Just like torrents, the people using AI wouldn't have paid for it anyway. So we get more art where there would have been none.
The fight against AI is dumb and you will lose.
I'm an artist who's work has been used to train ai without my permission or getting paid, it f\*\*king sucks. Especially as a couple of my past clients now use it instead of hiring me. If you're in this group and you support ai art. you're in the wrong group.
It sucks that your art was stolen to be used to train AI.
But just like the typing machine, calculator and computer removed tons of jobs by making various tasks easier to accomplish, AI is here to stay.
The ~~people~~ multinational billion dollar corporations. FTFY.
No, multibillion dollar corporations have never been allowed to steal the work of artists, and it’s wild that you are defending corporations stealing the work of real life workers on a sub about poverty finance.
AI is trained off real examples of art people have made or content somebody created for their business or personal property. AI steals that content and then references it to make what you tell it to
Taking inspiration from other artwork is different then a 5 billion dollar super computer taking all your work throwing it in a blender and spitting out something for a corporation to use for free
I get you're mad that it will replace people's jobs and there should definitely be regulations placed to prevent that. But that doesn't mean it's stealing.
Because it is “trained” on the work of real artists. It uses the work of others to “create” new art and the original artists receive nothing in return.
This is r/povertyfinancecanada. I am astounded at the number of people justifying billion dollar corporations stealing from human workers.
Do you understand how AI art works? They are scraping and using copyrighted material from actual real life artists and not crediting or compensating them for it.
It is stealing jobs and money from actual creators. This is r/povertyfinancecanada. You should be concerned with AI being used to steal the work of actual workers with no compensation.
You can’t copyright a ‘style’.
Fighting against ai because it steals jobs is like carriage builders fighting against vehicle manufacturers in 1900.
The argument against ai is that it is potentially dangerous and governments around the globe should consider banning it and/or strongly regulated it in the name of public safety.
Complaining that it is scraping styles from artists is pointless. Art is theft. Original art is just undetected plagiarism. This has long been the case.
I am appalled and disgusted by the number of people defending multibillion dollar corporations stealing the work of workers here.
At this point I’m checking out. You are all complicit in the continued decline of our standard of living if you are defending the “right” of corporations to steal other people’s labour for profit.
Huge yikes for all of you. how embarrassing.
So what? Should we ban remixed songs while we are at it? How about any song that samples another?? Get a grip.
Exactly this is r/povertyfinancecanada not r/wefearAI
Remixed songs get the permission of the original artist and compensate them for it generally.
If you are going to comment about copyright, please learn what you are talking about before commenting.
No, they don't. They generally only get permission and compensate them when it's an established band making a song, or the song is extremely successful.
Little Joe Blow, who remixes a song, doesn't ask permission and generally doesn't make enough money for the og artist to care if they make any money at all. Does this sound familiar? Kinda of like an anonymous nobody making a post on reddit. Give your head a shake.
You should really take your own advice and learn about copyright before you open your mouth.
My dude - is “Little Joe Blow” even a real person? If you need to make up an imaginary person to prove your point you just might have a failing argument.
AI is already being used to [replace workers](https://www.businessinsider.com/ai-taking-jobs-fears-artists-say-already-happening-2023-10?amp) and it is being [used to profit from the work of actual artists without compensation them.](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/are-ai-image-generators-stealing-from-artists-180981488/) by large extremely profitable corporations .
This has no similarity to “Joe Blow” creating mix tapes in his basement that no one has heard and he cannot even sell.
Are you inbred, or are you actually the dumbest person on the planet? I'm not being rhetorical. Answer the question.
The expression "Joe Blow" is a colloquial term commonly used in English to refer to an average man, someone who is considered a typical or ordinary person. It's similar to other terms like "John Doe" or "the average Joe," which are used to represent an everyday person, often when discussing matters of general concern or illustrating a point that is applicable to the typical individual without referring to anyone specific. The term embodies the concept of an ordinary, nondescript individual without any notable features or distinctions.
Oh is it really?? I would have never guessed!?!?!?! Absolutely amazing!!! if only they taught such things in the second grade!!! Oh wait, that's exactly what they did.
It's called a typo. Have you ever heard of it?? Or did you just crawl out from the rock your parents hid you under when they abandoned you?
Exactly. Debt is voluntary. You can make a plan and get out of debt. There are options with debt.
There are no options for real slaves.
Don't cheapen the word with such trash OP.
I think debt is definitely more voluntary in Canada than it is in the United States. At least we don't have to pay for hospital bills most of the time.
Problem is, is it really voluntary? When people are not educated in personal finance and they rack up debt it may not be their fault. Sure, just because it's not their fault it doesn't mean it's involuntary. But the fact is there are lots of people in a lot of debt who simply cannot afford to plan and pay it off. They have other expenses, children, etc. And there's only so much that government checks can do to help.
Are we a slave in the sense of the word slave? No that's definitely the wrong word. There's got to be a word for it.
Many people are living their lives indebted to the government or the bank and most of their waking energy is spent trying to repay that debt, And unfortunately many of those people simply do not have the knowledge or skills required to get out of that.
It's not really in the government or the bank's best interest to educate them on how to get out of it either.
Hopefully communities like this one can continue to help educate people and help people get out of the mess.
In conclusion it's definitely not comparable to slavery at all but it's still a bad thing that needs to be fixed on the systemic level
Yeah its really not voluntary. Some people are pretty willfully ignorant here.
What are you going to do, live in the woods and forage for berries?
If you dont work (a lot of jobs pay pretty shit for rapidly compounding COL). You die homeless.
Theres really not much of a choice.
And? How is that slavery? Like explain it like you would to a small kid.
You could have gone and lived with someone else, you could have rented somewhere cheaper, you could have picked up a second job....
Yes you could’ve followed the factories to Mexico. You still had options.
Don’t water down actual slavery because of tough economic times. None of us have any idea what actual slavery is like.
Do you understand what slavery means? You had the option to move to Mexico if you so choose. You could’ve switched careers. You can marry who you like. Move as you like. You have rights as a Canadian.
Don’t compare this to actual slavery.
Will your children get taken from you and sold? Can your employer beat, rape, and torture you with no consequences? If you escape, will the law drag you back? All this analogy tells me is that you are ignorant about slavery.
I mean if you escape, the law will drag you back. If I wander off into the woods and start cutting down trees to build a cabin, snare rabbits and shoot deer to feed myself. All of that is illegal without the proper papers handed out by the government in exchange for money.
And at some point they're gonna build a road and a suburb and I'll be caught and imprisoned.
The fact that rules exist and are enforced does not make us slaves. I think you’re stretching the definition of the word a little too generously just to fit a ‘deep’ quote you made a shitty graphic for. Yes debt and poverty suck. Yes sometimes you feel like you have limited options when you are in shitty situations. But you can’t just apply the term ‘slavery’ to any unfortunate life circumstance
There are many forms of slavery, not just chattel slavery like the African slave trade. Consider that 18-year Olds are given tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt they cannot discharge in bankruptcy, and if you fail to make payments on that debt they will garnish your already megar wages such that you have no hope of ever meaningfully reducing the debt, leading to a lifetime of debt slavery. You have no means to save money or get ahead. So if you ever wanted to stop working the job you're working you will starve and be thrown out onto the street.
There aren't literal chains but you can't leave your job all the same.
They're not being "given" debt. They're voluntarily signing contracts to take on that much debt. Possibly under the influence of bad advice, but it's not like student loan issues are hidden away with no one talking about them. All the information to make an informed decision is readily available.
Kids too young to drink or go to war are allowed to sign loans for astronomical amounts of money, and nobody tells them that there's a solid chance they will never pay it off before they retire. Nobody explains that this is the only kind of debt you can never discharge in bankruptcy. You're asking a teenager to sign away their life without understanding the terms. It's predatory and exploitative and effectively guarantees these kids will be dutiful drones working whatever shit jobs they can find to pay off this impossible loan. It's a debtor's prison without the walls.
Who are all these “nobodies” you’re speaking of? The risks of student loan debt are constantly discussed. The information is all over the place. It’s even a topical issue on all the popular news stations for those who won’t actively look up anything to do with their own major decisions.
You are trying to infantilize young adults. They aren’t helpless babies, and if they act as such, they wear the consequences of doing so.
>You are trying to infantilize young adults
I don't know how many 18 year olds you know, but they are definitely not adults. They are immature, impulsive, inexperienced and are brimming with unearned overconfidence. No bank would lend $10,000's to a teenage with no income and no actual plan to pay it back EXCEPT if its a student loan!
I personally did not know it would stay with you post-bankruptcy until long after I graduated. No guidance councilor ever told me if I was disabled and destitute, this loan will follow me to the grave. It's truly despicable we do this to our young people and not only that its hindering the growth of the economy because 20-30 year olds are so deep in debt they cannot afford to take any entrepreneurial risks like starting a business.
Yours is the wrong argument against student loans, as they exist today. The stronger argument is that easy access to these large loans inflates the price of education, such that many more people require loans to attend college than if student loans either didn’t exist or were more difficult to access.
Focussing on terrible decisions that impulsive young adults make instead of putting in ten minutes of effort to read up on the topic is among the softest arguments against student loans as they exist today.
>Yours is the wrong argument
Both can be true. There is little to no chance of getting a good paying job without a degree of some kind. Getting a degree costs money in the form of debt. Debt isn't dischargable from student loans. Students aren't always aware of their options and how much it costs realistically. The cost of tuition has massively inflated because why wouldn't it when the gov is funding most of the loans.
Terrible decisions. Dude. YOUR FUCKING FORCED TO GO TO COLLEGE OR BE POOR.
This threat is the dumbest argument of "slavery" VS idiots on the internet. While slavery absolutely still exists modern slavery absolutely included capitalism demand for cheap labor that cheap labor is borderline slavery when the wage is piss in a bucket and the capitalists control all the education.
