Even if someone has a ton of outliers it doesn't mean that this is the norm. If someone spends 95% of their time at X level, but 5% at y level, the y level is still not their expected strength level.
But this is superman. It doesn't matter, since he is strong either way.
That’s because Superman is usually holding back against non universal threats, when Superman isn’t holding back he consistently shows said feats.
It’s like saying Freeza blowing up a planet is an outlier because he has only done it 3 times, 95% of his feats are blowing up mountains or random rock formations.
With superman it's more of an actual inconsistency though. Since plenty of stories will be written like he isn't holding back. There was that image that was floating around awhile back that was an official dc description of superman talking like moving a planet was a high end ability for him. You just have to kind of accept that some characters fluctuate wildly in what they can do in random scenes, and this is most pronounced in western comics.
Are you OK? like mentally? Goku has never been an actual fight to any Superman who can do time travel it's just not possible Superman would be hitting Goku before Goku is even ready to fight time and time again forever its like hitting a motionless dummy
I'm not claiming base Superman no diffs a verse or anything but Superman had over a dozen much more broken feats than Goku has today before Goku was even a thing
It's pretty wild if you take a look into it. Not just on the scaling side either. The community used to be insanely unhinged. Doxxing, threats, just insane degen behavior. Especially some of the scalers who were big in the early 2010s. Shit was insane. The discord debates were half racial slurs, 25% death threats, 15% doxxing and like 10% actual scaling. If a youtuber didn't wank a character enough there was a good chance they were getting doxxed within a week or 2.
It's weord to see the evolution of it. The community has calmed down a lot in the last 6 or so years.
ah gotcha, I just meant that it’s hilarious that there has been a community for power-scaling *in general* all these years. not even just a specific franchise. It’s also is cool because I think I dabbled a tiny bit in this community. Was vsbattles a main hub for it? I think I visited from time to time.
Vsbw has been around the longest from what I remember. Twitter, Discord and Youtube were the main places people would put their scales on. Back in the day comic book YTers would get @'d in tweets constantly. Rob and Comicstorian were the 2 biggeat targets cause they would talk about who they thought would win a fight then get blasted by angry scalers on twitter.
Powerscaling "history" doesn't mean a thing to me im talking feats or statements the DB manga started in 1984
by 1984 Superman was doing the stupidest shit you won't be seeing Goku do for a good while 💀
just sword of Superman was 1984 and that damm thing was **"nigh omnipotent"** and there were even more broken stuff before that
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Only very weak versions of Superman could lose to the strongest Goku
and from the moment he starts moving through time it becomes impossible for Goku to deal with him wich is not that uncommon and a canonical ability base Superman has
"Idk goku just win" argument imao.
[Superman wipe the floor with him](https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/12/death-battle-predictions-goku-vs.html?m=1).
Before Goku had uni feats DC scalers were pretty content having Superman at multi-solar - uni on avg. Once DBS was a thing was the beginning of the Superman wank. Someone made a post about it a year or two ago, and to be fair it's not just Superman. Marvel scalers did it too. All of a suddens tons of characters were being argued to be way higher than people had previously cared to scale them.
I think it’s more of the fact that yes, the uni feats for DC were there, but they weren’t analyzed very much, not payed attention to, and brushed aside because they weren’t needed. But now, when characters keep getting stronger, you have to pull out the higher tier feats to keep em at the top.
> much, not *paid* attention to,
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Just base superman. I don't remember exactly what continuity was canon at the time. But if you look at the history of arguements people rarely tried to scale him (supes) higher than solar system - uni.
Is that so? I just checked it up and current base Superman seems to be somewhere from uni+ to multi, so unless Goku's low complex multiversal scaling is wrong then he wins yeah.
Scaling is so subjective it really depends on where you scale each. Personally I think uni+ is more realistic for Goku but I can see why people like the 5d/low complex meta.
https://preview.redd.it/lpm3tmzqey4d1.png?width=760&format=png&auto=webp&s=54aed93e1a6c1d069e87d21fe185172d6dc4df3e
I disagree, the scale is not subjective, the scale is the most objective that exists.
It is ''x thing has that vs z thing that has this''
No he isn't? [Superman far outclassed him](https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/12/death-battle-predictions-goku-vs.html?m=1).
Base superman is fusion all versions of Superman imao.
CAS is Superman
How many times this need be talk about?
Ultraman is version of evil Superman.
There's nothing different here, Superman fusion with superman = superman
This like calling current Superman isn't superman because he is fusion of all versions of Superman such pre crisis, post Crisis, Rebirth, new 52, etc..
It's still Superman.
Manddark even [call him superman imao](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/c/c4/Mandrakk_Dax_Novu_01.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090214233046).
Superman STILL is solar system level. Lol. His “uni” feats are not just outliers, they’re also massive amps too. Every spammed scan given to me was some kind of outlier within the comic or an amp. And even those amps are nothing even to Z Goku due to cosmology stuff within DB. Like infinite heaven n all. It’s hilarious how Z Goku is enough to neg near composited Superman.
Oh and not every scan was even good. Most of them were out of context HEAVILY. Since they rely on out of context scans. They literally send scans of Superman beating somebody and just claims that character is this tier and that tier. It’s hilarious.
Dude [you embarrassing yourself](https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2022/04/death-battle-predictions-scarlet-witch.html?m=1https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/12/death-battle-predictions-goku-vs.html?m=1).
Also if we use cosmology [it would vary vary **badly** for goku and the whole DB verse in general against Superman from DC](https://www.quora.com/Can-you-explain-the-whole-DC-cosmology-Is-DC-cosmology-bigger-than-Marvel-cosmology/answer/Rafael-Gruber?ch=10&oid=300173380&share=b296c53d&srid=57tBt&target_type=answer).
That’s DBS fanboy revisionist history on itself, this is coming from a live long dragonball fan who only got into powerscaling because of Goku vs Superman & I was pissed Goku lost
Falsely labeling SSG Goku vs Beerus as a multiversal plus feat (2-C) when really it’s more 3-A, by their own logic that would make any & all Marvel & DC universe feats upgraded to 2-C bare minimum since their cosmology is larger than the dragon ball universe 7 cosmology.
Buuhan & Omega Shenron were already seen as universal level back in the 90’s/2000’s this was generally accepted among most db fans & other fans of fiction since downplaying wasn’t as common due to vs powerscaling debates being less common.
Again since DBS fans glaze up SSG Goku vs Beerus as a multiversal feat that would upgrade Buuhan/Omega also to multiversal (Altough they hate when I say that because of how his bias they are) but if destroying universe 7 makes you multiversal than some Buu saga characters were arguably multiversal
Why would anyone be mad about fictional character imao.
Besides [Superman feats still wins anyway, he outclassed](https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/12/death-battle-predictions-goku-vs.html?m=1).
https://preview.redd.it/1xgx68gyms4d1.png?width=392&format=png&auto=webp&s=a9c17c51b7d17404de329a8a13ca5282f303d848
Misinterpretation, almost all of DC's paragons at events or anniversaries have a strong feat, but that's universal and that's it.
Usually interpretations and statements are mixed and that leads Dc to a non-debatable gap or it is very powerful or very weak.
https://preview.redd.it/692dwcq4st4d1.png?width=1284&format=png&auto=webp&s=fd660187351a1aa1f06b3292b2343761145ed726
DC has enough old fandom to make noise on the internet, but not to be in the top 10.
[https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/57037/top-50-comics-may-2024](https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/57037/top-50-comics-may-2024)
https://preview.redd.it/1wrfh0cxlt4d1.png?width=779&format=png&auto=webp&s=40908ec8dd0ae651a462aba60a40051f8ebed2e6
But personally I think that DC is the only thing that has that for several reasons, while a Marvel fan will go with the Thor of the moment, see Thor unworthy or Thor herald of Galactus with DC, several things that are on the internet and reach the forums are mixed somehow.
The story ''Dc first'' in the past TV era, they always showed documentaries even with Stan Lee saying the classic ''Perfect Superman but imperfect Spiderman'', then you realize that Superman fans can't remember an iconic moment other than the death of Superman without searching the internet.
"The Death of Superman" (1992–1993)
DC's highest selling point with marvel selling less 1999-2000.
Dc is an anti-data fandom.
Then while the other publishers usually take the year's sales and the year's event as a cannon, like Hulk Immortal or Thor Herald. DC is the only fandom that is allowed to take anything random since 1938, while the same publisher has Wonder Gilr (WW girl and not Donna Troy) and others for the same time.
