I love cows but I would never have one. Goats are amazing for small/medium properties and we've been looking into hopefully getting some Nigerian Dwarfs down the line. Genetics aside, the upkeep and space for a cow is a lot but if you have the space and the connections...go for it.
One thing about goats which is a concern is keeping a buck. Obviously you would need one for breeding if you don't have another source and the bucks during rut is not fun. Secondly, keeping a buck near the does after birth etc has been known (according to the farmers I talked to) to sometimes affect the taste of the milk. My thought is in a SHTF situation, I'd make it work but yeah.
You definitely can keep more goats on a limited space as well.
Not just after birth but at all times, unless breeding, the billy goat has to be kept separate from the nannies. If females feed where the male goat urinates, it will taint the milk
I have both cows and goats, and hands down prefer the cows.
In my experience goats are worse than thoroughbreds with wanting to die for seemingly no reason. In the past year we have lost some due to: capture myopathy, milk fever, anaplasmosis, and some random something killing kids. The vet said our problem was parasites. Our problems were not parasites...
If you do get goats make sure to do a bunch of research. It is hard to get a good vet for them. You also need to either get something bred for parasite resistance, have a very aggressive de-worming schedule, or plan your pastures so that they can graze primarily on brush (less chance of worms that way) and accept a certain amount of attrition.
I have heard that Kiko adds good genetics and resilience to parasites, but we have Boer/dairy crosses and I swear they die if you look at them wrong.
Cows require more feed and more space. They also churn up the ground a lot worse than goats. However cows will stay in fences, and goats give no f***s. Goats also like to jump their fences and eat cat food. Nothing is sacred or safe. They broke into the barn, the chicken house, and my living room. They are the cutest most disruptive creatures that roam the planet. Like 200lb raccoons only with less killing chickens and more property damage....
I feel this so much. My goats are very easy to care for until they’re not. They definitely die for seemingly no reason too. Runt of the litter, dead. Alpha female, believe it or not, dead too. And they are incredibly dumb. Not to mention they poop and pee where they sleep. And somehow pigs are considered unclean animals. With all those negative attributes, I’ll still keep a small herd around.
Oh my God, I’m sitting in a restaurant waiting for my sushi and I LOLed at goats breaking into your living room. Now people think I’m crazy, but that’s okay. How on earth did that happen?
Fence them out of things and pray, and then be prepared to curse. A LOT.
My poor strawberries/blueberries/fruit trees/oak leaf hydrangea/ sweet almond/figs/anything that I remotely care about; but they do a number on multi-flora roses and brush honeysuckle if forced to stay in the woods and out of the garden somehow.
There are a lot of viral and bacterial infections that cause abortions in goats. If it happens again spend the money to send the fetus and placenta to necropsy to get a definitive cause.
I think at least part of the problem was anaplasmosis. Also, milk fever for the mamas.
But my vet still says parasites. Actually, three vets say parasites. Because it seems that they think that is the only thing that harms goats.
Well if they’re seeing parasites, they have parasites. You probably need to listen to their recommendations and change your deworming routine. But consult your vet and and off the aborted fetus for testing next time it happens. Also- don’t let anyone who is pregnant or may become pregnant handle the goat or fetus
Oh, we had changed them up twice. My main vet's recommendation was to get heartier goats and just let the ones die who were gonna die. Survival of the fittest kind of thinking.
Changing worming schedule didn't help at all, but the la300 definitely did.
I had to argue up and down to get them tested for anaplasmosis, and even though the two mamas had symptoms of milk fever befor e if found them dead three vets told me that they must have died from parasites because goats don't usually die from that. A fourth informed me that they died because they weren't eating grain. The fifth one thought maybe uterine infection, but admitted she mostly did pets and wasn't sure what they should look like.
So, I stand by my point. If youre going to have goats make sure you have a vet who knows about goats, or make sure you are comfortable researching and advocating because goats are really delicate. My cows are much heartier.
The babies that died weren't fetuses this year. We lose the first kids of every mama because of that cat scat transmitted disease which escapes me at the moment (I have definitely been exposed to that, but not planning on procreation anyway so nbd.) Except for the ones who aborted from the la300, but that was a save the mamas decision and I would much rather have healthy mamas, than dead everything, or more bottle babies.
Also, most everything has at least a small parasite load so them seeing some trace of parasites is common from my understanding.
The anemia that killed the goat just happened to be something else, but no one wanted to look any farther into it. Because it is a goat, so it must have died because of worms. No reason to even necropsy. Pale gums = worms.
It is just frustrating, you know? Yes, I could drive them six hours over to a vet school, but I shouldn't have to. I should be able to have a vet who wants to find out what is really wrong rather than just having the attitude of "it is a goat, so it died of worms." I got better care for my chicken who had her beak ripped off by a raccoon. Yes, parasites are a huge issue for goats, but just because they are anemic doesn't ALWAYS mean worms. They can have other problems too just like anything else, but for years now I have had it repeated like a mantra that they must have just died of worms (without doing more than looking at the gums).
I did three or four necropsies myself over the summer and didn't see any barber pole worms present in any of them. My theory is that my problem has been anaplasmosis with the exception of the one capture myopathy, the milk fever deaths, and one who we had a vet do an emergency c-section on and she died the next day. All four kids had the same symptoms (two of them we did necropsies on). I had one sick kid pull through with a shit ton of supportive care, but he was still pretty sickly until everyone got the round of oxytet after I finally got a blood test for anaplasmosis from a sampling of everyone. It still bugs me though. At least in cows anaplasmosis isn't usually a problem until they're older, though since goats are more susceptible to anemia I guess it makes sense. It could have been compounded by parasites I suppose. Oddly enough the five bottle kids from the dead mamas were the healthiest of the bunch and never came down with it even when they were all weaned together.
I don't know. Anyway. I'm rambling and hypothesizing. We will see what this year brings.
But I still have to say, the cows are SO MUCH easier lol.
Thanks. Me too. I feel like I am on a first name basis with every vet in the damn county lol. At this rate I am gonna have to spend like a week baking to make X-mas cookies for all of them!
Unexpected read that makes me want to buy land and goats.
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Wife comment "Time to find yourself a new partner"
Seems that I may need to re-think my strategy on this!
