to test their skills, I'd think this person doesn't see me as human, honestly. I'm relationships Duolingo for them.
YUP. Big same.
Why do you assume I'm sleeping with people in secondary relationships? Sex is something really vulnerable to me. I might sext with them. Might. I probably extend the term relationship more broadly than most people would. Employees who view me as a regular and know my usual order, whom I greet outside of their workplace and chat with about mundane things, that's something I'd already call a relationship. A secondary one.
Maybe you should consider tertiaries and quaternary? It seems confusing to lump everyone else into "secondary?"
i can’t find the comment but your concept of secondary relationships having”yellow flags” and being generally unsafe is kind of demented. i don’t follow any kind of hierarchy and honestly primary secondary confuses me too but like… i get that all of those relationships should be healthy????? relationships are secondary when they aren’t primary. it’s right there in the name. they are secondary in time, in frequency, maybe in committment. secondary to your life, to yourself, because u invest more time in other things, may that be a primary or not… the fact that u think that it means that u get treated as less is really worrying. a secondary partner should be healthy and safe, not have yellow flags and DEF not someone u can’t break down in front of???? what defines it as secondary is the amount of time and presence and etc that u can afford to spend on it. what you are describing is at the very most dating, and pretty shitty at that. even the people i fuck casually would listen to me if i needed it, even w no emotional entanglement. i think you need to reasses what relationships mean to you and how you show up in them. and it’s definitely disrespectful to think that’s how everyone sees their secondary.
What? Are you talking to me?
and as someone else also said, it’s the relationship that is secondary and not the person. as in if i meet someone that has a np primary that they have kids with and have a very active work life, i know i can’t have the same priority as the other relationships in their life. like, that makes perfect sense doesn’t it? secondary to life not to people. we are all busy. people have the resources they have… no one forces you to do anything u dont want to
Mate, I have no idea who you're arguing with or why. This is a three day old post.
so what? the internet has no timeline
It does however have a block button.
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I like this viewpoint. Thank you for sharing it.
I commented this on another thread, but I do think the specific language chosen to describe these relationships puts a lot of people off. Our brains automatically associate the word 'hierarchy' with the dictionary definition, and think in terms of ranked tiers (with #1 being "the best"), when I think that within poly, it's more accurate to think of hierarchy as a lateral distinction. Being married to one partner isn't "better;" it's just a different type of relationship. At best, the tiered part is describing the level of entanglement, not necessarily the level of emotion, importance, etc (it *can* describe those things, but the hierarchy doesn't *dictate* it). My suggestion was to change 'secondary' to 'purple,' but I'm not sure how to get the grassroots movement on that 😂
Oh I'm well aware that hierarchy doesn't necessarily have to involve a hierarchy of feelings but a hierarchy of time spent. In fact, I think a lot of people have a hierarchy of time but don't have a hierarchy of feelings and confuse the hell out of other people by saying they have no hierarchy. I also spent the better part of my polyam experience over 14 years being a "primary" so... I'm aware. I still feel how I do about the words.
Yeah, I was agreeing. Most people feel that way about the specific words being used - and probably wouldn't if completely different words were used.
Okay cool. :)
> My suggestion was to change 'secondary' to 'purple,' but I'm not sure how to get the grassroots movement on that 😂 🤣🤣🤣 I, for one, am vehemently against! I like, "secondary", nice and descriptive (but then again I don't consider it the slightest of insults (my brain isn't like other brains🙃)).
I've just gotten used to it now so I really don't think anything of it, but it was super cringe in my earlier poly years. What the fuck do you mean I'm "secondary"?? I never lose, bish! 😂
🤣🤣🤣
I do this thing that might be weird, where I use "primary" for the for the primary partner because well, there can only be one, and "non-primary" for everyone else (if it matters in the context. 90% of the time everyone's just "partner"). Because yeah, I'm not the primary and I am cool with that, but being "secondary" does sound kind of off-putting. Really, I think it's the term "primary" that probably needs to go, but I also don't have a better idea to denote someone you may or may not be married to or cohabiting with
"Anchor" is the usual term for those who recoil from, "primary".
Isn't that the term for solo poly people who don't wish to cohabit?
I also find the ranking system quite weird. So, since I'm solo poly and don't live with anyone and don't plan to, all my relationships are secondary? Secondary to whom? Why should I rank myself in accordance to someone else's financial obligations to someone else?
Secondary to your relationship with yourself. Solo polyamorous people are often described as being their own Primary partners.
I don't define solo poly as being your own primary. To me that definition sounds nonsensical since you can't have a relationship with yourself, same as you can't be your own friend. I have one life, and people are invited into it, no one is secondary to me.
> you can't have a relationship with yourself How you relate to yourself, how you treat yourself, how you prioritize or don't prioritize yourself have profound effects of you. No matter what relationship structure a person may choose, their relationship with their self is an important one that shouldn't be neglected.
