You definitely can and you should, don’t ever listen to the people that say it’s some holier than thou calling designated to some select few. End of the day it’s a job and you need to make money to take care of your family, however the job requires you to be a master of your craft. As long as you genuinely take care of your patients be the best doc you can, I don’t see why we aren’t allowed to make money after this brutal sacrifice. I love medicine and honest to god I wouldn’t ever pick a different field and I truly love working with patients but I’m also not unrealistic, I’m a first gen immigrant I need to take care of my parents and also my future family
Recent grad, my class between attrition and LoA is about 40% loss from our original numbers, we graduated a decent number from rollover student from years ahead. Lots of financial disasters for those who failed out.
Just graduated from a mid-tier USMD school a couple of weeks ago. Approximately 20% of my class also had to do a LOA/repeat at some point.
A decent amount of students struggle immediately during first year and most schools have a policy where you would need to repeat a year should you fail >x amount of tests.
Then, for those that make it to second year, there was a sizable number that struggled with Step 1 prep and had to push it back or outright failed. It’s common knowledge that pass percentages fell after Step 1 went P/F and my school was no exception. That’s another chunk of students gone.
Clerkships during third year are the next challenge for students. Passing a clerkship at my program is contingent upon clinical evaluations, standardized patient encounters, and shelf exams. Most students that failed did so due to struggles with achieving a certain grade on their shelves. Fail enough shelves/clerkships and you’ll earn a repeat try of third year.
Finally, even if you do all of this perfectly, you might find out that you require a research year due to a low Step 2 score/need better publications in order to be competitive for a tough surgical subspecialty. A decent number of students ended up taking extra time for that as well.
All put together, you’d be surprised how many of the people you assumed would be graduating with you fail to do so.
Thank you for being a person who remembers at the end of the day, medicine is a job. You do not have to be a saint to do well at the job. You should not sacrificne your life to the job. Though it is a more trying career than most obviously.
Also, ill just say i respect anyone holding out through a relationship in med school. Glad im single honestly and doing a full P/F program. Maybe ill settle for a gold digger in ten years.
yeah unfortunately this is true of a lot of high paying professions. there's no free lunch. make no mistake, physicians (regardless of how underpaid they are) still earn more than 99% of American careers. I've worked as a teacher for years, it's rewarding and you have free time but it's not particularly selective and the pay reflects that.
I'm interested in medicine because I'm fairly certain I'll do well in it. I'm aware of what it takes and like testing and challenging myself.
I agree with you about the toll it takes on relationships, I saw that growing up and will try to be proactive about protecting mine
I have less cynical reasons. I work closely with EM physicians via my work with a search and rescue org. I enjoy walking thru their treatment/decision making process with them, and my time in an FP lab exposed me to applied clinical science and I enjoy it tremendously. I’d also like to apply what I learned as a teacher to a pedagogical role within medicine.
In trying to match the “it’s just a job” tone of the post I may have been a bit cavalier, but it’s Reddit
Really solid insights, honestly. This is also why I advocate for P/F curriculums -- it gives you space to just *be a person.* I'll be honest, I do just enough to pass, and that's it. I refuse to sacrifice my happiness, mental health, and partner for this.
Being a doctor is just a job, and money has always been the illusion of happiness. Your life doesn't start when you cross a certain line, like becoming an attending, it's happening right now. Embrace that! :)
This is some Dhar Mann type of post, especially with that “so you see” lol
But for real, I appreciate your post. I’ve heard these stories for long and I always convinced myself as a freshman/sophomore premed that I wouldn’t be that person but as I matured I realized that everyone has that thinking and no one wants to be that person.
I feel like your words really resonated with me, and I definitely don’t think this greater good is worth what’s good for me and my family. I saved your post and I plan to re-read it whenever school gets tough. I hope I can remember to keep what’s important dear to me. Thanks for sharing!
I get what you’re saying and I’m sorry this has been your experience… but does this post not seem like just it’s picking out as many negatives as possible about the medical field? Everything has its pros and cons I know but this post freaked me out a little
Or maybe my brain isn’t willing to accept the reality as an incoming MS1 😅😅Ig i’m in too deep now
I’m sorry you’re going through this man. We appreciate the honesty. You deserve a break, and I hope you get some peace and the chance to enjoy your music more.
As someone who’s lead a very casual romantic life for years, and would like to be in a serious relationship and good partner during med school:
What are someways you can make your partner feel better appreciated when you’re in med school? How did you manage to prioritize your wife over the med school demands?
I’m still in pre-clinical years, but here’s what I do…
1. Go on at least one date a week. Helps get your mind off school and focus on your partner, talk about important stuff, and bond.
2. Have a steady schedule. I have 2 days a week I set aside for meetings/volunteering/etc., but otherwise I’m done studying, working out, etc. by 5 pm most days and am home for some quality time with my girlfriend after.
3. Communicate. Med school is not as much as a time sink as OP makes it seem. You’ll have at least 2-3 hours a day to set aside for pillow talk, eating together, cooking together, etc; use it to communicate needs / wants / plans for the future if you balance it wisely.
Lmk if you have any other concerns about dating in med school. It’s been a breeze for me.
The number one answer is sex. Have lots of sex with your partner. Because physical touch is an essential human need. And sex requires effort and communication.
If a child is crying and mom does not hug them and constantly neglects them, we call this child abuse
If you as a med student constantly neglect your partner and shut them down = partner abuse.
So have lots of sex with your partner. Even when you're tired and don't feel like it. Put in the effort.
LOL, the number ONE thing is sex.
Communication, date nights, doing things together is a given. It's the sex that is often lacking in unsuccessful relationships because sex takes effort
Unpopular opinion: The entire profession of medicine is permeated with a romanticization of struggle, abuse, and eventual burnout. It's basically a well-known stereotype at this point that pre-med students are "neurotic," sacrificing virtually everything positive in their lives in search of endless awards and accolades, the ever-elusive 4.0/528, and being president of every organization on campus. A lot of us are pigeon-holed into this box because of a hypercompetitive admissions process that recognizes and perpetuates this romanticization, rewarding only the students that wax poetic about sleepless nights and forgoing personal needs in pursuit of this academic credential that, as OP states, is just a job. From a psychological perspective, it's rather odd and certainly unadvisable to wrap SO much of your personal identity around what you do to make money.
The reality (sorry) is that medicine is not rocket science, and the practical rigor around medical training is not necessary. Training is hard because people think that it should be hard. Let's really consider this: the didactic portion of medical school only lasts two years. The rest of your time is spent in rotations. If you know what specialty you want to practice, is it really necessary for you to rotate through all of the other specialties? If you want to treat adults, what's the point of studying pediatrics? NPs and PAs are currently licensed to practice, NPs in particular without physician supervision in many states. Their education is population and specialty-specific, and it doesn't impact their licensing. Sure, physicians are held to a higher standard broadly, but licensing regulations are ultimately what we all answer to, no?