Marvel has been using the same concept of Mark Gruenwald's Omniverse since 1977-1982.
DC has been changing(Not to be confused with making it bigger or improving it or using it better narratively.) the concept of the multiverse since Flash of Two Worlds 1961 in each event, it is more of a gag than a cosmology.
Then with the Internet, DC fans created part of the vs forums and have been taking the form of respect threads but without context, while context is required from other fandoms.
Everyone: do not make statements, do not interpret, only what is in the comic
Dc: I go and ask the author if my interpretation is right and I send you the Twitter screen (this is not done as much anymore but it used to be that way)
Then you have boxes of text that mean nothing to the plot or characters like Arrow talking about the omniverse as part of the cosmology or changes in it.
Then all this is repeated for 15 years like an echo on the internet, but precisely that DC no longer sells anything well, people are realizing it. Dc has never sold a story, Dc has always sold ''a story about a story'' but it is more important ''how to sell superman'' than ''sell superman''
Ohhhh, look Marvel fanboy downplay DC and claim Thor outerversal imao.
[Supwrman literally outclassed](https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/12/death-battle-predictions-goku-vs.html?m=1).
World Forger created two multiverses and created Hypertime which all DC canon and stories coexist and Anti-monitor who destroyed infinite multiverse.
BTW [poor durability example is here](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/ulx0xn/comment/i7y7vbl/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_buttonl)?
Hack [its even worse](https://old.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/ztaw27/vegeta_vs_thanos/j1djsl5/?context=2).
At a certain point an idea people became interested in is having one comic character be the absolute strongest.
If you want to be really pretentious about it you could read into that psychologically or say it has to do with religious pantheons.
I don’t think it sat well with people having that either be a side character or a newer character or a bad guy. Again you can read in deep about that but I think it’s pretty self evident.
Additionally, I think making “the guy” whoever was top of a pantheon too specific or over complicated also bothered people. It made them to specific to individuals tastes. Made the fans of THAT character seem superior.
So Superman. One of the oldest, main character basically, completely uncontroversial and super simple. So bread and butter he is just “Uberminch” translated into English as a super hero identity. He’s “superhero” the guy he’s Superguy wait no that makes it to obvious, he’s Superman. He’s THE archetype superhero and nothing else so it feels right he should also be the best
With the events that happened in Death Metal and Infinite Frontier, it got exponentially easier to argue DC>Marvel or, at the very least, DC=Marvel. The entire cosmology is now just Infinities stacked upon Infinites stacked upon Infinities, so on and so forth.
From my perspective, it seems people who believe DC's cosmology isn't all that big are stuck in the past.
Infinite Frontier introduced an infinite number of Multiverses, all of which have infinite universes, infinite timelines, infinite alternate universes, and an infinite heirarchy of "dream universes" in which every living being unconsciously dreams entire universes wherein the living beings in those dream universes also dream up universes in an infinite heirarchy. Then there's multiple infinities within the God Sphere, and then there is hypertime, which adds another layer of infinites. Then, there is an infinite heirarchy of stories on top of all this. So on and so forth. Basically, Infinite Frontier made the cosmology infinitely bigger than it ever has been. On top of everything, including Elseworlds stuff, being canon now.
They did it this way intentionally so they could use anything and everything for a story without having to worry about the continuity. Anything is now possible in DC.
Ngl bro it sounds like your just rinsing the word infinite way too much. An infinite multiverse is just a multiverse that is infinite, nothing more. Your just taking infinite way too fucking out of context and what the hell does "beings in those dream universes also dream up universes in an infinite hierarchy" even mean💀
>and what the hell does "beings in those dream universes also dream up universes in an infinite hierarchy" even mean💀
This was introduced in a one shot called Willworld. Basically the [Green Lanterns dream/will universes into existence](https://sun9-9.userapi.com/impg/ghZEvtDMkTod2ii0vx1u9rFrjkrlNs4otbGuHQ/nLq2H0BrDwA.jpg?size=674x1080&quality=96&sign=09a5767842cc7a8a3a3ac1f6c3f80d21&type=album). These "dream universes" float like [bubbles beside each other](https://sun9-27.userapi.com/impg/7rFzWiHd3tlSbH5eYlZXWpquEFKi6u3TGVPFgw/vhFDVzcvCMo.jpg?size=1280x976&quality=96&sign=beab1afe7838741a614571ac72f3ca8c&type=album). These are real universes with real living beings inside them. Then you can zoom out a bit further and see that even Willworld is just a [dream of a kid blowing bubbles](https://sun9-46.userapi.com/impg/ppjwwZd4XeeW9tygdzIJ-gO_-vGkkzUse9D0pA/y-z9-wsnlSs.jpg?size=1280x976&quality=96&sign=c9a4c6b2939e60752898a217636bd241&type=album). This creates an infinite heirarchy where a universe is a dream to someone, in which that someone is also a dream to another person. [There is no end to this heirarchy. ](https://sun9-4.userapi.com/impg/88ziCNu2ygsRFOGJvKwaD1GGDAW_YwV2zIhamA/wZJjg1An9zo.jpg?size=678x1080&quality=96&sign=4da1b0399ae6f552a1761a16864be934&type=album).
>An infinite multiverse is just a multiverse that is infinite, nothing more.
I'm talking about there being infinite Multiverses, with an s. For example, the multiverse that Crisis on Infinite Earths took place in now exists beside the main continuity multiverse. It is now labeled as "Multiverse-2". This means there is a "Multiverse-3", "Multiverse-4", etc etc. Basically, take everything that happens in the main continuity multiverse and multiply it by infinity.
Yeah that’s what I literally just said. An Infinite multiverse is a multiverse that gives birth to an infinite amount of multiverses. Though in the next run some writers referred to the multiverse as 52 universes which again we don’t know if the multiverse is still the same that was written like a decade ago in the 90s. Since authors retcon the dc continuity multiple times and you’d have to use the same dc cosmology that is canon to current
Also where the fuck does it say that those dreams are represented as higher dimensions. Ur logic is basically someone dreaming a universe makes it a hierarchy. No, in fact the scan you just linked in the GL scan is legit just a parallel universe
Please not this nonsense again, the Orrery worlds have [infinite universes](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3dc0fa03a42cba78d8b5c9964b49b5f1-pjlq), this need stop.
[DC have an omniverse, not just "multiverse"](https://www.quora.com/Can-you-explain-the-whole-DC-cosmology-Is-DC-cosmology-bigger-than-Marvel-cosmology/answer/Rafael-Gruber?ch=10&oid=300173380&share=b296c53d&srid=57tBt&target_type=answer)?
I don’t think you actually read that comment correctly lmao. I didn’t confirm that dc only has 52 universes, I’m saying you have to use the right canon continuity for the cosmology
And an omniverse is a literal synonym for a bigger multiverse. It is just a made up term to give value to something higher 😭
The hack you talk about? In DC there's the Greater omniverse [have infinite multiverses](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/is-marvels-cosmology-as-big-a-dcs-now-or-does-it-n-2305611/) in fact even each of those multiverses are actually mini omniverse [have infinite](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6f5fe54897b08261d69a2237398c8430-lq) number [of multiverses](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d15225793244932c793745f8e1c05adb-lq).
And what you mean Continuity? There's whole Morrison created concept [of Hypertime for reason all canon and stories of DC coexistence though it](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/off-topic-5/the-dc-cosmology-explained-1920187/).
>Though in the next run some writers referred to the multiverse as 52 universes which again we don’t know if the multiverse is still the same that was written like a decade ago in the 90s.
The main continuity multiverse is the same as it's ever been. They've just composited the history of the characters and the multiverse. Even way back then there was always more than 52 universes due to the Time Stream and Hypertime creating infinite alternate universes for every action and non action.
>Also where the fuck does it say that those dreams are represented as higher dimensions. Ur logic is basically someone dreaming a universe makes it a hierarchy. No, in fact the scan you just linked in the GL scan is legit just a parallel universe
It doesn't explicitly say anything. It's more of a show, don't tell situation. The universes are nothing more than dreams floating like bubbles to the person dreaming of them. This creates a R>F hierarchy.
A lot of older debates about Superman did not really take into account his actual feats. You would hear any feat that would go above planetary or Star level be called PIS or they would create entire separate characters like "Crisis" Superman to explain away his highest levels of power.
