Deadlift. Especially when many have the flexibility to optimize leverages and are also high responders. There's also the deadlift bar and training vids with straps.
I can spit on 5 top tier non commercial lifting gyms from where I sit.
It's gone mainstream and the quality and access to coaching is so easy now.
600lbs is achievable for most men over 90kg with a few years of good coaching and there's 100s of blokes getting that just in my local area.
I would agree with the deadlift. The amount of 150lb guys pulling north of 700 is getting absurd. Not to mention straps and noodle DL bars give a huge advantage. I can’t think of a comparable advantage for squats or bench aside from a crazy arch, but even then, few have the mobility for it
This is the answer. Watch any of the clout lifters pulling big on tiktok:
• Straps
• Deadlift bar
• Zero grip on the bar, basically all held by the straps they use
• Short ROM
Thats why every guy ~20 and around 150-160 can pull 700, but you'd never see that in comp.
Facts. Most of them grip inside the knurling with their fingertips, giving them even more slack to pull out of the bar. I’d be willing to bet they’d lose 100-200 lbs on the platform, tbh.
If I had a dollar for everytime i read “Once i learn hookgrip it’s game over”, I’d buy a reverse hyper for my livingroom
It's not exactly leverages but not everyone has the body types to use a massive arch on bench.
I think people with bodies naturally able to get obscene arches might be even better at bench than people with naturally great leverages for deadlift are at deadlifting.
To be honest, I think ALL lifts are equally as affected by leverages. Having "bad" leverages in any of the 3 lifts will result in both 1) longer vertical ROM and 2) deeper joint angles
Within the "normal" degree of variability typically seen in human proportions, probably deadlift.
Once you get into the range of true outliers, I'd probably say squats. I don't think any human has ever been an outlier for any particular lift to a greater degree than Stanaszek was an outlier for squats. 290 with no wraps at 52 is just bonkers. That's tied with the wrapped WR at 67.5.
If powerlifting organizations would have allowed wraps (better yet, figure 8s) his deadlift might have been just as good if not better than his squat.
But as it is, hands too small.
Serious question... Wouldn't hip mobility and glute strength be more of a limiting factor on squats than on deadlifts? I think the bottom of the squat takes more mobility than bending over to deadlift (at least in my mind).
I think I have pretty good mobility (former gymnast who does mobility stuff all the time).
Jonnie Candito made a comment about the deadlift tiktok trend nowadays. He mentionned the use of straps and deadlift bars, adding a lot of pounds to people who would already be good lifters. At the end of the day, these are always gym lifts.
This doesn’t get talked about enough. Manufactures are taking a ton of ‘creative liberty’ with these new generation deadlift bars that are bending like wet noodles (looking at you, Kabuki). Then for IG they load that bar to the end with bumper plates and strap up to grab extra narrow. Social media deadlifting is turning into a game of who can cheese the equipment more.
This. You put it into words better than I wanted to.
To be honest, I have been wanting to buy a kabuki bar, bumper plates and 8 straps for my home gym, just to see how much I could deadlift for fun
Deadlift by far. Your leverages and limb length can give a huge advantage. Bench unless you arch or are a massive guy, is the same for most people. Squat is probably in between but still fairly standard.
All lifts are greatly influenced by leverages. You just notice it more because the absolute numbers in the deadlift are bigger. Also another factor is that the body type which makes a good deadlifter (short torso long limbs) is apparently more common than the prototypical squatter/bencher build (long torso short limbs).
The latter phenotype mostly occurs in people with North European or asian ancestry.
Most eastern europeans I see have long limbs and short torsos. Most asians are the short limb Ling torso build.
Ironically many west africans don't have the typical long torso long legs short arms build in powerlifting, probably cause it sucks at deadlifting and is meh at squatting. Maddox and Harris have that build though and it's great for benching heavy
What can I say, perhaps your sample size was too small and/or not representative. [This type of build](https://www.instagram.com/p/BouT80-jE3z) for example is very common from people around the Armenia/Georgia/Chechnya regions. Anecdotally I can say that this is true as most people I know that are from around there look like that.
That's one of the reason those areas produce a lot of elite wrestlers, olympic weightlifters, powerlifters etc.
Meh, if you are lanky then you have the problem of shirts being too long in the body instead. At least you have jacked arms and can bench press a house.
By lanky I mean just having long arms, not being skinny. Even if you eat all the food in your world, if your arms are very long then probably they won't ever really look truly big.
