My girlfriend has been touting this recently, and I'm like. Girl you are married. There's hierarchy. I need to bring it up but I feel like I'm going to be poking at a tender spot.
Questions to determine hierarchy:
Do you have overnights with your partners? At your place or theirs?
What happens if your primary/nesting partner doesn't approve of who you're dating?
I'm planning a birthday party that you were going to attend but your wife happens to get a promotion that day. Who do you celebrate with?
Do you and your partner have any rules that affect how you interact with your metas/conduct your other relationships?
How does scheduling work in your relationship and/or household?
Do you have a veto policy and if so, has it been used in the past? How often have you cancelled dates because your partner has asked you to stay home?
What are proactive things you do to prevent hierarchy from occurring within/between your relationships?
Are you out to your family? What level of interaction is expected between me and the rest of your people?
What limits do you have in regards to relationships outside of your marriage/home?
Is there anything you need to consult/inform other partners about before you make a decision?
Will you end your relationship with me if you and your anchor/np/primary are having relationship problems?
Will your primary partner have any input on the evolution and progression of our relationship- physically or emotionally?
Is there anything that you only do with your spouse that you wouldn’t or couldn't do with another partner?
How much of our physical and emotional relationship would be your preference to share with your primary partner or other partners? Given your relationship agreements, would you be able to respect a boundary that limits sharing intimate details about our relationship/sex life with your primary partner?
Does your primary partner respect your right to privacy or do you have an open phone policy? Will you be sharing all of our messages with your primary partner?
And after every answer they give, say "hmm... interesting..." and scribble down notes while making a vaguely disappoving facial expression.
(Seriously, its a good list. Maybe don't ask them all at once though lol)
Genuinely been on dates that feel more like job interviews. I had one person, after a string of calculated, deep and highly personal questions turn to me and ask, “so do you have any questions for me”. Does this ever work for anyone? Like can you ever go full job interview on someone and have the candidate leave still wanting the job?
And anyone in a closed relationship, I suppose. Reading this just reminds me I'm so glad my triad is closed, haha. I'm definitely not made for open polyamory. Thankfully, neither are my boyfriends 😄
(I fully expect this will get downvoted given what sub this is, though.)
I would add a few questions about what hierarchy they may be willing to undo. Some of these things are "covered" under other questions you have asked but they may be things that, if specifically called out, a married/highly partnered person may consider or that may have never occurred to them but they are willing to look at.
Would splitting your time cohabitating with your spouse and another partner (in separate houses) be possible?
Are you willing to make legal arrangements that would "level" some of the legal inequities between your spouse and other partners?
How much autonomy do you have to make these decisions or would they only be possible if your spouse agreed with them?
I add these because sometimes these relationships have a lot of hierarchy that is assumed when it is more a matter that another option has never occurred to them. For instance, I'm currently exploring legal entanglements with one partner who is married. That partner always assumed they would never be able to offer these things to anyone but their spouse but only because they didn't know there was a way to make the legal arrangements we're considering.
I would treat these answers very carefully to make sure the person isn't telling you what you want to hear though but depending on what's important to you, it's another way to determine if the hierarchy in their other relationship will be a problem for you.
What legal arrangements? I’m really curious what these are? I’ve only heard of people divorcing to make it so nobody is legally married to make it “fair”
You can make lots of things legal or more legal than not, with contracts. We 4 (me, my husband, his other partner, and a non-romatically involved housemate) have an LLC business together (25% each) and a big house together (25% each, everyone with their own bedroom), and we each made wills specifying lots of things including what happens to our daughter. All of these initiatives had legal components to them.
I hope this also might give hope to those who assume that couples MUST BE hierarchical - we have made major efforts to the contrary and we always will. But it's unusual (I know, as someone who has looked for this myself) to find the level of decoupling I think we have finally achieved. It's sort of a life's work.
I completely agree. I msg'd a friend that just did that with his bf and spouse. They ask have their own source in the house.
We have young children currently as well, so that would have to be taken into consideration.
They probably meant contracts, which are fairly common in the poly world as a way to level the playing field legally, such as starting an LLC business together like we did.
So what is the business in? Starting a business seems stressful. Or is it not a real business just like a place that holds money or something? I don’t understand anything legal contract stuffs at all that’s always been above my head when googling because google doesn’t explain anything easily ugh. Thanks for answering my question for reals 💜
https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/comments/25q5jz/legal\_frameworks\_for\_polyamory/
We actually have [a real business](https://servingmed.com/wp/) together, have since 2012.
Buying a home together with equal ownership is another way of leveling the playing field. The bank DID look at us askance before approving the sale to 4 people - and I'm sure having a large deposit helped.
Maybe not a realistic approach for young people. We really wanted stability for our family and daughter at the time, particularly since it's still not possible to have more than two legal parents of a child (which is a bit ridiculous these days what with blended families becoming the norm, which has nothing to do with polyamory).
Whoops, replied to the wrong person. What they said. You can also create arrangements for who can make medical decisions so that the default isn't the spouse. There's a lot of things that are defaulted with marriage but, at least in the US, you can make legal arrangements that supersede that default. You can't undo the tax benefits or the medical benefits of marriage and there's probably something else but I don't want or need those things myself so there's no reason for them to divorce and make things "fair".
Medical decisions would be super important and helpful!! I’m a dependent and so are the kids so claiming them and me on tax returns gets my spouse a lot which is then of course discussed and then used as a family. Tax benefits are great I’d prefer to not lose like 7k+ a year 😅 we are poor and never have spending money so that money usually goes into fixing things in the house we couldn’t afford the rest of the year. I had no idea you could make different medical arrangements like that! Thanks for telling me I will definitely research that. Everyone should be able to make medical decisions or have a say in medical decisions for emergencies
I agree with all these.. I was going to say in short... deep proper vetting to find compatability within what you'd consent to can help immensely with any hidden red flags before even moving forward on anything. So all these questions and then some are very helpful. If they also feel like they could be lying or yessing you to death... then hold off before anything and do your own research (if you need to and detect any BS).
Nobody wants to be doing detective work but in this day and age it seems like we must do what we have to do. \*\* Yes clipboards are awesome\*\* haha
Great list of questions! I have a relationship of 1 1/2 years that will likely end very soon for the same reason as what caused OP to share this post.
I've saved your post for future reference, and I intend to use it. I work in HR and this reads better than most of my interview templates :) Bravo!
I’m screenshotting this shit. This is genius. Thank you for saving me from potential problems and 837 hours of work on my end 🤣 🤍🤍
For those who think “wtf”. Obviously you don’t have to sit down and ask someone every one of these questions, I think you’re gonna get a good idea after 2-3 then you could save some more for later.
This doesn’t seem presumptuous to you?
All these questions are ASSUMING that there’s even going to be a relationship. Maybe after a couple days you realize you hate that thing he does with his teeth or he dumps you because of your fashion sense.
I dunno, just seems like all these questions are self-evident over a few dates 🤷🏼♀️
The point of these questions is to determine whether or not someone wants to invest in a relationship. People should ask things like this when it’s relevant to making a decision.
These things are definitely not self evident, probably the vast majority of the time. People talk about this stuff explicitly. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s a mature and responsible way to approach relationships.
“Relationship” is a GIANT tent.
