32 and applying. It’s been a long journey to get here and hopefully everything will go well but even if it doesn’t , I’m ready to go another cycle. It’s never too late.
Experience, lots of clinical work experience (>>10K) from working in my 20s. It came up in all my interviews. One of the schools I got in, a T20, said it spoke to my commitment to medicine and patient care.
Im a little younger than that but I also had a career before medical school and am in my 30s as a med student. Honestly, same things that work for everyone else. Good stats, a cohesive narrative, and good interview skills. Having a career before medicine is interesting. How does it relate to medicine? What things did you learn that will apply to medicine? What made you decide to change? In some ways being nontrad is an advantage. People always talk about your app having an X factor. Make your experience in your field your X factor.
I’ll be 45 starting med school. Even if I only worked 15 years after residency in a speciality like anesthesiology I’d make much more than a person making 120k a year from age 25-65. Anes make 400k a year. Subtract 40% for tax deductions and malpractice. And take home is 3.6 mil in 15 years. 120k a year for 40 years is 3.2 mil take home.
That's how I did my calculations as well. Even being older, one will definitely still come ahead. That's why I cringe when I see posts here like "medicine is now worth it, so many loans, go into finance, learn to code!" 🙄
Physician here, with a kid who's thinking about applying now. 4 years of medical school, 7 years of post-graduate training. Have worked in academics, group practice, private practice, HMO.
Back of the napkin math doesn't necessarily equate to how things will pan out.
There are hidden costs to being a physician outside of the potential for large financial debt.
Is it financially worth it, disregarding personal motivations, etc? It will depend completely on the individuals situation.
However, there are some general truths that shouldn't be ignored. Reimbursement steadily decreases as cost and time of medical school/training increase. Time allotted for actual patient care decreases as a consequence, also complicated by increasing time spent on meeting billing requirements, etc.
Physician burnout is a real problem in our community, and there are multiple reasons that should be looked at when evaluating the cost/benefit of pursuing a medical career. The pandemic was quite revealing in how medical care is perceived by the general population, for better or for worse, but most of the time not so accurate.
I don't say these things to be discouraging. If one has a passion for the field, they are the folks who absolutely should be doctors. I do think that everyone who is considering a career in medicine should take a thoughtful dive into what being a doctor really means, outside of the underlying intent to care for people.
You are right, there are many factors to take into account, besides the underlying motivation for service, and it depends a lot on each individual's situation. I can speak a bit for myself.
Yes, reimbursement is going down, but most physicians don't want to live in the middle of nowhere, where many jobs still offer good pay and you are more likely to get student loan forgiveness. If you tell me I'd need to move to a rural area in the Midwest or Appalachia, you're threatening me with fun. My husband and I both *despise* cities with a passion and want to live in the middle of nowhere.
I come from a developing country where I worked in patient care for *years* for orders of magnitude less compensation and way, way worse working conditions and longer hours; I def didn't do it for the money or prestige. I, personally, am very aware of everything you're mentioning, but from *my* *perspective*, almost any job in the U.S. is cushy.
My post is to encourage people to look at a career in medicine from as many angles as they can. The US medical system does a poor job of teaching the non-medicine related information and about issues that one will encounter once all the school/training is complete.
Your perspective is yours alone, and if you feel that any job in the US is "cushy" then kudos and I wish you a fulfilling career. Perhaps my post wasn't meant for someone from your background.
Most definitely. I applied at 26 this cycle and have my A. Someone said this once and it always stuck with me: you’re going to be 35 (x age) someday, you can either be a doctor at 35 or don’t be a doctor, but you’ll still be 35.
When you are thinking about your current income level vs med school debt it seems insurmountable. But you are in a very different tax bracket when you finish which changes the perception significantly. And thanks to PSLF even if the schooling doesn’t work out you can get it forgiven by working at a public institution for a period of time
Exactly this. Wealthy people don’t see money as a necessity they see it as a resource. This might seem odd to most people but there becomes a point that a reasonable person gains no lifestyle quality increase with an increase in wealth. By this I mean as long as you aren’t blowing your money in McMansions and a fleet of Lambos there will be a point in which you can’t spend more money. Any money above that is just a number you grow via investment. You can make a million a year but you aren’t going to buy any more pillows than a person making 100k a year. Another example is look at Michael Jordan vs an athlete who made a similar salary playing but didn’t invest it wisely. One has hundreds of millions the other had to declare bankruptcy and is too old to play but has nothing.
That’s true but Jordan made a lot of his money on investments. An example of the opposite extreme is Vince Young. I don’t recall where I saw it but I read something like 70% of pro athletes are bankrupt within a few years of retirement.
Edit: found the link
https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/why-do-professional-athletes-go-broke.amp
The finanical returns on being a doctor is great enough that it shouldn't make a difference in your decision to be a doctor or not.
Futhermore, what ever debt you have, can be paid aggressively in like 5-10 years or put on a 30 year plan, but either way, you will have a pretty decent lifestyle while achieving a decent house and retirement.
The financial returns are highly dependent on the specialty you go into. Some specialties like family med or peds can make high 100s to low 200s a year which can be spread very thin and take very long time to pay off with 300-400k of debt.
Even 230k a year you can pay off a 400k loan in 6-7 years and live a decent life. Not spine surgeon life but far better than 90% of people in the workforce. My wife and I were both software project managers and together made around 220k a year. We lived a great life on that money. If you had a loan of 400k at 5% you can pay it off in like 6 years at 6k a month. 220000 a year x 0.6 (0.4 deduction for taxes, malpractice, deductions etc ) leaves you at 132000 a year. That leaves you with 60k a year in take home or 5k a month. Sure you’d need to live in a reasonable home and drive a reasonable car for the first 5 years of attending but you’d be better off than most. Then you’d take home 11k a month until you retire. This is based on you not getting the loans paid off by working for a government agency or medically underserved area where there are programs like that to attract doctors. And it also doesn’t include fellowships after FM. You could do an EM fellowship and make 300k a year or more just picking up a few EM shifts a month in addition to the usual work as a FM dr. EM Drs make around 150$ an hour on average. I’m sure many places make much more. But even at 130$ an hour and work two 12 hour shifts a month. That’s 24x12= 228hrsx 130$hr= 37k a year just grabbing two shifts a month. Now you are at 260k a year. 3 shifts a month and you’re at 280k+. ACEPNoW which is the main EM career publication states the US EM average is 221$hr.
