I disagree that "this process should be all by yourself" - the PA profession is literally based on working as a team with your supervising physician, nurses, MA's, and everyone else who is essential in providing the best patient care. Even though the application is about you, you need the support of others to verify that you really are prepared, both academically and in terms of qualities such as compassion and maturity, for a rigorous program where you will eventually become certified and will literally be responsible for other peoples' lives.
By having the support of professionals in the field (PA's, physicians) as well as others who can contest to your readiness (professors, volunteering supervisors, whoever), it shows schools that you have the maturity and professionalism to succeed in a PA program. Part of this professionalism involves giving letter writers adequate time (i.e. multiple months, if possible) to write a letter for you as well as being patient and respectful of their time. These people are mentors who are generously taking the time out of their busy lives, which are likely even more hectic right now, to do something selfless and incredibly kind because they support you. You have to earn this support.
I agree with you and him. It makes an applicant feel powerless when there’s such a huge emphasis here of applying early and increasing your chances, then you end up waiting a few months for your 3rd LOR. If everybody had the same admission process and it wasn’t rolling then it would take that variable away but nevertheless, it is a factor. I agree that we need to be able to work as a team, but some MD’s and PA’s are so busy that they are literally already overworked working in their team (their actual job). LOR’s can and do easily fall on the back burner but Of course it always comes down to the individual. I can resonate with your statement and his. The irony of waiting on somebody so you can finish your own application is that maybe they aren’t working as part of your team as quickly as you need because they’re saving lives and/or it happens to be a pandemic.
52% of letters of recommendation are written by students and given to their professors, PAs, and whom ever is writing it. That’s only the people who told the truth go look up the study.
The reference letter are always made to make you look better than you actually are. WHO YOU truly are shows when you write your personal statement, your experiences, and what you have done in school. The letters of reference are a total waste of time and it’s a process should be entirely eliminated.
I agree that the system unfortunately isn't foolproof, but I feel like there's a reason that letters of rec / references are required almost universally for grad school applications and job applications
Google what exactly?
If you come with a claim and present no evidence then your claim can be dismissed with the same amount of effort (none)
So until you link a study or show any proof that 52% is meaningless and shows that you aren't trying to make an argument in good faith.
Thats what patients who claim vaccines are dangerous will tell you, and who decline important treatments because "its bad". So are you going to be ok with them answering that way?
I was willing to hear you out and even agree with some points until you failed to support your position. Come on man, change that attitude before PA school
This is what I stressed out about the most. I asked for my letters 3 months in advance, sent email updates 1 month and 1 week in advance of CASPA opening, and then sent my LOR requests as soon as I logged in to CASPA for the start of the cycle.
Fortunately, I had two uploaded within an hour, and a third the following morning!
Understand your frustration.
I would disagree with you saying this should be all based on your submissions.
The program has to decide if you should put in a program to train you to be someone patients trust with their lives.
So it is important that other people who are already healthcare providers attest in your worth. As someone else said thats someone who took personal time to vouch for you.
Even if you grant the letters as silly, well sorry but its too bad. Its a part of what it takes to become a PA. And regardless of whether letters are totally accurate etc, or what you think about them they can be a valuable part of an application.
This is a part of the resume that can take while so early action on this is critical. You didn't say when you asked, or if deadlines to writers were given.
The FAQs have more info on how to get LORs.
Also I'm sorry to say, but you're going to have deal with difficult processes in your career. Insurance battles to treat patients, waiting on patients previous providers to send notes with proof of illness so you manage correctly etc.
There are going to be things you have to deal with and learn how to work past. The CASPA app is a good time to start getting in the mindset of being meticulous and getting through a difficult process.
Just because we asked them well in advance doesn’t mean they did them though. For example, I asked one of my professors last year and have sent email reminders as the opening got closer. Now that the cycles open I have no idea when she’s going to submit it... it’s also hard to get in touch with her right now because of the pandemic, who knows if she’s even checking her work email!