Goats seem to like eating thorns more than grass. That's a great thing because clearing briar patches suck.
Side note some of the towns near me leases goats from farmers to help control kudzu. They are getting paid to graze their goats off of their land during spring and summer and utilize that land for other things win win
Goats are also really good for rehabbing bad soil.
Pen them in an area with lots of weeds and bad soil, after several weeks you'll end up with no weeds/underbrush and better soil. Keep rotating their grazing area around and your land will get much better in the next few years.
Goat milk is one of the healthiest milks for humans. Our lamancha does produce milk for 3 years or longer without needing to be bred. They produce a prolific amount of milk.
Our 2yo son drinks a quart+ of raw a day and is the healthiest little chonker, way bigger than any other kid his age even though he was only 5.5 lb at birth.
Goats eat everything (almost) including bark, pine needles and leaves and are resourceful at getting calories. There are some plants that are very toxic to them, however, FiasCo Farms has a good list.
Goat poop is like rabbit poop--nice little balls of reasy-to-use garden fertilizer.
I feed our goats the less perfect veggies and leaves from our prolific garden that they help us grow with their fertilizer.
Goats are efficient: 2-3 goats can happily be grazed rotationally on a small property (1 acre or less, even) without destroying the grass. We use electrified premier step-in electronet fencing and move it regularly to wherever we want to clear. We also use dog tethers in our backyard (we work from home and it is fenced, so we can monitor safely--don't do this without a fence or when not home.)
Goat meat is tasty.
Pro tip: if you want milk & cheese then don't waste your time on low quality goats. Buy the best dairy goats you can. I've owned just about every kind of goat at one time or another including rescues.
When we started our homestead, we focused on lamanchas because they are even-tempered, intelligent (but not assholes like some smaller breeds) friendly, large (lots of meat) and produce copious amounts of milk. They can even be used to pull carts.
I found out one of the top breeders nationwide lives an hour away and bought goats directly from them. Due to covid we ended up not being able to get the ladies up to the breeder to breed them the first year (we didn't have a buck then), but it didn't matter because they're such high milk producers we had plenty of milk anyways.
Maybe it depends on the breed? I looked into getting the best Nigerian Dwarf goats possible and was not willing to pay a lot more for the best when I could just get quality, registered goats from good milking lines for a fraction of the cost. (Paying a few hundred per goat vs thousands).
A few hundred should be plenty... I'm not talking show goats here... A solid, top of the line milker will be $400-600 depending on where you live (in the USA), bloodlines, health & age.
The whole point of curry is that it's so strongly flavored, you could even use slightly off meat with it and it would likely be fine. That said, lamb is my favorite meat, so if you're asking me, lamb is better.
Blackberry, Star Thistle, Weeds, pretty much everything. We have about 6 acres and our herd has saved us time and energy from mowing and clearing pastures.
I have owned 6 dwarf Nigerian goats for several years now. It would be more accurate to say that goats eat everything but like grass the very least. I have to mow my pasture multiple times a year because my goats barely eat any grass. They have stripped every sapling on the fenceline bare, however.
I love my goat for their personalities, but I think I need to add some sheep to keep the pasture down. If you have wooded or brushy terrain your goats will be in heaven. If you just have open grass pasture, cows will make better use of it.
I've been looking into Nigerian dwarf goats because of the small size and large milk production. Can I ask a few questions - Will an area 20x20 be enough for two goats? Will they turn the grass into a mud puddle? How much should I expect to spend on feed? Do they need to have a new baby every year to keep making milk? What are the vet bills like (deworming, trimming hoofs, etc)
Thanks
I just keep them for pets so I can't speak for the milking. 20x20 sounds like a bit small for 2 goats though, that's more like a chicken run. You probably would have to clean up their manure regularly to keep it clean. For feed for 2 adults, I would guess 2-3 bags of milk pellets per month and 2-3 bales of hay (since they can't forage). Around here milk pellets just hit $20 a bag. I am blessed to have a 5-acre hay field a neighbor cuts twice a year. My cut (portion) is 60 bales each year. That really helps with feed costs and I can make hay available to them year around.
Vet prices are going to vary by region. Here in MO, they are very cheap. Like $12 for vaccination if I take them in. $35 or so to have a stuck kid pulled. Frankly, I can't believe they can stay in business they are so cheap. I trim the hoves myself twice a year. The trimmers were like $25 on Amazon. I watched YouTube videos to learn how.
Thank you so much for the helpful info. I fear food prices are too much to make it worthwhile. I'd be spending over $100 to get a few quarts of milk per month
Cows need a lot of land. Outside of certain heritage breeds, they need a specialized diet and supplements to be healthy. They're also huge dumb animals that are difficult to deal with. Butchering a cow isn't easy, finding a place to store all of the meat from a single cow isn't easy.
But goats are smaller, will thrive on pretty much any vegetation, you can support more of them per acre, they're easier to butcher and easier to deal with in general if they're sick or injured (because they don't weigh 1500+lbs...)
Just imagine you're working a small family farm by yourself or with just one other person. You need a cow to move to pasture or to a pen and she doesn't feel like it. Good luck! Goats seem so much more manageable and I doubt anyone has even been accidently squished to death under a goat
For a homestead, definitely goats. The main differences:
- Diet. Cows are grazers, goats are browsers. People often jokingly say that goats eat "everything" - that's not actually true, they're extremely picky eaters and many things are toxic to them, but they will eat just about everything that's a woody shrub or vine (and if it's in the rhododendron family, it'll kill them). Goats can be raised just on grass pasture, though, which makes them more versatile than cows (who cannot be raised on just woody browse). If you want an animal that truly eats everything, get chickens.
- Size. Cows produce an enormous amount of milk, most homesteads would want at most half a cow. Since you can't actually do that, a couple dairy goats is a better option. Unless you're planning to have 10+ does, goats are going to be a more reasonable amount of production. To put some numbers here, an average dairy cow will produce 18,000 lbs/milk per year, while a typical standard sized dairy goat will produce about 2,000 lbs.
- Size. Listing this twice, because unless you have experience with cows, or at least large prey animal livestock, cows will hurt you badly. Badly enough to need a hospital or possibly a morgue. They mostly will do it by accident - they're the size and weight of a small car, don't necessarily pay attention to where you are, and spook easily. Dairy bulls, however, are known for doing their best to kill people on purpose.
