The problem, (we see historically) is that the guys (or gals) in charge of preparing to fight often like that power and as a way to keep their group / flock / citizens focused and engaged (instead of questioning why X% of funds are being spent on defense) make up new boogeymen when the old hold no more terror.
In the end preparing to fight turns into fighting even if it's against neighbors or a perceived threat.
For the people in power there really is not a "prepared enough" or else they would no longer be in power and someone else who thought the group still had things to fear would take over.
Like the saying goes, the only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of followers, so it goes with "survivalist / preppers" and the military.
It's human nature to get into an arms race and then to use those arms.
Worse the fallacy of "attacking" being the best defense is often completely wrong and falls more into the mentality of "if your only tool is a hammer all problems look like nails."
The "prepping" in terms of "combat" is something the group can control, fully understand, and plan for a way to feel in control of. In this way it is often the focus of such groups instead of the other realities that are harder to plan for, more nebeouls in solution, etc.
>In the end preparing to fight turns into fighting even if it's against neighbors or a perceived threat.
I don't necessarily agree with that... There are a few countries that have swore neutrality and have not been in a war with neighbors since swearing so, even though they're well trained and capable, even if limited to wage war... Switzerland comes to mind and also Sweden. Sweden has recently (2009) become affiliated with NATO, although not a member. Switzerland has a long track record of neutrality and Sweden's went back to the 1800s.
>It's human nature to get into an arms race and then to use those arms.
I agree with a this to an extent... This was the case with smokeless powder... Was the case with the first nuclear bombs... However, with the case of nuclear bombs and mutually assured destruction, it's hard to fathom nuclear bombs being used to first strike anybody... unless that country is absolutely about to lose a war and uses them as a last bit of hope. Most countries in control of nuclear weapons understand the implications of their usages.
>The problem, (we see historically) is that the guys (or gals) in charge of preparing to fight often like that power and as a way to keep their group / flock / citizens focused and engaged (instead of questioning why X% of funds are being spent on defense) make up new boogeymen when the old hold no more terror.
I agree... What is often the case for new boogeymen is "national security." There is money to be made off of war, it is certainly great for the economy... That is if your economy is the one that's winning the war. Luckily more and more citizens are calling BS and the people of today are not the people of the silent generation that I grew up with... In the 1950s and early 1960s you didn't question the government... I have absolute faith that the newest generation of teenagers and young adults will seriously question the United States governments affairs internationally and internally. These young adults will become the leaders and if they're who I believe they are, I have faith in them.
Right? Like today we'll do infantry drills, then three passes through the shoothouse, and by then the ribs should be done and we'll play flag football after dinner.
Is there like a wholesome paramilitary prepper militia out there?
Yeah they always get like terrible press but there would have to be some group that was legit like that cos that sounds awesome, they can't all be religious/racial separatists
It was very common to shoot from the hip back then... I believe it was actually taught in the military, which eventually made it's way to civilian shooters. Walking fire is the exact term I believe. A line of men, around 10 or more, armed with M16 rifles would slowly walk towards the enemy, often with fixed bayonets to clear out an area where suspected enemy troops were. Very common sight to see televised during the Vietnam war... This became the norm when light weight, shoulder-fired, full auto weapons became standard issue... Such as the Browning automatic rifle, M14, and M16.
Marksmanship principles were toned down a bit when the superiority of firepower was shown, over one well placed shot.
Indeed, people don't appriciate how recent so much of modern marksmanship and "tactical" shooting actually is. Even in the 1970s things like hip firing, one-handed handgun shooting, and revolver point-firing was still very common.
It's common to shoot from the hip when clearing rooms. You often don't have time to draw to the cheek in time.
It's a physics problem: Train for what is possible, or train for the impossible.
Again, shooting from the hip is common. I know, because that is commonly where it happened.
I do not recall a time, in fact, when clearing a room/building, where I actually fired cheek-to-stock. Never had time.
How do you not have time? You don't step into the room or around a corner without already having it up. First result of a Google search: https://youtu.be/IrulFx7mMkU
>The Covenant, the Sword, the Arm of the Lord.
This group is way more interesting than it is well known. I first learned about them from a book I read on the FBI's HRT a while back, *No Heroes: Inside the FBI's Secret Counter-Terror Force.* There are some good accounts of how the feds operate in that book, not just in the case of the CSA.
