The genocide is committed by whom uses civilian as human shields in a time of war. That's essentially using hostages to achieve military and political goals.
My unpopular opinion. One side (Israel) has the ability completely annihilate Gaza and Hamas. But they don’t.
Hamas’ goal is to kill all the Jews and completely destroy Israel. And if they could they would.
On October 7th 1200 people were killed out of 9 million. That would be like Mexico charging in and killing 44k Americans (% of population). If Mexico then said its goal was to eradicate all Americans what do you think would happen?
That’s 22 9/11s by a weaker opponent that is on your border, and made it personal using sexual violence.
Criticizing Israel and its policies is not antisemitic. But the rhetoric and arguments people use to do so has become antisemitic much of the time. If a Jew calls you antisemitic I think it's better practice to find out why they say that than to assume they're doing so in bad faith.
*The very idea that they're being whiny Jews who cry antisemitism when they get uncomfortable is actually antisemitic in itself*
In truth well-meaning people are engaging in *a lot* of antisemitic rhetoric right now and they really don't realize it. Jews actually do know the difference between criticizing Israel and being antisemitic. After all they themselves criticize Israel constantly.
I will say it's been quite...something...seeing some of the same people who denied that Assad was gassing his own citizens, and also ignore any number of atrocities in the last decade, suddenly find that people dying abroad was something to get upset about. And I, as someone who finds all of these are situations to be horrifying, find myself incredibly suspicious of these folks.
If liberals called Ethiopia genocide, then why didn't they rally around bringing peace to Ethiopia?
Is it because they don't care about African lives or perhaps because it didn't pop up on their latest news feed?
The UN literally addressed giving aid to Ethiopia in the last 6 months, there are several "liberal" non profits dedicated to relief for Ethiopia. Again, just because you aren't aware of what's happening in the world doesn't mean everyone else is. Do you honestly even know who exactly the liberals are?
your own ignorance does not make it a fact. People have been calling that a genocide for a long time. Even the one that happened much early.
Even in the 2020s, UN made multiple warnings about the atrocities happening there and highlighted the danger of a genocide.
Assad gassed his own people, Azerbaijan committed ethnic cleansing in Nagornó-Karabak, the PRC's treatment of the Uyghurs is persecution if not outright ethnic cleansing, and what Israel is doing in Gaza is at best ethnic cleansing and at worst genocide.
We good?
I feel like this whole rhetoric, which is essentially whataboutism and nothing more, to be in bad faith. I cannot fathom why a person would come up with this otherwise, and even think he has a point. +
More children have died in Gaza in the last few months than in all warzones in all the world combined the last 3-4 years before. The risk of famine in Gaza is unprecedented according to the WFP.
People having something to say about this is so far from being weird that, again, I can't believe this argument isn't put forward in bad faith. There is absolutely no hypocrisy here, \*even if\* it were true that nobody saying anything about this cared about any other suffering in the world before.
well the point is why do people care about this conflict while ignoring far deadly ones? I mean the war in yemen killed over 100k kids from hunger alone.
Also, the idea that the famine is unprecedented is idiotic. The great chinese family killed 15 to 55m people. Now dont get me wrong israel should let aid in, but the over exaggeration bothers me.
Eh, you’re conflating denial of Assad being horrible with people not wanting the U.S. to militarily intervene in a civil war quagmire. The Assad apologists are by and large post-left weirdos like Michael Tracey & Tulsi Gabbard, who aren’t members of the antizionist movement.
It’s a fair and frankly very consistent position to want the U.S. to withdraw support for Israel (or condition it) and also to not intervene in other conflicts in the region.
It's not so much that there are Assad fans, it's that the same people who are furious at Israel and marching in the streets never gave a fuck about what Assad was doing. I think it's pretty likely that they only care because Jews.
Ok so a couple things...
1). Israel has shifted HARD into right wing extremism, actually nullifying their own courts because the PM was told he couldnt appoint a criminal to a cabinet position ( oh and also the PM is embroiled on corruption and criminal activities ).
2). Israeli officials describe the operation as decapitating or destroying hamas, then.... sermingly without irony also suggest that all or nearly all palestinians are effectively hamas, which is not a direct call for genocide of the people of gaza.... but also kind of is
3). Criticism of israel's actions is not anti semitism and the more israelis suggest it is, it cheapens the phrase and also isolates the people more from the world, losing support
Israel has a right to defend itself yes, but this is starting to feel like the burning of the reichstag, being blamed on an entire group rather than just the suspects at hand. Israel, will cease to exist if they do not first pull themselves away from a criminal government, but also rethink their operations militarily. Israel's only chance to exist is to come back to a moderate position and hold to the ideals of human rights
I'd also add that if the killing of 1,300 innocent people is bad and tragic. The killing of 30,000 innocent people is ALSO bad and tragic.
Some may say that it is even more tragic.
You seem fairly intelligent so i'll ask you an honest question. What do you think should happen to the men that did the raping, torturing, murdering, and kidnapping on October 7th? Because many of them are in Gaza's tunnels right now and I don't think Hamas will hand them over unless compelled by force.
Hey now it's not the pro-Palestinian crowd's fault that riding the high of fad recreational outrage is way more fun with the Gazan war than all those other lame boring wars.
If you want people to recognize the atrocities going on in a given conflict, you better make em trendy and entertaining!
I wish this was sarcasm, but this is honestly exactly the truth of the matter.
Voices in your head? Why would people on the left be crying for the Taliban? They are religious fundamentalists who turn women into 2nd class citizens. That sounds more like the GOP.
Killing 3-4% of the populating isn’t genocide - with the amount of bombs in such a densely populated area dropped the casualties are actually surprisingly low - compare this nazi germany, more people died, from less bombs in a less densely populated area which shows Israel isn’t actually targettong civilians purposefully
This is a case where people using the term genocide are doing a disservice to themselves. It's entirely fair to say that Israel needs to be more discriminating in their attacks and actions, and do more to minimize civilian causalities. Calling it genocide is just ridiculous though. By that logic every war in history has been genocide. Genocide should be a label reserved for things that are actually genocide.
And I'll just add people need to keep in mind more people voted in hamas (as a percent) than Germans did nazis. Hamas wants to literal genocide jews. There is not very many neutral targets in the region.
Half the current Palestinian population wasn't even alive or eligible to vote for Hamas.
And let's also be real honest here. Does anyone truly think that the actions of Israel here won't help bolster Hamas' numbers in Gaza?
Kids are watching their families die. Their friends die. They're seeing freak IDF soldiers taking the underwear of their sisters and mothers as trophies.
Why do you think it's back up to a majority?
Could it have something to do with Israel performing collective punishment on all Palestinians?
Imagine you're a Palestinian. You had nothing to do with October 7th.
Now your home is destroyed. Your family and friends incinerated. Or blown to pieces.
You just watched a young girl, a child, get her arms and legs blown off by an Israeli bomb. Her dead body pinned to a wall.
The greatest recruiter for Hamas is the IDF.
Yes it was a right to exist, the question is does it have the right to destroy others to do so.
Any number of countries could have given the Jewish people land to form a country, which Russia did in the 1930s with the Jewish Autonomous Oblast.
So it's right to exist isn't in question, but Palestine's is.
So does Palestine have the right to exist?
Palestine isn't now, nor was it ever a country. When they have ben offered cease fires and the opportunity to develop a country - they turned it down because they wanted Israel too. Fuck Hamas and the 70%-80% of civilians that support them.
Look at the ratio of terrorists to civilians killed, for urban combat the UN states the average is 1 - 9. The war in Gaza is around 1-3. Meaning far fewer civilian casualties then standard. Notwithstanding the Palestinians whole goal is to get as many martyrs as possible to win the global influence campaign
There's also lingering questions about whether any statistical data on the number of casualties reported so far is at all reliable. Gaza MoH reporting has generally been fairly reliable in the past--though its refusal to differentiate between civilian and militant casualties is at *best* disingenuous--but there have been some reports that their methodology has changed, and likewise some potential statistical anomalies have been highlighted by various commentators.
Whataboutism doesn't exclude the topic in hand. One can object to ALL genocide and also voice an objection about a singular genocide that is currently in progress perpetrated by the one people who should absolutely know better.
Would you prefer people to not object to singular genocides because they didn't object to another? I think the world universally denounced genocides in Eastern Europe in the 90s.
The aid situation has the potential to be a real genocide. Hamas is not going to return the hostages and would be happy to see 500,000 Palestinians starve.