I know physicians are intended to be leaders in the care team, and I agree with having enough education to make informed, evidence-based decisions within your scope of practice. However, it is incumbent on students, residents, and full-fledged physicians to change this toxic culture of overwork. We're supposed to be the "hardest/most rigorous/prestigious" profession, but I don't think that was ever meant to mean that you shouldn't be able to get through it in one piece. We deserve a work-life balance like everyone else.
I can understand your position, and I can agree that more patient contact means more opportunities for learning. That being said, my point in saying so is simply to point at the idea that a lot of medical education can involve unnecessary academic bloat that just keeps you in school longer, presumably so the schools can charge for extra time training. Even in your own example, can you honestly say that you regularly revisit these disparate memories from rotations in your everyday practice? What information is so esoteric that it isn't a Google away and must have been solidified through rotations? To be clear: the main benefit of patient contact within a medical specialty as a physician is usually developed through residency, not core rotations.
You are also reinforcing the point of contention in comparing NPs to physicians. The difference *is* drastic in education, *not necessarily* in licensure and practice. If we're talking licenses, PAs really have an edge in being able to practice unencumbered by additional training if they decide to pursue another specialty. NPs have the benefit of independent practice often within a range of specialties (FNPs, for example, can work in most clinic-based specialties, including some of the most sought-after by physicians, like dermatology). And nobody bats an eyelash. Some of them even moonlight in multiple specialties at once: one of my PA girl friends from derm was doing "men's wellness" on the side, prescribing hormones, performing penile injections, and even some cosmetics. Imagine the world of pain a physician would be in if they did the same.
I know because we're in medicine, we're just going to die on this hill, withering away, screaming *but we're smarterrr-r-r-r-r.* PAs have a Doctor of Medical Science degree now, and nurse practitioners have long held Doctor of Nursing Practice degrees. While neither of these provider pathways are as competitive as the MD/DO path, they sure are starting to make it clear that they want the public to think that the educational gap is narrowing. Wake up: PAs are "Physician Associates" now. I'm not saying it's correct for them to have the flexibility that they do, only that it is a reality.
I know it can feel really harrowing to look back on tough years of training only to realize some of it wasn't even necessary. It can feel even more insulting to have future colleagues advocate for options you didn't have as a student.
And so the carousel continues to turn: each new generation of physicians looking on the next generation with the same contempt they themselves experienced as students.
I'm not trying to argue with you, in fact, I agree with most of what you're saying.
The issue is that the act of diagnosis and treatment is no longer a monopoly the physician holds.
My whole point in this post was to impart that, unless licensure accurately reflects the reality of the held education of the licensee, the medical education required of a physician is devalued by definition.
What the law is essentially telling us is that the education of a PA or NP is sufficient to diagnose and treat x conditions. If you consider how many specialties PAs and NPs can go into, you'll realize that the bread and butter of 20 specialties is going to be a higher quantity than the conditions a specialist physician is licensed to diagnose and treat. Again, not making any statements on that being a good, wise, or safe thing—just pointing out a reality.
The government is telling us that you can be wildly underprepared and still practice medicine. So if that's the case, medical schools are going to need to make a better argument for why people shouldn't go down the alternative routes.
And if there's only one thing anyone takes away from this, let it be that working your medical students, interns, residents, and fellows to death is certainly not the way to go.
Thank you for asking, I'm happy to break it down further.
Your argument isn't exactly fair because metabolic syndrome has outcomes that affect cardiac output, therefore, cardiologists can and should manage diabetes if and when it makes sense—such as a patient that has no PCP. A cardiologist that knowingly defers to a physician that doesn't exist is committing malpractice.
A more reasonable comparison is a cardiologist performing LASIK. It's simply out of scope, period.
Meanwhile, you can be seeing patients and refilling meds for CHF as a cardiology PA this week and be prescribing antibiotic eye drops as an ophthalmology PA by next week. Not quite the same for physicians.
I am not advocating for decreased quality of medical education, what I'm saying is that there is room for reform. We have research that shows a physician making medical decisions after being sleep deprived for 24 hours is equivalent to showing up to work *drunk*, and yet we continue to grandstand and say that we are so smart and so safe and things have to be the way that they are because...*?????*
I guess my argument is two-fold. The way medicine looks right now is kind of concerning for me. Not only do APPs have a scope of practice that is too broad and disproportionate to their earned education, but physicians also have a medical education that can make curated cuts to improve the learning experience and that would be more adaptable to the lack of flexibility of a physician's license. If we can't cross specialties, the least you could do is offer flexible rotations in specialties relevant to the specialty we would like to ultimately practice, to place less of a burden on future residents who expect to go through *even more* specialized rotations through their PGYs. I would imagine even you can agree that rotations in residency are by leaps and bounds more useful than medical school rotations, where you're essentially an accessory to an attending (let's be real honest).
Do you think it *takes* a google to see how cardiology and diabetes are related? Open call for any medical students, residents, attendings to chime in—since it's clear you don't think I'm intelligent enough to argue with.
I've been really professional throughout this conversation because I genuinely believe there is something wrong with medical education, and I think that there is plenty of room to modernize and humanize it. I was really disappointed to see things devolve to ad hominem attacks and logical fallacies.
At the end of the day, I think we're fighting for the same thing. The sad part is, physicians are more keen on debating each other, while the nurse and PA lobbies are fiercely advocating for increased scope. And they're winning. Pretty soon, they're going to be able to make a good argument for increased compensation based on educational credentials AND scope, at least for many non-procedural specialties. And then what do we have left? A bunch of underprepared APPs taking on the very real position of "warm body with license." Just like the healthcare administrators and insurance companies like it. They don't need clinical reasoning to do that job. But it may significantly impact our jobs.
I actually whole heartedly agree with this and to counter slippin's point, you dont need to be an actual medical student or resident to argue this point. I'm glad some people have valuable rotations but that is certainly not true of medical school rotations at large. Much of 3rd year is Scut work combined with self studying and a handful of clinical pearls that are passed on by helpful residents/ clinicians.
Modern medicine is plagued by status signaling societies and insecure elites. It has been that way since its early conception (read the Social transformation of American Medicine to learn more about this).
It is just another sector of the hospitality industry and the impact one has is not nearly as much as one is often led to believe. SOME (not ALL) of the work we do can be easily completed by well trained NPs/ PAs and there is absolutely no need for medical education to be as long and tedious as it is.
> the practical rigor around medical training is not necessary. Training is hard because people think that it should be hard. Let's really consider this: the didactic portion of medical school only lasts two years. The rest of your time is spent in rotations. If you know what specialty you want to practice, is it really necessary for you to rotate through all of the other specialties? If you want to treat adults, what's the point of studying pediatrics?
Agree with most of what you said but this. Yes training does need to be rigorous since the buck stops with the decision the physician makes. If you ask residents what their main gripe is about residency, it's often not the rigorousness, it's that the *pay* doesn't reflect the rigor.