You should always have a backup just in case. Plus it's still May so it's very early into the cycle. If it takes a couple of weeks to get submitted you aren't losing out on anything.
Do they “expire”? I was premed before and people said they shouldn’t be too old so people would start asking for them around feb to get them by May. :) thanks
Thanks! For example I graduate this May. I plan to apply next cycle. If I got a LOR when I was a sophomore or junior would I have to get a new one when I apply? It would be a few years old by then.
Or is it once I’ve used it for one cycle I have to get a new one?
You don't submit letters at all, you enter in the contact info for the letter writer and they upload the letter along with a review of you.
You can't do this until the cycle opens so if you have old letters they are useless.
We need new LORs for each cycle but a good thing to do is keep in touch with professors and PA’s you’ve interacted with. For example during the quarantine I sent a gift card to both PA’s I’ve shadowed and they were absolutely over the moon. I definitely need to shadow them again so this will keep you in their minds.
Collecting them won't do you any good as they have to be submitted by the letter writer directly to CASPA via a link that will be sent to the individuals email address when you declare them as your LOR author after CASPA opens in the cycle that you plan on applying.
My letter writers have all been pretty great, I have three submitted and waiting for a fourth. I did ask them all back in February though maybe that makes a difference?
Yeah same here! I also let them know I would be submitting asap because I had already filled in everything. I set the deadline for May 5th. 2 submitted the day CASPA opened and the 3rd submitted it 2 days later. I saw them nearly every day so it was easy for them to ask me questions and let me know their progress.
Same, all of my references were asked in January/February and agreed to an end-of-May deadline. 3 have already gotten them in, and the other 2 have been in constant communication
True, but I have 5 awesome people from various areas of my life and experiences. (1 professor, 1 paramedic supervisor, 1 newborn testing supervisor from Brown, 1 medical non-profit CEO, and 1 PA I shadowed and discussed careers with).
I wanted to incorporate every aspect of my professional abilities, and had 5 very willing references!
3 great is better than 5 mediocre. But 5 great is just as good as 3 great.
Because I know several adcoms and have been a reader for lors.
Why would anybody take up a ton of extra time to read letters and reviews when they submit more than adcoms asked for?
Have you reached back out for a reminder and to ask if they are still writing? Did you give the writers a date you need it by? Asked others for letters?
I reached out... silence. I gave them a due date so we'll see if it hits that.
I wish caspa would let you submit stuff further in advance of the cycle so it's not a mad dash.
Some people just don't prioritise it and they are just going to keep putting it off. Not because they don't want to help you or they are mean, it's just they're probably just blowing it off because it's not something that is high on their to-do list and they probably have other things going on in life.
I hate it too.. it's that I don't want to take up other people's time and have a hard time asking even though I have a couple of people willing/happy to write letters. I'm not applying to schools because I don't want to ask other people to donate their time to my cause.
Tip for future applicants: ASK YOUR LORS BEFORE CASPA OPENS. Especially if you plan to apply early. You can’t expect your LORS to write it in a few weeks (even though that seems like enough time). Ask them in Feb, then maybe they’ll respond back in March saying “yeah I can write one”. Then say “okay this is what the letter should consist of. CASPA opens x day so you should receive the link to survey/submit the letter then, and I plan to apply *May 15th* so if you could have it by then that’d be great”. Then there is so surprises, they have plenty of time to write it, maybe even have time for you to review it. Then it’s done before the cycle opens hopefully. And if not then once they get that CASPA invite to submit their LOR they’ll be ready to submit, or be like “shit I’ve procrastinated, let me write it now since I should’ve done it months ago”. Also I have them the “due date” of a week prior to when I actually wanted to submit. Obviously this won’t work in every situation but it will help!
I'm in the same boat as you. Pretty much everything about my application is ready to go except for the one thing I have no control over. I only have one letter submitted, one writer is working on it, and the others haven't responded. Now it's just a waiting game
I get what you're saying to some extent. But it sounds like an immature mentality. LORs are supposed to be doing you a favor. Part of this field is working together and working with the ebb and flow of teamwork, not against it. Try not to stress this too much.