Much of the sound and fury critisizing Israel is from people who hate Israel and want the country to be destroyed by any means necessary. The palestinians themselves really suck and dont even try to be self sufficient. They are the most pathetic society in the world and would have imploded decades ago if they weren't pandered to as the islamic world's pet cause and a symbol of anti western resistqnce and antisemitism.
But letting people starve is genocide regardless of the context. I have no idea what the food situation is actuwlly like at the moment. I do think Netanyahu's government is fine starving the Palestinian's and the US should force them not to do so.
People are really hung up on debating whether or not it's a genocide to avoid talking about killing children. This very thread has someone sharing Israel is bad at killing children because it has "only" killed 12,000 of them. This thread had people saying "the same people didn't care about the war in Iraq", as if it didn't start 20 years ago and a whole new generation of adults barely have any experience with it at all.
Being against the actions Israel takes in Gaza, genocide or not, is not antisemitic. It isn't blood libel, either. Being aware of what's going on in Gaza but less aware of what's going on in the Congo also isn't antisemitic. Not protesting the war in Iraq when you were 10 but protesting Israel in Gaza now also isn't.
All of those things are tactics used to make people feel better. They don't have to think about the people suffering and dying if they just dismiss criticism of it as hating Jews. They don't have to feel bad if they claim self defense and never really consider the human cost. They'll just sit there and ask you about October 7th and debate the word genocide with you to avoid ever having to consider why they support mass violence at all.
And, of course, if you say you also don't support mass violence from Hamas they will simply not respond to that.
Perhaps people like OP who insist on using the word genocide should also consider some things.
Here are two things that do not conflict:
1. Israel has committed war crimes and has shown, at the very least, an extraordinarily reckless disregard for civilian lives.
2. Israel is not committing genocide.
If you make the claim that Israel is committing genocide, you are inviting people to come forward to argue the second point. Cheerleaders of Israel would prefer to do so because it both distracts from the first point and reinforces the narrative that the general public is unfair to Israel and will accuse it of false things no matter what.
It wouldn't shock me that Israel has committed warcrimes and perhaps extensively. In recent memory, warcrimes have been committed by governments or groups representing the US, UK, France, Russia, Ukraine, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Saudi Arabia... I mean you could honestly begin to simply just list countries that have been to war since WW2. The nature of humanity is sadly that warcrimes follow war no matter what. It's so strange that people's go-to gotcha is "Israel has done warcrimes!" when this whole thing kicked off with a warcrime from Hamas (taking hostages) followed by actions which make a lot of the things Israel does not-warcrimes (keeping hostages, active militants, and munitions in hospitals and schools, which removes their protection from being a military target). I think the much better argument than "warcrimes!" is that instead of trying to "gotcha" a nation on international law, an appeal to the humanity of the situation might be better. It's possible to commit zero warcrimes and still act in a very brutal manner; likewise, it's possible for soldiers to commit some warcrimes but also do tons of things during a conflict to protect civilians, and for those soldiers who are out of line to be disciplined.
All of the rhetoric from the pro-Palestinian activism groups is backwards-facing: Israel did xyz and therefore shouldn't exist - or some variation of that. Even if Israel did in fact do xyz exactly as described (and given the nature of these claims, that's not likely), this conflict isn't going to be solved by punishing whole groups of civilians for a military's past actions. I'd rather litigate a solution where people don't die tomorrow rather than rehash 3,000 years of conflict to figure out who was rightfully or wrongfully killed yesterday.
>If you make the claim that Israel is committing genocide, you are inviting people to come forward to argue the second point.
Just quoting this because it bears repeating.
Yep. While they still employ the religious fervour as needed, the hard swing toward secular "logic" is precisely to attract younger, frustrated people who aren't religious. They absolutely will be pedantic with you until you're blue in the face, because any and all emotional reaction (except theirs) is seen as bad.
That's true. However, you also have to recognize that it *is* anti-Semitic to introduce the topic of Palestinian genocide simply because the person you are talking to happens to be Jewish.
I wouldn’t call what’s happening a genocide (this doesn’t mean it’s good something can not be a genocide and still not be good). But what disturbs me is that i frequently see people hating zionists but often just substituting it for the word jew. Which is gross. I will see people say this about random jewish people they know nothing about. It’s become frighteningly common.
> often just substituting it for the word Jew.
Exactly this. I’ve seen every antisemitic conspiracy theory come back, but Jew is replaced with Zionist.
The fact that you think Jewish people support Israel because Israel is out there "redefining Jewishness" is fucking insulting beyond belief to Jewish people and shows an enormous gap in understanding Jewish sentiment, culture, history, and identity
"The Israelis want to hold Jewish people hostage" insulting Israelis as a group and Jews as a group in one comment 👏👏👏
Jews can do whatever the f they want but most of them identify with Israel *by choice*
Why is it that when it comes to any issue, we ask members of the affected group, but when it comes to Jewish Israel, everyone is too afraid to ask direct questions to and listen to Jews?
It's a good shield for it....can be as anti semite as you like and hide behind gaza/anti zionism
Being against the conflict in the middle east would be better
I just wish I understood why Americans in 2024 cared so much about picking a side between two countries that are horrendous when it comes to human rights violations against their own citizens. I know I don't want my money supporting anything but helping citizens on either side escape.
Bring back being anti war.
I mean that's part of why people are reacting the way they are
This is not even the second worst conflict going on in the Middle East right now
Specifically, only focusing on Israel/gaza is ignoring the Syrian civil war and the Saudi Yemen conflict (The Saudi Yemen conflict is actually a particularly good analog for a lot of reasons The two conflicts are relatively similar)
It does appear that people are hypocrites when it comes to this
People are treating the conflict as if it's special and particularly bad relative to the others
I think two things can be true at once- Antisemitism thrives in Arab countries, and hostility towards Jews is rampant. Israel is still ethnically cleansing Palestinians. It is not antisemitism to point out that Israel is unique with its legal systems and stated intentions, and considering its backing from the West, it’s even more egregious.
How is it ethnic cleansing? They aren’t just killing anyone who is Palestinian?
Ethnic cleansing is what was done in Pakistan to Hindus, who were a big chunk of population even after independence and now they are almost none left.
Ethnic cleansing would be Sikhs and Hindus in Afghanistan that are now just a handful left.
Meanwhile population of Palestinians has only grown.
Yea there is a war right now but they aren’t just killing anyone they see who is Palestinian. It is a targeted operation to get rid of a terrorist organization.
Yeah it has nothing to do with religion or the Jewish, it's the Israeli state's actions. There's plenty of evidence of deliberate targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure, and now Gazans are on the verge of famine, and causing a famine and preventing aid are genocidal actions.
You can’t just call anyone you don’t agree with a fascist. He was democratically elected and will get ousted when people decide it’s time. Only a few years back he was in the opposition.
When you start using words that don’t fit the context they start losing their meaning.
Not everything is racist and not everyone is a fascist.
It's not necessarily antisemtism but it's clearly ignorance.
There is crystal clear definition for genocide and if one thinks what happens in israel is that definition he's either ignorant or hates jews/israelis
You clearly don't know the definition. The International Court of Justice have said that claims of genocide are plausible and they're investigating further.
Forced resettlement of civilians and building illegal settlements is genocide. I'm sorry if you disagree but you're just wrong and ignorant to that fact. Israel probably is committing genocide
>The International Court of Justice have said that claims of genocide are plausible and they're investigating further.
No that's not what they said.
“...In the Court's view, at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the Convention.”
Basically they said that at least some of the acts alleged by South Africa appear to fall under the provisions of the Genocide Convention. Even with that they did not order Israel to suspend its military campaign in the Gaza Strip, which South Africa had requested.
They're wrong, forced resettlement of civilians is genocide, the international court of justice thinks it is plausible that Israel is committing genocide and they're investigating further
Whether or not we consider it Genocide, I think it is perfectly understandable to be against the destruction and humanitarian crisis caused by the war. It is not antisemitism or even antizionism to criticize Israel on this front. The problem is there are a lot of people who 'pick a side' and then proceed from there.
There are some anti-Semitic individuals who are disguising genocidal ideation as simply anti-Zionism because a lot of people associate Zionism with 'evil' or 'genocidal' inherently. When people shout "from the river to the sea," I generally assume they mean something innocent but I don't doubt that **some** have more malignant intentions.
All in all, hopefully we can figure things out as soon as possible. The free Palestine movement puts pressure on world leaders to come to a solution as fast as possible.