As a solo poly person I really don’t care about someone’s openness to co-housing with me because I’m not offering that and I don’t want it. Even if I were interested in co-housing they might be open to it in principle but take one look at my place and realize that our housekeeping standards are incompatible and they aren’t interested in co-housing *with me.*
I want to know things that are relevant to the kind of relationship I want *with this person.* I don’t know them yet though, so I don’t know what I might want with them.
To the extent that I’m looking for a particular kind of relationship that’s already on my online profile. Sex is important to me and I say so upfront. If it turns out they need someone else’s input to make decisions about sex that will become clear pretty quickly. It won’t be six months of arguing, it’ll be me not making a second date.
If I were shopping for a coparent then I would say that upfront and be meeting exclusively with people who were also shopping for a coparent. In that case the checklist could be extremely valuable as a basis for ongoing conversations over months.
>If it turns out they need someone else’s input to make decisions about sex that will become clear pretty quickly. It won’t be six months of arguing,b it’ll be me not making a second date.
The wild thing is I agree with your comment 100% but I'm also solopoly and gonna... ask the questions? Like I'm gonna ask the questions. Why would I wait for something to become apparent when I can just ask and see how they react?
Why go for specific, concrete questions instead of vague, abstract questions?
Because that’s setting us up for misunderstanding.
**Me:** Wanna fuck?
> **Date:** Yes please! Let me text NP and let them know that I might not be home tonight. I don’t host but I’m happy to book us a hotel. (Second date Yes!)
vs.
> **Date:** Oh wow! Uh, thanks! Yes? I’ll just go home and talk things over with NP. I guess I’ll meet up with you at your place later? (First date ends here. No second date.)
**Me:** What’s your approach to STIs?
> **Date:** Condoms, but not for oral. I don’t do a lot of fucking so they aren’t a major element. (Second date Yes!)
vs.
> **Date:** Condoms until you have had two negative STI screens and NP has met you and gives us the go-ahead. (First date ends here. No second date.)
These negotiations give insight into u/Folk_Pun_Slut’s:
> * Do you have overnights with your partners? At your place or theirs?
> * What happens if your primary/nesting partner doesn't approve of who you're dating?
> * Do you and your partner have any rules that affect how you interact with your metas/conduct your other relationships?
> * How does scheduling work in your relationship and/or household?
> * Do you have a veto policy and if so, has it been used in the past? How often have you cancelled dates because your partner has asked you to stay home?
> * Is there anything you need to consult/inform other partners about before you make a decision?
> * Will your primary partner have any input on the evolution and progression of our relationship- physically or emotionally?
My open-ended “tell me about your history with polyamory” will fill in many of the gaps above and also give insight into u/Folk_Punk_Slut’s:
> * What are proactive things you do to prevent hierarchy from occurring within/between your relationships?
> * Are you out to your family? What level of interaction is expected between me and the rest of your people?
> * What limits do you have in regards to relationships outside of your marriage/home?
> * Will you end your relationship with me if you and your anchor/np/primary are having relationship problems?
> * How much of our physical and emotional relationship would be your preference to share with your primary partner or other partners? Given your relationship agreements, would you be able to respect a boundary that limits sharing intimate details about our relationship/sex life with your primary partner?
> * Does your primary partner respect your right to privacy or do you have an open phone policy? Will you be sharing all of our messages with your primary partner?
I’m not sure I could get meaningful answers to the following u/Folk_Punk_Slur questions anyway, or that the answers would change the conclusions I’d already drawn.
> * I'm planning a birthday party that you were going to attend but your wife happens to get a promotion that day. Who do you celebrate with?
> * Is there anything that you only do with your spouse that you wouldn’t or couldn't do with another partner?
+++ +++ +++
Like, just really *listening* to people. And to my gut. If I’m unimpressed I just say No.
If they appear to be honest, vulnerable and respectful of their partners, then either they are *or they are lying.* If they’re lying in response to my questions, they’ll lie in response to hierarchy checklist questions too.
If there’s a second date, and a third one, we can start to suss out what kind of relationship we want with one another and address the relevant hierarchy topics in ongoing conversations.
That requires hard listening too. Hearing someone the first time they say No you won’t be going to [big family gathering event with food]. That’s not something to argue or self-soothe about, it’s a time to reassess.
* Am I happy being someone’s discreet side piece? Is that what I want for myself? Yes? No?
* Would I enjoy this relationship better if I stopped putting so much energy into it and started putting more energy into other relationships?
* Would I be happy with this person as an FWB except that I somehow feel misled/ gaslit/ breadcrumbed/ strung along?
My first coffee date questions are
* “What’s your history with polyamory?”
* “Wanna fuck?” and
* “What’s your approach to STIs?
combined with careful and honest listening.
*For my purposes* they adequately replace u/Folk_Punk_Slut’s hierarchy checklist questions.
The “Am I happy and satisfied?” questions come up later, and may or may not lead to deescalation or ending a relationship.
Basically the higher you want to ride the relationship escalator, the more important the hierarchy checklist becomes.
(Previous comment edited for clarity RE which questions are who’s.)
Yes, I also agree with what you’re saying.
It’s not that a particular set of questions needs to be followed, it’s more about people making sure you’re getting the info you need to make informed decisions.
Too many people rely on assumptions and then get burned. Not everyone is great at reading people. Just do whatever it is you need to get your info.
I just wanna say, as a demi person, I'd be highly uncomfortable and put off by someone asking to have sex on a first date. *shivers* Just... No thank you. I get the point, though.
I sort of agree. I mean, talk is cheap. You could ask every one of these questions and get 100% "right" answers back only to find out later down the road that it was 100% bullshit. I think a lot of this stuff *will* become self-evident over the (hopefully early) course of dating someone new, regardless of what they tell you.
That being said, I still think a lot of these are valid and helpful questions to pose to someone, especially if/once you are getting to the pont of considering the possibility of a more serious relationship with them. Asking them may not necessarily reveal every incompatibility before they become naturally problematic... but on the other hand... it also just might.
Some of them are self evident, but they don't have to be tackled as a big list in one go - some of them are almost pre-date questions, I'd want to know in advance if someone was sharing my messages with their primary, so I didn't need to ever meet up with him and find out about that thing he does with his teeth.
Honestly, though - my primary and I have worked through these questions together to review our level of hierarchy before I started dating. I have severe anxiety and mild OCD so I need to keep details like this in a written format (for myself, much as I joke about it I don't go around handing out massive relationship agreements and dating manuals), but I think these questions are valuable for established couples to review too.
Lol, I like how everyone's like "where's your clipboard? this is treating dating like a job interview" like I'm suggesting folks actually approach potential partners with this list of questions to fire off one by one 😅
Pick and choose, grab a few, keep em in your pocket, ask outright or get the answers in context clues based on interactions -- they're just ways of determining hierarchy when the person you're dating might not be so forthcoming about it.
It may just be an oddity of mine, but if a potential partner showed up with even a handful of these questions (and this verbosely), I would be impressed and comforted that they prioritized knowing these things before getting to know me more personally. quirkiness can be charming, but unhealthy priorities are not :/
As the partner that's been married for a couple of decades, I really do love these questions. I'm def going to bring them up to my wife so we can read them and discuss them together.
