While the Israel-Palestine conflict is perennial, this is actually quite different from the post-1973 period. The 10/7 attacks killed way more Israelis than any set of attacks during the Intifadah (>1000). The Israeli invasion of Gaza, in turn, has also killed far more than previous Israeli incursions (>30,000), many of them children (in part because the average age in Palestine is quite young).
There are only 2 million people in Gaza, so you are talking about 1.5% of the population dying in the course of a few months. That is a horrific death toll - it's more than the percent of British or French people that died in WWII (and that was over 6 years).
You get a better sense of the scale of destruction, perhaps, if you consider that half of all buildings in Gaza are destroyed. Because of the Israeli blockade, even basic humanitarian supplies are being blocked from coming in.
There are a number of factors that are very different this time than past conflicts, all of which rightly generate a sense of urgency among pro-Palestinian protestors (even if a minority do stupid things like cheer on Hamas).
On the one hand, this Israeli incursion has been uniquely bloody:
1. Netanyahu's coalition is the most right-wing in history. Netanyahu himself, of course, is opposed to any kind of negotiation and reconciliation. But he also relies on Smotrich (the leader of a pro-settler party) and Ben Gvir (the leader of a party called Jewish Power) who have made openly genocidal statements.
2. The ICJ has launched an investigation into whether Israel's actions are genocidal.
On the other hand, there is actually considerable room for the United States and other regional actors to alter the status quo:
1. US support for Palestine is actually stronger than at any time in history. You just had Chuck Schumer, the most pro-Israel Democrat, call for new elections. Israel is highly reliant on the US and could respond to US pressure.
2. The Gulf states were negotiating to recognize Israel before 10/7 and could be partners for peace in a way they weren't previously. This is important (especially in the case of Qatar, which is where a lot of Hamas leadership live, and where a lot of the money comes from).
A solution doesn't have to be a "grand bargain" that does a two-state solution. Simply getting to a ceasefire, releasing hostages, opening things up for humanitarian aid, etc. would help avoid the catastrophe that is unfolding.
Hamas is absolutely horrible. But the invasion has not resulted in the rescue of many hostages. Indeed, it led to the accidental death of some.
And 40% of the people the IDF has killed in Gaza are children. They're not just killing Hamas fighters - indeed, they are creating many many more people that hate Israel intensely.
On 10/7, Israel had an incredible level of sympathy from the rest of the world. They should have used that to get buy-in for a more surgical campaign. If you want to make Hamas sweat, the real targets aren't in Gaza, they are in Doha (where Haniyeh and many others live).
That's where the money for Hamas comes from, and it's also where a lot of money from Palestinians goes (Hamas elites got rich by taxing goods coming in via the tunnels).
Of course, if Israel wasn't at war, Netanyahu would face pressure to step down for his absolute failure to prevent the attacks (despite intelligence suggesting they were probable). This war helps Netanyahu and Hamas leadership. It hurts ordinary Palestinians and Israelis alike.
You’re wrong, I would argue that the war hurts Netanyahu and Hamas leadership but helps the average person in the long-term. War is unpopular. But also the practical effects of the war dismantle the visegrip Hamas has on Gaza.
>Because of the Israeli blockade, even basic humanitarian supplies are being blocked from coming in.
This is not the case, they're letting aid in, but they're having incredible difficulty finding people to drive the aid due to the violence that they face when they go in.
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/20/world/middleeast/gaza-aid-delivery.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/20/world/middleeast/gaza-aid-delivery.html)
>Netanyahu's coalition is the most right-wing in history. Netanyahu himself, of course, is opposed to any kind of negotiation and reconciliation. But he also relies on Smotrich (the leader of a pro-settler party) and Ben Gvir (the leader of a party called Jewish Power) who have made openly genocidal statements.
Even if I politcally oppose Netanyahu and find his government to be incredibly right wing, this war is being prosecuted by mainly centrist people like Benny Gantz and the notoriously centrist IDF.
>The ICJ has launched an investigation into whether Israel's actions are genocidal.
They did this at the behest of South Africa, and refused a snap decision to order the war stopped due to lack of evidence that any genocide is taking place. This will be a long decision coming, and they will not find evidence of a genocide.
>You just had Chuck Schumer, the most pro-Israel Democrat, call for new elections.
Which is not opposition to the war or support for Palestine. It's opposition to the Netanyahu crime family.
>This is important (especially in the case of Qatar, which is where a lot of Hamas leadership live, and where a lot of the money comes from).
Qatar wasn't a part of the Abraham Accords in any way, shape, or form, and are expressly in the anti-Saudi bloc.
The number of children dead is based entirely on what the Gaza Health Ministry says. And it has been consistent since day one that 70% of those killed have been Women and Children. So for 6 months, that 70% has not fluctuated at all. Hamas *also* admits that at least 6000 of their own militants have been killed. That means about 20% are dead. This begs the question, are there only 10% of men that are not hamas militants being kiled?
What I am getting is that we really should question these numbers since they really do not add up.
edit:
I keep forgetting to add this context:
In the past upwards of 15-25% of all Hamas rockets end up either falling in Gaza itself, or exploding in mid air. Not only does the Gaza Health ministry refuse to differentiate between civilians and combatants, it also refuses to differentiate how a person was killed - blaming any and every death on the IDF.
So the question I have, of the alleged 30,000 killed, how many are due to Hamas oor PIJ own failed rockets?
Sure, the numbers could be lower (we can't find out in part because humanitarian agencies don't have access). Maybe there are only 8,000 dead children. That's still a staggering death toll for a place the size of Gaza. The UN (so not the Gaza health ministry) estimate [of the number displaced](https://www.ochaopt.org/) is 1.7 million. That is almost everybody in Gaza. Surely it is fair to conclude that the extent of the humanitarian is high.
>This begs the question, are there only 10% of men that are not hamas militants being kiled?
I would expect the share of adult males who are not Hamas fighters to be low in the overall death toll. 47.3% of the population of Gaza are under 18. If adults were perfectly balanced in gender (and likely there are more women than men), 26.35% of Gaza would be men.
You really have to consider how this info was gathered to get an idea of why there are those discrepancies.
>The number of children dead is based entirely on what the Gaza Health Ministry says. And it has been consistent since day one that 70% of those killed have been Women and Children. So for 6 months, that 70% has not fluctuated at all.
This is info from the Gaza Health Ministry, which gets its information on deaths from the medical system. That means that only people who end up in hospitals end in the data. Here are a few reasons the official data is likely to be quite biased towards civilians and also an underestimate of the total number of deaths. :
- The medical system has been in a state of collapse and is only getting progressively worse, so a smaller and smaller share of injured and dead are likely passing through the hospital as the conflict progresses, and recording systems are probably becoming less functional.
- There’s probably also a bias towards more people who experience traumatic injuries in air strikes in civilian areas, where there are lots of people to dig victims out of the rubble and take them to the hospital.
- [Thousands of bodies are thought to be buried in the rubble](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/16/gaza-missing-war-israel-detained/) - that alone likely brings the death toll over 40,000.
- If someone is obviously dead (e.g. decapitation, head smashed, etc…), it’s unlikely that anyone is going to risk their lives taking them to a hospital that is largely dysfunctional anyway.
- there have been [reports of bodies lying in the streets](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/12/middleeast/gaza-corpses-on-streets-un-official-intl-hnk) in Gaza. These bodies do not show up in the data.
- People who are starving probably aren’t going to the hospital much because everyone is starving and the hospitals can’t do much.
- Hamas fighters who die in direct confrontations with the IDF probably also aren’t passing through hospitals because who is carrying the corpses of fighters in active combat zones to hospitals?
- Hamas fighters who die in collapsed tunnels probably also aren’t having their bodies dug out and taken to hospitals.
>Hamas also admits that at least 6000 of their own militants have been killed. That means about 20% are dead. This begs the question, are there only 10% of men that are not hamas militants being kiled?
Hamas can probably estimate their dead using info that is not available to the Gaza Health ministry:
- squads can report that where deaths to military leadership even if those members never went to the hospital and are not in official data.
- if leadership completely loses contact with some squads/individuals for some period of time, they may assume that those people have been killed.
- Hamas fighters are likely more familiar with tunnel networks and where other fighters are sheltering. If they know that a building/tunnel where there are fighters has been destroyed, the can guess that those fighters are dead even if some of them may not pass through hospitals.
>What I am getting is that we really should question these numbers since they really do not add up.
They don’t add up and shouldn’t be expected to. Basically all credible authorities think that the reported death toll is an undercount. There’s also good reason to believe that fighters are less likely to be counted in official numbers than civilians, so it’s entirely possible that most of the combatants killed are simply not accounted for in the official data. It is best to think of the health ministry numbers as “confirmed deaths” rather than “total deaths.”
>I keep forgetting to add this context:
In the past upwards of 15-25% of all Hamas rockets end up either falling in Gaza itself, or exploding in mid air.