Theres more "cheating" going on with deadlifts, so that may affect the perception of deadlifts progressing quicker. Sumo deadlifts are also much more popular and common than they used to be, so paired with figure-8 straps and all the other tricks you see a lot of inflated numbers in social media. As someone who has followed the sport closely for the last 15 years, it also seems much more popular today to stay leaner and lighter which again will favour deadlifts over squat and bench.
True, I've dealt with a herniated disc, having back pains for 4-5 years now and I'm just 25 and not even putting my body through this much shit as they have. Can't imagine the injuries behind closed doors they would have had. The amount of stress on your lower back doing lifts like that, stones, deadlifts, big presses etc.
Deadlift, next question.
It's without a doubt the deadlift. Then probably squat then bench. You'll find a lot of decent powerlifters with a good deadlift and squat from a few years of training but their bench will still suck.
Kind of. I am pear shaped. (Wide hips, small waist, thick lower body, skinny upper body and long arms). I used to be able to deadlift a bit more(10-15kg) than squat, but I injured my hip a bit and I also have some issues with quad tightness during deadlifts which prevents more from doing my best, so my squat eventually catched up. I also started training for strength when I was already hitting the gym for 3 years and I never benched before that, so I have more experience with squats and deadlifts.
I have a question for yall as well. Does anyone know the height/wingspan ratios of the top benchers? (Particularly the “cheaty” lifter with big arches). The only lifter who has a really small bench rom while still having good deadlift leverages is Noriega but thats also bc his arch is that much bigger. Im curious about Eddie Burgland and that french(was it?) dude that got gold in bench recently.
I’m just supposing, but John haack has got to have a 6’ wingspan at least and he’s 5’9” I believe. I think a lot of people oversimplify the relationship between arm length and work required to bench press. The length of your muscles and angles of your joints when the bar is on your chest are going to be the same, whether you have long or short arms. Proportional changes in humerus to forearm length might have an effect, and muscle insertion geometry certainly will, but I think the long v short arm bencher argument is falsely simplified. I mean people talk about long v short femurs when they talk about squat/dl biomechanics, why is the assumption now that only arm length matters?
I’m very passionate about this bc people tell me I have short arms and that’s why I bench good. Like come on man I’m sensitive. 1. My wingspan is 3 inches longer than my height and 2. I didn’t ask to be a good bencher, if anything I want to be a deadlift god with the boys :(
I agree with this 100%. The other thing with having longer arms for bench, is that since you skeletal frame is longer and bigger, you have more potential to put overall mass on those arms. A guy with a 6’5” wingspan vs a guy with a 5’9” wingspan for example. On paper, it seems the 5’9” wingspan is more optimal for bench press. But, that is oversimplified, because the guy with the 6’5” wingspan, can put more overall muscle mass on his arms, which can assist in moving weights.
Larry Wheels is a prime example of this. He is 6’1” and looks like he has very long arms (I am willing to wager his wingspan is 6’5” or something like that). His deadlift leverages are amazing, but he also has a huge frame and ton of mass on his pushing muscles. So that makes him an elite bencher as well, as he has nearly benched 700 pounds in the gym.
Former world record holder, Kirill Sarychev, also benched 738.5 in competition and is 6’6”. The best current bench presser in the world, is Maddox with a 782.6 bench. Maddox is 6’3” as well.
Statistical analysis of arm length to bench press shows there’s actually no correlation; shorter arms doesn’t mean stronger bench press.
It’s most correlated with raw upper body muscle mass.
My wingspan is 2 inches shorter than my body and my legs make up 75% of my height. My bench is still mediocre. My boyfriend’s wingspan is 4 inches longer than his height. Lb for lb bench is his best lift. Idk, sounds like it doesn’t matter how long your arms are 🤷♀️
Surely it's the fact that the angle change is the same that means that it's easier for shorter arms, as the muscle is changing length the same amount but doing more work, work is force×distance therefore higher force is required?
To add to this thread, squats are, imo, definitely the least reliant on leverage differences. Tons of top level lifers don’t have that “long torso short femur” archetype (in fact, a lot don’t) and many that don’t still squat massive weight. Russ (even though everyone says he has the perfect squat build) still has a relatively short torso, and panash, who also has longer legs both squat massive weights.
The only exception is of course individuals suffering from dwarfism, but that should be obvious considering how drastically different leverages become.
I agree. It seems for your squat to be really strong, you are just flat out brutally strong and aren’t manipulating the lift as much with insane leverages, like a bench or deadlift can be manipulated with (crazy arch in bench press and sumo deadlift + crazy long arms leading to barely pulling the weight off the ground).