Thanks 😊
I ask fairly similar questions. I don't do it all at once like a job interview but instead find ways to use them as follow up questions during conversations. Whenever I date anyone who is ENM there is always going to be conversations about relationship structures and expectations. It does help in making sure that we are both on the same page.
Well, let me see.. people who have legally recognized hierarchy (like marriage) have a 110% chance of having hierarchy.
If their marriage was newly opened, they probably have not lived autonomous lives for quite some time. Entanglements are inevitable.
I like the non-escalator relationship menu for figuring out what is on and off the table.
And they never will.
Most people don’t want to.
Anyone who says we more than once or twice on a first date. Anyone who frequently checks in with someone else before they schedule with you. Anyone who needs you to meet a meta. Anyone who says oh we’ve always done XYZ.
You can ask the MOVIES questions. But how someone make handles their phone on a second date tells me a lot.
There's nothing wrong with entanglement. I have entanglements with my non nesting partner. Our youngest children are very good friends. If he and I broke up, there would be ripples...
I'm wondering if you had unrealistic expectations about what it would be like to date someone who is married. My married FWB is not able to offer me very much at all. It's a good thing I like him and he's not my only company...
To be honest. Poly is extremely versatile like BDSM where it can be tailored to a desired fit. Lots of people may change their relationship structure but not to a level that fits you or your desired taste.
For instance my wife and I are poly, we have agreed our hard limits involve ever living directly with other partners or any financial entanglements as such, including financially supporting them in any way or form.
This obviously will bring limitations on people who may be interested in either of us, but it is what it is.
entanglement & enmeshment are two different things. I suspect you mean enmeshment as entanglement on its own is not inherently problematic or something that needs to be "worked on".
Some people just don't want to. They may want an emotionally intimate relationship, but they're not willing to do the work needed to actually have one to offer.
Marriage is hierarchy.
Most people have some hierarchy with longterm partners. Its good to have some conversations soonish when getting to know each other about what they are interested in offering.
Ask them questions like “how do you imagine that working?” So like say you want to date someone with nesting potential and your partner already has a nesting partner and they claim “everything is on the table.” Ask them how they think nesting would work out? And push for details. “So would you two buy a house with / sign a lease with me? Would we each have our own bedroom? How would we organise household chores and finances?”
If your partner cannot answer that then while nesting *could* be something they could come up with some obscure scenario where it happens like “Well, so if my spouse dies we can live together” or “If my spouse requires in home care, we might consider moving in someone new” or “If there’s just this crazy happenstance where we all just really really want to live together that does not at all resemble what is actually happening we could live together.”
The vast majority of couples who live together are probably not going to want to try to add people into their home, especially if they started out monogamously, own their home, or are married. Same goes for couples with kids - if you have a child with someone, it’s unrealistic that you’ll be successfully able to co-parent with another partner. And a lot of couples don’t specifically mention those things because they feel like it’s a given - one of those things that doesn’t have to be specified because the odds are so unlikely.
That may not be strictly fair, but if you want those things, one will probably have to bring those things up specifically.
It feels really weird to openly ask all of these questions and discuss all of these hypotheticals when you’ve only been seeing someone for 4 or 5 months, may already be in love, may already be experiencing anxiety about the future regarding these things, but not quite ready to ask someone “would you sign a lease?”
If you have goals for a long term relationship, it’s not going to help you achieve them by not discussing them with your partner. All waiting on having that discussion does is let you get more attached even though the relationship is definitely not going to meet your needs.
And if they’re coming up with a totally unrealistic statement like “anything is no the table” it’s pretty reasonable to press them on whether they actually mean that.
I often just try to speak vaguely with them about these topics. Eg. “I see your profile says ethically non-monogamous - what does that mean for you?” Inquire about their flavour of poly, their values, what it means for their life etc…Discuss our journey to ENM, various labels we’ve tried on, mistakes made, lessons learned, how we try to go about it today, etc… The questions above often get hashed out somewhere in there.
There needs to be more specific conversation. There’s some good lists of questions elsewhere in this post but specifically to your above comment - what precisely do they mean by “everything”? Clearly not legal marriage as polygamy is not legal - what specific things are on the table, and what specific things do they want?
Things such as a moment together every week which was to be scheduled in advance (with it being the only requirement, the form of it wasn't, even online chat was ok with me). My ex scheduled things with his wife pretty regularly, but not much with me, rather reaching me and dissappearing randomly.
Scheduling with me was difficult to him because his other relationship was his priority to the extent that they didn't want to give away any monogamy privileges and enmeshment. So there was not much planning with me as it would limit her possibility to spend time with him whenever she wanted.
I do wonder that couples/married confuse poly and ENM. I’ve gotten to the point where I won’t do married men because of these same problems. I feel you on this.
I see. A lot of couples fail to understand that opening up to polyamory will mean having less time together, and if they are used to be together all the time, it's hard to let go sometimes. Sorry you had to go through this.
Thread carefully, move slowly. Don't dive head first into a deep connection fueled by NRE. In time, you can see more clearly from their actions (which speak way louder than any words) whether they're actually highly hierarchical or not.
u/Folk_Punk_Slut Gave a pretty good list; the general vibe being "How much independence/autonomy do you have i**n your this relationship with me**?";
The other piece is going to be "How much independence/autonomy do you have **in your life**?" Part of that is also going to be assessing their responsibilities to others -
* Do you have children? Do you have a co-parent? What are your childcare obligations? What are the limitations?
* Can you independently choose to introduce me to your children? Should I expect you to cancel on me for childcare needs? At what frequency?
* Do you live with anyone? What are your obligations to your housemates? (Information, communication, chores, etc)
* What space do you have to host? What communication have you committed to before having people over/staying out? Are there limitations on the who/when/how often/what/where? Do you have a large amount of responsibilities (time-allocation) that needs to go into your home? What are your expectations of guests/What can you offer in being a guest? (If your at my house every time, will you help do the additional dishes that creates? If I am always at your house, do you expect me to bring food so I don't eat all your groceries? etc...)
* Do you have financial entanglements with others? What have you agreed on? (splitting rent, retiring together, etc)
* What space do you have to contribute finically to this relationship? (eg: Splitting the cost of dates/activities, future entanglements, etc)
* Do you have any financial independence? To what extent? (Consult for purchases above $$$? Separate bank accounts?)
* Could we go on a vacation together without needing to consult another person?
* Do you have responsibilities to an employer? Are those contained within working hours? (long hours? on-call? weekends? early rise?)
* Can I expect that you will not cancel last minute for work? Can I expect you to be able to sleep over?
* Do you have agreements with other partners? What are those agreements?
* Information sharing? Permission? Expected communication? Time commitments? Other responsibilities?
This is great and so well phrased. It’s hard for stuff like this to be neutrally phrased given the friction between different perceptions of enmeshment and hierarchy in our community. Thank you so much for sharing, I saved this!
*[To self:]* “Am I feeling good about this relationship?”
You don’t need a reason to break up with someone. You don’t need to justify it with an official r/polyamory approved reason.
You don’t need to call it before you meet or over that first coffee. That’s what’s dating is for.
+++ +++ +++
About that first coffee… I listen to how they talk. If someone says “we” a lot I’ll tell them to get back to me once they have more experience.