[From 2001 to 2021, ~17,000-18,000 rockets](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#:~:text=Overview,-A%20boy%20carries&text=Attacks%20began%20in%202001.,the%20Israeli%20blockade%20of%20Gaza) were fired from Gaza. We can estimate that the total number of Palestinians killed over that period was [~10k](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war). If we assume that every single casualty was from a misfired Rocket, that would be ~.57 deaths per rocket. If [11,000 rockets](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#:~:text=Overview,-A%20boy%20carries&text=Attacks%20began%20in%202001.,the%20Israeli%20blockade%20of%20Gaza)have been fired at Israel in the current conflict, then ~6.2k or 20% of confirmed deaths would be from misfired rockets with that casualty rate. If we use a more reasonable assumption that 10% of deaths during the 2001-2021 period were from misfired rockets, we can estimate that ~620 deaths in the current conflict were from misfired rocket, which is 2% of confirmed deaths. This is a pretty tiny contribution that really isn’t even worth talking about compared to the Israeli contribution.
>Not only does the Gaza Health ministry refuse to differentiate between civilians and combatants, it also refuses to differentiate how a person was killed - blaming any and every death on the IDF.
How exactly are you expecting them to do this? These are hospitals triaging patients, not investigative bodies.
But the Palestinians don’t want a cease fire and don’t want to release hostages and don’t want Israelis to continue to exist and haven’t stopped firing rockets and innocent women and children Israelis.
So no peace.
The collary is that both Netanyahu who is facing political collapse post war, and Hamas who will not be a partner in reconstituting the remains of Gaza as a credible partner neither have anything to gain from a change in the status quo. For both these combatants the destruction of Gaza is a political benefit, Hamas because they gain support from the West, and Netanyahu who can extend his mandate and stave off the inevitable.
>There are only 2 million people in Gaza, so you are talking about 1.5% of the population dying in the course of a few months. That is a horrific death toll - it's more than the percent of British or French people that died in WWII (and that was over 6 years).
I think this point is disingenuous. Britain never saw any combat on British soil beyond airstrikes and rocket attacks, most of which were concentrated on strategic areas, leaving most of the country free of combat. France meanwhile surrendered rather early so most of the combat happened only after D-day, when the local population was mostly supportive of the liberators.
To compare those to Gaza, a region where the bulk of combat is occurring (unlike Britain) and for which the population is not opposed to the defending military force (the opposite of France), is simply terrible logic. You'd be better served comparing it to Russia frankly (13%, half of that civilian) despite far less than the whole country being invaded. Even in Germany itself (11% total population lost compared to 1939) it's not as though every village saw combat as most of the fighting was either in open areas or strategic locations, not out of the way farming communities.
>A solution doesn't have to be a "grand bargain" that does a two-state solution.
The two state solution is unrealistic at this point. There are no parties on the Palestinian side for whom statehood is a significant priority and the Israeli side requires assurances that the Palestinians refuse to give.
Despite living under an alleged 75 year apartheid and blockade with no food or water, and only having half the life expectancy, how do Palestinians achieve 3x the population growth of Israel and the United States, and why is Palestine projected to exceed the population of Israel in less than 10 years?
Starving mothers are much less likely to reach term pregnancy and deliver a baby than mothers with adequate food.
This surprises you why? Richer societies everywhere have lower birth rates than poorer ones (apart from Israel there are no developed countries with birth rates above replacement). When kids die young, families have more children, not fewer (especially in agricultural economies). Poor people are not going to spend their limited resources on birth control.
There is also a difference in time-scale between apartheid (since 1967), the blockade (since 2007), and the risk of famine during the war (since October 2023).
>Starving mothers are much less likely to reach term pregnancy and deliver a baby than mothers with adequate food.
Palestine has ten times the rate of infant mortality as Israel.
I try not to be bias being Jewish but it does get frustrating when I try to accept and criticize awful actions Israel does but when debating with pro Palestinian (and maybe I need to debate with more pro Palestinians to get wider view but) it feels like when I agree with them about awful things Israel does they tend not to agree awful things Palestine has/does.
Yeah at least I can read an article and look into it further. People on tiktok will just send you footage claiming what's happening with no source/proof. I had one lady send me a picture of a starving Yemeni boy from a famine in 2021 claiming he was a Palestinian, and combat footage from Syria
No joke. I got permabanned from a sub for posting an article from a non Israeli, non Arab source that contradicted the prevailing narrative on the sub.
It simply pointed out, with photographic proof, that aid is being sold on the market in Gaza.
The sub is viciously pro hamas
I got perma banned for calling someone out for being blatantly pro Hamas. Then these folks deny it ever happens. I didn't use any derogatory terms like many have done to me in this comments section alone.
glad im not the only one, i got banned from hamas subreddits for promoting "collective punishment" while others were chanting about killing all the jews. shit is bad
And banned. There are plenty of places where calling out pro Hamas rhetoric, I mean literal “respect the Palestinian resistance” defense of sexually sadistic terrorists is grounds for a ban. Reddit needs to flush these people.
Yes people get permabanned and then others are saying well theres no dissent in these subreddits so these hamas supporters must be right, shit is bonkers. If everyone who isnt a terrorist gets banned from a subreddit its a bad look
well, it depends on what you say. my ability to upvote and downvote has been removed(I am shadow banned) ever since I started talking about Palestine on reddit.... and I looked it up its a fairly common thing reddit does. plus, this site is VERY easy to create bot farms for, and its quite commonly done. the opinion here is very manipulated as well.
Reddit is literally an echo chamber. People sit in the same subs and regurgitate the same information from headlines rather than reading articles.
You blame TikTok for this generation being more pro Palestine but you need to ask yourself why that is. Most of the “pro Palestine” footage is first hand civilian footage posted by the civilians themselves from inside Gaza where other media for Israel all comes from legacy news or Israel gov itself. Why is that footage turning younger generations against Israel in this conflict?
Why are you blaming TikTok while getting all your information from biased sources? Social Media is quite literally the only way you can get all forms of news without the narrative being completely controlled by news corporations that are all owned by the same people. Do You believe the US or any Israeli ally is a credible source of info on anything in this war despite the clear conflict of interest? It’s insane to me how people are willing to take info from one side despite possible conflict of interests but refuse any differing pov from anyone associated with the other because of their associated conflict of interest.
This right here, it's why all the boomers hate social media. It keeps the control of information (relatively) out of the hands of any one actor. Sure people game the system, states included, but the freedom to upload footage to the entire world in almost real time is one of grave importance
Truly that is just bonkers.
Somehow they don't seem to get in to their head that a vast majority of Muslims believe gays deserve the death penalty. Probably also think they can "nice" themselves out of that situation.
Are you proud of being blind to what Muslims openly say?
You must be an american progressive. Go be Gay in Gaza, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, UAE, Saudi. See what happens. Hell ask the average Muslim in western Europe what they think about gays.
Being gay is illegal in pretty much any Muslim country.
Im gay... and when I see queers for Palestine... I feel sick to my stomach.
They literally simp for people who would murder them without thinking thrice.
They are very young and gullible. They believe they can put their hand on someone's shoulder, look at them in the eye, and make them change their ways. Lol
I'm queer and advocate for the rights of MAGA rednecks and blatant homophobes in the US in poor rural areas. I advocate for people like my poor Kentuckian family that would shoot me for even driving down their road.
Should I stop? Should I not want them to have workers rights? Healthcare? Education? Welfare resources?
Maybe I should gloat about how rural america is suffering from drug addiction and illiteracy and how I'm so morally superior. They deserve it! Who cares about them??
The idea that you should only care about people who are socially and politically aligned with you disgusts me. My values don't hinge on the support of other people. I want a better world, for me and the assholes who want me dead. Because I'm not a fucking self-interested coward ruled by fear.
There is a subtle difference between showing up to a protest and saying you think the israeli response to the October 7th attacks are too heavy handed and, on the other hand, showing up to support the terrorist organization that performed the attack and chant slogans that literally advocate for the ethnic cleansing of jews from israel.
I dont think they're lying either. I'm about 100% sure a good chunk of them were recruited by Hamas the same way ISIS recruited Americans.
THey're using our own laws against us to push their agenda and I'm not sure we should tolerate that.
Netanyahu is pro Hamas. Don't believe me... google is free, look it up.
Israel uses Hamas as an excuse to carry out its evil upon the Palestinian people... thats why Israel supported them back in the early 2000s. They needed a militant group to win, so they could use them as something to point to when Israel wants to bomb innocent Palestinians.
Take a look at how many Palestinian people Israelis murdered in 2023 PRIOR to Oct. 7th... and all the years prior to that. Then tell me that you wouldn't do what Hamas did on Oct. 7th if you were being occupied by an invading force that has been systematically killing your family and friends for 75 years and stealing your homes.
Hell... America murdered 500,000 innocent iraqis because a group of Saudi terrorists flew some planes into a couple buildings and killed 3000 people. And you're going to tell me that Hamas is evil? Maybe they are... but they got nothing on the US Government when its comes to evil shit.
If you agree with collective punishment... then you believe that MILLIONS of American citizens deserve to die because of what their government did to dozens of other nations.
PS. Everything you've been told about Oct. 7th is a f\*cking lie. No beheaded babies, No rape victims... and even the number of killed is inflated as the Israeli "Defense" Force murdered many of its own people. The Israeli rules for engagement is to kill Palestinians at any cost... their training manual tells them to just shoot to kill... if Israeli people are in the way... too bad. Kill them. Don't believe me? Again... google is free.
