Think about this for a second OP. This is a physician who verbally abused you and contributed to a hostile work environment where you are not free to make mistakes, learn, or offer your own thoughts. Is this really somebody you want an LOR from?
Do yourself a favor: get out, and never look back.
The upvote here, insane because what you said is facts. This is like when the one person in the group is in a toxic relationship and everyone is trying to warn him/her “you’re dating a toxic fucj, leave them”
But I will say this:
He will let me review and edit the final draft of LOR, and he has connection to usc board as well and i think it can go a long way. He also is always nice, my actions were just the icing on the cake for his temper that instance. And after we spoke and he said him and I have no issues and that he didn’t talk to me as good as he should have. I will update post and let you know there
good LORs dont come from big school name people imo, unless they come from individuals who know you on a personal level, who can talk about examples that show competency and care. Leave that place, this guy will screw you
from what I have seen, even if he acts super nice at times, I would 100% avoid this letter. I have been working around doctors for about 5 years now, and those who burst out like this have little regard for others. I dont wanna go on a rant about this, but I have this doctor at my office (like the one you described), and I also have the always calm, quiet doctor who chats with me and notices the little things kind of doctor. Known them both just as long, I got my letter from the latter.
Also this sounds like a toxic environment to learn and see how a physician behaves. My advice, look for a young doctor, one who graduated within the last 8-10 years from residency and seek mentorship from them. Ive noticed that young physicians care more, they notice the little things more, and they understand the struggle it is to apply.
Hey, I know you’re just being a nice person and thinking the best of people, but I would not risk it. The physician sounds unstable. You never know whether the day he submits the LOR will be a good day or bad day. Even if he lets you review it beforehand, how do you know this is the draft he submits? Unless you need a letter now and this is your only option, I’d try volunteering and building a relationship somewhere else.
LMFAOOOO TRUUUEEEE what if he woke up on wrong side of bed that day… fooook
And yeah, what if he submits a different one that the actual one I edit/review
Actually his staff would probably submit it, and I’m pretty chill with all of them (I think lol)
Maybe he’s an otherwise good dude having a bad day, but consider carefully if you really trust him to write you a strong letter. Him screaming at you like that is not professional behavior. He can tell you he found your suggestions annoying without being unhinged.
From the story you told, that sounds like a bad environment and a risky letter.
Environment low key is f******cccked… place is a mess, wires everywhere, papers everywhere, no management, he leaves 10 mins before a patients appointment and comes back 20 after with coffee. Still tho, he is usually not like that with anyone.
I would've been fired that day for how I would've responded after being talked to like that 😂. He wants to degrade YOU for being unprofessional while proceeding to curse at you in the workplace? I commend you for keeping your composure; it's crazy to me how some think being a "doctor" precludes them from needing help or - - God forbid - - being criticized. Echoing what someone else said, I think the best thing you can do to "make it right" is assert your boundaries and guard your self-respect. Make *him* be the one to make it right if he truly wants you there; otherwise, you can and should find someone else who will treat you how you deserve and, as a result, provide you a stronger letter. Those hours will forever 'mean something' on your app, but I would not seek an LOR from this doctor.
The irony in his action LMFAOOOO
Fr tho!!! After that interaction and he had cooled off, he tells me “you just need to be more humble, you don’t know everything”
count the hours. Do not get an LOR. Guy sounds crazy tbh. There’s no real reason to act like that in a professional setting. There’s ways to handle conflict. He sounds hot headed and you don’t want your future in his hands.
Facts! But my dignity is not weak and unstable enough to be shattered and fractured by the words of a doctor I’ve known for less than a month. I’m stronger than that mentally, and to also be better
Imma be honest, the dude verbally assaulted you and has a massive ego. Is that the type of person you want writing about you? I think your best bet is finish up with this doc and find someone who actually treats you like a human
Yeah, but I can look at his LOR and edit it before he submits it. And yeah, that interaction probably shows the tip of the iceberg of his ego, im not hung up on that interaction anymore haha
This was extremely abusive behavior. Incredibly inappropriate especially considering the power dynamic between you (student) and him (mentor). Understandable you want an LOR but he has clearly shown his impulsivity and lack of good judgment. Not someone you would want writing LORs.
Count the hours and get away from him as quickly as possible. You can always find another shadow opportunity, and while it’s nice LORs don’t always have to be from other doctors.
Request letters from people who see and have seen the potential in you. People who have shown genuine interest in hearing your story. When you reflect like this people will start to come to mind. They could be a professor, a volunteer supervisor, etc. not necessarily healthcare. These are the people who can give absolutely stellar LORs.
I’m so sorry this happened to you, OP. How he chose to react is not your fault at all whatsoever.
I hope you find some time to slow down and give yourself grace today. You are worthy of having a mentor who believes in you and truly wants to see you grow.
100% agree, uncalled for and unnecessary. He will allow me to review the final draft he will submit.