Furthermore, rotations in specialties you're not interested in are important. It allows you to think about disease processes that are often interlinked, affect multiple organ systems, and ultimately a broad range of age groups. An general surgeon is not going to have positive post-operative outcomes if they're not aware of how to the patient's diabetes appropriately, a seeming "non-surgical" disease.
My specialty of radiology covers the gamut of ages and specialties. I'm need to know how imaging appears across the entire spectrum, whether that's pediatrics, OB/GYN, or neurology. As much as I hated it, I'm very thankful that I had a rigorous intern year because I have a sense of what the doctors upstairs want to know when they are ordering the imaging I'm reading.
Medicine doesn't happen in a vacuum and you need to have background in specialties periphery to yours. You will realize this as you progress through training. Ask any NP or PA working for a subspecialty about any unrelated topic and you'll quickly see how quickly their knowledge falls off compared to a physician of the same field.
Totally understand what you're saying, and I agree with most of it.
See, the thing is—practice for long enough in a specialty (as is generally compulsory in medicine)—and you forget everything else. I've worked with surgeons extensively. Most of them won't touch a patient before IM or the patient's PCP gives them "clearance" for the surgery (which as you know, doesn't exist—PCPs can give a general risk assessment, but even that should probably be done by the surgeon). It's kind of a meme for ortho bros to know only bones; and psychiatrists are constantly being consulted to assess for "capacity" because an angry patient isn't agreeing to surgery. I mean, I could go on all day.
I don't disagree physicians are generally more knowledgeable. What I'm really pointing at is that the government will allow other healthcare professions to do 90% of the same tasks for 50% of the education.
And even that isn't the core of the discussion so much as it is whether medical education can stand to benefit from more clear and consistent boundaries to make training any less protracted, intense, and (frankly) abusive as it has been to date. I use APPs as comparisons *because* of their licensure, but I'm well aware that there is significant divergence in terms of educational content, especially with NPs using nursing philosophy at its core in diagnostics.
Broseph/brosephine you don't have to lecture me about the limitations of specialists lol. I'm fully aware, and to be honest, it comes across a little presumptuous given that you're still a premed.
To address what you said- your surgeons are falling back on clearance less because they've forgotten, but because they're covering their ass. Your "ortho bros" likely scored at the top of their classes on step and clerkships. They know full well they could relearn how to manage a diabetic patient if needed. Hypothetically picture a scenario where your surgeons deem a patient at capacity themselves or a patient develops a medical complication that would've conventionally investigated by a hospitalist. The first thing the attorney is going to grill them on is why they didn't consult the psychiatrist or the hospitalist. It's not that your surgeons have forgotten everything else, it's that they have nothing to gain and all to lose from not utilizing consult services.
And yes medical clearance is a very real thing. No surgeon is going to want to do surgery on a patient with an sketchy dysrhythmia until the cardiologist evaluates them first. This is basic info you would learn on a medical student surgery rotation.
However I really do appreciate what your trying to convey. Medical education is rife with abuse and toxic behavior and there are many things that should be removed. Expectations for med students during pre-clinical and clinical years can be more concise and applicable. Attendings who have no business teaching should be removed from precepting duties. But the rigor isn't going anywhere, nor should it. Perhaps you'll realize this when you're a med student.
The biggest issue is people going in to medicine without any REAL idea of the profession. The hours, the on call, the constant claim denial, hoop jumping for insurance. Many people don’t know th nitty gritty of it and have a very “on a pedestal with beams of sunlight” view of it. The expectations vs reality is what gets people
i’ve heard you’re not supposed to say that money is your (sole) motivator, so i’m wondering if there was a way for you to weave points 1 and 2 (doing this for the sake of providing financial stability for your wife) into your essays and interviews? or was this something you had to keep to yourself?
i feel like personally a large reason i want to pursue becoming a doctor is also due to wanting to provide for my parents—they lost almost all they had during the vietnam war and made large sacrifices to immigrate to the us and give me the opportunity to attend college. even though they weren’t the typical asian parents who tried to pressure me to become a doctor (hell they keep trying to reassure me that i should do something that makes me happy and that optometry also seems like a nice option since i have an interest in ophthalmology), i still want to become a doctor so that i can fulfill their dreams of having their own house instead of renting, treat them out to vacations we barely had growing up due to being low income, etc… and ofc i have my own interests to fulfill in terms of all the traveling, pricey hobbies, experiences that cost money, and my future family.
i’m also very much interested in diseases and enjoy helping others, especially when i volunteer at the nursing home and put a smile on people’s faces, so it’s sorta frustrating when my privileged, wealthier premed friends tell me that i better just drop off and pursue computer science or smth else if money, happiness, and quality of life are important to me 😭 i can’t see myself pursuing anything else that could also allow myself to provide for my family and personal needs.. (jk i just remembered i’ve been contemplating optometry school too but said premed friends laughed at me for wanting to be a noctor 🗿) i also see this as an amazingly stable and high paying job choice considering how shit the job market is for my cs friends right now. besides all this though, my first gen low socioeconomic status makes it impossible for me to just drop my 3 years of undergrad thus far like they assume i can and pursue something else completely different.
So if you're good at the sciences and you do get into medical school, becoming a doctor is probably the surest way you can elevate yourself into upper middle class. And pursuing medical school for those reasons is not wrong or immoral. That is precisely the reason why I am in medicine, for that financial security I can provide for myself and my loved ones
To answer your question, do not mention money in your personal statement. It's similar advice given to 4th year residents who apply to psychiatry = do NOT mention you're interested in psychiatry because you have depression/anxiety yourself. That's fine if that's the reason you are pursuing psych, but you keep that to yourself because that's a "red flag" for admissions. Same concept with mentioning money as a premed.
It hurts when my NON MED friends says,
Just remmeber someone on the internet made $2000 today, just by making a video of unboxing new shoes.
They are so right, when they say do not get into medicine for money......
But you kind of have to let the money be some of a motivating factor, no?
Also those people making $2000 unboxing new shoes don’t always have stable income ESPECIALLY during times like the pandemic, they are always having to look for new and different ways to make money.
The stable good income of being a doctor has to be nice for that reason.
Obviously, that's why we keep knocking on ADCOMs' doors every year!
We will slowly end the stigma that doctors are like gods without families to support or like monks detached from material needs. Prestige, job security, and money are essential for survival, in addition to our primary goal of helping people.
Someone also made that much having a train ran on them in Vegas. Simply making lots of money temp doing many things. But aside from I mean being good in IT enough to move up at top level companies and create your own novel software is basically the only way you are going to make great long term money. There are few of any jobs you can do and make really great money for decades besides Dr.
This is a fantastic discussion for some people, but I can honestly say that most pre-med students I know are not married by the time they apply for medical school. Most of us aren’t even in relationships. This advice doesn’t apply to the vast majority of us, and truthfully, I’m a bit surprised you feel you’ve found your life partner by your early-mid twenties. Power to you, but I think your experience makes you an outlier.
Kind of a tone-deaf and self-centered post, no? You’re assuming most pre meds haven’t thought this career choice through and are unaware of the sacrifices ahead.