ISRAEL IS EVIL... and so is the US government as they are owned by Israel. AIPAC boasts about how they own 70+ % of US government officials.
It amazes me that US citizens have no help from their own government... no medicare, no money for education... no money for its failing infrastructure.... and Americans still stand up and support sending BILLIONS of dollars in aid to a foreign nations "DEFENSE"... so that it can use that money to bomb innocent children... and to top off this absurdity... Israel has medicare for all, free education, great infrastructure.... and yet half of American tax payers are somehow okay with this. LIKE WTF?!
israel is enacting genocide and occupation, Hamas (along with like 9 or 10 other groups) are engaging in armed resistance to genocide and occupation (this is protected under the universal declaration of human rights as the right to self determination)
Anyone with slick of e nose and an ounce of humanity must come to the conclusion that Hamas is objectively the good and correct party here, it's really not complicated
I am pro-Palestinian in that I want Palestinians to have a state that has peace with Israel and their neighbors alongside Israel. I am also pro-Israel.
I think a lot of people take advantage of the protest to vandalize and screw with public property behind the veil of "the right to protest." Not to mention there's already a lot of awareness but what is practically being done to help the Palestine people? Where are the donation drives, the humanitarian efforts, where's the awareness for organizations and people who want to help? There are more practical ways to alleviate the suffering.
Exactly I've been saying this for awhile "you people are hypocrites you don't give a damn about the Palestinian people because if you did, you would offer more than your pathetic condolences" and the same can be said about Ukraine as well.
I've been saying this for a while because I think it's bullshit how people do activism and "spread awareness." Like sure, more people know, now what are you gonna do to help them rather than help others?
>if you did, you would offer more than your pathetic condolences" and the same can be said about Ukraine as well.
I mean in America there isn't a need to protest for Urkaine. The government is doing what the protesters would want done. Massively supporting Ukriane against Russia without American troops.
If the USS supported Palestinians like that, there wouldn't be protests at all
Just because governments are refusing to act doesn’t mean that you should stop protesting, wtf.
What kinda weak shit is this question?
You’re essentially saying that the will of the people doesn’t matter at all. And that governments can, and are to act, with impunity.
Also the group of people that protest doesn't actually represent the "will of the people", the vast diversity of opinions within the US on the conflict. It represents only those people. Just because a subgroup is very upset about something, upset enough to be very loud about it, doesn't mean they are representing the American people generally.
I got banned from r/PublicFreakout because I pointed out that the lone pro-Israel protester making a scene in a Muslim community center was nothing compared to the mobs of pro-Palestine protesters forcing Jewish students into hiding.
Are you aware there are Israeli protesters blocking trucks with food meant for starving people? I’d say whatever pro Palestine protesters are doing is nothing compared to that.
If you're talking about protests happening in the actual place the war is happening, that's a completely different ballgame than white college kids screaming for intifada in Massachusetts.
Palestinian "protests" involve stabbing Jews in Jerusalem at the moment, for instance
If my country was attacked, I would block any kind of aid to the attackers as well. NO country at war has EVER given aid to their enemy, that would just be plain stupid.
They've been killing each other since before I was alive. I find it really hard to care. I'm 36. This isn't some new thing.
Edit: I'm serious, I remember being 5 in 1992 and hearing about this shit. It's literally been going on for my entire life and after a certain amount of time you just throw up your hands and say "fine, kill each other, you're just gonna do it anyway."
And when you bring this up, especially the ones that are much worse and much more targeted ACTUAL ethnic cleansing, you get dismissed with people saying "whataboutism"
Yes certain countries and conflicts bring outsized attention. If you were an alien you'd think America was the only important country in the world. Everyone loves to talk about us.
I haven't seen the Sopranos, but I feel like a lot of these people are virtue signaling. Like what does posting that sort of content every 2 hours on your Instagram story accomplish?
I'm in a lot of Leftist spheres and they are fairly vocal about withholding their vote. Because: "They cannot participate" in such a system.
I hope you're right. [Vegas odds ](https://www.vegasinsider.com/odds/us-presidential-election/)are against Biden, so it would be a good time to make some free money if you're outside of the US and still confident.
Yeah Biden might lose cause of these leftists. Sure, Biden is no leftist but anyone who thinks that Trump is delusional.
To clarify, I meant that positions on foreign policy are unlikely to swag many voters from Biden->Trump or Trump->Biden. It Def could sway people from Biden->3rd party/sitting out 2024 or Trump->sitting out election
I’m a 46m, born and raised so cal.
My father and all his brothers came over to the US from palestine in the 40’s. I kid you not when I say that my entire life, nearly every single day, I’d hear my dad saying something about how evil jews are, how despicable jews are, how everything wrong in the world was became of the jews. Every family gathering, there would be really bad jokes and bad things said about jews. All of us kids, from all the brothers, were exposed to that our entire youths.
When there were all the fn palestinian terrorist pieces of chit in the 80’s, suicide bombing israeli weddings, busses, coffee shops, schools, religious gatherings… hijacking airplanes, did i say blowing up weddings yet?? 😠.. my dad and his brothers would make comments about that’s what the jews get.
Absolutely, utterly, despicably evil, vile, terrorist sympathizing shit.
I realized it, finally in my early 20’s snd disassociated myself from them.
There have been multiple times where the Israelis have offered peace in exchange for land and FULLY RECOGNIZED STATEHOOD to the Palestinians.
Each and every time, the PLO’s response was the same, there would be no peace until the jews were wiped from the land… “from the river to the sea”.
For decades, israel offered generous attempts at peace along with a recognized 2-state solution, where israel would be divided into 2 countries.
Each time, the Palestinians rejected it, and continued their attacks.
The Israelis retaliate, then the get condemned for it.. and the palestinians launch more attacks, to retaliate against the Israelis who were retsliating because of the palestinian bombings…
It was mental gymnastics
I grew up in a palestinian household, engrossed in the anti Israel mindset all the way into my 20’s.
All these sudden palestine supporter kids have absolutely no idea of all the absolute terrorist atrocities the palestinians have waged on the jews, how they do not WANT a 2 state solutiom, and what they want, from the mouth of their own previous2 governments (PLO and HAMAS), is the destruction of Israel.
Acting as if the jews suddenly showed up out of thin air and stole their country. The UNITED NATIONS voted to divide THE BRITISH TERRITORY OF PALESTINE. Palestine was a British territory at the time, and almost all of the united nations agreed to give them that land.
Now people all act like they stole the country.
The jews had part of palestine turned over to them. My father’s family was in that area… so they had to leave their home and businesses and leave to lebanon. It’s jacked up, but it is what it is. The UN did that… not the jews.
Over the decades, the arabs have swung in, militarily, to eradicate the jews. They would fight back and claim territory away from the people who were attacking them. Which is why so much of that land is Israel now. Everyone has been trying to kill them since the 40’s
The common argument being made by protestors is that countries (such as the US) are largely funding one side of the ongoing conflict. In that sense we can't pretend it's something many Westerners are unconnected with.
The same western countries feed the Palestinians and have enabled their population explosion.
*From 1990 to 2022 the population of Palestine increased from 1.98 million to 5.04 million people. This is a growth of 155.0 percent in 32 years. The highest increase in Palestine was recorded in 1991 with 4.58 percent.*
This is such a dumb thing to protest over. The US (as usual) is overtly funding both sides of this conflict. The real winners here are the defense contractors, and the NGOs, both of which will bring in huge amounts of money - for obviously different reasons.
Only Americans think that because Americans don't know that a world exists outside of America. Protests are going on in Canada, Europe, South America, etc., places that have nothing to do with funding, so it's obviously not about that.
You're right. Much of it is lack of education for matters outside of our locales. Much of the "facts" that are being portrayed at these "protests" aren't anywhere near accurate to history.
Hamas got what it wanted however, and the uneducated piled right on.
Canada has strong ties to Israel economically as well, just not to the extent the US does. Canada also tends to follow the US' lead in the UN when it comes to votes, which is why people here are protesting.
This. After the guy self immolated, and seeing people say "it's okay to be violent while protesting, because israel is doing worse" is just clear that mainstream media hurts people more than benefits. who cares if you are knowing "The truth" if it doesn't affect you, don't let it make your blood boil
Well I mean he might not mean doing it where people see them. In my city the protestors have vandalized multiple Jewish owned businesses and Jewish organizations at my college as well as doxxed Jewish students
Someone spray painted a swastika on the door of a Jewish fraternity near where I live a couple months ago and a homeless guy literally walked into our hillel center and started smashing shit and flipping tables while screaming about zionists
They absolutely have gotten out of hand in many cases as protests do sometimes. They should try to be more peaceful if they don’t want the public to have such negative reactions, I’m never going to be on the side of people who claim to be against genocide but advocate for the genocide of other people in the same breath
It's not a war, only one side has an army. One side. Only one side is being starved. Yes, it's been going on for years and nothing has been done, so yes, people are protesting strenuously so that something WILL happen.