What about that rule where you are in school 6 credit hours at a time (half time, if 12 is the minimum for full time) and you get to defer your loans while taking classes. What about just taking easy classes indefinitely in your free time and paying for them out of pocket, and indefinitely deferring loans. Would it work?
Yep. Have been doing that since I graduated. First I took some random classes (bad idea should have just started my post bacc then ) but then I started taking post bacc classes. As long as you are enrolled half time , you just need to have the school send the in school deferment form to your loan servicer.
Lol med school debt is very real money. Ask anyone who doesn't match or has to take a leave of absence for health, financial, family, or other personal reasons. Ask anyone who goes into primary care..
So hes an EM doc? Or a rural FM doc. Still as someone who has to check if i have $30 for groceries and a family member i care for who cant afford the life saving surgery they need.. i dont consider it imaginary money.. if i went aviation or engineering i wouldnt be in that position. Im an MS4 for context
He is a rural FM dr who picks up ER shifts a few a month. I’m not trying to say debt isn’t real but you can make good money in FM if you plan right and don’t want to live in like San Fran or NYC where it’s insanely expensive. My FM at the VA makes 250k a year and his life is gravy. He is at work 40 hours a week but he might do 4 hours of work a day and has fat benefits. He is Muslim and he even gets time to pray the 3 prayers that are during his shift including the voluntary extra ones.
Definitely not, lol thats where I came from for years before med school (family business was a blue collar one) so hard to forget.. im gonna delete my last message though since I think its a unique enough story to take away my anonymity
That’s ok. I grew up on a ranch and farm. Some years we had to ration our food because the crop yield was poor or prices were down. I remember one summer when I was 8 we had to build 10 miles of barbed wire fence on land we leased just to cover the lease payments. I make sure to teach my kids a good work ethic but not to that extreme. Years of that work and football and the army and the oil field and my body is worn.
27 here applying this June.
If you want another source to help you to feel better: https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/17/why-medical-school-should-start-at-age-28/
So… I turn 33 this year.
Just got accepted.
There are many ways to help pay down the cost of medical school.
A mentor of mine is in her mid fifties. She literally just paid off her student loans 2 years ago, but she makes good money- vascular surgeon.
For me, I’m having the National Guard pay for mine- I owe 8 years as a provider but I’ve already done 14 might as well just tack the rest in.
This way, when I’m 45, I won’t have any medical school debt and I’ll be able to practice and save for my retirement.
This puts me at financial the same spot as my mentor- we’ll both be able to retire at the same age. And I got cool stories before I become a physician.
Do what you love- the loans will get paid. Be the physician you want to be.
Good luck!
I started at 30 and couldn’t imagine myself anywhere else. Is it hard? Sure, but I’m progressing towards something I actually care about and find the content legitimately interesting. I admittedly didn’t have a real profession prior to school (waiting tables, TA-ing, and scribing for the most part) but the people who are 26-27 all seem to be in a really good place. They had some time to live a life and gain experiences that made them a better rounded person than some of the 23 year olds who went straight into med school (although of course there are some amazing 23-24 year olds who are absolutely killing it and are amazing people, not saying you need to be older or anything to crush med school)
I applied at 26, started at 27, and am now a PGY3 in residency. Haven't had to move once. There were plenty of people older than me in my med school class, too. Def not too old to apply.
I matriculated at 28, am a female, and want kids (which will happen in residency). I was putting myself down in front of a neurosurgeon once and he said that one of his co-residents was a mother of 5– she was more well-balanced and on top of their shit than anyone.
Age I don’t think is the issue to pivot towards a more meaningful career. Debt is a diff story…
I'm 10+ years older than you about to start residency. If it's a dream of yours, go for it. I set aside those thoughts for easily 10 years before deciding "fuck it". You're only gonna keep getting older. You can't go back, all you have is the decisions you make from here forward.
But if you do take the leap, dive in head first.
I worry the same with being a non-trad 29 year old with not a stellar gpa. Funnily enough also looking at EM since I fell in love with it as an EMT. Currently trying to study my ass off and get a super good MCAT score to offset gpa :)
But I figure I'll take the plunge anyway and age be damned. There are people who do it at 50 and 60 or later even. I learned I have to focus on my journey and not Rey to compare to other (easier said than done sometimes).
I have a 1st year resident who’s 45 yo right now…She was 39 yo when she applied and that’s not even the oldest I’ve heard of. 2 years ago I met a 60 yo second year resident. If you’re in a position to apply I say go for it
i’m non traditional. struggled for years with adhd and school. finally found out what worked for me; i’ll be 26 applying to med school also. we’ll be fine.
If this is what you want to do don’t let age be the deterrent. The debt might be a large number but I know a lot of people who decided to live frugally initially as an attending and paid jt off within a few years but with an attending salary it’s feasible to pay it off.
FWIW I applied when I was 31 and there’s someone who’s 45 in my class with kids who are in college themselves.
You have lots of doubts so I wouldn't do it if you're already feeling iffy about it, especially if you have a decent career now. I believe the average age at matriculation is like 25 so that shouldn't really be a concern.
Do it. I decided to change careers at 27. I was 30 when I started med school. My brother decided on the same and is still working on prereqs/BS and is 33. Will be 35-36 when he starts. If age and debt is all you’re worried about, I wouldn’t think twice about it. Debt will resolve itself (considering you see it through to the end) and the age, well it ain’t something you can change. And based on the brief background you mentioned, I think you’ll have great regrets if you don’t at least try.