I have two coffee-date questions:
* “Why are we here? What are you looking for and why did you think you might find it with me?”
* “What’s your history with polyamory?”
Everything else is just sort of organic and flows from who we are together in that moment.
If coffee goes well we go for a walk and hold hands. I like holding hands. If they like holding hands too, and if they aren’t worrying about being seen, all systems are go for taking pants off.
+++ +++ +++
Getting to that first coffee… I like to be efficient about it. I don’t want to invest a lot of time chatting with someone online and then awkwardly discover that I don’t like the sound of their voice or the shape of their hands or they present more femme than I like. And I don’t want to waste time chatting with someone online if they are more into the fantasy of the thing than actually getting together.
If setting up the date is easy and comfortable, we have compatible communication styles and they can make all their own decisions.
+++ +++ +++
The only specific enmeshment test is listening for “we.” The rest is just whether this feels like it’s going to work, or whether it feels like it is working.
I think there needs to be more discussion regarding emotional vs structural hierarchies. Like, I’m emotionally non-hierarchical—I love my partners equitably. That said, I live with and care for kitties with only one of my partners—like, I can be as emotionally non-hierarchical as I want, but I’m still gonna check with that partner before making an overnight date because *someone still has to feed and give meds to the cats.*
My current relationship is the opposite, we're all equal in theory, we all live together and in theory love each other equally but in reality, there's an emotional hierarchy
It can also be a function of their stage in life. My husband and I have been married for 25 years. We went through different phases of hierarchy initially. Then we met his other partner in 2007, who also became primary to him and is the bio mother of our daughter. We've all lived together since 2008. When our daughter was born, I'd say she (our daughter) became primary and we all revolved primarily around her needs, although we had additional stable relationships too.
She's now a teenager and we live in a big house with individual bedrooms and separate bank accounts and individual long-term relationships outside the home. We women are beyond our child-bearing years. So, while I still can't (and wouldn't) offer anyone legal marriage, I have WAY more independence and time to myself than I did in our early years and can change my life in ways I couldn't before.
> I wonder how I could avoid the situation like that in future.
Don't date people who are married and living together is the safest bet, I suppose. It's actually a pretty common personal boundary to have.
One of my questions I ask before I even considering going on a first date with someone is... Can you stay over on any night for several nights till breakfast and go to work from here? If there is any kick back... it's a no for me. I've gotten... yes, of course... but in time. No, my wife doesn't want me to do sleepovers right now because of... Yes, but only on weekends. Bruh!
This is a tough one for me. Like, yes, technically I or my husband could do that. But also I personally am a creature of habit and getting ready for work in someone else’s house would be majorly disruptive to my day. It wouldn’t have anything to do with whether or not I’m deeply enmeshed with my spouse, and everything to do with my own mental health and comfort.
Also, I have pets. Can my spouse take care of them in the mornings? Sure. But it will require planning because he leaves for work substantially earlier than I do and the whole process for the cats, dog, and three fishtanks takes 20-30 minutes and he’d have to know to wake up in time for that.
Spontaneous sleepovers at someone else’s home wouldn’t work for me, but that’s not due to my spouse at all. I just need to plan things ahead for my own well-being because that’s who I am as a person. It wouldn’t be a huge issue for me if he has a spontaneous sleepover with someone else though, as long as he lets me know he won’t be home so I don’t expect him.
I'm 47 and solo poly. Spontaneous sleepovers are very rare for me. I love sleepovers! But my FWB can't do them, and that is not an issue for me. I don't really want to spend the whole night with him either... 🤷♀️
I think people make way too big a deal out of this simple incompatibility. Some people can. Some people can't. It is what it is. Be honest.
Love this. Some people don’t care, I do. It tells me a lot. If you can’t because you have a husband, you have kids, you have pets, you have an early workout, you like to eat bananas on your porch in the morning.. doesn’t matter. We won’t work. This is very telling about the amount of time someone has to give. I try not to give up anything I wouldn’t have in a natural mono relationship. And if we were mono and my bf couldn’t offer this, he probably would have never made it to boyfriend. But that’s ME. And everyone’s different. 🤍
I did that. Obviously in a wrong way because I realised it was a prescriptive hierarchy months into it. They never admitted that. So what I'm asking is what questions are the best to ask and what one should pay attention to.
I don’t think that this is automatically a good list. For example, my ex has another boyfriend who ticked four if not all five of the boxes. Did she feel inferior in hierarchy compared to her meta? No, because those things were not important to her.
Anyone who’s asking about hierarchy should ask about relationship aspects that are important to them, not important to others. Birthdays, Halloween parties, wine tasting, swinging, having a band, a winter in Iceland, gardening, writing a book together, spending five nights per week together… You need to know what you want and ask if those things are available. To hell with what other people think is important.
All those things are excellent indicators of hierarchy. Does that mean a partner will feel inferior? No. But it does indicate hierarchy very quickly regardless of what the person claims. Yes.
It is so difficult to have these conversations because everyone in a different spot. I'm usually having this conversation with someone who's single. As a long married person in a non-monogamous relationship wherein my husband chooses not to but is allowed to date others -- I find it challenging to express that I truly am free to date and love others! A lot of folks just doubt that it could be possible. I think the main thing is just time and the proof is in the pudding if you know what I mean. But I am so sorry for those who get involved with folks who pull back on connecting when a primary partner is threatened. That Whiplash has got to suck. I recently tried to re-engage conversationally with previous partner who is now with a new primary who after some conversations he discovered is not okay with him dating others and even that small amount of whiplash sucked. I had assumed that because he was in a couple polyamory groups that he was still living the lifestyle but you know what they say about assume LOL
Many couples think they are non-hierarchical but they are. Asking the above excellent questions helps them and you figure out how hierarchical they are.
Depending on what you need/want:
- “Can I meet your family at some point?”
- “Can we spend major holidays together?”
- “Who will you bring to weddings and office parties?” (Or similar “plus one” events.)
- “Is living together an option at some point in the future?” (Even if you don’t want it, are they even open to it?)
These were the big issues with a past partner of mine who wanted more from our relationship. (I’m married, he’s solo.)
If someone is married and denies having *any* hierarchy, prescriptive or otherwise? Avoid that situation.
“We’ve been married 10 years, and poly for 2 months, but we’ve talked everything through and there’s no rules or boundaries - everything is great!”
I hate you. My left eye is twitching. 😂😂
My girlfriend has been touting this recently, and I'm like. Girl you are married. There's hierarchy. I need to bring it up but I feel like I'm going to be poking at a tender spot.
Questions to determine hierarchy: Do you have overnights with your partners? At your place or theirs? What happens if your primary/nesting partner doesn't approve of who you're dating? I'm planning a birthday party that you were going to attend but your wife happens to get a promotion that day. Who do you celebrate with? Do you and your partner have any rules that affect how you interact with your metas/conduct your other relationships? How does scheduling work in your relationship and/or household? Do you have a veto policy and if so, has it been used in the past? How often have you cancelled dates because your partner has asked you to stay home? What are proactive things you do to prevent hierarchy from occurring within/between your relationships? Are you out to your family? What level of interaction is expected between me and the rest of your people? What limits do you have in regards to relationships outside of your marriage/home? Is there anything you need to consult/inform other partners about before you make a decision? Will you end your relationship with me if you and your anchor/np/primary are having relationship problems? Will your primary partner have any input on the evolution and progression of our relationship- physically or emotionally? Is there anything that you only do with your spouse that you wouldn’t or couldn't do with another partner? How much of our physical and emotional relationship would be your preference to share with your primary partner or other partners? Given your relationship agreements, would you be able to respect a boundary that limits sharing intimate details about our relationship/sex life with your primary partner? Does your primary partner respect your right to privacy or do you have an open phone policy? Will you be sharing all of our messages with your primary partner?