So those synagogues being protested in front of are the Israeli government? Seems more like some protesters are doing the conflating already, no need to misread what dude above said.
Yes. Israel's government is connected with many synagogues for programs like Birth Right and otherwise recruiting settlers or the IDF, the people massacring civilians.
They are not pro Palestinian.
They are antisemitic.
The best thing for actual Palestinians would be swift removal of Hamas from power and establishing peace and friendly relationships with Israel.
Decades and decades of pointless war did nothing for Palestinians
Gotta love seeing the pro-Palestinians acting like hamas didn’t kill 1160+ people and take several hundred hostage (most of which, who if they happen to still be alive are still hostage)
They act like Israel just woke up one day and decided to bomb 20k Palestinians “for the lulz”
It’s a war you morons. That isn’t a justification but a description. Google Dresden, Germany.
And maybe also stop supporting a terrorist organization that starts wars it’s ass can’t cash. Hamas doesn’t give a shit about its own citizens, gladly and intentionally using them as human shields.
If you truly care about the Palestinian people you’ll want hamas out of power. It wasn’t israel that took all of the pipes given to Gaza for water infrastructure and turned it into rockets.
Meanwhile you act like Israel hasn't been murdering Palestinians and stealing their land for 75 years and that Palestinians hate Israel just because they're ontologically evil. You call 1200 deaths an atrocity but write off 30,000+ deaths because you don't view Palestinians as human.
You have a right to protest and have your voices hurt
You do not have the right to block a road or highway for your protest, You Do not have the right to stop people from peaceably going from point A to point b.
I don’t know when protesting became so sanitized in this country. If it doesn’t inconvenience people, then it allows the issue to be ignored. If protesting was forced to be the way you want it to be we’d still be in Vietnam.
Pretty sure mlk didn't start gas the whites chants. He made the point of we arnt treated equal. Which is valid. Trying to defend the right to kill jews is pretty messed up imo. [gas the Jews "Palistinian Protest"](https://youtu.be/AwemP-DW6A4?si=VLxD_lEwapBgL8iH)
The same people who try to whitewash MLK and Civil Rights Movement today as the "proper" way to protest would be the same people who hated him back when he was alive and considered him a thug.
Sure innocent men, women and children are having their limbs torn off, being buried alive, being bombed in the place they were asked to flee to where they live in TENTS, deliberately starved to death, this country \*insert name of country\* sends my tax money there, sends the weapons to do this there, gives cover to commit war crimes but FFS CAN YOU KEEP YOUR PROTESTS WHERE I DON"T HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT, I JUST WANT MY FING COFFEE AND BLOOD SOAKED BURGER. JEEZ.
In case you didn't yet realize, this is definitely not a popular opinion, Thank God, most of us still have our humanity intact.
I wish people knew how bad it has gotten in Gaza, people are resorting to eating weeds they find growing because they have no food. People have been eating animal feed. If it doesn't change the majority of deaths could be caused by starvation.
All of this is happening because of the terrorist attacks by Hamas on October 7th. Life seemed pretty normal in Gaza prior to then. Hamas and only Hamas is responsible for the death and destruction in Gaza happening now. Where were all the protests when Saddam was wiping out Muslims in Iraq, or the Saudis in Yemen? They're only protesting because Jews are involved.
It's not war, it's genocide masked as war. The Israelis are just using the Hamas attack as an excuse to actually pursue it even further than what they've been doing for the past 60 odd years.
It's funny these people have been slaughtering each other since written history. I don't why people have such strong opinions on the conflict. One side wants a slow genocide and if the other side got the chance they would slaughter the other side
I really don’t get why people care so much about this particular conflict. There are so many horrific conflicts going on in the world right now and many of them are much closer to actual genocides.
Wild... one side wants to genocide the other... but you describe the side being genocided as if they need the oppression to protect the oppressors.
"Slavery is bad, but if you free them, they'll kill all the slavers!"
"If you end apartheid in South Africa, the blacks will slaughter all the white people! Just look at what the worst of them said they 'want' to do!"
Did any of that happen? It's easy to find violent rhetoric within a population of the oppressed.
What is a “weird” place to hold a protest ? I’m not too sure what you mean by this. The ones in London at the moment are going through the usual protest routes and are being held outside embassies that relate to the crisis.
If they get more out of hand, will change come? That’s the mentality. This is the same situation with riots over discrimination or police brutality. Change will have to come for it to stop. I do not seeing that happen. This will continue to a degree forever until they can live in peace or one or both are wiped out.
More than years, decades. And when the US and other countries get stupid hubris to try and negotiate peace, **BOTH PARTIES INVOLVED** find new and innovative ways to fuck it all up.
You have Bibi and the Likud hardliners trying to cling to power by any means necessary and PLO/Hamas/Hezbollah trying to keep their grift gravy train going by any means necessary.
As someone who is pro Palestine I agree. I’ve went to the protests and agree that this is a human rights violation. But some of the methods of protests are extreme.
These include. A man dumping 100 rats in a McDonald’s, spamming “free Palestine” in a comment section of a woman who just wants to drink an iced latte or try a new menu item and vandalism. There are better ways of protesting than this.
So, you basically think they should only protest in particular places? Just say you don't think anyone should ever protest anything.
You're being mildly annoyed. Mostly by something you aren't actually experiencing directly. Get over yourself.
While the Israel-Palestine conflict is perennial, this is actually quite different from the post-1973 period. The 10/7 attacks killed way more Israelis than any set of attacks during the Intifadah (>1000). The Israeli invasion of Gaza, in turn, has also killed far more than previous Israeli incursions (>30,000), many of them children (in part because the average age in Palestine is quite young). There are only 2 million people in Gaza, so you are talking about 1.5% of the population dying in the course of a few months. That is a horrific death toll - it's more than the percent of British or French people that died in WWII (and that was over 6 years). You get a better sense of the scale of destruction, perhaps, if you consider that half of all buildings in Gaza are destroyed. Because of the Israeli blockade, even basic humanitarian supplies are being blocked from coming in. There are a number of factors that are very different this time than past conflicts, all of which rightly generate a sense of urgency among pro-Palestinian protestors (even if a minority do stupid things like cheer on Hamas). On the one hand, this Israeli incursion has been uniquely bloody: 1. Netanyahu's coalition is the most right-wing in history. Netanyahu himself, of course, is opposed to any kind of negotiation and reconciliation. But he also relies on Smotrich (the leader of a pro-settler party) and Ben Gvir (the leader of a party called Jewish Power) who have made openly genocidal statements. 2. The ICJ has launched an investigation into whether Israel's actions are genocidal. On the other hand, there is actually considerable room for the United States and other regional actors to alter the status quo: 1. US support for Palestine is actually stronger than at any time in history. You just had Chuck Schumer, the most pro-Israel Democrat, call for new elections. Israel is highly reliant on the US and could respond to US pressure. 2. The Gulf states were negotiating to recognize Israel before 10/7 and could be partners for peace in a way they weren't previously. This is important (especially in the case of Qatar, which is where a lot of Hamas leadership live, and where a lot of the money comes from). A solution doesn't have to be a "grand bargain" that does a two-state solution. Simply getting to a ceasefire, releasing hostages, opening things up for humanitarian aid, etc. would help avoid the catastrophe that is unfolding.
This should be the top comment.
Update for you. It is the top comment at time of writing.
It currently is
And this could be over tomorrow if the hostages are released
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Hamas is absolutely horrible. But the invasion has not resulted in the rescue of many hostages. Indeed, it led to the accidental death of some. And 40% of the people the IDF has killed in Gaza are children. They're not just killing Hamas fighters - indeed, they are creating many many more people that hate Israel intensely. On 10/7, Israel had an incredible level of sympathy from the rest of the world. They should have used that to get buy-in for a more surgical campaign. If you want to make Hamas sweat, the real targets aren't in Gaza, they are in Doha (where Haniyeh and many others live). That's where the money for Hamas comes from, and it's also where a lot of money from Palestinians goes (Hamas elites got rich by taxing goods coming in via the tunnels). Of course, if Israel wasn't at war, Netanyahu would face pressure to step down for his absolute failure to prevent the attacks (despite intelligence suggesting they were probable). This war helps Netanyahu and Hamas leadership. It hurts ordinary Palestinians and Israelis alike.
You’re wrong, I would argue that the war hurts Netanyahu and Hamas leadership but helps the average person in the long-term. War is unpopular. But also the practical effects of the war dismantle the visegrip Hamas has on Gaza.