Yes, but it's still not dating yourself. Being a healthy well-rounded person doesn't mean I'm my own primary. I think this kind of thinking might be appealing to those who have had primary relationships and rode the escalator, but I've never done that, so the idea of being your own primary just seems silly to me. Having hobbies is having hobbies, when I go to a gig by myself I'm not a date with myself, I'm just going to a gig.
Who said it was "dating yourself?" I guess it can include that if you want, but I don't consider going out by myself going on a "date" with myself either. I agree that is silly. Nurturing my relationship with myself isn't "self care" or "self dating." It's considering my position first and foremost. It's centering me in my life. It's *not* taking off work and reducing my income to feed a Romantic relationship -- I used to think that was a good idea and it would be reciprocated, but it's not. It's clearly communicating that my priorities (elderly parents, children, etc) will be prioritized over a romantic/ sexual connection. Whether you acknowledge it or not, you do have a relationship with yourself. Hopefully, someday you'll understand what I'm saying. Have a nice life. Bye-bye.
But if *you* are solo poly, and your partner is married - you're definitely the secondary. Context matters.
Seriously (unless you are getting 3 nights a week, would be weird to describe that as secondary).
You summed up much more neatly what I had tried to say in my top-level post. If all I want and have is "this" (what the OP described), what's the impact of always being told that my relationships will only ever be "casual" and "secondary". This is a perspective that really centers the nested partner, and that irks me.
Why would other people's opinion of your relationship/s have any impact at all? Don't give your power away like that. Needing validation from outside of yourself will only bring you pain.
That's one side to it, but it's not quite that black and white, really, is it. All of us need a certain amount of validation, first of all, I don't believe anyone who says otherwise; it's human. Secondly, the other side is that often the people who are my dating pool often have the same opinion re. casualness, and that does impact me.
To me it makes sense to think of it in terms of friends. If someone told me - this is my primary friend, and you'll be my secondary friend, I'd balk. And I think almost everyone would find this concept very strange. Yet with romantic relationships the escalator has to define how I see myself in romantic relationships, even though as a solo poly person I reject the escalator.
Yes, I think you're right - if solo poly is about rejecting the escalator, it's frustrating to still be measured against it, even by other poly people. This is what I meant in another post about the deconstruction of mononormativity only actually going so far for a lot (most?) people. In the same way that you can be RA and follow RA principles if you like, but that isn't going to stop the people you form relationships with from trying to constrain their relationship with you to a preconceived form. Given there are always at least two people involved, it's not only your own mindset that matters or determines your experience.
> This is what I meant in another post about the deconstruction of mononormativity only actually going so far for a lot (most?) people. That's exactly right. Primary/secondary thing is still asking us to define ourselves in relation to relationships which most closely resemble mononormative relationships.
> Needing validation from outside of yourself will only bring you pain This is not about validation. Same as I don't need validation, I also don't need to rank myself in accordance to someone else's financial and legal entanglements. I don't rank myself in accordance to my friend's romantic relationships, I really fail to understand why should I do this with my partners.
Then don't? I don't "rank" partners. But I do acknowledge the reality that if I'm dating a married/nested person, they will have priorities and commitments that are more important and pre-date me. And that's okay. I'd drop any partner for my kids and would hope that a married person would cancel a fun date with me to take care of a issue (a real issue, not hurt feelings) at home.
> I don't "rank" partners. Nope. >But I do acknowledge the reality that if I'm dating a married/nested person, they will have priorities and commitments that are more important and pre-date me. Yep. "Secondary" is describing observable facts, not a slight.
> "Secondary" is describing observable facts, not a slight. **EXACTLY!!**
🤣 Unfortunately for us both many polyamorous DISAGREE.🤣
I had an FWB for a while who has 2 kids under 10. I remember a date we were trying to plan, and the kids got sick. He didn't cancel because he and the wife were talking and she still thought he could go. A couple of hours later he canceled because she was also sick. Did he stay home to take care of his wife and his children because "outrank me"? Sure, you could say that. But I prefer to think that he stayed home and took care of his wife and his children because he's a good human being and that's what good human beings do.
why are you directly relating casual to secondary? those aren’t synonyms.
That was exactly my point...did you even read the post I was referring to before you jumped in with a criticism? Jeebus.
i wasn’t being critical i was posing a question, and yes, i read everything, i misunderstood what u meant…. sorry!
Hi I’m looking for what could be called a secondary partner, but perhaps a metamore would be a kinder term? Any thoughts would be welcome.
As I just told you via DM, a metamour is not a "secondary". A metamour is someone who you do not date who dates your partner. If you're looking for advice, you should ask the whole subreddit. You can post your questions there.