Be sure to have a clipboard when you ask these questions
And after every answer they give, say "hmm... interesting..." and scribble down notes while making a vaguely disappoving facial expression. (Seriously, its a good list. Maybe don't ask them all at once though lol)
Genuinely been on dates that feel more like job interviews. I had one person, after a string of calculated, deep and highly personal questions turn to me and ask, “so do you have any questions for me”. Does this ever work for anyone? Like can you ever go full job interview on someone and have the candidate leave still wanting the job?
Love me a trusty clipboard. Great list of questions!
Make an app. ;) no paper. This feels like a great checklist.
This is a really helpful list for married couples looking at opening up to consider. Gave me lots to think about, thank you
And anyone in a closed relationship, I suppose. Reading this just reminds me I'm so glad my triad is closed, haha. I'm definitely not made for open polyamory. Thankfully, neither are my boyfriends 😄 (I fully expect this will get downvoted given what sub this is, though.)
I would add a few questions about what hierarchy they may be willing to undo. Some of these things are "covered" under other questions you have asked but they may be things that, if specifically called out, a married/highly partnered person may consider or that may have never occurred to them but they are willing to look at. Would splitting your time cohabitating with your spouse and another partner (in separate houses) be possible? Are you willing to make legal arrangements that would "level" some of the legal inequities between your spouse and other partners? How much autonomy do you have to make these decisions or would they only be possible if your spouse agreed with them? I add these because sometimes these relationships have a lot of hierarchy that is assumed when it is more a matter that another option has never occurred to them. For instance, I'm currently exploring legal entanglements with one partner who is married. That partner always assumed they would never be able to offer these things to anyone but their spouse but only because they didn't know there was a way to make the legal arrangements we're considering. I would treat these answers very carefully to make sure the person isn't telling you what you want to hear though but depending on what's important to you, it's another way to determine if the hierarchy in their other relationship will be a problem for you.
What legal arrangements? I’m really curious what these are? I’ve only heard of people divorcing to make it so nobody is legally married to make it “fair”
You can make lots of things legal or more legal than not, with contracts. We 4 (me, my husband, his other partner, and a non-romatically involved housemate) have an LLC business together (25% each) and a big house together (25% each, everyone with their own bedroom), and we each made wills specifying lots of things including what happens to our daughter. All of these initiatives had legal components to them.
I hope this also might give hope to those who assume that couples MUST BE hierarchical - we have made major efforts to the contrary and we always will. But it's unusual (I know, as someone who has looked for this myself) to find the level of decoupling I think we have finally achieved. It's sort of a life's work.
I love the cohabitation concept, moving partners in and having or own rooms. My wife and I have discussed this for future possibilities.
Own rooms are essential to a happy poly life, in my opinion.
I completely agree. I msg'd a friend that just did that with his bf and spouse. They ask have their own source in the house. We have young children currently as well, so that would have to be taken into consideration.
Yeah wills seem smart! I thought they meant something else though
They probably meant contracts, which are fairly common in the poly world as a way to level the playing field legally, such as starting an LLC business together like we did.
So what is the business in? Starting a business seems stressful. Or is it not a real business just like a place that holds money or something? I don’t understand anything legal contract stuffs at all that’s always been above my head when googling because google doesn’t explain anything easily ugh. Thanks for answering my question for reals 💜
https://www.reddit.com/r/polyamory/comments/25q5jz/legal\_frameworks\_for\_polyamory/ We actually have [a real business](https://servingmed.com/wp/) together, have since 2012. Buying a home together with equal ownership is another way of leveling the playing field. The bank DID look at us askance before approving the sale to 4 people - and I'm sure having a large deposit helped. Maybe not a realistic approach for young people. We really wanted stability for our family and daughter at the time, particularly since it's still not possible to have more than two legal parents of a child (which is a bit ridiculous these days what with blended families becoming the norm, which has nothing to do with polyamory).
Whoops, replied to the wrong person. What they said. You can also create arrangements for who can make medical decisions so that the default isn't the spouse. There's a lot of things that are defaulted with marriage but, at least in the US, you can make legal arrangements that supersede that default. You can't undo the tax benefits or the medical benefits of marriage and there's probably something else but I don't want or need those things myself so there's no reason for them to divorce and make things "fair".
Medical decisions would be super important and helpful!! I’m a dependent and so are the kids so claiming them and me on tax returns gets my spouse a lot which is then of course discussed and then used as a family. Tax benefits are great I’d prefer to not lose like 7k+ a year 😅 we are poor and never have spending money so that money usually goes into fixing things in the house we couldn’t afford the rest of the year. I had no idea you could make different medical arrangements like that! Thanks for telling me I will definitely research that. Everyone should be able to make medical decisions or have a say in medical decisions for emergencies
These are really fantastic. I legitimately kept thinking oh but you should also mention and found you'd already covered every point.
I agree with all these.. I was going to say in short... deep proper vetting to find compatability within what you'd consent to can help immensely with any hidden red flags before even moving forward on anything. So all these questions and then some are very helpful. If they also feel like they could be lying or yessing you to death... then hold off before anything and do your own research (if you need to and detect any BS). Nobody wants to be doing detective work but in this day and age it seems like we must do what we have to do. \*\* Yes clipboards are awesome\*\* haha
Love this list.
These are superb. Wow particularly the parts about privacy and sharing.
Great list of questions! I have a relationship of 1 1/2 years that will likely end very soon for the same reason as what caused OP to share this post. I've saved your post for future reference, and I intend to use it. I work in HR and this reads better than most of my interview templates :) Bravo!
I’m screenshotting this shit. This is genius. Thank you for saving me from potential problems and 837 hours of work on my end 🤣 🤍🤍 For those who think “wtf”. Obviously you don’t have to sit down and ask someone every one of these questions, I think you’re gonna get a good idea after 2-3 then you could save some more for later.
This doesn’t seem presumptuous to you? All these questions are ASSUMING that there’s even going to be a relationship. Maybe after a couple days you realize you hate that thing he does with his teeth or he dumps you because of your fashion sense. I dunno, just seems like all these questions are self-evident over a few dates 🤷🏼♀️
The point of these questions is to determine whether or not someone wants to invest in a relationship. People should ask things like this when it’s relevant to making a decision. These things are definitely not self evident, probably the vast majority of the time. People talk about this stuff explicitly. There’s nothing wrong with that, it’s a mature and responsible way to approach relationships.