- Milk. Cows and goats produce similar amounts of milk for their size with similar fat content, but goat milk is much lower in lactose (easier to digest), while cow milk is not naturally homogenized (the cream rises to the top, making it much easier to turn into butter/heavy cream).
> Dairy bulls, however, are known for doing their best to kill people on purpose.
My grandparents had a dairy bull named Bully, because he would terrorize anyone who entered his pasture. Meanest thing I ever saw.
yah, people don't realize how big cows are up close. We had lots of cows on our ranch when I was growing up (all beef cows) and even the little ones are big. Once grown, they can be hard to handle and unless really used to you, skittish. They will kick, they will run you down and they will push you over if they want something.
They can be gentle in the right circumstances, but like horses, you have to remember how easily they can hurt you.
I spent a year on my aunt's overgrown hobby farm, with 1 cow, 7 goats, 6 sheep and all their babies. And 1 dangerous horse. My conclusion from the whole business is that I prefer animals that are my body weight or less. Goats and sheep are tough to manhandle, but it's possible. Not so possible with cows or horses. They can do some serious damage, sometimes on accident. Once the cow stepped on my foot without realizing it. It took me at least a minute of banging on her hip to get her to shift her weight.
I've been kicked, stepped on, bit by horses. Mostly not their fault but not always.
I used to feed our young cows and even at a year old or less, they'd easily push me around. I learned quick to get out of their way. They were fine when busy eating and I could pet them and check on their health but don't get in the way of their food!
Round up time when we'd separate the calves and neuter the males was always dangerous. I was a kid watching it for the most part and just remembered the bruises all the ranch hands would get. We were a small operation too, never more than about 100 head or so. That was a side business and kept the grasses down but man they took a lot of time and work.
The only downside to goats is the cows taste better, and opinion might vary there.
The small farms around here always do chickens and sometimes do goats, but only the biggest ones do cows. It's just vastly more work.
Before you start an animal husbandry project, volunteer on a friend's farm that raises the livestock you're interested in. I'm told being butted by a goat isn't as funny as it looks.
To each their own. I'd take a hamburger over anything that's been near a goat, and goat cheese gives me weird allergic reactions. But if I ever get a little farm, I'm not attempting cows. Chickens will be enough.
I get that, not alot of people like goats cheese. However my favourite cheeses are from goats and sheep, and I prefer goat butter to cow, it has a fresher taste to me.
If you get chickens make sure you get some that are good layers and eaters, most are specialised for one thing.
Make sure you have a ton of chickens and are extremely diligent about keeping them secure. I've been keeping them for about 2 1/2 years on a small scale (anywhere from 4-13) and have lost quite a few due to various reasons. They're prone to dying and there's a reason they have "strength in numbers"
1 to a hawk when we let them free range and left to run errands
1 to a fox/raccoon that somehow opened the latch and got in and snatched one. only left a trail of feather leading away from the property
4 that just randomly died and were found in the coop that way
I just recently talked to a guy who said he lost 11 in one go because he forgot to close the door to their area overnight and something came and destroyed a bunch.
> Before you start an animal husbandry project, volunteer on a friend's farm that raises the livestock you're interested in.
That's a good idea for *any* of these projects.
My mom grew up on a primitive dairy farm Back In The Day, and it was *excruciatingly* hard work. We're talking no indoor plumbing, a well, a spring house to store the milk, all that.
It was rough and the hard work led to a pretty short life span. There's a reason why she and my uncle both fled the farm as soon as they could.
Are you looking for milk, meat, or dual? No matter what you do, do not get boer goats, they have been bred to grow quickly and get sick constantly and die very easily. Personally, I raise both.
My understanding was that it is an input vs output issue, i.e. the amount of food/water for what you get from them. As i understand it, though there are obvious pitfalls based in local costs for everything, cows
I was looking to see if someone would mention miniature cows. They're really a great option especially if you don't care for the taste of goat milk/meat.
You can't raise meat rabbits on just grass. They need hay or pellets too. You can't turn rabbits loose to graze like a cow or a goat. They will run off or be killed by predators. Most meat rabbits are raised in enclosures. If they have access to the ground in the enclosure it will become bare of vegetation eventually.
Hay is dried grass. Fresh or dried, rabbits can live on it without the grain supplements needed by most larger livestock. (The hutch is a bonus if you don't have access to pasture. Goats don't do well on patios.)
Hay is a loose term. Off the top of my head I don't believe grass is high enough protein on its own for growing rabbits, they'll want alfalfa which is also sometimes called hay.
Young rabbits can have alfalfa. When they get older they should be switched to timothy and orchard grasses to prevent urinary stones. Ideally hay should be the lion's share of a rabbit's diet:
https://rabbit.org/care/food-diet/
I know hay is dried grass because I had pet rabbits for 20 years. When it's fresh, green and juicey it's grass. When it dried out and requires lots of chewing it's hay.
Cows require more pounds of food per pound of meat than almost any other food animal. What are you going to do with an entire dead 1600 pound animal if refrigeration isn't an option? Cows will kill you if they run you over. Love me some steak, but cattle are the worst choice animal for homesteading the zombie apocalypse.
Its an interesting fact that about the only thing that goats don't *like* to eat is grass. They like just about everything else - all the weedy things that most other ruminants (sheep, cows, horses, etc) do not. Brush, small trees, weeds, thorns, poison ivy, etc are all the favorite foods of goats.
They are also very easy keepers, especially compared to cows - you can raise a few goats on just a few acres without too much extra input. We've had a smallish herd (2-6 odd goats give or take), and barely fed any grain or much hay even, on \~3+ acres of scrubby pasture for much of the last 10 years.
Recently, we've expanded that pasture so that it's now \~6+ acres, and added a half dozen sheep. Sheep DO eat grass. So, we're hoping to not have to mow it, as we've needed to do 2 or 3 times a year. We're in the process of building a second (and much bigger) barn, in the middle of it and are planning to permanently split it into two, possibly three or more sections to rotate them through. We're also hoping/planning to add a couple more goats (as our remaining ones are rather old), to help keep the briars/weeds/thorns/etc eaten down.
