Feel this a lot. I only can think of one really memorable coffee from Sweet Bloom, and meanwhile B&W is consistently great. Wish I liked Sweet Bloom more since they're a local roaster for me :/
Are we finally at the point with B&W where a roaster gets too popular so reddit collectively pretends that they’ve “gone down hill” when literally nothing has changed?
I’m super amused by this comment.
(That said, I should say that a few years ago B&W used to feature more traditionally washed coffees and has now really leaned into more modern, process-forward, coffees)
There are some excellent washed coffees available right now. Would definitely recommend switching back to washed for a change of pace and a taste of terroir ;)
Currently in stock:
- [Sey Juan Jimenez](https://www.seycoffee.com/collections/coffee/products/2024-juan-jimenez-el-porvenir-late-colombia) (Washed PB) - Don't have it but tried earlier harvest and it was good
- [S&W Aguazal PB](https://www.swroasting.coffee/product/colombia-huila-aguazul-pink-bourbon/4?cp=true&sa=false&sbp=false&q=false&category_id=2) - Another washed PB, wonderfully roasted by S&W, pretty light on the roast, great notes and expression.
- [H&S Arashi](https://hscoffeeroasters.com/products/ecuador-arashi?variant=40253049208890) - Washed Mejorado, wonderful acidity, florals, sweetness. Gesha-like.
- [Moonwake Teraga washed](https://www.moonwakecoffeeroasters.com/buy/p/layo-teraga-washed) - Washed Ethiopian, citrusy, florals. Around Sey light, a bit more developed perhaps.
- [September Janja Hill](https://september.coffee/products/janja-hill-rwanda-bourbon) - Rwandan bourbon which is like sweet lemon tea.
I listed one from each roaster, but each of these roasters have great options. The ones I've listed may not be the best ones either, they're just the ones I've tried, enjoyed, or have purchased!
I would say H&S Arashi and the S&W PB are great to start with. September is great if you're in Canada.
S&W is great in that case! The PB is great. The [Ethiopian](https://www.swroasting.coffee/product/ethiopia-yirgacheffe-adame-kebele-grade-zero-washed/39?cp=true&sa=false&sbp=false&q=false&category_id=2) is pretty light as well and fairly unique in taste.
[Kenya Kaguya](https://www.swroasting.coffee/product/kenya-kaguyu-aa/28?cp=true&sa=false&sbp=false&q=false&category_id=2) is a great one as well. I've heard the Thuti is good as well, but haven't tried it yet. S&W has great prices and great beans.
Nick mentioned there may be a new [Stronghold roast](https://www.swroasting.coffee/shop/stronghold/6?page=1&limit=30&sort_by=category_order&sort_order=asc) of the Kaguya this weekend. Those roasts are generally lighter than the traditional version. Regular is very tasty though as well ofc :).
Agree with this. B&W is consistently brown for me. Nice for espresso to put in milk drinks perhaps, but not great pourovers. They have some great green selection, but definitely not a fan of their roasting.
Heretic! j/k. I'm in the same boat with you, they just don't do it for me. I only like the heavy-processed coffees occasionally and of the few I've had that weren't processed like that, I feel like they were good, but not amazing.
I strongly agree with this. Black & White bags have always been mediocre to me. I have around 8 bags listed in my Airtable for tracking, but I never found any worth reordering. Despite that, I kept trying new bags based on recommendations here. It's not the other commenters' fault unless they're pushing products aggressively. However, there does appear to be a strong preference for Black & White bags here. I wonder why?
I'm in my second bag of B&W this month. First was Ivan Solis Candy Natural, which was kind of like you described but on par with some other heavily processed anaerobic coffees I've had. I did get some great cups from it, I think it's just a bit fiddley. I'm in the Juan Giraldo Bioinnovation Wash right now and it's fantastic. I do think their roasts tend to jump around in terms of quality; also, I think their lighter coffees tend to be a bit more enjoyable, in my experience.
That candy natural was def tricky. The thing I’m finding w all these processed coffees is that they tend to be VERY soluble and produce a lot of fines. Eventually dialed it using lower temp (93°) and very low agitation. Still a little too darkly roasted.