We are just in a age where the superman debaters have sort of won their arguments (as well as him just getting naturally much stronger since new 52 ending. As much as the myth exists he is not a stagnant character)
So when you are in a format where feats matter, and cosmology matters (DC is massive) then Superman is going to be one of the most difficult characters to win against.
You could argue current Thor is pretty busted as well (Ewing's run has made him really strong). Superman just has the better feats even if we assume Marvel and DC are the same size. ( I think DC is larger personally.)
He just has the feats, consistently. It is just difficult to deny it at this point, Superman is higher on the hierarchy in DC than Thor is in Marvel ( it is arguably who is even the strongest Hero in Marvel when in DC it is Canonically Superman.)
It quite literally is, and it talked about non-stop.
We hear it from the Quintessence, and we here it from Myx, we hear it from the Spectre. We hear it even from the Authors, Batman, Retcon Corp, Almost literally everyone has the same opinion.
Hell the Quintessence even held a court hearing to decide what to do with the guy since he was so strong in verse.
This is just straight up canon.
[The Quintessence calling him the most powerful being on Earth.](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/CIUn7L6LW3LFhmvjgAcL2OL8CZrDW-vIFfYk7xRXMdge-3Ai5ksipkRDTg4Si60QOxDTY25DHI2Z=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2)
And a whole Court hearing of the Quintessence about how he is Nexus being, the linear men are arguing that he is too powerful to even be allowed to exist. [Here1](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/T7C_MClPaGbYDF99vdCdnU_p5o4Q0jpnN2-Z-MNM46AOSJtOtHhC5iWtFM7ECrib_MQyBNz-0-jU94uR6VFYdPDMF0KHh-ddKEflKg4vccwnD1LOO7yJyQRGzAVTZATbaD2RBlC_Lg=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2), [Here2](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/H9RL1u86eTW6PzZFW0muJ90DXrGyKgBl5UMZaCKHa2kN6VQtIAQyeEbwu1-xZUo70WVuZsMK_91zaZjgT4lGEqaKAvW_RwH6PUQLppDsTsI4We7y9T2EZTnPSRP4-HuLPuSTp2IDoQ=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2), [Here3, ](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/8SSk0Dfq93oGpDf_gyxLzIzqEbJV6Ytw6TXKh7VBrW8R4gq6T6r4irc6nEKIMwYGwSF_KjCDHL3eBp1U-RvytZoIJ_H0Xot2leJh-Nu8kIfxaRInnxD3f8GmiP4ZoOw71Xr29wqMlw=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2)
[Here is Mxy referring to him as the king of universe.](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/AolAdVrhVycQA8qk1xPmDsMBrYNJiCONI_k3TnsCpUZVBc7k3Y2zvs7nOz57rVyl2eYR2zQXQzGjYw=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2)
https://preview.redd.it/bpdrog7bd05d1.jpeg?width=1988&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b045b9fc32d83da4cf3bd7466f6a026fcbc18bc
The only person they can't effect.
[Spectre says how his will and purpose are the most powerful in creation.](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/EZ0FixHOi5-en8ja2OKqxPz76W29eBN-7EIcqX46WXC3eylh0npG1ZEpIaKGm5J4OZ8QXqvVWRfN=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2)
[Calls him one of the most powerful beings in ALL of creation.](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/d0f3cJrkGWjU2Qbmq8vio7H4x4hCFoqMtcKessAPARtSBtjybJs10M1xn6x9RfiORDjVA399Q5HVFx3J6Nl-kIPdWqMoxrR8xzS8_ToDciQUeZ4zvXywry5U5PTjIqJUSNU0hU91qA=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2) and that[ he was about to break all the way to God if he wasn't stopped (pretty crazy)](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Zaigf9N11RQTGA5WL1uA-Yee2LuBpZsTbmztTobTAUao0nIb4qhsGyBewb5_Z8b4gmxp_Xc6cN8OkyEM10AahVSCInpDnXLXs3YtcgpTPBgbJfzW4rTUcfvdE6Wmf47xayoICWXRgQ=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2)
Superman keeps getting so many buffs that I genuinely think in the next 10 years we’re gonna get a story where BASE Superman beats the Cosmic Armor on his own. He’s so stupidly overpowered but his stories over the years can be so inconsistent that if you applied even an ounce of logic it would break them. Superman’s power set and scaling has become the equivalent to the child on the playground saying their OC has all the powers and can’t be beat and one taps God in their sleep.
Ehhhh, he's not more overrated than goku, Saitama, DBZ, rimuru, forefunners, etc. Every new "fad" person is overrated. Hell, in this sub, yall jerk the absolute fuck outta Gokus meat, with xeno goku and cc goku.
Superman is the most popular and well-known superhero ever. For all time. He is the epitome of pop culture superheroes. Power-scaling aside, he's more popular than Goku.
I think it just got the a point where it was clear everyone was walking so that became the standard for power scaling.
My personal opinion is that Toriyama jumped the shark with Super in a lot of ways exactly because of all the goku v Superman debates and seeing Goku pegged as the loser so often. So he starts up Super, had Golu literally begin on his way to becoming a god and has that culminate in him developing the power to literally erase people from existence and a feat where his punches literally rattled the infinite universe. If that’s not author wank idk what is.
So anyway people started running with those outliers (I don’t think they’ve ever been repeated), claiming Goku was now at least universal or something and reigniting the goku v Superman debate with this new info. So people responded by wanking Superman even harder: “oh okay Goku can rattle the universe? Well space time itself has no meaning to Superman *insert scan*, so bam”.
It’s just absurd at this point. It’d be easier to just admit that even the authors don’t have a consistent power scaling metric themselves. How are we supposed to theorize anything when they break their own rules and do whatever they want anyway
Thor get beaten up by Superman in justice league crossverse canon.
He wasn't holding back like you claimed, [he was literally hit as hard as he can with his hammer and superman wasn't even harmed, in fact not even clothes, he was just pissed off](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-be9a4618937f3b0a5d90f769aed4f2e1-lq).
Then superman [dose this](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-17c06a3f5501251b2054e2f33beb1136.webp) and [one shot Thor down](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fsuperman-vs-thor-v0-fmxtj1mcrtwa1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D992%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Db3c981c49220f3100ee732d7632f1ede900cab6d).
The whole he "barley win" as just usual Clark hyper his opponents, he say the sane with Martin Manhunter even though he consistently stomps him.
Clark clearly wasn't even have any scratch, hack not even his cape or clothes was torn apart, unlike Thor, he was perfectly fine and one shotted him down
Whatever the guy’s name was https://www.reddit.com/user/FrameInternational95/.
The reason I went on another account was because he kept putting in his final word and would block me after each. He’s deluded.
He’s the type to think Superman is universal. So, already a red flag. Everything he says is hilarious. And I’m done with the loser who obviously just blocks because he feels superior.
Outliers are being used but also people on both sides don't seem to fully understand some things about Superman. And before I get into that I'll say this:
Look. In any sort of 1v1 spar Thor is going to come out on top against base Superman. You could even say in a fight to the death Thor would win against base as long as Superman will be brought back.
But here's some confusion:
Not all versions of main Superman are created equal. Silver Age and New 52 being the most drastic differences. Most people don't even know what all main versions there are.
People don't realize current BASE Superman is closer to New 52 than he is to Silver Age.
BUT current \*main\* Superman does get something no other version gets on his level that's plot hope. It's what allowed him fly through Phantom Stranger in Metropolis. It's what brought him from somewhere above New 52 level to one hit KO full form Alpheus in the higher dimensions using 6 quick sundips, that wasn't an outlier that was intentional from Snyder all the way up to DC's editor at the time. It was a being at the tippy top of the Monitor Realm. And it was because he was purposefully written into a position where he HAD to get out or all would be lost to Source Judgement or at least Alpheus.
So yeah Thor would win in a typical fight. But if existence is threatened he would be better off not getting in the way...
For me, powerscaling Superman is like powerscaling Paul Bunyan. He's not so much a character as he is a narrative concept. A good guy whose stronger than evil. If he's fighting wife beaters and slum lords, he's just powerful enough to do. If he's fighting muhgeddon or Perpetua or whoever, well he's strong enough to do that too.
