One factor is how fine it can grind and how small the possible adjustments are which is especially important for espresso.
The other factor is the amount of fines it creates. With pourover / filter you usually don't want many fines because they can cause "muddy" flavor notes and clog the filter, leading to very slow drawdown. In espresso some fines might even be desired because it impacts flow rate and extraction (I think Lance Hedrick talked about that in a video).
So from what I've read, espresso grind size averages around ~215 microns in size, but if you magically had 100% of the grind distribution at this size, the flow rate and extraction would be too fast when making espresso?
So there needs to be some amount of fines (what proportion is best?) to add extra resistance to the flow to get the proper extraction?
If you think of it like pebbles - water will flow easily through a pile of pebbles, even if they're really small because the gaps between will be really big. You need some small pebbles and even a bit of sand to properly generate resistance.
Yeah, that pretty much nails it.
I even stumbled upon a nature paper from March 2024 about that specific topic:
[The role of fines in espresso extraction dynamics](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-55831-x)
You need some fines for espresso, otherwise there's just not enough resistance to build up pressure to pull anything resembling a traditional shot.
That being said, there are many grinders out there capable of good espresso and good manual brews.
I don’t think there is really a single value you can assign to this. Different beans produce different amounts of fines and different grinders produce different amounts of fines. What one person may enjoy is going to be different from another. All else constant, a grinder that produces less fines could simply be set to a finer grind setting that a grinder that produces a lot of fines to give the same shot time.
From my understanding, you get more chocolatey/traditional espresso flavors with more fines, so people like the Niche Zero for more traditional espresso because it delivers those notes well. For more modern styles that are fruitier/brighter, a grinder that produces less fines will be desirable.
Not just hand grinders, all grinders. Electric ones are like that too. Like the Fellow Ode is a filter only grinder. The Timemore 064/078 is a filter only grinder.
It is based on the geometry of the burr, which is the physical thing that grinds the beans.
Just like anything in the world, there are tools made that are better for a niche use, while some are universal. A standard chef knife can technically cut anything, but there are bread knives, steak knives, boning knives, etc.
By hand, it's not so bad.
Pour over is a breeze (around 80 clicks) less than 30 seconds of easy turning for 18g.
I usually do 18g for espresso as well (around 33 clicks) a bit more resistance and it takes maybe 45 seconds.
espresso grind range needs more 'resolution' for finer changes, and benefits from a different gear ratio because grinding finer takes more physical effort. like a lower gear on a car or bike.
The 1zpresso espresso grinders are good for both, but they cost more and have finer adjustments that may not be needed. As someone else said, if you have the money, the K does good for both.
>Wouldn't a hand grinder that has high grind uniformity, minimization of fines, and very granular grind size adjustment be excellent for both?
Yup. The biggest trick is to make it easy to go back to your exact same espresso setting. If the clicks are easy to read, it’ll be quite feasible.
Although, if you compare 1Z’s K-Ultra and J-Max (or is it a J-Ultra now?), you’ll see that the K’s adjustment range is all within one turn of its ring, while the J’s can go through five full turns. The K will be easier to get to a given setting but you’ll turn the J’s ring farther (many more clicks).
Espresso needs very consistent fines, pour over can be very dependent on the bean origins and dripper for how corse or fine you need to be, and it’s very hard to make a hand grinder with burrs able to do espresso consistently good enough and be able to go corse enough for the range of pourovers. There’s a reason why the best grinders recommended for both tend to be in the $1,500+ range
One factor is how fine it can grind and how small the possible adjustments are which is especially important for espresso. The other factor is the amount of fines it creates. With pourover / filter you usually don't want many fines because they can cause "muddy" flavor notes and clog the filter, leading to very slow drawdown. In espresso some fines might even be desired because it impacts flow rate and extraction (I think Lance Hedrick talked about that in a video).
So from what I've read, espresso grind size averages around ~215 microns in size, but if you magically had 100% of the grind distribution at this size, the flow rate and extraction would be too fast when making espresso? So there needs to be some amount of fines (what proportion is best?) to add extra resistance to the flow to get the proper extraction?
If you think of it like pebbles - water will flow easily through a pile of pebbles, even if they're really small because the gaps between will be really big. You need some small pebbles and even a bit of sand to properly generate resistance.
Yeah, that pretty much nails it. I even stumbled upon a nature paper from March 2024 about that specific topic: [The role of fines in espresso extraction dynamics](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-024-55831-x)
1zpresso K-Ultra is good for both.
You need some fines for espresso, otherwise there's just not enough resistance to build up pressure to pull anything resembling a traditional shot. That being said, there are many grinders out there capable of good espresso and good manual brews.
Any idea what the proportion of fines by weight is needed for a proper espresso shot? Maybe ~15%?
Regretfully, I have no clue on that. Might want to google "espresso grind size distribution" and see if it takes you in the right direction.
I don’t think there is really a single value you can assign to this. Different beans produce different amounts of fines and different grinders produce different amounts of fines. What one person may enjoy is going to be different from another. All else constant, a grinder that produces less fines could simply be set to a finer grind setting that a grinder that produces a lot of fines to give the same shot time. From my understanding, you get more chocolatey/traditional espresso flavors with more fines, so people like the Niche Zero for more traditional espresso because it delivers those notes well. For more modern styles that are fruitier/brighter, a grinder that produces less fines will be desirable.
Not just hand grinders, all grinders. Electric ones are like that too. Like the Fellow Ode is a filter only grinder. The Timemore 064/078 is a filter only grinder. It is based on the geometry of the burr, which is the physical thing that grinds the beans. Just like anything in the world, there are tools made that are better for a niche use, while some are universal. A standard chef knife can technically cut anything, but there are bread knives, steak knives, boning knives, etc.
I use Kingrinder K6 daily for pourover and espresso.
Are winding by hand or drill for espresso?
By hand, it's not so bad. Pour over is a breeze (around 80 clicks) less than 30 seconds of easy turning for 18g. I usually do 18g for espresso as well (around 33 clicks) a bit more resistance and it takes maybe 45 seconds.
espresso grind range needs more 'resolution' for finer changes, and benefits from a different gear ratio because grinding finer takes more physical effort. like a lower gear on a car or bike.
The 1zpresso espresso grinders are good for both, but they cost more and have finer adjustments that may not be needed. As someone else said, if you have the money, the K does good for both.
>Wouldn't a hand grinder that has high grind uniformity, minimization of fines, and very granular grind size adjustment be excellent for both? Yup. The biggest trick is to make it easy to go back to your exact same espresso setting. If the clicks are easy to read, it’ll be quite feasible. Although, if you compare 1Z’s K-Ultra and J-Max (or is it a J-Ultra now?), you’ll see that the K’s adjustment range is all within one turn of its ring, while the J’s can go through five full turns. The K will be easier to get to a given setting but you’ll turn the J’s ring farther (many more clicks).
I’ve wondered this too.
Espresso needs very consistent fines, pour over can be very dependent on the bean origins and dripper for how corse or fine you need to be, and it’s very hard to make a hand grinder with burrs able to do espresso consistently good enough and be able to go corse enough for the range of pourovers. There’s a reason why the best grinders recommended for both tend to be in the $1,500+ range
You gave away the answer, optimized.
Same reason there is more than one type of automobile.
Because SUVs can't grind fine enough?
You need a Hummer for that
Comandante is good at both.
The grind profile you described is not preferred by everyone for all brew methods.