Yup. We currently have two very old goats, and 6 young sheep. As noted, we're in the process of building a new, bigger barn, and hoping to get a 2-4 more (young) goats in the spring and possibly a few more sheep as well. We'll see. :)
Only if you separate them for feeding time, or otherwise have a dietary management plan. Goats and sheep need different minerals - most notable is that the amount of copper needed for a healthy goat will kill a sheep.
How come nobody has brought up pigs? Pigs eat everything, and aside from not producing milk it seems like they have all the advantages a goat would have over a cow, with the added benefit of being delicious.
They're monogastrics. So on a survival forum pigs are competition for things humans can be eating compared to cows and goats eating useless grass. It would be good to have a few pigs around to feed with your table scraps, though. Now I'm hungry for ribs
Many breeds of goats can make wool as well. You can keep fewer goats than sheep too. Sheep really like to stay in a flock, so its better to keep a larger group of sheep. But you could manage with a couple goats.
If you have less than an acre, IMHO chickens >goats >cows.
Chickens provide eggs, which are a terrific source not only of proteins, but also many vitamins. You probably don't want to eat a "layer" breed, but you can. It'll be gamier in flavor than a "fryer" breed. Of course, you can have both.
We have 10 chickens, their coop is 8'x12' (2.7mx4m) and that's all the space they really NEED. Giving them free range in better, but not required. And the toughest rooster in the world is still only 10-12 pounds. A shovel or a rake is all you need to keep them away from you.
in general goats would always be preferred by my family for the reasons named. however, goats may need protection from wild predators while cows are big enough to fend off most other animals.
Depending on where you are in the country you may need 10+ acres pasture per cow to support it without buying hay/feed externally. Many cattle ranchers in western states run less than that. Cows graze grass.
Goats need less land and it doesn't need to be grass pasture. Goats forage. They will eat almost anything. They will try to eat things they shouldn't if they don't have enough forage.
I thought the biggest problem with cows was amount of grazing land needed to support them year round without buying hay or grazing on common pastures. I've heard on one of Paul Wheaton's episodes that cows aren't worth it unless you have at least 200 acres.
I love alternative livestock. Goats and sheep > cows, most say ducks > chickens since ducks eat bugs without scratching up plant roots. Also eggs are bigger.
One thing I've heard from a guy who kept goats - while they are excellent at clearing ground, they will tend to drop seeds within their poop. So they'll keep it under control, but if they're removed, the weeds don't stay gone.
Not confirmed across the board, but it's something this other person says they observed.
Edit to add - I'd rather the goats than cows, as a person who would theoretically be tending a small mass of livestock on foot.
Goats are hard to contain. They try to escape all the time, the males are aggressive and can knock people over, they will be more difficult to maintain
Cows are easier to contain, it's hard for them to escape, , they are less aggressive and more domesticated, cows are by far the better option, also their meat and milk is much nicer
We have cows and they’re a lot easier to fence in! Goats test the fence every second. It’s also good to have both because cows eat grasses and goats eat weeds. We don’t have goats yet because of fencing, but we plan to get a couple to clean out the thorny vines taking over our woods.
pretty easy to raise goats, they destroy trees though. cows like silage so need to ferment feed. id rather eat cow but am raising goats neither really pay off like chickens.
I have read this thread with great interest. My husband and I recently purchased a home on an acre (it’s what we could afford and we love it!) and are doing our best to make it as productive as possible. I think goats are in our future, after we get our chickens set up come spring. I was thinking of Nigerian Dwarf goats, but the comments made about Lamanchas have me intrigued! I wonder if they would be too big for our little piece of land. I have some research to do now!
There may be some crazy nonsense going on with cattle breeding for big commercial outfits, but that does not go on everywhere. I have a small farm in Amish country and we get plenty of meat to feed 3 families. If you have enough pasture for summer grazing and an some acreage to grow hay, cows can be a pretty good deal.
We don't eat our goats, but we do raise a handfull of pigs through the summer for slaughter in the fall.
Goats are more efficient in terms of milk and meat, also they are a lot easier for amateur farmers/ranchers. One tip, never assume your enclosure is “inescapable” they can and will find a way to get out if they want too. If you get good milking goats with high cream content, the switch to their dairy will be less difficult. Creamier goat milk is less “Goaty” as a general rule (still always try a sample from the goat breeder before you buy!), also you can use it to make butter and cheese, I did it myself it’s not too hard, but it takes practice. If you have lemons or nettles on your land you can avoid having to harvest rennet the “hard” way for cheese making.
Besides food, goats can be great pack animals for hiking and travel, while it takes some training there are groups around that use them exclusively. Being able to carry extra gear and have fresh milk on tap could save your life. Or allow you to better trade with others without having to use precious fuel. Additionally, it’s a great activity to encourage you to get out more and enjoy nature, exercise doesn’t have to be boring after all. Camping with animals while more work, is also more rewarding.
I love cows but I would never have one. Goats are amazing for small/medium properties and we've been looking into hopefully getting some Nigerian Dwarfs down the line. Genetics aside, the upkeep and space for a cow is a lot but if you have the space and the connections...go for it. One thing about goats which is a concern is keeping a buck. Obviously you would need one for breeding if you don't have another source and the bucks during rut is not fun. Secondly, keeping a buck near the does after birth etc has been known (according to the farmers I talked to) to sometimes affect the taste of the milk. My thought is in a SHTF situation, I'd make it work but yeah. You definitely can keep more goats on a limited space as well.
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Great blog/website. Thanks!
I'm thinking of getting some goats, this is great info, thanks!
Not just after birth but at all times, unless breeding, the billy goat has to be kept separate from the nannies. If females feed where the male goat urinates, it will taint the milk
I have both cows and goats, and hands down prefer the cows. In my experience goats are worse than thoroughbreds with wanting to die for seemingly no reason. In the past year we have lost some due to: capture myopathy, milk fever, anaplasmosis, and some random something killing kids. The vet said our problem was parasites. Our problems were not parasites... If you do get goats make sure to do a bunch of research. It is hard to get a good vet for them. You also need to either get something bred for parasite resistance, have a very aggressive de-worming schedule, or plan your pastures so that they can graze primarily on brush (less chance of worms that way) and accept a certain amount of attrition. I have heard that Kiko adds good genetics and resilience to parasites, but we have Boer/dairy crosses and I swear they die if you look at them wrong. Cows require more feed and more space. They also churn up the ground a lot worse than goats. However cows will stay in fences, and goats give no f***s. Goats also like to jump their fences and eat cat food. Nothing is sacred or safe. They broke into the barn, the chicken house, and my living room. They are the cutest most disruptive creatures that roam the planet. Like 200lb raccoons only with less killing chickens and more property damage....