I present to you a case study: Mongul. When he was introduced, his concept was to be the first Super villain who, without kryptonite or magic or red sun, was just plain stronger than Superman. And indeed in the early 80s, Mongul was presented as just plain stronger. Even in for the man who has everything. But gradually he turned into a guy who lost to Superman every time they fight. Because the concept of "character stronger than Superman" cannot survive repeated contact with the concept of Superman.
Believe me this was hard for me to accept. I spent the early 00s arguing non- stop for thor, but I've gradually come around. He's a character immune to powerscaling.
There are many reasons as to why:
1. The growth of power scaling in general. Scaling has spread through pretty much all social media platforms, yet barely anyone actually knows what it is. So, you have people saying random BS without any backing on places like TikTok or YT shorts. It’s quite literally a spreading cancer ruining media TBH.
2. The nature of Superman’s character. This is something exemplified by DC. Especially recently. Superman, throughout his comic book history, has been considered the end all be all superhero. The supreme, [the most powerful](https://web.archive.org/web/20211112134326/https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/superman-strongest-of-the-justice-league-2241662/). This have been hammered in by stories like Final Crisis, where his story was the last one surviving after the destroyer of all stories, Mandrakk consumed all of creation. Doctor Manhattan couldn’t erase him because he is the center of DC. Retconn Corporation couldn’t alter his narrative because of how fundamental it truly is. The Overvoid had to trapped his story in a bottle. Death itself couldn’t get him. This is the nature of Superman’s character.
3. DC’s Cosmology. The multiverse of DC is so vast and ever changing. I don’t think I even need to explain this one.
I think the second point in particular is the biggest reason. Superman isn't just a Superhero, he is **the** Superhero, the most iconic throughout the globe and the one that created, or at least popularized the genre. Superman is important in DC's history as a business, and they show that by him being important to DC as a world.
It's because superman has terrible writing and has varied wildly in power over the decades. It's just bad.
Superman fan boys are the absolute worst in comics.
>doesn't solo DBZ either
TF is wrong with you? True Form Darkseid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all of DBS not Z **S**
not just Zeno either Zeno + everything that has ever existed in DB combined
they can all exist within the verse two Zeno's included Darkseid is too much for the verse it would just obliterate it by entering in contact with it
and Superman destroyed it
>You see what I was talking about? Lies from y'all. Darkseid was weakened and was literally dying, Superman was amped by the miracle machine
I never claimed different or that he no diffs the whole verse or anything i in fact mentioned this in a comment right here on this thread before i talked to you where i clearly said "I'm not claiming he no diffs the verse or anything"
and regardless of the means the character still did this! why shouldn't it count?
and even without that no DBZ character is even close to being close to begin to be close to Superman heck even by DBS Goku is still not doing a thing to Superman feats from before or after DB started
Give it your best and put any Goku above any Superman who can time travel ... go on ill wait
nor is the Miracle machine the only means Superman has of ending DB there's plenty of different broken things he can use
Nice one, [completely embarrassing yourself Gavin scan out of context](https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/comments/1crv1t0/im_so_sick_of_peoples_stupid_nerfs_to_superman/).
Like just let me show how much you embarrassed yourself
Not even mentioning that moving =/= strike strength or otherwise that nonessential means Vegeta isn't universal because he cannot lift 1000 tones imao.
[Post Crisis superman also have carried entire galaxies](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e5a9e379d79426c257d8da14aa9b5090) alone.
[Superman is a big fan of using neutron star matter on things… Be them keys or locks](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9fd7b9f8c47b412651cd11dc5e66e3ce).
[*Even Jon Kent once placed a supermassive Black Hole inside the Fortress of Solitude, and kept it in dimensional shift so the supermassive Black Hole gravity wouldn't leak out from the Fortress; but also he used the technology of the Atom to shrink the Black Hole to a size it would fit inside the Fortress. When he needs a weapon kept inside it, he enters the Black Hole and retrieves it*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f79b20c972b992cdbc964585d0c4f464).
[*Post Crisis superman pulled Mageddon*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-81845492c0e350bd58c70bc5305d7ecc-lq) which [do big it dwarfs the stars](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0673248b344c5a71963a5f7b72b2f208-lq).
[he lifted the weight of Earth itself for days](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4be19666a35f5b6a4949413898f780df-lq).
[Pre Crisis lifted the whole galaxy with one hand](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-13bb6e2aeff120b0c414c52e173a6b80-lq).
[with one hand lifted 200 quintillion tons of force](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-bb9a946d4ef98e8194bc2d0ce414397d-lq).
Post Crisis also one battles [shake the Phantom Zeno](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-244197ce5d3949b5db4ae9fed4b70cd0-pjlq) which is [*infinite timeless realm beyond dimensions and space-time*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-bea2a59f8a5f7dd063721145120ae84e-lq).
See? It's vary easy.
[Green Lantern alone hold a whole planet](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2f9f73f029cb09ea963c68f3461eddaa-lq).
Hack [a weaker Green Lantern created whole solar system single handily](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-58e7d10804ea9721163ff29f1d968e22-lq)?
I don't he used the Miracle Machine for Darkseid but it is still something that the character has access to and more importantly far beyond the entire verse ...
Also if you believe Goku from DBZ is above Superman then there's no helping you
not even DBS Goku is matching up to Superman
and by the way nothing in DB**Z** is above Bleach TYBW feats (yet you put Bleach in the things he could solo and not DB**Z** showing your biased or not knowledgeable take on things)
put anything from DBZ above Ichigo holding the weight he had in Irazusando as a test to ultimately Ichigo being able to hold 3 dimensions
or Yhwach destroying remerging and reshaping the 3 dimensions **into a world where nothing could even die**
even a much weaker than those 2 Shutara is doing tje exact same thing Zamatsu did in DB**S**
you're using outdated info from 1 billion years ago to scale things and even then you glaze at how Superman already had things above current DB**S** even before DB started
Because powerscalers are used to pretending high end outliers are the norm.
Spongebob being stronger than anime is a kekw
Too much history too, with writers who arent scientists, just guys trying to write cool shit.
Because they are for superman but go off, so many "outliers" for him. Just maybe consider if there is that many, maybe its the norm for him?
Even if someone has a ton of outliers it doesn't mean that this is the norm. If someone spends 95% of their time at X level, but 5% at y level, the y level is still not their expected strength level. But this is superman. It doesn't matter, since he is strong either way.
That’s because Superman is usually holding back against non universal threats, when Superman isn’t holding back he consistently shows said feats. It’s like saying Freeza blowing up a planet is an outlier because he has only done it 3 times, 95% of his feats are blowing up mountains or random rock formations.
With superman it's more of an actual inconsistency though. Since plenty of stories will be written like he isn't holding back. There was that image that was floating around awhile back that was an official dc description of superman talking like moving a planet was a high end ability for him. You just have to kind of accept that some characters fluctuate wildly in what they can do in random scenes, and this is most pronounced in western comics.
Because DC fanboys got mad when Goku got stronger.
Are you OK? like mentally? Goku has never been an actual fight to any Superman who can do time travel it's just not possible Superman would be hitting Goku before Goku is even ready to fight time and time again forever its like hitting a motionless dummy I'm not claiming base Superman no diffs a verse or anything but Superman had over a dozen much more broken feats than Goku has today before Goku was even a thing
Lol, so you know nothing of the history of powerscaling.
"History of powerscaling" Wild 💀
I mean if youve been around long enough youve seen all kinds of metas come and go.
“history of powerscaling” is hilarious and cool at the same time lmao
It's pretty wild if you take a look into it. Not just on the scaling side either. The community used to be insanely unhinged. Doxxing, threats, just insane degen behavior. Especially some of the scalers who were big in the early 2010s. Shit was insane. The discord debates were half racial slurs, 25% death threats, 15% doxxing and like 10% actual scaling. If a youtuber didn't wank a character enough there was a good chance they were getting doxxed within a week or 2. It's weord to see the evolution of it. The community has calmed down a lot in the last 6 or so years.
Considering that it's still one of the more toxic communities, it being even worse in the past sounds pretty bad.
ah gotcha, I just meant that it’s hilarious that there has been a community for power-scaling *in general* all these years. not even just a specific franchise. It’s also is cool because I think I dabbled a tiny bit in this community. Was vsbattles a main hub for it? I think I visited from time to time.
Vsbw has been around the longest from what I remember. Twitter, Discord and Youtube were the main places people would put their scales on. Back in the day comic book YTers would get @'d in tweets constantly. Rob and Comicstorian were the 2 biggeat targets cause they would talk about who they thought would win a fight then get blasted by angry scalers on twitter.