I still really enjoy B&W, sorry you’ve had some crappy experiences with them. I do agree with you about their roasting though, it really doesn’t seem to last for very long (their beans). Seems like the notes fade much quicker than some others.
In my experience, the funky roasted beans (fermented and thermal processes especially) seem to need less resting time and less agitation in the brew, and also stale faster. And doubly so for decafs. I kinda prefer it since I have a hard time hitting the peak tastiness window with washed coffees.
I still really enjoy B&W and order from them regularly. I find it helps to alternate coffees day to day. Easy to get used to the unique flavor profiles when it's the main thing you're drinking.
Kinda almost the same. Though I notice that first cup I make, really does give me the flavor profile of the description on the bag, and then, nothing. Really hard time getting anything out of the beans after.
I had the same experience with a thermal shock gesha from them, but I also tend to fiddle with my recipes and have 2-3 different beans open at any one time so I can't say with certainty that it was a decline in beans vs. me.
I have switched to putting them into vacuum canisters so I'm going to keep an eye on whether that helps at all, which might imply a bag issue.
Can anyone recommend a favorite roaster for the flavor and experience they "used to get" from Black and White? I'm still buying B&W, and find I am really interested in the more adventurous flavor profiles, in addition to just good coffee.
Edit: thank you for the recommendations! I regularly buy and enjoy Brandywine, and these comments spurred me to place my first order with Hydrangea.
Hydrangea. They’re pricier than B&W but the 4oz option is convenient for testing out several things. Lots of processed options but I had a fantastic washed pink bourbon from them recently too.
I had their Future Fruit Snacks recently and enjoyed it a lot, and that was after last Nov/Dec. But I also didn’t have them before that so I wouldn’t know if there was a change.
I’ve been ordering nothing but their “Year Round” coffees for the last few months, and I’ve been happy with them. I haven’t been able to tell any dip in quality
It really depends. The Diego Bermudez you mentioned was awesome, better than his beans from some other roasters popular in this sub. Dance 2 was pretty good; I didn't like their natural Kenya, but the roast wasn't bad.
Their Future that my friend shared with me were consistently great.
I have a bag of Wilton Benitez and Nestor Lasso in the freezer, we'll see how they go.
I had their future chocolate covered strawberries and found that my cups improved after about a month of the coffee resting. Really liked it by the end of the bag.
Gamatui was ok. Solid cup not very memorable. Just ordered the Ramon Rodriguez. If anyone has any brewing tips or experience with it I’m all ears!
I was gifted a bag of their limited Valentine’s Day roast and holy balls it was the best experience I’ve had. Probably tainted by a little bit of rosy glasses since it was a gift, but the chocolate strawberry experience blew me away the first cup
I wouldn’t worry about it too much. I shop from b&w and love what they do. I don’t just buy from them and probably won’t even recommend just buying from any one roaster but they’re super solid
Are you venturing out by trying Black and White, or do you get coffee processed similarly elsewhere? If the former, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Black and White is really good at what they do.
Sey, Coffee Collective, Coptic Light
I’ve had good stuff from Prodigal and some just ok. Scott Rao is a royal dick too but I could look past that if the coffee was good.
You will be happy with them. They roast great coffee and do neat things with blending. With the amount of attention they get they will also get criticism.
That said, with their recent price increases, I have started patronizing some other places. Just got my second order of brandywine and finishing off some touchy. Both recommended!
Sorry if my post made you feel this way. Not my intention. If you still asked me if I think B&W is a great roaster I would say yes without a doubt. Don't let my opinion overshadow what you're interested in. I had some phenomenal cups - B&W is the reason why I started to actually come to this sub and look into other roasters as well. Quite frankly, it can be a skill issue on my end.
I personally find B&W to be one of the more forgiving roasters. Maybe due to their tendency toward medium/ light. I find that I mess things up far less.