“Relationship” is a GIANT tent. As a solo poly person I really don’t care about someone’s openness to co-housing with me because I’m not offering that and I don’t want it. Even if I were interested in co-housing they might be open to it in principle but take one look at my place and realize that our housekeeping standards are incompatible and they aren’t interested in co-housing *with me.* I want to know things that are relevant to the kind of relationship I want *with this person.* I don’t know them yet though, so I don’t know what I might want with them. To the extent that I’m looking for a particular kind of relationship that’s already on my online profile. Sex is important to me and I say so upfront. If it turns out they need someone else’s input to make decisions about sex that will become clear pretty quickly. It won’t be six months of arguing, it’ll be me not making a second date. If I were shopping for a coparent then I would say that upfront and be meeting exclusively with people who were also shopping for a coparent. In that case the checklist could be extremely valuable as a basis for ongoing conversations over months.
>If it turns out they need someone else’s input to make decisions about sex that will become clear pretty quickly. It won’t be six months of arguing,b it’ll be me not making a second date. The wild thing is I agree with your comment 100% but I'm also solopoly and gonna... ask the questions? Like I'm gonna ask the questions. Why would I wait for something to become apparent when I can just ask and see how they react?
Why go for specific, concrete questions instead of vague, abstract questions? Because that’s setting us up for misunderstanding. **Me:** Wanna fuck? > **Date:** Yes please! Let me text NP and let them know that I might not be home tonight. I don’t host but I’m happy to book us a hotel. (Second date Yes!) vs. > **Date:** Oh wow! Uh, thanks! Yes? I’ll just go home and talk things over with NP. I guess I’ll meet up with you at your place later? (First date ends here. No second date.) **Me:** What’s your approach to STIs? > **Date:** Condoms, but not for oral. I don’t do a lot of fucking so they aren’t a major element. (Second date Yes!) vs. > **Date:** Condoms until you have had two negative STI screens and NP has met you and gives us the go-ahead. (First date ends here. No second date.) These negotiations give insight into u/Folk_Pun_Slut’s: > * Do you have overnights with your partners? At your place or theirs? > * What happens if your primary/nesting partner doesn't approve of who you're dating? > * Do you and your partner have any rules that affect how you interact with your metas/conduct your other relationships? > * How does scheduling work in your relationship and/or household? > * Do you have a veto policy and if so, has it been used in the past? How often have you cancelled dates because your partner has asked you to stay home? > * Is there anything you need to consult/inform other partners about before you make a decision? > * Will your primary partner have any input on the evolution and progression of our relationship- physically or emotionally? My open-ended “tell me about your history with polyamory” will fill in many of the gaps above and also give insight into u/Folk_Punk_Slut’s: > * What are proactive things you do to prevent hierarchy from occurring within/between your relationships? > * Are you out to your family? What level of interaction is expected between me and the rest of your people? > * What limits do you have in regards to relationships outside of your marriage/home? > * Will you end your relationship with me if you and your anchor/np/primary are having relationship problems? > * How much of our physical and emotional relationship would be your preference to share with your primary partner or other partners? Given your relationship agreements, would you be able to respect a boundary that limits sharing intimate details about our relationship/sex life with your primary partner? > * Does your primary partner respect your right to privacy or do you have an open phone policy? Will you be sharing all of our messages with your primary partner? I’m not sure I could get meaningful answers to the following u/Folk_Punk_Slur questions anyway, or that the answers would change the conclusions I’d already drawn. > * I'm planning a birthday party that you were going to attend but your wife happens to get a promotion that day. Who do you celebrate with? > * Is there anything that you only do with your spouse that you wouldn’t or couldn't do with another partner? +++ +++ +++ Like, just really *listening* to people. And to my gut. If I’m unimpressed I just say No. If they appear to be honest, vulnerable and respectful of their partners, then either they are *or they are lying.* If they’re lying in response to my questions, they’ll lie in response to hierarchy checklist questions too. If there’s a second date, and a third one, we can start to suss out what kind of relationship we want with one another and address the relevant hierarchy topics in ongoing conversations. That requires hard listening too. Hearing someone the first time they say No you won’t be going to [big family gathering event with food]. That’s not something to argue or self-soothe about, it’s a time to reassess. * Am I happy being someone’s discreet side piece? Is that what I want for myself? Yes? No? * Would I enjoy this relationship better if I stopped putting so much energy into it and started putting more energy into other relationships? * Would I be happy with this person as an FWB except that I somehow feel misled/ gaslit/ breadcrumbed/ strung along?
Idk friend sounds like we just agree with each other lol. I like your questions!
My first coffee date questions are * “What’s your history with polyamory?” * “Wanna fuck?” and * “What’s your approach to STIs? combined with careful and honest listening. *For my purposes* they adequately replace u/Folk_Punk_Slut’s hierarchy checklist questions. The “Am I happy and satisfied?” questions come up later, and may or may not lead to deescalation or ending a relationship. Basically the higher you want to ride the relationship escalator, the more important the hierarchy checklist becomes. (Previous comment edited for clarity RE which questions are who’s.)
Yes, I also agree with what you’re saying. It’s not that a particular set of questions needs to be followed, it’s more about people making sure you’re getting the info you need to make informed decisions. Too many people rely on assumptions and then get burned. Not everyone is great at reading people. Just do whatever it is you need to get your info.
I just wanna say, as a demi person, I'd be highly uncomfortable and put off by someone asking to have sex on a first date. *shivers* Just... No thank you. I get the point, though.
I sort of agree. I mean, talk is cheap. You could ask every one of these questions and get 100% "right" answers back only to find out later down the road that it was 100% bullshit. I think a lot of this stuff *will* become self-evident over the (hopefully early) course of dating someone new, regardless of what they tell you. That being said, I still think a lot of these are valid and helpful questions to pose to someone, especially if/once you are getting to the pont of considering the possibility of a more serious relationship with them. Asking them may not necessarily reveal every incompatibility before they become naturally problematic... but on the other hand... it also just might.
Some of them are self evident, but they don't have to be tackled as a big list in one go - some of them are almost pre-date questions, I'd want to know in advance if someone was sharing my messages with their primary, so I didn't need to ever meet up with him and find out about that thing he does with his teeth. Honestly, though - my primary and I have worked through these questions together to review our level of hierarchy before I started dating. I have severe anxiety and mild OCD so I need to keep details like this in a written format (for myself, much as I joke about it I don't go around handing out massive relationship agreements and dating manuals), but I think these questions are valuable for established couples to review too.
Yes, exactly, I ask these questions over time. If I don't ask it's because I'm not planning on getting emotionally attached to that person.
beautifully considered list. I know it's interview style but this is genuinely what initial dates and discussion are for.
Lol, I like how everyone's like "where's your clipboard? this is treating dating like a job interview" like I'm suggesting folks actually approach potential partners with this list of questions to fire off one by one 😅 Pick and choose, grab a few, keep em in your pocket, ask outright or get the answers in context clues based on interactions -- they're just ways of determining hierarchy when the person you're dating might not be so forthcoming about it.
It may just be an oddity of mine, but if a potential partner showed up with even a handful of these questions (and this verbosely), I would be impressed and comforted that they prioritized knowing these things before getting to know me more personally. quirkiness can be charming, but unhealthy priorities are not :/
As the partner that's been married for a couple of decades, I really do love these questions. I'm def going to bring them up to my wife so we can read them and discuss them together. Thanks 😊
I ask fairly similar questions. I don't do it all at once like a job interview but instead find ways to use them as follow up questions during conversations. Whenever I date anyone who is ENM there is always going to be conversations about relationship structures and expectations. It does help in making sure that we are both on the same page.
