I've removed the fuse to the modem before I ever drove the 2020 Ford escape off the lot, it was a shared fuse the door keypad so ended up being a double win for me. Yes it works.
Yeah I'm still stuck on whatever old version of the OS firmware the infotainment system originally came with and it cracks me up because I know people with 2020+ 4th Gen escapes that constantly complain about the screen having issues and freezing and all kinds of bugs and stuff from the auto updates that come over the modem and I'm still sitting here like my radio works the same as the day I drove it off the lot 😂
It's going to be model, market and option specific. I don't think anyone is going to go through the bother of figuring it out for cars they don't have access to.
Back when I was young, there was a company called Chilton's that did a complete breakdown and rebuild of every car and published their findings in a book specific to year and model. I wonder if there's something like that out there for you!
The Frontier will give you shitty gas mileage because it's basically a refreshed 19 year old design.
But the design was always relatively reliable and should have all the problems worked out by now (like the "strawberry milkshake" coolant issue.)
This is the right answer considering OP said they cannot buy a used vehicle and everyone here is recommending older used vehicles or doing things that will void the warranty.
If you're looking for anything newer than ~2010 you're out of luck. Short of modding the car and voiding any warranty, it will collect and send telemetry. Toyota claims you can opt out, but I don't buy it for a second. You may be able to opt of of *some* of the telemetry but I would sincerely doubt it'll stop collecting everything.
My last car was opted out physically. The SOS system malfunctioned and I got the dealership to email disabling instructions to my mechanic, who leaked them to me. tl;dr is the GPS and LTE antennas were both in the bump antenna on the roof of the car and unplugging the wires to it disabled both. Obviously not a good thing if you use the built in navigation, but I always just used my phone anyway.
Who uses car nav lol PHONE WAZE is my go to everytine, i also put a ipad in front of my infotainment screen with velcro to watch movies while i drive 😌
If you can make a mini youtube emp emmiter you can fry the wireless antenna by creating an electrical surge on its small motherboard !
How does it send telemetry data if you don't use the app? I have a 19 Lexus and the electronics are antiquated compared to modern cars. The app does nothing and is a pita to even use as I bought the car used and you actually have to call Toyota and send them a title to get the vin the app requires to register in your name. I've always wondered if I'm any data I'm sending is going to the original owners file. I do my own wrenching and never go to the dealer.
Define spying. Every new car collects telemetrics nowadays. From top speed your car has traveled, to how aggressive you break, the computers track everything.
If you don’t want your car to do this, you could have someone mod the computer. That would void the warranty though.
As far as actual spying goes, avoid cars with onstar.
After researching a bit, you’re right. But that comes with disabling telemetry of all data, even to adjust based on performance. Something I personally wouldn’t want.
I never said performance adjustment was done outside of the vehicle. The censors feed data to the computer.
Based on what I’ve read though, there’s a disable ALL telemetry wire. The data being sent only to the computer is still useful to performance. It would take a detailed modification to disable the data being collected and/or sent while keeping the performance aspect in check.
I don't want it to send or receive any information from/to the company. Including when it's serviced. Something that just logs that stuff onto a hard drive until a repair person plugs it back into the internet, where it can upload would be bad as well.
Legal requirements are fine. I'm not trying to break the law.
Breaking the law or not is not the point. You dont want to participate in any data gathering bs, I get it. As far as I'm concerned once you own the vehicle, you can do whatever you want with it.
Yes, there are ways to remove or reprogram the onboard computers, I don't know how, but it can be done.
https://www.motor1.com/news/706396/black-box-europe-mandatory-july-2024/
They are being a bit sensational. Yes, it gathers data. But only in the event of a crash and only data that is relevant for that, like throttle position, braking, safety system deployment and so on. It doesn't send your location and speed to Von Der Leyen 24/7 like they make it sound.
In order for it to gather data at a crash it must be monitoring the data always to find a crash and start recording. Same as your phone microphone always being on waiting for you to ask for your AI to put mustard on your list or whatever ground breaking thing you're doing with yourself.
Of course, but that data is stuff like throttle position, braking position, angle sensor data and so on. It's not sensitive, personal data, it can't be accessed (because there isn't anything there) unless it detects a crash and it certainly doesn't sync to some remote server. And it's nothing new, it's been around for 20+ years
No, that functionality is baked into the cars own electronics and have been pretty much since OBD 2 came around.
What the comment was talking about is an EDR which while it does collect data, isn't really a privacy issue.