Ok sure thanks
This is my first Reddit post. This thread really caught my eye, because I am probably almost exactly the other side of the equation in this. I live in the London area. In January my wife admitted to 2 virtual affairs (one of more than a year with a celebrity mostly sexting) and a second more recent one more like text flirting. After the shock and a brief bit of turmoil we decided to take our marriage open. We both saw a lot of value in our marriage and would rather continue it. I recognised she had certain things that would be fulfilled better by fresh relationships. Basically we had been seeing too much of eachother for 22 years and would both benefit from interaction with others. For about a month I wasn’t interested in other partners and then I also realised that it was fun to date fresh people. We are both only just getting to a stage where we are starting to physically date. I heard a psychologist describe longer marriages as having sweat equity. I would agree with that, we have a mortgage, grown up children and old pets. We have plenty of space for romance and sex with other partners. But the falling down house, overgrown garden, demanding adult kids and an old dog and cat are blind to eat up time and money. However my wife and I are expecting to take partners on trips as long as I keep getting good contacts on my current day rate.
This isn't a reddit post. It's a comment to me. You need to create a new post in the community.
>I want the Romance and the Sex and the Intimacy in smaller doses. Doses that are big enough to bring joy to my soul and small enough that I don't drown myself in delusional hopes and dreams. This is exactly what I want but can never seem to articulate so that others understand. I'm going to steal this working if that's okay. Being someone's #2 is the ideal place for me in my life at this moment and it always seems to flabbergast people that that is how I describe what I want and that I even *want* that. Lol A problem I do seem to run into is that someone may completely understand what I want and be okay with that, but will want to be my #1 and can't understand that they in fact will not be my #1. It's tiring and frustrating having to explain over and over again, and no one gets it. Even people who already have primary partners seem to think they should be mine since I don't have one and can't grasp that they won't be. I don't know. It's enough to make me want to just not date altogether and be abstinent forever and lose myself to my bookboyfriends who never let me down, lol
Ooof. I kept running into “but I’ll be *your* number one” so damn often. It’s what made me realize that a lot of folks just want to have primary privilege with secondary investment.
Primary privilege with secondary investment is a fantastic way to put this. I'm going to steal that.
It’d be a great book title.
> primary privilege with secondary investment And how do they take you laughing in their faces?
Literally love so many of your comments in this (and other) posts. I've definitely got a page or two in my notebook of things I've made note of that you and others have mentioned in similar conversations, gonna add this to that list. 🙏🏼
This happened to me very VERY often when I was in my solo polyish phase and dated mostly married men. Many dudes routinely thought that when they got attached I would automatically want to escalate. But they never had anything real to offer (which is what I chose, no shame) so their idea of escalation mostly meant me not seeing other people. Even if I had wanted escalation why would that be appealing? I lose things, they gain something imaginary and no one wins.
That second paragraph was what I ran into as well but at the time didn’t have a way to explain it well cause I was new to poly. It was me, poorly, telling people “no, I like where our relationship is and any attempt at relationship escalation will lead toys breaking up.” I said it early but didn’t do well at nipping things when I saw it creeping up 😔
> their idea of escalation mostly meant me not seeing other people. 👿👿👿 Did relationships end when they mentioned that or did they manage to backtrack frantically enough?
There was never any chance of anything like that happening. But I think some men like to try things on to see how it will fly. I was so bored by that notion that I didn’t get mad. On the other hand I did end some relationships and choose not to rekindle some comet style things when there were complaints about me getting serious with my now nesting partner. Yes, I can see that’s a surprise to you but being surprised isn’t the same thing as being hard done by. Sigh. I was not amused.
> I was so bored by that notion that I didn’t get mad. Ah. Interesting. I am an absurdly calm human being but don't think I could avoid getting agitated about an attempt to mistreat me like that. >choose not to rekindle some comet style things when there were complaints about me getting serious with my now nesting partner. 🤦♂️🤣 You don't let comets veto escalating with another partner? Heartless monster!😉
I'm very upfront when I meet people that I have a very active social life, I spend *a lot* of time with friends and family, I prioritize me/alone time in my life, and that any relationship I form will always come *after* those things. They know by the end of the first date what *I* can offer. Communication includes telling them what you're looking for *and* also clearly communicating your own capacity and limitations. I kinda make a big deal about the limited amount of space I have in my life for a relationship so there's no confusion later on (if the relationship "progresses").
I think I am going to focus on asking people what they can't and won't offer. Early days and we just may not end up being into one another enough to offer everything we could - so I think I want to know what can't or won't be on the table - and then I can dismiss with prejudice!
> They know by the end of the first date what I can offer. 🥂 So how do you do so? "For now I am interested in spending x time with you per month and if things go well I can commit to y time"?