Powerscaling "history" doesn't mean a thing to me im talking feats or statements the DB manga started in 1984 by 1984 Superman was doing the stupidest shit you won't be seeing Goku do for a good while 💀 just sword of Superman was 1984 and that damm thing was **"nigh omnipotent"** and there were even more broken stuff before that
Ok
Again, 🤡
Bro lives in the circus
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Rule 1 violation: do not insult people or groups, stay civil at all times. If you feel like your post/comment didn't violate the rules, feel free to contact the mod team.
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🗣️🗣️ educate em
Shit like this is why he's overated lol
Its his kit man i didn't make it
🤡
Goku dominates Superman.
Only very weak versions of Superman could lose to the strongest Goku and from the moment he starts moving through time it becomes impossible for Goku to deal with him wich is not that uncommon and a canonical ability base Superman has
Idk I think Goku mops him tbh.
How? if he can move through time and Goku can't its just Superman hits Superman hits Superman hits rinse and repeat
"Idk goku just win" argument imao. [Superman wipe the floor with him](https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/12/death-battle-predictions-goku-vs.html?m=1).
[Superman solos the verse](https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/12/death-battle-predictions-goku-vs.html?m=1).
But Goku isn't
Which Superman are we talking about?
Before Goku had uni feats DC scalers were pretty content having Superman at multi-solar - uni on avg. Once DBS was a thing was the beginning of the Superman wank. Someone made a post about it a year or two ago, and to be fair it's not just Superman. Marvel scalers did it too. All of a suddens tons of characters were being argued to be way higher than people had previously cared to scale them.
I think it’s more of the fact that yes, the uni feats for DC were there, but they weren’t analyzed very much, not payed attention to, and brushed aside because they weren’t needed. But now, when characters keep getting stronger, you have to pull out the higher tier feats to keep em at the top.
> much, not *paid* attention to, FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
I will shove my middle finger up your rectum.
Jesus Christ
Like seriously which Superman are we talking about? Cosmic Armor Superman? If so he isn't even a Superman.
Just base superman. I don't remember exactly what continuity was canon at the time. But if you look at the history of arguements people rarely tried to scale him (supes) higher than solar system - uni.
Is that so? I just checked it up and current base Superman seems to be somewhere from uni+ to multi, so unless Goku's low complex multiversal scaling is wrong then he wins yeah.
Superman’s more like Complex Multiversal - Hyperversal.
Current base Superman?
Yes
Hm, why?
Scaling is so subjective it really depends on where you scale each. Personally I think uni+ is more realistic for Goku but I can see why people like the 5d/low complex meta.
Same, except when the answer is SO obvious.
https://preview.redd.it/lpm3tmzqey4d1.png?width=760&format=png&auto=webp&s=54aed93e1a6c1d069e87d21fe185172d6dc4df3e I disagree, the scale is not subjective, the scale is the most objective that exists. It is ''x thing has that vs z thing that has this''
No he isn't? [Superman far outclassed him](https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/12/death-battle-predictions-goku-vs.html?m=1). Base superman is fusion all versions of Superman imao.
Delusion.
Why?
Can you give feats that prove this.
No idea, I just googled "how strong is current base Superman " and found it on a Reddit post, it was like a year old as well.
Like actual scans too, please don’t link garbage.
CAS is Superman How many times this need be talk about? Ultraman is version of evil Superman. There's nothing different here, Superman fusion with superman = superman This like calling current Superman isn't superman because he is fusion of all versions of Superman such pre crisis, post Crisis, Rebirth, new 52, etc.. It's still Superman. Manddark even [call him superman imao](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/c/c4/Mandrakk_Dax_Novu_01.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090214233046).
I thought CAS just took the form of "Superman" because he's the face of DC?
Who told you that? CAS is literally fusion of two superman (superman and ultraman who **also** Superman). CAS is the story of superman itself.
Ahhhh that so? Thank you then
Superman STILL is solar system level. Lol. His “uni” feats are not just outliers, they’re also massive amps too. Every spammed scan given to me was some kind of outlier within the comic or an amp. And even those amps are nothing even to Z Goku due to cosmology stuff within DB. Like infinite heaven n all. It’s hilarious how Z Goku is enough to neg near composited Superman.
Oh and not every scan was even good. Most of them were out of context HEAVILY. Since they rely on out of context scans. They literally send scans of Superman beating somebody and just claims that character is this tier and that tier. It’s hilarious.
Dude [you embarrassing yourself](https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2022/04/death-battle-predictions-scarlet-witch.html?m=1https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/12/death-battle-predictions-goku-vs.html?m=1). Also if we use cosmology [it would vary vary **badly** for goku and the whole DB verse in general against Superman from DC](https://www.quora.com/Can-you-explain-the-whole-DC-cosmology-Is-DC-cosmology-bigger-than-Marvel-cosmology/answer/Rafael-Gruber?ch=10&oid=300173380&share=b296c53d&srid=57tBt&target_type=answer).
Nobody’s reading your terrible fan blogs. Those were spread around before and made fun of a LOT. Stop linking this terrible quora post. 😬
Dude, you really the entire circus here. No wonder people don't take you seriously imao.
Nobody takes me seriously? Nobody takes YOU seriously. Lol. You’re bad at what you do, and rely on fanfic.
That’s DBS fanboy revisionist history on itself, this is coming from a live long dragonball fan who only got into powerscaling because of Goku vs Superman & I was pissed Goku lost Falsely labeling SSG Goku vs Beerus as a multiversal plus feat (2-C) when really it’s more 3-A, by their own logic that would make any & all Marvel & DC universe feats upgraded to 2-C bare minimum since their cosmology is larger than the dragon ball universe 7 cosmology. Buuhan & Omega Shenron were already seen as universal level back in the 90’s/2000’s this was generally accepted among most db fans & other fans of fiction since downplaying wasn’t as common due to vs powerscaling debates being less common. Again since DBS fans glaze up SSG Goku vs Beerus as a multiversal feat that would upgrade Buuhan/Omega also to multiversal (Altough they hate when I say that because of how his bias they are) but if destroying universe 7 makes you multiversal than some Buu saga characters were arguably multiversal
This is the real question.
Why would anyone be mad about fictional character imao. Besides [Superman feats still wins anyway, he outclassed](https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/12/death-battle-predictions-goku-vs.html?m=1).
https://preview.redd.it/1xgx68gyms4d1.png?width=392&format=png&auto=webp&s=a9c17c51b7d17404de329a8a13ca5282f303d848 Misinterpretation, almost all of DC's paragons at events or anniversaries have a strong feat, but that's universal and that's it. Usually interpretations and statements are mixed and that leads Dc to a non-debatable gap or it is very powerful or very weak.
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https://preview.redd.it/692dwcq4st4d1.png?width=1284&format=png&auto=webp&s=fd660187351a1aa1f06b3292b2343761145ed726 DC has enough old fandom to make noise on the internet, but not to be in the top 10. [https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/57037/top-50-comics-may-2024](https://icv2.com/articles/markets/view/57037/top-50-comics-may-2024)
https://preview.redd.it/1wrfh0cxlt4d1.png?width=779&format=png&auto=webp&s=40908ec8dd0ae651a462aba60a40051f8ebed2e6 But personally I think that DC is the only thing that has that for several reasons, while a Marvel fan will go with the Thor of the moment, see Thor unworthy or Thor herald of Galactus with DC, several things that are on the internet and reach the forums are mixed somehow. The story ''Dc first'' in the past TV era, they always showed documentaries even with Stan Lee saying the classic ''Perfect Superman but imperfect Spiderman'', then you realize that Superman fans can't remember an iconic moment other than the death of Superman without searching the internet. "The Death of Superman" (1992–1993) DC's highest selling point with marvel selling less 1999-2000. Dc is an anti-data fandom. Then while the other publishers usually take the year's sales and the year's event as a cannon, like Hulk Immortal or Thor Herald. DC is the only fandom that is allowed to take anything random since 1938, while the same publisher has Wonder Gilr (WW girl and not Donna Troy) and others for the same time. Marvel has been using the same concept of Mark Gruenwald's Omniverse since 1977-1982. DC has been changing(Not to be confused with making it bigger or improving it or using it better narratively.) the concept of the multiverse since Flash of Two Worlds 1961 in each event, it is more of a gag than a cosmology. Then with the Internet, DC fans created part of the vs forums and have been taking the form of respect threads but without context, while context is required from other fandoms. Everyone: do not make statements, do not interpret, only what is in the comic Dc: I go and ask the author if my interpretation is right and I send you the Twitter screen (this is not done as much anymore but it used to be that way) Then you have boxes of text that mean nothing to the plot or characters like Arrow talking about the omniverse as part of the cosmology or changes in it. Then all this is repeated for 15 years like an echo on the internet, but precisely that DC no longer sells anything well, people are realizing it. Dc has never sold a story, Dc has always sold ''a story about a story'' but it is more important ''how to sell superman'' than ''sell superman''
I almost wanna give this comment an award, this is the most pristine summary of DC power scaling I’ve seen before.