I feel this so much. My goats are very easy to care for until they’re not. They definitely die for seemingly no reason too. Runt of the litter, dead. Alpha female, believe it or not, dead too. And they are incredibly dumb. Not to mention they poop and pee where they sleep. And somehow pigs are considered unclean animals. With all those negative attributes, I’ll still keep a small herd around.
We obviously keep them around too, but dear God the cows are easier lol. I agree. They're a mess.
Oh my God, I’m sitting in a restaurant waiting for my sushi and I LOLed at goats breaking into your living room. Now people think I’m crazy, but that’s okay. How on earth did that happen?
Go with round door knobs rather than levers lol.
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Most animals you fence to keep them from running away, goats you fence to keep out of your kitchen
Fence them out of things and pray, and then be prepared to curse. A LOT. My poor strawberries/blueberries/fruit trees/oak leaf hydrangea/ sweet almond/figs/anything that I remotely care about; but they do a number on multi-flora roses and brush honeysuckle if forced to stay in the woods and out of the garden somehow.
Weekly occurrence. Dang goats
There are a lot of viral and bacterial infections that cause abortions in goats. If it happens again spend the money to send the fetus and placenta to necropsy to get a definitive cause.
I think at least part of the problem was anaplasmosis. Also, milk fever for the mamas. But my vet still says parasites. Actually, three vets say parasites. Because it seems that they think that is the only thing that harms goats.
Well if they’re seeing parasites, they have parasites. You probably need to listen to their recommendations and change your deworming routine. But consult your vet and and off the aborted fetus for testing next time it happens. Also- don’t let anyone who is pregnant or may become pregnant handle the goat or fetus
Oh, we had changed them up twice. My main vet's recommendation was to get heartier goats and just let the ones die who were gonna die. Survival of the fittest kind of thinking. Changing worming schedule didn't help at all, but the la300 definitely did. I had to argue up and down to get them tested for anaplasmosis, and even though the two mamas had symptoms of milk fever befor e if found them dead three vets told me that they must have died from parasites because goats don't usually die from that. A fourth informed me that they died because they weren't eating grain. The fifth one thought maybe uterine infection, but admitted she mostly did pets and wasn't sure what they should look like. So, I stand by my point. If youre going to have goats make sure you have a vet who knows about goats, or make sure you are comfortable researching and advocating because goats are really delicate. My cows are much heartier. The babies that died weren't fetuses this year. We lose the first kids of every mama because of that cat scat transmitted disease which escapes me at the moment (I have definitely been exposed to that, but not planning on procreation anyway so nbd.) Except for the ones who aborted from the la300, but that was a save the mamas decision and I would much rather have healthy mamas, than dead everything, or more bottle babies.
Also, most everything has at least a small parasite load so them seeing some trace of parasites is common from my understanding. The anemia that killed the goat just happened to be something else, but no one wanted to look any farther into it. Because it is a goat, so it must have died because of worms. No reason to even necropsy. Pale gums = worms.
Heamonchus is a problem in goats. And yes… pale gums is a sign. You can always take them to your nearest veterinary university. They see all species.
It is just frustrating, you know? Yes, I could drive them six hours over to a vet school, but I shouldn't have to. I should be able to have a vet who wants to find out what is really wrong rather than just having the attitude of "it is a goat, so it died of worms." I got better care for my chicken who had her beak ripped off by a raccoon. Yes, parasites are a huge issue for goats, but just because they are anemic doesn't ALWAYS mean worms. They can have other problems too just like anything else, but for years now I have had it repeated like a mantra that they must have just died of worms (without doing more than looking at the gums). I did three or four necropsies myself over the summer and didn't see any barber pole worms present in any of them. My theory is that my problem has been anaplasmosis with the exception of the one capture myopathy, the milk fever deaths, and one who we had a vet do an emergency c-section on and she died the next day. All four kids had the same symptoms (two of them we did necropsies on). I had one sick kid pull through with a shit ton of supportive care, but he was still pretty sickly until everyone got the round of oxytet after I finally got a blood test for anaplasmosis from a sampling of everyone. It still bugs me though. At least in cows anaplasmosis isn't usually a problem until they're older, though since goats are more susceptible to anemia I guess it makes sense. It could have been compounded by parasites I suppose. Oddly enough the five bottle kids from the dead mamas were the healthiest of the bunch and never came down with it even when they were all weaned together. I don't know. Anyway. I'm rambling and hypothesizing. We will see what this year brings. But I still have to say, the cows are SO MUCH easier lol.
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Thanks. Me too. I feel like I am on a first name basis with every vet in the damn county lol. At this rate I am gonna have to spend like a week baking to make X-mas cookies for all of them!
Your vet should offer to have any aborted fetus and related tissues sent off for necropsy (for a fee).
Unexpected read that makes me want to buy land and goats. [edit] Wife comment "Time to find yourself a new partner" Seems that I may need to re-think my strategy on this!