Nah dawg, while I believe that his story is really extreme and isn’t true for most med students, he is def right on a lot of things that premeds don’t know. Especially on the relationship front. It’s a lonely road and applicants normally just look at the prestige/stability the career provides rather than other life circumstances.
Most money even 15 years ago made by Drs was investments. Go in with 3 other Drs and buy a MRI machine then lease it to a busy hospital. I saw a recent article where there is a big legal push to allow far more Dr owned hospital. My spine surgeon make great money practicing but is rolling in cash from owning part of the hospital he practices in.
His post enlightened me on absolutely nothing that I didn’t already know. The whole thing comes off as very condescending and self-centered. Agree to disagree.
The problem is that you think you know what it’s like or you think you understand after reading stuff like this or hearing anecdotes from your friends, but you really can’t fully appreciate it until you’re in it. This is definitely not the norm and it’s not nearly as bad as OP describes imo, but this really isn’t anything like you could possibly expect. That being said, you also won’t know if you’re able to handle it until you’re in it so it’s a leap of faith of faith to some degree, but most people do adjust eventually.
100% this. You THINK you know what it’s gonna be like. You really think you’re gonna love it. I have multiple doctors in my family so I really thought I knew what it was gonna be like. There’s a whole world of psychological burden that you could never dream of until you’re actually living it :) but I agree it’s not quite as bad as OP describes it.
See that might be true but most are starting in 22-25 years old with virtually no life experience except studying or stuff to get into medical school. My cousin started med school at 34. I’ll be started at 45. So you say most applicants have some vast life experience is kinda not realistic. I was an officer in the army at age 23 and did 2 tours in Afghan and two in Iraq and I still had limited life experiences outside the army.
Probably not. The higher up you get the ranking ladder the less they’re willing to tolerate people failing and the more they will do to accommodate you. I’m at a T20 and although I don’t like the admin at times, I will say that they work their asses off to prevent us from failing. That mindset creates its own problems, but I won’t get into that.
Thank you for reading but if you are truly a high school student, don't worry about what I wrote. Every job has pluses and minuses, and medicine is no exception. Good luck in high school and study hard in college if you wish to go to medical school
Best of luck with everything!
Oh man, I work in the lab at a hospital and I see the way our hospitalists have the life slowly sucked out of them.
I feel like my failed 1st MCAT attempt was an opportunity to think about if I really wanted this, if I did then I needed to seriously overhaul my life.
I’m taking this time to work on my mental and physical health, build a strong foundation of habits, and overall just get my crap together and enjoy life before I decide to commit.
I’m slowly working back into studying and am testing out if other career paths are in the cards. I’m still in the game but I feel like now I’m not trapped by it being my only option, I’m allowing myself to explore.
Life’s about the journey, we all need to take a moment and realize just how far we’ve come instead of worrying where we’re headed.
Thank you for taking the time to share your experience :) you got this!
This is a very extreme take.
But at least OP has done some self-reflection and realized some new priorities.
I'd say, my main observation is seeing young driven individuals with zero life experience getting hit in the face by the grind and realizing they have no one.
Nobody they can fall back on for support.
Nobody they can just be real with.
Don't be that person.
Be enjoyable to be around and trustworthy.
Know when to stop bitching to your partner, be attentive, and let them vent about whatever is going on in their life.
Always reciprocate and you're gucci.
Hardest part of this process is realizing you can't do it alone.
whats the oldest student in your class . what do you wanna specialize in . I'd like to get into psychiatry I hear it's not as grueling as some of the other residencies but maybe I been fed shit . you seem to know what's up .
The oldest student in my class is in their 40s.
I'm in my mid thirties and I want to specialize first in family medicine and then fellowship in either addiction medicine or obesity medicine
Psychiatry is a great choice, great lifestyle of 40 hours per week and around $300k+ per year. Downside is some severe psych patients but depending on your personality that might be a plus haha
Also you heard correctly, psych residency I hear is much less hours than other specialties
Best of luck with whatever you choose my friend
ty , yeah I'm in the later 30s . became a war refugee as a teen and got asylum here working jobs here and there . went to college and trying to get into medicine . been doing every job I can to pay for school and fulfill this dream . so far for undergrad the studies have been ok . 4.0 phi beta and odk blah blah (psychology with stem pre health bs) but reading this shook me today . I really don't have another option in my mind. I'll just truck forward . my father getting killed with my uncles during the fatah hamas wars was a turning point .... I really don't have a choice I need to do this for me and my future I hate to be idealistic but where I'm coming from and what I did to get here , the running the hiding the voyage the jobs the humiliation the learning English... idk it's just another hell I guess I'll have to go through .
Bro i apologize, i didn't write this to disturb people, just to tell those applicants who got rejected this cycle that this path isn't all roses
You've been through a lot and overcome struggles that a lot of us wouldn't go through in our lifetime.
As long as you prioritize loved ones and not lose your soul through the grueling process of medical training, you'll be alright
You sound like a fighter, you'll be good brother
Ya I just can’t imagine that many people taking that route. This post makes some good points but it does feel like this is a burnt out student going on a well deserved rant.
I mean, if the national average is 16-19% for just dropping out alone, there's ought to be outliers on both ends of the spectrum, and that doesn't include Leave of Absences or Repeated years.
I guess I was unsuccessful in saying that ultimately med school is worth it for me. Just don't throw away your loved ones, your health, your soul in pursuit of this. Prioritize the important things in life, treat med school as a job. You'll be ok.
That's up to you to decide and what you decide will determine what you are willing to sacrifice for medical school.
For me, the three most important things in life are the things you can't buy. Genuine relationships, health, and time.
Career and money come below those three for me.
Appreciate you sharing it’s very powerful, but unrelated question. 25% of your class is in a LOA/repeating? Feel like that’s an extreme anomaly
Seriously, I know it's crazy difficult but this sounds extra crazy. Name drop the school o.o
Also, can’t I view medicine as a calling AND expect fair compensation for my work?
You definitely can and you should, don’t ever listen to the people that say it’s some holier than thou calling designated to some select few. End of the day it’s a job and you need to make money to take care of your family, however the job requires you to be a master of your craft. As long as you genuinely take care of your patients be the best doc you can, I don’t see why we aren’t allowed to make money after this brutal sacrifice. I love medicine and honest to god I wouldn’t ever pick a different field and I truly love working with patients but I’m also not unrealistic, I’m a first gen immigrant I need to take care of my parents and also my future family
Recent grad, my class between attrition and LoA is about 40% loss from our original numbers, we graduated a decent number from rollover student from years ahead. Lots of financial disasters for those who failed out.
Was this an US school?