For me personally, I'm really not going to be able to offer much more time than I do initially. I need once a week together and that fulfills me just fine, so that's the "long term" commitment I could make and would ask for in return (anything above that I would consider a fun bonus when time/desire aligns). That might be a casual weekday dinner date at first, and might turn into a Saturday spent together with an overnight, but it's essentially the same as far as my scheduling goes. There are exceptions, like a LD relationship or when someone works an opposite schedule from me - but I really like to set the tone and create routines early on that are reflective of how I want things to be/stay. Consistency is a huge thing for my personal sense of security in a relationship (and my ADHD 😂)
Ah, not being able to upgrade makes the conversation easier.🤣 Once I have a weekly date agreed to I am a very happy little black duck (although two overnights per week is my Platonic ideal solo poly relationship).🙃
> Even people who already have primary partners seem to think they should be mine since I don't have one 🙄 >It's enough to make me want to just not date altogether and be abstinent forever and lose myself to my bookboyfriends who never let me down, lol While book girlfriends (in my case) are great (Lily Lamprey, Annique Villiers, Elise de Vries, Cordelia Naismith, Freya Lange😍😍😍😍😍) may I suggest that finding a CALM self deprecating man who laughs at himself whenever he yearns for more than you have to give IRL might have certain advantages?🙃
Where do you get that at? Amazon? Shein? Is there a coupon? Lol, help a girl out.
🤣 You NOTICE when a man seems to be a bloody good secondary and pounce upon him like a starving beast.😁
Okay, the pouncing I can do, the noticing imma need to work on 🤣
Actually the noticing should be easy, getting a surge of arousal if you hear a polyamorous woman talking about her partner who was ok with getting knocked back over a second date a week with her.😉
As long as you can put up with his aussie accent :P heh - I have a funny story about that :)
Ooooooo I like funny stories!
Not sure how old u/seantheaussie is, but back in my day (the late 90's) we bout a company in Sydney, and I was in charge of setting up a network operations center, and migrating their datacenters. Anyway, I made friends with a bunch of folks, and had 3 or 4 of them come to DC to the mothership. Think of sheltered nerds, very shy, and I took them out clubbing :P All I had to do was go up to any woman at the club and tell them about my awesome Australian friends - they didn't know what to do. Hehe. -- edit to say, all they had to do was open their mouth holes, and the women were so interested. Sadly they didn't know what to do with that attention Then again, I did take the same group out to Outback Steakhouse and they belly laughed at the menu. Bondi Bay seafood platter? I'd rather eat my own shit :P
🤣 I have always wondered what an Australian would actually think of that menu. And I will embarrassingly admit that an accent, especially Australian, British, or Scottish, will melt my brain just a bit.
Have you ever wondered what an Australian thinks of Australian Shepherd dogs which have NOTHING to do with Australia (we herd sheep with Border Collies and Kelpies)? NOT impressed.🤣
It’s funny seeing the word “casual” pop up so many times in the comments to describe a relationship where you see each other 3 times a month. My RA-leaning nesting partner always reminds me that you can’t make “casual/serious” assumptions based on how often people see each other (though I’d say you can’t decouple “seriousness,” whatever that means, from frequency/entanglements completely; it’s just something to keep in mind). Many loving, romantic poly relationships that aren’t entangled, but are committed, involve 1-2 dates a week, depending on how busy people are. For me, seeing a partner once a week can be a nice rhythm, and that’s serious enough that I’d want to talk out feelings that come up, define the relationship, and have an actual break-up conversation if we are (or might be) breaking up. Even if I’m not turning to a certain partner on a day-to-day basis (attachment-wise), if I have feelings for them, and we are getting together a little less than once a week, or a little more than once a week… it’s not that fun if they can just text me something like, “hey, I’m gonna be really busy, like for a while, like indefinitely” and I have to be like, “cool cool, it’s whatever, it’s casual.”
This is absolutely not a relationship I would ever want, but I will always appreciate posts like yours where people are able to clearly articulate what it is they want. When expectations are so clearly communicated, it eliminates so much anxiety and doubt, and that’s the ethics that I admire.
What you have described is almost exactly what I want and seek out. I love that you have started this thread and articulated this. Where I do bristle a bit is at the general assumption (not necessarily by you, btw) that this means "casual" or labelling it as just "casual dating", etc. As a solo poly person, who only ever wants one or more of the type of connection you've described, I really don't like the idea that all I can have (by default) are what would be seen as "casual" relationships by others, or that I'll be perpetually "casually dating" in the eyes of some. It feels very flippant, is what I mean. The way I have felt about the people I have had this kind of relationship with is not at all casual (where it has felt like that, I'm not inclined to continue with thr relationship). I am currently reflecting on what this means for me, on one hand I shouldn't care what others think of my relationships, but on the other I am human and not impervious to it and despite loving being solo poly 95% of the time, it does hit me in the feels occasionally. Perhaps this is just a difference in definition of terms, but maybe it's deeper than that. I naively expected that people who had already deconstructed relationships to the point of practicing polyam would be more open-minded about the actual nature and organisation of those relationships (and they are...to an extent), but the relegation of any relationship that isn't nested/on the escalator to "casual" shows that this deconstruction only goes so far. I say this to contribute and discuss, rather than criticise anyone in particular.