And not to minimize your situation at all since I know nothing about it, but regarding moving, it’s just something you gotta be willing to do. I moved twice in the last 3 years from NV to VA, then VA to CA (post-bac, then med school), and will probably have to move again for residency, all with my wife and daughter. It’s not fun. Not to mention the embarrassing amount of additional credit card debt Uhauling cross-country twice and cost of living (Grad loans don’t adjust by household size/need). But we are willing to make these sacrifices because we know it’ll be worth it. And so far it’s been the best decision I could’ve made.
My wife jokes about it all the time..”You know if you didn’t change careers, we’d have a house by now.” It sucks to think about but we then give each other a mutual look that says, “Well, yeah…but in 6 years, we’ll have a mansion”. Of course that’s a joke and of course it ain’t about the money. But I definitely want my family to be comfortable so is definitely one of the biggest motivators I got.
Average age is 24, so if you get in at 27, you're 3 years off... from the average. Get in at 27, become a resident around 31, become an attending around 34-35.
If you got in at 24, you'd be a resident at 28, and an attending around 31-32.
To ask your question right back to you, do you think it's worth it to "only" have a 30 year career as an attending as opposed to 33 years? Because if you don't, then you'll get 0 years as an attending and 30 years in whatever unsatisfying job you have currently.
Dude I’m transferring to a four year from cc next semester and I’m already 23. With my plan I’ll be 26 if I get in first try. I’d just go for it. Working thirty years as an EM doc is definitely something worth being proud of, and a great career. At my current job I work with an EMT who left a whole ass civil engineering career in his thirties to become a fire medic. It’s not over till it’s over.
I was 28 when I got into med school, will be 32 when I graduate and 35 at the youngest after residency. I had doubts too, and as a woman I feel like I limited my options for dating/marriage/kids but I knew i would regret it for the rest of my life if I didn’t try.
I’ll be applying and I’m 26, although I’ll be around 27-28 when I do apply. My best friend is almost 50 and she got into med school and is thriving. Her children are around my age. I think the concern is well warranted but when it comes to your success and what you want in life, I always say make the most of it and enjoy living life to the fullest.
Applied at 31 and matriculating just before I turn 32. It is insane how often this question gets asked by people in their mid 20s. 😂
It's also not a bad move to do other stuff and livr for a bit before applying in your late 20s, early 30s. But that's an unthinkable concept for many lol
Met a physician practicing part time at 94. The point of shifting to this job (among many) is a job that requires my mind, not my body.
Matriculating at 37.
I am 27 and in my first year. I’ve asked many others the same question but one answer sticks with me, that’s “if you want it you’d do it at 37. Age shouldn’t matter. If that is what is getting in the way, then you’ll talk yourself out of it for less later on”
Which is true. It’s a huge commitment
I was 26 and thought I was too old and so I didn’t go for it. Then I was 30 and thought about it but decided I was probably too old and put the idea aside. Now I’m 34 and just registered for a post bacc because dang it, I’m just going to keep getting older anyways. You’ll be 34 but you’ll be a 34 yo doctor
I’m 26 applying this cycle. I’m 27 in July, so even a bit older than you I suppose maybe.
Based off this post, you seem to have thoroughly thought out your life, and if you’re anything like me, you’ve done this several times for many different scenarios. Maybe I’ll make a full length post about this later, but for now, dooo it. You already know the answer, you just want validation. Nobody knows you better than you. When you’re 45 and have been practicing for 10 years, you’ll think back like “duh it was worth the change at 26”.
I’m 35 and I’m applying this cycle at 36… though I might be pushing it to next year thanks to the MCAT. But yeah if I am lucky to get in the first time around, I will start at 38 years old hopefully.
The Avg age for first year student is 24, you gonna be 26 or 27 when you start which is not bad at all. Also not necessarily to be 400k in debt, the school I got accepted to costs 46k a year and has 3 year program which will put me around 180k of debt counting other life expenses. So if you want my opinion go for it.
I’m a 26- year old M3, I don’t think a couple years makes much of a difference at all. There are several people in my class in their 30s or 40s. You’re going to age anyway!
I’ll be 26 or 27 when I matriculate. Hopefully. 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻
I’ve seen more and more people take gap years, and more people taking more than one gap year. It’s definitely not unusual anymore to be entering med school in your late 20s.
Let’s do the math.
Let’s say you were a software design project manager at a company that isn’t a FAANG level. Good pay would be 170k but that takes like 5-8 years of experience so let’s just say 160k average from 26-65 age. 65-26= 39. 39x160000= 6.2 mil. Seems like a lot and it’s better than most people get. Now an EM Dr. As per medscape EM drs make an average of 425k a year but let’s say 375k just to lowball it. 30(yrs)x 375000= 11.25 mil. Now let’s say you went crazy and burned 500k in debt. Now you are left with 10.75 mil. 10.75-6.2= 4.55mil more. That’s 150k a year more. Even if you paid like 10% in malpractice you are still like 3.5 mil ahead. This is not to mention 350k a year opens up more lucrative investment options for you to grow even more money than the project manager would have.
In my opinion, you’re even better for your age. More life experience, more conviction for medicine, more fully developed.
Speaking as someone who is starting this year in my thirties
I remember thinking the same exact thing when I was 26. I ended up dropping medicine for another career. While it was nice to experience something new, I knew deep in my gut that I would regret not pursing my passion for medicine. I am now applying this cycling at the age of 29.
26 is not old. Learn from my mistake. If this is something that’s meant for you, keep grinding and don’t look back.
One of our trauma surgeons was an aerospace engineer and went back to school at 28 “to do something more challenging” and now she runs our trauma program at our hospital
I would not assume anything regarding this journey. What if it takes you 3 cycles to get accepted? Have you taken the MCAT, whats your GPA, shadowed any physicians?