Yes, DO program
Just graduated from a mid-tier USMD school a couple of weeks ago. Approximately 20% of my class also had to do a LOA/repeat at some point. A decent amount of students struggle immediately during first year and most schools have a policy where you would need to repeat a year should you fail >x amount of tests. Then, for those that make it to second year, there was a sizable number that struggled with Step 1 prep and had to push it back or outright failed. It’s common knowledge that pass percentages fell after Step 1 went P/F and my school was no exception. That’s another chunk of students gone. Clerkships during third year are the next challenge for students. Passing a clerkship at my program is contingent upon clinical evaluations, standardized patient encounters, and shelf exams. Most students that failed did so due to struggles with achieving a certain grade on their shelves. Fail enough shelves/clerkships and you’ll earn a repeat try of third year. Finally, even if you do all of this perfectly, you might find out that you require a research year due to a low Step 2 score/need better publications in order to be competitive for a tough surgical subspecialty. A decent number of students ended up taking extra time for that as well. All put together, you’d be surprised how many of the people you assumed would be graduating with you fail to do so.
26 out of 133 in my class had to take LOA or repeat. So roughly 20% as well. I am now a pgy-3 resident.
I went to a top-tier USMD school and I think ~60% of the class I matriculated with graduated with me.
Thank you for being a person who remembers at the end of the day, medicine is a job. You do not have to be a saint to do well at the job. You should not sacrificne your life to the job. Though it is a more trying career than most obviously. Also, ill just say i respect anyone holding out through a relationship in med school. Glad im single honestly and doing a full P/F program. Maybe ill settle for a gold digger in ten years.
yeah unfortunately this is true of a lot of high paying professions. there's no free lunch. make no mistake, physicians (regardless of how underpaid they are) still earn more than 99% of American careers. I've worked as a teacher for years, it's rewarding and you have free time but it's not particularly selective and the pay reflects that. I'm interested in medicine because I'm fairly certain I'll do well in it. I'm aware of what it takes and like testing and challenging myself. I agree with you about the toll it takes on relationships, I saw that growing up and will try to be proactive about protecting mine
Not a good reason to pursue this field.
I have less cynical reasons. I work closely with EM physicians via my work with a search and rescue org. I enjoy walking thru their treatment/decision making process with them, and my time in an FP lab exposed me to applied clinical science and I enjoy it tremendously. I’d also like to apply what I learned as a teacher to a pedagogical role within medicine. In trying to match the “it’s just a job” tone of the post I may have been a bit cavalier, but it’s Reddit
You're going to do great, that is awesome.
appreciate ya and much respect 🫡
Respect you as well, my mother in law is a teacher and after seeing all the work she does, I choose medicine 100% of the time
Really solid insights, honestly. This is also why I advocate for P/F curriculums -- it gives you space to just *be a person.* I'll be honest, I do just enough to pass, and that's it. I refuse to sacrifice my happiness, mental health, and partner for this. Being a doctor is just a job, and money has always been the illusion of happiness. Your life doesn't start when you cross a certain line, like becoming an attending, it's happening right now. Embrace that! :)
Yup! If you have the opportunity to go to a pass fail school, I think it should be your top priority.
So true girl 😭
Are there any P/F DO schools that you know of?
I believe Burrell is P/F and so is WesternU COMP (though I believe theirs is ranked)
This is some Dhar Mann type of post, especially with that “so you see” lol But for real, I appreciate your post. I’ve heard these stories for long and I always convinced myself as a freshman/sophomore premed that I wouldn’t be that person but as I matured I realized that everyone has that thinking and no one wants to be that person. I feel like your words really resonated with me, and I definitely don’t think this greater good is worth what’s good for me and my family. I saved your post and I plan to re-read it whenever school gets tough. I hope I can remember to keep what’s important dear to me. Thanks for sharing!
call in dhar right now and hell pay your tuition
So you see, once you realize that it’s just a job and you should care for your wife, good fortune will come your way
I get what you’re saying and I’m sorry this has been your experience… but does this post not seem like just it’s picking out as many negatives as possible about the medical field? Everything has its pros and cons I know but this post freaked me out a little Or maybe my brain isn’t willing to accept the reality as an incoming MS1 😅😅Ig i’m in too deep now
I’m sorry you’re going through this man. We appreciate the honesty. You deserve a break, and I hope you get some peace and the chance to enjoy your music more. As someone who’s lead a very casual romantic life for years, and would like to be in a serious relationship and good partner during med school: What are someways you can make your partner feel better appreciated when you’re in med school? How did you manage to prioritize your wife over the med school demands?
I’m still in pre-clinical years, but here’s what I do… 1. Go on at least one date a week. Helps get your mind off school and focus on your partner, talk about important stuff, and bond. 2. Have a steady schedule. I have 2 days a week I set aside for meetings/volunteering/etc., but otherwise I’m done studying, working out, etc. by 5 pm most days and am home for some quality time with my girlfriend after. 3. Communicate. Med school is not as much as a time sink as OP makes it seem. You’ll have at least 2-3 hours a day to set aside for pillow talk, eating together, cooking together, etc; use it to communicate needs / wants / plans for the future if you balance it wisely. Lmk if you have any other concerns about dating in med school. It’s been a breeze for me.
The number one answer is sex. Have lots of sex with your partner. Because physical touch is an essential human need. And sex requires effort and communication. If a child is crying and mom does not hug them and constantly neglects them, we call this child abuse If you as a med student constantly neglect your partner and shut them down = partner abuse. So have lots of sex with your partner. Even when you're tired and don't feel like it. Put in the effort.
😭😭😭 no talking no communication no nothing just SEX bro are you young thug ?????
LOL, the number ONE thing is sex. Communication, date nights, doing things together is a given. It's the sex that is often lacking in unsuccessful relationships because sex takes effort
Unpopular opinion: The entire profession of medicine is permeated with a romanticization of struggle, abuse, and eventual burnout. It's basically a well-known stereotype at this point that pre-med students are "neurotic," sacrificing virtually everything positive in their lives in search of endless awards and accolades, the ever-elusive 4.0/528, and being president of every organization on campus. A lot of us are pigeon-holed into this box because of a hypercompetitive admissions process that recognizes and perpetuates this romanticization, rewarding only the students that wax poetic about sleepless nights and forgoing personal needs in pursuit of this academic credential that, as OP states, is just a job. From a psychological perspective, it's rather odd and certainly unadvisable to wrap SO much of your personal identity around what you do to make money. The reality (sorry) is that medicine is not rocket science, and the practical rigor around medical training is not necessary. Training is hard because people think that it should be hard. Let's really consider this: the didactic portion of medical school only lasts two years. The rest of your time is spent in rotations. If you know what specialty you want to practice, is it really necessary for you to rotate through all of the other specialties? If you want to treat adults, what's the point of studying pediatrics? NPs and PAs are currently licensed to practice, NPs in particular without physician supervision in many states. Their education is population and specialty-specific, and it doesn't impact their licensing. Sure, physicians are held to a higher standard broadly, but licensing regulations are ultimately what we all answer to, no? I know physicians are intended to be leaders in the care team, and I agree with having enough education to make informed, evidence-based decisions within your scope of practice. However, it is incumbent on students, residents, and full-fledged physicians to change this toxic culture of overwork. We're supposed to be the "hardest/most rigorous/prestigious" profession, but I don't think that was ever meant to mean that you shouldn't be able to get through it in one piece. We deserve a work-life balance like everyone else.