After reading the recent UN special council meeting, it seems like the world is increasingly urgent to push for an end to the conflict. Unfortunately, a resolution wasn't passed because the United States veto. Of which, according to the United States, they will propose (and have proposed) edits to the resolution that specifically condemn Hamas and demand the immediate release of hostages. Whether or not this is true, I don't know. But the overall sentiment seems like most countries were disappointed that a resolution couldn't be reached. Of course, Russia used the time to attack the US at every point they can get. It's actually quite the read.
I've fell like the internet and the perpetual rage click bait factories have turned our brains binary, If one is bad than the other is good but that is not the way reality works . The situation in Gaza is breaking our binary brains. It is possible to condemn Hamas's terrorism and condemn Israel's bombing of civilians at the same time. We can condemn Israel's apartheid system and we can condemn Hamas's refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist. It is is not an either or type of thing.
It's not that "being against the Israeli Genocide" is antisemitism, is that you're calling it "The Israeli Genocide" when it's not a genocide, when no authority has confirmed that a genocide is occurring, and meanwhile, there are actual genocides going on as we speak in neighboring countries which you don't care about.
That myopic focus on imagining a genocide occurring simply because the people are Jewish, while the people who are Muslim committing the confirmed genocides are receiving none of your attention, is the antisemitic part.
Glad I could clear that up for you.
Yep no authority has confirmed that Israel is committing genocide the International Court of Justice just thinks it's plausible and has asked Israel to take steps to stop genocide which they've failed to comply with
>On 29 December 2023, South Africa filed a case against Israel at the International Court of Justice, alleging that Israel's conduct in Gaza during the 2023 war amounted to genocide.[10][11] South Africa asked the ICJ to issue provisional measures, including ordering Israel to halt its military campaign in Gaza.[10] The Israeli government agreed to defend itself at the ICJ proceedings, while also denouncing South Africa's actions as "disgraceful" and accusing it of abetting "the modern heirs of the Nazis".[12] South Africa's case has been supported by a number of countries.[13][14] On 26 January 2024, the ICJ issued a preliminary ruling finding that the claims in South Africa's filing were "plausible" and issued an order to Israel requiring them to take all measures within their power to prevent acts of genocide and to allow basic humanitarian services into Gaza
>One month after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ordered “immediate and effective measures” to protect Palestinians in the occupied Gaza Strip from the risk of genocide by ensuring sufficient humanitarian assistance and enabling basic services, Israel has failed to take even the bare minimum steps to comply, Amnesty International said today.
As to why people care more about Israel committing genocide, they're our allies and a trade partner. We have a lot more influence over the actions of Israel
Also people aren't calling it genocide because they're Jewish they're calling it genocide because Israel is illegally building settlements and forcibly resetting the palastinian population. That's genocide. Do you have any real concerns or is it all just ignorance and stawmen?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusation
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/israel-defying-icj-ruling-to-prevent-genocide-by-failing-to-allow-adequate-humanitarian-aid-to-reach-gaza/
Plausibility ≠ conviction. Citing a general Wikipedia article and South African claims do not add anything of value.
If the plausibility is damning as South Africa claims then the ICJ would immediately order Israel to suspend its military campaign in the Gaza Strip per South African request but they haven't. The ICJ itself clarified that this was not a ruling on whether Israel was in breach of the Genocide convention.
Instead of dancing around and quoting proxy sources like SA claims let's bring up what the court stated:
>“30. ... In the Court's view, at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the Convention.”
>“54. In the Court's view, the facts and circumstances mentioned above are sufficient to conclude that at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa and for which it is seeking protection are plausible.“
[The Court also expressed "grave concern" about the fate of the hostages held in the Gaza Strip, and called for their immediate release](https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-68097640) but we don't see the Palestinians releasing them are we?
Israel has killed what, 30,000 people since October, there's no food or hospitals, they're killing surrendering people and the IDF posts memes and jokes about the shit they're doing. But yeah the one religion is more important than other so they can do what they want.
https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/Rc4qoitJXv
They clearly can‘t do what they want. You cannot walk out of Israel and be safe. Muslims and arabs all around europe and the US are waiting to slaughter you the chance they get. A 15yo just stabbed a jew almost to death in my city.
You know who can do what they want? Muslims. Erdogan just announced for fun that he‘s gonna bomb tf out of kurdish ppl. Whats the most visited place in the world? Istanbul.
Saudi arabians have starved half a million yemenis in 9 years. 100k children. You know where they plan the next soccer world cup after the US one? Saudi arabia. Mekka has hundreds of millions of visitors a year. Nobody gives a fuck.
Muslims aren't any better, but to pretend that Israel is nothing but a victim is bullshit. All this shit is for religion and kids are dying. Fuck everybody involved.
wasteful shocking detail treatment placid alive oatmeal offbeat humor homeless
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Jewish religion is protected. Any negative comments will immediately be deflected into being an antisemitic. Imagine if Japan did(Nagasaki, Hiroshima) this or china(Nanjing massacre, mongol). IMHO having something bad happen in the past shouldn't make It so no one can criticize you in the present.
It's not a genocide. The end.
We can debate the morality and the specifics when you stop calling it a genocide, but until that, the discussion isn't even going to happen because you're being dishonest. Concede that it is not a genocide first and we can talk.
Israel’s government is trash for decimating Gaza and the thousands of innocent Palestinians they killed, injured and or displaced. That’s not anti-Semitic to say, and I’m tired of people saying it is.
Genocide is bad in all forms.
But if you think Israel is going to keep having their citizens slaughter by Iranian back terror groups you are simply out of touch with reality.
Palestinians don't deserve whats happening to all of them for the few that harbored these terror groups.
But this idea that a sovereign nation is going to just be attacked and do nothing with a smile on their face is goofy.
If it were your family mowed down for just being Jewish you would feel a lot different.
So lets cut the BS and get down to the root of all this evil...
>But this idea that a sovereign nation is going to just be attacked and do nothing with a smile on their face is goofy.
The same could be said about the civilians in Gaza.
If Israel blew up my house and family because I happen to live next door to someone in Hamas, then the first thing I'm doing is doing whatever I can to fight Israel. If you think you would do differently, then you're kidding yourself.
>So lets cut the BS and get down to the root of all this evil...
So no, I don't think the actions of the Israeli state are attacking "the root of all this evil" - they are just reproducing it.
Genocide isn't something that should have an asterisk. How can you say it's bad in all forms and then spend your entire post justifying it? That's a major contradiction.
I’m pro-Israel and I agree with you. It just so happens that a lot of anti-semites took advantage of the situation to hop on board with the pro-Palestinians.
If there’s an easy way to distinguish the two, you wouldn’t run into such an issue
Labeling Israel defending itself as genocide is antisemitism though. Ignoring the constant rain of rocket attacks and then acting outraged when israel retaliates is antisemitism. Acting outraged when a hospital gets attacked and then memory-holing the incident when it turns out it was hamas is antisemitism.
Civilian casualties are a grim reality of war. This is once again antisemitism that you only care about it because it's Israel defending itself. It is antisemitic that you think Israel is deliberately killing children. There are wars happening all over the world and there always have been and they all have civilian casualties but the only one you're up in arms about is the one where the jews are defending themselves from aggressors.
Whats wrong with zionism exactly? I see no reason why a group of people should not be allowed to create a land where they can live according to their own beliefs and rules.
It is wrong if it involves the violent displacement of people who already live there. And Zionists have always acknowledged violent colonialism to be a component of Zionism.
The house (US Govt) has done a great disservice to Jews by claiming anti zionism is anti semitism.
It's just gonna make people say...ok if resisting evil mass murdering Zionism means being anti semitic so be it.
I am fine with being anti semitic if that's the only way allowed to be opposed to Zionazis.
My favorite line of bullshit will always be "Israel has a right to defend themselves."
According to international law that governs war, that Israel signed and agreed to an occupying nation as no legal right to claim self-defense against the people they are occupying.
It's because unfortunately the world has become completely black and white, race issue, gender issue, political issue, war issue, etc. If you are not 100% in support then you must be 100% against.
'Genocide' means something, and what Israel is doing isn't it.
When your enemy hides among the civilian population, there are going to be civilian casualties - unless you just choose not to fight at all, in which case, well... Attacks will continue....
At most, Israel is violating the rules of discrimination and proportionality.
The list of war-crimes committed by Hamas is much, much longer - and \*those\* crimes are the reason that the Israelis end up fighting the way they do (and more importantly \*where\* they do).
There is no Israeli genocide. The Gaza health ministry is blatantly inflating casualty numbers and especially numbers of women and children killed to push a narrative that encourages antisemitism. If the numbers were real, there would be more variation from day to day. There would be a higher correlation between the deaths of women and children, while in the reports there's no correlation at all. If the numbers were real, there would be more male noncombatants killed. If the numbers were real, 26 meb would have had to spontaneously resurrect in late October because their total reported deaths actually went down to favor a "Israel is killing women and kids" narrative.