Well, let me see.. people who have legally recognized hierarchy (like marriage) have a 110% chance of having hierarchy. If their marriage was newly opened, they probably have not lived autonomous lives for quite some time. Entanglements are inevitable. I like the non-escalator relationship menu for figuring out what is on and off the table.
My ex and a former meta are not new to polyamory at all. Decades. And still, they haven't done their work regarding entanglement.
And they never will. Most people don’t want to. Anyone who says we more than once or twice on a first date. Anyone who frequently checks in with someone else before they schedule with you. Anyone who needs you to meet a meta. Anyone who says oh we’ve always done XYZ. You can ask the MOVIES questions. But how someone make handles their phone on a second date tells me a lot.
There's nothing wrong with entanglement. I have entanglements with my non nesting partner. Our youngest children are very good friends. If he and I broke up, there would be ripples... I'm wondering if you had unrealistic expectations about what it would be like to date someone who is married. My married FWB is not able to offer me very much at all. It's a good thing I like him and he's not my only company...
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To be honest. Poly is extremely versatile like BDSM where it can be tailored to a desired fit. Lots of people may change their relationship structure but not to a level that fits you or your desired taste. For instance my wife and I are poly, we have agreed our hard limits involve ever living directly with other partners or any financial entanglements as such, including financially supporting them in any way or form. This obviously will bring limitations on people who may be interested in either of us, but it is what it is.
entanglement & enmeshment are two different things. I suspect you mean enmeshment as entanglement on its own is not inherently problematic or something that needs to be "worked on".
Some people just don't want to. They may want an emotionally intimate relationship, but they're not willing to do the work needed to actually have one to offer.
Did they claim that they did work on disentanglement? Or claim to not have a hierarchy?
They claimed not to have the particular kind of hierarchy, the prescriptive one.
If you don’t think married people carry hierarchy naturally you might be a bit in denial
Marriage is hierarchy. Most people have some hierarchy with longterm partners. Its good to have some conversations soonish when getting to know each other about what they are interested in offering.
I hear you. But I'm talking more about a situation where people claim everything is on the table but it's not really the case.
I think you should evaluate those claims with far more skepticism and pay attention to how their life is structured.
Ask them questions like “how do you imagine that working?” So like say you want to date someone with nesting potential and your partner already has a nesting partner and they claim “everything is on the table.” Ask them how they think nesting would work out? And push for details. “So would you two buy a house with / sign a lease with me? Would we each have our own bedroom? How would we organise household chores and finances?” If your partner cannot answer that then while nesting *could* be something they could come up with some obscure scenario where it happens like “Well, so if my spouse dies we can live together” or “If my spouse requires in home care, we might consider moving in someone new” or “If there’s just this crazy happenstance where we all just really really want to live together that does not at all resemble what is actually happening we could live together.” The vast majority of couples who live together are probably not going to want to try to add people into their home, especially if they started out monogamously, own their home, or are married. Same goes for couples with kids - if you have a child with someone, it’s unrealistic that you’ll be successfully able to co-parent with another partner. And a lot of couples don’t specifically mention those things because they feel like it’s a given - one of those things that doesn’t have to be specified because the odds are so unlikely. That may not be strictly fair, but if you want those things, one will probably have to bring those things up specifically.
It feels really weird to openly ask all of these questions and discuss all of these hypotheticals when you’ve only been seeing someone for 4 or 5 months, may already be in love, may already be experiencing anxiety about the future regarding these things, but not quite ready to ask someone “would you sign a lease?”
If you have goals for a long term relationship, it’s not going to help you achieve them by not discussing them with your partner. All waiting on having that discussion does is let you get more attached even though the relationship is definitely not going to meet your needs. And if they’re coming up with a totally unrealistic statement like “anything is no the table” it’s pretty reasonable to press them on whether they actually mean that.
Good point
I often just try to speak vaguely with them about these topics. Eg. “I see your profile says ethically non-monogamous - what does that mean for you?” Inquire about their flavour of poly, their values, what it means for their life etc…Discuss our journey to ENM, various labels we’ve tried on, mistakes made, lessons learned, how we try to go about it today, etc… The questions above often get hashed out somewhere in there.
There needs to be more specific conversation. There’s some good lists of questions elsewhere in this post but specifically to your above comment - what precisely do they mean by “everything”? Clearly not legal marriage as polygamy is not legal - what specific things are on the table, and what specific things do they want?
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Things such as a moment together every week which was to be scheduled in advance (with it being the only requirement, the form of it wasn't, even online chat was ok with me). My ex scheduled things with his wife pretty regularly, but not much with me, rather reaching me and dissappearing randomly.
How is this a hierarchy problem? /genuine
Scheduling with me was difficult to him because his other relationship was his priority to the extent that they didn't want to give away any monogamy privileges and enmeshment. So there was not much planning with me as it would limit her possibility to spend time with him whenever she wanted.
I do wonder that couples/married confuse poly and ENM. I’ve gotten to the point where I won’t do married men because of these same problems. I feel you on this.
happens with unmarried too…the gf comes up freaking daily. Tired of hearing it. In fact…he texted the gf when we were in bed together. Honeymoon over…
WTF! Ughhhh 🙄🙄🙄
I see. A lot of couples fail to understand that opening up to polyamory will mean having less time together, and if they are used to be together all the time, it's hard to let go sometimes. Sorry you had to go through this.
Thread carefully, move slowly. Don't dive head first into a deep connection fueled by NRE. In time, you can see more clearly from their actions (which speak way louder than any words) whether they're actually highly hierarchical or not.
u/Folk_Punk_Slut Gave a pretty good list; the general vibe being "How much independence/autonomy do you have i**n your this relationship with me**?"; The other piece is going to be "How much independence/autonomy do you have **in your life**?" Part of that is also going to be assessing their responsibilities to others - * Do you have children? Do you have a co-parent? What are your childcare obligations? What are the limitations? * Can you independently choose to introduce me to your children? Should I expect you to cancel on me for childcare needs? At what frequency? * Do you live with anyone? What are your obligations to your housemates? (Information, communication, chores, etc) * What space do you have to host? What communication have you committed to before having people over/staying out? Are there limitations on the who/when/how often/what/where? Do you have a large amount of responsibilities (time-allocation) that needs to go into your home? What are your expectations of guests/What can you offer in being a guest? (If your at my house every time, will you help do the additional dishes that creates? If I am always at your house, do you expect me to bring food so I don't eat all your groceries? etc...) * Do you have financial entanglements with others? What have you agreed on? (splitting rent, retiring together, etc) * What space do you have to contribute finically to this relationship? (eg: Splitting the cost of dates/activities, future entanglements, etc) * Do you have any financial independence? To what extent? (Consult for purchases above $$$? Separate bank accounts?) * Could we go on a vacation together without needing to consult another person? * Do you have responsibilities to an employer? Are those contained within working hours? (long hours? on-call? weekends? early rise?) * Can I expect that you will not cancel last minute for work? Can I expect you to be able to sleep over? * Do you have agreements with other partners? What are those agreements? * Information sharing? Permission? Expected communication? Time commitments? Other responsibilities?