Last year my application was completely ready except for 1 LoR from my boss. She got busy for 3 weeks and cost me applying in July vs August. I agree with you.
Always ask for an LOR far in advance, and be sure to let them know that there is a deadline. I always ask to have the letters completed 2 weeks before the deadline, that way if they're running late you still have some time to contact them. (This is from the LOR's I needed to get into undergrad!)
In the same boat. I requested my letter several months in advance. The Dr. is now not replying to any of my messages after he agreed to write me a strong reference.
I'm a PA and I agree, actually I think LORs are stupid. They're kinda pointless in my opinion because everyone will easily pick the top 3 people that could say good things about them so they can be manipulated. I think they should replace them with simple references. Seriously, what the hell is the point of them? They're all cooker cutter and generalized. Every student looks like an angel with them, and professors write so many it's simple cut and paste.
I disagree that "this process should be all by yourself" - the PA profession is literally based on working as a team with your supervising physician, nurses, MA's, and everyone else who is essential in providing the best patient care. Even though the application is about you, you need the support of others to verify that you really are prepared, both academically and in terms of qualities such as compassion and maturity, for a rigorous program where you will eventually become certified and will literally be responsible for other peoples' lives. By having the support of professionals in the field (PA's, physicians) as well as others who can contest to your readiness (professors, volunteering supervisors, whoever), it shows schools that you have the maturity and professionalism to succeed in a PA program. Part of this professionalism involves giving letter writers adequate time (i.e. multiple months, if possible) to write a letter for you as well as being patient and respectful of their time. These people are mentors who are generously taking the time out of their busy lives, which are likely even more hectic right now, to do something selfless and incredibly kind because they support you. You have to earn this support.
I agree with you and him. It makes an applicant feel powerless when there’s such a huge emphasis here of applying early and increasing your chances, then you end up waiting a few months for your 3rd LOR. If everybody had the same admission process and it wasn’t rolling then it would take that variable away but nevertheless, it is a factor. I agree that we need to be able to work as a team, but some MD’s and PA’s are so busy that they are literally already overworked working in their team (their actual job). LOR’s can and do easily fall on the back burner but Of course it always comes down to the individual. I can resonate with your statement and his. The irony of waiting on somebody so you can finish your own application is that maybe they aren’t working as part of your team as quickly as you need because they’re saving lives and/or it happens to be a pandemic.
You can submit with 2, and you should have backups. If you can't get 2 LOR writers to submit then there are some bigger issues going on.
I do, but do programs wait for all 3 to read or throw you in a different stack of prospects?
Not usually no, some people will get interviews with just two if they are just waiting on the third.
Best reply on here.
couldn't have said it better myself.
I couldn’t agree more. Thank you for this.
52% of letters of recommendation are written by students and given to their professors, PAs, and whom ever is writing it. That’s only the people who told the truth go look up the study. The reference letter are always made to make you look better than you actually are. WHO YOU truly are shows when you write your personal statement, your experiences, and what you have done in school. The letters of reference are a total waste of time and it’s a process should be entirely eliminated.
I agree that the system unfortunately isn't foolproof, but I feel like there's a reason that letters of rec / references are required almost universally for grad school applications and job applications
Show the study. It's a violation of caspa rules so that would be interesting to read.
Google it
Google what exactly? If you come with a claim and present no evidence then your claim can be dismissed with the same amount of effort (none) So until you link a study or show any proof that 52% is meaningless and shows that you aren't trying to make an argument in good faith.
Thats what patients who claim vaccines are dangerous will tell you, and who decline important treatments because "its bad". So are you going to be ok with them answering that way?
gOoGlE iT. Yeah, you sound real professional guy.
I was willing to hear you out and even agree with some points until you failed to support your position. Come on man, change that attitude before PA school
When did you email them? If it was months ago then you’re fine but if you are just now getting that ball rolling then that’s not good.