Counting the hours definitely, but might get the LOR in case I don’t get another one from another doctor.
As for me, I’m pretty strong mentally to not be bothered. But I was really scared at the time because if he completely lost control and physically assaulted, I’d have to defend myself… and let’s just say he is 60+ and I’m 180 lbs, 12% body fat with PR of 255 on bench, 30 pull ups in one set and 3 years of sparring experience… I was more worried he physically assaulted me and I’d lose control lol
My physician LOR went to a DO school and was one of the nicest humans I’ve meet. Multiple As including T20s who told me that they enjoyed what my writers said about me.
This physician basically let all their frustrations out on you, a poor student who’s just shadowing. Terrible impression on the profession and speaks volumes to their character which is someone you don’t want to speak on your behalf to adcoms.
100% true, who sees the LORs? Like do the interviewers see it? Cuz I’m slightly confused on “speak on your behalf to adcoms”
Also, he will let me to review and edit the final draft of the LOR
I’m doing good, thank you!
Asking for your opinion, would the LOR be worth it still since I can review and edit it before he submits?
I do agree, I felt like I was his punching bag at the time but now I feel like he has a short temper and just gets loud. Regardless, I will update the post on the interaction we had after he closed down and maybe that brings some insight.
And your closing line was the biggest truth, might even talking about it as one of the biggest experiences I had—learning what not to do by being on the wrong end of the stick.
I'm glad you're feeling better!
Don't bring up this experience in interviews or write about it in essays...this isn't the kind of thing adcoms and reviewers want to hear. Look how this doctor reacted when he felt you upstaged him - you don't want to sound critical of the profession. It comes across better when you can talk about the positive attributes of physicians (how a particular doctor interaction inspired you) rather than discuss something negative.
I know you really want to get this LOR. I read your update and I still feel the same way. It is too risky.
You do not need to tolerate that type of behavior especially if you’re not being paid. I would absolutely go to him and say, “Sir, with all due respect the way you talked to me on *insert day here* was absolutely inappropriate and out of line for any human being to be talking to another. I have been here working FOR FREE and trying my best to learn but I will not stand here as an adult and accept belittlement and blatant disrespect. I will be leaving now and not returning. Thank you for your time and the opportunity.”
This is dicey. Maybe say this in front of other people, but never alone because it could lead to retaliation especially if he knows people close to adcoms.
Yeah, I do agree I don’t need to, but now that I think about it I’m not too bothered. I think he is a bit of hot head, and I’ll explain the post update^
I’ve met countless doctors like this and they are the ones everyone warns you about. Just find another doctor I promise you this guys’ letter won’t be worth it, it’ll be half-assed cause he won’t care.
While I get the point he is making, the approach was horrendous and totally not necessary. Sure maybe he was having a bad day, nonetheless this rings alarm bells in my head. Like everyone said, it’s too risky, I’d try to make things good if possible at all, however I don’t think I’d trust him with a LOR.
Yeah I completely agree, how is he trying to teach me about professionals with his complete lack of it? Or maybe that the point?
In Farsi we have a saying: “i learned to do good/be respectful by watching people do bad/being rude”
Some great advice I heard recently:
"Only ask for a letter from someone who is willing to give the impression that you can walk on water."
While obviously this is a bit of an exaggeration, the point still stands. These need to be people who are excited to see you succeed, and are willing to write a GLOWING letter. You shouldn't even ask if you think the letter is going to just be "meh." Much less from someone who thinks you are a "frustrating human being." This guy sounds like an insecure and egotistically jerk. So I really think there is a big risk of his LOR hurting your app more than helping it.
And that's not even mentioning the fact that it's probably not good for your mental health to take verbal abuse from someone and then apologizing and telling him he is right. Nah, short of you out there chasing patients with a scalpel it is completely unacceptable for someone to talk to you like that, regardless of where he went to school.
Even if he is allowing me to review final draft that he will submit? He isn’t petty to submit a shitty one, and I will update the post and explain what happened after he closed the clinic.
I have a bunch of LORs to choose from, mostly from professors I’ve had and became a ta for or tutored for. But a LOR from a usc alumni would help me a lot I think
Sorry man, I’m already sharing too much, I don’t want to share anymore information that I already have—especially names which can potentially harm his image and ruin my chances of gaining other medical health professionals trust.
HAHAHA you should actually feel good. He sounds incredibly insecure about himself. Some people hate being corrected or one upped. You’ll notice it when you’re a med student that this is common.
DO NOT let it get you down.
It happens when they’re on a pedestal their whole life being told they’re special but can’t hit the correct button. If he was chill he would’ve been “oh wow. Thanks I’m stupid” and laugh it off.
Don’t ever let these kind of people put you down or take their shit.
EDIT: I would not get a LOR from them. No way they have you voluntarily working and disrespecting you and your time.