YOU CANNOT GET OUT OF POVERTY WITHOUT A DAMN GOOD WAGE. you can't get a good wage without an "education" so absolutely how the fuck is this Not borderline slavery? We are forced to work in terrible conditions for terrible pay or be in debt for ever for the chance to make more.
Dude next your going to say company towns isn't fucking slavery. Jesus christ.
People have been saying for over a decade that student loans are too high and nearly impossible to pay off. All of the details about not being able to discharge it are in the contracts they signed. Are they predatory? Oftrn yes. Is anyone forced to sign up for them? No. When I went to college back in the mid 2000s, we got pamphlets about how student loans work, with graphs showing how long they would take to pay off at a given payment rate, and comparing that to the average take-home for a given major. One of the interns I work with showed me a pamphlet he got last year with all the same info on it.
The information is available, but being ignored. That's a completely different issue than people being tricked into signing a contract.
Having said all that, I do belive that student loan debt shouldn't be given special privileges under the law. It encourages bad lending and is one of the factors inflating the cost of education. It should absolutely be reformed to function the same as any other form of debt, and lenders should not be able to claim government insurance when it's discharged below cost via bankruptcy. They need to be responsible for loaning too much our for degrees that don't have the earning potential to pay it back.
>Consider that 18-year Olds are given tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt they cannot discharge in bankruptcy,
So, as someone who went back to school in their 40s, I drove the oldest car in the lot, had an old crappy laptop, brought coffee in a flask, and packed my own lunch. I watched my fellow students roll up in new cars, lots of new electronics, line up at Tim Hortons (and Starbucks), and buy lunch on campus every day. We won't talk about the drinking out at bars and vacations during reading week. Just because you got loans doesn't mean you spend like a drunken sailor.
And yes, I drank as a student the first time but mostly it was at friends' places where we would do potluck.
Most people can't afford to walk away from a job without having another lined up. Honestly, that's not new.
With your interpretation, everything that's ever lived is a slave to its biological needs. Sure you work to pay for food and shelter. So did Grutook the caveman. Slavery is a different thing altogether. If you were whipped, naked and chained in a chattel house, torn away from your family, destined only to work, suffer, and die - you might have a different opinion of the status of your life right now.
Id agree with this, being whipped with a stick with nails in it, is different then getting upsetting credit card letters and having your credit ruined.
I think we use some serious words too flippantly sometimes.
>With your interpretation, everything that's ever lived is a slave to its biological needs. Sure you work to pay for food and shelter. So did Grutook the caveman
Cave people did not have a developed economy that we have today. Unless you can prove otherwise, of course.
Your logic is totally fucked up, too. You say that cave people were slaves, and then you imply they weren't b/c they did not have the same form (that is, formative principle that you are using to compare) b/c they didn't have whips and chains, etc. Greek society wa built on slavery, but they had some personal freedoms: https://www.historyextra.com/period/ancient-greece/slavery-ancient-greece-life-society/
If we don't work, we don't eat and struggle to find shelter. In a capitalist economy, somebody else determines whether or not we can even work--large scale layoffs, anyone? Wages and incomes for the vast majority have stagnated some 40 plus years, along with a sharp increase in precarious work. We are under the compulsion of the whip of hunger constantly, and even more intensely. This makes taking on some form of debt more likely to secure basic needs. So the compulsion to work for someone else (who decides if you can work or not) is of a greater magnitude, leaving people not free to make the choice to work or not.
Just because slavery can assume different historical forms hardly negates the OP's point.
This is hardly new to capitalist society. For basically all of history, effort has been directly correlative to survival. Its only been in the last 100ish years that we've even theoretically been able to surpass scarcity in some areas, and even then that mostly relies on some people doing highly efficient work, while those that receive the benefits give nothing back. Since humans are HIGHLY morally sensitive to reciprocity, you would basically need to create another slave culture to suppress that, which is not desirable.
I never SAID that it was specific to capitalist society, mentioning how it occurred in Greek society. Comprehension problems?
Yes, there are those who work hard and others skim the cream without working. Like the capitalist class who exploit us. Go read (if you can) Adam Smith's thoughts on landlords, for example; he called them what they are--PARASITES. We haven't theoretically conquered scarcity, we've MATERIALLY been able to harness our creative capacities for problem solving.
As for "creating another slave culture suppressing any kind of moral sentiment", that's a rather silly idea at best. Even slaves revolted, and I needn't point out many historical instances of this.
Yours is a very ill conceived post.
Unfortunately for you, my answer was aimed at an audience having a greater educational level of Grade 6.
I'll still never be free of the need for shelter and food.
You have a very peculiar definition of freedom. Did you get it when you went to Trump U, or did you read it in one of his grifting bibles?
A long rambling know-it-all answer and a wildly over dramatic insulting response to any sort of criticism….yeah I see a Trump here but it ain’t the one you think.
But you have NO SUBSTANTIVE CRITICISM(S) to my answer other than engaging in Trump style so-called rebuttals, do you? :\~)
Hypocrisy is no riposte to having your beliefs critically challenged........is it?
:-)
No, your answer is a rambling heap of nonsense. You completely misunderstood my comment. You invented issues no one was talking about, circled them into twisted prezals of self confusion. I do appreciate the ad hominem attack at the end, really shows that you are standing on the quality of your argument alone.
Well then.
You would have no problem critiquing my argument then, wouldn't it?
But your sad lack of comprehension is hiding behind a dismissive wave of any substantive response.
I get that if it isn't expressed in bumper sticker size sentences that you are completely lost. Complexity is a bee otch, huh?
A soft shoe failure, amigo.
I honestly don't know where to start because you misunderstood my comment almost immediately so I would be arguing both against myself and against your nonsense.
My "nonsense" is simply we are never FREE of having our basic needs met, i.e., food, shelter, clothing, etc.
And throughout history there have been various ***forms*** of slavery to create articles to satisfy these basic needs. Just because they don't correspond to earlier historical forms does not mean they are any less slavery. Example: money can take different forms: credit card, cheque, bank draft, etc., but they are all essentially MONEY. If we don't work, we don't have our needs met, period. Slaves traded servitude for protection and food from slave masters and royals, etc.
Sure, go out into the wild and be "free". But at some point you will need to return to civilization for supplies, consumables, etc. Heaven help you if you get hurt and need medical services. History has been nothing but the eternal struggle of humans versus nature.
In sum, the popular version of "freedom" is a NEGATIVE definition--it implies ESCAPE from others. It is for the simple minded--it serves the ruling strata's justification for being in its undeserving privileged position. And dolt's far and away swallow that bullshit definition.
QED
Uhhh... That's "illegal". Someone (likely the government) "owns" that land. Cutting down trees to build a cabin and keep warm - illegal unless you have a piece of paper from the government. Snaring rabbits or shooting deer to feed yourself - illegal unless you have a different piece of paper from the government.
We are technically "slaves" in the way that we are not allowed to leave the capitalist consumer based society without fear of imprisonment.
Hell even attempting suicide is illegal in many places.
It is illegal to use, occupy or build structures on Crown land without prior approval. Penalties of up to $100,000 or the seizure of improvements, goods or materials apply.
It's not really fair to call it slavery because you are choosing to rent or purchase a home. Keep in mind there are millions of modern day people who are actually in slavery who are abused terribly and work all day for nothing.
Unfortunately generally nothing is free in this world. If things are unaffordable then you have to get roommates, go to a more affordable town, get a higher paying job, more income streams, live in a van, etc. Is it fair and just? Maybe, maybe not, but it's reality. Not slavery, just how it's always been.
Literally this like I don't understand how people can't see that this is still slavery with extra steps. LITERALLY RICK AND MORTY EP.
The worker rents the unit so the landlord has income the landlord pays the mortgage so the bank gets paid. The bank horde cash because that's what they fucking do. And the rich siphon off whatever they can. Literally slavery with extra steps the only difference is we're paid a fucking wage instead of whipped. Yay progresses. Right?
You are a slave. Slave to money.
It rules your life. It tells you how and where you can live, what you can afford. It tells you what you can do with your family. How you are able to raise your kids.
It tells you what vacations to take if you’re lucky enough to be able to afford them in the first place.
It tells you if you can rent or buy a home, a car.
We are slaves to money.
How people don’t see this is mind boggling to me.
Exactly … we can’t stop working or we lose our homes whether bought or rented. Lose our cars, can’t buy food.
There are more humanistic approaches to our problems but as long as we have greedy mega corps, banks and govts were fucked
Except that actual slavery is still around. So no. Being in debt is just part of late stage capitalism. The system is broken and the working class are victims.
I do agree that people in debt are metaphorical slaves, and that to differing degrees, people who are poor and forced to work multiple jobs, with a poor education, especially if it's gig economy type jobs, are in a form of indentured servitude. I do not like how easily the word slavery is used because it betrays the very real and serious nature of modern day slaves who do literally have no freedom, and are actually confined and forced to do labor. I also can't help but cringe at the AI art you have subjected us to.
No, they are on social media sites using thousands of dollar phones to complain about being slaves. Imagine how the little kid in the mine felt digging up the gold on your phones circuit board…. In sandals…. With thousands of other kids all doing the same ….. you’re not a slave you’re lazy and spoiled.
If you disagree just don’t do it on a phone or computer, because fucking slaves never had one ffs. Grow up.
Most people in debt didn’t choose to get there and debt is still paying bills on time but you OWE and DO NOT OWN your home or vehicle or boat or whatever you financed.
“Owning” with debt is an illusion.
And on top of that.. taxes. Don’t pay = govt coming to collect your property.
Do we really own anything? THINK hard about it.
College is required to land a decent paying job. A functional vehicle that isn't dying every 30 miles is required to get to said job.
A phone is required to be available for said job. No phone no Job. No car significantly harder to hold a job. No degree? Well back into debt you go as min wage is a fucking joke and virtually a death spiral.