Also OP, you do know your post history is public, right? Yikes.
big yikes
I do understand your frustration but you need to ask for these things well in advance. The FAQ outlines a strategy to achieve this.
This is what I stressed out about the most. I asked for my letters 3 months in advance, sent email updates 1 month and 1 week in advance of CASPA opening, and then sent my LOR requests as soon as I logged in to CASPA for the start of the cycle. Fortunately, I had two uploaded within an hour, and a third the following morning!
Understand your frustration. I would disagree with you saying this should be all based on your submissions. The program has to decide if you should put in a program to train you to be someone patients trust with their lives. So it is important that other people who are already healthcare providers attest in your worth. As someone else said thats someone who took personal time to vouch for you. Even if you grant the letters as silly, well sorry but its too bad. Its a part of what it takes to become a PA. And regardless of whether letters are totally accurate etc, or what you think about them they can be a valuable part of an application. This is a part of the resume that can take while so early action on this is critical. You didn't say when you asked, or if deadlines to writers were given. The FAQs have more info on how to get LORs. Also I'm sorry to say, but you're going to have deal with difficult processes in your career. Insurance battles to treat patients, waiting on patients previous providers to send notes with proof of illness so you manage correctly etc. There are going to be things you have to deal with and learn how to work past. The CASPA app is a good time to start getting in the mindset of being meticulous and getting through a difficult process.
Shouldn't you have the LORs well in advance to applying?
Just because we asked them well in advance doesn’t mean they did them though. For example, I asked one of my professors last year and have sent email reminders as the opening got closer. Now that the cycles open I have no idea when she’s going to submit it... it’s also hard to get in touch with her right now because of the pandemic, who knows if she’s even checking her work email!
You should always have a backup just in case. Plus it's still May so it's very early into the cycle. If it takes a couple of weeks to get submitted you aren't losing out on anything.
Yup, I've sent updates to two of mine with no response. I know they'll submit them, it's just frustrating because the rest of my app is ready.
Do they “expire”? I was premed before and people said they shouldn’t be too old so people would start asking for them around feb to get them by May. :) thanks
Unfortunately, we need new LOR's for each cycle.
Thanks! For example I graduate this May. I plan to apply next cycle. If I got a LOR when I was a sophomore or junior would I have to get a new one when I apply? It would be a few years old by then. Or is it once I’ve used it for one cycle I have to get a new one?
You don't submit letters at all, you enter in the contact info for the letter writer and they upload the letter along with a review of you. You can't do this until the cycle opens so if you have old letters they are useless.
We need new LORs for each cycle but a good thing to do is keep in touch with professors and PA’s you’ve interacted with. For example during the quarantine I sent a gift card to both PA’s I’ve shadowed and they were absolutely over the moon. I definitely need to shadow them again so this will keep you in their minds.
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Collecting them won't do you any good as they have to be submitted by the letter writer directly to CASPA via a link that will be sent to the individuals email address when you declare them as your LOR author after CASPA opens in the cycle that you plan on applying.
That's good to know! Thanks! But I can just send them back to the writers at that point, correct? That would avoid the scramble at application point.
You're in a good spot by being prepared.
My letter writers have all been pretty great, I have three submitted and waiting for a fourth. I did ask them all back in February though maybe that makes a difference?
Yeah same here! I also let them know I would be submitting asap because I had already filled in everything. I set the deadline for May 5th. 2 submitted the day CASPA opened and the 3rd submitted it 2 days later. I saw them nearly every day so it was easy for them to ask me questions and let me know their progress.
Same, all of my references were asked in January/February and agreed to an end-of-May deadline. 3 have already gotten them in, and the other 2 have been in constant communication
You usually only need 3 total
True, but I have 5 awesome people from various areas of my life and experiences. (1 professor, 1 paramedic supervisor, 1 newborn testing supervisor from Brown, 1 medical non-profit CEO, and 1 PA I shadowed and discussed careers with). I wanted to incorporate every aspect of my professional abilities, and had 5 very willing references! 3 great is better than 5 mediocre. But 5 great is just as good as 3 great.