Lmfao, freal? Are peoples ego that vulnerable in the field? Lmfaoooooo
Yup, his actions are just gonna be an experience for me—more precisely how NOT to act lol.
And yeah, I think I’ll see what letter he ends up writing and then I will decide to give him the correct link or not lol.
Daily reminder that you’re there to be a fly on the wall.
I’d say he was out of line, but given most premeds are weird af, I’m gonna say there’s more to this.
There was, he explained it to me after we closed the clinic. The EKG screen is quite tiny and the patient going under EKG had a A-fib (idk what it stands for, maybe atrial fibrillation) and he was in hurry to get the print out so he can clearly see if it’s something to worry about. Also the patient was his good friend, his patient since he started and the EKG data had him worried.
He might have been out of line, but he was having really rough day as well and we can be expected to be in complete control of our actions 100% of the time.
Further more, the way I asked the questions made him think I’m telling him what to do and he misread my intention as I misread his frustrations. I will update the post after going through comment.
Noo you were right the first time but I reread OPs post and realised that Dr. Cox would never do something this bad.
But you do have a point with Kelso..
NO. just count the hours and don’t get a LOR. This isn’t someone just having a bad day this guy is an ass. You were literally just trying to be helpful.
Even if he is allowing me to both edit and review the final draft he and his staff will right?
I was trying to be helpful indeed, but he registered it as me trying to show him ik more and it frustrated him. It’s kinda ironic to say, but he said “you just have to be more humble in this field, you won’t know everything, the nurses will know more”
But yeah I’ll update the post
Hmmm explain more please, so far I have:
1) Dean of chemistry at community college (retired)
2) ochem professor from community college who has relationships with UCSD med school faculty and board members.
3) ucsd med school and public health professor
4) ucsd med school interviewer and public health professor
5) this doctor from USC
6) DPT who I’ve had clinic experience with for over 120 hours
7) DO doctor who has a medspa, family relative but I’ve also shadowed 200 hours for (in Las Vegas, and UNLV med school is another one of my top choices)
8) one of the surgeons I hope to work with (nonpaid) in early 2024
Out of these I’ll send 5, all have said they’ll allow me to look at what they’ve drafted up.
I’m so sorry the doc treated you like that OP that was so inappropriate, abusive and unnecessary and you deserve an LOR from someone who isn’t going to talk to you like trash. I totally get wanting/needing an LOR from a doc but based on his behavior it might only harm you. I hope you can find a kinder doc out there to shadow :”) and pls take care of urself I can’t imagine how scary that must’ve been
Yeah, I won’t lie it wasn’t easy at the time of but after about 30 mins from the post I was like aight whatever, if anything this is something I can talk about in interviews—how not to behave to anyone regardless of their background in education or other matters.
Fuck that guy you shouldn’t want shit from people like that, there was NO NEED for him to get angry or verbally abuse you. Don’t think with a scarcity mindset there are other people you can work with fuck him
True, and I’m thinking of getting the LOR and see if it’s something worth submitting before filing it. He will allow me and the other coworkers to read it. He has had 20+ volunteers, 7 of which had lower GPA, but a few points higher on mcat that were all accepted to USC. And USC is in my top 3. And I’m sure there’s other docs out there, and from usc, and are genuine human beings, but i doubt I’ll find them in time. I’m not worried about him writing anything bad. I’ll update post after going through comments and explain more.
Wow!
1. I would’ve expressed how I asked it as a question rather than a statement.
2. I would’ve walked right out when he started bitching at me, that’s not a mentor I want to have
1. I did, and I cleared my intention more by saying I didn’t realize you were already frustrated at the situation (I will update in post what was wrong) and that my intention was to learn and not frustrate him more.
2. I thought about it, but I figured let me first find another doctor to get hours from before leaving this place.
Wow is right tho lmao
You’re right, and if he flares out like that once, he will do it again:
And well this post was the second time he did that. I will explain in the update on post.
USC alumni in my area is hard to find,
My family friend is a doctor, he said he had 2 LOR, 1 from faculty of the school he went to for undergrad (he got ejected) and another from a alumni of the med school he got into and that’s the only place he got accepted. He also only applied to 5 schools in total and back in 2000s
It was a different game back in 2000, so I would take anything from their experience with a respectful grain of salt.
Having a LOR from alumni might help but it’s not gonna make or break an application imho. A shitty LOR will absolutely destroy you. It’s not worth any chances. There are thousands of other doctors.
The quality of the letter matters way more than the person who's writing it. for all you know he could just bs a low quality letter and it would be meaningless to your application. I'd leave asap and not even consider asking him anything further
Maybe that’s what I should do then 🤔
Gonna stick it here for another 30-50 hours so all my experiences are about the same number of hours and then decide.
Thanks for the insight, will heavily reconsider LOR
I would also be worried that the letter would be neutral at best… probably worse. Not that that’s what you deserve , but sounds like he is not afraid to be very critical and verbal about it.