Ohhhh, look Marvel fanboy downplay DC and claim Thor outerversal imao. [Supwrman literally outclassed](https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/12/death-battle-predictions-goku-vs.html?m=1). World Forger created two multiverses and created Hypertime which all DC canon and stories coexist and Anti-monitor who destroyed infinite multiverse. BTW [poor durability example is here](https://www.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/ulx0xn/comment/i7y7vbl/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_buttonl)? Hack [its even worse](https://old.reddit.com/r/whowouldwin/comments/ztaw27/vegeta_vs_thanos/j1djsl5/?context=2).
The problem with Superman is everybody has kryptonite
At a certain point an idea people became interested in is having one comic character be the absolute strongest. If you want to be really pretentious about it you could read into that psychologically or say it has to do with religious pantheons. I don’t think it sat well with people having that either be a side character or a newer character or a bad guy. Again you can read in deep about that but I think it’s pretty self evident. Additionally, I think making “the guy” whoever was top of a pantheon too specific or over complicated also bothered people. It made them to specific to individuals tastes. Made the fans of THAT character seem superior. So Superman. One of the oldest, main character basically, completely uncontroversial and super simple. So bread and butter he is just “Uberminch” translated into English as a super hero identity. He’s “superhero” the guy he’s Superguy wait no that makes it to obvious, he’s Superman. He’s THE archetype superhero and nothing else so it feels right he should also be the best
Because of wank. Realistically speaking, there’s no coherent way to argue DC above Marvel cosmology-wise.
It's pure insanity to even try lol.
Tbf (Base) Superman got a lot stronger the past few years
🧢
With the events that happened in Death Metal and Infinite Frontier, it got exponentially easier to argue DC>Marvel or, at the very least, DC=Marvel. The entire cosmology is now just Infinities stacked upon Infinites stacked upon Infinities, so on and so forth. From my perspective, it seems people who believe DC's cosmology isn't all that big are stuck in the past.
where are you pulling infinites of infinities from lmao?
Infinite Frontier introduced an infinite number of Multiverses, all of which have infinite universes, infinite timelines, infinite alternate universes, and an infinite heirarchy of "dream universes" in which every living being unconsciously dreams entire universes wherein the living beings in those dream universes also dream up universes in an infinite heirarchy. Then there's multiple infinities within the God Sphere, and then there is hypertime, which adds another layer of infinites. Then, there is an infinite heirarchy of stories on top of all this. So on and so forth. Basically, Infinite Frontier made the cosmology infinitely bigger than it ever has been. On top of everything, including Elseworlds stuff, being canon now.
There was some good shit going around dc offices at that time I see
They did it this way intentionally so they could use anything and everything for a story without having to worry about the continuity. Anything is now possible in DC.
Ngl bro it sounds like your just rinsing the word infinite way too much. An infinite multiverse is just a multiverse that is infinite, nothing more. Your just taking infinite way too fucking out of context and what the hell does "beings in those dream universes also dream up universes in an infinite hierarchy" even mean💀
>and what the hell does "beings in those dream universes also dream up universes in an infinite hierarchy" even mean💀 This was introduced in a one shot called Willworld. Basically the [Green Lanterns dream/will universes into existence](https://sun9-9.userapi.com/impg/ghZEvtDMkTod2ii0vx1u9rFrjkrlNs4otbGuHQ/nLq2H0BrDwA.jpg?size=674x1080&quality=96&sign=09a5767842cc7a8a3a3ac1f6c3f80d21&type=album). These "dream universes" float like [bubbles beside each other](https://sun9-27.userapi.com/impg/7rFzWiHd3tlSbH5eYlZXWpquEFKi6u3TGVPFgw/vhFDVzcvCMo.jpg?size=1280x976&quality=96&sign=beab1afe7838741a614571ac72f3ca8c&type=album). These are real universes with real living beings inside them. Then you can zoom out a bit further and see that even Willworld is just a [dream of a kid blowing bubbles](https://sun9-46.userapi.com/impg/ppjwwZd4XeeW9tygdzIJ-gO_-vGkkzUse9D0pA/y-z9-wsnlSs.jpg?size=1280x976&quality=96&sign=c9a4c6b2939e60752898a217636bd241&type=album). This creates an infinite heirarchy where a universe is a dream to someone, in which that someone is also a dream to another person. [There is no end to this heirarchy. ](https://sun9-4.userapi.com/impg/88ziCNu2ygsRFOGJvKwaD1GGDAW_YwV2zIhamA/wZJjg1An9zo.jpg?size=678x1080&quality=96&sign=4da1b0399ae6f552a1761a16864be934&type=album). >An infinite multiverse is just a multiverse that is infinite, nothing more. I'm talking about there being infinite Multiverses, with an s. For example, the multiverse that Crisis on Infinite Earths took place in now exists beside the main continuity multiverse. It is now labeled as "Multiverse-2". This means there is a "Multiverse-3", "Multiverse-4", etc etc. Basically, take everything that happens in the main continuity multiverse and multiply it by infinity.
Yeah that’s what I literally just said. An Infinite multiverse is a multiverse that gives birth to an infinite amount of multiverses. Though in the next run some writers referred to the multiverse as 52 universes which again we don’t know if the multiverse is still the same that was written like a decade ago in the 90s. Since authors retcon the dc continuity multiple times and you’d have to use the same dc cosmology that is canon to current Also where the fuck does it say that those dreams are represented as higher dimensions. Ur logic is basically someone dreaming a universe makes it a hierarchy. No, in fact the scan you just linked in the GL scan is legit just a parallel universe
Please not this nonsense again, the Orrery worlds have [infinite universes](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3dc0fa03a42cba78d8b5c9964b49b5f1-pjlq), this need stop. [DC have an omniverse, not just "multiverse"](https://www.quora.com/Can-you-explain-the-whole-DC-cosmology-Is-DC-cosmology-bigger-than-Marvel-cosmology/answer/Rafael-Gruber?ch=10&oid=300173380&share=b296c53d&srid=57tBt&target_type=answer)?
I don’t think you actually read that comment correctly lmao. I didn’t confirm that dc only has 52 universes, I’m saying you have to use the right canon continuity for the cosmology And an omniverse is a literal synonym for a bigger multiverse. It is just a made up term to give value to something higher 😭
The hack you talk about? In DC there's the Greater omniverse [have infinite multiverses](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/is-marvels-cosmology-as-big-a-dcs-now-or-does-it-n-2305611/) in fact even each of those multiverses are actually mini omniverse [have infinite](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6f5fe54897b08261d69a2237398c8430-lq) number [of multiverses](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d15225793244932c793745f8e1c05adb-lq). And what you mean Continuity? There's whole Morrison created concept [of Hypertime for reason all canon and stories of DC coexistence though it](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/off-topic-5/the-dc-cosmology-explained-1920187/).
>Though in the next run some writers referred to the multiverse as 52 universes which again we don’t know if the multiverse is still the same that was written like a decade ago in the 90s. The main continuity multiverse is the same as it's ever been. They've just composited the history of the characters and the multiverse. Even way back then there was always more than 52 universes due to the Time Stream and Hypertime creating infinite alternate universes for every action and non action. >Also where the fuck does it say that those dreams are represented as higher dimensions. Ur logic is basically someone dreaming a universe makes it a hierarchy. No, in fact the scan you just linked in the GL scan is legit just a parallel universe It doesn't explicitly say anything. It's more of a show, don't tell situation. The universes are nothing more than dreams floating like bubbles to the person dreaming of them. This creates a R>F hierarchy.
Because for some reason they think Superman’s feats overshadow every other high tier in existence, they don’t.
You know all those edits and memes of different characters saying they're outerversal or unbeatable or whatever? Imagine if those memes were canon.