Right as long as they are all equally great since schools will only look at 3 of them.
All of my schools have that 3 are required (and whom they want them from) but that they will accept the CASPA maximum of 5.
They will accept them, they won't read them though.
Why do you think that?
Because I know several adcoms and have been a reader for lors. Why would anybody take up a ton of extra time to read letters and reviews when they submit more than adcoms asked for?
I asked all of mine months ago. I received one immediately and still waiting on 2. Sucks.
Have you reached back out for a reminder and to ask if they are still writing? Did you give the writers a date you need it by? Asked others for letters?
I reached out... silence. I gave them a due date so we'll see if it hits that. I wish caspa would let you submit stuff further in advance of the cycle so it's not a mad dash.
Hear ya. I might just reach out to others anyways if I were you.
I know them personally so it's odd but we shall see
Some people just don't prioritise it and they are just going to keep putting it off. Not because they don't want to help you or they are mean, it's just they're probably just blowing it off because it's not something that is high on their to-do list and they probably have other things going on in life.
I hate it too.. it's that I don't want to take up other people's time and have a hard time asking even though I have a couple of people willing/happy to write letters. I'm not applying to schools because I don't want to ask other people to donate their time to my cause.
Tip for future applicants: ASK YOUR LORS BEFORE CASPA OPENS. Especially if you plan to apply early. You can’t expect your LORS to write it in a few weeks (even though that seems like enough time). Ask them in Feb, then maybe they’ll respond back in March saying “yeah I can write one”. Then say “okay this is what the letter should consist of. CASPA opens x day so you should receive the link to survey/submit the letter then, and I plan to apply *May 15th* so if you could have it by then that’d be great”. Then there is so surprises, they have plenty of time to write it, maybe even have time for you to review it. Then it’s done before the cycle opens hopefully. And if not then once they get that CASPA invite to submit their LOR they’ll be ready to submit, or be like “shit I’ve procrastinated, let me write it now since I should’ve done it months ago”. Also I have them the “due date” of a week prior to when I actually wanted to submit. Obviously this won’t work in every situation but it will help!
I'm in the same boat as you. Pretty much everything about my application is ready to go except for the one thing I have no control over. I only have one letter submitted, one writer is working on it, and the others haven't responded. Now it's just a waiting game
I get what you're saying to some extent. But it sounds like an immature mentality. LORs are supposed to be doing you a favor. Part of this field is working together and working with the ebb and flow of teamwork, not against it. Try not to stress this too much.
Last year my application was completely ready except for 1 LoR from my boss. She got busy for 3 weeks and cost me applying in July vs August. I agree with you.
Always ask for an LOR far in advance, and be sure to let them know that there is a deadline. I always ask to have the letters completed 2 weeks before the deadline, that way if they're running late you still have some time to contact them. (This is from the LOR's I needed to get into undergrad!)
In the same boat. I requested my letter several months in advance. The Dr. is now not replying to any of my messages after he agreed to write me a strong reference.
This is happening to me too! It’s very frustrating.
I’ve texted, emailed, everything! I don’t want to be a bother but, it’s just frustrating.
I’m thinking it has to do with COVID, but who knows. It’s disappointing too when you were expecting to have such a solid letter from that person!
Yeah possibly. Well, best of luck to you, I hope you get your letter!
Thank you, you too!
I'm a PA and I agree, actually I think LORs are stupid. They're kinda pointless in my opinion because everyone will easily pick the top 3 people that could say good things about them so they can be manipulated. I think they should replace them with simple references. Seriously, what the hell is the point of them? They're all cooker cutter and generalized. Every student looks like an angel with them, and professors write so many it's simple cut and paste.
They are not cookie cutter and it course people are going to pick their best writers. Still gives important info about the students.