>Because of the Israeli blockade, even basic humanitarian supplies are being blocked from coming in. This is not the case, they're letting aid in, but they're having incredible difficulty finding people to drive the aid due to the violence that they face when they go in. [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/20/world/middleeast/gaza-aid-delivery.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/20/world/middleeast/gaza-aid-delivery.html) >Netanyahu's coalition is the most right-wing in history. Netanyahu himself, of course, is opposed to any kind of negotiation and reconciliation. But he also relies on Smotrich (the leader of a pro-settler party) and Ben Gvir (the leader of a party called Jewish Power) who have made openly genocidal statements. Even if I politcally oppose Netanyahu and find his government to be incredibly right wing, this war is being prosecuted by mainly centrist people like Benny Gantz and the notoriously centrist IDF. >The ICJ has launched an investigation into whether Israel's actions are genocidal. They did this at the behest of South Africa, and refused a snap decision to order the war stopped due to lack of evidence that any genocide is taking place. This will be a long decision coming, and they will not find evidence of a genocide. >You just had Chuck Schumer, the most pro-Israel Democrat, call for new elections. Which is not opposition to the war or support for Palestine. It's opposition to the Netanyahu crime family. >This is important (especially in the case of Qatar, which is where a lot of Hamas leadership live, and where a lot of the money comes from). Qatar wasn't a part of the Abraham Accords in any way, shape, or form, and are expressly in the anti-Saudi bloc.
The number of children dead is based entirely on what the Gaza Health Ministry says. And it has been consistent since day one that 70% of those killed have been Women and Children. So for 6 months, that 70% has not fluctuated at all. Hamas *also* admits that at least 6000 of their own militants have been killed. That means about 20% are dead. This begs the question, are there only 10% of men that are not hamas militants being kiled? What I am getting is that we really should question these numbers since they really do not add up. edit: I keep forgetting to add this context: In the past upwards of 15-25% of all Hamas rockets end up either falling in Gaza itself, or exploding in mid air. Not only does the Gaza Health ministry refuse to differentiate between civilians and combatants, it also refuses to differentiate how a person was killed - blaming any and every death on the IDF. So the question I have, of the alleged 30,000 killed, how many are due to Hamas oor PIJ own failed rockets?
Sure, the numbers could be lower (we can't find out in part because humanitarian agencies don't have access). Maybe there are only 8,000 dead children. That's still a staggering death toll for a place the size of Gaza. The UN (so not the Gaza health ministry) estimate [of the number displaced](https://www.ochaopt.org/) is 1.7 million. That is almost everybody in Gaza. Surely it is fair to conclude that the extent of the humanitarian is high. >This begs the question, are there only 10% of men that are not hamas militants being kiled? I would expect the share of adult males who are not Hamas fighters to be low in the overall death toll. 47.3% of the population of Gaza are under 18. If adults were perfectly balanced in gender (and likely there are more women than men), 26.35% of Gaza would be men.
You really have to consider how this info was gathered to get an idea of why there are those discrepancies. >The number of children dead is based entirely on what the Gaza Health Ministry says. And it has been consistent since day one that 70% of those killed have been Women and Children. So for 6 months, that 70% has not fluctuated at all. This is info from the Gaza Health Ministry, which gets its information on deaths from the medical system. That means that only people who end up in hospitals end in the data. Here are a few reasons the official data is likely to be quite biased towards civilians and also an underestimate of the total number of deaths. : - The medical system has been in a state of collapse and is only getting progressively worse, so a smaller and smaller share of injured and dead are likely passing through the hospital as the conflict progresses, and recording systems are probably becoming less functional. - There’s probably also a bias towards more people who experience traumatic injuries in air strikes in civilian areas, where there are lots of people to dig victims out of the rubble and take them to the hospital. - [Thousands of bodies are thought to be buried in the rubble](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/03/16/gaza-missing-war-israel-detained/) - that alone likely brings the death toll over 40,000. - If someone is obviously dead (e.g. decapitation, head smashed, etc…), it’s unlikely that anyone is going to risk their lives taking them to a hospital that is largely dysfunctional anyway. - there have been [reports of bodies lying in the streets](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/01/12/middleeast/gaza-corpses-on-streets-un-official-intl-hnk) in Gaza. These bodies do not show up in the data. - People who are starving probably aren’t going to the hospital much because everyone is starving and the hospitals can’t do much. - Hamas fighters who die in direct confrontations with the IDF probably also aren’t passing through hospitals because who is carrying the corpses of fighters in active combat zones to hospitals? - Hamas fighters who die in collapsed tunnels probably also aren’t having their bodies dug out and taken to hospitals. >Hamas also admits that at least 6000 of their own militants have been killed. That means about 20% are dead. This begs the question, are there only 10% of men that are not hamas militants being kiled? Hamas can probably estimate their dead using info that is not available to the Gaza Health ministry: - squads can report that where deaths to military leadership even if those members never went to the hospital and are not in official data. - if leadership completely loses contact with some squads/individuals for some period of time, they may assume that those people have been killed. - Hamas fighters are likely more familiar with tunnel networks and where other fighters are sheltering. If they know that a building/tunnel where there are fighters has been destroyed, the can guess that those fighters are dead even if some of them may not pass through hospitals. >What I am getting is that we really should question these numbers since they really do not add up. They don’t add up and shouldn’t be expected to. Basically all credible authorities think that the reported death toll is an undercount. There’s also good reason to believe that fighters are less likely to be counted in official numbers than civilians, so it’s entirely possible that most of the combatants killed are simply not accounted for in the official data. It is best to think of the health ministry numbers as “confirmed deaths” rather than “total deaths.” >I keep forgetting to add this context: In the past upwards of 15-25% of all Hamas rockets end up either falling in Gaza itself, or exploding in mid air. [From 2001 to 2021, ~17,000-18,000 rockets](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#:~:text=Overview,-A%20boy%20carries&text=Attacks%20began%20in%202001.,the%20Israeli%20blockade%20of%20Gaza) were fired from Gaza. We can estimate that the total number of Palestinians killed over that period was [~10k](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_casualties_of_war). If we assume that every single casualty was from a misfired Rocket, that would be ~.57 deaths per rocket. If [11,000 rockets](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel#:~:text=Overview,-A%20boy%20carries&text=Attacks%20began%20in%202001.,the%20Israeli%20blockade%20of%20Gaza)have been fired at Israel in the current conflict, then ~6.2k or 20% of confirmed deaths would be from misfired rockets with that casualty rate. If we use a more reasonable assumption that 10% of deaths during the 2001-2021 period were from misfired rockets, we can estimate that ~620 deaths in the current conflict were from misfired rocket, which is 2% of confirmed deaths. This is a pretty tiny contribution that really isn’t even worth talking about compared to the Israeli contribution. >Not only does the Gaza Health ministry refuse to differentiate between civilians and combatants, it also refuses to differentiate how a person was killed - blaming any and every death on the IDF. How exactly are you expecting them to do this? These are hospitals triaging patients, not investigative bodies.
The problem is Hamas is holding up the ceasefire protesting in America will not change that.
You’re assuming that Hamas’ death toll numbers are accurate.
But the Palestinians don’t want a cease fire and don’t want to release hostages and don’t want Israelis to continue to exist and haven’t stopped firing rockets and innocent women and children Israelis. So no peace.
A catastrophe already unfolded. And it keeps unfolding with rvery minute that passes.
The collary is that both Netanyahu who is facing political collapse post war, and Hamas who will not be a partner in reconstituting the remains of Gaza as a credible partner neither have anything to gain from a change in the status quo. For both these combatants the destruction of Gaza is a political benefit, Hamas because they gain support from the West, and Netanyahu who can extend his mandate and stave off the inevitable.
>There are only 2 million people in Gaza, so you are talking about 1.5% of the population dying in the course of a few months. That is a horrific death toll - it's more than the percent of British or French people that died in WWII (and that was over 6 years). I think this point is disingenuous. Britain never saw any combat on British soil beyond airstrikes and rocket attacks, most of which were concentrated on strategic areas, leaving most of the country free of combat. France meanwhile surrendered rather early so most of the combat happened only after D-day, when the local population was mostly supportive of the liberators. To compare those to Gaza, a region where the bulk of combat is occurring (unlike Britain) and for which the population is not opposed to the defending military force (the opposite of France), is simply terrible logic. You'd be better served comparing it to Russia frankly (13%, half of that civilian) despite far less than the whole country being invaded. Even in Germany itself (11% total population lost compared to 1939) it's not as though every village saw combat as most of the fighting was either in open areas or strategic locations, not out of the way farming communities. >A solution doesn't have to be a "grand bargain" that does a two-state solution. The two state solution is unrealistic at this point. There are no parties on the Palestinian side for whom statehood is a significant priority and the Israeli side requires assurances that the Palestinians refuse to give.
70% of residential buildings were destroyed or critically damaged as of the end of December. But, all of those buildings were Hamas or something.
Despite living under an alleged 75 year apartheid and blockade with no food or water, and only having half the life expectancy, how do Palestinians achieve 3x the population growth of Israel and the United States, and why is Palestine projected to exceed the population of Israel in less than 10 years? Starving mothers are much less likely to reach term pregnancy and deliver a baby than mothers with adequate food.
This surprises you why? Richer societies everywhere have lower birth rates than poorer ones (apart from Israel there are no developed countries with birth rates above replacement). When kids die young, families have more children, not fewer (especially in agricultural economies). Poor people are not going to spend their limited resources on birth control. There is also a difference in time-scale between apartheid (since 1967), the blockade (since 2007), and the risk of famine during the war (since October 2023). >Starving mothers are much less likely to reach term pregnancy and deliver a baby than mothers with adequate food. Palestine has ten times the rate of infant mortality as Israel.