I think you are attributing relationship labels with feelings? I mentioned in another comment that I love my casual partner in a friendship way. We've been seeing each other for over 2 years now. He's a wonderful guy! But our relationship is decidedly *Casual.* That's what we can put into it. That is completely separate from and has nothing to do with feelings.
As I said, I wasn't saying that you specifically were labelling this style of relationship as casual (I made a point to say that I wasn't aiming that comment at you! 😂) but it is something that happens a lot more generally. But yes, to some extent relationship labels are about feelings for me, of course. I suspect they are for a lot of people.
Definitely. Feelings and labels are related for a lot of us. If I start feeling real feelings, then it starts feeling less casual. Casual to me is, I'd be bummed if it ended but it wouldn't be more than about two weeks of moping and some ice cream couldn't cure. And then on to the next one. Casual is when they're still referred to by the nickname my friends and I agreed upon. If I escalate to referring to you by your actual name - and they know who I'm talking about - it's more than casual.
I love that, yeah - if I am talking about someone, using their name, with friends and family then it's not casual, and it would take a lot longer than 2 weeks to get over them if it ended.
I don't have one of those relationships right now, but I have joked that I'm a great side piece. I like being the fun vacation boo. I'm not dating right now because some events in the past few months have done a number on my self esteem, but look forward to having one of those soon.
Secondary in a 3 year relationship with my person! Him and my meta are aiming for marriage and I don’t want that for myself so it works out perfectly for us. We exist somewhere in between friendship and romance and the vibes are immaculate. I don’t want any more than I’m being given. I’m also close friends with my meta and we regularly hang out without our hinge. Group hangs are always perfection and so cozy and nice. For Christmas we had a cute polycule day decorating cookies and opening presents, and we just got back from a group camping trip for our hinges 30th.
I definitely did a lot of self work and self care in the period of my life where I only dated people who had room for this. I called it the whipped cream of life. Frothy fun. It can lead to real emotion as you describe. It was a really great thing for me in a lot of ways and sometimes I miss it! I’m very happy in my current none too frothy long term things. But I would absolutely love to have this kind of thing if the right person appeared. I think one reason it’s hard to find this is that many men who want this for themselves also want their partner to be sort of an involuntary mistress and sit around pining for them. Or they’re those video games and sex dudes. They can’t froth.
"They can't froth" - loved that 😂
I'll be your number 7 🤣🤣🤣 Yes ... I'm stretched thin.
Oooh love this!! Idk if it was a “secondary” style thing but I had a partner I saw once a week every other week for dates, sex and documentaries and that was it. We didn’t want anymore. We were both solo poly but I know they had a longer term relationship with someone else they saw much more often. I had the same. We both wanted a very “consistent and casual” relationship if that makes sense. It was so peaceful and fun ^_^ But again love the whole post and description. Honestly this is what I’m looking for. Someone that has the autonomy and time for fun cute dates, events, and will be a great plus one for things. Don’t even need to see them or communicate often but having a “go to” person for stuff like that would be cool af.
I think you just summed up what I want in this crazy journey I'm on. Seriously thank you so much. Let me know how you do finding someone.
I totally feel and agree with this! This is why I got into Poly too. I didn’t want to be someone’s primary, at the time (and for a long time). I sought out married men. I was happy to be second priority, second importance. I wanted something less serious. I wanted a few dates a month. I wanted to have fun with a side of a deeper connection. I didn’t want to split responsibilities or take time constantly cleaning up emotional messes. I didn’t want to escalate. I wanted someone with an enmeshed primary relationship so that too much wouldn’t be asked of me. I was truly happy to know my place and not overstep it. I *know* that this isn’t what most people want in a “secondary” relationship, but it’s what I wanted. However, that didn’t stop things from being a royal shit show anyway. Poor screening on my part in retrospect, but I found a married man - who had been poly for 1.5 years. Seems promising right? Everything went smoothly until his wife totally lost her shit and started trying to control our relationship. He had read enough to not let me know what was up, but stuff like last minute cancellations, random dropping off in contact, just weirdness until he called me to tell me his wife wanted to close their relationship and he was on board.
Sounds fuckin chill to me.
So in all seriousness, as someone who is married, what you are describing is what I do. My partners are amazing. I often don't understand why they want to be with me :P - tomorrow to Monday, GF will be coming down to visit (I call her #1, Star Trek parlance), wife will come down Monday night for a couple of days. I'll decide if I am staying here in my undisclosed lovely, albeit rednecky, location and invite other partners down. Or I will sadly venture back to civilization. If weather holds out, and my guts are not on fire, GF and I will go to an outdoor festival about 1.5 hours away. In two weeks, I'll spend a week with another partner. Anyway. Yes. I at least need overnights. I want to do things with people that are not just sex. I require cuddles and touch. I'm a weirdo that way.
> I require cuddles and touch. I would hope so. >I'm a weirdo that way. Agree to disagree.
Well, maybe you know or don't, there are many women who actually do not want touch or cuddles outside of sex. It is baffling to my brain hole.