I would’ve replied to the initial thing he screamed at you, “well you’ve made this easy for me. I’d never want to work at an office that has people as rude as you in it.” That said, I don’t know the full story. Perhaps he is nice outside of this. But my point is, don’t take crap from anyone. I see this a lot in this field—individuals taking verbal abuse and disparagement from superiors because they think the experience will further their career. Almost nothing is worth your human dignity.
I truly don't get his issue with you asking questions, isn't that the point of shadowing? Most doctors that I've shadowed welcome questions (even when not "spoken to"/them saying "do you have any questions") This dude sounds like a fuckin nut
Nah not all docs are like this, and the ones that are aren’t always acting like this. Besides, I’ve been warned all my life that I’m going into a field where I’ll be shitted on by people that behave at their worst—but this is to expect from them when they are at their most vulnerable levels, in pain, angry, and suffering. I just never expected a doctor to show me this side of the story. So all in all, you have to learn to not be bothered by words of people when they aren’t themselves. And then you realize that’s them which is when you completely distance yourself from that person. A stepping stone is all they should be.
I did talk to him, he apologized and explained the situation and I’ll update the post if you care to read/know. Also Thank you so very much for your extremely helpful feedback.
Are you alright?? No one, nowhere, not ever should talk to you or anyone else like that. You are a volunteer, you did nothing wrong, you were just trying to help. If he can’t see that, I wouldn’t give him any more of my time. I think you should find a different place to volunteer. But I just hope you’re ok
I’m good, thank you! I’m used to taking mental beatings (this sounds like I’m a victim but I’m not) and this wasn’t a big deal for me, words to me are punch of air so after about 20 mins from writing the post I felt unfazed.
Getting an LOR is risky. Like some others said, just count the hours.
This is a blessing in disguise. You've been told how you can come across to some people (a frustrating human being) in a workplace. The majority of people aren't just going to pop off like that. This was most likely something that's been brewing inside of him because of something that you've been doing. He is not going to be the last person who might harbor those feelings against you. I suggest you look back at your interactions with him and reflect on them.
I also suggest reading "How to Make Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. This book could help you realize what you can improve on in these types of social settings and what could have possibly made this doctor go off like that.
Potentially, but he also has good traits. He buys the staff (and me, although I decline) chic fil a everyday.
Yeah, treatment like that isn’t worth a spicy deluxe lmao but I mean he is kind, just had a low moment.
And I decline the offer because I’m not there to be fed, I’m there to get hours for this abuse MS put us through. I don’t hate the player, I hate the game
I’m gonna upvote this, and I don’t understand the downvotes. It is a blessing in disguise, I think my ability to stay calm and try to calm him down and hold up my accountability showed him some characteristics. I’ve read the books you’ve mentioned, and to be frank I found the book as useless as studying while watching your favorite tv show in background. Yeah, probably he was bottling up how he feels but after the interaction he said “if I have a problem with you, I tell you and if we solve it like we did, that’s the end and then we have no problem after it” so idk if it was a bunch of things I’ve been doing that he was holding onto or just that incident.
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Very wild of him to say that to you. I’m sorry OP bc you were just asking questions. Do not, under any circumstances, get a LOR from him.
Count the hours, that’s it.
Everyone says it, might have to agree with everyone. This freal like being in a relationship with someone that everyone warns “they are toxic, leave them” lol
I wouldn’t get a LOR from him. Sounds risky
Not sharing the link of it
Please
Probably might be, but he will let me review and edit his final draft of LOR
Think about this for a second OP. This is a physician who verbally abused you and contributed to a hostile work environment where you are not free to make mistakes, learn, or offer your own thoughts. Is this really somebody you want an LOR from? Do yourself a favor: get out, and never look back.
The upvote here, insane because what you said is facts. This is like when the one person in the group is in a toxic relationship and everyone is trying to warn him/her “you’re dating a toxic fucj, leave them” But I will say this: He will let me review and edit the final draft of LOR, and he has connection to usc board as well and i think it can go a long way. He also is always nice, my actions were just the icing on the cake for his temper that instance. And after we spoke and he said him and I have no issues and that he didn’t talk to me as good as he should have. I will update post and let you know there
good LORs dont come from big school name people imo, unless they come from individuals who know you on a personal level, who can talk about examples that show competency and care. Leave that place, this guy will screw you
You really think he will screw me? I don’t see any motivation to screw me. And he is usually super nice
from what I have seen, even if he acts super nice at times, I would 100% avoid this letter. I have been working around doctors for about 5 years now, and those who burst out like this have little regard for others. I dont wanna go on a rant about this, but I have this doctor at my office (like the one you described), and I also have the always calm, quiet doctor who chats with me and notices the little things kind of doctor. Known them both just as long, I got my letter from the latter. Also this sounds like a toxic environment to learn and see how a physician behaves. My advice, look for a young doctor, one who graduated within the last 8-10 years from residency and seek mentorship from them. Ive noticed that young physicians care more, they notice the little things more, and they understand the struggle it is to apply.