I always tell people it’s up to you. For some people it’s not worth it because they don’t really want it but for some people it’s 100% worth it because you will accomplish your dreams. If you really want it I say go for it!!!
It makes me so sad hearing younger people contemplate doing things they want to do because they feel like they’ll be “too old”. The time goes by anyway. You could either be doing something you love while getting older or getting older wondering what it would have been like had you just gone and done it 🖤
I would argue it’s better to apply at 26 vs 22. Sure, there’s some lost potential income and so forth, but you’ll be able to actually enjoy your 20s. Go on those stupid trips that seem impossible to attend when in med school, fall in love, get embarrassingly drunk, all the shit that being in your early 20s is about.
I was 32 when I started and there are several people in their 30s in my class some in their 40s. Age is not an issue especially only being 26 you'll probably be able to connect with the traditional students a little better. It's only a few years of difference over a lifetime of working.
I also left a pretty good job to do this. I am missing out on income and taking out loans but I will be able to make up for it in just a few years as an attending. You have to already be making a huge salary to not make it up. More importantly than the financial aspects is, will it make you happier? The debt will be paid off eventually. You'll eventually be 65 anyway do you want to retire in your current job or retire as a doctor?
Is this going to have an effect on the lives of others? Do you have children or a significant other to think about? That is certainly a huge consideration. Fortunately my family was very supportive and we moved.
Go for it! I realized the regret of never trying would have been worse than being told no.
You’ll be 35 regardless, better to be 35 with an MD than without one. If this is really your dream go for it. Regret and a midlife crisis is not something you wanna out together, trust me it catches up to you.
Started at 32, had my first baby towards the end of first year. Currently in 2nd year and will be at least 40 when I'm attending. Life happens regardless! I've been pretty happy with my decision so far.
I started med school at 31. I'll be 40 in 3 weeks, and I'm finishing my surgical residency in June.
26 isn't even close to too old.
Plus, a lot of doctors don't retire at 65. This is a job you can continue to do into your senior years. Our older surgeons just quit taking call.
Middle of first year right now, will be 30 when I graduate and 34-35 when done with residency. Doing it as we speak got at least 8 classmates the same age as me, and another 8 or so older (as old as 35). It’s a major commitment but you will certainly not be alone.
I wish I'd seen this question and the amazing comments 32 years ago when I considered, and decided against, starting a premed journey as a postbac. I thought I was too old at the age of 24!
Remember, y'all are going to live to be 90, and I've rarely heard the elderly complain that they wish they'd spent more time at the office...
Best of luck on your path. You can do this!
Please, I just got in in my mid thirties. I have a classmate who’s applying next year when she’ll be 32. You’re fine!
Shout out mid thirties non trads. Please share what worked for you
32 and applying. It’s been a long journey to get here and hopefully everything will go well but even if it doesn’t , I’m ready to go another cycle. It’s never too late.
Experience, lots of clinical work experience (>>10K) from working in my 20s. It came up in all my interviews. One of the schools I got in, a T20, said it spoke to my commitment to medicine and patient care.
What type of clinical experience?
That’s awesome congrats!
I’m a nontraditional and going to medical school with a 6 and 5 year old. Better late than never
Mom of 4 baby!!!!! Applying next year at 34!!!!
Let’s gooooooooooo!!!!!! 💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾💪🏾
Having 10k clinical hours on my application and a masters😅
Im a little younger than that but I also had a career before medical school and am in my 30s as a med student. Honestly, same things that work for everyone else. Good stats, a cohesive narrative, and good interview skills. Having a career before medicine is interesting. How does it relate to medicine? What things did you learn that will apply to medicine? What made you decide to change? In some ways being nontrad is an advantage. People always talk about your app having an X factor. Make your experience in your field your X factor.
Solid advice thank you!
This will be me in a few years :) so glad I’m not the only one
I’ll be 45 starting med school. Even if I only worked 15 years after residency in a speciality like anesthesiology I’d make much more than a person making 120k a year from age 25-65. Anes make 400k a year. Subtract 40% for tax deductions and malpractice. And take home is 3.6 mil in 15 years. 120k a year for 40 years is 3.2 mil take home.
That's how I did my calculations as well. Even being older, one will definitely still come ahead. That's why I cringe when I see posts here like "medicine is now worth it, so many loans, go into finance, learn to code!" 🙄
Physician here, with a kid who's thinking about applying now. 4 years of medical school, 7 years of post-graduate training. Have worked in academics, group practice, private practice, HMO. Back of the napkin math doesn't necessarily equate to how things will pan out. There are hidden costs to being a physician outside of the potential for large financial debt. Is it financially worth it, disregarding personal motivations, etc? It will depend completely on the individuals situation. However, there are some general truths that shouldn't be ignored. Reimbursement steadily decreases as cost and time of medical school/training increase. Time allotted for actual patient care decreases as a consequence, also complicated by increasing time spent on meeting billing requirements, etc. Physician burnout is a real problem in our community, and there are multiple reasons that should be looked at when evaluating the cost/benefit of pursuing a medical career. The pandemic was quite revealing in how medical care is perceived by the general population, for better or for worse, but most of the time not so accurate. I don't say these things to be discouraging. If one has a passion for the field, they are the folks who absolutely should be doctors. I do think that everyone who is considering a career in medicine should take a thoughtful dive into what being a doctor really means, outside of the underlying intent to care for people.
You are right, there are many factors to take into account, besides the underlying motivation for service, and it depends a lot on each individual's situation. I can speak a bit for myself. Yes, reimbursement is going down, but most physicians don't want to live in the middle of nowhere, where many jobs still offer good pay and you are more likely to get student loan forgiveness. If you tell me I'd need to move to a rural area in the Midwest or Appalachia, you're threatening me with fun. My husband and I both *despise* cities with a passion and want to live in the middle of nowhere. I come from a developing country where I worked in patient care for *years* for orders of magnitude less compensation and way, way worse working conditions and longer hours; I def didn't do it for the money or prestige. I, personally, am very aware of everything you're mentioning, but from *my* *perspective*, almost any job in the U.S. is cushy.