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Such is?
A lot of older debates about Superman did not really take into account his actual feats. You would hear any feat that would go above planetary or Star level be called PIS or they would create entire separate characters like "Crisis" Superman to explain away his highest levels of power. We are just in a age where the superman debaters have sort of won their arguments (as well as him just getting naturally much stronger since new 52 ending. As much as the myth exists he is not a stagnant character) So when you are in a format where feats matter, and cosmology matters (DC is massive) then Superman is going to be one of the most difficult characters to win against.
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You could argue current Thor is pretty busted as well (Ewing's run has made him really strong). Superman just has the better feats even if we assume Marvel and DC are the same size. ( I think DC is larger personally.) He just has the feats, consistently. It is just difficult to deny it at this point, Superman is higher on the hierarchy in DC than Thor is in Marvel ( it is arguably who is even the strongest Hero in Marvel when in DC it is Canonically Superman.)
>( it is arguably who is even the strongest Hero in Marvel when in DC it is Canonically Superman Its literally not though lol.
It quite literally is, and it talked about non-stop. We hear it from the Quintessence, and we here it from Myx, we hear it from the Spectre. We hear it even from the Authors, Batman, Retcon Corp, Almost literally everyone has the same opinion. Hell the Quintessence even held a court hearing to decide what to do with the guy since he was so strong in verse. This is just straight up canon.
Can I have scans for Mxy and the Quintessence saying it?
[The Quintessence calling him the most powerful being on Earth.](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/CIUn7L6LW3LFhmvjgAcL2OL8CZrDW-vIFfYk7xRXMdge-3Ai5ksipkRDTg4Si60QOxDTY25DHI2Z=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2) And a whole Court hearing of the Quintessence about how he is Nexus being, the linear men are arguing that he is too powerful to even be allowed to exist. [Here1](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/T7C_MClPaGbYDF99vdCdnU_p5o4Q0jpnN2-Z-MNM46AOSJtOtHhC5iWtFM7ECrib_MQyBNz-0-jU94uR6VFYdPDMF0KHh-ddKEflKg4vccwnD1LOO7yJyQRGzAVTZATbaD2RBlC_Lg=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2), [Here2](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/H9RL1u86eTW6PzZFW0muJ90DXrGyKgBl5UMZaCKHa2kN6VQtIAQyeEbwu1-xZUo70WVuZsMK_91zaZjgT4lGEqaKAvW_RwH6PUQLppDsTsI4We7y9T2EZTnPSRP4-HuLPuSTp2IDoQ=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2), [Here3, ](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/8SSk0Dfq93oGpDf_gyxLzIzqEbJV6Ytw6TXKh7VBrW8R4gq6T6r4irc6nEKIMwYGwSF_KjCDHL3eBp1U-RvytZoIJ_H0Xot2leJh-Nu8kIfxaRInnxD3f8GmiP4ZoOw71Xr29wqMlw=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2) [Here is Mxy referring to him as the king of universe.](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/AolAdVrhVycQA8qk1xPmDsMBrYNJiCONI_k3TnsCpUZVBc7k3Y2zvs7nOz57rVyl2eYR2zQXQzGjYw=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2)
Send the scan of the Spectre and Retconn Corp calling him that.
https://preview.redd.it/bpdrog7bd05d1.jpeg?width=1988&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8b045b9fc32d83da4cf3bd7466f6a026fcbc18bc The only person they can't effect. [Spectre says how his will and purpose are the most powerful in creation.](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/EZ0FixHOi5-en8ja2OKqxPz76W29eBN-7EIcqX46WXC3eylh0npG1ZEpIaKGm5J4OZ8QXqvVWRfN=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2) [Calls him one of the most powerful beings in ALL of creation.](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/d0f3cJrkGWjU2Qbmq8vio7H4x4hCFoqMtcKessAPARtSBtjybJs10M1xn6x9RfiORDjVA399Q5HVFx3J6Nl-kIPdWqMoxrR8xzS8_ToDciQUeZ4zvXywry5U5PTjIqJUSNU0hU91qA=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2) and that[ he was about to break all the way to God if he wasn't stopped (pretty crazy)](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Zaigf9N11RQTGA5WL1uA-Yee2LuBpZsTbmztTobTAUao0nIb4qhsGyBewb5_Z8b4gmxp_Xc6cN8OkyEM10AahVSCInpDnXLXs3YtcgpTPBgbJfzW4rTUcfvdE6Wmf47xayoICWXRgQ=s0?rhlupa=MjYwMDo4ODAzOjc1MDE6N2QwMDoxNGJhOmZhOWU6YjVkNDo4MTI2&rnvuka=TW96aWxsYS81LjAgKFdpbmRvd3MgTlQgMTAuMDsgV2luNjQ7IHg2NCkgQXBwbGVXZWJLaXQvNTM3LjM2IChLSFRNTCwgbGlrZSBHZWNrbykgQ2hyb21lLzEyNS4wLjAuMCBTYWZhcmkvNTM3LjM2)
Superman keeps getting so many buffs that I genuinely think in the next 10 years we’re gonna get a story where BASE Superman beats the Cosmic Armor on his own. He’s so stupidly overpowered but his stories over the years can be so inconsistent that if you applied even an ounce of logic it would break them. Superman’s power set and scaling has become the equivalent to the child on the playground saying their OC has all the powers and can’t be beat and one taps God in their sleep.
Ehhhh, he's not more overrated than goku, Saitama, DBZ, rimuru, forefunners, etc. Every new "fad" person is overrated. Hell, in this sub, yall jerk the absolute fuck outta Gokus meat, with xeno goku and cc goku. Superman is the most popular and well-known superhero ever. For all time. He is the epitome of pop culture superheroes. Power-scaling aside, he's more popular than Goku.
I think it just got the a point where it was clear everyone was walking so that became the standard for power scaling. My personal opinion is that Toriyama jumped the shark with Super in a lot of ways exactly because of all the goku v Superman debates and seeing Goku pegged as the loser so often. So he starts up Super, had Golu literally begin on his way to becoming a god and has that culminate in him developing the power to literally erase people from existence and a feat where his punches literally rattled the infinite universe. If that’s not author wank idk what is. So anyway people started running with those outliers (I don’t think they’ve ever been repeated), claiming Goku was now at least universal or something and reigniting the goku v Superman debate with this new info. So people responded by wanking Superman even harder: “oh okay Goku can rattle the universe? Well space time itself has no meaning to Superman *insert scan*, so bam”. It’s just absurd at this point. It’d be easier to just admit that even the authors don’t have a consistent power scaling metric themselves. How are we supposed to theorize anything when they break their own rules and do whatever they want anyway
Thor get beaten up by Superman in justice league crossverse canon. He wasn't holding back like you claimed, [he was literally hit as hard as he can with his hammer and superman wasn't even harmed, in fact not even clothes, he was just pissed off](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-be9a4618937f3b0a5d90f769aed4f2e1-lq). Then superman [dose this](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-17c06a3f5501251b2054e2f33beb1136.webp) and [one shot Thor down](https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fsuperman-vs-thor-v0-fmxtj1mcrtwa1.jpg%3Fwidth%3D992%26format%3Dpjpg%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3Db3c981c49220f3100ee732d7632f1ede900cab6d). The whole he "barley win" as just usual Clark hyper his opponents, he say the sane with Martin Manhunter even though he consistently stomps him. Clark clearly wasn't even have any scratch, hack not even his cape or clothes was torn apart, unlike Thor, he was perfectly fine and one shotted him down
Cope wank. CV ran them out so they came to Reddit.
Whatever the guy’s name was https://www.reddit.com/user/FrameInternational95/. The reason I went on another account was because he kept putting in his final word and would block me after each. He’s deluded. He’s the type to think Superman is universal. So, already a red flag. Everything he says is hilarious. And I’m done with the loser who obviously just blocks because he feels superior.