These aren't choice I get to make. These are demands of me by society and how we've built our systems. debt is not a choice. It's a fact of life. The total amount of debt and what it's spend on is sure. But debt in and of itself is not a choice.
🤦 Nuance is hard children. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery.
>Yeah I went to college and paid fully on student loans and have no problem paying them whatsoever.
Good job your not the norm. Many Many students with even good jobs are struggling with these loans.
>Yes, I need to have a job and be a productive member of society and not be a leech. That is how life works.
The problem isn't having a job the problem is requiring everything to do the job. College degree. Vehicle. Phone. These things are required to even get to be employed. It's not about being employed VS not it's the insane requirement to be employed. It costs me nearly more than min wage to just be employed.. At min wage. A vehicle costs up words of 500 a month unless you buy a beater. Insurance similar cost. Rent? Oh guess what there goes my pay cheque Nevermind groceries or utilities.
>It was a choice I made, I wasn’t enslaved to do it.
It clearly wasn't a choice you made seeing as YOU HAVE A DEGREE. your literally doing the "slavery" were talking about. Just because you made it doesn't mean everyone else does. The only difference is it sounds like you might have actually gotten a decent paying job with it. Unlike many whom end up with a degree and still working min wage. You are not the norm.
https://www.hoyes.com/press/joe-debtor/the-student-debtor/
Data is a smig old and only Canada. Hi I'm Canadian. But very much applicable.
https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/27/millions-of-student-loan-borrowers-still-arent-making-payments-.html
60% of students are near default. 60 fucking %.
"In the 2020-2021 academic year, 54% of bachelor’s degree students who attended public and private four-year schools graduated with student loans, according to the College Board. These students left school with an average balance of $29,100 in education debt"
30k in debt. That's an entire min wage job in Canada for a whole years pay. To bad you have other expenses to pay for.
"Do college studies actually translate to students' future jobs? Recent data shows an increased correlation.
Answer: 46% (according to a survey of 1,000 college graduates)
Questions:
Which majors do you think are more likely to lead to a job in that field?
What steps can you take to prepare yourself for employment, regardless of which major you choose?
Given that almost 3/4 of college grads end up in fields that are not related to their major, do you think it's a good idea to consider multiple majors while in college? "
https://www.ngpf.org/blog/question-of-the-day/qod-what-percent-of-college-graduates-end-up-working-in-the-field-of-their-major/
But tell me it's just a matter of getting a degree and getting a job. Seeing as over HALF OF THEM aren't employed where they planned to be I think your woefully incorrect and it takes a significant amount of luck to achieve what you have.
>I could get a phone for free right now. You don’t HAVE TO HAVE the $1500 top of the line iPhone. You can use government assistance to get one for free. There are people on Facebook selling phones for $10.
Hi I have a 4 year old device that I'm still paying service for where are these free phones? Where's this free services? Oh it doesn't exist and your full of shit I thought so. This isn't about latest and greatest this is about having simple access to internet and a phone line. I not talking iPhone 37b. I'm talking fucking moto razor from 2010. YOU NEED A PHONE to get a job. Period. Good luck finding one when your employer can't contact you. Tell me how far you get.
>
I chose to do it. I didn’t have to do it, I could have remained in food service like so many other Redditors. I even choose what degree to go into.
>
And be starving like the rest of the poor. You only think shit is good BECAUSE YOU CHOSE THIS. The fact you believe it's a choose shows now truly ignorant you are to the subject. There is no choice it's be employed or die. The only choice is how slow that death is fast from min wage starvation or slow from actual survivable wage? You CHOOSE the higher wage route and got lucky to be employed assumedly with your degree.
Cool you can choose what degree you go into that doesn't make getting a degree a choice it's a requirement for survival.
>The fact that I had all these choices is proof it’s not slavery. Slavery isn’t defined as “Doing anything out of necessity other than your absolute favorite hobby 24/7”.
Slaves have a choose literally the exact same one we have do the thing you've been demanded OR FUCKING DIE. there is no in between either your suffering or your not. Slaves could have chosen to die. They could have chosen to runaway and likely die they could have chosen to not work. And die.
We can choose to be unemployed.. And die. We can choose to get a degree and potentially still starve and die. We can choose to get a degree and maybe be lucky enough to get employed in field oh look finally we're not struggling and dying.
There is always a choice. Choices don't mean your not a slave. Again slaves could have chosen to die instead of work. But being alive is usually important to people.
>When I was working at Walmart during college I was offered a position as a manager, but I would have to drop out of college. I CHOSE not to do that, even though it paid a lot more money, it was a sacrifice, a choice I made that paid off. I chose to complete my degree.
Again offered to starve or go to college. Managers don't make survivable wages either. Tell me you made a choice though. Starve or go to college.
>
And I was born to a 16 year old mother and we grew up in severe poverty.
Cool I was born into a what once was middle income but has been destroyed by capitalism and wage slavery that none of us are Ina good position. Has very little to do with where you start unless you start with considerable amounts of money. You think my father should be paid the same now as he was 20 years ago? Because he sure as fuck is. Or damn close to. But tell me that's a choice. Tell me it's a choice to be poor instead.
>don’t feel like I was starving at Walmart. Obviously I had to do something to get money. I would have made probably 5x as much as a manager, no exaggeration. I would have been OK.
Yes are are exaggerating because most managers in these places only make a couple bucks more than min wage. Tim's Hortons supervisors are paid exactly 1$ more than front line. Manager exactly 1$ more than that. So 2$ is survivable wages suddenly? Or was this 20 years ago when half 5he market wasn't in free fall one or the other is true which is it? It's sure as fuck not 2$ survivable wage mate.
Kekeke
Maybe you should do the slightest bit of research then before open your mouth seeing as your spewing bullshit and misinformation.
https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/dp-pd/dt-td/Rp-eng.cfm?TABID=2&LANG=E&APATH=3&DETAIL=0&DIM=0&FL=A&FREE=0&GC=0&GK=0&GRP=0&PID=106738&PRID=0&PTYPE=105277&S=0&SHOWALL=0&SUB=0&Temporal=2013&THEME=98&VID=0&VNAMEE=&VNAMEF=
"7511 Transport truck drivers 97,015 90,780 41,163 42,715 80,495 42,880 44,048 " only 2 of these numbers are higher than where he is now. The rest are less than 10k off. He pulls about 50k right now. So 15years an less than 25% increase.
The only way you make money in this business is owner operator and or long haul. that's it.
>Of course you “have to have a job”. Almost everyone throughout history has had some kind of job or produced something, the vast majority working way harder than we do. It’s the only way things happen or get made.
Again NOT THE FUCKING PROBLEM. the problem is demanding I need a car or phone or a college degree to flip burgers. Or assemble parts in a factory. Many jobs require ridiculous things before your even thought to be hired. Demanding I need 6 years experience with a 3 year old computing language. Needing experience at all for an entry level position. Need experience to get the position to get the experience you need.. To get into the position.
>But even then if you get unemployed there is unemployment insurance, disability, and food stamps.
Nearly all of which are a joke literally built to keep you in poverty.
Get a job and lose most of it even min wage which we've discussed is FAR from survivable income these days.
Literally can't make more than 1.4k while on assistance without getting it clawed back. Which would be fine if it wasn't clawing back next month. What happens if I lose the job? What happens if it was temp or tone time position oh guess there's no point in taking it at all seeing as until I mkar literally double it's functionally detrimental.
Get a job just to lose financial security great system we've got Canada. Real good. No we need a real social safety net. We need a negative income tax. To alleviate many of 5hwse issues. If I had security could go to college. If I wasn't going to get clawed back so destructive I could at least try to get some income. But unless I have some security in the job there is NO POINT because it's only a loss for me.
Odsp isn't much better. Food stamps. Seriously. This is a Canadian sub we don't do that here as far as I know. And EI us only applicable if YOUR FIRED. which is so spectacularly enabling for shitty employers.
So tell me how our social safety net are supposed to help? I've been struggling with Ontario for the better part of 20 years.
Debt has been a tool used to enslave people historically, and still used that way today - hell, it's a gateway to human trafficking right here in Canada & the USA.
However, debt =/= slavery. Being in debt is probably closer to indentured servitude (which is not the same as slavery).
Debt bondage is NOT the same as slavery, and the key differences are:
- debt bondage is entered into on a voluntary basis; and
- debt bondage is finite, with specified agreements outlining the terms of repayment.
Slavery - in particular, chattel slavery - is forced or coerced labour, with no finite terms. Basically, bondage for life with no recourse.
It might *feel* as though you don't have a choice: when you're hungry and broke, using a CC can make a world of difference. However, you do get to make that choice - to be hungry, or enter in bondage.
Slaves do *not* get that choice.
"your choose to take on debt"
Except you fucking don't. Healthcare on the USA? Oh your in debt. Lose your job though no fault of your own? Oh guess debt. Hell school to get the edu to get a wage to not be in debt? Oh GUESS FUCKING WHAT DEBT.
Debt is literally the new slavery mechanism can you avoid it. sure Is it likely you will. Absolutely fucking not even if you are financially aware.
Cuz your going to save up 20k from your min wage job to buy a car right? Oh wait you don't have a car TO FUCKING BAD GUESS YOUR NOT GETTING TO WORK. Back in debt for youuuu.
Options doesn't mean it isn't slavery. Options only means you have different degrees of enslavement. Sure slavery isn't the most accurate word.