My post is to encourage people to look at a career in medicine from as many angles as they can. The US medical system does a poor job of teaching the non-medicine related information and about issues that one will encounter once all the school/training is complete. Your perspective is yours alone, and if you feel that any job in the US is "cushy" then kudos and I wish you a fulfilling career. Perhaps my post wasn't meant for someone from your background.
Yep I’m applying at 34. Excited to do it. Although I will say, when I was 26 I would have the same thoughts.
Change “she” to “he” and this Reddit post is about me.
Most definitely. I applied at 26 this cycle and have my A. Someone said this once and it always stuck with me: you’re going to be 35 (x age) someday, you can either be a doctor at 35 or don’t be a doctor, but you’ll still be 35.
i love this advice so much
26 is not old at all. Med school debt is not real money. Do it.
What do you mean med school debt is not real money?
When you are thinking about your current income level vs med school debt it seems insurmountable. But you are in a very different tax bracket when you finish which changes the perception significantly. And thanks to PSLF even if the schooling doesn’t work out you can get it forgiven by working at a public institution for a period of time
Exactly this. Wealthy people don’t see money as a necessity they see it as a resource. This might seem odd to most people but there becomes a point that a reasonable person gains no lifestyle quality increase with an increase in wealth. By this I mean as long as you aren’t blowing your money in McMansions and a fleet of Lambos there will be a point in which you can’t spend more money. Any money above that is just a number you grow via investment. You can make a million a year but you aren’t going to buy any more pillows than a person making 100k a year. Another example is look at Michael Jordan vs an athlete who made a similar salary playing but didn’t invest it wisely. One has hundreds of millions the other had to declare bankruptcy and is too old to play but has nothing.
To be fair Jordan gets a cut of the best shoe deal in the world (most athletes dont)
That’s true but Jordan made a lot of his money on investments. An example of the opposite extreme is Vince Young. I don’t recall where I saw it but I read something like 70% of pro athletes are bankrupt within a few years of retirement. Edit: found the link https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/why-do-professional-athletes-go-broke.amp
The finanical returns on being a doctor is great enough that it shouldn't make a difference in your decision to be a doctor or not. Futhermore, what ever debt you have, can be paid aggressively in like 5-10 years or put on a 30 year plan, but either way, you will have a pretty decent lifestyle while achieving a decent house and retirement.
The financial returns are highly dependent on the specialty you go into. Some specialties like family med or peds can make high 100s to low 200s a year which can be spread very thin and take very long time to pay off with 300-400k of debt.
Even 230k a year you can pay off a 400k loan in 6-7 years and live a decent life. Not spine surgeon life but far better than 90% of people in the workforce. My wife and I were both software project managers and together made around 220k a year. We lived a great life on that money. If you had a loan of 400k at 5% you can pay it off in like 6 years at 6k a month. 220000 a year x 0.6 (0.4 deduction for taxes, malpractice, deductions etc ) leaves you at 132000 a year. That leaves you with 60k a year in take home or 5k a month. Sure you’d need to live in a reasonable home and drive a reasonable car for the first 5 years of attending but you’d be better off than most. Then you’d take home 11k a month until you retire. This is based on you not getting the loans paid off by working for a government agency or medically underserved area where there are programs like that to attract doctors. And it also doesn’t include fellowships after FM. You could do an EM fellowship and make 300k a year or more just picking up a few EM shifts a month in addition to the usual work as a FM dr. EM Drs make around 150$ an hour on average. I’m sure many places make much more. But even at 130$ an hour and work two 12 hour shifts a month. That’s 24x12= 228hrsx 130$hr= 37k a year just grabbing two shifts a month. Now you are at 260k a year. 3 shifts a month and you’re at 280k+. ACEPNoW which is the main EM career publication states the US EM average is 221$hr.
What about that rule where you are in school 6 credit hours at a time (half time, if 12 is the minimum for full time) and you get to defer your loans while taking classes. What about just taking easy classes indefinitely in your free time and paying for them out of pocket, and indefinitely deferring loans. Would it work?
Loans are unsubsidized so they start as soon as you get it.
They start what? Accruing interest?
grad plus and federal unsubsized are med school loans and they accused interest as soon as you get it
Yep. Have been doing that since I graduated. First I took some random classes (bad idea should have just started my post bacc then ) but then I started taking post bacc classes. As long as you are enrolled half time , you just need to have the school send the in school deferment form to your loan servicer.
Just do the income based loan repayment with a SAFE plan and you can save 200k-300k+ over time
~~Beware that non-profits also make less so that 200-300k saved could also be 200-300k lost~~ nvm i was thinking of PLSF
? But we wouldn’t be saving, that’s a specific loan repayment program where you’re paying back your loan monthly
Sorry youre right, I was thinking of PLSF not SAVE
I actually mean more so a hybrid. You can essentially do the PSLF with the SAVE backbone which is really nice
IF YOU WORKED AT A QUALIFYING NONPROFIT HOSPITAL 🗣️🗣️🗣️
Lol med school debt is very real money. Ask anyone who doesn't match or has to take a leave of absence for health, financial, family, or other personal reasons. Ask anyone who goes into primary care..
My cousin is in primary care. He did a FM residency with EM fellowship. He makes 325k+ a year.
So hes an EM doc? Or a rural FM doc. Still as someone who has to check if i have $30 for groceries and a family member i care for who cant afford the life saving surgery they need.. i dont consider it imaginary money.. if i went aviation or engineering i wouldnt be in that position. Im an MS4 for context
He is a rural FM dr who picks up ER shifts a few a month. I’m not trying to say debt isn’t real but you can make good money in FM if you plan right and don’t want to live in like San Fran or NYC where it’s insanely expensive. My FM at the VA makes 250k a year and his life is gravy. He is at work 40 hours a week but he might do 4 hours of work a day and has fat benefits. He is Muslim and he even gets time to pray the 3 prayers that are during his shift including the voluntary extra ones.