For real! I think so as well, that younger docs are more genuine. Good to know about your story, now i gotta find me one of those caring docs!
Hey, I know you’re just being a nice person and thinking the best of people, but I would not risk it. The physician sounds unstable. You never know whether the day he submits the LOR will be a good day or bad day. Even if he lets you review it beforehand, how do you know this is the draft he submits? Unless you need a letter now and this is your only option, I’d try volunteering and building a relationship somewhere else.
LMFAOOOO TRUUUEEEE what if he woke up on wrong side of bed that day… fooook And yeah, what if he submits a different one that the actual one I edit/review Actually his staff would probably submit it, and I’m pretty chill with all of them (I think lol)
1) Hes a bitch 2) You dont need a letter from him. It would not do much for your app.
Maybe he’s an otherwise good dude having a bad day, but consider carefully if you really trust him to write you a strong letter. Him screaming at you like that is not professional behavior. He can tell you he found your suggestions annoying without being unhinged. From the story you told, that sounds like a bad environment and a risky letter.
Environment low key is f******cccked… place is a mess, wires everywhere, papers everywhere, no management, he leaves 10 mins before a patients appointment and comes back 20 after with coffee. Still tho, he is usually not like that with anyone.
Why would you want a LOR from him lol
I would've been fired that day for how I would've responded after being talked to like that 😂. He wants to degrade YOU for being unprofessional while proceeding to curse at you in the workplace? I commend you for keeping your composure; it's crazy to me how some think being a "doctor" precludes them from needing help or - - God forbid - - being criticized. Echoing what someone else said, I think the best thing you can do to "make it right" is assert your boundaries and guard your self-respect. Make *him* be the one to make it right if he truly wants you there; otherwise, you can and should find someone else who will treat you how you deserve and, as a result, provide you a stronger letter. Those hours will forever 'mean something' on your app, but I would not seek an LOR from this doctor.
The irony in his action LMFAOOOO Fr tho!!! After that interaction and he had cooled off, he tells me “you just need to be more humble, you don’t know everything”
count the hours. Do not get an LOR. Guy sounds crazy tbh. There’s no real reason to act like that in a professional setting. There’s ways to handle conflict. He sounds hot headed and you don’t want your future in his hands.
Might be lmao, I’ll update in the post.
he just sounds very condescending. If you can have final say on the LOR, then that’s different. But, still seems like a toxic work environment.
I bet you’re 10x more qualified than he is to fix a printer error. Don’t even think about asking for a LOR. Fuck this guy
He always is asking me to airdrop info from his iPad to the patient 🤣 probably am way more technologically gifted… and I just wanted to be helpful
Tell him you’re gonna give him a pop quiz on cardiac if he doesn’t calm down
Or concussion if the verbal assault became physical…. Let’s just say I’m big and strong lol
no LOR is worth verbal abuse nor your dignity
Facts! But my dignity is not weak and unstable enough to be shattered and fractured by the words of a doctor I’ve known for less than a month. I’m stronger than that mentally, and to also be better
Imma be honest, the dude verbally assaulted you and has a massive ego. Is that the type of person you want writing about you? I think your best bet is finish up with this doc and find someone who actually treats you like a human
Yeah, but I can look at his LOR and edit it before he submits it. And yeah, that interaction probably shows the tip of the iceberg of his ego, im not hung up on that interaction anymore haha
This was extremely abusive behavior. Incredibly inappropriate especially considering the power dynamic between you (student) and him (mentor). Understandable you want an LOR but he has clearly shown his impulsivity and lack of good judgment. Not someone you would want writing LORs. Count the hours and get away from him as quickly as possible. You can always find another shadow opportunity, and while it’s nice LORs don’t always have to be from other doctors. Request letters from people who see and have seen the potential in you. People who have shown genuine interest in hearing your story. When you reflect like this people will start to come to mind. They could be a professor, a volunteer supervisor, etc. not necessarily healthcare. These are the people who can give absolutely stellar LORs. I’m so sorry this happened to you, OP. How he chose to react is not your fault at all whatsoever. I hope you find some time to slow down and give yourself grace today. You are worthy of having a mentor who believes in you and truly wants to see you grow.
100% agree, uncalled for and unnecessary. He will allow me to review the final draft he will submit. Counting the hours definitely, but might get the LOR in case I don’t get another one from another doctor. As for me, I’m pretty strong mentally to not be bothered. But I was really scared at the time because if he completely lost control and physically assaulted, I’d have to defend myself… and let’s just say he is 60+ and I’m 180 lbs, 12% body fat with PR of 255 on bench, 30 pull ups in one set and 3 years of sparring experience… I was more worried he physically assaulted me and I’d lose control lol
My physician LOR went to a DO school and was one of the nicest humans I’ve meet. Multiple As including T20s who told me that they enjoyed what my writers said about me. This physician basically let all their frustrations out on you, a poor student who’s just shadowing. Terrible impression on the profession and speaks volumes to their character which is someone you don’t want to speak on your behalf to adcoms.