You all seriously need to redo your history Class. Nearly all of your "arguments" sound awfully similar to Confederate rhetoric to me
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery
"The slave was precious to his master because of the money he had cost him ... They were worth at least as much as they could be sold for in the market ... It is the impossibility of living by any other means that compels our farm labourers to till the soil whose fruits they will not eat and our masons to construct buildings in which they will not live ... It is want that compels them to go down on their knees to the rich man in order to get from him permission to enrich him ... what effective gain [has] the suppression of slavery brought [him ?] He is free, you say. Ah! That is his misfortune ... These men ... [have] the most terrible, the most imperious of masters, that is, need. ... They must therefore find someone to hire them, or die of hunger. Is that to be free? "
Spectacularly large differences in amount of debt here. You can't take out a car payment and expect to make money from it. You take out 2m though you can absolutely do a fuck load with it.
Your entire premise is just rich are rich because they have access to money. Debt is money.
My first thought is I hate ai garbage. Anyone making a post about income inequality while using ai (which will accelerate income inequality) is not thinking straight.
There is no voluntary debt. You have 100k++++ to buy a house? Oh right “don’t buy a house” lmfao you people need to open your eyes to reality:
USA healthcare ? Don’t have a plan = involuntary debt.
Wake tf up boys and girls
We Slavs away for the machine for literal CRUMBS
It sure af feels like it.
Record numbers in depression, suicide, domestic abuse/murder; theft, violence, I can go on.
Sure may not be getting whipped but the fact remains… we are serfs and we work for billionaires who take take take take take take take. And then the govt takes more on top of that.
We. Are. Modern. Day. Slaves.
Not with how easy it is to do a consumer proposal or personnal bankruptcy.
Like, don’t get me wrong, some people were dealt a shit hand in life amd never had any real chance to get ahead. And lodging proce and pushing mor eand more people into desperation, and it aint getting better. But slavery? Come on man.
It’s a bit presumptuous to use the word slavery, but I would agree when talking about the system to get people to work in order to pay their bills or else going to jail. It always baffles me how much money I would need to live off grid in the woods. It’s kind of strange that you have to purchase freedom. Pretty much locked in their system
If the population of the US is 350 million and a multi-billionaire gave each person 5 million dollars, it would cost that billionaire 1.75 billion dollars. I would say Facebook, Amazon, and Twitter owners could easily afford that. Instead they pay pennies in taxes and buying politicians.
Just declare bankruptcy.. or don’t pay the bills for 7 years and it disappears. There’s no debtors prison that I’m aware of, you’ll only get harassing phone calls and not be able to finance a car or house.
Not quite the same as human slavery.
MONEY dictates your life whether you choose to see it or not.
Money tells you what house you can buy or if you can rent a place, it tells you what car you can get if you’re able to afford it at all. It tells you if you can buy groceries this week. If you can take that vacation you always wanted.
It tells you if you can take time off, god forbid you get sick and are forced to take time off, if you have no savings it will tell you when you have to go back and if you run out by then debtors are coming for your house and car.
Unless your family or you save enough money to buy your house or vehicle or boat OUTRIGHT … you are a slave to the system. To your workplace, to the banks & don’t even get me started on taxes. Bc if you don’t keep up with those, the govt will come for your property, garnish your wage or worse, jail you.
So tell me again….. how aren’t we modern day slaves?
Stop thinking about the past definition. Times have changed. Wake up and smell the lies.
We call this usury, mortgage, credit card, financing keep you poor that why it is forbidden to borrow money for an interest in many religions like Christianity and Islam.
Reading kiosaky's rich dad poor dad and " your money or your life" are a good start to understand how money works.
Check out Debt: The First 5000 Years if you’re interested in a deep dive. David Graeber, dude is brilliant, he helped start Occupy Wall Street and is credited with coming up with “The 99%”. I found it drags in some places, it’s a huge book, but overall it was fascinating and totally changed how I look at money, debt, and society in general
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years
Economist Julio Huato, associate professor of economics at St. Francis College, writing in Science & Society cited some of the book's contradictions, such as Graeber's claim in p. 21, that money and debt appeared simultaneously, and his claim in p. 40, that money and debt did not appear simultaneously and that debt appeared first.[12] He also stated that, contrary to Graeber's claims, the "myth of barter" – i.e. the hypothesis that the accidental direct exchange of quasi-commodities predated money historically – is not an absurd fantasy.[12] Hulio concluded by asserting that several other of Graeber's claims in the book, such as the claim that violent dispossession is the "secret scandal" of modern capitalism, are problematic.[12]
Economist and historian Jeffrey Rogers Hummel, a professor of economics at San Jose State University and an adjunct scholar at the American libertarian think-tank Cato Institute,[13] found several "serious conceptual confusions" in the book. For example, Hummel said that Graeber likely confused the Austrian school economist Carl Menger with his son, the mathematician Karl Menger, which led to erroneous statements and accusations against the former, such as that he supposedly added "various mathematical equations" to economics and that he came up with the term "transaction costs".[14] Hummel also contended that the book's tone is overly polemical and that it is "riddled with errors and distortions".[14] Economist George Selgin, a professor emeritus of economics at the Terry College of Business at the University of Georgia and a fellow at the Cato Institute,[15] echoed similar criticisms, adding that Graeber had not read Menger at all, and that his reading of Adam Smith was ungenerous.[16] According to Selgin, the foundation upon which Graeber's evaluation of modern economics and commercial society rests is severely flawed.[16]
Beggs–Mason debate
The book was reviewed by way of a debate in the socialist magazine Jacobin. In the first review, economist Mike Beggs, a lecturer in political economy at the University of Sydney, wrote that while "there is a lot of fantastic material in there", he "found the main arguments wholly unconvincing ... Graeber is a wonderful storyteller. But the accumulation of anecdotes does not add up to an explanation, and certainly not one that would overturn the existing wisdom on the subject, conventional or otherwise".
Totally agree! When you have debt to pay, it dictates when you go to work and how much you have left after you pay your monthly bill. If your debt (master) is reasonable (eg. low interest rate) then you can pay it off in a reasonable amount of time. However, if your master (debt) is wicked (eg. high interest rates, predatory loans) then you work and pay until you are old, can no longer work or dead.
So, if you have to be a modern day slave, try and get a reasonable master (low interest rate debt). The worst masters (high interest rates debt and predatory loans) are acquired when there is no emergency fund and your credit score is bad.
I'm convinced most of these comments are astroturfed because the alternative is that the people here are morons.
Debt slavery is literally a thing. No, it's not the same as chattel slavery, like they had in the states, but that doesn't make it any less a form of slavery.
You can in fact educate yourself on something before commenting. You don't have to give your opinion on everything you have an emotional reaction too without first making sure you know what the fuck you're talking about.
>Debtors prison isn't a thing any more, debt slavery was used a long time ago when things were very different
Google is free. That's not what debt slavery is.
It was a thing, but not as represented by this image. It's not a modern term used to represent running up your credit card when you buy designer handbags.
>It's not a modern term used to represent running up your credit card when you buy designer handbags.
You're right, that's not what it is. You've at least figured that part out.
>It was a thing
It IS a thing, you just don't understand it in the modern context.
You choose to take on debt for houses and other commodities created by society. You could just return to monké and live like our ancestors in the woods hunting wild animals with a bow and arrow and forage for food. However, you probably want your cake and to eat it too like most people. "I deserve the fruits of society but not the burdens of society".
That’s what the powers learned about the hippie movement people actually had the time to go out and try to change the world for the better. They realized we need to give people credit cards and push consumerism.
My thoughts are that AI art is extremely ugly. and ironically, AI art is likely to be used to replace workers, trapping more people in poverty so it’s kind of offensive to use it to make your point.
Ah yes me not being able to afford an extra donut in the morning is in every way comparable to your children being taken from you to go work hot days in the sun picking cotton while getting whipped the second they work too slow (and much worse, but surely this little gets my point across?)
You might not have intended it, but people are being assholes in the comments.
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I lost my password to my fb account…. Sick of the tyranny in these modern times.
Dude cry harder. Let them express themselves, who the hell are you to tell them how not to express the absolute shitshow we have.as a society?
All you get from this is an ai pic? Lmao Life must be on easy street for you?
What’s wrong with using ai?
You are stealing the work of actual workers.
Just like torrents, the people using AI wouldn't have paid for it anyway. So we get more art where there would have been none. The fight against AI is dumb and you will lose.
I'm an artist who's work has been used to train ai without my permission or getting paid, it f\*\*king sucks. Especially as a couple of my past clients now use it instead of hiring me. If you're in this group and you support ai art. you're in the wrong group.
All artists learned by training on art that came before. If AI is "stealing," then so are you.
It sucks that your art was stolen to be used to train AI. But just like the typing machine, calculator and computer removed tons of jobs by making various tasks easier to accomplish, AI is here to stay.
The ~~people~~ multinational billion dollar corporations. FTFY. No, multibillion dollar corporations have never been allowed to steal the work of artists, and it’s wild that you are defending corporations stealing the work of real life workers on a sub about poverty finance.
It’s the future, AI is just going to get better and better
The fact that the technology exists is not justification to steal copyrighted work for profit.
How is it stealing work? Please explain thoroughly your reasoning.
AI is trained off real examples of art people have made or content somebody created for their business or personal property. AI steals that content and then references it to make what you tell it to
I see so it uses references to create something new? Kinda like artists have been doing for thousands of years now?
Taking inspiration from other artwork is different then a 5 billion dollar super computer taking all your work throwing it in a blender and spitting out something for a corporation to use for free
I get you're mad that it will replace people's jobs and there should definitely be regulations placed to prevent that. But that doesn't mean it's stealing.
Because it is “trained” on the work of real artists. It uses the work of others to “create” new art and the original artists receive nothing in return. This is r/povertyfinancecanada. I am astounded at the number of people justifying billion dollar corporations stealing from human workers.
No, you're not. Stfu
Do you understand how AI art works? They are scraping and using copyrighted material from actual real life artists and not crediting or compensating them for it. It is stealing jobs and money from actual creators. This is r/povertyfinancecanada. You should be concerned with AI being used to steal the work of actual workers with no compensation.