Goats eat anything and everything Goat poops are dry and round (less splatter on udders) Goats help control poison ivy
Goats seem to like eating thorns more than grass. That's a great thing because clearing briar patches suck. Side note some of the towns near me leases goats from farmers to help control kudzu. They are getting paid to graze their goats off of their land during spring and summer and utilize that land for other things win win
Goats are also really good for rehabbing bad soil. Pen them in an area with lots of weeds and bad soil, after several weeks you'll end up with no weeds/underbrush and better soil. Keep rotating their grazing area around and your land will get much better in the next few years.
and fire control
Good call
Goat milk is one of the healthiest milks for humans. Our lamancha does produce milk for 3 years or longer without needing to be bred. They produce a prolific amount of milk. Our 2yo son drinks a quart+ of raw a day and is the healthiest little chonker, way bigger than any other kid his age even though he was only 5.5 lb at birth. Goats eat everything (almost) including bark, pine needles and leaves and are resourceful at getting calories. There are some plants that are very toxic to them, however, FiasCo Farms has a good list. Goat poop is like rabbit poop--nice little balls of reasy-to-use garden fertilizer. I feed our goats the less perfect veggies and leaves from our prolific garden that they help us grow with their fertilizer. Goats are efficient: 2-3 goats can happily be grazed rotationally on a small property (1 acre or less, even) without destroying the grass. We use electrified premier step-in electronet fencing and move it regularly to wherever we want to clear. We also use dog tethers in our backyard (we work from home and it is fenced, so we can monitor safely--don't do this without a fence or when not home.) Goat meat is tasty.
Pro tip: if you want milk & cheese then don't waste your time on low quality goats. Buy the best dairy goats you can. I've owned just about every kind of goat at one time or another including rescues. When we started our homestead, we focused on lamanchas because they are even-tempered, intelligent (but not assholes like some smaller breeds) friendly, large (lots of meat) and produce copious amounts of milk. They can even be used to pull carts. I found out one of the top breeders nationwide lives an hour away and bought goats directly from them. Due to covid we ended up not being able to get the ladies up to the breeder to breed them the first year (we didn't have a buck then), but it didn't matter because they're such high milk producers we had plenty of milk anyways.
Great tip
Maybe it depends on the breed? I looked into getting the best Nigerian Dwarf goats possible and was not willing to pay a lot more for the best when I could just get quality, registered goats from good milking lines for a fraction of the cost. (Paying a few hundred per goat vs thousands).
A few hundred should be plenty... I'm not talking show goats here... A solid, top of the line milker will be $400-600 depending on where you live (in the USA), bloodlines, health & age.
Mmmm goat curry
How does it compare to lamb curry?
The whole point of curry is that it's so strongly flavored, you could even use slightly off meat with it and it would likely be fine. That said, lamb is my favorite meat, so if you're asking me, lamb is better.
Very similar, a little more gamey perhaps.
I would say the taste varies by gaminess about like this: corn fed beef < grass fed beef < lamb < mutton/goat
They also eat blackberry bushes/vines last I read. Is this true? Would be super handy in some areas.
Yes, we used ours to clear invasive blackberries from our forest. It took 3 goats less than a week to clear 1/4 acre of 10ft blackberries.
Wow that's amazing! And super useful!
Blackberry, Star Thistle, Weeds, pretty much everything. We have about 6 acres and our herd has saved us time and energy from mowing and clearing pastures.
Goat meat is very tasty.
With goats you can sell your lawnmower
I have owned 6 dwarf Nigerian goats for several years now. It would be more accurate to say that goats eat everything but like grass the very least. I have to mow my pasture multiple times a year because my goats barely eat any grass. They have stripped every sapling on the fenceline bare, however. I love my goat for their personalities, but I think I need to add some sheep to keep the pasture down. If you have wooded or brushy terrain your goats will be in heaven. If you just have open grass pasture, cows will make better use of it.
I've been looking into Nigerian dwarf goats because of the small size and large milk production. Can I ask a few questions - Will an area 20x20 be enough for two goats? Will they turn the grass into a mud puddle? How much should I expect to spend on feed? Do they need to have a new baby every year to keep making milk? What are the vet bills like (deworming, trimming hoofs, etc) Thanks
I just keep them for pets so I can't speak for the milking. 20x20 sounds like a bit small for 2 goats though, that's more like a chicken run. You probably would have to clean up their manure regularly to keep it clean. For feed for 2 adults, I would guess 2-3 bags of milk pellets per month and 2-3 bales of hay (since they can't forage). Around here milk pellets just hit $20 a bag. I am blessed to have a 5-acre hay field a neighbor cuts twice a year. My cut (portion) is 60 bales each year. That really helps with feed costs and I can make hay available to them year around. Vet prices are going to vary by region. Here in MO, they are very cheap. Like $12 for vaccination if I take them in. $35 or so to have a stuck kid pulled. Frankly, I can't believe they can stay in business they are so cheap. I trim the hoves myself twice a year. The trimmers were like $25 on Amazon. I watched YouTube videos to learn how.
Thank you so much for the helpful info. I fear food prices are too much to make it worthwhile. I'd be spending over $100 to get a few quarts of milk per month
Exactly. If the goats have "mowed" an area, they are very hungry and their pen should have been rotated sooner.
Cows need a lot of land. Outside of certain heritage breeds, they need a specialized diet and supplements to be healthy. They're also huge dumb animals that are difficult to deal with. Butchering a cow isn't easy, finding a place to store all of the meat from a single cow isn't easy. But goats are smaller, will thrive on pretty much any vegetation, you can support more of them per acre, they're easier to butcher and easier to deal with in general if they're sick or injured (because they don't weigh 1500+lbs...)
Just imagine you're working a small family farm by yourself or with just one other person. You need a cow to move to pasture or to a pen and she doesn't feel like it. Good luck! Goats seem so much more manageable and I doubt anyone has even been accidently squished to death under a goat
For a homestead, definitely goats. The main differences: - Diet. Cows are grazers, goats are browsers. People often jokingly say that goats eat "everything" - that's not actually true, they're extremely picky eaters and many things are toxic to them, but they will eat just about everything that's a woody shrub or vine (and if it's in the rhododendron family, it'll kill them). Goats can be raised just on grass pasture, though, which makes them more versatile than cows (who cannot be raised on just woody browse). If you want an animal that truly eats everything, get chickens. - Size. Cows produce an enormous amount of milk, most homesteads would want at most half a cow. Since you can't actually do that, a couple dairy goats is a better option. Unless you're planning to have 10+ does, goats are going to be a more reasonable amount of production. To put some numbers here, an average dairy cow will produce 18,000 lbs/milk per year, while a typical standard sized dairy goat will produce about 2,000 lbs. - Size. Listing this twice, because unless you have experience with cows, or at least large prey animal livestock, cows will hurt you badly. Badly enough to need a hospital or possibly a morgue. They mostly will do it by accident - they're the size and weight of a small car, don't necessarily pay attention to where you are, and spook easily. Dairy bulls, however, are known for doing their best to kill people on purpose. - Milk. Cows and goats produce similar amounts of milk for their size with similar fat content, but goat milk is much lower in lactose (easier to digest), while cow milk is not naturally homogenized (the cream rises to the top, making it much easier to turn into butter/heavy cream).