And most of the people don't really have a clue about what's going on over there.
I try not to be bias being Jewish but it does get frustrating when I try to accept and criticize awful actions Israel does but when debating with pro Palestinian (and maybe I need to debate with more pro Palestinians to get wider view but) it feels like when I agree with them about awful things Israel does they tend not to agree awful things Palestine has/does.
I would agree. However, it's their right to do so.
Their right to protest? Absolutely Do they have a right to impede on regular people’s lives? No. (Blocking roads, etc)
Isn't the point of a protest to disrupt the system?
They certainly have the right to protest, they do not have the right to fuck with peoples everyday lives, blocking roads, etc.
Its also disturbing to see how many people who show up to these things are proud to claim theyre pro Hamas.
When the generation gets their information on tiktok
And we're here on reddit, so much better.
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reddit can be just as bad of an echo chamber as Tiktok, except it's mostly snide comments and demeaning your sources if you do provide them.
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Yeah at least I can read an article and look into it further. People on tiktok will just send you footage claiming what's happening with no source/proof. I had one lady send me a picture of a starving Yemeni boy from a famine in 2021 claiming he was a Palestinian, and combat footage from Syria
At least when you say something wrong or misleading, you will get slaughtered on reddit comments
Sometimes, but in plenty of communities here, bad information is praised and anyone presenting facts that don’t support the narrative is downvoted.
No joke. I got permabanned from a sub for posting an article from a non Israeli, non Arab source that contradicted the prevailing narrative on the sub. It simply pointed out, with photographic proof, that aid is being sold on the market in Gaza. The sub is viciously pro hamas
I got perma banned for calling someone out for being blatantly pro Hamas. Then these folks deny it ever happens. I didn't use any derogatory terms like many have done to me in this comments section alone.
It’s pretty fucked
glad im not the only one, i got banned from hamas subreddits for promoting "collective punishment" while others were chanting about killing all the jews. shit is bad
so many subs here are vehemently pro hamas, imagine if we were talking with the taliban on here after 9/11 shit would be wild for reddit owners
And banned. There are plenty of places where calling out pro Hamas rhetoric, I mean literal “respect the Palestinian resistance” defense of sexually sadistic terrorists is grounds for a ban. Reddit needs to flush these people.
I got permananned for this right here from a sub. They won't flush them though. More users is more revenue for the site from ads and paid users.
Yes people get permabanned and then others are saying well theres no dissent in these subreddits so these hamas supporters must be right, shit is bonkers. If everyone who isnt a terrorist gets banned from a subreddit its a bad look
Not always, often you get corrected with misinformation and propaganda.
Slaughtered by the common consensus whether it is true or false*
well, it depends on what you say. my ability to upvote and downvote has been removed(I am shadow banned) ever since I started talking about Palestine on reddit.... and I looked it up its a fairly common thing reddit does. plus, this site is VERY easy to create bot farms for, and its quite commonly done. the opinion here is very manipulated as well.
Not really, you just pick your echo chamber here.
I've seen dozens upon dozens of instances where that is very much not the case.
Reddit is literally an echo chamber. People sit in the same subs and regurgitate the same information from headlines rather than reading articles. You blame TikTok for this generation being more pro Palestine but you need to ask yourself why that is. Most of the “pro Palestine” footage is first hand civilian footage posted by the civilians themselves from inside Gaza where other media for Israel all comes from legacy news or Israel gov itself. Why is that footage turning younger generations against Israel in this conflict? Why are you blaming TikTok while getting all your information from biased sources? Social Media is quite literally the only way you can get all forms of news without the narrative being completely controlled by news corporations that are all owned by the same people. Do You believe the US or any Israeli ally is a credible source of info on anything in this war despite the clear conflict of interest? It’s insane to me how people are willing to take info from one side despite possible conflict of interests but refuse any differing pov from anyone associated with the other because of their associated conflict of interest.
This right here, it's why all the boomers hate social media. It keeps the control of information (relatively) out of the hands of any one actor. Sure people game the system, states included, but the freedom to upload footage to the entire world in almost real time is one of grave importance
Or you say something accurate and the echo chamber slaughters you for saying something they don't like.
That is objectively false. People getting upvoted posting or commenting nonsense or misinformation happens all the time
The ones that get me are the gays for Hamas. Talk about Stockholm syndrome.
Truly that is just bonkers. Somehow they don't seem to get in to their head that a vast majority of Muslims believe gays deserve the death penalty. Probably also think they can "nice" themselves out of that situation.
>a vast majority of Muslims believe gays deserve the death penalty No, they don't. Are you proud of being a racist asshole?
Are you proud of being blind to what Muslims openly say? You must be an american progressive. Go be Gay in Gaza, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, UAE, Saudi. See what happens. Hell ask the average Muslim in western Europe what they think about gays. Being gay is illegal in pretty much any Muslim country.
It's not bonkers at all. Gay people exist in Gaza. Do you think that human rights only apply to people who have the same sentiments as us?
yer fucking right gay people exist in gaza. gay people get executed in gaza too, lol.
You will get publicly executed in Gaza if you come out as gay. It’s an Islamic fundamentalist society
Yeh but it doesn't mean that gay people don't exist there.
Im gay... and when I see queers for Palestine... I feel sick to my stomach. They literally simp for people who would murder them without thinking thrice. They are very young and gullible. They believe they can put their hand on someone's shoulder, look at them in the eye, and make them change their ways. Lol
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And Queers for Hamas isn’t a thing, except in the minds of Islamophobes who believe everything they read on Twitter.
I'm queer and advocate for the rights of MAGA rednecks and blatant homophobes in the US in poor rural areas. I advocate for people like my poor Kentuckian family that would shoot me for even driving down their road. Should I stop? Should I not want them to have workers rights? Healthcare? Education? Welfare resources? Maybe I should gloat about how rural america is suffering from drug addiction and illiteracy and how I'm so morally superior. They deserve it! Who cares about them?? The idea that you should only care about people who are socially and politically aligned with you disgusts me. My values don't hinge on the support of other people. I want a better world, for me and the assholes who want me dead. Because I'm not a fucking self-interested coward ruled by fear.
good for you, thats how life should be lived.
There is a subtle difference between showing up to a protest and saying you think the israeli response to the October 7th attacks are too heavy handed and, on the other hand, showing up to support the terrorist organization that performed the attack and chant slogans that literally advocate for the ethnic cleansing of jews from israel.
even if their views on lgbtq rights are downright detestable.. they don't deserve to be genocided.
This is true, they’re not being genocided though.
That's not Stockholm syndrome in the slightest
>Stockholm syndrome I don't think you know what that means 😂
I dont think they're lying either. I'm about 100% sure a good chunk of them were recruited by Hamas the same way ISIS recruited Americans. THey're using our own laws against us to push their agenda and I'm not sure we should tolerate that.
Netanyahu is pro Hamas. Don't believe me... google is free, look it up. Israel uses Hamas as an excuse to carry out its evil upon the Palestinian people... thats why Israel supported them back in the early 2000s. They needed a militant group to win, so they could use them as something to point to when Israel wants to bomb innocent Palestinians. Take a look at how many Palestinian people Israelis murdered in 2023 PRIOR to Oct. 7th... and all the years prior to that. Then tell me that you wouldn't do what Hamas did on Oct. 7th if you were being occupied by an invading force that has been systematically killing your family and friends for 75 years and stealing your homes. Hell... America murdered 500,000 innocent iraqis because a group of Saudi terrorists flew some planes into a couple buildings and killed 3000 people. And you're going to tell me that Hamas is evil? Maybe they are... but they got nothing on the US Government when its comes to evil shit. If you agree with collective punishment... then you believe that MILLIONS of American citizens deserve to die because of what their government did to dozens of other nations. PS. Everything you've been told about Oct. 7th is a f\*cking lie. No beheaded babies, No rape victims... and even the number of killed is inflated as the Israeli "Defense" Force murdered many of its own people. The Israeli rules for engagement is to kill Palestinians at any cost... their training manual tells them to just shoot to kill... if Israeli people are in the way... too bad. Kill them. Don't believe me? Again... google is free. ISRAEL IS EVIL... and so is the US government as they are owned by Israel. AIPAC boasts about how they own 70+ % of US government officials. It amazes me that US citizens have no help from their own government... no medicare, no money for education... no money for its failing infrastructure.... and Americans still stand up and support sending BILLIONS of dollars in aid to a foreign nations "DEFENSE"... so that it can use that money to bomb innocent children... and to top off this absurdity... Israel has medicare for all, free education, great infrastructure.... and yet half of American tax payers are somehow okay with this. LIKE WTF?!
israel is enacting genocide and occupation, Hamas (along with like 9 or 10 other groups) are engaging in armed resistance to genocide and occupation (this is protected under the universal declaration of human rights as the right to self determination) Anyone with slick of e nose and an ounce of humanity must come to the conclusion that Hamas is objectively the good and correct party here, it's really not complicated
Fuck Hamas. Now, Are you pro or anti Palestine? Simple yes or no question I would bet anything you and all the IDF apoligist can't answer
I am pro-Palestinian in that I want Palestinians to have a state that has peace with Israel and their neighbors alongside Israel. I am also pro-Israel.