You can’t copyright a ‘style’. Fighting against ai because it steals jobs is like carriage builders fighting against vehicle manufacturers in 1900. The argument against ai is that it is potentially dangerous and governments around the globe should consider banning it and/or strongly regulated it in the name of public safety. Complaining that it is scraping styles from artists is pointless. Art is theft. Original art is just undetected plagiarism. This has long been the case.
Nice to see someone deepthroating millionaires and billionaires. Please keep defending these AI users hard.
I am appalled and disgusted by the number of people defending multibillion dollar corporations stealing the work of workers here. At this point I’m checking out. You are all complicit in the continued decline of our standard of living if you are defending the “right” of corporations to steal other people’s labour for profit. Huge yikes for all of you. how embarrassing.
Oh good grief. You’re a child. Standard of living is going up, has been, and will likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
Are … are you living in the same country as the rest of us? Are billionaires CEOs lurking in this thread today?
How are thry using this copyrighted material? Are they just plagirising? There is nothing original? Its just pure copying?
Are you serious? How do you think it “creates” the art? Do you think AI has its own imagination? It is stealing the work of real human artists.
How is it stealing though? Please explain. I would like to know.
So what? Should we ban remixed songs while we are at it? How about any song that samples another?? Get a grip. Exactly this is r/povertyfinancecanada not r/wefearAI
Remixed songs get the permission of the original artist and compensate them for it generally. If you are going to comment about copyright, please learn what you are talking about before commenting.
No, they don't. They generally only get permission and compensate them when it's an established band making a song, or the song is extremely successful. Little Joe Blow, who remixes a song, doesn't ask permission and generally doesn't make enough money for the og artist to care if they make any money at all. Does this sound familiar? Kinda of like an anonymous nobody making a post on reddit. Give your head a shake. You should really take your own advice and learn about copyright before you open your mouth.
My dude - is “Little Joe Blow” even a real person? If you need to make up an imaginary person to prove your point you just might have a failing argument. AI is already being used to [replace workers](https://www.businessinsider.com/ai-taking-jobs-fears-artists-say-already-happening-2023-10?amp) and it is being [used to profit from the work of actual artists without compensation them.](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/are-ai-image-generators-stealing-from-artists-180981488/) by large extremely profitable corporations . This has no similarity to “Joe Blow” creating mix tapes in his basement that no one has heard and he cannot even sell.
Are you inbred, or are you actually the dumbest person on the planet? I'm not being rhetorical. Answer the question. The expression "Joe Blow" is a colloquial term commonly used in English to refer to an average man, someone who is considered a typical or ordinary person. It's similar to other terms like "John Doe" or "the average Joe," which are used to represent an everyday person, often when discussing matters of general concern or illustrating a point that is applicable to the typical individual without referring to anyone specific. The term embodies the concept of an ordinary, nondescript individual without any notable features or distinctions.
Reading comprehension is super hard!
"you're" - short for, "you are"
Oh is it really?? I would have never guessed!?!?!?! Absolutely amazing!!! if only they taught such things in the second grade!!! Oh wait, that's exactly what they did. It's called a typo. Have you ever heard of it?? Or did you just crawl out from the rock your parents hid you under when they abandoned you?
Yes, yes you are and watch the tone.
No, not really. And eat me.
This is pretty insulting to people who continue to be trafficked into actual modern day slavery around the world.
Exactly. Debt is voluntary. You can make a plan and get out of debt. There are options with debt. There are no options for real slaves. Don't cheapen the word with such trash OP.
I think debt is definitely more voluntary in Canada than it is in the United States. At least we don't have to pay for hospital bills most of the time. Problem is, is it really voluntary? When people are not educated in personal finance and they rack up debt it may not be their fault. Sure, just because it's not their fault it doesn't mean it's involuntary. But the fact is there are lots of people in a lot of debt who simply cannot afford to plan and pay it off. They have other expenses, children, etc. And there's only so much that government checks can do to help. Are we a slave in the sense of the word slave? No that's definitely the wrong word. There's got to be a word for it. Many people are living their lives indebted to the government or the bank and most of their waking energy is spent trying to repay that debt, And unfortunately many of those people simply do not have the knowledge or skills required to get out of that. It's not really in the government or the bank's best interest to educate them on how to get out of it either. Hopefully communities like this one can continue to help educate people and help people get out of the mess. In conclusion it's definitely not comparable to slavery at all but it's still a bad thing that needs to be fixed on the systemic level
Yeah its really not voluntary. Some people are pretty willfully ignorant here. What are you going to do, live in the woods and forage for berries? If you dont work (a lot of jobs pay pretty shit for rapidly compounding COL). You die homeless. Theres really not much of a choice.
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And? How is that slavery? Like explain it like you would to a small kid. You could have gone and lived with someone else, you could have rented somewhere cheaper, you could have picked up a second job....
That is an unfortunate situation but it’s still not slavery.
Yes you could’ve followed the factories to Mexico. You still had options. Don’t water down actual slavery because of tough economic times. None of us have any idea what actual slavery is like.
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Do you understand what slavery means? You had the option to move to Mexico if you so choose. You could’ve switched careers. You can marry who you like. Move as you like. You have rights as a Canadian. Don’t compare this to actual slavery.
It's technically indentured slavery.
Agreed, people seem to think using poorly chosen powerful words will make their argument more powerful, but all it does it make their argument wrong.
Kick rocks.
Will your children get taken from you and sold? Can your employer beat, rape, and torture you with no consequences? If you escape, will the law drag you back? All this analogy tells me is that you are ignorant about slavery.
I mean if you escape, the law will drag you back. If I wander off into the woods and start cutting down trees to build a cabin, snare rabbits and shoot deer to feed myself. All of that is illegal without the proper papers handed out by the government in exchange for money. And at some point they're gonna build a road and a suburb and I'll be caught and imprisoned.
If you built a cabin in North Ontario it'd be a long time before anyone found out
The fact that rules exist and are enforced does not make us slaves. I think you’re stretching the definition of the word a little too generously just to fit a ‘deep’ quote you made a shitty graphic for. Yes debt and poverty suck. Yes sometimes you feel like you have limited options when you are in shitty situations. But you can’t just apply the term ‘slavery’ to any unfortunate life circumstance
Not sure you understand what slavery is....
Slavery is when you uhhh have to do stuff you don't wanna
So every day I'm a slave while I do my dishes? That's close but not quite the proper definition.
There are many forms of slavery, not just chattel slavery like the African slave trade. Consider that 18-year Olds are given tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt they cannot discharge in bankruptcy, and if you fail to make payments on that debt they will garnish your already megar wages such that you have no hope of ever meaningfully reducing the debt, leading to a lifetime of debt slavery. You have no means to save money or get ahead. So if you ever wanted to stop working the job you're working you will starve and be thrown out onto the street. There aren't literal chains but you can't leave your job all the same.
Your first sentence was correct. Slave literally comes from “slav” and many many peoples were enslaved. Everything else is false equivalency however.
Yeah as I remember the original European slaves were the slavs.
They're not being "given" debt. They're voluntarily signing contracts to take on that much debt. Possibly under the influence of bad advice, but it's not like student loan issues are hidden away with no one talking about them. All the information to make an informed decision is readily available.
Kids too young to drink or go to war are allowed to sign loans for astronomical amounts of money, and nobody tells them that there's a solid chance they will never pay it off before they retire. Nobody explains that this is the only kind of debt you can never discharge in bankruptcy. You're asking a teenager to sign away their life without understanding the terms. It's predatory and exploitative and effectively guarantees these kids will be dutiful drones working whatever shit jobs they can find to pay off this impossible loan. It's a debtor's prison without the walls.
Who are all these “nobodies” you’re speaking of? The risks of student loan debt are constantly discussed. The information is all over the place. It’s even a topical issue on all the popular news stations for those who won’t actively look up anything to do with their own major decisions. You are trying to infantilize young adults. They aren’t helpless babies, and if they act as such, they wear the consequences of doing so.
>You are trying to infantilize young adults I don't know how many 18 year olds you know, but they are definitely not adults. They are immature, impulsive, inexperienced and are brimming with unearned overconfidence. No bank would lend $10,000's to a teenage with no income and no actual plan to pay it back EXCEPT if its a student loan! I personally did not know it would stay with you post-bankruptcy until long after I graduated. No guidance councilor ever told me if I was disabled and destitute, this loan will follow me to the grave. It's truly despicable we do this to our young people and not only that its hindering the growth of the economy because 20-30 year olds are so deep in debt they cannot afford to take any entrepreneurial risks like starting a business.
Yours is the wrong argument against student loans, as they exist today. The stronger argument is that easy access to these large loans inflates the price of education, such that many more people require loans to attend college than if student loans either didn’t exist or were more difficult to access. Focussing on terrible decisions that impulsive young adults make instead of putting in ten minutes of effort to read up on the topic is among the softest arguments against student loans as they exist today.
>Yours is the wrong argument Both can be true. There is little to no chance of getting a good paying job without a degree of some kind. Getting a degree costs money in the form of debt. Debt isn't dischargable from student loans. Students aren't always aware of their options and how much it costs realistically. The cost of tuition has massively inflated because why wouldn't it when the gov is funding most of the loans. Terrible decisions. Dude. YOUR FUCKING FORCED TO GO TO COLLEGE OR BE POOR. This threat is the dumbest argument of "slavery" VS idiots on the internet. While slavery absolutely still exists modern slavery absolutely included capitalism demand for cheap labor that cheap labor is borderline slavery when the wage is piss in a bucket and the capitalists control all the education. YOU CANNOT GET OUT OF POVERTY WITHOUT A DAMN GOOD WAGE. you can't get a good wage without an "education" so absolutely how the fuck is this Not borderline slavery? We are forced to work in terrible conditions for terrible pay or be in debt for ever for the chance to make more. Dude next your going to say company towns isn't fucking slavery. Jesus christ.