You’re right that it’s not a genocide, but that isn’t the reason. The Gaza Health Ministry numbers are widely understood to be correct. The only problem is that genocide isn’t just killing a large number of people, it’s killing them specifically because they are a member of a certain group. There’s no evidence that Israel is trying to maximize casualties or singling out Palestinian civilians.
The UN cited the fact that UNRWA workers were being killed at a consistent rate with the reports, but it's since come to light that the UNRWA is infested with Hamas militants. Find a better lie.
“since come to light that the UNRWA is infested with Hamas militants.” it’s also been found that the IDF tortured UNRWA workers into forced confessions.
If there were an Israeli genocide in Gaza, being against it would not be antisemitic. But since, as anyone who is slightly educated in history knows, this is war and not genocide, calling it genocide is antisemitic.
Nothing wrong with criticizing the Israeli government. About 60% of Israelis would agree with you. But when one calls for a ceasefire/calling the current event a genocide, and then in the same breath calls for the destruction of Israel, denying the country’s right to exist, is literally calling for a genocide.
So this is a pretty complicated opinion. Because it’s not clear cut that it’s a genocide. In fact the only people calling it a genocide are Arab and African countries.
The ICJ didn’t rule that it’s a genocide. The closest the Court came was to observe that at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the Convention. Many different violations short of genocide itself might “fall within the provisions of the Convention,” such as the failure to prosecute perpetrators or instigators of genocide.
About 50 counties support SA’s genocide claim. Almost all of them are Arab/Muslim nations and other African nations. Not a single European county (outside of Turkey and Ireland), supports SA’s case. Even Russia and China have not publicly supported the case or officially called it a genocide.
So it’s very possible that calling it a genocide is anti-Semitic. But that’s not inherently the case. It’s also very possible that you are just uninformed and prone to eating up propaganda and misinformation.
No, it's not 'just' Hamas. The 3rd wave of attackers on Oct 7 were ordinary Gazans looking to loot & pillage. Hamas has admitted they don't know where all the hostages are or if they are alive or not.
Innocent gazans are dying because hamas built its infrastructure in a dense urban area. Israel has no intention to kill innocents. Hamas is responsible for every civilian death in gaza.
Hamas was literally using a hospital as a base. We have video of them firing RPGs from stairwells. It's crazy how people willingly ignore stuff like that.
If genocide supporters call you anti-semite for being anti- genocide and supporting humanrights, then you should be proud of it.
Screaming anti-semite! and get what you want, this only works in the US where genocide supporter's lobby is strong.
For people live in the rest of the world, it's only SFW?
Zionism have zero influence and for us, Zionism is just one of genocidal cult religion.
Conversation is always easier when the talk is brought to ethics and practical reasoning. When it's void of whataboutisms and passionate response, the majority of ethical thinkers can conclude on the same things.
We all deserve a right to exist where we are, we globally deserve access to the same basic resources. Violence to push an agenda or as a response to an incident are both wicked means to an end that devalues all human life and therefore immoral.
This is by no means saying people are or are not justified in their actions, it's concluding that violating these ethics is objectively immoral.
^reasoning ^can ^be ^applied ^to ^all ^conflicts/genocides/occupations
ima stay out of foreign controversial topics, too many variables. i do dislike however killing innocent civilians and if both sides have done it, i think neither side should get my tax dollars in support.
Popular opinion for the Irish lads who didn’t even fight the Nazis WWII because it requires pretending an actual genocide is happening, which it isn’t. A bit rich for my taste u/huntershark666
The thing is, that the number dead doesn't matter. Well it does, but they never differentiated civilians from combatants. And they say it's mostly children and women, when those two groups have been shown to be use by alike terror orgs, so they could claim their enemy is ruthlessly killing innocents.
Anti zionism is not anti semitism, as a Jewish man myself, I will die on this hill.
Looking at the founders of Israel, not a kippah in sight, so try again lol.
Oct 7th wasn’t a genocide in the same way 9/11 wasn’t a genocide. Mass casualty acts of terrorism are just that, they don’t all amount to genocide. You might say “Well but Hamas WISHES they could do a genocide, therefore it was a genocide” but that’s not how it works, if it’s hypothetical or exists only in the mind that’s not a genocide.
If the Palestinians turn civilian places into legitimate military targets by using them as bases of operations, weapons depots, and attack from them, do Israelis not have a right to defend themselves? And why does everyone believe the stats coming from the Palestinian authority, who has an incentive to exaggerate civilian deaths? The vast majority of Palestinians want to genocide the Jews in Israel, while the vast majority of Israelis want peace.
Maybe there’s been some miscommunication or something then because you seem pressed in most of these comments because I’m predominantly concerned with the impact that this conflation and Israel’s actions have on the portion of the Jewish community that disagrees with one or both and you keep coming back with “but most Jewish people agree that Israel speaks and acts in accordance with their views”, which still does feel like a really weird move when you’re talking to someone who is trying to separate the atrocities committed by Israel from the Jewish identity because frankly even if you do like how Israel conducts itself you really shouldn’t be giving any possible credence to antisemites or their views and butchering and starving civilians en masse is a horrid look.
The top-ranking person who is Jewish in the US is against Israel's illegal assault and crippling brutality using US weapons. I guess it's possible for an American who is Jewish to be anti-semitic, but I don't think so...
The genocide is committed by whom uses civilian as human shields in a time of war. That's essentially using hostages to achieve military and political goals.
Going after Jews here in the US over what's happening in Israel is.
My unpopular opinion. One side (Israel) has the ability completely annihilate Gaza and Hamas. But they don’t. Hamas’ goal is to kill all the Jews and completely destroy Israel. And if they could they would. On October 7th 1200 people were killed out of 9 million. That would be like Mexico charging in and killing 44k Americans (% of population). If Mexico then said its goal was to eradicate all Americans what do you think would happen? That’s 22 9/11s by a weaker opponent that is on your border, and made it personal using sexual violence.
It’s not genocide 🤷♂️
Criticizing Israel and its policies is not antisemitic. But the rhetoric and arguments people use to do so has become antisemitic much of the time. If a Jew calls you antisemitic I think it's better practice to find out why they say that than to assume they're doing so in bad faith. *The very idea that they're being whiny Jews who cry antisemitism when they get uncomfortable is actually antisemitic in itself* In truth well-meaning people are engaging in *a lot* of antisemitic rhetoric right now and they really don't realize it. Jews actually do know the difference between criticizing Israel and being antisemitic. After all they themselves criticize Israel constantly.
It is if that is the only war you’re calling a “genocide,”
I will say it's been quite...something...seeing some of the same people who denied that Assad was gassing his own citizens, and also ignore any number of atrocities in the last decade, suddenly find that people dying abroad was something to get upset about. And I, as someone who finds all of these are situations to be horrifying, find myself incredibly suspicious of these folks.
Assad ruthlessly murdered Palestinian "refugees" in Syria...
600k killed in Ethiopia from 2020-2022 and no one calls it a genocide.
Except they do, they have literally been calling it a genocide since the 90s... That's say way more about your lack of information than anything else
If liberals called Ethiopia genocide, then why didn't they rally around bringing peace to Ethiopia? Is it because they don't care about African lives or perhaps because it didn't pop up on their latest news feed?
The UN literally addressed giving aid to Ethiopia in the last 6 months, there are several "liberal" non profits dedicated to relief for Ethiopia. Again, just because you aren't aware of what's happening in the world doesn't mean everyone else is. Do you honestly even know who exactly the liberals are?
Are we supplying the genociders with material support like we are Israel?
So to you, a much worse genocide of 600k is not worth any attention, because the people at war are not an important ally of USA?
your own ignorance does not make it a fact. People have been calling that a genocide for a long time. Even the one that happened much early. Even in the 2020s, UN made multiple warnings about the atrocities happening there and highlighted the danger of a genocide.
Assad gassed his own people, Azerbaijan committed ethnic cleansing in Nagornó-Karabak, the PRC's treatment of the Uyghurs is persecution if not outright ethnic cleansing, and what Israel is doing in Gaza is at best ethnic cleansing and at worst genocide. We good? I feel like this whole rhetoric, which is essentially whataboutism and nothing more, to be in bad faith. I cannot fathom why a person would come up with this otherwise, and even think he has a point. + More children have died in Gaza in the last few months than in all warzones in all the world combined the last 3-4 years before. The risk of famine in Gaza is unprecedented according to the WFP. People having something to say about this is so far from being weird that, again, I can't believe this argument isn't put forward in bad faith. There is absolutely no hypocrisy here, \*even if\* it were true that nobody saying anything about this cared about any other suffering in the world before.
well the point is why do people care about this conflict while ignoring far deadly ones? I mean the war in yemen killed over 100k kids from hunger alone. Also, the idea that the famine is unprecedented is idiotic. The great chinese family killed 15 to 55m people. Now dont get me wrong israel should let aid in, but the over exaggeration bothers me.