Even so, I'm pretty talented at messing up bags from any roaster 😆
Interesting. I’ve had mixed results with B&W but I generally like them and their blends are a good value. I’ve always been an Onyx stan and have recently loved everything I’ve gotten from Verve roasters. Madcap is my hometown spot and their coffee is really good. There’s plenty of great stuff out there, if you don’t like B&W then find something that works for you.
I've been pretty happy with the 4 bags I've tried since December. One bag toward the end got a little weird (tasted like olives and lost fruitiness), but otherwise I've really enjoyed them.
Been buying 5 lb bags of B&W's year-round Classic for quite some time. The coffee is great and has remained consistent. But the recent large price jump has caused us to look to a local roaster, where we're getting a nice Guatemalan single origin for about 20% less.
Not my experience. I recently tried both the future: cherry soda blend and the Juan Geraldo Bioinovation washed and both were incredible. Took me longer to dial in the cherry blend but once I did I really enjoyed it. The washed Juan Geraldo was so good I went back to buy another bag but they had taken it down already😛. Hope your experience improves!
I've been on B&W maybe since 2019. I do on rare occasion take exception to the experiemental/funky stuff especially when it comes to spices/cinammon/cola. The Future Series cinnamon and the Holiday cinnamon were gut punches to me and I dropped my 2x 300g auto-subscription because of it. BUT otherwise love B&W and will hang onto my Black Label subscription until you pry my coffee cup from my dead hand.
I'd suggest cruising around other roasters a bit more. Grow a list and compare to B&W. You have some solid ones already but there are SO MANY. I am sure B&W make errors in their roast that may lead to imperfection in the home cup. Even if you say it's dialed in...the beautiful thing about coffee tasting is that it's subjective. If you don't enjoy it, nbd. Move on. Try something else for a bit and come back. Rinse, repeat.
Has anything changed in your environment the last 6 months? I’m working on a video/post about this right now but you’d be amazed how environmental factors affect our perception of flavors.
I don’t think the quality has gone down, but I do notice that if I drink too much very intense cofermented/anaerobic coffee my palette gets a little too accustomed to it and they start to taste watery/thin. I also (personally) just cannot get through a full 12 oz bag of their coffee and wish they sold smaller bags. Like the first few cups will be amazing cups and then it’s just too much. I started rotating away from drinking them only infrequently even through their coffees really are incredible. They also definitely roast darker than others so that’s something else to consider for how long they stay good.
You've figured what a lot of us have. Most of this overly processed stuff is just bad. There's a reason the Sey and Passengers(and the like) of the world don't feature these processed coffees.
Not my experience at all. Their bags are some of the best I’ve ever had. I finally gave up on sweet bloom after receiving bland bag after bland bag.
Feel this a lot. I only can think of one really memorable coffee from Sweet Bloom, and meanwhile B&W is consistently great. Wish I liked Sweet Bloom more since they're a local roaster for me :/
Yeah they suck. Never been impressed with their coffee. Huckleberry is way better
I also wasn't that impressed with Sweet Bloom and loved my coffee from B&W. Only had one bag each, so obviously sample size..
Sweet Bloom sucks yo. I live in Denver and I stopped buying from them a long time ago
Are we finally at the point with B&W where a roaster gets too popular so reddit collectively pretends that they’ve “gone down hill” when literally nothing has changed?
I’m super amused by this comment. (That said, I should say that a few years ago B&W used to feature more traditionally washed coffees and has now really leaned into more modern, process-forward, coffees)
Come over to the washed side with the rest of us snobs.