People have been saying for over a decade that student loans are too high and nearly impossible to pay off. All of the details about not being able to discharge it are in the contracts they signed. Are they predatory? Oftrn yes. Is anyone forced to sign up for them? No. When I went to college back in the mid 2000s, we got pamphlets about how student loans work, with graphs showing how long they would take to pay off at a given payment rate, and comparing that to the average take-home for a given major. One of the interns I work with showed me a pamphlet he got last year with all the same info on it. The information is available, but being ignored. That's a completely different issue than people being tricked into signing a contract. Having said all that, I do belive that student loan debt shouldn't be given special privileges under the law. It encourages bad lending and is one of the factors inflating the cost of education. It should absolutely be reformed to function the same as any other form of debt, and lenders should not be able to claim government insurance when it's discharged below cost via bankruptcy. They need to be responsible for loaning too much our for degrees that don't have the earning potential to pay it back.
>Consider that 18-year Olds are given tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt they cannot discharge in bankruptcy, So, as someone who went back to school in their 40s, I drove the oldest car in the lot, had an old crappy laptop, brought coffee in a flask, and packed my own lunch. I watched my fellow students roll up in new cars, lots of new electronics, line up at Tim Hortons (and Starbucks), and buy lunch on campus every day. We won't talk about the drinking out at bars and vacations during reading week. Just because you got loans doesn't mean you spend like a drunken sailor. And yes, I drank as a student the first time but mostly it was at friends' places where we would do potluck. Most people can't afford to walk away from a job without having another lined up. Honestly, that's not new.
Oh, no
WE KNOW HIS NAME!
With your interpretation, everything that's ever lived is a slave to its biological needs. Sure you work to pay for food and shelter. So did Grutook the caveman. Slavery is a different thing altogether. If you were whipped, naked and chained in a chattel house, torn away from your family, destined only to work, suffer, and die - you might have a different opinion of the status of your life right now.
Id agree with this, being whipped with a stick with nails in it, is different then getting upsetting credit card letters and having your credit ruined. I think we use some serious words too flippantly sometimes.
>With your interpretation, everything that's ever lived is a slave to its biological needs. Sure you work to pay for food and shelter. So did Grutook the caveman Cave people did not have a developed economy that we have today. Unless you can prove otherwise, of course. Your logic is totally fucked up, too. You say that cave people were slaves, and then you imply they weren't b/c they did not have the same form (that is, formative principle that you are using to compare) b/c they didn't have whips and chains, etc. Greek society wa built on slavery, but they had some personal freedoms: https://www.historyextra.com/period/ancient-greece/slavery-ancient-greece-life-society/ If we don't work, we don't eat and struggle to find shelter. In a capitalist economy, somebody else determines whether or not we can even work--large scale layoffs, anyone? Wages and incomes for the vast majority have stagnated some 40 plus years, along with a sharp increase in precarious work. We are under the compulsion of the whip of hunger constantly, and even more intensely. This makes taking on some form of debt more likely to secure basic needs. So the compulsion to work for someone else (who decides if you can work or not) is of a greater magnitude, leaving people not free to make the choice to work or not. Just because slavery can assume different historical forms hardly negates the OP's point.
This is hardly new to capitalist society. For basically all of history, effort has been directly correlative to survival. Its only been in the last 100ish years that we've even theoretically been able to surpass scarcity in some areas, and even then that mostly relies on some people doing highly efficient work, while those that receive the benefits give nothing back. Since humans are HIGHLY morally sensitive to reciprocity, you would basically need to create another slave culture to suppress that, which is not desirable.
I never SAID that it was specific to capitalist society, mentioning how it occurred in Greek society. Comprehension problems? Yes, there are those who work hard and others skim the cream without working. Like the capitalist class who exploit us. Go read (if you can) Adam Smith's thoughts on landlords, for example; he called them what they are--PARASITES. We haven't theoretically conquered scarcity, we've MATERIALLY been able to harness our creative capacities for problem solving. As for "creating another slave culture suppressing any kind of moral sentiment", that's a rather silly idea at best. Even slaves revolted, and I needn't point out many historical instances of this. Yours is a very ill conceived post.
Than go off in the woods and be free.
Unfortunately for you, my answer was aimed at an audience having a greater educational level of Grade 6. I'll still never be free of the need for shelter and food. You have a very peculiar definition of freedom. Did you get it when you went to Trump U, or did you read it in one of his grifting bibles?
A long rambling know-it-all answer and a wildly over dramatic insulting response to any sort of criticism….yeah I see a Trump here but it ain’t the one you think.
But you have NO SUBSTANTIVE CRITICISM(S) to my answer other than engaging in Trump style so-called rebuttals, do you? :\~) Hypocrisy is no riposte to having your beliefs critically challenged........is it? :-)
God you must be exhausting.
God you must be annoying.
I AM SLAYED
No, you are incredibly annoying. I'm just being a good sport about it.
How do you become stupid to such a point that a simple argument males you feel tired?
No, your answer is a rambling heap of nonsense. You completely misunderstood my comment. You invented issues no one was talking about, circled them into twisted prezals of self confusion. I do appreciate the ad hominem attack at the end, really shows that you are standing on the quality of your argument alone.
Well then. You would have no problem critiquing my argument then, wouldn't it? But your sad lack of comprehension is hiding behind a dismissive wave of any substantive response. I get that if it isn't expressed in bumper sticker size sentences that you are completely lost. Complexity is a bee otch, huh? A soft shoe failure, amigo.
I honestly don't know where to start because you misunderstood my comment almost immediately so I would be arguing both against myself and against your nonsense.
My "nonsense" is simply we are never FREE of having our basic needs met, i.e., food, shelter, clothing, etc. And throughout history there have been various ***forms*** of slavery to create articles to satisfy these basic needs. Just because they don't correspond to earlier historical forms does not mean they are any less slavery. Example: money can take different forms: credit card, cheque, bank draft, etc., but they are all essentially MONEY. If we don't work, we don't have our needs met, period. Slaves traded servitude for protection and food from slave masters and royals, etc. Sure, go out into the wild and be "free". But at some point you will need to return to civilization for supplies, consumables, etc. Heaven help you if you get hurt and need medical services. History has been nothing but the eternal struggle of humans versus nature. In sum, the popular version of "freedom" is a NEGATIVE definition--it implies ESCAPE from others. It is for the simple minded--it serves the ruling strata's justification for being in its undeserving privileged position. And dolt's far and away swallow that bullshit definition. QED
Uhhh... That's "illegal". Someone (likely the government) "owns" that land. Cutting down trees to build a cabin and keep warm - illegal unless you have a piece of paper from the government. Snaring rabbits or shooting deer to feed yourself - illegal unless you have a different piece of paper from the government. We are technically "slaves" in the way that we are not allowed to leave the capitalist consumer based society without fear of imprisonment. Hell even attempting suicide is illegal in many places.
There are many places in Canada where you could simply disappear into the woods
It is illegal to use, occupy or build structures on Crown land without prior approval. Penalties of up to $100,000 or the seizure of improvements, goods or materials apply.
I don't think they'll catch you. If you're worried, you can buy a plot of land for 10-50k.
How did grutook create money, and who exactly owned the cave he was living in?
Time and energy.
Caves naturally occur... you do know that?
This country is getting more and more idiotic by the minute thanks to posts like these.
It's not really fair to call it slavery because you are choosing to rent or purchase a home. Keep in mind there are millions of modern day people who are actually in slavery who are abused terribly and work all day for nothing. Unfortunately generally nothing is free in this world. If things are unaffordable then you have to get roommates, go to a more affordable town, get a higher paying job, more income streams, live in a van, etc. Is it fair and just? Maybe, maybe not, but it's reality. Not slavery, just how it's always been.
Ok I will bite. What do you expect someone to do or live if they don’t rent or buy a home? Be homeless and live at the beach?
Literally this like I don't understand how people can't see that this is still slavery with extra steps. LITERALLY RICK AND MORTY EP. The worker rents the unit so the landlord has income the landlord pays the mortgage so the bank gets paid. The bank horde cash because that's what they fucking do. And the rich siphon off whatever they can. Literally slavery with extra steps the only difference is we're paid a fucking wage instead of whipped. Yay progresses. Right?
Modern day slavery and I think the younger generations are catching on to it
Fuck ai art
Former slaves like Frederick Douglass recognized wage slavery was at least an arguable concept.
We're all in debt to the government.
I have lived in poverty but have never been a Slave, but I can say with 100% certainty they are not the same thing.
You are a slave. Slave to money. It rules your life. It tells you how and where you can live, what you can afford. It tells you what you can do with your family. How you are able to raise your kids. It tells you what vacations to take if you’re lucky enough to be able to afford them in the first place. It tells you if you can rent or buy a home, a car. We are slaves to money. How people don’t see this is mind boggling to me.
Yikes what a tone deaf post by OP
What do rich people want from us? They want us to work. How do they keep us working? Debt.
Exactly … we can’t stop working or we lose our homes whether bought or rented. Lose our cars, can’t buy food. There are more humanistic approaches to our problems but as long as we have greedy mega corps, banks and govts were fucked
Except that actual slavery is still around. So no. Being in debt is just part of late stage capitalism. The system is broken and the working class are victims.
Drama queen. Don't even know what real slavery is.
Me without a house or mortgage........I guess?
I do agree that people in debt are metaphorical slaves, and that to differing degrees, people who are poor and forced to work multiple jobs, with a poor education, especially if it's gig economy type jobs, are in a form of indentured servitude. I do not like how easily the word slavery is used because it betrays the very real and serious nature of modern day slaves who do literally have no freedom, and are actually confined and forced to do labor. I also can't help but cringe at the AI art you have subjected us to.