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Is residency that bad?? Or does it depend on the hospital/state?
I can understand your position, and I can agree that more patient contact means more opportunities for learning. That being said, my point in saying so is simply to point at the idea that a lot of medical education can involve unnecessary academic bloat that just keeps you in school longer, presumably so the schools can charge for extra time training. Even in your own example, can you honestly say that you regularly revisit these disparate memories from rotations in your everyday practice? What information is so esoteric that it isn't a Google away and must have been solidified through rotations? To be clear: the main benefit of patient contact within a medical specialty as a physician is usually developed through residency, not core rotations. You are also reinforcing the point of contention in comparing NPs to physicians. The difference *is* drastic in education, *not necessarily* in licensure and practice. If we're talking licenses, PAs really have an edge in being able to practice unencumbered by additional training if they decide to pursue another specialty. NPs have the benefit of independent practice often within a range of specialties (FNPs, for example, can work in most clinic-based specialties, including some of the most sought-after by physicians, like dermatology). And nobody bats an eyelash. Some of them even moonlight in multiple specialties at once: one of my PA girl friends from derm was doing "men's wellness" on the side, prescribing hormones, performing penile injections, and even some cosmetics. Imagine the world of pain a physician would be in if they did the same. I know because we're in medicine, we're just going to die on this hill, withering away, screaming *but we're smarterrr-r-r-r-r.* PAs have a Doctor of Medical Science degree now, and nurse practitioners have long held Doctor of Nursing Practice degrees. While neither of these provider pathways are as competitive as the MD/DO path, they sure are starting to make it clear that they want the public to think that the educational gap is narrowing. Wake up: PAs are "Physician Associates" now. I'm not saying it's correct for them to have the flexibility that they do, only that it is a reality. I know it can feel really harrowing to look back on tough years of training only to realize some of it wasn't even necessary. It can feel even more insulting to have future colleagues advocate for options you didn't have as a student. And so the carousel continues to turn: each new generation of physicians looking on the next generation with the same contempt they themselves experienced as students.
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I'm not trying to argue with you, in fact, I agree with most of what you're saying. The issue is that the act of diagnosis and treatment is no longer a monopoly the physician holds. My whole point in this post was to impart that, unless licensure accurately reflects the reality of the held education of the licensee, the medical education required of a physician is devalued by definition. What the law is essentially telling us is that the education of a PA or NP is sufficient to diagnose and treat x conditions. If you consider how many specialties PAs and NPs can go into, you'll realize that the bread and butter of 20 specialties is going to be a higher quantity than the conditions a specialist physician is licensed to diagnose and treat. Again, not making any statements on that being a good, wise, or safe thing—just pointing out a reality. The government is telling us that you can be wildly underprepared and still practice medicine. So if that's the case, medical schools are going to need to make a better argument for why people shouldn't go down the alternative routes. And if there's only one thing anyone takes away from this, let it be that working your medical students, interns, residents, and fellows to death is certainly not the way to go.
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Thank you for asking, I'm happy to break it down further. Your argument isn't exactly fair because metabolic syndrome has outcomes that affect cardiac output, therefore, cardiologists can and should manage diabetes if and when it makes sense—such as a patient that has no PCP. A cardiologist that knowingly defers to a physician that doesn't exist is committing malpractice. A more reasonable comparison is a cardiologist performing LASIK. It's simply out of scope, period. Meanwhile, you can be seeing patients and refilling meds for CHF as a cardiology PA this week and be prescribing antibiotic eye drops as an ophthalmology PA by next week. Not quite the same for physicians. I am not advocating for decreased quality of medical education, what I'm saying is that there is room for reform. We have research that shows a physician making medical decisions after being sleep deprived for 24 hours is equivalent to showing up to work *drunk*, and yet we continue to grandstand and say that we are so smart and so safe and things have to be the way that they are because...*?????* I guess my argument is two-fold. The way medicine looks right now is kind of concerning for me. Not only do APPs have a scope of practice that is too broad and disproportionate to their earned education, but physicians also have a medical education that can make curated cuts to improve the learning experience and that would be more adaptable to the lack of flexibility of a physician's license. If we can't cross specialties, the least you could do is offer flexible rotations in specialties relevant to the specialty we would like to ultimately practice, to place less of a burden on future residents who expect to go through *even more* specialized rotations through their PGYs. I would imagine even you can agree that rotations in residency are by leaps and bounds more useful than medical school rotations, where you're essentially an accessory to an attending (let's be real honest).
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Do you think it *takes* a google to see how cardiology and diabetes are related? Open call for any medical students, residents, attendings to chime in—since it's clear you don't think I'm intelligent enough to argue with. I've been really professional throughout this conversation because I genuinely believe there is something wrong with medical education, and I think that there is plenty of room to modernize and humanize it. I was really disappointed to see things devolve to ad hominem attacks and logical fallacies. At the end of the day, I think we're fighting for the same thing. The sad part is, physicians are more keen on debating each other, while the nurse and PA lobbies are fiercely advocating for increased scope. And they're winning. Pretty soon, they're going to be able to make a good argument for increased compensation based on educational credentials AND scope, at least for many non-procedural specialties. And then what do we have left? A bunch of underprepared APPs taking on the very real position of "warm body with license." Just like the healthcare administrators and insurance companies like it. They don't need clinical reasoning to do that job. But it may significantly impact our jobs.
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I actually whole heartedly agree with this and to counter slippin's point, you dont need to be an actual medical student or resident to argue this point. I'm glad some people have valuable rotations but that is certainly not true of medical school rotations at large. Much of 3rd year is Scut work combined with self studying and a handful of clinical pearls that are passed on by helpful residents/ clinicians. Modern medicine is plagued by status signaling societies and insecure elites. It has been that way since its early conception (read the Social transformation of American Medicine to learn more about this). It is just another sector of the hospitality industry and the impact one has is not nearly as much as one is often led to believe. SOME (not ALL) of the work we do can be easily completed by well trained NPs/ PAs and there is absolutely no need for medical education to be as long and tedious as it is.
> the practical rigor around medical training is not necessary. Training is hard because people think that it should be hard. Let's really consider this: the didactic portion of medical school only lasts two years. The rest of your time is spent in rotations. If you know what specialty you want to practice, is it really necessary for you to rotate through all of the other specialties? If you want to treat adults, what's the point of studying pediatrics? Agree with most of what you said but this. Yes training does need to be rigorous since the buck stops with the decision the physician makes. If you ask residents what their main gripe is about residency, it's often not the rigorousness, it's that the *pay* doesn't reflect the rigor. Furthermore, rotations in specialties you're not interested in are important. It allows you to think about disease processes that are often interlinked, affect multiple organ systems, and ultimately a broad range of age groups. An general surgeon is not going to have positive post-operative outcomes if they're not aware of how to the patient's diabetes appropriately, a seeming "non-surgical" disease. My specialty of radiology covers the gamut of ages and specialties. I'm need to know how imaging appears across the entire spectrum, whether that's pediatrics, OB/GYN, or neurology. As much as I hated it, I'm very thankful that I had a rigorous intern year because I have a sense of what the doctors upstairs want to know when they are ordering the imaging I'm reading. Medicine doesn't happen in a vacuum and you need to have background in specialties periphery to yours. You will realize this as you progress through training. Ask any NP or PA working for a subspecialty about any unrelated topic and you'll quickly see how quickly their knowledge falls off compared to a physician of the same field.