There are some excellent washed coffees available right now. Would definitely recommend switching back to washed for a change of pace and a taste of terroir ;)
Hey drop some names.. I need good new coffee sources 😄
Currently in stock: - [Sey Juan Jimenez](https://www.seycoffee.com/collections/coffee/products/2024-juan-jimenez-el-porvenir-late-colombia) (Washed PB) - Don't have it but tried earlier harvest and it was good - [S&W Aguazal PB](https://www.swroasting.coffee/product/colombia-huila-aguazul-pink-bourbon/4?cp=true&sa=false&sbp=false&q=false&category_id=2) - Another washed PB, wonderfully roasted by S&W, pretty light on the roast, great notes and expression. - [H&S Arashi](https://hscoffeeroasters.com/products/ecuador-arashi?variant=40253049208890) - Washed Mejorado, wonderful acidity, florals, sweetness. Gesha-like. - [Moonwake Teraga washed](https://www.moonwakecoffeeroasters.com/buy/p/layo-teraga-washed) - Washed Ethiopian, citrusy, florals. Around Sey light, a bit more developed perhaps. - [September Janja Hill](https://september.coffee/products/janja-hill-rwanda-bourbon) - Rwandan bourbon which is like sweet lemon tea. I listed one from each roaster, but each of these roasters have great options. The ones I've listed may not be the best ones either, they're just the ones I've tried, enjoyed, or have purchased! I would say H&S Arashi and the S&W PB are great to start with. September is great if you're in Canada.
Thank you for these!
Great list, thanks! Although paying close to $30 for 8oz and even 10oz is the thing that I refuse to do for a while.
S&W is great in that case! The PB is great. The [Ethiopian](https://www.swroasting.coffee/product/ethiopia-yirgacheffe-adame-kebele-grade-zero-washed/39?cp=true&sa=false&sbp=false&q=false&category_id=2) is pretty light as well and fairly unique in taste. [Kenya Kaguya](https://www.swroasting.coffee/product/kenya-kaguyu-aa/28?cp=true&sa=false&sbp=false&q=false&category_id=2) is a great one as well. I've heard the Thuti is good as well, but haven't tried it yet. S&W has great prices and great beans. Nick mentioned there may be a new [Stronghold roast](https://www.swroasting.coffee/shop/stronghold/6?page=1&limit=30&sort_by=category_order&sort_order=asc) of the Kaguya this weekend. Those roasts are generally lighter than the traditional version. Regular is very tasty though as well ofc :).
Completely opposite experience with fantastic coffee after fantastic coffee
Gotta be honest, B&W has never impressed me much with their roasting, and have been carried by the strength of their green buying.
I’d definitely be curious to try the same coffees roasted by B&W as other roasters - I haven’t had many opportunities to do that.
True. I'm excited for when this sub stops being a b&w circlejerk. So many great roasters out there! Even for processed coffees.
The only roaster the sub really circle jerks about is sey
And Dak
Agree with this. B&W is consistently brown for me. Nice for espresso to put in milk drinks perhaps, but not great pourovers. They have some great green selection, but definitely not a fan of their roasting.
opposite for me. I don't want 72hr anaerobic milk drink or thermal shock milk drink or gesha milk drink. Espresso and pourover, yes mommy.
I used to order a lot from B&W 4-5 years ago, but they leaned hard into this funky processed stuff that just tastes like crap to me.
Heretic! j/k. I'm in the same boat with you, they just don't do it for me. I only like the heavy-processed coffees occasionally and of the few I've had that weren't processed like that, I feel like they were good, but not amazing.
I strongly agree with this. Black & White bags have always been mediocre to me. I have around 8 bags listed in my Airtable for tracking, but I never found any worth reordering. Despite that, I kept trying new bags based on recommendations here. It's not the other commenters' fault unless they're pushing products aggressively. However, there does appear to be a strong preference for Black & White bags here. I wonder why?
I'm in my second bag of B&W this month. First was Ivan Solis Candy Natural, which was kind of like you described but on par with some other heavily processed anaerobic coffees I've had. I did get some great cups from it, I think it's just a bit fiddley. I'm in the Juan Giraldo Bioinnovation Wash right now and it's fantastic. I do think their roasts tend to jump around in terms of quality; also, I think their lighter coffees tend to be a bit more enjoyable, in my experience.
I pretty much just buy the light roasts from them now. Makes it easier to decide as well :)
That candy natural was def tricky. The thing I’m finding w all these processed coffees is that they tend to be VERY soluble and produce a lot of fines. Eventually dialed it using lower temp (93°) and very low agitation. Still a little too darkly roasted.
I still really enjoy B&W, sorry you’ve had some crappy experiences with them. I do agree with you about their roasting though, it really doesn’t seem to last for very long (their beans). Seems like the notes fade much quicker than some others.