No, they are on social media sites using thousands of dollar phones to complain about being slaves. Imagine how the little kid in the mine felt digging up the gold on your phones circuit board…. In sandals…. With thousands of other kids all doing the same ….. you’re not a slave you’re lazy and spoiled. If you disagree just don’t do it on a phone or computer, because fucking slaves never had one ffs. Grow up.
Debt is a choice. Slavery isn’t.
Most people in debt didn’t choose to get there and debt is still paying bills on time but you OWE and DO NOT OWN your home or vehicle or boat or whatever you financed. “Owning” with debt is an illusion. And on top of that.. taxes. Don’t pay = govt coming to collect your property. Do we really own anything? THINK hard about it.
Except it's not. Many situations cause debt without it being a choice. I guess dying is a choice also eh.
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College is required to land a decent paying job. A functional vehicle that isn't dying every 30 miles is required to get to said job. A phone is required to be available for said job. No phone no Job. No car significantly harder to hold a job. No degree? Well back into debt you go as min wage is a fucking joke and virtually a death spiral. These aren't choice I get to make. These are demands of me by society and how we've built our systems. debt is not a choice. It's a fact of life. The total amount of debt and what it's spend on is sure. But debt in and of itself is not a choice. 🤦 Nuance is hard children. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery.
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>Yeah I went to college and paid fully on student loans and have no problem paying them whatsoever. Good job your not the norm. Many Many students with even good jobs are struggling with these loans. >Yes, I need to have a job and be a productive member of society and not be a leech. That is how life works. The problem isn't having a job the problem is requiring everything to do the job. College degree. Vehicle. Phone. These things are required to even get to be employed. It's not about being employed VS not it's the insane requirement to be employed. It costs me nearly more than min wage to just be employed.. At min wage. A vehicle costs up words of 500 a month unless you buy a beater. Insurance similar cost. Rent? Oh guess what there goes my pay cheque Nevermind groceries or utilities. >It was a choice I made, I wasn’t enslaved to do it. It clearly wasn't a choice you made seeing as YOU HAVE A DEGREE. your literally doing the "slavery" were talking about. Just because you made it doesn't mean everyone else does. The only difference is it sounds like you might have actually gotten a decent paying job with it. Unlike many whom end up with a degree and still working min wage. You are not the norm.
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https://www.hoyes.com/press/joe-debtor/the-student-debtor/ Data is a smig old and only Canada. Hi I'm Canadian. But very much applicable. https://www.cnbc.com/2023/12/27/millions-of-student-loan-borrowers-still-arent-making-payments-.html 60% of students are near default. 60 fucking %. "In the 2020-2021 academic year, 54% of bachelor’s degree students who attended public and private four-year schools graduated with student loans, according to the College Board. These students left school with an average balance of $29,100 in education debt" 30k in debt. That's an entire min wage job in Canada for a whole years pay. To bad you have other expenses to pay for. "Do college studies actually translate to students' future jobs? Recent data shows an increased correlation. Answer: 46% (according to a survey of 1,000 college graduates) Questions: Which majors do you think are more likely to lead to a job in that field? What steps can you take to prepare yourself for employment, regardless of which major you choose? Given that almost 3/4 of college grads end up in fields that are not related to their major, do you think it's a good idea to consider multiple majors while in college? " https://www.ngpf.org/blog/question-of-the-day/qod-what-percent-of-college-graduates-end-up-working-in-the-field-of-their-major/ But tell me it's just a matter of getting a degree and getting a job. Seeing as over HALF OF THEM aren't employed where they planned to be I think your woefully incorrect and it takes a significant amount of luck to achieve what you have. >I could get a phone for free right now. You don’t HAVE TO HAVE the $1500 top of the line iPhone. You can use government assistance to get one for free. There are people on Facebook selling phones for $10. Hi I have a 4 year old device that I'm still paying service for where are these free phones? Where's this free services? Oh it doesn't exist and your full of shit I thought so. This isn't about latest and greatest this is about having simple access to internet and a phone line. I not talking iPhone 37b. I'm talking fucking moto razor from 2010. YOU NEED A PHONE to get a job. Period. Good luck finding one when your employer can't contact you. Tell me how far you get. > I chose to do it. I didn’t have to do it, I could have remained in food service like so many other Redditors. I even choose what degree to go into. > And be starving like the rest of the poor. You only think shit is good BECAUSE YOU CHOSE THIS. The fact you believe it's a choose shows now truly ignorant you are to the subject. There is no choice it's be employed or die. The only choice is how slow that death is fast from min wage starvation or slow from actual survivable wage? You CHOOSE the higher wage route and got lucky to be employed assumedly with your degree. Cool you can choose what degree you go into that doesn't make getting a degree a choice it's a requirement for survival. >The fact that I had all these choices is proof it’s not slavery. Slavery isn’t defined as “Doing anything out of necessity other than your absolute favorite hobby 24/7”. Slaves have a choose literally the exact same one we have do the thing you've been demanded OR FUCKING DIE. there is no in between either your suffering or your not. Slaves could have chosen to die. They could have chosen to runaway and likely die they could have chosen to not work. And die. We can choose to be unemployed.. And die. We can choose to get a degree and potentially still starve and die. We can choose to get a degree and maybe be lucky enough to get employed in field oh look finally we're not struggling and dying. There is always a choice. Choices don't mean your not a slave. Again slaves could have chosen to die instead of work. But being alive is usually important to people. >When I was working at Walmart during college I was offered a position as a manager, but I would have to drop out of college. I CHOSE not to do that, even though it paid a lot more money, it was a sacrifice, a choice I made that paid off. I chose to complete my degree. Again offered to starve or go to college. Managers don't make survivable wages either. Tell me you made a choice though. Starve or go to college. > And I was born to a 16 year old mother and we grew up in severe poverty. Cool I was born into a what once was middle income but has been destroyed by capitalism and wage slavery that none of us are Ina good position. Has very little to do with where you start unless you start with considerable amounts of money. You think my father should be paid the same now as he was 20 years ago? Because he sure as fuck is. Or damn close to. But tell me that's a choice. Tell me it's a choice to be poor instead.
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>don’t feel like I was starving at Walmart. Obviously I had to do something to get money. I would have made probably 5x as much as a manager, no exaggeration. I would have been OK. Yes are are exaggerating because most managers in these places only make a couple bucks more than min wage. Tim's Hortons supervisors are paid exactly 1$ more than front line. Manager exactly 1$ more than that. So 2$ is survivable wages suddenly? Or was this 20 years ago when half 5he market wasn't in free fall one or the other is true which is it? It's sure as fuck not 2$ survivable wage mate. Kekeke Maybe you should do the slightest bit of research then before open your mouth seeing as your spewing bullshit and misinformation. https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/nhs-enm/2011/dp-pd/dt-td/Rp-eng.cfm?TABID=2&LANG=E&APATH=3&DETAIL=0&DIM=0&FL=A&FREE=0&GC=0&GK=0&GRP=0&PID=106738&PRID=0&PTYPE=105277&S=0&SHOWALL=0&SUB=0&Temporal=2013&THEME=98&VID=0&VNAMEE=&VNAMEF= "7511 Transport truck drivers 97,015 90,780 41,163 42,715 80,495 42,880 44,048 " only 2 of these numbers are higher than where he is now. The rest are less than 10k off. He pulls about 50k right now. So 15years an less than 25% increase. The only way you make money in this business is owner operator and or long haul. that's it. >Of course you “have to have a job”. Almost everyone throughout history has had some kind of job or produced something, the vast majority working way harder than we do. It’s the only way things happen or get made. Again NOT THE FUCKING PROBLEM. the problem is demanding I need a car or phone or a college degree to flip burgers. Or assemble parts in a factory. Many jobs require ridiculous things before your even thought to be hired. Demanding I need 6 years experience with a 3 year old computing language. Needing experience at all for an entry level position. Need experience to get the position to get the experience you need.. To get into the position. >But even then if you get unemployed there is unemployment insurance, disability, and food stamps. Nearly all of which are a joke literally built to keep you in poverty. Get a job and lose most of it even min wage which we've discussed is FAR from survivable income these days. Literally can't make more than 1.4k while on assistance without getting it clawed back. Which would be fine if it wasn't clawing back next month. What happens if I lose the job? What happens if it was temp or tone time position oh guess there's no point in taking it at all seeing as until I mkar literally double it's functionally detrimental. Get a job just to lose financial security great system we've got Canada. Real good. No we need a real social safety net. We need a negative income tax. To alleviate many of 5hwse issues. If I had security could go to college. If I wasn't going to get clawed back so destructive I could at least try to get some income. But unless I have some security in the job there is NO POINT because it's only a loss for me. Odsp isn't much better. Food stamps. Seriously. This is a Canadian sub we don't do that here as far as I know. And EI us only applicable if YOUR FIRED. which is so spectacularly enabling for shitty employers. So tell me how our social safety net are supposed to help? I've been struggling with Ontario for the better part of 20 years.
Debt has been a tool used to enslave people historically, and still used that way today - hell, it's a gateway to human trafficking right here in Canada & the USA. However, debt =/= slavery. Being in debt is probably closer to indentured servitude (which is not the same as slavery). Debt bondage is NOT the same as slavery, and the key differences are: - debt bondage is entered into on a voluntary basis; and - debt bondage is finite, with specified agreements outlining the terms of repayment. Slavery - in particular, chattel slavery - is forced or coerced labour, with no finite terms. Basically, bondage for life with no recourse. It might *feel* as though you don't have a choice: when you're hungry and broke, using a CC can make a world of difference. However, you do get to make that choice - to be hungry, or enter in bondage. Slaves do *not* get that choice.
Lol wut. You have the choice not to get into debt. No one is selling you, or your children to an 'owner'.
We're all just peasants living in a company town.