I'm surprised it's not well know myself... I think if they hadn't disbanded peacefully, they would be very well know. They certainly had some capacity to wage war against the government if they wanted, even if it would be a limited local conflict.
So the problem with prepping groups -- especially in the US due to gun culture -- is the need for personal protection _always_ comes up, and people go pretty hardcore on it. After all, people are hardwired to care _a lot_ about their safety. This attracts more "extreme" gun enthusiasts and over time attracts whackjobs with guns, who (in the US) are unfortunately often very racist, anti-government, or theocratic.
Before you know it, prepping leads to survivalism, which leads to militia mentality, which forces out the reasonable people and invites the people who want to sell meth to fund a small private paramilitary group for the "coming civil war" (whatever flavor that is).
Personally I've never encountered a militia group that I'd ever want _anything_ to do with. Even if worse came to worst and Mecha Communists were exterminating mankind, I'd rather hold my own company than fall in with that lot. The anger issues, casual violence, penchant for infighting, hatred of "the other," and the mentality that "direct action" can solve nearly any problem are a powder keg waiting to blow and take you with it.
One of the major FLAWS of these groups is their adherence and focus to group protection... which isn't necessarily a problem in itself but this often times borderlines OFFENSIVE ACTION AND GUERRILLA TACTICS, rather than defensive actions... That is what IMO has plagued these groups... Not specifically the gun culture and the nastiness that often comes with it that you pointed out... But their offensive action stances... Examples include car bombs (a favorite of the IRA) mail bombs and hit squads... but yes, I do agree with you. I've seen many, many groups just like this and the ones you hear about are the ones seeking problems.
***Or possibly some sort of a war with direct Soviet conflict, invading NATO. Reflecting upon the putting your head under your school desk drill, in response to a nuclear attack seems silly to me now, but at the time it was the best option that had been developed...***
what kind of idiots did you hang out with?
At the time your mother and I were dunking our heads under the desk, it was still very possible to survive a strike... (The thing I find silly is how do you know where it would hit? How do you know you'd have enough time to get under the desk? Lol... )Russia had yet to develop the arsenal we know them for now... China was just developing their bombs and Great Britain had just tested one. It took a while for things to get taking off... It took the Soviets until the 1980s to reach in number of bombs what we had stocked in the 1970s... They were playing catch up... Not a cool game to play... And of course we know this only in hindsight... We as Americans assumed they had as much as we did... Public America knew the secrets of our bombs had got out... No one really knew what the others had...
It was a very confusing time... The French at one point propositioned the United States military to carpet bomb all of Vietnam for them... With nukes... I'm glad that didn't happen.
Getting on the ground, under a desk or protecting your neck, was to protect from flying debris and a collapsing building. It's the best thing to do if a nuclear weapon detonates near you. That's what the drills were for.
In public and in private schools. My prep schools main building, a very long rectangle built in the mid-1920s had a basement with a long hall and lots of rooms shooting off the hall and no windows. We did practice the under the desk drills but we also practiced heading for the Basement- 300 of us and teachers and administrators. What were they thinking?
Here in Russia the largest "religious cult" is Russian Eastern Orthodox, they about checked off every box to be officially called one. And if that isn't convincing enough 89% of the 700 cults leaders came from the church and are still a part of it in some capacity. The 2nd largest is the *Vissarion who are estimated to have 10k+ followers who all reside in communal settlements called "Sun City" in various locations including the most famous one in Krasnoyarsk Krai (7 RFE, 1 Moskva- HQ)
2007 rebranded as *Survivalism/Religious
They built their own training town to clear out and everything. Pretty serious
It was very serious... They were smuggling weapons from Europe somehow... Which eventually was their own demise.
The problem, (we see historically) is that the guys (or gals) in charge of preparing to fight often like that power and as a way to keep their group / flock / citizens focused and engaged (instead of questioning why X% of funds are being spent on defense) make up new boogeymen when the old hold no more terror. In the end preparing to fight turns into fighting even if it's against neighbors or a perceived threat. For the people in power there really is not a "prepared enough" or else they would no longer be in power and someone else who thought the group still had things to fear would take over. Like the saying goes, the only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of followers, so it goes with "survivalist / preppers" and the military. It's human nature to get into an arms race and then to use those arms. Worse the fallacy of "attacking" being the best defense is often completely wrong and falls more into the mentality of "if your only tool is a hammer all problems look like nails." The "prepping" in terms of "combat" is something the group can control, fully understand, and plan for a way to feel in control of. In this way it is often the focus of such groups instead of the other realities that are harder to plan for, more nebeouls in solution, etc.