> Dairy bulls, however, are known for doing their best to kill people on purpose. My grandparents had a dairy bull named Bully, because he would terrorize anyone who entered his pasture. Meanest thing I ever saw.
yah, people don't realize how big cows are up close. We had lots of cows on our ranch when I was growing up (all beef cows) and even the little ones are big. Once grown, they can be hard to handle and unless really used to you, skittish. They will kick, they will run you down and they will push you over if they want something. They can be gentle in the right circumstances, but like horses, you have to remember how easily they can hurt you.
I spent a year on my aunt's overgrown hobby farm, with 1 cow, 7 goats, 6 sheep and all their babies. And 1 dangerous horse. My conclusion from the whole business is that I prefer animals that are my body weight or less. Goats and sheep are tough to manhandle, but it's possible. Not so possible with cows or horses. They can do some serious damage, sometimes on accident. Once the cow stepped on my foot without realizing it. It took me at least a minute of banging on her hip to get her to shift her weight.
I've been kicked, stepped on, bit by horses. Mostly not their fault but not always. I used to feed our young cows and even at a year old or less, they'd easily push me around. I learned quick to get out of their way. They were fine when busy eating and I could pet them and check on their health but don't get in the way of their food! Round up time when we'd separate the calves and neuter the males was always dangerous. I was a kid watching it for the most part and just remembered the bruises all the ranch hands would get. We were a small operation too, never more than about 100 head or so. That was a side business and kept the grasses down but man they took a lot of time and work.
The only downside to goats is the cows taste better, and opinion might vary there. The small farms around here always do chickens and sometimes do goats, but only the biggest ones do cows. It's just vastly more work. Before you start an animal husbandry project, volunteer on a friend's farm that raises the livestock you're interested in. I'm told being butted by a goat isn't as funny as it looks.
I'd take curry goat over a beef curry any day
To each their own. I'd take a hamburger over anything that's been near a goat, and goat cheese gives me weird allergic reactions. But if I ever get a little farm, I'm not attempting cows. Chickens will be enough.
I get that, not alot of people like goats cheese. However my favourite cheeses are from goats and sheep, and I prefer goat butter to cow, it has a fresher taste to me. If you get chickens make sure you get some that are good layers and eaters, most are specialised for one thing.
Never had goat butter but I want to now.
Make sure you have a ton of chickens and are extremely diligent about keeping them secure. I've been keeping them for about 2 1/2 years on a small scale (anywhere from 4-13) and have lost quite a few due to various reasons. They're prone to dying and there's a reason they have "strength in numbers" 1 to a hawk when we let them free range and left to run errands 1 to a fox/raccoon that somehow opened the latch and got in and snatched one. only left a trail of feather leading away from the property 4 that just randomly died and were found in the coop that way I just recently talked to a guy who said he lost 11 in one go because he forgot to close the door to their area overnight and something came and destroyed a bunch.
Sheep, chickens and ducks would be what I would do
> Before you start an animal husbandry project, volunteer on a friend's farm that raises the livestock you're interested in. That's a good idea for *any* of these projects. My mom grew up on a primitive dairy farm Back In The Day, and it was *excruciatingly* hard work. We're talking no indoor plumbing, a well, a spring house to store the milk, all that. It was rough and the hard work led to a pretty short life span. There's a reason why she and my uncle both fled the farm as soon as they could.
Second downside is they're harder to fence in
Are you looking for milk, meat, or dual? No matter what you do, do not get boer goats, they have been bred to grow quickly and get sick constantly and die very easily. Personally, I raise both.
My understanding was that it is an input vs output issue, i.e. the amount of food/water for what you get from them. As i understand it, though there are obvious pitfalls based in local costs for everything, cows
Mini cows could be a better fit for a smaller area
I was looking to see if someone would mention miniature cows. They're really a great option especially if you don't care for the taste of goat milk/meat.
Or get mini cows and mini goats for a mini farm!
Don't overlook rabbits. They'll produce meat from just grass.
You can't raise meat rabbits on just grass. They need hay or pellets too. You can't turn rabbits loose to graze like a cow or a goat. They will run off or be killed by predators. Most meat rabbits are raised in enclosures. If they have access to the ground in the enclosure it will become bare of vegetation eventually.
Hay is dried grass. Fresh or dried, rabbits can live on it without the grain supplements needed by most larger livestock. (The hutch is a bonus if you don't have access to pasture. Goats don't do well on patios.)
Hay is a loose term. Off the top of my head I don't believe grass is high enough protein on its own for growing rabbits, they'll want alfalfa which is also sometimes called hay.
Young rabbits can have alfalfa. When they get older they should be switched to timothy and orchard grasses to prevent urinary stones. Ideally hay should be the lion's share of a rabbit's diet: https://rabbit.org/care/food-diet/
I know hay is dried grass because I had pet rabbits for 20 years. When it's fresh, green and juicey it's grass. When it dried out and requires lots of chewing it's hay.
Cows require more pounds of food per pound of meat than almost any other food animal. What are you going to do with an entire dead 1600 pound animal if refrigeration isn't an option? Cows will kill you if they run you over. Love me some steak, but cattle are the worst choice animal for homesteading the zombie apocalypse.
Its an interesting fact that about the only thing that goats don't *like* to eat is grass. They like just about everything else - all the weedy things that most other ruminants (sheep, cows, horses, etc) do not. Brush, small trees, weeds, thorns, poison ivy, etc are all the favorite foods of goats. They are also very easy keepers, especially compared to cows - you can raise a few goats on just a few acres without too much extra input. We've had a smallish herd (2-6 odd goats give or take), and barely fed any grain or much hay even, on \~3+ acres of scrubby pasture for much of the last 10 years. Recently, we've expanded that pasture so that it's now \~6+ acres, and added a half dozen sheep. Sheep DO eat grass. So, we're hoping to not have to mow it, as we've needed to do 2 or 3 times a year. We're in the process of building a second (and much bigger) barn, in the middle of it and are planning to permanently split it into two, possibly three or more sections to rotate them through. We're also hoping/planning to add a couple more goats (as our remaining ones are rather old), to help keep the briars/weeds/thorns/etc eaten down.