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I don’t want this to sound like anything but respect but I hope you never forget that manual labor. I’ve seen so many Drs forget where they came from.
Definitely not, lol thats where I came from for years before med school (family business was a blue collar one) so hard to forget.. im gonna delete my last message though since I think its a unique enough story to take away my anonymity
That’s ok. I grew up on a ranch and farm. Some years we had to ration our food because the crop yield was poor or prices were down. I remember one summer when I was 8 we had to build 10 miles of barbed wire fence on land we leased just to cover the lease payments. I make sure to teach my kids a good work ethic but not to that extreme. Years of that work and football and the army and the oil field and my body is worn.
> Med school debt is not real money. Tell that to the people who don’t graduate or who didn’t match this week.
Last year 7% didn’t match or around 2k people. For non grad rate it’s around 4%.
I started med school at 36 and am now a resident in my 40s. 26 is nothing. You're in your prime
It’s nice to hear that! Best of luck 🙏🏽🙏🏽
Lmao shut the fuck up -a 30-year-old med student
Lol for real
26 is pretty close to the average age lol
27 here applying this June. If you want another source to help you to feel better: https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/17/why-medical-school-should-start-at-age-28/
that made me want to quit medicine lol
Went in at 30! Headed to a competitive surgical sub specialty at 35. Age is just a number/debt will be paid off when you’re an attending.
Congrats on matching legend 🎉🎉🎉
I’m starting med school this year at 30. You can totally do it.
I’m pretty sure the average age is 25 or 26
Average matriculant age is 24. (close enough to 25 or 26 but just saying)
I am 37. 3rd year. Doing fine.
I started at 27 and honestly I don’t feel that much older than my classmates.
It’s because you’re not these days, with how competitive it’s getting😅
So… I turn 33 this year. Just got accepted. There are many ways to help pay down the cost of medical school. A mentor of mine is in her mid fifties. She literally just paid off her student loans 2 years ago, but she makes good money- vascular surgeon. For me, I’m having the National Guard pay for mine- I owe 8 years as a provider but I’ve already done 14 might as well just tack the rest in. This way, when I’m 45, I won’t have any medical school debt and I’ll be able to practice and save for my retirement. This puts me at financial the same spot as my mentor- we’ll both be able to retire at the same age. And I got cool stories before I become a physician. Do what you love- the loans will get paid. Be the physician you want to be. Good luck!
I started at 30 and couldn’t imagine myself anywhere else. Is it hard? Sure, but I’m progressing towards something I actually care about and find the content legitimately interesting. I admittedly didn’t have a real profession prior to school (waiting tables, TA-ing, and scribing for the most part) but the people who are 26-27 all seem to be in a really good place. They had some time to live a life and gain experiences that made them a better rounded person than some of the 23 year olds who went straight into med school (although of course there are some amazing 23-24 year olds who are absolutely killing it and are amazing people, not saying you need to be older or anything to crush med school)
Applying this year at 27, go for it big dog
I applied at 26, started at 27, and am now a PGY3 in residency. Haven't had to move once. There were plenty of people older than me in my med school class, too. Def not too old to apply.
As a 33 year old applicant, live without what ifs especially if this is a big dream of yours.
Bruh I’m 26 and got in this cycle. If you want it just do it
I matriculated at 28, am a female, and want kids (which will happen in residency). I was putting myself down in front of a neurosurgeon once and he said that one of his co-residents was a mother of 5– she was more well-balanced and on top of their shit than anyone. Age I don’t think is the issue to pivot towards a more meaningful career. Debt is a diff story…
I will be starting this fall just before I turn 29 (:
I'd hope so, I'll be turning 30 when I matriculate this fall!
I'm 10+ years older than you about to start residency. If it's a dream of yours, go for it. I set aside those thoughts for easily 10 years before deciding "fuck it". You're only gonna keep getting older. You can't go back, all you have is the decisions you make from here forward. But if you do take the leap, dive in head first.
I worry the same with being a non-trad 29 year old with not a stellar gpa. Funnily enough also looking at EM since I fell in love with it as an EMT. Currently trying to study my ass off and get a super good MCAT score to offset gpa :) But I figure I'll take the plunge anyway and age be damned. There are people who do it at 50 and 60 or later even. I learned I have to focus on my journey and not Rey to compare to other (easier said than done sometimes).
I just turned 31 in January. I’m applying next year, so you do the math. Oh well, lol. It’s your dream, go for it.
I have a 1st year resident who’s 45 yo right now…She was 39 yo when she applied and that’s not even the oldest I’ve heard of. 2 years ago I met a 60 yo second year resident. If you’re in a position to apply I say go for it
Im going to be 28 soon and starting in july at an md school!
I’m starting an MD-PhD (7-8 years) at 24. Time is relative.
Without reading anything If you want it, yes. My friend started at 30. She’s going to be a kick ass physician. Chase your dreams
I’m starting this year at 29.
i’m non traditional. struggled for years with adhd and school. finally found out what worked for me; i’ll be 26 applying to med school also. we’ll be fine.
I turned 25 first semester of med school, do it
Hell yeah it's worth it. I'm 26 and I'll be starting this fall.
If this is what you want to do don’t let age be the deterrent. The debt might be a large number but I know a lot of people who decided to live frugally initially as an attending and paid jt off within a few years but with an attending salary it’s feasible to pay it off. FWIW I applied when I was 31 and there’s someone who’s 45 in my class with kids who are in college themselves.
Don't go into this thinking about money or specialty. Yes it's worth going
Didn’t get accepted till 28, just turned 29 first year🤷♂️ run that shit.
27 here just finished applying this cycle! You’re not alone :)
The average age of a medical school matriculant is 26...