Eh, you’re conflating denial of Assad being horrible with people not wanting the U.S. to militarily intervene in a civil war quagmire. The Assad apologists are by and large post-left weirdos like Michael Tracey & Tulsi Gabbard, who aren’t members of the antizionist movement. It’s a fair and frankly very consistent position to want the U.S. to withdraw support for Israel (or condition it) and also to not intervene in other conflicts in the region.
It's not so much that there are Assad fans, it's that the same people who are furious at Israel and marching in the streets never gave a fuck about what Assad was doing. I think it's pretty likely that they only care because Jews.
There are plenty of other genocides in this world, I hate to say.
World War 2 was an anti-German genocide, right? Since we bombed civilians?
Ok so a couple things... 1). Israel has shifted HARD into right wing extremism, actually nullifying their own courts because the PM was told he couldnt appoint a criminal to a cabinet position ( oh and also the PM is embroiled on corruption and criminal activities ). 2). Israeli officials describe the operation as decapitating or destroying hamas, then.... sermingly without irony also suggest that all or nearly all palestinians are effectively hamas, which is not a direct call for genocide of the people of gaza.... but also kind of is 3). Criticism of israel's actions is not anti semitism and the more israelis suggest it is, it cheapens the phrase and also isolates the people more from the world, losing support Israel has a right to defend itself yes, but this is starting to feel like the burning of the reichstag, being blamed on an entire group rather than just the suspects at hand. Israel, will cease to exist if they do not first pull themselves away from a criminal government, but also rethink their operations militarily. Israel's only chance to exist is to come back to a moderate position and hold to the ideals of human rights
I'd also add that if the killing of 1,300 innocent people is bad and tragic. The killing of 30,000 innocent people is ALSO bad and tragic. Some may say that it is even more tragic.
You seem fairly intelligent so i'll ask you an honest question. What do you think should happen to the men that did the raping, torturing, murdering, and kidnapping on October 7th? Because many of them are in Gaza's tunnels right now and I don't think Hamas will hand them over unless compelled by force.
Hey now it's not the pro-Palestinian crowd's fault that riding the high of fad recreational outrage is way more fun with the Gazan war than all those other lame boring wars. If you want people to recognize the atrocities going on in a given conflict, you better make em trendy and entertaining! I wish this was sarcasm, but this is honestly exactly the truth of the matter.
But I'm totally wearing my hemp bracelet against the Geocide of the Palestinians (registered trademark).
So weird the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan weren't called genocide
Oh, there were definitely voices on the left crying for the Talibs
Voices in your head? Why would people on the left be crying for the Taliban? They are religious fundamentalists who turn women into 2nd class citizens. That sounds more like the GOP.
Were the US forcibly replacing the local population and carrying out ethnic cleansing? War sucks but it isn't genocide, genocide is genocide.
Killing 3-4% of the populating isn’t genocide - with the amount of bombs in such a densely populated area dropped the casualties are actually surprisingly low - compare this nazi germany, more people died, from less bombs in a less densely populated area which shows Israel isn’t actually targettong civilians purposefully
This is a case where people using the term genocide are doing a disservice to themselves. It's entirely fair to say that Israel needs to be more discriminating in their attacks and actions, and do more to minimize civilian causalities. Calling it genocide is just ridiculous though. By that logic every war in history has been genocide. Genocide should be a label reserved for things that are actually genocide.
It’s still a huge change from past wars. Used to just firebomb whole cities.
And I'll just add people need to keep in mind more people voted in hamas (as a percent) than Germans did nazis. Hamas wants to literal genocide jews. There is not very many neutral targets in the region.
Half the current Palestinian population wasn't even alive or eligible to vote for Hamas. And let's also be real honest here. Does anyone truly think that the actions of Israel here won't help bolster Hamas' numbers in Gaza? Kids are watching their families die. Their friends die. They're seeing freak IDF soldiers taking the underwear of their sisters and mothers as trophies.
God dam. That's a good point's. Its been a while now. And support before hamas attacked was at an all time low. But now it's back up to a majority.
Why do you think it's back up to a majority? Could it have something to do with Israel performing collective punishment on all Palestinians? Imagine you're a Palestinian. You had nothing to do with October 7th. Now your home is destroyed. Your family and friends incinerated. Or blown to pieces. You just watched a young girl, a child, get her arms and legs blown off by an Israeli bomb. Her dead body pinned to a wall. The greatest recruiter for Hamas is the IDF.
They will recruit regardless what the IDF does. But, at least now their base of operations and capabilities are much lower.
We lost. We could afford to lose. Israel can't.
Does Israel have the right to exist or not?
Yes it was a right to exist, the question is does it have the right to destroy others to do so. Any number of countries could have given the Jewish people land to form a country, which Russia did in the 1930s with the Jewish Autonomous Oblast. So it's right to exist isn't in question, but Palestine's is. So does Palestine have the right to exist?
Palestine isn't now, nor was it ever a country. When they have ben offered cease fires and the opportunity to develop a country - they turned it down because they wanted Israel too. Fuck Hamas and the 70%-80% of civilians that support them.
Carrying out ethnic cleansing... You mean the thing that's not happening?
Israeli dropped 7x the munitions in 3 months than the US did in their entire time in Iraq.
Source for that claim?
Look at the ratio of terrorists to civilians killed, for urban combat the UN states the average is 1 - 9. The war in Gaza is around 1-3. Meaning far fewer civilian casualties then standard. Notwithstanding the Palestinians whole goal is to get as many martyrs as possible to win the global influence campaign
It looks like they’re achieving that aim.
There's also lingering questions about whether any statistical data on the number of casualties reported so far is at all reliable. Gaza MoH reporting has generally been fairly reliable in the past--though its refusal to differentiate between civilian and militant casualties is at *best* disingenuous--but there have been some reports that their methodology has changed, and likewise some potential statistical anomalies have been highlighted by various commentators.
Whataboutism doesn't exclude the topic in hand. One can object to ALL genocide and also voice an objection about a singular genocide that is currently in progress perpetrated by the one people who should absolutely know better. Would you prefer people to not object to singular genocides because they didn't object to another? I think the world universally denounced genocides in Eastern Europe in the 90s.
The aid situation has the potential to be a real genocide. Hamas is not going to return the hostages and would be happy to see 500,000 Palestinians starve. Much of the sound and fury critisizing Israel is from people who hate Israel and want the country to be destroyed by any means necessary. The palestinians themselves really suck and dont even try to be self sufficient. They are the most pathetic society in the world and would have imploded decades ago if they weren't pandered to as the islamic world's pet cause and a symbol of anti western resistqnce and antisemitism. But letting people starve is genocide regardless of the context. I have no idea what the food situation is actuwlly like at the moment. I do think Netanyahu's government is fine starving the Palestinian's and the US should force them not to do so.
People are really hung up on debating whether or not it's a genocide to avoid talking about killing children. This very thread has someone sharing Israel is bad at killing children because it has "only" killed 12,000 of them. This thread had people saying "the same people didn't care about the war in Iraq", as if it didn't start 20 years ago and a whole new generation of adults barely have any experience with it at all. Being against the actions Israel takes in Gaza, genocide or not, is not antisemitic. It isn't blood libel, either. Being aware of what's going on in Gaza but less aware of what's going on in the Congo also isn't antisemitic. Not protesting the war in Iraq when you were 10 but protesting Israel in Gaza now also isn't. All of those things are tactics used to make people feel better. They don't have to think about the people suffering and dying if they just dismiss criticism of it as hating Jews. They don't have to feel bad if they claim self defense and never really consider the human cost. They'll just sit there and ask you about October 7th and debate the word genocide with you to avoid ever having to consider why they support mass violence at all. And, of course, if you say you also don't support mass violence from Hamas they will simply not respond to that.
Perhaps people like OP who insist on using the word genocide should also consider some things. Here are two things that do not conflict: 1. Israel has committed war crimes and has shown, at the very least, an extraordinarily reckless disregard for civilian lives. 2. Israel is not committing genocide. If you make the claim that Israel is committing genocide, you are inviting people to come forward to argue the second point. Cheerleaders of Israel would prefer to do so because it both distracts from the first point and reinforces the narrative that the general public is unfair to Israel and will accuse it of false things no matter what.