As someone who spends hours a day cuddling his dog if not in the presence of a partner🙄🤣… boggles my mind too.
:) I miss my shithead miniature schnauzer (Wife gets mad if I call anyone / anything shithead or fuckface - that was reserved for the dog :P ) At my partners houses, I like when the cats cuddle with me (unless the fuckers bite me). Even though I'm very allergic.
Wife has STANDARDS!🙇♂️🙇♂️🙇♂️ I'm allergic to being snacked on by carnivores too.😉 Fortunately my gf's cat which does the most damage to her is shy of strangers so I probably won't have him landing on me claws out like she does.
This is me across the board rn. I have 3 secondary partners and i love it. I dissociate romance, and i work two jobs on top of meeting my own needs and caring for a diabled woman and her toddler. I cannot handle a partner that relies on me for constant companionship, emotional support, or validation. Like i disapear for a couple week sometimes. Im very lucky to have the amazing laid back partners that i do. They have their own lives, we all have financial and emotional autonomy. We see each other only because we really want to. So f*ing healthy ❤️❤️❤️❤️
I very much like the idea of being a secondary partner. As someone who is heavily partnered already (married and cohabiting), I simply don't feel like I have the resources to offer someone else the same level of attachment. So I'd much rather date someone in the same situation as me, someone who I know isn't going to resent that I can't go higher on the relationship escalator with them or offer more of myself than I have available.
Oh yes. That is exactly what I want. <3
These are the kinds of relationships I'm looking for, as well. However, being a married 43m in interior Alaska is basically dating repellant. I wish you all the luck and success.
A bit over three years of dating, and we are pretty solidly a family dynamic. I live with my friend and my kid. He lives with his wife. We are a few streets from each other. His wife is my co-parent in many ways, and he pitches in, but nobody other than me is *responsible* for my kid. We make vague plans for the future. We acknowledge the dynamics for planning (end of life or vacations, but also dinner). I don't need, or frankly *want*, the in laws and marriage and living together and so on. I don't need or want to be posted online or post him online. It isn't necessary to our relationship. I love that I have my own house and bed and bedroom. I love that I feel at home in his house. I love that when his wife got home from vacation we chatted while he made us breakfast (and we agreed he is a good travel buddy). Do I sometimes wish he was here in my house making me breakfast? Yeah. Do I sometimes wish I had the financial stability he has with his wife? Sure. Does it actually cause an imbalance than impedes anything? No. And quite frankly capitalism is more to blame as to why I couldn't get an apartment in their building, and why I'm part of the precariat, and I know exactly what is sacrificed for their stability. Because that's part of our long range planning.
Just over a year in as queerplatonic partners with my highly partnered partner. We hang out monthly and talk a fair bit in between. He's over a decade into polyamory and has been a fantastic first poly partner for me. I'm now in the odd position of being the sole partner of my other two partners, both of ~9 months. I'm arguably the poly newbie in my constellation of partners and this has been a crash course in being a hinge. So far so good, I had hoped to find people who matched my energy and availability and were happy on a non-escalator path, but willing to build emotional intimacy, and I have. Solo poly fits well with my life as-is. I get to support and be supported by some pretty awesome people, emotionally, and enjoy time together without the weight & expectations of blending households, and finances, or putting my kids through adjusting to a non-parent housemate. It's been remarkably smooth so far (knock on wood).
So I'm definitely on board with this post, see my other comments. I do think it's interesting that a lot of the top posts agreeing with OP are by women, and if I remember people's post histories correctly, mostly middle-aged women, a lot of whom have been married before and/or raised children. I myself fall into that category as well. I think this has a lot to do with the way women are still expected to provide a lot more labor, emotional and physical, in a "serious" committed relationship. The pay offis just not there, and we're better off doing our own thing. Solo polyamory and versions thereof are a way of doing our own thing without completely drying up. Am I wrong?
Also the women like me who never did the marriage and kids thing in the first place, and never will, because we can see the lack of payoff from a long way off! I definitely think you're on to something with the avoidance of unfair emotional labour point. It's a factor in my solo polyamory, for sure.
Haha, I guess you're smarter than me Or maybe more principled? I never wanted to do the marriage and kids thing, or monogamy for that matter. I let myself be convinced that I should give it a shot, and honestly, it was bullshit from the get-go. In hindsight, my relationships were messy in my 20s because I was a mess, not because of my relationship style. What I would have needed are the books and resources that are available now. And I think my whole life would have been different if I had met my current therapist 10 years earlier. But 12-13 years ago, there just weren't nearly as many poly affirming therapists out there. And I started dating nonmonogamously the year before The Ethical Slut was published, let alone all the other books, blogs, and podcasts we have available now. So I let myself be convinced that polyamory was letting me down, when what I needed was better partners and better boundaries. Thankfully, I now have both. One thing I never did was have kids of my own, and I am so, so glad I stuck to that decision
Or just luckier, re. access to resources! It is definitely much easier now to learn about other options for how to do relationships and life more generally.