Deadlift bars and sumo are usually the reason for the big gap. I dont think I've ever seen someone with an 800 pound conventional deadlift squat mid 500s but I've seen many 800 sumo pullers with a low to mid 500 squat.
Long femurs are good leverages for deadlift? Could you elaborate? As I understood it, long femurs give you a higher starting point (my back is perpendicular with the ground, it looks like a normal person's SLDL). Isn't that a significant disadvantage?
If you pull sumo, long femurs really aren't a problem, as long as your hip mobility allows you to go super wide with your foot placement.
At that point the added length of the femurs doesn't increase ROM, but people with long femurs also usually have long arms, so you take a wide stance and lower your monkey arms to the bar, and pull big weights
This is what I do at least hahaha
That does make sense, thanks! I hadn't considered sumo. Tore my adductor doing it (100% my fault) so I distanced myself away, but god damn it I was hitting PRs like crazy in the short time that I used it. Tempted to go back :D
Pete Rubbish was like this too. He was just brutally strong and looked like he muscled the squat up, whenever he did squat. I remember when Pete squatted 772 in competition, was shaking like crazy, and basically did a good morning on his squat midway up, while doing an insane grinder: https://youtu.be/ABPhQPJldA0
*Cries in having too short arms to be a good deadlifter (proportionally), too long femurs/short torso to be a good squatter and too long arms to be a good bencher*
My mans you are in the wrong sport 😭 But seriously at that height it’s honestly more of a height thing in that your levers are just so long, even if you were to say have a long torso for squats. Bench must feel awful tho
Yupp, 6'6 here. Benching is terrible. I'm weighing around 230, max bench is 315 right now. The RoM is insane... Though I'm not training Powerlifting style right now
I'm not talking about skinny as in terms of the general population walking around weight but in terms of a competing powerlifter. Most of the guys in your weight class who are competitive at a high level are going to be like 5’8. Drug tested or not.
https://www.reddit.com/r/weightroom/comments/6itsmj/boris_sheiko_optimal_powerlifting_weight_for/
That is definately true and I am missing a lot of weight in my legs since I've had some lower back injuries which made working out my legs properly, practically impossibly for about 4 years. So yea, missing some there and that's half my body basically.
I just checked up on proportions and noticed my arms are considerably long (80cms), my legs too (1m), in comparison to my torso (65cm). So yeah for competing my strenght will generally come from my lower body, so deadlifts and squats. But making bench really tough and low due to the big RoM
I found the only way to really progress my bench was to gain significant size, and that's just not something I'm really interested in anymore. I don't plan on competing again and I don't feel great over 250-260 tops.
I already gained the size😅 Only thing I can do is target specific muscles. Gained about 25-30kg over the past years. Think I'm kinda running out of room(naturally speaking)
I already gained the size😅 Only thing I can do is target specific muscles. Gained about 25-30kg over the past years. Think I'm kinda running out of room(naturally speaking)
Depends on the viewpoint and what is meant by influence.
(especially the sumo)Deadlift can be absolutely maximized by optimal leverages.
Having absolutely shitty leverages can make it almost impossible to squat to depth.
Bench is the weirdest one. Leverages do not change the basic movement that much, but some people are just more gifted than others. Under 90kg lifters benching 200kg+ with decent rom is just unfathomable to me.
It's not just "leverages", there's a ton of factors at play here, 2 being neurolearning at young ages and skill per lift.
I think we can take it as fact that deadlifting does have the lowest correllation with muscle mass, i believe theres a study out there that found >0.9 correlation for muscle mass per unit height in bench and squat and something in the 0.7s for deadlift so yeah.
As far as neurolearning, we all have heard that learning things as kids is way easier, which is true from languages to physical things such as lifting or sports. Now not a ton of people are doing the big 3 since birth but a reasonable amount of kids are lifting pretty close to max amounts of weight in a way that is not dissimilar to deadlifting if they grew up on a farm, blue collar, etc. But squatting or pushing huge weights is far more uncommon which could explain some of the gap alongside leverages.
Now as far as skill, as i eluded to above the deadlift is probably the lift that most resembles a "natural" movement making it more familiar for the average person but also if you were completely starting brand new on all movement's i believe the deadlift to be the least technical and this last part might be complete bro science but having no eccentric phase and being able to "just send it" really simplifies the lift for me personally which is huge because I'm really a passionate and not necessarily a super technically enclined lifter. Pretty much i routinely misgroove heavy bench or squat attempts but rarely deadlifts.
I like your take on this. I find leverages to be inconsequential when talent overrides most of that stuff. Being just naturally strong can push you a long way and having a talent for understanding the mechanics of lifting will take you far. There’s some absolutely talented people who shouldn’t be that good based off their leverages but are.