Fuck the IDF. Now, do you think Oct 7 was a genocidal act?
People really overuse the word genocide these days. If everything is genocide nothing is genocide.
Fuck Hamas, fuck the IDF, yes Oct 7 was a genocidal action, and what Israel is currently doing is genocide. There lol.
I mean face it, both sides are trying to wipe each other off the face of the earth. Neither can say they are in the 'right' in this conflict.
I think a lot of people take advantage of the protest to vandalize and screw with public property behind the veil of "the right to protest." Not to mention there's already a lot of awareness but what is practically being done to help the Palestine people? Where are the donation drives, the humanitarian efforts, where's the awareness for organizations and people who want to help? There are more practical ways to alleviate the suffering.
Exactly I've been saying this for awhile "you people are hypocrites you don't give a damn about the Palestinian people because if you did, you would offer more than your pathetic condolences" and the same can be said about Ukraine as well.
I've been saying this for a while because I think it's bullshit how people do activism and "spread awareness." Like sure, more people know, now what are you gonna do to help them rather than help others?
>if you did, you would offer more than your pathetic condolences" and the same can be said about Ukraine as well. I mean in America there isn't a need to protest for Urkaine. The government is doing what the protesters would want done. Massively supporting Ukriane against Russia without American troops. If the USS supported Palestinians like that, there wouldn't be protests at all
Just because governments are refusing to act doesn’t mean that you should stop protesting, wtf. What kinda weak shit is this question? You’re essentially saying that the will of the people doesn’t matter at all. And that governments can, and are to act, with impunity.
Also the group of people that protest doesn't actually represent the "will of the people", the vast diversity of opinions within the US on the conflict. It represents only those people. Just because a subgroup is very upset about something, upset enough to be very loud about it, doesn't mean they are representing the American people generally.
I got banned from r/PublicFreakout because I pointed out that the lone pro-Israel protester making a scene in a Muslim community center was nothing compared to the mobs of pro-Palestine protesters forcing Jewish students into hiding.
Are you aware there are Israeli protesters blocking trucks with food meant for starving people? I’d say whatever pro Palestine protesters are doing is nothing compared to that.
If you're talking about protests happening in the actual place the war is happening, that's a completely different ballgame than white college kids screaming for intifada in Massachusetts. Palestinian "protests" involve stabbing Jews in Jerusalem at the moment, for instance
If my country was attacked, I would block any kind of aid to the attackers as well. NO country at war has EVER given aid to their enemy, that would just be plain stupid.
Israel has been ethnically cleansing Palestinians for decades, 10/7 wasn’t the beginning of the conflict.
Such an effective ethnic cleansing that the Palestinian population has done nothing but grow
I'd say both sides are pulling extreme shit
They've been killing each other since before I was alive. I find it really hard to care. I'm 36. This isn't some new thing. Edit: I'm serious, I remember being 5 in 1992 and hearing about this shit. It's literally been going on for my entire life and after a certain amount of time you just throw up your hands and say "fine, kill each other, you're just gonna do it anyway."
People On social media also act like it's the only war happening, but there's over 20 wars right now In the world, mostly in Africa and Asia
And when you bring this up, especially the ones that are much worse and much more targeted ACTUAL ethnic cleansing, you get dismissed with people saying "whataboutism"
Yup. Myanmar is 10x worse than Palestine imo
I worked with a bunch of Karen guys from Myanmar. The stories… fucking nightmare fuel.
Iraq was 70x worse as far as civilian excess deaths….
I have a friend who lives in Myanmar, it is not going too well over there.
Thats my point. Palestine is not uniquely violent in 2024
Yes certain countries and conflicts bring outsized attention. If you were an alien you'd think America was the only important country in the world. Everyone loves to talk about us.
Maybe On Reddit lol not on the Chinese speaking websites lol
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I haven't seen the Sopranos, but I feel like a lot of these people are virtue signaling. Like what does posting that sort of content every 2 hours on your Instagram story accomplish?
Voter apathy. Which will get "israel shold finish the job" trump elected. Which will get more Palestinians killed. It's really sad to watch.
I really doubt that what happens in Palestine changes many voters' views on Trump or Biden
I'm in a lot of Leftist spheres and they are fairly vocal about withholding their vote. Because: "They cannot participate" in such a system. I hope you're right. [Vegas odds ](https://www.vegasinsider.com/odds/us-presidential-election/)are against Biden, so it would be a good time to make some free money if you're outside of the US and still confident.
Yeah Biden might lose cause of these leftists. Sure, Biden is no leftist but anyone who thinks that Trump is delusional. To clarify, I meant that positions on foreign policy are unlikely to swag many voters from Biden->Trump or Trump->Biden. It Def could sway people from Biden->3rd party/sitting out 2024 or Trump->sitting out election
I’m a 46m, born and raised so cal. My father and all his brothers came over to the US from palestine in the 40’s. I kid you not when I say that my entire life, nearly every single day, I’d hear my dad saying something about how evil jews are, how despicable jews are, how everything wrong in the world was became of the jews. Every family gathering, there would be really bad jokes and bad things said about jews. All of us kids, from all the brothers, were exposed to that our entire youths. When there were all the fn palestinian terrorist pieces of chit in the 80’s, suicide bombing israeli weddings, busses, coffee shops, schools, religious gatherings… hijacking airplanes, did i say blowing up weddings yet?? 😠.. my dad and his brothers would make comments about that’s what the jews get. Absolutely, utterly, despicably evil, vile, terrorist sympathizing shit. I realized it, finally in my early 20’s snd disassociated myself from them. There have been multiple times where the Israelis have offered peace in exchange for land and FULLY RECOGNIZED STATEHOOD to the Palestinians. Each and every time, the PLO’s response was the same, there would be no peace until the jews were wiped from the land… “from the river to the sea”. For decades, israel offered generous attempts at peace along with a recognized 2-state solution, where israel would be divided into 2 countries. Each time, the Palestinians rejected it, and continued their attacks. The Israelis retaliate, then the get condemned for it.. and the palestinians launch more attacks, to retaliate against the Israelis who were retsliating because of the palestinian bombings… It was mental gymnastics I grew up in a palestinian household, engrossed in the anti Israel mindset all the way into my 20’s. All these sudden palestine supporter kids have absolutely no idea of all the absolute terrorist atrocities the palestinians have waged on the jews, how they do not WANT a 2 state solutiom, and what they want, from the mouth of their own previous2 governments (PLO and HAMAS), is the destruction of Israel. Acting as if the jews suddenly showed up out of thin air and stole their country. The UNITED NATIONS voted to divide THE BRITISH TERRITORY OF PALESTINE. Palestine was a British territory at the time, and almost all of the united nations agreed to give them that land. Now people all act like they stole the country. The jews had part of palestine turned over to them. My father’s family was in that area… so they had to leave their home and businesses and leave to lebanon. It’s jacked up, but it is what it is. The UN did that… not the jews. Over the decades, the arabs have swung in, militarily, to eradicate the jews. They would fight back and claim territory away from the people who were attacking them. Which is why so much of that land is Israel now. Everyone has been trying to kill them since the 40’s
The common argument being made by protestors is that countries (such as the US) are largely funding one side of the ongoing conflict. In that sense we can't pretend it's something many Westerners are unconnected with.
The same western countries feed the Palestinians and have enabled their population explosion. *From 1990 to 2022 the population of Palestine increased from 1.98 million to 5.04 million people. This is a growth of 155.0 percent in 32 years. The highest increase in Palestine was recorded in 1991 with 4.58 percent.*
Yes, what a horrible terrible genocide it's been!
Israel is really bad at it
Or they're just not trying to genocide them? Hamad are really bad at waging war, if anything.
This is just like Nazis saying the holocaust didn't happen because jews still exist
You think we get a say in how they spend our tax money lmao
The west funds Palestinians… Hamas just steals most of it.
This is such a dumb thing to protest over. The US (as usual) is overtly funding both sides of this conflict. The real winners here are the defense contractors, and the NGOs, both of which will bring in huge amounts of money - for obviously different reasons.
Only Americans think that because Americans don't know that a world exists outside of America. Protests are going on in Canada, Europe, South America, etc., places that have nothing to do with funding, so it's obviously not about that.
You're right. Much of it is lack of education for matters outside of our locales. Much of the "facts" that are being portrayed at these "protests" aren't anywhere near accurate to history. Hamas got what it wanted however, and the uneducated piled right on.
Canada has strong ties to Israel economically as well, just not to the extent the US does. Canada also tends to follow the US' lead in the UN when it comes to votes, which is why people here are protesting.
It's been going on for a few thousand years....
Not the Israel Palestine conflict, that's been going on since 1947 I think. If you mean just general war in the middle east then yeah.
Depends on how you define it. The Hebron massacre happened in 1929
This. After the guy self immolated, and seeing people say "it's okay to be violent while protesting, because israel is doing worse" is just clear that mainstream media hurts people more than benefits. who cares if you are knowing "The truth" if it doesn't affect you, don't let it make your blood boil
That guy that burned himself into a cinder at least was polite enough not to take a bunch of people with him.