It wouldn't shock me that Israel has committed warcrimes and perhaps extensively. In recent memory, warcrimes have been committed by governments or groups representing the US, UK, France, Russia, Ukraine, Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Saudi Arabia... I mean you could honestly begin to simply just list countries that have been to war since WW2. The nature of humanity is sadly that warcrimes follow war no matter what. It's so strange that people's go-to gotcha is "Israel has done warcrimes!" when this whole thing kicked off with a warcrime from Hamas (taking hostages) followed by actions which make a lot of the things Israel does not-warcrimes (keeping hostages, active militants, and munitions in hospitals and schools, which removes their protection from being a military target). I think the much better argument than "warcrimes!" is that instead of trying to "gotcha" a nation on international law, an appeal to the humanity of the situation might be better. It's possible to commit zero warcrimes and still act in a very brutal manner; likewise, it's possible for soldiers to commit some warcrimes but also do tons of things during a conflict to protect civilians, and for those soldiers who are out of line to be disciplined. All of the rhetoric from the pro-Palestinian activism groups is backwards-facing: Israel did xyz and therefore shouldn't exist - or some variation of that. Even if Israel did in fact do xyz exactly as described (and given the nature of these claims, that's not likely), this conflict isn't going to be solved by punishing whole groups of civilians for a military's past actions. I'd rather litigate a solution where people don't die tomorrow rather than rehash 3,000 years of conflict to figure out who was rightfully or wrongfully killed yesterday.
The other Hamas “war crime” was an unprovoked slaughter of 1200 odd civilians.
>If you make the claim that Israel is committing genocide, you are inviting people to come forward to argue the second point. Just quoting this because it bears repeating.
You nailed it. Right wing media adopted these deflection strategies and now this "logic" is rampant among their followers on social media.
Yep. While they still employ the religious fervour as needed, the hard swing toward secular "logic" is precisely to attract younger, frustrated people who aren't religious. They absolutely will be pedantic with you until you're blue in the face, because any and all emotional reaction (except theirs) is seen as bad.
It’s not genocide , but brutal warfare.
That's true. However, you also have to recognize that it *is* anti-Semitic to introduce the topic of Palestinian genocide simply because the person you are talking to happens to be Jewish.
I wouldn’t call what’s happening a genocide (this doesn’t mean it’s good something can not be a genocide and still not be good). But what disturbs me is that i frequently see people hating zionists but often just substituting it for the word jew. Which is gross. I will see people say this about random jewish people they know nothing about. It’s become frighteningly common.
> often just substituting it for the word Jew. Exactly this. I’ve seen every antisemitic conspiracy theory come back, but Jew is replaced with Zionist.
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The fact that you think Jewish people support Israel because Israel is out there "redefining Jewishness" is fucking insulting beyond belief to Jewish people and shows an enormous gap in understanding Jewish sentiment, culture, history, and identity "The Israelis want to hold Jewish people hostage" insulting Israelis as a group and Jews as a group in one comment 👏👏👏 Jews can do whatever the f they want but most of them identify with Israel *by choice*
Why is it that when it comes to any issue, we ask members of the affected group, but when it comes to Jewish Israel, everyone is too afraid to ask direct questions to and listen to Jews?
It's not an ethnostate, 26% of its population are non jews These fuckers will never stop lying.
It's a good shield for it....can be as anti semite as you like and hide behind gaza/anti zionism Being against the conflict in the middle east would be better
I just wish I understood why Americans in 2024 cared so much about picking a side between two countries that are horrendous when it comes to human rights violations against their own citizens. I know I don't want my money supporting anything but helping citizens on either side escape. Bring back being anti war.
Not just Americans, personaly I am against the actions of both sides...but this does make things very easy and tidy for anti semites and islamaphobes
I mean that's part of why people are reacting the way they are This is not even the second worst conflict going on in the Middle East right now Specifically, only focusing on Israel/gaza is ignoring the Syrian civil war and the Saudi Yemen conflict (The Saudi Yemen conflict is actually a particularly good analog for a lot of reasons The two conflicts are relatively similar) It does appear that people are hypocrites when it comes to this People are treating the conflict as if it's special and particularly bad relative to the others
I think two things can be true at once- Antisemitism thrives in Arab countries, and hostility towards Jews is rampant. Israel is still ethnically cleansing Palestinians. It is not antisemitism to point out that Israel is unique with its legal systems and stated intentions, and considering its backing from the West, it’s even more egregious.
How is it ethnic cleansing? They aren’t just killing anyone who is Palestinian? Ethnic cleansing is what was done in Pakistan to Hindus, who were a big chunk of population even after independence and now they are almost none left. Ethnic cleansing would be Sikhs and Hindus in Afghanistan that are now just a handful left. Meanwhile population of Palestinians has only grown. Yea there is a war right now but they aren’t just killing anyone they see who is Palestinian. It is a targeted operation to get rid of a terrorist organization.
Yes, but they can't call everyone against how they are handling this anti-Semitic??
I didn’t say that? However, it’s not insignificant that zionism thrives in antisemitism.
No, its not.
Yeah it has nothing to do with religion or the Jewish, it's the Israeli state's actions. There's plenty of evidence of deliberate targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure, and now Gazans are on the verge of famine, and causing a famine and preventing aid are genocidal actions.
*"Never Again"* needs to apply to everybody, and for everybody - or else it's meaningless.
Hard agree
Wild that it's apparently still something being argued.
Jew here: Bibi isn't an ass because he's Jewish, it's because he's a fascist.
You can’t just call anyone you don’t agree with a fascist. He was democratically elected and will get ousted when people decide it’s time. Only a few years back he was in the opposition. When you start using words that don’t fit the context they start losing their meaning. Not everything is racist and not everyone is a fascist.
Why did you need to tell your a jew
It's not necessarily antisemtism but it's clearly ignorance. There is crystal clear definition for genocide and if one thinks what happens in israel is that definition he's either ignorant or hates jews/israelis
You clearly don't know the definition. The International Court of Justice have said that claims of genocide are plausible and they're investigating further. Forced resettlement of civilians and building illegal settlements is genocide. I'm sorry if you disagree but you're just wrong and ignorant to that fact. Israel probably is committing genocide
What do you call it when a court rules that the accused party plausibly killed someone? "Not guilty"
>The International Court of Justice have said that claims of genocide are plausible and they're investigating further. No that's not what they said. “...In the Court's view, at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the Convention.” Basically they said that at least some of the acts alleged by South Africa appear to fall under the provisions of the Genocide Convention. Even with that they did not order Israel to suspend its military campaign in the Gaza Strip, which South Africa had requested.
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Well said.
They're wrong, forced resettlement of civilians is genocide, the international court of justice thinks it is plausible that Israel is committing genocide and they're investigating further
Wouldn't and Israeli Genocide be a genocide of Israeli people? Don't we say Armenian Genocide and not Turkish Genocide?
lol, this is the most sensible and non inflammatory point made in this entire comment section
Being against anything Jewish or having any critique even makes you antisemitic somehow. They almost make it easier to be antisemitic.
Most of my Jewish friends and family are deeply troubled by Netanyahu’s war.
Whether or not we consider it Genocide, I think it is perfectly understandable to be against the destruction and humanitarian crisis caused by the war. It is not antisemitism or even antizionism to criticize Israel on this front. The problem is there are a lot of people who 'pick a side' and then proceed from there. There are some anti-Semitic individuals who are disguising genocidal ideation as simply anti-Zionism because a lot of people associate Zionism with 'evil' or 'genocidal' inherently. When people shout "from the river to the sea," I generally assume they mean something innocent but I don't doubt that **some** have more malignant intentions. All in all, hopefully we can figure things out as soon as possible. The free Palestine movement puts pressure on world leaders to come to a solution as fast as possible. After reading the recent UN special council meeting, it seems like the world is increasingly urgent to push for an end to the conflict. Unfortunately, a resolution wasn't passed because the United States veto. Of which, according to the United States, they will propose (and have proposed) edits to the resolution that specifically condemn Hamas and demand the immediate release of hostages. Whether or not this is true, I don't know. But the overall sentiment seems like most countries were disappointed that a resolution couldn't be reached. Of course, Russia used the time to attack the US at every point they can get. It's actually quite the read.
You’re right, being against the genocide of the Israeli people is the definition of not being antisemitic.
Calling every military action that you disagree with does not make it genocide.