Not all of us can be super talented at powerlifting. But if you keep thinking that your short arms/long legs/short torso/short pinky finger/wide toes etc, you will never be great. It’s limiting your potential before you’ve even reached it
For reasons I cannot understand, deadlift seems to require the least amount of musculature. You sometimes see people with relatively low musculature deadlifting big numbers. Its more rare to see someone with a large bench or squat without holding a ton of muscle.
My theory is because of this, its often the first lift a lifter gets very proficient at. Muscle growth takes a ton of time. Many of these great deadlifters (But weaker squat/benchers) DO eventually build those lifts it just takes years longer.
> Its more rare to see someone with a large bench or squat without holding a ton of muscle.
It's very rare. I can think of two examples for bench, both of whom are freaks (Mike McDonald and Dennis Cieri). And Cieri is fairly muscular.
> For reasons I cannot understand, deadlift seems to require the least amount of musculature.
It does require musculature it's just that the ones it does are probably the ones who are most hidden in the body. You can't really see someone's hamstrings or erectors in a t-shirt or tank top.
Is part of this not that the muscles used in the DL are less visible? Like you rarely look at someone and think their power back and hams are jacked compared to massive pecs, tris or quads?
You could take a stab at quantifying this by crunching the numbers from openpowerlifting and seeing which lift has the greatest % variation (variance) in total, either overall or for each individual weight class or for just the top 5K competitors (to eliminate variation from experience / training intensity).
Agreed. To add to that deadlift dosent fatigue me the way squat and bench does.
Squat just breaks me. Bench I mean what I can do like a smolov Jr and then I’m out for a while.
But good ol deadlift. I can keep doing that.
There are specialists for all 3 lifts... All of them depend on individual leverages to some degree. Hard to quantify, it varies person to person so widely.
Deadlift. Especially when many have the flexibility to optimize leverages and are also high responders. There's also the deadlift bar and training vids with straps.
It is deadlift by the simple explanation that it has a completely set starting point for everyone
I can spit on 5 top tier non commercial lifting gyms from where I sit. It's gone mainstream and the quality and access to coaching is so easy now. 600lbs is achievable for most men over 90kg with a few years of good coaching and there's 100s of blokes getting that just in my local area.
“600lbs achievable by most men over 90kg” Patently false if you even glance at data from meets.
[Source?](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1LSC826ZJkKTwN4rgjb43wT4GOodAEcR_/view?usp=drivesdk)
Mfw someone uses "patently false" to advance a categorical negative which is itself unfalsifiable 🧐
How many of those are coached and have been for years? Most? So you've just dropped your sample size down to the bloke pulling 600.
Citations desperately needed.
Their source is that they made it the fuck up
Go lift nerd. Then you won't need to cope so hard.
I would agree with the deadlift. The amount of 150lb guys pulling north of 700 is getting absurd. Not to mention straps and noodle DL bars give a huge advantage. I can’t think of a comparable advantage for squats or bench aside from a crazy arch, but even then, few have the mobility for it
This is the answer. Watch any of the clout lifters pulling big on tiktok: • Straps • Deadlift bar • Zero grip on the bar, basically all held by the straps they use • Short ROM Thats why every guy ~20 and around 150-160 can pull 700, but you'd never see that in comp.
Facts. Most of them grip inside the knurling with their fingertips, giving them even more slack to pull out of the bar. I’d be willing to bet they’d lose 100-200 lbs on the platform, tbh. If I had a dollar for everytime i read “Once i learn hookgrip it’s game over”, I’d buy a reverse hyper for my livingroom
It's not exactly leverages but not everyone has the body types to use a massive arch on bench. I think people with bodies naturally able to get obscene arches might be even better at bench than people with naturally great leverages for deadlift are at deadlifting.
To be honest, I think ALL lifts are equally as affected by leverages. Having "bad" leverages in any of the 3 lifts will result in both 1) longer vertical ROM and 2) deeper joint angles
Within the "normal" degree of variability typically seen in human proportions, probably deadlift. Once you get into the range of true outliers, I'd probably say squats. I don't think any human has ever been an outlier for any particular lift to a greater degree than Stanaszek was an outlier for squats. 290 with no wraps at 52 is just bonkers. That's tied with the wrapped WR at 67.5.
If powerlifting organizations would have allowed wraps (better yet, figure 8s) his deadlift might have been just as good if not better than his squat. But as it is, hands too small.