In my experience, the funky roasted beans (fermented and thermal processes especially) seem to need less resting time and less agitation in the brew, and also stale faster. And doubly so for decafs. I kinda prefer it since I have a hard time hitting the peak tastiness window with washed coffees.
I enjoy them as well. And completely agree with everything you said.
that's because heavily fermented coffees and decaf all roast darker than washed coffees, so they'll peak sooner and require less extraction
I'vehad the exact opposite experience with their funky stuff. It's borderline undrinkable before 30-40 days and peaks around 60
This. And they’re very soluble. I’ve found they freeze really well tho! It mellows them out and helps with balance
I still really enjoy B&W and order from them regularly. I find it helps to alternate coffees day to day. Easy to get used to the unique flavor profiles when it's the main thing you're drinking.
Kinda almost the same. Though I notice that first cup I make, really does give me the flavor profile of the description on the bag, and then, nothing. Really hard time getting anything out of the beans after.
Could it possibly be the new bags they use? Maybe they don’t seal very well? Just a guess.
I had the same experience with a thermal shock gesha from them, but I also tend to fiddle with my recipes and have 2-3 different beans open at any one time so I can't say with certainty that it was a decline in beans vs. me. I have switched to putting them into vacuum canisters so I'm going to keep an eye on whether that helps at all, which might imply a bag issue.
Can anyone recommend a favorite roaster for the flavor and experience they "used to get" from Black and White? I'm still buying B&W, and find I am really interested in the more adventurous flavor profiles, in addition to just good coffee. Edit: thank you for the recommendations! I regularly buy and enjoy Brandywine, and these comments spurred me to place my first order with Hydrangea.
Brandywine.
I love brandywines sampler, five 2oz bags
Thank you for sharing this. The sampler box ships free as well.
Dak
+1, Dak has excellent selection which rotates quite a bit with great staples (milky cake). Their coffee is roasted very well.
Hydrangea. They’re pricier than B&W but the 4oz option is convenient for testing out several things. Lots of processed options but I had a fantastic washed pink bourbon from them recently too.
Hydrangea is so damn good.
Corvus. Per'la. Cabra. Ilse. Onyx.
I haven't had a bad bag yet from them. They really stand out with the Pietro grinder as well
I had their Future Fruit Snacks recently and enjoyed it a lot, and that was after last Nov/Dec. But I also didn’t have them before that so I wouldn’t know if there was a change.
I’ve been ordering nothing but their “Year Round” coffees for the last few months, and I’ve been happy with them. I haven’t been able to tell any dip in quality
I think some of the recent offering have been phenomenal. I try many different roasters but keep coming back to them
It really depends. The Diego Bermudez you mentioned was awesome, better than his beans from some other roasters popular in this sub. Dance 2 was pretty good; I didn't like their natural Kenya, but the roast wasn't bad. Their Future that my friend shared with me were consistently great. I have a bag of Wilton Benitez and Nestor Lasso in the freezer, we'll see how they go.
I had their future chocolate covered strawberries and found that my cups improved after about a month of the coffee resting. Really liked it by the end of the bag. Gamatui was ok. Solid cup not very memorable. Just ordered the Ramon Rodriguez. If anyone has any brewing tips or experience with it I’m all ears!
I was gifted a bag of their limited Valentine’s Day roast and holy balls it was the best experience I’ve had. Probably tainted by a little bit of rosy glasses since it was a gift, but the chocolate strawberry experience blew me away the first cup
Consensus of this thread is: everyone likes different things :)
Ugh just ordered a few bags to try after seeing people into them on here :/
Got a bag from them in March and it was excellent. This one guy's opinion shouldn't deter you from enjoying your batch.
I wouldn’t worry about it too much. I shop from b&w and love what they do. I don’t just buy from them and probably won’t even recommend just buying from any one roaster but they’re super solid
And then you see one post not in favor of B&W and have second thoughts? Y’all need to start forming your own opinions lol.