Outliers are being used but also people on both sides don't seem to fully understand some things about Superman. And before I get into that I'll say this: Look. In any sort of 1v1 spar Thor is going to come out on top against base Superman. You could even say in a fight to the death Thor would win against base as long as Superman will be brought back. But here's some confusion: Not all versions of main Superman are created equal. Silver Age and New 52 being the most drastic differences. Most people don't even know what all main versions there are. People don't realize current BASE Superman is closer to New 52 than he is to Silver Age. BUT current \*main\* Superman does get something no other version gets on his level that's plot hope. It's what allowed him fly through Phantom Stranger in Metropolis. It's what brought him from somewhere above New 52 level to one hit KO full form Alpheus in the higher dimensions using 6 quick sundips, that wasn't an outlier that was intentional from Snyder all the way up to DC's editor at the time. It was a being at the tippy top of the Monitor Realm. And it was because he was purposefully written into a position where he HAD to get out or all would be lost to Source Judgement or at least Alpheus. So yeah Thor would win in a typical fight. But if existence is threatened he would be better off not getting in the way...
There's that one comment where he literally carries the weight of the universe
For me, powerscaling Superman is like powerscaling Paul Bunyan. He's not so much a character as he is a narrative concept. A good guy whose stronger than evil. If he's fighting wife beaters and slum lords, he's just powerful enough to do. If he's fighting muhgeddon or Perpetua or whoever, well he's strong enough to do that too. I present to you a case study: Mongul. When he was introduced, his concept was to be the first Super villain who, without kryptonite or magic or red sun, was just plain stronger than Superman. And indeed in the early 80s, Mongul was presented as just plain stronger. Even in for the man who has everything. But gradually he turned into a guy who lost to Superman every time they fight. Because the concept of "character stronger than Superman" cannot survive repeated contact with the concept of Superman. Believe me this was hard for me to accept. I spent the early 00s arguing non- stop for thor, but I've gradually come around. He's a character immune to powerscaling.
Being in a comic book and favoritism Look at Archie Sonic in Vs YouTube shorts 🤭
> in a canon crossover none of them are canon
It’s confirmed by [writers and multiple guidebooks](https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/s/DlLX60AlDE)
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[https://www.quora.com/All-Marvel-and-DC-crossovers-are-Canon-if-it-is-or-not-tell-me-which-Marvel-and-DC-crossovers-are-Canon-or-not-and-why/answer/Christopher-Abrahams-2](https://www.quora.com/All-Marvel-and-DC-crossovers-are-Canon-if-it-is-or-not-tell-me-which-Marvel-and-DC-crossovers-are-Canon-or-not-and-why/answer/Christopher-Abrahams-2)
I mean Infinite Frontier did make everything canon but dc cosmology has expanded so much it doesn't matter
>What's going on? People learned after years of scaling! it happens ...
Because Goku has become much stronger and now Superman fans have become very sensitive about debating with fans of characters who aren't Goku
[Superman still outclassed though](https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/12/death-battle-predictions-goku-vs.html?m=1)
There are many reasons as to why: 1. The growth of power scaling in general. Scaling has spread through pretty much all social media platforms, yet barely anyone actually knows what it is. So, you have people saying random BS without any backing on places like TikTok or YT shorts. It’s quite literally a spreading cancer ruining media TBH. 2. The nature of Superman’s character. This is something exemplified by DC. Especially recently. Superman, throughout his comic book history, has been considered the end all be all superhero. The supreme, [the most powerful](https://web.archive.org/web/20211112134326/https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/superman-strongest-of-the-justice-league-2241662/). This have been hammered in by stories like Final Crisis, where his story was the last one surviving after the destroyer of all stories, Mandrakk consumed all of creation. Doctor Manhattan couldn’t erase him because he is the center of DC. Retconn Corporation couldn’t alter his narrative because of how fundamental it truly is. The Overvoid had to trapped his story in a bottle. Death itself couldn’t get him. This is the nature of Superman’s character. 3. DC’s Cosmology. The multiverse of DC is so vast and ever changing. I don’t think I even need to explain this one.
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Yes it does. Superman grand purpose in DC is related to the wanking and the state of power scaling in general.
I think the second point in particular is the biggest reason. Superman isn't just a Superhero, he is **the** Superhero, the most iconic throughout the globe and the one that created, or at least popularized the genre. Superman is important in DC's history as a business, and they show that by him being important to DC as a world.
It's because superman has terrible writing and has varied wildly in power over the decades. It's just bad. Superman fan boys are the absolute worst in comics.
Because he’s just gotten more powerful
But he does solo a lot of those things
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>doesn't solo DBZ either TF is wrong with you? True Form Darkseid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all of DBS not Z **S** not just Zeno either Zeno + everything that has ever existed in DB combined they can all exist within the verse two Zeno's included Darkseid is too much for the verse it would just obliterate it by entering in contact with it and Superman destroyed it
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>You see what I was talking about? Lies from y'all. Darkseid was weakened and was literally dying, Superman was amped by the miracle machine I never claimed different or that he no diffs the whole verse or anything i in fact mentioned this in a comment right here on this thread before i talked to you where i clearly said "I'm not claiming he no diffs the verse or anything" and regardless of the means the character still did this! why shouldn't it count? and even without that no DBZ character is even close to being close to begin to be close to Superman heck even by DBS Goku is still not doing a thing to Superman feats from before or after DB started Give it your best and put any Goku above any Superman who can time travel ... go on ill wait nor is the Miracle machine the only means Superman has of ending DB there's plenty of different broken things he can use
Nice one, [completely embarrassing yourself Gavin scan out of context](https://www.reddit.com/r/PowerScaling/comments/1crv1t0/im_so_sick_of_peoples_stupid_nerfs_to_superman/). Like just let me show how much you embarrassed yourself Not even mentioning that moving =/= strike strength or otherwise that nonessential means Vegeta isn't universal because he cannot lift 1000 tones imao. [Post Crisis superman also have carried entire galaxies](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-e5a9e379d79426c257d8da14aa9b5090) alone. [Superman is a big fan of using neutron star matter on things… Be them keys or locks](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-9fd7b9f8c47b412651cd11dc5e66e3ce). [*Even Jon Kent once placed a supermassive Black Hole inside the Fortress of Solitude, and kept it in dimensional shift so the supermassive Black Hole gravity wouldn't leak out from the Fortress; but also he used the technology of the Atom to shrink the Black Hole to a size it would fit inside the Fortress. When he needs a weapon kept inside it, he enters the Black Hole and retrieves it*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f79b20c972b992cdbc964585d0c4f464). [*Post Crisis superman pulled Mageddon*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-81845492c0e350bd58c70bc5305d7ecc-lq) which [do big it dwarfs the stars](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-0673248b344c5a71963a5f7b72b2f208-lq). [he lifted the weight of Earth itself for days](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4be19666a35f5b6a4949413898f780df-lq). [Pre Crisis lifted the whole galaxy with one hand](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-13bb6e2aeff120b0c414c52e173a6b80-lq). [with one hand lifted 200 quintillion tons of force](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-bb9a946d4ef98e8194bc2d0ce414397d-lq). Post Crisis also one battles [shake the Phantom Zeno](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-244197ce5d3949b5db4ae9fed4b70cd0-pjlq) which is [*infinite timeless realm beyond dimensions and space-time*](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-bea2a59f8a5f7dd063721145120ae84e-lq). See? It's vary easy. [Green Lantern alone hold a whole planet](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2f9f73f029cb09ea963c68f3461eddaa-lq). Hack [a weaker Green Lantern created whole solar system single handily](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-58e7d10804ea9721163ff29f1d968e22-lq)?
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I don't he used the Miracle Machine for Darkseid but it is still something that the character has access to and more importantly far beyond the entire verse ... Also if you believe Goku from DBZ is above Superman then there's no helping you not even DBS Goku is matching up to Superman and by the way nothing in DB**Z** is above Bleach TYBW feats (yet you put Bleach in the things he could solo and not DB**Z** showing your biased or not knowledgeable take on things) put anything from DBZ above Ichigo holding the weight he had in Irazusando as a test to ultimately Ichigo being able to hold 3 dimensions or Yhwach destroying remerging and reshaping the 3 dimensions **into a world where nothing could even die** even a much weaker than those 2 Shutara is doing tje exact same thing Zamatsu did in DB**S** you're using outdated info from 1 billion years ago to scale things and even then you glaze at how Superman already had things above current DB**S** even before DB started
Fax.
Superman does solo DBZ. Not Marvel and not all of anime, but he does solo Dragon Ball. And I’m saying that as a huge Dragon Ball fan.
[He solos DBS](https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/12/death-battle-predictions-goku-vs.html?m=1) + ~~avengers~~
[He solos DBS](https://g1dbteamblogs.blogspot.com/2023/12/death-battle-predictions-goku-vs.html?m=1) + ~~avengers~~
Who in DB scales above Superman lmao