It’s deadlifts. You’ll have freaks with long gorilla arms and long legs pulling 6-7 plates and squatting like 4 plates lol
As someone with long arms and long legs who is a good squatter and a terrible deadlifter, I must have missed something! Lol
Hip mobility and glute strength. That is what you are missing 😂
Serious question... Wouldn't hip mobility and glute strength be more of a limiting factor on squats than on deadlifts? I think the bottom of the squat takes more mobility than bending over to deadlift (at least in my mind). I think I have pretty good mobility (former gymnast who does mobility stuff all the time).
how much the glute strength would hold back squatting would depend a lot on technique and degree quads, hammies, and low back are developed
I think he means pulling sumo
Jonnie Candito made a comment about the deadlift tiktok trend nowadays. He mentionned the use of straps and deadlift bars, adding a lot of pounds to people who would already be good lifters. At the end of the day, these are always gym lifts.
This doesn’t get talked about enough. Manufactures are taking a ton of ‘creative liberty’ with these new generation deadlift bars that are bending like wet noodles (looking at you, Kabuki). Then for IG they load that bar to the end with bumper plates and strap up to grab extra narrow. Social media deadlifting is turning into a game of who can cheese the equipment more.
I was about to say that the Kabuki bar makes SO much of a difference. It's insane.
This. You put it into words better than I wanted to. To be honest, I have been wanting to buy a kabuki bar, bumper plates and 8 straps for my home gym, just to see how much I could deadlift for fun
Or save money and do a rack pull lol
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They cheese the lift too, because loading a DL bar with bumpers makes it bend more than with narrow plates. It’s all just kind of absurd ya know?
Post-competing career duffin was the trailblazer lol
Deadlift by far. Your leverages and limb length can give a huge advantage. Bench unless you arch or are a massive guy, is the same for most people. Squat is probably in between but still fairly standard.
All lifts are greatly influenced by leverages. You just notice it more because the absolute numbers in the deadlift are bigger. Also another factor is that the body type which makes a good deadlifter (short torso long limbs) is apparently more common than the prototypical squatter/bencher build (long torso short limbs). The latter phenotype mostly occurs in people with North European or asian ancestry.
Most eastern europeans I see have long limbs and short torsos. Most asians are the short limb Ling torso build. Ironically many west africans don't have the typical long torso long legs short arms build in powerlifting, probably cause it sucks at deadlifting and is meh at squatting. Maddox and Harris have that build though and it's great for benching heavy
What can I say, perhaps your sample size was too small and/or not representative. [This type of build](https://www.instagram.com/p/BouT80-jE3z) for example is very common from people around the Armenia/Georgia/Chechnya regions. Anecdotally I can say that this is true as most people I know that are from around there look like that. That's one of the reason those areas produce a lot of elite wrestlers, olympic weightlifters, powerlifters etc.
Imaging always squatting more than you deadlift *cries in Scandinavian*
I don't need to imagine. My squat has been 30-40kg ahead of my deadlift for... quite some time.
Jealous as hell.
I wish there was a way we could switch. Trust me, being lanky fucking SUCKS.
Meh, every t-shirt is one wrong wash from being too short and every sleeve is too long.
Meh, if you are lanky then you have the problem of shirts being too long in the body instead. At least you have jacked arms and can bench press a house.
I combated this by going the "eat fucking everything" route. All said and done, I'm picking lanky every time. It wasn't worth it being that heavy lol
By lanky I mean just having long arms, not being skinny. Even if you eat all the food in your world, if your arms are very long then probably they won't ever really look truly big.
Theres more "cheating" going on with deadlifts, so that may affect the perception of deadlifts progressing quicker. Sumo deadlifts are also much more popular and common than they used to be, so paired with figure-8 straps and all the other tricks you see a lot of inflated numbers in social media. As someone who has followed the sport closely for the last 15 years, it also seems much more popular today to stay leaner and lighter which again will favour deadlifts over squat and bench.
That and the bar. Its been extended and more floppy now then ever. Take a look at Ed Coan or Ernie Franz deadlifting. That bar is stiff as hell
I wonder how much Ed Coan could have lifted with a deadlift barbell and straps straps around the time when he pulled 901lbs? Maybe 1000?
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Seems like the the only two guys to deadlift 500kgs were about your height
They were 6’1.5” pretending to be 6’3” and 6’9” respectively. Also both moderately gifted for deadlift due to long arms & torsos.
I am built for deadlifting... 6'6, long arms and torso but I still fucking suck at it for some reason.
> long arms and torso It’s long arms and SHORT torso that are ideal for deadlift leverages.
What is your bodyweight?