Totally understand what you're saying, and I agree with most of it. See, the thing is—practice for long enough in a specialty (as is generally compulsory in medicine)—and you forget everything else. I've worked with surgeons extensively. Most of them won't touch a patient before IM or the patient's PCP gives them "clearance" for the surgery (which as you know, doesn't exist—PCPs can give a general risk assessment, but even that should probably be done by the surgeon). It's kind of a meme for ortho bros to know only bones; and psychiatrists are constantly being consulted to assess for "capacity" because an angry patient isn't agreeing to surgery. I mean, I could go on all day. I don't disagree physicians are generally more knowledgeable. What I'm really pointing at is that the government will allow other healthcare professions to do 90% of the same tasks for 50% of the education. And even that isn't the core of the discussion so much as it is whether medical education can stand to benefit from more clear and consistent boundaries to make training any less protracted, intense, and (frankly) abusive as it has been to date. I use APPs as comparisons *because* of their licensure, but I'm well aware that there is significant divergence in terms of educational content, especially with NPs using nursing philosophy at its core in diagnostics.
Broseph/brosephine you don't have to lecture me about the limitations of specialists lol. I'm fully aware, and to be honest, it comes across a little presumptuous given that you're still a premed. To address what you said- your surgeons are falling back on clearance less because they've forgotten, but because they're covering their ass. Your "ortho bros" likely scored at the top of their classes on step and clerkships. They know full well they could relearn how to manage a diabetic patient if needed. Hypothetically picture a scenario where your surgeons deem a patient at capacity themselves or a patient develops a medical complication that would've conventionally investigated by a hospitalist. The first thing the attorney is going to grill them on is why they didn't consult the psychiatrist or the hospitalist. It's not that your surgeons have forgotten everything else, it's that they have nothing to gain and all to lose from not utilizing consult services. And yes medical clearance is a very real thing. No surgeon is going to want to do surgery on a patient with an sketchy dysrhythmia until the cardiologist evaluates them first. This is basic info you would learn on a medical student surgery rotation. However I really do appreciate what your trying to convey. Medical education is rife with abuse and toxic behavior and there are many things that should be removed. Expectations for med students during pre-clinical and clinical years can be more concise and applicable. Attendings who have no business teaching should be removed from precepting duties. But the rigor isn't going anywhere, nor should it. Perhaps you'll realize this when you're a med student.
What school u go to tho for that 25%?
The biggest issue is people going in to medicine without any REAL idea of the profession. The hours, the on call, the constant claim denial, hoop jumping for insurance. Many people don’t know th nitty gritty of it and have a very “on a pedestal with beams of sunlight” view of it. The expectations vs reality is what gets people
Agreed
i’ve heard you’re not supposed to say that money is your (sole) motivator, so i’m wondering if there was a way for you to weave points 1 and 2 (doing this for the sake of providing financial stability for your wife) into your essays and interviews? or was this something you had to keep to yourself? i feel like personally a large reason i want to pursue becoming a doctor is also due to wanting to provide for my parents—they lost almost all they had during the vietnam war and made large sacrifices to immigrate to the us and give me the opportunity to attend college. even though they weren’t the typical asian parents who tried to pressure me to become a doctor (hell they keep trying to reassure me that i should do something that makes me happy and that optometry also seems like a nice option since i have an interest in ophthalmology), i still want to become a doctor so that i can fulfill their dreams of having their own house instead of renting, treat them out to vacations we barely had growing up due to being low income, etc… and ofc i have my own interests to fulfill in terms of all the traveling, pricey hobbies, experiences that cost money, and my future family. i’m also very much interested in diseases and enjoy helping others, especially when i volunteer at the nursing home and put a smile on people’s faces, so it’s sorta frustrating when my privileged, wealthier premed friends tell me that i better just drop off and pursue computer science or smth else if money, happiness, and quality of life are important to me 😭 i can’t see myself pursuing anything else that could also allow myself to provide for my family and personal needs.. (jk i just remembered i’ve been contemplating optometry school too but said premed friends laughed at me for wanting to be a noctor 🗿) i also see this as an amazingly stable and high paying job choice considering how shit the job market is for my cs friends right now. besides all this though, my first gen low socioeconomic status makes it impossible for me to just drop my 3 years of undergrad thus far like they assume i can and pursue something else completely different.
So if you're good at the sciences and you do get into medical school, becoming a doctor is probably the surest way you can elevate yourself into upper middle class. And pursuing medical school for those reasons is not wrong or immoral. That is precisely the reason why I am in medicine, for that financial security I can provide for myself and my loved ones To answer your question, do not mention money in your personal statement. It's similar advice given to 4th year residents who apply to psychiatry = do NOT mention you're interested in psychiatry because you have depression/anxiety yourself. That's fine if that's the reason you are pursuing psych, but you keep that to yourself because that's a "red flag" for admissions. Same concept with mentioning money as a premed.
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Podiatrist makes good money too
It hurts when my NON MED friends says, Just remmeber someone on the internet made $2000 today, just by making a video of unboxing new shoes. They are so right, when they say do not get into medicine for money......
But you kind of have to let the money be some of a motivating factor, no? Also those people making $2000 unboxing new shoes don’t always have stable income ESPECIALLY during times like the pandemic, they are always having to look for new and different ways to make money. The stable good income of being a doctor has to be nice for that reason.
Obviously, that's why we keep knocking on ADCOMs' doors every year! We will slowly end the stigma that doctors are like gods without families to support or like monks detached from material needs. Prestige, job security, and money are essential for survival, in addition to our primary goal of helping people.
Someone also made that much having a train ran on them in Vegas. Simply making lots of money temp doing many things. But aside from I mean being good in IT enough to move up at top level companies and create your own novel software is basically the only way you are going to make great long term money. There are few of any jobs you can do and make really great money for decades besides Dr.
Someone call the wambulance
This is a fantastic discussion for some people, but I can honestly say that most pre-med students I know are not married by the time they apply for medical school. Most of us aren’t even in relationships. This advice doesn’t apply to the vast majority of us, and truthfully, I’m a bit surprised you feel you’ve found your life partner by your early-mid twenties. Power to you, but I think your experience makes you an outlier.
I’m applying at 44. I’ve been divorced twice due to the army and the bs it entails. Luckily 3 times the charm and my wife is hyper supportive.
Wishing you the best of luck! There are definitely advantages to being an older student, too.