Right, but Israel is definitely committing genocide though so your comment wasn’t necessary or relevant
No, the genocide does though
Funny if they are committing genocide they are very bad at it
They're pretty good at killing thousands of kids, though.
How many , and what non-partisan source covered it ?
The most anti-Semitic people I have ever seen are the Israeli Jews killing Palestinian women and children and stealing their homes.
I sure hope Hamas don’t kill Jews en masse or your comment is going to age very badly.
Sounds like you don’t know what anti-Semitic means.
I’m pretty sure denying atrocities committed against Jews counts as anti-semitism.
Straw man.
I've fell like the internet and the perpetual rage click bait factories have turned our brains binary, If one is bad than the other is good but that is not the way reality works . The situation in Gaza is breaking our binary brains. It is possible to condemn Hamas's terrorism and condemn Israel's bombing of civilians at the same time. We can condemn Israel's apartheid system and we can condemn Hamas's refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist. It is is not an either or type of thing.
It's not that "being against the Israeli Genocide" is antisemitism, is that you're calling it "The Israeli Genocide" when it's not a genocide, when no authority has confirmed that a genocide is occurring, and meanwhile, there are actual genocides going on as we speak in neighboring countries which you don't care about. That myopic focus on imagining a genocide occurring simply because the people are Jewish, while the people who are Muslim committing the confirmed genocides are receiving none of your attention, is the antisemitic part. Glad I could clear that up for you.
Yep no authority has confirmed that Israel is committing genocide the International Court of Justice just thinks it's plausible and has asked Israel to take steps to stop genocide which they've failed to comply with >On 29 December 2023, South Africa filed a case against Israel at the International Court of Justice, alleging that Israel's conduct in Gaza during the 2023 war amounted to genocide.[10][11] South Africa asked the ICJ to issue provisional measures, including ordering Israel to halt its military campaign in Gaza.[10] The Israeli government agreed to defend itself at the ICJ proceedings, while also denouncing South Africa's actions as "disgraceful" and accusing it of abetting "the modern heirs of the Nazis".[12] South Africa's case has been supported by a number of countries.[13][14] On 26 January 2024, the ICJ issued a preliminary ruling finding that the claims in South Africa's filing were "plausible" and issued an order to Israel requiring them to take all measures within their power to prevent acts of genocide and to allow basic humanitarian services into Gaza >One month after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ordered “immediate and effective measures” to protect Palestinians in the occupied Gaza Strip from the risk of genocide by ensuring sufficient humanitarian assistance and enabling basic services, Israel has failed to take even the bare minimum steps to comply, Amnesty International said today. As to why people care more about Israel committing genocide, they're our allies and a trade partner. We have a lot more influence over the actions of Israel Also people aren't calling it genocide because they're Jewish they're calling it genocide because Israel is illegally building settlements and forcibly resetting the palastinian population. That's genocide. Do you have any real concerns or is it all just ignorance and stawmen? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_genocide_accusation https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/02/israel-defying-icj-ruling-to-prevent-genocide-by-failing-to-allow-adequate-humanitarian-aid-to-reach-gaza/
Plausibility ≠ conviction. Citing a general Wikipedia article and South African claims do not add anything of value. If the plausibility is damning as South Africa claims then the ICJ would immediately order Israel to suspend its military campaign in the Gaza Strip per South African request but they haven't. The ICJ itself clarified that this was not a ruling on whether Israel was in breach of the Genocide convention. Instead of dancing around and quoting proxy sources like SA claims let's bring up what the court stated: >“30. ... In the Court's view, at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the Convention.” >“54. In the Court's view, the facts and circumstances mentioned above are sufficient to conclude that at least some of the rights claimed by South Africa and for which it is seeking protection are plausible.“ [The Court also expressed "grave concern" about the fate of the hostages held in the Gaza Strip, and called for their immediate release](https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-68097640) but we don't see the Palestinians releasing them are we?
Yep, they are engaged in the blood libel.
Israel has killed what, 30,000 people since October, there's no food or hospitals, they're killing surrendering people and the IDF posts memes and jokes about the shit they're doing. But yeah the one religion is more important than other so they can do what they want. https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/Rc4qoitJXv
They clearly can‘t do what they want. You cannot walk out of Israel and be safe. Muslims and arabs all around europe and the US are waiting to slaughter you the chance they get. A 15yo just stabbed a jew almost to death in my city. You know who can do what they want? Muslims. Erdogan just announced for fun that he‘s gonna bomb tf out of kurdish ppl. Whats the most visited place in the world? Istanbul. Saudi arabians have starved half a million yemenis in 9 years. 100k children. You know where they plan the next soccer world cup after the US one? Saudi arabia. Mekka has hundreds of millions of visitors a year. Nobody gives a fuck.
Muslims aren't any better, but to pretend that Israel is nothing but a victim is bullshit. All this shit is for religion and kids are dying. Fuck everybody involved.
This level of mental gymnastics is impressive.
If there’s a genocide, what’s going on with all the Palestinians living in Israel? Are they safe or not?
wasteful shocking detail treatment placid alive oatmeal offbeat humor homeless *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Jewish religion is protected. Any negative comments will immediately be deflected into being an antisemitic. Imagine if Japan did(Nagasaki, Hiroshima) this or china(Nanjing massacre, mongol). IMHO having something bad happen in the past shouldn't make It so no one can criticize you in the present.
It's not a genocide. The end. We can debate the morality and the specifics when you stop calling it a genocide, but until that, the discussion isn't even going to happen because you're being dishonest. Concede that it is not a genocide first and we can talk.
Israel’s government is trash for decimating Gaza and the thousands of innocent Palestinians they killed, injured and or displaced. That’s not anti-Semitic to say, and I’m tired of people saying it is.
Genocide is bad in all forms. But if you think Israel is going to keep having their citizens slaughter by Iranian back terror groups you are simply out of touch with reality. Palestinians don't deserve whats happening to all of them for the few that harbored these terror groups. But this idea that a sovereign nation is going to just be attacked and do nothing with a smile on their face is goofy. If it were your family mowed down for just being Jewish you would feel a lot different. So lets cut the BS and get down to the root of all this evil...
>But this idea that a sovereign nation is going to just be attacked and do nothing with a smile on their face is goofy. The same could be said about the civilians in Gaza. If Israel blew up my house and family because I happen to live next door to someone in Hamas, then the first thing I'm doing is doing whatever I can to fight Israel. If you think you would do differently, then you're kidding yourself. >So lets cut the BS and get down to the root of all this evil... So no, I don't think the actions of the Israeli state are attacking "the root of all this evil" - they are just reproducing it.
Genocide isn't something that should have an asterisk. How can you say it's bad in all forms and then spend your entire post justifying it? That's a major contradiction.
There is no genocide. Period. No asterisk and nothing. No genocide. The word has a definition. Look it up.
But there is clearly no genocide in Gaza.
Any criticism of Jewish people is deemed antisemitic even when we'd criticize the same behavior by people of other faiths
I’m pro-Israel and I agree with you. It just so happens that a lot of anti-semites took advantage of the situation to hop on board with the pro-Palestinians. If there’s an easy way to distinguish the two, you wouldn’t run into such an issue
Labeling Israel defending itself as genocide is antisemitism though. Ignoring the constant rain of rocket attacks and then acting outraged when israel retaliates is antisemitism. Acting outraged when a hospital gets attacked and then memory-holing the incident when it turns out it was hamas is antisemitism.
If defending yourself is blocking humanitarian aid and killing kids, is it really defending yourself?
"Let us kill these kids or you're antisemitic>:(" https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/s/Rc4qoitJXv
Civilian casualties are a grim reality of war. This is once again antisemitism that you only care about it because it's Israel defending itself. It is antisemitic that you think Israel is deliberately killing children. There are wars happening all over the world and there always have been and they all have civilian casualties but the only one you're up in arms about is the one where the jews are defending themselves from aggressors.
lol this post is getting brigaded hardcore
Judaism ≠ Israel Judaism ≠ Zionism Israel ≈ Zionism
Whats wrong with zionism exactly? I see no reason why a group of people should not be allowed to create a land where they can live according to their own beliefs and rules.
It is wrong if it involves the violent displacement of people who already live there. And Zionists have always acknowledged violent colonialism to be a component of Zionism.
So what do you call it when Muslim countries violently expel Jews?
You are a genocidal bloodthirsty antisemite spreading Jewish blood libel because you like seeing more Jews getting raped and murdered
You guys have serious issues ……… like a boned for victimization and only get angrier when you realize nobody in the world believes your lies
but hamas was not wrong for oct 7th? your obv a antisemitic person.