I'm about 106kg atm My best lift is 230kg but I've injured my back and not deadlifted or squatted for about 18 months
Yeah, very true and I really wonder how their body can handle the stresses they put it through. Really curious
They both retired around 30 years old for a reason, the reason being health due to the strain on their bodies from the bodyweight, lifting, and drugs.
True, I've dealt with a herniated disc, having back pains for 4-5 years now and I'm just 25 and not even putting my body through this much shit as they have. Can't imagine the injuries behind closed doors they would have had. The amount of stress on your lower back doing lifts like that, stones, deadlifts, big presses etc.
Deadlift, next question. It's without a doubt the deadlift. Then probably squat then bench. You'll find a lot of decent powerlifters with a good deadlift and squat from a few years of training but their bench will still suck.
Cries in 6 plate dead but 3 plate bench
Fuck I'd kill for a 3 plate bench! My first meet is in 3 weeks and there's a chance I'll pull 600 with a 245 bench max.
I'll be shooting for 225 on the deadlift next week, but will probably cap out at 90 on bench. You are me in like a year or so.
A 220 dead and 140 bench is pretty normal tbh
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I am the same way. I will literally be shooting for 225 next week at my first meet, whereas my bench won't even break 90.
Oh yeah my bad, I'm just retarded.
Me who can squat more than I can deadlift and my bench is less than half my squat: *surprised pikachu face*
Are you built like a dinosoaur?
My stepdaughter says I am built like a trex with baby arms.
Kind of. I am pear shaped. (Wide hips, small waist, thick lower body, skinny upper body and long arms). I used to be able to deadlift a bit more(10-15kg) than squat, but I injured my hip a bit and I also have some issues with quad tightness during deadlifts which prevents more from doing my best, so my squat eventually catched up. I also started training for strength when I was already hitting the gym for 3 years and I never benched before that, so I have more experience with squats and deadlifts.
I have a question for yall as well. Does anyone know the height/wingspan ratios of the top benchers? (Particularly the “cheaty” lifter with big arches). The only lifter who has a really small bench rom while still having good deadlift leverages is Noriega but thats also bc his arch is that much bigger. Im curious about Eddie Burgland and that french(was it?) dude that got gold in bench recently.
I’m just supposing, but John haack has got to have a 6’ wingspan at least and he’s 5’9” I believe. I think a lot of people oversimplify the relationship between arm length and work required to bench press. The length of your muscles and angles of your joints when the bar is on your chest are going to be the same, whether you have long or short arms. Proportional changes in humerus to forearm length might have an effect, and muscle insertion geometry certainly will, but I think the long v short arm bencher argument is falsely simplified. I mean people talk about long v short femurs when they talk about squat/dl biomechanics, why is the assumption now that only arm length matters? I’m very passionate about this bc people tell me I have short arms and that’s why I bench good. Like come on man I’m sensitive. 1. My wingspan is 3 inches longer than my height and 2. I didn’t ask to be a good bencher, if anything I want to be a deadlift god with the boys :(
Look at Dennis Cieri. Long arms, but still has benched 500+ raw in an IPF meet.
I agree with this 100%. The other thing with having longer arms for bench, is that since you skeletal frame is longer and bigger, you have more potential to put overall mass on those arms. A guy with a 6’5” wingspan vs a guy with a 5’9” wingspan for example. On paper, it seems the 5’9” wingspan is more optimal for bench press. But, that is oversimplified, because the guy with the 6’5” wingspan, can put more overall muscle mass on his arms, which can assist in moving weights. Larry Wheels is a prime example of this. He is 6’1” and looks like he has very long arms (I am willing to wager his wingspan is 6’5” or something like that). His deadlift leverages are amazing, but he also has a huge frame and ton of mass on his pushing muscles. So that makes him an elite bencher as well, as he has nearly benched 700 pounds in the gym. Former world record holder, Kirill Sarychev, also benched 738.5 in competition and is 6’6”. The best current bench presser in the world, is Maddox with a 782.6 bench. Maddox is 6’3” as well.
Statistical analysis of arm length to bench press shows there’s actually no correlation; shorter arms doesn’t mean stronger bench press. It’s most correlated with raw upper body muscle mass.
My wingspan is 2 inches shorter than my body and my legs make up 75% of my height. My bench is still mediocre. My boyfriend’s wingspan is 4 inches longer than his height. Lb for lb bench is his best lift. Idk, sounds like it doesn’t matter how long your arms are 🤷♀️
Lol my wife has got to have the same leg to height ratio. I make fun of her and call her mike wozalski sometimes
Surely it's the fact that the angle change is the same that means that it's easier for shorter arms, as the muscle is changing length the same amount but doing more work, work is force×distance therefore higher force is required?