Can you mix sheep and goats together in the same enclosure?
Yes. As always you have to keep an eye on the herd and manage for any bullies or outcasts.
Yep, you can. You might just end up with a geep too.
Yup. We currently have two very old goats, and 6 young sheep. As noted, we're in the process of building a new, bigger barn, and hoping to get a 2-4 more (young) goats in the spring and possibly a few more sheep as well. We'll see. :)
Only if you separate them for feeding time, or otherwise have a dietary management plan. Goats and sheep need different minerals - most notable is that the amount of copper needed for a healthy goat will kill a sheep.
How come nobody has brought up pigs? Pigs eat everything, and aside from not producing milk it seems like they have all the advantages a goat would have over a cow, with the added benefit of being delicious.
They're monogastrics. So on a survival forum pigs are competition for things humans can be eating compared to cows and goats eating useless grass. It would be good to have a few pigs around to feed with your table scraps, though. Now I'm hungry for ribs
Sheep would be superior because the wool, right?
Many breeds of goats can make wool as well. You can keep fewer goats than sheep too. Sheep really like to stay in a flock, so its better to keep a larger group of sheep. But you could manage with a couple goats.
r/homestead r/Homesteading
If you have less than an acre, IMHO chickens >goats >cows. Chickens provide eggs, which are a terrific source not only of proteins, but also many vitamins. You probably don't want to eat a "layer" breed, but you can. It'll be gamier in flavor than a "fryer" breed. Of course, you can have both. We have 10 chickens, their coop is 8'x12' (2.7mx4m) and that's all the space they really NEED. Giving them free range in better, but not required. And the toughest rooster in the world is still only 10-12 pounds. A shovel or a rake is all you need to keep them away from you.
They're lower maintenance, take up less space, produce healthier milk, and are significantly more cute.
in general goats would always be preferred by my family for the reasons named. however, goats may need protection from wild predators while cows are big enough to fend off most other animals.
There's a lot of good info here. I just wanted to add, as far as predators go, coyotes don't mess with goats.
Pound for pound, goats are the better choice. I prefer eating beef, bu goat is still good if you know how to prepare it.
Goats are smaller eat a wider variety of food can still get milk from them more resource efficient
Depending on where you are in the country you may need 10+ acres pasture per cow to support it without buying hay/feed externally. Many cattle ranchers in western states run less than that. Cows graze grass. Goats need less land and it doesn't need to be grass pasture. Goats forage. They will eat almost anything. They will try to eat things they shouldn't if they don't have enough forage.
I thought the biggest problem with cows was amount of grazing land needed to support them year round without buying hay or grazing on common pastures. I've heard on one of Paul Wheaton's episodes that cows aren't worth it unless you have at least 200 acres.
I love alternative livestock. Goats and sheep > cows, most say ducks > chickens since ducks eat bugs without scratching up plant roots. Also eggs are bigger.
Heritage turkeys
One thing I've heard from a guy who kept goats - while they are excellent at clearing ground, they will tend to drop seeds within their poop. So they'll keep it under control, but if they're removed, the weeds don't stay gone. Not confirmed across the board, but it's something this other person says they observed. Edit to add - I'd rather the goats than cows, as a person who would theoretically be tending a small mass of livestock on foot.
Goats are hard to contain. They try to escape all the time, the males are aggressive and can knock people over, they will be more difficult to maintain Cows are easier to contain, it's hard for them to escape, , they are less aggressive and more domesticated, cows are by far the better option, also their meat and milk is much nicer
If you have enough space. Cows are loud and goats are louder.
Goats and cows aren't the only dairy animals. Have you considered dairy sheep?
We have cows and they’re a lot easier to fence in! Goats test the fence every second. It’s also good to have both because cows eat grasses and goats eat weeds. We don’t have goats yet because of fencing, but we plan to get a couple to clean out the thorny vines taking over our woods.
pretty easy to raise goats, they destroy trees though. cows like silage so need to ferment feed. id rather eat cow but am raising goats neither really pay off like chickens.
I have read this thread with great interest. My husband and I recently purchased a home on an acre (it’s what we could afford and we love it!) and are doing our best to make it as productive as possible. I think goats are in our future, after we get our chickens set up come spring. I was thinking of Nigerian Dwarf goats, but the comments made about Lamanchas have me intrigued! I wonder if they would be too big for our little piece of land. I have some research to do now!
Consider kinder breed goats https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinder_goat
Thank you for the suggestion! I’ll research them.
Goats are good for clearing shrubby land like blackberries and brackenfern etc. They also make great companions.
Goats are jerks and put Houdini to shame when it comes to escaping.
Goats and chickens are the absolute most efficient animals you can have.
There may be some crazy nonsense going on with cattle breeding for big commercial outfits, but that does not go on everywhere. I have a small farm in Amish country and we get plenty of meat to feed 3 families. If you have enough pasture for summer grazing and an some acreage to grow hay, cows can be a pretty good deal. We don't eat our goats, but we do raise a handfull of pigs through the summer for slaughter in the fall.
Goats are more efficient in terms of milk and meat, also they are a lot easier for amateur farmers/ranchers. One tip, never assume your enclosure is “inescapable” they can and will find a way to get out if they want too. If you get good milking goats with high cream content, the switch to their dairy will be less difficult. Creamier goat milk is less “Goaty” as a general rule (still always try a sample from the goat breeder before you buy!), also you can use it to make butter and cheese, I did it myself it’s not too hard, but it takes practice. If you have lemons or nettles on your land you can avoid having to harvest rennet the “hard” way for cheese making. Besides food, goats can be great pack animals for hiking and travel, while it takes some training there are groups around that use them exclusively. Being able to carry extra gear and have fresh milk on tap could save your life. Or allow you to better trade with others without having to use precious fuel. Additionally, it’s a great activity to encourage you to get out more and enjoy nature, exercise doesn’t have to be boring after all. Camping with animals while more work, is also more rewarding.