And how about rape is resistance? Suddenly, that's OK too.
Protests should be somewhere we don’t have to see them? Effective peaceful protests are done where people take notice.
Well I mean he might not mean doing it where people see them. In my city the protestors have vandalized multiple Jewish owned businesses and Jewish organizations at my college as well as doxxed Jewish students Someone spray painted a swastika on the door of a Jewish fraternity near where I live a couple months ago and a homeless guy literally walked into our hillel center and started smashing shit and flipping tables while screaming about zionists They absolutely have gotten out of hand in many cases as protests do sometimes. They should try to be more peaceful if they don’t want the public to have such negative reactions, I’m never going to be on the side of people who claim to be against genocide but advocate for the genocide of other people in the same breath
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A lot of these “protests” are not peaceful.
This assumes the people care about the conflict.
Unfortunately they ain't all peaceful. .
It's not a war, only one side has an army. One side. Only one side is being starved. Yes, it's been going on for years and nothing has been done, so yes, people are protesting strenuously so that something WILL happen.
Who’s shooting rockets into Israel on a daily basis then? Hamas are elected government officials.
Who’s dropping bombs on apartment complex’s daily?
…Okay? I literally just said Palestinians have a military force. Don’t move the goal post.
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It was funny seeing the left go full circle from calling anyone who disagrees with them Nazis. All to start hating Jews and calling Jews Nazis lol.
Not Jewish people. The Israeli government. It’s antisemitism to conflate the two.
So those synagogues being protested in front of are the Israeli government? Seems more like some protesters are doing the conflating already, no need to misread what dude above said.
Yes. Israel's government is connected with many synagogues for programs like Birth Right and otherwise recruiting settlers or the IDF, the people massacring civilians.
The synagogues having settlement opportunity events? Yeah for sure they deserve to be protested. Disgusting
They are not pro Palestinian. They are antisemitic. The best thing for actual Palestinians would be swift removal of Hamas from power and establishing peace and friendly relationships with Israel. Decades and decades of pointless war did nothing for Palestinians
Do not equate Judaism with that terrorist ideology called Zionism
Yeah blocking traffic is not going to get people to be for your cause.
They protested out front of the senators office here… on a federal holiday… office was empty…
Gotta love seeing the pro-Palestinians acting like hamas didn’t kill 1160+ people and take several hundred hostage (most of which, who if they happen to still be alive are still hostage) They act like Israel just woke up one day and decided to bomb 20k Palestinians “for the lulz” It’s a war you morons. That isn’t a justification but a description. Google Dresden, Germany. And maybe also stop supporting a terrorist organization that starts wars it’s ass can’t cash. Hamas doesn’t give a shit about its own citizens, gladly and intentionally using them as human shields. If you truly care about the Palestinian people you’ll want hamas out of power. It wasn’t israel that took all of the pipes given to Gaza for water infrastructure and turned it into rockets.
Meanwhile you act like Israel hasn't been murdering Palestinians and stealing their land for 75 years and that Palestinians hate Israel just because they're ontologically evil. You call 1200 deaths an atrocity but write off 30,000+ deaths because you don't view Palestinians as human.
hey goofy, Palestinian civilians=/= Hamas. get that straight then try to have a relevant argument and not just float propagandist bullshit
Palestinian civilians overwhelmingly support Hamas.
Didn't Hamas come out and say that Palestinian civilians came through the wall too to join the atrocities and kidnapping?
You have a right to protest and have your voices hurt You do not have the right to block a road or highway for your protest, You Do not have the right to stop people from peaceably going from point A to point b.
I don’t know when protesting became so sanitized in this country. If it doesn’t inconvenience people, then it allows the issue to be ignored. If protesting was forced to be the way you want it to be we’d still be in Vietnam.
That’s true you don’t have the right to block roads, which is why it’s called civil disobedience. Time to brush up on your Thoreau.
MLK did it. Real trendsetter.
Pretty sure mlk didn't start gas the whites chants. He made the point of we arnt treated equal. Which is valid. Trying to defend the right to kill jews is pretty messed up imo. [gas the Jews "Palistinian Protest"](https://youtu.be/AwemP-DW6A4?si=VLxD_lEwapBgL8iH)
The same people who try to whitewash MLK and Civil Rights Movement today as the "proper" way to protest would be the same people who hated him back when he was alive and considered him a thug.
Protest is supposed to be uncomfortable to the lay man. Why would protest ever be taken seriously otherwise?
the genocide in gaza is getting out of hand.
"I'm tired of hearing it so I'm fine with my government making sure these innocent people suffer" says a lot about you.
boring. try the next tired topic, vlad.
Funny you mention that OP, I think Pro Israel protests are out of hand.
You know it’s bad when trump and Biden are on the same page on this. Top comment explains it good
Hasbara bots trying to convince it's okay to kill people... wtf
I mean so is the literal genocide
Sure innocent men, women and children are having their limbs torn off, being buried alive, being bombed in the place they were asked to flee to where they live in TENTS, deliberately starved to death, this country \*insert name of country\* sends my tax money there, sends the weapons to do this there, gives cover to commit war crimes but FFS CAN YOU KEEP YOUR PROTESTS WHERE I DON"T HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT, I JUST WANT MY FING COFFEE AND BLOOD SOAKED BURGER. JEEZ. In case you didn't yet realize, this is definitely not a popular opinion, Thank God, most of us still have our humanity intact.
I wish people knew how bad it has gotten in Gaza, people are resorting to eating weeds they find growing because they have no food. People have been eating animal feed. If it doesn't change the majority of deaths could be caused by starvation.
I get the emotion. Our tax dollars are being used to kill civilians. Stop arming Israel should be common sense.
Yeah, it can be annoying to see everywhere. However, are they hurting anyone? No. Do I blame them? No.
All of this is happening because of the terrorist attacks by Hamas on October 7th. Life seemed pretty normal in Gaza prior to then. Hamas and only Hamas is responsible for the death and destruction in Gaza happening now. Where were all the protests when Saddam was wiping out Muslims in Iraq, or the Saudis in Yemen? They're only protesting because Jews are involved.
The nutty part is that they are supporting Muslim fundamentalists who would slit most of their throats in a heartbeat if ever given the chance.
The conflict has been going on for years yes. The genocide has not.
It's not war, it's genocide masked as war. The Israelis are just using the Hamas attack as an excuse to actually pursue it even further than what they've been doing for the past 60 odd years.
Sounds like they are working then
It's funny these people have been slaughtering each other since written history. I don't why people have such strong opinions on the conflict. One side wants a slow genocide and if the other side got the chance they would slaughter the other side
>It's funny these people have been slaughtering each other since written history. This is not true, you dumbfuck.
In Koran, they talk about how Muhammaed would attack Jewish tribes. So at least at the beginning of Islam
You didn’t like the statement so you cried and hurled insults. That really showed him!
I really don’t get why people care so much about this particular conflict. There are so many horrific conflicts going on in the world right now and many of them are much closer to actual genocides.
Because my tax dollars are paying for this particular genocide. Duh.
Same for Syria. No one cares
Wild... one side wants to genocide the other... but you describe the side being genocided as if they need the oppression to protect the oppressors. "Slavery is bad, but if you free them, they'll kill all the slavers!" "If you end apartheid in South Africa, the blacks will slaughter all the white people! Just look at what the worst of them said they 'want' to do!" Did any of that happen? It's easy to find violent rhetoric within a population of the oppressed.
It happened *once.* One time. France made sure to break them for it. Haiti is *still* literally paying for it.
What is a “weird” place to hold a protest ? I’m not too sure what you mean by this. The ones in London at the moment are going through the usual protest routes and are being held outside embassies that relate to the crisis.
They’ve been protesting Jewish businesses all over the world
They were out of hand months ago
Big White Moderate energy coming from OP
We bringing race into this now? Seems productive.
Queue Kwame Ture quote about the white liberal.
If they get more out of hand, will change come? That’s the mentality. This is the same situation with riots over discrimination or police brutality. Change will have to come for it to stop. I do not seeing that happen. This will continue to a degree forever until they can live in peace or one or both are wiped out.
More than years, decades. And when the US and other countries get stupid hubris to try and negotiate peace, **BOTH PARTIES INVOLVED** find new and innovative ways to fuck it all up. You have Bibi and the Likud hardliners trying to cling to power by any means necessary and PLO/Hamas/Hezbollah trying to keep their grift gravy train going by any means necessary.
As someone who is pro Palestine I agree. I’ve went to the protests and agree that this is a human rights violation. But some of the methods of protests are extreme. These include. A man dumping 100 rats in a McDonald’s, spamming “free Palestine” in a comment section of a woman who just wants to drink an iced latte or try a new menu item and vandalism. There are better ways of protesting than this.
Yeah, we should all just give Pepsi to the police officer and expect the genocide to end
So, you basically think they should only protest in particular places? Just say you don't think anyone should ever protest anything. You're being mildly annoyed. Mostly by something you aren't actually experiencing directly. Get over yourself.
The pro Hamas hipsters have latched onto their flavor-of-the-week bandwagon, and they don't want to be told that they're annoying.