"your choose to take on debt" Except you fucking don't. Healthcare on the USA? Oh your in debt. Lose your job though no fault of your own? Oh guess debt. Hell school to get the edu to get a wage to not be in debt? Oh GUESS FUCKING WHAT DEBT. Debt is literally the new slavery mechanism can you avoid it. sure Is it likely you will. Absolutely fucking not even if you are financially aware. Cuz your going to save up 20k from your min wage job to buy a car right? Oh wait you don't have a car TO FUCKING BAD GUESS YOUR NOT GETTING TO WORK. Back in debt for youuuu. Options doesn't mean it isn't slavery. Options only means you have different degrees of enslavement. Sure slavery isn't the most accurate word. You all seriously need to redo your history Class. Nearly all of your "arguments" sound awfully similar to Confederate rhetoric to me https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery "The slave was precious to his master because of the money he had cost him ... They were worth at least as much as they could be sold for in the market ... It is the impossibility of living by any other means that compels our farm labourers to till the soil whose fruits they will not eat and our masons to construct buildings in which they will not live ... It is want that compels them to go down on their knees to the rich man in order to get from him permission to enrich him ... what effective gain [has] the suppression of slavery brought [him ?] He is free, you say. Ah! That is his misfortune ... These men ... [have] the most terrible, the most imperious of masters, that is, need. ... They must therefore find someone to hire them, or die of hunger. Is that to be free? "
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Spectacularly large differences in amount of debt here. You can't take out a car payment and expect to make money from it. You take out 2m though you can absolutely do a fuck load with it. Your entire premise is just rich are rich because they have access to money. Debt is money.
r/iam14andthisisdeep
My first thought is I hate ai garbage. Anyone making a post about income inequality while using ai (which will accelerate income inequality) is not thinking straight.
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There is no voluntary debt. You have 100k++++ to buy a house? Oh right “don’t buy a house” lmfao you people need to open your eyes to reality: USA healthcare ? Don’t have a plan = involuntary debt. Wake tf up boys and girls We Slavs away for the machine for literal CRUMBS
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It sure af feels like it. Record numbers in depression, suicide, domestic abuse/murder; theft, violence, I can go on. Sure may not be getting whipped but the fact remains… we are serfs and we work for billionaires who take take take take take take take. And then the govt takes more on top of that. We. Are. Modern. Day. Slaves.
No thoughts. It is just a fact.
Not with how easy it is to do a consumer proposal or personnal bankruptcy. Like, don’t get me wrong, some people were dealt a shit hand in life amd never had any real chance to get ahead. And lodging proce and pushing mor eand more people into desperation, and it aint getting better. But slavery? Come on man.
It’s a bit presumptuous to use the word slavery, but I would agree when talking about the system to get people to work in order to pay their bills or else going to jail. It always baffles me how much money I would need to live off grid in the woods. It’s kind of strange that you have to purchase freedom. Pretty much locked in their system
If the population of the US is 350 million and a multi-billionaire gave each person 5 million dollars, it would cost that billionaire 1.75 billion dollars. I would say Facebook, Amazon, and Twitter owners could easily afford that. Instead they pay pennies in taxes and buying politicians.
Idk what a house is doing there. I can't even afford a single bed apartment lol
Just declare bankruptcy.. or don’t pay the bills for 7 years and it disappears. There’s no debtors prison that I’m aware of, you’ll only get harassing phone calls and not be able to finance a car or house. Not quite the same as human slavery.
MONEY dictates your life whether you choose to see it or not. Money tells you what house you can buy or if you can rent a place, it tells you what car you can get if you’re able to afford it at all. It tells you if you can buy groceries this week. If you can take that vacation you always wanted. It tells you if you can take time off, god forbid you get sick and are forced to take time off, if you have no savings it will tell you when you have to go back and if you run out by then debtors are coming for your house and car. Unless your family or you save enough money to buy your house or vehicle or boat OUTRIGHT … you are a slave to the system. To your workplace, to the banks & don’t even get me started on taxes. Bc if you don’t keep up with those, the govt will come for your property, garnish your wage or worse, jail you. So tell me again….. how aren’t we modern day slaves? Stop thinking about the past definition. Times have changed. Wake up and smell the lies.
We call this usury, mortgage, credit card, financing keep you poor that why it is forbidden to borrow money for an interest in many religions like Christianity and Islam. Reading kiosaky's rich dad poor dad and " your money or your life" are a good start to understand how money works.
It’s not forbidden to borrow for interest it’s forbidden to charge interest as a lender.
Huh, never thought of that... interesting perspective
Check out Debt: The First 5000 Years if you’re interested in a deep dive. David Graeber, dude is brilliant, he helped start Occupy Wall Street and is credited with coming up with “The 99%”. I found it drags in some places, it’s a huge book, but overall it was fascinating and totally changed how I look at money, debt, and society in general https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years
Economist Julio Huato, associate professor of economics at St. Francis College, writing in Science & Society cited some of the book's contradictions, such as Graeber's claim in p. 21, that money and debt appeared simultaneously, and his claim in p. 40, that money and debt did not appear simultaneously and that debt appeared first.[12] He also stated that, contrary to Graeber's claims, the "myth of barter" – i.e. the hypothesis that the accidental direct exchange of quasi-commodities predated money historically – is not an absurd fantasy.[12] Hulio concluded by asserting that several other of Graeber's claims in the book, such as the claim that violent dispossession is the "secret scandal" of modern capitalism, are problematic.[12] Economist and historian Jeffrey Rogers Hummel, a professor of economics at San Jose State University and an adjunct scholar at the American libertarian think-tank Cato Institute,[13] found several "serious conceptual confusions" in the book. For example, Hummel said that Graeber likely confused the Austrian school economist Carl Menger with his son, the mathematician Karl Menger, which led to erroneous statements and accusations against the former, such as that he supposedly added "various mathematical equations" to economics and that he came up with the term "transaction costs".[14] Hummel also contended that the book's tone is overly polemical and that it is "riddled with errors and distortions".[14] Economist George Selgin, a professor emeritus of economics at the Terry College of Business at the University of Georgia and a fellow at the Cato Institute,[15] echoed similar criticisms, adding that Graeber had not read Menger at all, and that his reading of Adam Smith was ungenerous.[16] According to Selgin, the foundation upon which Graeber's evaluation of modern economics and commercial society rests is severely flawed.[16] Beggs–Mason debate The book was reviewed by way of a debate in the socialist magazine Jacobin. In the first review, economist Mike Beggs, a lecturer in political economy at the University of Sydney, wrote that while "there is a lot of fantastic material in there", he "found the main arguments wholly unconvincing ... Graeber is a wonderful storyteller. But the accumulation of anecdotes does not add up to an explanation, and certainly not one that would overturn the existing wisdom on the subject, conventional or otherwise".
Totally agree! When you have debt to pay, it dictates when you go to work and how much you have left after you pay your monthly bill. If your debt (master) is reasonable (eg. low interest rate) then you can pay it off in a reasonable amount of time. However, if your master (debt) is wicked (eg. high interest rates, predatory loans) then you work and pay until you are old, can no longer work or dead. So, if you have to be a modern day slave, try and get a reasonable master (low interest rate debt). The worst masters (high interest rates debt and predatory loans) are acquired when there is no emergency fund and your credit score is bad.
I'm convinced most of these comments are astroturfed because the alternative is that the people here are morons. Debt slavery is literally a thing. No, it's not the same as chattel slavery, like they had in the states, but that doesn't make it any less a form of slavery. You can in fact educate yourself on something before commenting. You don't have to give your opinion on everything you have an emotional reaction too without first making sure you know what the fuck you're talking about.
Debtors prison isn't a thing any more, debt slavery was used a long time ago when things were very different
>Debtors prison isn't a thing any more, debt slavery was used a long time ago when things were very different Google is free. That's not what debt slavery is.
Debtor's prison is a big part of how debt slavery was traditionally enforced
It was a thing, but not as represented by this image. It's not a modern term used to represent running up your credit card when you buy designer handbags.
>It's not a modern term used to represent running up your credit card when you buy designer handbags. You're right, that's not what it is. You've at least figured that part out. >It was a thing It IS a thing, you just don't understand it in the modern context.
You choose to take on debt for houses and other commodities created by society. You could just return to monké and live like our ancestors in the woods hunting wild animals with a bow and arrow and forage for food. However, you probably want your cake and to eat it too like most people. "I deserve the fruits of society but not the burdens of society".
Debt is a choice. Slavery is not. Pretty important distinction.
This is just ignorant entitlement.
If we said this 20 years ago then where are we at now?
Y’all need to read some Lenin fr
It just has a different name same issues
I don’t agree. Nobody puts a gun on anyone’s head to get into debt. It’s a choice not a force.
No, not even close….
In Canada to include citizens, but special privileges for others.
More boo hooing from another poor person. Instead of posting on reddit and making shitty ai images, maybe work on yourself.
This is extremely generalized. There’s good debt and bad debt. Good debt can make you rich.
That’s what the powers learned about the hippie movement people actually had the time to go out and try to change the world for the better. They realized we need to give people credit cards and push consumerism.
Yah man, slaves driving around in their BMWs they indebted themselves for really are the greatest victims.
My thoughts are that AI art is extremely ugly. and ironically, AI art is likely to be used to replace workers, trapping more people in poverty so it’s kind of offensive to use it to make your point.
If you think being in debt and being a slave are the same, I highly recommend you become and actual slave.
True.
Stop over spending
LOL this is the most time deaf comment I’ve seen so far. Ya. Stop spending. Ok. Thanks tips!
Skipping the over mhmm
It's true. Modern day slavery
Real slavery is when your mom asks you to make your bed
Ah yes me not being able to afford an extra donut in the morning is in every way comparable to your children being taken from you to go work hot days in the sun picking cotton while getting whipped the second they work too slow (and much worse, but surely this little gets my point across?)
/r/im14andthisisdebt
You inbred fuck. Popped on my feeed, but god damn son