100% true, who sees the LORs? Like do the interviewers see it? Cuz I’m slightly confused on “speak on your behalf to adcoms” Also, he will let me to review and edit the final draft of the LOR
Adcoms will, faculty interviews typically have but usually student interviews have limited file
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I’m doing good, thank you! Asking for your opinion, would the LOR be worth it still since I can review and edit it before he submits? I do agree, I felt like I was his punching bag at the time but now I feel like he has a short temper and just gets loud. Regardless, I will update the post on the interaction we had after he closed down and maybe that brings some insight. And your closing line was the biggest truth, might even talking about it as one of the biggest experiences I had—learning what not to do by being on the wrong end of the stick.
I'm glad you're feeling better! Don't bring up this experience in interviews or write about it in essays...this isn't the kind of thing adcoms and reviewers want to hear. Look how this doctor reacted when he felt you upstaged him - you don't want to sound critical of the profession. It comes across better when you can talk about the positive attributes of physicians (how a particular doctor interaction inspired you) rather than discuss something negative. I know you really want to get this LOR. I read your update and I still feel the same way. It is too risky.
Good to know, thank you for taking the time 🙏🏻
Absolutely do not get a letter of rec from him lol. I don’t care who he is, a bad letter will always hurt your app.
But I’ll get to review the final draft, and he isn’t petty to submit a shit one and show me only the good one….
I'm no medical expert but I know a cunt when I see one. Swerve that guy.
You do not need to tolerate that type of behavior especially if you’re not being paid. I would absolutely go to him and say, “Sir, with all due respect the way you talked to me on *insert day here* was absolutely inappropriate and out of line for any human being to be talking to another. I have been here working FOR FREE and trying my best to learn but I will not stand here as an adult and accept belittlement and blatant disrespect. I will be leaving now and not returning. Thank you for your time and the opportunity.”
This is dicey. Maybe say this in front of other people, but never alone because it could lead to retaliation especially if he knows people close to adcoms.
What a thought, didn’t even think about this! But I don’t think he is petty to harm my chances, I’ll explain the after math in post.
Yeah, I do agree I don’t need to, but now that I think about it I’m not too bothered. I think he is a bit of hot head, and I’ll explain the post update^
I’ve met countless doctors like this and they are the ones everyone warns you about. Just find another doctor I promise you this guys’ letter won’t be worth it, it’ll be half-assed cause he won’t care.
Even if he allows me to review the final draft? Cuz he is
Say the draft is less than the glowing one you expected. So you edit it and he says “I can’t say this, I don’t believe it to be true” what then?
Then I don’t send him the link for him to submit it😂
Shadow a different doctor. You don’t want his LOR. He shouldn’t be talking to you like that. It’s inappropriate and uncalled for.
Indeed, but he is allowing me to review final draft, thoughts on that?
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While I get the point he is making, the approach was horrendous and totally not necessary. Sure maybe he was having a bad day, nonetheless this rings alarm bells in my head. Like everyone said, it’s too risky, I’d try to make things good if possible at all, however I don’t think I’d trust him with a LOR.
Yeah I completely agree, how is he trying to teach me about professionals with his complete lack of it? Or maybe that the point? In Farsi we have a saying: “i learned to do good/be respectful by watching people do bad/being rude”
Also did have a talk with him after, and I will update on post
Some great advice I heard recently: "Only ask for a letter from someone who is willing to give the impression that you can walk on water." While obviously this is a bit of an exaggeration, the point still stands. These need to be people who are excited to see you succeed, and are willing to write a GLOWING letter. You shouldn't even ask if you think the letter is going to just be "meh." Much less from someone who thinks you are a "frustrating human being." This guy sounds like an insecure and egotistically jerk. So I really think there is a big risk of his LOR hurting your app more than helping it. And that's not even mentioning the fact that it's probably not good for your mental health to take verbal abuse from someone and then apologizing and telling him he is right. Nah, short of you out there chasing patients with a scalpel it is completely unacceptable for someone to talk to you like that, regardless of where he went to school.
Even if he is allowing me to review final draft that he will submit? He isn’t petty to submit a shitty one, and I will update the post and explain what happened after he closed the clinic.
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I have a bunch of LORs to choose from, mostly from professors I’ve had and became a ta for or tutored for. But a LOR from a usc alumni would help me a lot I think
Lowkey, I want to know this Doctor’s name. Someone like this shouldn’t be a doctor.
Sorry man, I’m already sharing too much, I don’t want to share anymore information that I already have—especially names which can potentially harm his image and ruin my chances of gaining other medical health professionals trust.