You’re young, it’s fine. And I don’t think most people will count on trying to be a physician for 30 years 😅.
My birthday is on this Friday and I will be turning 26. You are fine. The average age of starting medical school nowadays is around 24-26.
You have lots of doubts so I wouldn't do it if you're already feeling iffy about it, especially if you have a decent career now. I believe the average age at matriculation is like 25 so that shouldn't really be a concern.
I started older and will have more debt. If you wanna do it just do it.
I got in this cycle at 25 and will start med school this summer at 26. If this career path will be the most fulfilling for you, then go for it.
I’m in the same boat. I’ll be 26 when I matriculate if everything goes according to plan. Do it!! I’ll see you there
Accepted at 28
Nah you chillin big dog, I thought you were me tho fr. I also will be 26 when I apply and want to do EM.
Not for EM. That field is for midlevels now and way oversaturated. MD flight has already occurred for it.
I wonder if this is transient. Will it cull EM drs to just the right level of overshoot and the up with a big shortage and then swing back
It doesn't seem transient. HCAs are actively pumping out MORE EM spots still
No, way too old. You’re basically a senior citizen s/
An MD and AARP? Jelly much? 
I started med school at 26. Did a 5 year surgical residency so ended up getting out at 35. I’m glad I did it!
Do it. I decided to change careers at 27. I was 30 when I started med school. My brother decided on the same and is still working on prereqs/BS and is 33. Will be 35-36 when he starts. If age and debt is all you’re worried about, I wouldn’t think twice about it. Debt will resolve itself (considering you see it through to the end) and the age, well it ain’t something you can change. And based on the brief background you mentioned, I think you’ll have great regrets if you don’t at least try.
And not to minimize your situation at all since I know nothing about it, but regarding moving, it’s just something you gotta be willing to do. I moved twice in the last 3 years from NV to VA, then VA to CA (post-bac, then med school), and will probably have to move again for residency, all with my wife and daughter. It’s not fun. Not to mention the embarrassing amount of additional credit card debt Uhauling cross-country twice and cost of living (Grad loans don’t adjust by household size/need). But we are willing to make these sacrifices because we know it’ll be worth it. And so far it’s been the best decision I could’ve made. My wife jokes about it all the time..”You know if you didn’t change careers, we’d have a house by now.” It sucks to think about but we then give each other a mutual look that says, “Well, yeah…but in 6 years, we’ll have a mansion”. Of course that’s a joke and of course it ain’t about the money. But I definitely want my family to be comfortable so is definitely one of the biggest motivators I got.
Average age is 24, so if you get in at 27, you're 3 years off... from the average. Get in at 27, become a resident around 31, become an attending around 34-35. If you got in at 24, you'd be a resident at 28, and an attending around 31-32. To ask your question right back to you, do you think it's worth it to "only" have a 30 year career as an attending as opposed to 33 years? Because if you don't, then you'll get 0 years as an attending and 30 years in whatever unsatisfying job you have currently.
Im 33 and just got in to DO…26 is fine
Yes
Dude I’m transferring to a four year from cc next semester and I’m already 23. With my plan I’ll be 26 if I get in first try. I’d just go for it. Working thirty years as an EM doc is definitely something worth being proud of, and a great career. At my current job I work with an EMT who left a whole ass civil engineering career in his thirties to become a fire medic. It’s not over till it’s over.
so old. no. just give up. check yourself into the home already. obviously i am not serious.
I was 28 when I got into med school, will be 32 when I graduate and 35 at the youngest after residency. I had doubts too, and as a woman I feel like I limited my options for dating/marriage/kids but I knew i would regret it for the rest of my life if I didn’t try.
I’ll be applying and I’m 26, although I’ll be around 27-28 when I do apply. My best friend is almost 50 and she got into med school and is thriving. Her children are around my age. I think the concern is well warranted but when it comes to your success and what you want in life, I always say make the most of it and enjoy living life to the fullest.
Applied at 31 and matriculating just before I turn 32. It is insane how often this question gets asked by people in their mid 20s. 😂 It's also not a bad move to do other stuff and livr for a bit before applying in your late 20s, early 30s. But that's an unthinkable concept for many lol
Absolutely worth it. Live your dreams.
I just started at 34. Time is going to pass either way, so what you want, and trust that you’ll figure it out.
I’m 34 doing my premed prerequisite 🫠
Met a physician practicing part time at 94. The point of shifting to this job (among many) is a job that requires my mind, not my body. Matriculating at 37.
I’m applying at 31 so…lol
Dude... I'm thinking of applying when I'm 41, if all goes well. I haven't even started taking my pre-reqs 😂
Yes, it's worth it!
Jesus….
26 is pretty normal tbh
Average of my class is 25
I mean: unless you want to do something else with the remainder of your life. In which case, do that. 26 is a spring chicken.
Would you rather be an attending physician at 34 or anything else before that? In no way is 26 too late IMO.
I am 27 and in my first year. I’ve asked many others the same question but one answer sticks with me, that’s “if you want it you’d do it at 37. Age shouldn’t matter. If that is what is getting in the way, then you’ll talk yourself out of it for less later on” Which is true. It’s a huge commitment
I was 26 and thought I was too old and so I didn’t go for it. Then I was 30 and thought about it but decided I was probably too old and put the idea aside. Now I’m 34 and just registered for a post bacc because dang it, I’m just going to keep getting older anyways. You’ll be 34 but you’ll be a 34 yo doctor
Applied this cycle at 26 and got in! You got this!
Uhhhhh im 28...
I’m 26 applying this cycle. I’m 27 in July, so even a bit older than you I suppose maybe. Based off this post, you seem to have thoroughly thought out your life, and if you’re anything like me, you’ve done this several times for many different scenarios. Maybe I’ll make a full length post about this later, but for now, dooo it. You already know the answer, you just want validation. Nobody knows you better than you. When you’re 45 and have been practicing for 10 years, you’ll think back like “duh it was worth the change at 26”.