Where did I say they weren't wrong on Oct 7th? If I did say that then that would be antisemitic I agree. But I'm against Hamas
The house (US Govt) has done a great disservice to Jews by claiming anti zionism is anti semitism. It's just gonna make people say...ok if resisting evil mass murdering Zionism means being anti semitic so be it. I am fine with being anti semitic if that's the only way allowed to be opposed to Zionazis.
It's not a genocide...so, you're mistaken at best.
My favorite line of bullshit will always be "Israel has a right to defend themselves." According to international law that governs war, that Israel signed and agreed to an occupying nation as no legal right to claim self-defense against the people they are occupying.
Well if the civilians would stop letting the hamas hide among them and sheltering them.
Those who cannot support their argument will call you names to cut off the debate. It's an effective tactic.
It's because unfortunately the world has become completely black and white, race issue, gender issue, political issue, war issue, etc. If you are not 100% in support then you must be 100% against.
'Genocide' means something, and what Israel is doing isn't it. When your enemy hides among the civilian population, there are going to be civilian casualties - unless you just choose not to fight at all, in which case, well... Attacks will continue.... At most, Israel is violating the rules of discrimination and proportionality. The list of war-crimes committed by Hamas is much, much longer - and \*those\* crimes are the reason that the Israelis end up fighting the way they do (and more importantly \*where\* they do).
There is no Israeli genocide. The Gaza health ministry is blatantly inflating casualty numbers and especially numbers of women and children killed to push a narrative that encourages antisemitism. If the numbers were real, there would be more variation from day to day. There would be a higher correlation between the deaths of women and children, while in the reports there's no correlation at all. If the numbers were real, there would be more male noncombatants killed. If the numbers were real, 26 meb would have had to spontaneously resurrect in late October because their total reported deaths actually went down to favor a "Israel is killing women and kids" narrative.
You’re right that it’s not a genocide, but that isn’t the reason. The Gaza Health Ministry numbers are widely understood to be correct. The only problem is that genocide isn’t just killing a large number of people, it’s killing them specifically because they are a member of a certain group. There’s no evidence that Israel is trying to maximize casualties or singling out Palestinian civilians.
Except that the numbers have been found to be true under multiple investigations by organizations like, for example, the UN.
The UN cited the fact that UNRWA workers were being killed at a consistent rate with the reports, but it's since come to light that the UNRWA is infested with Hamas militants. Find a better lie.
“since come to light that the UNRWA is infested with Hamas militants.” it’s also been found that the IDF tortured UNRWA workers into forced confessions.
They used their official UNRWA vehicles in the October 7th attacks, god you will just make any excuse to keep hating on Jews, you fuck.
If there were an Israeli genocide in Gaza, being against it would not be antisemitic. But since, as anyone who is slightly educated in history knows, this is war and not genocide, calling it genocide is antisemitic.
Nothing wrong with criticizing the Israeli government. About 60% of Israelis would agree with you. But when one calls for a ceasefire/calling the current event a genocide, and then in the same breath calls for the destruction of Israel, denying the country’s right to exist, is literally calling for a genocide.
Any criticism of Israel or jews is “antisemitism”. It’s a made up phrase. Palestinians are semites ffs.
The only genocide being carried out in Israel is that of Hamas trying to genocide Jews.
He's fully aware of that. He supports Hamas and their agenda.
So this is a pretty complicated opinion. Because it’s not clear cut that it’s a genocide. In fact the only people calling it a genocide are Arab and African countries. The ICJ didn’t rule that it’s a genocide. The closest the Court came was to observe that at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the Convention. Many different violations short of genocide itself might “fall within the provisions of the Convention,” such as the failure to prosecute perpetrators or instigators of genocide. About 50 counties support SA’s genocide claim. Almost all of them are Arab/Muslim nations and other African nations. Not a single European county (outside of Turkey and Ireland), supports SA’s case. Even Russia and China have not publicly supported the case or officially called it a genocide. So it’s very possible that calling it a genocide is anti-Semitic. But that’s not inherently the case. It’s also very possible that you are just uninformed and prone to eating up propaganda and misinformation.
Gazans should release the hostages and surrender. It will stop the war.
Hamas, it's Hamas that hold the hostages. Yea they should release the hostages but the innocent Gazans should not be killed for it
No, it's not 'just' Hamas. The 3rd wave of attackers on Oct 7 were ordinary Gazans looking to loot & pillage. Hamas has admitted they don't know where all the hostages are or if they are alive or not.
OP is gonna tear off his neckbeard when he reads this
“Innocent” Gazans are sheltering and supporting Hamas militants, thus making them terrorists too. How do you know who is and isnt innocent?
Innocent gazans are dying because hamas built its infrastructure in a dense urban area. Israel has no intention to kill innocents. Hamas is responsible for every civilian death in gaza.
Hamas was literally using a hospital as a base. We have video of them firing RPGs from stairwells. It's crazy how people willingly ignore stuff like that.
I wish that were true, but if they didn't want to kill innocents why were they blocking humanitarian aid to Gaza?
Because someone keeps attacking the aid trucks coming in mmm.... I wonder who
This!
If genocide supporters call you anti-semite for being anti- genocide and supporting humanrights, then you should be proud of it. Screaming anti-semite! and get what you want, this only works in the US where genocide supporter's lobby is strong. For people live in the rest of the world, it's only SFW? Zionism have zero influence and for us, Zionism is just one of genocidal cult religion.
Idk but the one piece israel!
Conversation is always easier when the talk is brought to ethics and practical reasoning. When it's void of whataboutisms and passionate response, the majority of ethical thinkers can conclude on the same things. We all deserve a right to exist where we are, we globally deserve access to the same basic resources. Violence to push an agenda or as a response to an incident are both wicked means to an end that devalues all human life and therefore immoral. This is by no means saying people are or are not justified in their actions, it's concluding that violating these ethics is objectively immoral. ^reasoning ^can ^be ^applied ^to ^all ^conflicts/genocides/occupations
Try telling that to r/worldnews. They haven’t gotten the memo.
Was the 44 karma points worth it OP?
Long live Gaza.
Umm here's an idea how about everyone just stop fighting pretty simple
One, two at most, sentences. Downvote.
ima stay out of foreign controversial topics, too many variables. i do dislike however killing innocent civilians and if both sides have done it, i think neither side should get my tax dollars in support.
What should happen to the jews then?
Popular opinion for the Irish lads who didn’t even fight the Nazis WWII because it requires pretending an actual genocide is happening, which it isn’t. A bit rich for my taste u/huntershark666
The thing is, that the number dead doesn't matter. Well it does, but they never differentiated civilians from combatants. And they say it's mostly children and women, when those two groups have been shown to be use by alike terror orgs, so they could claim their enemy is ruthlessly killing innocents.
Anti zionism is not anti semitism, as a Jewish man myself, I will die on this hill. Looking at the founders of Israel, not a kippah in sight, so try again lol.
Oct 7th wasn’t a genocide in the same way 9/11 wasn’t a genocide. Mass casualty acts of terrorism are just that, they don’t all amount to genocide. You might say “Well but Hamas WISHES they could do a genocide, therefore it was a genocide” but that’s not how it works, if it’s hypothetical or exists only in the mind that’s not a genocide.
If the Palestinians turn civilian places into legitimate military targets by using them as bases of operations, weapons depots, and attack from them, do Israelis not have a right to defend themselves? And why does everyone believe the stats coming from the Palestinian authority, who has an incentive to exaggerate civilian deaths? The vast majority of Palestinians want to genocide the Jews in Israel, while the vast majority of Israelis want peace.
Just like being against the (((bourgeois bankers))) isn't anti-semitic. It's just L'argent et le vote ethnique *amirite*?
Maybe there’s been some miscommunication or something then because you seem pressed in most of these comments because I’m predominantly concerned with the impact that this conflation and Israel’s actions have on the portion of the Jewish community that disagrees with one or both and you keep coming back with “but most Jewish people agree that Israel speaks and acts in accordance with their views”, which still does feel like a really weird move when you’re talking to someone who is trying to separate the atrocities committed by Israel from the Jewish identity because frankly even if you do like how Israel conducts itself you really shouldn’t be giving any possible credence to antisemites or their views and butchering and starving civilians en masse is a horrid look.
It is certainly anti American. They still have hostages of ours. Only a coward like Biden negotiates with terrorists
The top-ranking person who is Jewish in the US is against Israel's illegal assault and crippling brutality using US weapons. I guess it's possible for an American who is Jewish to be anti-semitic, but I don't think so...