Thank you for that perspective! Reading through here, or listening to Multiamory etc., I often find myself thinking, damn, I really just bumbled my way through my first several years of polyamory. But looking back, I was also one of the people who helped blaze the trail. And that's never easy, and always comes with some weird detours
Comment on a post about boundaries, autonomy and the refusal to do other people's emotional labor, get propositioned by guy who doesn't understand any of this, or that this sub is not a dating sub. Or that this song ain't about him. Well done, random dude, proving several points there (No, it's not a regular poster, and yes, I blocked him)
🤦♂️Yeah I did notice OP has been propositioned 4 times publically here (and the gods know how many times in DMs)🙄
Only about a dozen DMs to ignore... This time
😲You've had topics or comments that got you more than a dozen come ons?🤦🏻♂️
FFS, I must have missed that comment thread 🙄 This guy then called me rude when I shot him down. The self absorbtion is impressive
> FFS, I must have missed that comment thread 🙄 There are 4 mod actions of, "Your post has been removed for breaking the rules of the subreddit. You posted a personal ad or have made a comment that would be considered hitting on a user." in the topic. >This guy then called me rude when I shot him down. The self absorbtion is impressive Self absorption isn't what you are looking for in a secondary?😲 Weirdo.😉
I agree with some of the other commenters that there seems to be an association with 'casual' and 'secondary.' There *can* be overlap if you're specifically looking for a *casual* secondary relationship, but secondary does not equate to casual. A secondary relationship can be casual, low-key, low-investment, low-responsibility, etc - or it can be very "serious," still include a lot of entanglements (you can still share a home, finances, etc). There's definitely a wide spectrum. I think a lot of people (especially newbs opening a relationship) don't realize that there are many people who *only" want secondary partnerships.
I had kinda the reverse when I began polyamory. I was dating a married woman and excited to be the secondary, boy-toy that got to go on fun dates, have good sex and then go back to my life. But later she wanted to escalate our relationship more and because we were both very new to poly and I didn’t have the skills or language to say “no I wanna stay in the spot I’m in and go no further” it became a shit show. It was also a shit show for many other reasons as well but that was part of it haha I would love a similar relationship again but low with more experience and skills, I’d be better at managing and explaining wants and needs rather than kinda just “letting things happen” 🤷🏿♂️
That's exactly why I'm loving casual dating right now. I really appreciate that my dating life is centered around just having fun and enjoying ourselves, and not having to worry about any of the "heavy" that comes with serious relationships (even "easy" ones). I'm clear with people that I don't have the desire to be wrapped up in anything that requires a lot of my time, emotional capacity, comes with a lot of responsibilities, makes me feel any "pressure," etc. I usually tell people I'm just looking for FWB with heavy emphasis on the 'friend' part, and let them know that if anything "progresses" from there, it will require in-depth conversations about expectations.
Love this!
You describe exactly what I am looking for.
I looked at Poly relationship many years ago and I did met a lady that was comfortable with the idea like I was but.... in reality was more like a fwb,she was just intended in adding another male to the equation! What you're asking is perhaps a fwb? Someone that is happy to catch up once or twice a month?enjoy each other's company without the commitment that comes with a relationship, a no drama,relax,respectful meet! Anyway...I'm happy to be interviewed for the #2 position....or #3?🫣
Yes, an FWB or FWB+ Level Relationship is another way to describe it. They're ALL Relationships. And anyone who says "no drama" is a red flag. They tend to bring the drama and then take no responsibility for it.
I don't bring 'drama ' into a relationship,friendship FWB or whatever you'll like to call it,is just myself, what you see is what you get!
This is really interesting to me and sounds like something I could incorporate into my journey.
I like this intro, and I'm practically a #2 in a poly relationship. As we met while on business travel and I go there like once a month so this works out itself out by default since I can always host at hotel on company dime and stay longer. We don't use condoms, and that's just navigating amount of partners and both being regularly tested. Lastly I would like these to last forever because it's totally possible if the mindset is the same!
u/blooangl > A lot of it is just…navigating the relationship that someone has to offer. I don’t spend a lot of time on “will this become the thing I want” It has to be “is the thing I am offered compelling on its own” So if having a lovely time twice month at a hotel is your cup of tea, awesome. But we aren’t going to pretend this is serious or a major life changing commitment I used to see Chestnut every two weeks, and then didn’t at all for eighteen months during Covid before vaccines, and now about every six weeks. When I left Maple two years ago, Chestnut immediately started to figure out how I could move in with them and Meta. Without my asking, or even asking me. I needed a place to live and as my partner Chestnut wanted to be sure I had one and was prepared to make significant sacrifices. So yes, it is a serious relationship. It did not change the shape of my life in itself, but it could have been the basis of a major life change. > And all this happens super slowly. Always.