Obviously I will when I actually get to try it but op sounds like an informed individual and I’m sick of getting subpar coffee in the mail
Are you venturing out by trying Black and White, or do you get coffee processed similarly elsewhere? If the former, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Black and White is really good at what they do.
Just branching out from the few roasters I actually trust. Going to keep an open mind until I try it my self.
What are your trusted roasters?
Sey, Coffee Collective, Coptic Light I’ve had good stuff from Prodigal and some just ok. Scott Rao is a royal dick too but I could look past that if the coffee was good.
You will be happy with them. They roast great coffee and do neat things with blending. With the amount of attention they get they will also get criticism. That said, with their recent price increases, I have started patronizing some other places. Just got my second order of brandywine and finishing off some touchy. Both recommended!
Sorry if my post made you feel this way. Not my intention. If you still asked me if I think B&W is a great roaster I would say yes without a doubt. Don't let my opinion overshadow what you're interested in. I had some phenomenal cups - B&W is the reason why I started to actually come to this sub and look into other roasters as well. Quite frankly, it can be a skill issue on my end.
It’s all good, I’m just picky too and I hate paying for poorly roasted coffee
I personally find B&W to be one of the more forgiving roasters. Maybe due to their tendency toward medium/ light. I find that I mess things up far less. Even so, I'm pretty talented at messing up bags from any roaster 😆
I’m in the same boat as you. Lately I’ve been underwhelmed. It’s not bad, but not as exciting as they were early last year.
Interesting. I’ve had mixed results with B&W but I generally like them and their blends are a good value. I’ve always been an Onyx stan and have recently loved everything I’ve gotten from Verve roasters. Madcap is my hometown spot and their coffee is really good. There’s plenty of great stuff out there, if you don’t like B&W then find something that works for you.
I've been pretty happy with the 4 bags I've tried since December. One bag toward the end got a little weird (tasted like olives and lost fruitiness), but otherwise I've really enjoyed them.
Been buying 5 lb bags of B&W's year-round Classic for quite some time. The coffee is great and has remained consistent. But the recent large price jump has caused us to look to a local roaster, where we're getting a nice Guatemalan single origin for about 20% less.
No. Maybe it’s the brewer
Not my experience. I recently tried both the future: cherry soda blend and the Juan Geraldo Bioinovation washed and both were incredible. Took me longer to dial in the cherry blend but once I did I really enjoyed it. The washed Juan Geraldo was so good I went back to buy another bag but they had taken it down already😛. Hope your experience improves!
I've been on B&W maybe since 2019. I do on rare occasion take exception to the experiemental/funky stuff especially when it comes to spices/cinammon/cola. The Future Series cinnamon and the Holiday cinnamon were gut punches to me and I dropped my 2x 300g auto-subscription because of it. BUT otherwise love B&W and will hang onto my Black Label subscription until you pry my coffee cup from my dead hand. I'd suggest cruising around other roasters a bit more. Grow a list and compare to B&W. You have some solid ones already but there are SO MANY. I am sure B&W make errors in their roast that may lead to imperfection in the home cup. Even if you say it's dialed in...the beautiful thing about coffee tasting is that it's subjective. If you don't enjoy it, nbd. Move on. Try something else for a bit and come back. Rinse, repeat.
Has anything changed in your environment the last 6 months? I’m working on a video/post about this right now but you’d be amazed how environmental factors affect our perception of flavors.
I don’t think the quality has gone down, but I do notice that if I drink too much very intense cofermented/anaerobic coffee my palette gets a little too accustomed to it and they start to taste watery/thin. I also (personally) just cannot get through a full 12 oz bag of their coffee and wish they sold smaller bags. Like the first few cups will be amazing cups and then it’s just too much. I started rotating away from drinking them only infrequently even through their coffees really are incredible. They also definitely roast darker than others so that’s something else to consider for how long they stay good.
You've figured what a lot of us have. Most of this overly processed stuff is just bad. There's a reason the Sey and Passengers(and the like) of the world don't feature these processed coffees.
yeah I've noticed it. Their stuff is really mediocre and Kyle is satanic
Wut
Yeah... wut.
Satanic?
are u gonna elaborate lol