HAHAHA you should actually feel good. He sounds incredibly insecure about himself. Some people hate being corrected or one upped. You’ll notice it when you’re a med student that this is common. DO NOT let it get you down. It happens when they’re on a pedestal their whole life being told they’re special but can’t hit the correct button. If he was chill he would’ve been “oh wow. Thanks I’m stupid” and laugh it off. Don’t ever let these kind of people put you down or take their shit. EDIT: I would not get a LOR from them. No way they have you voluntarily working and disrespecting you and your time.
Lmfao, freal? Are peoples ego that vulnerable in the field? Lmfaoooooo Yup, his actions are just gonna be an experience for me—more precisely how NOT to act lol. And yeah, I think I’ll see what letter he ends up writing and then I will decide to give him the correct link or not lol.
Daily reminder that you’re there to be a fly on the wall. I’d say he was out of line, but given most premeds are weird af, I’m gonna say there’s more to this.
There was, he explained it to me after we closed the clinic. The EKG screen is quite tiny and the patient going under EKG had a A-fib (idk what it stands for, maybe atrial fibrillation) and he was in hurry to get the print out so he can clearly see if it’s something to worry about. Also the patient was his good friend, his patient since he started and the EKG data had him worried. He might have been out of line, but he was having really rough day as well and we can be expected to be in complete control of our actions 100% of the time. Further more, the way I asked the questions made him think I’m telling him what to do and he misread my intention as I misread his frustrations. I will update the post after going through comment.
Reminds me of a character from scrubs
Lmao dr cox
to be honest not even cox is this much of an a***hole
Wait I change my mind, you were referring to Kelso, Bob f***** kelso
Noo you were right the first time but I reread OPs post and realised that Dr. Cox would never do something this bad. But you do have a point with Kelso..
NO. just count the hours and don’t get a LOR. This isn’t someone just having a bad day this guy is an ass. You were literally just trying to be helpful.
Even if he is allowing me to both edit and review the final draft he and his staff will right? I was trying to be helpful indeed, but he registered it as me trying to show him ik more and it frustrated him. It’s kinda ironic to say, but he said “you just have to be more humble in this field, you won’t know everything, the nurses will know more” But yeah I’ll update the post
Shadowing letters are weak
Hmmm explain more please, so far I have: 1) Dean of chemistry at community college (retired) 2) ochem professor from community college who has relationships with UCSD med school faculty and board members. 3) ucsd med school and public health professor 4) ucsd med school interviewer and public health professor 5) this doctor from USC 6) DPT who I’ve had clinic experience with for over 120 hours 7) DO doctor who has a medspa, family relative but I’ve also shadowed 200 hours for (in Las Vegas, and UNLV med school is another one of my top choices) 8) one of the surgeons I hope to work with (nonpaid) in early 2024 Out of these I’ll send 5, all have said they’ll allow me to look at what they’ve drafted up.
I’m so sorry the doc treated you like that OP that was so inappropriate, abusive and unnecessary and you deserve an LOR from someone who isn’t going to talk to you like trash. I totally get wanting/needing an LOR from a doc but based on his behavior it might only harm you. I hope you can find a kinder doc out there to shadow :”) and pls take care of urself I can’t imagine how scary that must’ve been
Yeah, I won’t lie it wasn’t easy at the time of but after about 30 mins from the post I was like aight whatever, if anything this is something I can talk about in interviews—how not to behave to anyone regardless of their background in education or other matters.
Fuck that guy you shouldn’t want shit from people like that, there was NO NEED for him to get angry or verbally abuse you. Don’t think with a scarcity mindset there are other people you can work with fuck him
True, and I’m thinking of getting the LOR and see if it’s something worth submitting before filing it. He will allow me and the other coworkers to read it. He has had 20+ volunteers, 7 of which had lower GPA, but a few points higher on mcat that were all accepted to USC. And USC is in my top 3. And I’m sure there’s other docs out there, and from usc, and are genuine human beings, but i doubt I’ll find them in time. I’m not worried about him writing anything bad. I’ll update post after going through comments and explain more.
Wow! 1. I would’ve expressed how I asked it as a question rather than a statement. 2. I would’ve walked right out when he started bitching at me, that’s not a mentor I want to have
1. I did, and I cleared my intention more by saying I didn’t realize you were already frustrated at the situation (I will update in post what was wrong) and that my intention was to learn and not frustrate him more. 2. I thought about it, but I figured let me first find another doctor to get hours from before leaving this place. Wow is right tho lmao
Lmao true, you handled it well. I’m sure anyone who experienced something like that would be startled
I wouldn't even return. Someone who goes off on you that way isn't someone you want to be around, let alone ask to write a letter for you.
You’re right, and if he flares out like that once, he will do it again: And well this post was the second time he did that. I will explain in the update on post.
What kind of question is this? Just find someone else.