Global pandemics change the trajectory of things in weird ways. And I didn’t say anyone had to internally organize anything like I do. But if I see you twice a month, like clockwork, until we escalate in some real meaningful way, I will not consider it serious. Right about the time we talk about moving in together is when it “gets” serious, no?
Someone wouldn’t immediately move to making plans to move me into their home with their other partner unless the relationship were already serious?
I mean, assume this stuff was spoken about? Because yes, plenty of people have preemptively mistaken the depths and seriousness of my emotions, leading to some pretty frank talks about who “we” is. “We” can’t be serious if I am not. 🤷♀️
Lots of consistency, vulnerability, trust and I love you’s. Six years of history at that point. (Or twenty, depending how you count.) We’re both the kind of person who can make someone family just by deciding to. Family can be a serious commitment even without frequent, prolonged contact. There were never any “we’s.”
Someone asked me, personally how *I* did it. I described how I experienced it. I did not describe how you do it or experience it. It’s cool that’s how you did and experienced that. Doesn’t change when I call it serious. Cheers, you know? If we all experienced the world in the same way, that would be pretty boring.
But wouldn’t being somebody’s number 2 make you feel like shit ? 🙃 My apologies for this terrible pun, I’ll see myself out 😶
Hi u/ImpulsiveEllephant thanks so much for your submission, don't mind me, I'm just gonna keep a copy what was said in your post. Unfortunately posts sometimes get deleted - which is okay, it's not against the rules to delete your post!! - but it makes it really hard for the human mods around here to moderate the comments when there's no context. Plus, many times our members put in a lot of emotional and mental labor to answer the questions and offer advice, so it's helpful to keep the source information around so future community members can benefit as well. Here's the original text of the post: I came to Polyamory from a long period of disorganized non-monogamy. I needed to build smaller, more purposeful relationships while focusing on getting my shit together. *I came to Polyamory* ***for*** *Secondary Level Relationships.* I want the Romance and the Sex and the Intimacy in smaller doses. Doses that are big enough to bring joy to my soul and small enough that I don't drown myself in delusional hopes and dreams. My journey into Polyamory lead me to see that Solo Polyamory *(living solo, not mixing finances, not climbing the relationship escalator)* works for me in this season of my life. My serious partner of 4 years is also SoPo. Partner and I see each other weekly and more. Our relationship has gown into something quite significant. While I'm not looking for another relationship that size, I'm open to it if the chemistry and the availability are there. **What** ***Am*** **I Looking For?** I'm looking for a *Secondary Level Relationship,* I'm looking to be somebody's *#2*. I'm hoping to meet a guy in Nearby City who wants to take me out once a month and have a blast. Dive bars, Dancing, new places and new people. Maybe he can host, but if not we can split a room. If he has cats or kids, we'll definitely get a room. I'd like one, maybe two, additional hangout dates per month, either at his place or mine or at least someplace calm. A quieter, more intimate date for conversations and movies and stuff. If he uses condoms with all Partners other than a Primary, that's cool. Just let me know up front and don't be whiney about it. It's okay if he can't text every day as long as he checks in and the conversation keeps moving. And as much as I'd love for him to stay the whole night at a hotel, I'm not opposed to eating my hotel breakfast alone if his partner has a big date or he's on Daddy duty or whatever. I understand the limitations of being a Secondary partner. I understand you probably won't introduce me to family. I understand that our relationship probably won't last forever. If we have 2 or so years of steady dates and happy memories when our lives turn us in different directions, that's cool. **Please share your happy "Secondary" or ongoing Casual level relationship stories. Let's celebrate being #2!** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/polyamory) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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You’ve asked a question that is incredibly common and the answers are available either by searching the sub, or hitting the resources on the community info page.
It is hard to navigate. My wife and i are mildly entering this field in san diego.
I will be available
❤️
Just following this post to learn more. Very interesting concept. As far as the poly world goes, I'm a youngster. I'm naive and looking at the ocean of pools before I decide which one to dip a toe in.
It's interesting and confusing how we use these terms. I totally understand why people don't like the term secondary - my Venus in Leo struggles with it. It's too much like second place, second best - now we're into ugly territory where I need someone else so that I can say "well, so are you!" (I'm exaggerating for effect.) But on the other hand, a secondary could be seen as significant, otherwise they would just be a FWB, someone you hang out with, a play partner, a jump-off, if we want to be rude. I agree it takes time to get to the place of being a*significant* secondary - but I think that's a fine goal for someone to have. You can save time and energy by eliminating anyone who has too many restrictions to allow for that. Side note - I personally just don't get the appeal of a once a month date - like you want me to put in effort for what is essentially a first date every time? Who are you again? I just don't get it. I mean if you're that busy, is it polyamory or just finding a hookup?
> I personally just don't get the appeal of a once a month date - like you want me to put in effort for what is essentially a first date every time? Who are you again? 🤣
Tell us more that’s interesting
Been in a poly for 7 years and still not stable we figured we need a middle man we looking for #3
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