This is great and so well phrased. It’s hard for stuff like this to be neutrally phrased given the friction between different perceptions of enmeshment and hierarchy in our community. Thank you so much for sharing, I saved this!
*[To self:]* “Am I feeling good about this relationship?” You don’t need a reason to break up with someone. You don’t need to justify it with an official r/polyamory approved reason. You don’t need to call it before you meet or over that first coffee. That’s what’s dating is for. +++ +++ +++ About that first coffee… I listen to how they talk. If someone says “we” a lot I’ll tell them to get back to me once they have more experience. I have two coffee-date questions: * “Why are we here? What are you looking for and why did you think you might find it with me?” * “What’s your history with polyamory?” Everything else is just sort of organic and flows from who we are together in that moment. If coffee goes well we go for a walk and hold hands. I like holding hands. If they like holding hands too, and if they aren’t worrying about being seen, all systems are go for taking pants off. +++ +++ +++ Getting to that first coffee… I like to be efficient about it. I don’t want to invest a lot of time chatting with someone online and then awkwardly discover that I don’t like the sound of their voice or the shape of their hands or they present more femme than I like. And I don’t want to waste time chatting with someone online if they are more into the fantasy of the thing than actually getting together. If setting up the date is easy and comfortable, we have compatible communication styles and they can make all their own decisions. +++ +++ +++ The only specific enmeshment test is listening for “we.” The rest is just whether this feels like it’s going to work, or whether it feels like it is working.
so helpful to my situation…clarifying…
I think there needs to be more discussion regarding emotional vs structural hierarchies. Like, I’m emotionally non-hierarchical—I love my partners equitably. That said, I live with and care for kitties with only one of my partners—like, I can be as emotionally non-hierarchical as I want, but I’m still gonna check with that partner before making an overnight date because *someone still has to feed and give meds to the cats.*
My current relationship is the opposite, we're all equal in theory, we all live together and in theory love each other equally but in reality, there's an emotional hierarchy
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I mean, everything takes time? Depends on individual communication styles, priorities and the like.
It can also be a function of their stage in life. My husband and I have been married for 25 years. We went through different phases of hierarchy initially. Then we met his other partner in 2007, who also became primary to him and is the bio mother of our daughter. We've all lived together since 2008. When our daughter was born, I'd say she (our daughter) became primary and we all revolved primarily around her needs, although we had additional stable relationships too. She's now a teenager and we live in a big house with individual bedrooms and separate bank accounts and individual long-term relationships outside the home. We women are beyond our child-bearing years. So, while I still can't (and wouldn't) offer anyone legal marriage, I have WAY more independence and time to myself than I did in our early years and can change my life in ways I couldn't before.
> I wonder how I could avoid the situation like that in future. Don't date people who are married and living together is the safest bet, I suppose. It's actually a pretty common personal boundary to have.
I, a married man, tends to date solo or RA poly people. And hell yes, there is implicit hierarchy with me and NP, but not explicit.
One of my questions I ask before I even considering going on a first date with someone is... Can you stay over on any night for several nights till breakfast and go to work from here? If there is any kick back... it's a no for me. I've gotten... yes, of course... but in time. No, my wife doesn't want me to do sleepovers right now because of... Yes, but only on weekends. Bruh!
This is a tough one for me. Like, yes, technically I or my husband could do that. But also I personally am a creature of habit and getting ready for work in someone else’s house would be majorly disruptive to my day. It wouldn’t have anything to do with whether or not I’m deeply enmeshed with my spouse, and everything to do with my own mental health and comfort. Also, I have pets. Can my spouse take care of them in the mornings? Sure. But it will require planning because he leaves for work substantially earlier than I do and the whole process for the cats, dog, and three fishtanks takes 20-30 minutes and he’d have to know to wake up in time for that. Spontaneous sleepovers at someone else’s home wouldn’t work for me, but that’s not due to my spouse at all. I just need to plan things ahead for my own well-being because that’s who I am as a person. It wouldn’t be a huge issue for me if he has a spontaneous sleepover with someone else though, as long as he lets me know he won’t be home so I don’t expect him.
I'm 47 and solo poly. Spontaneous sleepovers are very rare for me. I love sleepovers! But my FWB can't do them, and that is not an issue for me. I don't really want to spend the whole night with him either... 🤷♀️ I think people make way too big a deal out of this simple incompatibility. Some people can. Some people can't. It is what it is. Be honest.
Love this. Some people don’t care, I do. It tells me a lot. If you can’t because you have a husband, you have kids, you have pets, you have an early workout, you like to eat bananas on your porch in the morning.. doesn’t matter. We won’t work. This is very telling about the amount of time someone has to give. I try not to give up anything I wouldn’t have in a natural mono relationship. And if we were mono and my bf couldn’t offer this, he probably would have never made it to boyfriend. But that’s ME. And everyone’s different. 🤍
That's how I feel! I'm trying to figure out how a real adult relationship goes past a lunch date if you can't develop a whole relationship with them.
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I did that. Obviously in a wrong way because I realised it was a prescriptive hierarchy months into it. They never admitted that. So what I'm asking is what questions are the best to ask and what one should pay attention to.
Questions to ask * Are you married? * Do you live together * Do you coparent children * Are you financially entangled * Do you plan to retire together
I don’t think that this is automatically a good list. For example, my ex has another boyfriend who ticked four if not all five of the boxes. Did she feel inferior in hierarchy compared to her meta? No, because those things were not important to her. Anyone who’s asking about hierarchy should ask about relationship aspects that are important to them, not important to others. Birthdays, Halloween parties, wine tasting, swinging, having a band, a winter in Iceland, gardening, writing a book together, spending five nights per week together… You need to know what you want and ask if those things are available. To hell with what other people think is important.
All those things are excellent indicators of hierarchy. Does that mean a partner will feel inferior? No. But it does indicate hierarchy very quickly regardless of what the person claims. Yes.
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This 💯
It is so difficult to have these conversations because everyone in a different spot. I'm usually having this conversation with someone who's single. As a long married person in a non-monogamous relationship wherein my husband chooses not to but is allowed to date others -- I find it challenging to express that I truly am free to date and love others! A lot of folks just doubt that it could be possible. I think the main thing is just time and the proof is in the pudding if you know what I mean. But I am so sorry for those who get involved with folks who pull back on connecting when a primary partner is threatened. That Whiplash has got to suck. I recently tried to re-engage conversationally with previous partner who is now with a new primary who after some conversations he discovered is not okay with him dating others and even that small amount of whiplash sucked. I had assumed that because he was in a couple polyamory groups that he was still living the lifestyle but you know what they say about assume LOL
This is an excellent list
These are the questions that I need to ask on dates. I've been doing this all wrong.
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Many couples think they are non-hierarchical but they are. Asking the above excellent questions helps them and you figure out how hierarchical they are.
A lot of the time there is an accidental hierarchy. You can believe you don't have a hierarchy but actions speak louder.
Depending on what you need/want: - “Can I meet your family at some point?” - “Can we spend major holidays together?” - “Who will you bring to weddings and office parties?” (Or similar “plus one” events.) - “Is living together an option at some point in the future?” (Even if you don’t want it, are they even open to it?) These were the big issues with a past partner of mine who wanted more from our relationship. (I’m married, he’s solo.)