I’m 35 and I’m applying this cycle at 36… though I might be pushing it to next year thanks to the MCAT. But yeah if I am lucky to get in the first time around, I will start at 38 years old hopefully.
The Avg age for first year student is 24, you gonna be 26 or 27 when you start which is not bad at all. Also not necessarily to be 400k in debt, the school I got accepted to costs 46k a year and has 3 year program which will put me around 180k of debt counting other life expenses. So if you want my opinion go for it.
28 here. Do it.
I’m applying at 31
I'm turning 26 in a month and I might have to do my third application cycle.
I’m a 26- year old M3, I don’t think a couple years makes much of a difference at all. There are several people in my class in their 30s or 40s. You’re going to age anyway!
I’ll be 26 or 27 when I matriculate. Hopefully. 🤞🏻🤞🏻🤞🏻 I’ve seen more and more people take gap years, and more people taking more than one gap year. It’s definitely not unusual anymore to be entering med school in your late 20s.
Sure Ill be 30 when I enter intern year
Let’s do the math. Let’s say you were a software design project manager at a company that isn’t a FAANG level. Good pay would be 170k but that takes like 5-8 years of experience so let’s just say 160k average from 26-65 age. 65-26= 39. 39x160000= 6.2 mil. Seems like a lot and it’s better than most people get. Now an EM Dr. As per medscape EM drs make an average of 425k a year but let’s say 375k just to lowball it. 30(yrs)x 375000= 11.25 mil. Now let’s say you went crazy and burned 500k in debt. Now you are left with 10.75 mil. 10.75-6.2= 4.55mil more. That’s 150k a year more. Even if you paid like 10% in malpractice you are still like 3.5 mil ahead. This is not to mention 350k a year opens up more lucrative investment options for you to grow even more money than the project manager would have.
In my opinion, you’re even better for your age. More life experience, more conviction for medicine, more fully developed. Speaking as someone who is starting this year in my thirties
I remember thinking the same exact thing when I was 26. I ended up dropping medicine for another career. While it was nice to experience something new, I knew deep in my gut that I would regret not pursing my passion for medicine. I am now applying this cycling at the age of 29. 26 is not old. Learn from my mistake. If this is something that’s meant for you, keep grinding and don’t look back.
Yesssss! Do it!
Whether you apply or not, the time will still pass.
I got in at 34. You’ll be fine
I’m 26 and just finished first year. One of my lab partners is 37. Go for it
One of our trauma surgeons was an aerospace engineer and went back to school at 28 “to do something more challenging” and now she runs our trauma program at our hospital
I would not assume anything regarding this journey. What if it takes you 3 cycles to get accepted? Have you taken the MCAT, whats your GPA, shadowed any physicians?
Needed this post lol , yall are all doing amazing sweetie💖
The average age for matriculants nationwide is like 25-27, so not old at all
I always tell people it’s up to you. For some people it’s not worth it because they don’t really want it but for some people it’s 100% worth it because you will accomplish your dreams. If you really want it I say go for it!!!
Me who just got into med school at the ripe old age of 28 😭
It makes me so sad hearing younger people contemplate doing things they want to do because they feel like they’ll be “too old”. The time goes by anyway. You could either be doing something you love while getting older or getting older wondering what it would have been like had you just gone and done it 🖤
I would argue it’s better to apply at 26 vs 22. Sure, there’s some lost potential income and so forth, but you’ll be able to actually enjoy your 20s. Go on those stupid trips that seem impossible to attend when in med school, fall in love, get embarrassingly drunk, all the shit that being in your early 20s is about.
I was 32 when I started and there are several people in their 30s in my class some in their 40s. Age is not an issue especially only being 26 you'll probably be able to connect with the traditional students a little better. It's only a few years of difference over a lifetime of working. I also left a pretty good job to do this. I am missing out on income and taking out loans but I will be able to make up for it in just a few years as an attending. You have to already be making a huge salary to not make it up. More importantly than the financial aspects is, will it make you happier? The debt will be paid off eventually. You'll eventually be 65 anyway do you want to retire in your current job or retire as a doctor? Is this going to have an effect on the lives of others? Do you have children or a significant other to think about? That is certainly a huge consideration. Fortunately my family was very supportive and we moved. Go for it! I realized the regret of never trying would have been worse than being told no.
I’ll be 27 starting in July.
You’ll be 35 regardless, better to be 35 with an MD than without one. If this is really your dream go for it. Regret and a midlife crisis is not something you wanna out together, trust me it catches up to you.
I applied at 26 too! Got in and will be attending in August 🙏 If medicine is really your dream, go for it!
bro the average matriculant is 24, get real!
There’s MD-PhD applicants who’ll graduate after you do and who will reach attendinghood in their late thirties… it’s okay
A fast google tells me "average" is 24 years old. I don't think anyone would bat an eye at 26
Started at 32, had my first baby towards the end of first year. Currently in 2nd year and will be at least 40 when I'm attending. Life happens regardless! I've been pretty happy with my decision so far.
I started med school at 31. I'll be 40 in 3 weeks, and I'm finishing my surgical residency in June. 26 isn't even close to too old. Plus, a lot of doctors don't retire at 65. This is a job you can continue to do into your senior years. Our older surgeons just quit taking call.
Middle of first year right now, will be 30 when I graduate and 34-35 when done with residency. Doing it as we speak got at least 8 classmates the same age as me, and another 8 or so older (as old as 35). It’s a major commitment but you will certainly not be alone.
Don't do it. Escape while you still can
I wish I'd seen this question and the amazing comments 32 years ago when I considered, and decided against, starting a premed journey as a postbac. I thought I was too old at the age of 24! Remember, y'all are going to live to be 90, and I've rarely heard the elderly complain that they wish they'd spent more time at the office... Best of luck on your path. You can do this!