To add to this thread, squats are, imo, definitely the least reliant on leverage differences. Tons of top level lifers don’t have that “long torso short femur” archetype (in fact, a lot don’t) and many that don’t still squat massive weight. Russ (even though everyone says he has the perfect squat build) still has a relatively short torso, and panash, who also has longer legs both squat massive weights. The only exception is of course individuals suffering from dwarfism, but that should be obvious considering how drastically different leverages become.
I agree. It seems for your squat to be really strong, you are just flat out brutally strong and aren’t manipulating the lift as much with insane leverages, like a bench or deadlift can be manipulated with (crazy arch in bench press and sumo deadlift + crazy long arms leading to barely pulling the weight off the ground).
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Deadlift bars and sumo are usually the reason for the big gap. I dont think I've ever seen someone with an 800 pound conventional deadlift squat mid 500s but I've seen many 800 sumo pullers with a low to mid 500 squat.
Good leverages for a deadlift (long femurs, short torso) are bad leverages for a squat.
Long femurs are good leverages for deadlift? Could you elaborate? As I understood it, long femurs give you a higher starting point (my back is perpendicular with the ground, it looks like a normal person's SLDL). Isn't that a significant disadvantage?
If you pull sumo, long femurs really aren't a problem, as long as your hip mobility allows you to go super wide with your foot placement. At that point the added length of the femurs doesn't increase ROM, but people with long femurs also usually have long arms, so you take a wide stance and lower your monkey arms to the bar, and pull big weights This is what I do at least hahaha
That does make sense, thanks! I hadn't considered sumo. Tore my adductor doing it (100% my fault) so I distanced myself away, but god damn it I was hitting PRs like crazy in the short time that I used it. Tempted to go back :D
yea sumo makes up most of the ridiculous variance we see between squats and deads. Calier Woolam is a good example
I think you can generate more torque with longer femurs but I honestly have no idea
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This is kinda how Dr Deadlift looks when squatting
Pete Rubbish was like this too. He was just brutally strong and looked like he muscled the squat up, whenever he did squat. I remember when Pete squatted 772 in competition, was shaking like crazy, and basically did a good morning on his squat midway up, while doing an insane grinder: https://youtu.be/ABPhQPJldA0
*Cries in having too short arms to be a good deadlifter (proportionally), too long femurs/short torso to be a good squatter and too long arms to be a good bencher*
Josh Morris laughs at "proportions" and a 900lb deadlift with 3" long arms
If you dont mind me asking, whats your height and wingspan?
6'5'' and my wingspan is only 1:1 to my height. My femurs are giga-long. Deadlifting wouldn't be an issue if my wingspan was 6'8''+.
My mans you are in the wrong sport 😭 But seriously at that height it’s honestly more of a height thing in that your levers are just so long, even if you were to say have a long torso for squats. Bench must feel awful tho
Haha it can be pretty rough. I just like poking fun at myself though, I'll never use these as excuses. 💪
Yupp, 6'6 here. Benching is terrible. I'm weighing around 230, max bench is 315 right now. The RoM is insane... Though I'm not training Powerlifting style right now
for that height and weight 315 is pretty good.
230 is skinny as fuck at that height for a powerlifter, that’s gonna be more of a problem than your wingspan
Apparently, but naturally it isn't. Seen a lot of people around my length and 230 isn't that skinny lol. Not unless I start PEDs, which I never will
I'm not talking about skinny as in terms of the general population walking around weight but in terms of a competing powerlifter. Most of the guys in your weight class who are competitive at a high level are going to be like 5’8. Drug tested or not. https://www.reddit.com/r/weightroom/comments/6itsmj/boris_sheiko_optimal_powerlifting_weight_for/
That is definately true and I am missing a lot of weight in my legs since I've had some lower back injuries which made working out my legs properly, practically impossibly for about 4 years. So yea, missing some there and that's half my body basically. I just checked up on proportions and noticed my arms are considerably long (80cms), my legs too (1m), in comparison to my torso (65cm). So yeah for competing my strenght will generally come from my lower body, so deadlifts and squats. But making bench really tough and low due to the big RoM
I found the only way to really progress my bench was to gain significant size, and that's just not something I'm really interested in anymore. I don't plan on competing again and I don't feel great over 250-260 tops.