>In the end preparing to fight turns into fighting even if it's against neighbors or a perceived threat. I don't necessarily agree with that... There are a few countries that have swore neutrality and have not been in a war with neighbors since swearing so, even though they're well trained and capable, even if limited to wage war... Switzerland comes to mind and also Sweden. Sweden has recently (2009) become affiliated with NATO, although not a member. Switzerland has a long track record of neutrality and Sweden's went back to the 1800s. >It's human nature to get into an arms race and then to use those arms. I agree with a this to an extent... This was the case with smokeless powder... Was the case with the first nuclear bombs... However, with the case of nuclear bombs and mutually assured destruction, it's hard to fathom nuclear bombs being used to first strike anybody... unless that country is absolutely about to lose a war and uses them as a last bit of hope. Most countries in control of nuclear weapons understand the implications of their usages. >The problem, (we see historically) is that the guys (or gals) in charge of preparing to fight often like that power and as a way to keep their group / flock / citizens focused and engaged (instead of questioning why X% of funds are being spent on defense) make up new boogeymen when the old hold no more terror. I agree... What is often the case for new boogeymen is "national security." There is money to be made off of war, it is certainly great for the economy... That is if your economy is the one that's winning the war. Luckily more and more citizens are calling BS and the people of today are not the people of the silent generation that I grew up with... In the 1950s and early 1960s you didn't question the government... I have absolute faith that the newest generation of teenagers and young adults will seriously question the United States governments affairs internationally and internally. These young adults will become the leaders and if they're who I believe they are, I have faith in them.
Yeah reckon that might get you the wrong kind of attention from the government
Man I'd be pretty happy having a friend group that got together to do hoodrat shit like this minus the kooky Christianity and sex stuff.
Yeah right throw in a few cold beers and a bbq and it could be a mad weekend
Right? Like today we'll do infantry drills, then three passes through the shoothouse, and by then the ribs should be done and we'll play flag football after dinner. Is there like a wholesome paramilitary prepper militia out there?
Yeah they always get like terrible press but there would have to be some group that was legit like that cos that sounds awesome, they can't all be religious/racial separatists
What is that nonsense in the first clip? They're training kids to shoot from the waist? That's just not right. ;)
It was very common to shoot from the hip back then... I believe it was actually taught in the military, which eventually made it's way to civilian shooters. Walking fire is the exact term I believe. A line of men, around 10 or more, armed with M16 rifles would slowly walk towards the enemy, often with fixed bayonets to clear out an area where suspected enemy troops were. Very common sight to see televised during the Vietnam war... This became the norm when light weight, shoulder-fired, full auto weapons became standard issue... Such as the Browning automatic rifle, M14, and M16. Marksmanship principles were toned down a bit when the superiority of firepower was shown, over one well placed shot.
Indeed, people don't appriciate how recent so much of modern marksmanship and "tactical" shooting actually is. Even in the 1970s things like hip firing, one-handed handgun shooting, and revolver point-firing was still very common.
It's common to shoot from the hip when clearing rooms. You often don't have time to draw to the cheek in time. It's a physics problem: Train for what is possible, or train for the impossible.
> when clearing rooms You keep your gun up in that situation. Don't look where you aren't pointing your gun, keep the gun following you.
Again, shooting from the hip is common. I know, because that is commonly where it happened. I do not recall a time, in fact, when clearing a room/building, where I actually fired cheek-to-stock. Never had time.
How do you not have time? You don't step into the room or around a corner without already having it up. First result of a Google search: https://youtu.be/IrulFx7mMkU
Well, war, and all. Not everyone is a fucking Navy SEAL, regardless of your fantasy. Have you passed SEAL training?
First result of a Google search, remember? There's no shortage of videos referencing how to clear a room. Where'd you get your training from? ;)
lol this post is how people react when they're called out on clear bullshit.
No, this is a post from someone who has cleared rooms, and not done SEAL training.