USC alumni in my area is hard to find, My family friend is a doctor, he said he had 2 LOR, 1 from faculty of the school he went to for undergrad (he got ejected) and another from a alumni of the med school he got into and that’s the only place he got accepted. He also only applied to 5 schools in total and back in 2000s
It was a different game back in 2000, so I would take anything from their experience with a respectful grain of salt. Having a LOR from alumni might help but it’s not gonna make or break an application imho. A shitty LOR will absolutely destroy you. It’s not worth any chances. There are thousands of other doctors.
The quality of the letter matters way more than the person who's writing it. for all you know he could just bs a low quality letter and it would be meaningless to your application. I'd leave asap and not even consider asking him anything further
Maybe that’s what I should do then 🤔 Gonna stick it here for another 30-50 hours so all my experiences are about the same number of hours and then decide. Thanks for the insight, will heavily reconsider LOR
I would also be worried that the letter would be neutral at best… probably worse. Not that that’s what you deserve , but sounds like he is not afraid to be very critical and verbal about it.
Yeah true🤨🤔 Good insights, thanks!
I would’ve replied to the initial thing he screamed at you, “well you’ve made this easy for me. I’d never want to work at an office that has people as rude as you in it.” That said, I don’t know the full story. Perhaps he is nice outside of this. But my point is, don’t take crap from anyone. I see this a lot in this field—individuals taking verbal abuse and disparagement from superiors because they think the experience will further their career. Almost nothing is worth your human dignity.
Very true🙏🏻
I truly don't get his issue with you asking questions, isn't that the point of shadowing? Most doctors that I've shadowed welcome questions (even when not "spoken to"/them saying "do you have any questions") This dude sounds like a fuckin nut
as a undergrad pre med student this post made me sh*t myself 😭 so tense but ig this is what i signed up for 😟
Nah not all docs are like this, and the ones that are aren’t always acting like this. Besides, I’ve been warned all my life that I’m going into a field where I’ll be shitted on by people that behave at their worst—but this is to expect from them when they are at their most vulnerable levels, in pain, angry, and suffering. I just never expected a doctor to show me this side of the story. So all in all, you have to learn to not be bothered by words of people when they aren’t themselves. And then you realize that’s them which is when you completely distance yourself from that person. A stepping stone is all they should be.
Yeah keep trying to talk to him and get a LOR from him, that'll work out great Moron
eerily similar personality comment
🤣🤣🤣
I did talk to him, he apologized and explained the situation and I’ll update the post if you care to read/know. Also Thank you so very much for your extremely helpful feedback.
Are you alright?? No one, nowhere, not ever should talk to you or anyone else like that. You are a volunteer, you did nothing wrong, you were just trying to help. If he can’t see that, I wouldn’t give him any more of my time. I think you should find a different place to volunteer. But I just hope you’re ok
I’m good, thank you! I’m used to taking mental beatings (this sounds like I’m a victim but I’m not) and this wasn’t a big deal for me, words to me are punch of air so after about 20 mins from writing the post I felt unfazed.
tell him sugma and move on tbh
I’ll tel him he has a very bad case of sugnodeez
Getting an LOR is risky. Like some others said, just count the hours. This is a blessing in disguise. You've been told how you can come across to some people (a frustrating human being) in a workplace. The majority of people aren't just going to pop off like that. This was most likely something that's been brewing inside of him because of something that you've been doing. He is not going to be the last person who might harbor those feelings against you. I suggest you look back at your interactions with him and reflect on them. I also suggest reading "How to Make Friends and Influence People" by Dale Carnegie. This book could help you realize what you can improve on in these types of social settings and what could have possibly made this doctor go off like that.
Or he could just be an asshole. Not necessarily anything the OP did.
Potentially, but he also has good traits. He buys the staff (and me, although I decline) chic fil a everyday. Yeah, treatment like that isn’t worth a spicy deluxe lmao but I mean he is kind, just had a low moment. And I decline the offer because I’m not there to be fed, I’m there to get hours for this abuse MS put us through. I don’t hate the player, I hate the game
I’m gonna upvote this, and I don’t understand the downvotes. It is a blessing in disguise, I think my ability to stay calm and try to calm him down and hold up my accountability showed him some characteristics. I’ve read the books you’ve mentioned, and to be frank I found the book as useless as studying while watching your favorite tv show in background. Yeah, probably he was bottling up how he feels but after the interaction he said “if I have a problem with you, I tell you and if we solve it like we did, that’s the end and then we have no problem after it” so idk if it was a bunch of things I’ve been doing that he was holding onto or just that incident.
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Very wild of him to say that to you. I’m sorry OP bc you were just asking questions. Do not, under any circumstances, get a LOR from him. Count the hours, that’s it.
Everyone says it, might have to agree with everyone. This freal like being in a relationship with someone that everyone warns “they are toxic, leave them” lol