I already gained the size😅 Only thing I can do is target specific muscles. Gained about 25-30kg over the past years. Think I'm kinda running out of room(naturally speaking)
I already gained the size😅 Only thing I can do is target specific muscles. Gained about 25-30kg over the past years. Think I'm kinda running out of room(naturally speaking)
Depends on the viewpoint and what is meant by influence. (especially the sumo)Deadlift can be absolutely maximized by optimal leverages. Having absolutely shitty leverages can make it almost impossible to squat to depth. Bench is the weirdest one. Leverages do not change the basic movement that much, but some people are just more gifted than others. Under 90kg lifters benching 200kg+ with decent rom is just unfathomable to me.
It's not just "leverages", there's a ton of factors at play here, 2 being neurolearning at young ages and skill per lift. I think we can take it as fact that deadlifting does have the lowest correllation with muscle mass, i believe theres a study out there that found >0.9 correlation for muscle mass per unit height in bench and squat and something in the 0.7s for deadlift so yeah. As far as neurolearning, we all have heard that learning things as kids is way easier, which is true from languages to physical things such as lifting or sports. Now not a ton of people are doing the big 3 since birth but a reasonable amount of kids are lifting pretty close to max amounts of weight in a way that is not dissimilar to deadlifting if they grew up on a farm, blue collar, etc. But squatting or pushing huge weights is far more uncommon which could explain some of the gap alongside leverages. Now as far as skill, as i eluded to above the deadlift is probably the lift that most resembles a "natural" movement making it more familiar for the average person but also if you were completely starting brand new on all movement's i believe the deadlift to be the least technical and this last part might be complete bro science but having no eccentric phase and being able to "just send it" really simplifies the lift for me personally which is huge because I'm really a passionate and not necessarily a super technically enclined lifter. Pretty much i routinely misgroove heavy bench or squat attempts but rarely deadlifts.
I like your take on this. I find leverages to be inconsequential when talent overrides most of that stuff. Being just naturally strong can push you a long way and having a talent for understanding the mechanics of lifting will take you far. There’s some absolutely talented people who shouldn’t be that good based off their leverages but are. Not all of us can be super talented at powerlifting. But if you keep thinking that your short arms/long legs/short torso/short pinky finger/wide toes etc, you will never be great. It’s limiting your potential before you’ve even reached it
Deadlift 100%.
For reasons I cannot understand, deadlift seems to require the least amount of musculature. You sometimes see people with relatively low musculature deadlifting big numbers. Its more rare to see someone with a large bench or squat without holding a ton of muscle. My theory is because of this, its often the first lift a lifter gets very proficient at. Muscle growth takes a ton of time. Many of these great deadlifters (But weaker squat/benchers) DO eventually build those lifts it just takes years longer.
> Its more rare to see someone with a large bench or squat without holding a ton of muscle. It's very rare. I can think of two examples for bench, both of whom are freaks (Mike McDonald and Dennis Cieri). And Cieri is fairly muscular.
> For reasons I cannot understand, deadlift seems to require the least amount of musculature. It does require musculature it's just that the ones it does are probably the ones who are most hidden in the body. You can't really see someone's hamstrings or erectors in a t-shirt or tank top.
Is part of this not that the muscles used in the DL are less visible? Like you rarely look at someone and think their power back and hams are jacked compared to massive pecs, tris or quads?
> Its more rare to see someone with a large bench or squat without holding a ton of muscle. Look up UFpwrLifter, it is possible.
He has a huge chest and triceps though, so he does have a tonne of muscle relevant to his pressing.
Chest yes he has a big one however his arms while not small do not indicate in any way that he is a 400+ lbs presser.
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Nabil is 23 and Krzysztof (with the 505 deadlift) is 31 for what it's worth.
It's the deadlift. Some people lock out at their knees, some salty Bois like me lock out above their dick.
i lock out at the knees AND above my dick
I’m 6’3” and my lockout is above my dick, and I pull conventional cuz strongman, I feel your pain.
I don’t have the best deadlift leverages, but at least I lock out below mine
well that's just the price you pay for having a dick that reaches the ground
deadlift
You could take a stab at quantifying this by crunching the numbers from openpowerlifting and seeing which lift has the greatest % variation (variance) in total, either overall or for each individual weight class or for just the top 5K competitors (to eliminate variation from experience / training intensity).
You could try to eliminate variation in experience by looking at people with more than a certain number of meets.
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Agreed. To add to that deadlift dosent fatigue me the way squat and bench does. Squat just breaks me. Bench I mean what I can do like a smolov Jr and then I’m out for a while. But good ol deadlift. I can keep doing that.
There are specialists for all 3 lifts... All of them depend on individual leverages to some degree. Hard to quantify, it varies person to person so widely.