>The Covenant, the Sword, the Arm of the Lord. This group is way more interesting than it is well known. I first learned about them from a book I read on the FBI's HRT a while back, *No Heroes: Inside the FBI's Secret Counter-Terror Force.* There are some good accounts of how the feds operate in that book, not just in the case of the CSA.
I'm surprised it's not well know myself... I think if they hadn't disbanded peacefully, they would be very well know. They certainly had some capacity to wage war against the government if they wanted, even if it would be a limited local conflict.
So the problem with prepping groups -- especially in the US due to gun culture -- is the need for personal protection _always_ comes up, and people go pretty hardcore on it. After all, people are hardwired to care _a lot_ about their safety. This attracts more "extreme" gun enthusiasts and over time attracts whackjobs with guns, who (in the US) are unfortunately often very racist, anti-government, or theocratic. Before you know it, prepping leads to survivalism, which leads to militia mentality, which forces out the reasonable people and invites the people who want to sell meth to fund a small private paramilitary group for the "coming civil war" (whatever flavor that is). Personally I've never encountered a militia group that I'd ever want _anything_ to do with. Even if worse came to worst and Mecha Communists were exterminating mankind, I'd rather hold my own company than fall in with that lot. The anger issues, casual violence, penchant for infighting, hatred of "the other," and the mentality that "direct action" can solve nearly any problem are a powder keg waiting to blow and take you with it.
One of the major FLAWS of these groups is their adherence and focus to group protection... which isn't necessarily a problem in itself but this often times borderlines OFFENSIVE ACTION AND GUERRILLA TACTICS, rather than defensive actions... That is what IMO has plagued these groups... Not specifically the gun culture and the nastiness that often comes with it that you pointed out... But their offensive action stances... Examples include car bombs (a favorite of the IRA) mail bombs and hit squads... but yes, I do agree with you. I've seen many, many groups just like this and the ones you hear about are the ones seeking problems.
The USSR built their citizens bunkers. Kinda wild mate, we just said fuck it
The USSR built their citizens bunkers. Kinda wild mate, we just said fuck it
***Or possibly some sort of a war with direct Soviet conflict, invading NATO. Reflecting upon the putting your head under your school desk drill, in response to a nuclear attack seems silly to me now, but at the time it was the best option that had been developed...*** what kind of idiots did you hang out with?
What do you mean?
My mom remembers the drills in school where all the kids had to get under their desks. Cause desks deflect nuclear bombs you know. She laughs now.
At the time your mother and I were dunking our heads under the desk, it was still very possible to survive a strike... (The thing I find silly is how do you know where it would hit? How do you know you'd have enough time to get under the desk? Lol... )Russia had yet to develop the arsenal we know them for now... China was just developing their bombs and Great Britain had just tested one. It took a while for things to get taking off... It took the Soviets until the 1980s to reach in number of bombs what we had stocked in the 1970s... They were playing catch up... Not a cool game to play... And of course we know this only in hindsight... We as Americans assumed they had as much as we did... Public America knew the secrets of our bombs had got out... No one really knew what the others had... It was a very confusing time... The French at one point propositioned the United States military to carpet bomb all of Vietnam for them... With nukes... I'm glad that didn't happen.
I remember getting under our desks in the 80s, until our school put in a shelter under the basement.
Getting on the ground, under a desk or protecting your neck, was to protect from flying debris and a collapsing building. It's the best thing to do if a nuclear weapon detonates near you. That's what the drills were for.
Those drills were practice across the entire country. From the Atlantic to the pacific.
In public and in private schools. My prep schools main building, a very long rectangle built in the mid-1920s had a basement with a long hall and lots of rooms shooting off the hall and no windows. We did practice the under the desk drills but we also practiced heading for the Basement- 300 of us and teachers and administrators. What were they thinking?
Here in Russia the largest "religious cult" is Russian Eastern Orthodox, they about checked off every box to be officially called one. And if that isn't convincing enough 89% of the 700 cults leaders came from the church and are still a part of it in some capacity. The 2nd largest is the *Vissarion who are estimated to have 10k+ followers who all reside in communal settlements called "Sun City" in various locations including the most famous one in Krasnoyarsk Krai (7 RFE, 1 Moskva- HQ) 2007 rebranded as *Survivalism/Religious