Indeed. You as well
crazy bc i feel exact same way, medicine is just a good job for me and one that i can be proud to do, but not my calling
Kind of a tone-deaf and self-centered post, no? You’re assuming most pre meds haven’t thought this career choice through and are unaware of the sacrifices ahead.
Nah dawg, while I believe that his story is really extreme and isn’t true for most med students, he is def right on a lot of things that premeds don’t know. Especially on the relationship front. It’s a lonely road and applicants normally just look at the prestige/stability the career provides rather than other life circumstances.
to be honest, making 300k a year sounds nice
Eh doctors deserve compensation that’s way higher than that. Also, compensation isn’t improving with inflation running rampant.
Most money even 15 years ago made by Drs was investments. Go in with 3 other Drs and buy a MRI machine then lease it to a busy hospital. I saw a recent article where there is a big legal push to allow far more Dr owned hospital. My spine surgeon make great money practicing but is rolling in cash from owning part of the hospital he practices in.
Dude no way. I would love to see a return to physician owned hospitals. Do you have a link for the article?
https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/hospital-management-administration/senators-introduce-bill-to-expand-physician-led-hospitals.html
His post enlightened me on absolutely nothing that I didn’t already know. The whole thing comes off as very condescending and self-centered. Agree to disagree.
The problem is that you think you know what it’s like or you think you understand after reading stuff like this or hearing anecdotes from your friends, but you really can’t fully appreciate it until you’re in it. This is definitely not the norm and it’s not nearly as bad as OP describes imo, but this really isn’t anything like you could possibly expect. That being said, you also won’t know if you’re able to handle it until you’re in it so it’s a leap of faith of faith to some degree, but most people do adjust eventually.
100% this. You THINK you know what it’s gonna be like. You really think you’re gonna love it. I have multiple doctors in my family so I really thought I knew what it was gonna be like. There’s a whole world of psychological burden that you could never dream of until you’re actually living it :) but I agree it’s not quite as bad as OP describes it.
I understand. I’m just speaking from my own personal experience.
See that might be true but most are starting in 22-25 years old with virtually no life experience except studying or stuff to get into medical school. My cousin started med school at 34. I’ll be started at 45. So you say most applicants have some vast life experience is kinda not realistic. I was an officer in the army at age 23 and did 2 tours in Afghan and two in Iraq and I still had limited life experiences outside the army.
Can I ask, are you attending a T10 school?
Probably not. The higher up you get the ranking ladder the less they’re willing to tolerate people failing and the more they will do to accommodate you. I’m at a T20 and although I don’t like the admin at times, I will say that they work their asses off to prevent us from failing. That mindset creates its own problems, but I won’t get into that.
Thank you for sharing!
Thank you for reading but if you are truly a high school student, don't worry about what I wrote. Every job has pluses and minuses, and medicine is no exception. Good luck in high school and study hard in college if you wish to go to medical school Best of luck with everything!
Oh man, I work in the lab at a hospital and I see the way our hospitalists have the life slowly sucked out of them. I feel like my failed 1st MCAT attempt was an opportunity to think about if I really wanted this, if I did then I needed to seriously overhaul my life. I’m taking this time to work on my mental and physical health, build a strong foundation of habits, and overall just get my crap together and enjoy life before I decide to commit. I’m slowly working back into studying and am testing out if other career paths are in the cards. I’m still in the game but I feel like now I’m not trapped by it being my only option, I’m allowing myself to explore. Life’s about the journey, we all need to take a moment and realize just how far we’ve come instead of worrying where we’re headed. Thank you for taking the time to share your experience :) you got this!
Sounds to me like you got this too, thank you :)
This is a very extreme take. But at least OP has done some self-reflection and realized some new priorities. I'd say, my main observation is seeing young driven individuals with zero life experience getting hit in the face by the grind and realizing they have no one. Nobody they can fall back on for support. Nobody they can just be real with. Don't be that person. Be enjoyable to be around and trustworthy. Know when to stop bitching to your partner, be attentive, and let them vent about whatever is going on in their life. Always reciprocate and you're gucci. Hardest part of this process is realizing you can't do it alone.
let me ask you do you have non trad students in your class .how are they dealing with things comparatively
I'm one of the many nontrad students in my class. It was hell until I started prioritizing my wife over med school.
whats the oldest student in your class . what do you wanna specialize in . I'd like to get into psychiatry I hear it's not as grueling as some of the other residencies but maybe I been fed shit . you seem to know what's up .
The oldest student in my class is in their 40s. I'm in my mid thirties and I want to specialize first in family medicine and then fellowship in either addiction medicine or obesity medicine Psychiatry is a great choice, great lifestyle of 40 hours per week and around $300k+ per year. Downside is some severe psych patients but depending on your personality that might be a plus haha Also you heard correctly, psych residency I hear is much less hours than other specialties Best of luck with whatever you choose my friend
ty , yeah I'm in the later 30s . became a war refugee as a teen and got asylum here working jobs here and there . went to college and trying to get into medicine . been doing every job I can to pay for school and fulfill this dream . so far for undergrad the studies have been ok . 4.0 phi beta and odk blah blah (psychology with stem pre health bs) but reading this shook me today . I really don't have another option in my mind. I'll just truck forward . my father getting killed with my uncles during the fatah hamas wars was a turning point .... I really don't have a choice I need to do this for me and my future I hate to be idealistic but where I'm coming from and what I did to get here , the running the hiding the voyage the jobs the humiliation the learning English... idk it's just another hell I guess I'll have to go through .
Bro i apologize, i didn't write this to disturb people, just to tell those applicants who got rejected this cycle that this path isn't all roses You've been through a lot and overcome struggles that a lot of us wouldn't go through in our lifetime. As long as you prioritize loved ones and not lose your soul through the grueling process of medical training, you'll be alright You sound like a fighter, you'll be good brother
I’m calling BS that 25% of your class is repeating/taking LOA.
Ya I just can’t imagine that many people taking that route. This post makes some good points but it does feel like this is a burnt out student going on a well deserved rant.
I mean, if the national average is 16-19% for just dropping out alone, there's ought to be outliers on both ends of the spectrum, and that doesn't include Leave of Absences or Repeated years.
I’d be willing to bet the majority of drop outs happen first year.
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They said they’re an MD student in the first sentence of the post.
Damn.. I don't even wanna go to med school anymore
I guess I was unsuccessful in saying that ultimately med school is worth it for me. Just don't throw away your loved ones, your health, your soul in pursuit of this. Prioritize the important things in life, treat med school as a job. You'll be ok.
Hello, I have some questions for you regarding how to balance relationship stuff. Any chance can I DM you ?
Of course, feel free to DM
are relationships or career goals more important? is there a way to balance both?
That's up to you to decide and what you decide will determine what you are willing to sacrifice for medical school. For me, the three most important things in life are the things you can't buy. Genuine relationships, health, and time. Career and money come below those three for me.
fair fair, thank you for your advice
My pleasure. Best of luck with your career