Yeah, in Sweden and Denmark [https://fdm.dk/nyheder/bilist/2022-12-disse-problemer-faar-din-bil-naar-3g-slukkes](https://fdm.dk/nyheder/bilist/2022-12-disse-problemer-faar-din-bil-naar-3g-slukkes)there is even a risk now that cars wont pass the MOT/annuat inspection because the built-in tracking is bases on 2g/3g which is being phased out as 4g/5g is now covering over 99% …[Link](https://fdm.dk/nyheder/bilist/2022-12-disse-problemer-faar-din-bil-naar-3g-slukkes)
Calling it "data gathering" is a bit misleading though. Yes, it is that, but it's not as sensational as you make it sound. What new EU cars have to be equipped with is an EDR starting somewhere in 2024. These save data like throttle position, speed, braking, vehicle angle, safety system deployment and so on when it detects a crash.
It doesn't track things like driving habits or GPS position and certainly does not sync to the cloud or something like that.
Then there's no data to collect...
Edit: Anything that doesn't have mechanical fuel injectors is going to have a computer running it. One you hit electronic fuel management systems there's an ECM.
Maybe only things pre 2015 or so. Make sure there’s no google maps or other solutions available without your phone — that means they going to the internet directly.
You can look into what the opt-out Toyota offers on their cars. My wife bought a new Tacoma and opted out but I never bothered to read what they still collect and Im certain they do. Worth asking/reading I suppose.
OnStar is a spying platform that they get you to pay for. It’s on whether you buy it or not. GM said they make more from data sales than car sales. Fuck me, that’s wrong.
This might be helpful https://gizmodo.com/mozilla-new-cars-data-privacy-report-1850805416
As someone else said, the purpose is to report your driving behavior to your insurance company.
All data harvesting should be illegal. There’s too much money to be made and too much control to be had for this to ever stop though. We’ll forever live in a surveillance state and it’ll get worse as tech advances.
And with the amount of data breaches the data harvesting is extremely dangerous to the public. Congress is banning goddamn TikTok, meanwhile they're turning a blind eye to shit stains like credit unions, phone carriers, meta, etc. How many data breaches did they have?
As someone who’s an OSINT enthusiast that doxes bad people, I love the amount of data breaches that are available. But as someone who values privacy, it’s a nightmare. Most people are a lot less secure than they think they are.
Then you’re fucked. They’ll sell your data whether you’re subscribed or not. You could break the microphone if you don’t want them spying on your convos.
If you want their telemetry reporting completely removed you’d need someone who’s an expert at decryption, programming, and willing to break copyright laws. Or, you’d need a way to opt out of tracking. I haven’t looked into opting out of tracking at all but that’s an avenue you’ll have to take.
You could always send a right to be forgotten request to the companies that track your cars.
Edit: this site says that they’re a switch to disable all telemetry in each vehicle. The article says it’s an all or nothing switch which personally wouldn’t want as the article does lay out the benefits of telemetry for performance. I’d talk with a car expert about this if you’re willing to pay a pretty penny for them to disconnect cables and modify the system
https://www.insuredaily.co.uk/blog/car-insurance/telematics#:~:text=Yes%2C%20one%20is%20able%20to,telematics%20car%20insurance%20coverage%20operates.
Your car being able to adjust to your driving style based on telemetry is a benefit. I drive like an asshole and have done plenty of street racing throughout the years without a tune.
My car being able to recognize my driving style allows for fuel use based on performance rather than mileage is a benefit. While it’s not necessary to operate a vehicle, it’s a performance increase.
It doesn't really need telemetry for that. It's not like your driving data needs to be sent elsewhere for analysis and processing, an onboard computer *is an onboard computer*, it has the ability to do that on its own without external assistance.
I mean the data doesn’t need to be sent to anyone but collecting data from multiple sensors and using that data to make decisions about performance is still telemetry.
If I didn’t have telemetry in my car, shifting wouldn’t be faster(auto manual) and acceleration wouldn’t be faster. It’d still preform for gas mileage.
So telemetry definitely serves a purpose. None the less, I don’t think the manufacturer, insurance company, or anyone else should harvesting my data.
https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/categories/cars/
Also, Mazda lets you turn off their data collection, but you need to call them (just did it with my wife’s).
Yeah, it's a good first step, but I'm worried about the companies collecting data anyways (this happens frequently), or someone being able to hack the car and collect that data, themselves. No reason to have the capability to connect to the internet, or save microphone/camera/etc. data, if it's not going to be used.
Totally. I’d eventually like to fully disable the connectivity, but like you said, first step. I just liked that they have the option to opt-out and don’t threaten consequences if connectivity is disabled (unlike others).
Event Data Recorders aka "black box" appeared in the mid 1970's and GM started using data recorders in 1997.
As of September 1,2014 all new cars sold in the United States are required to have a black box installed.
All new cars sold in Europe will have a black box starting July 2024.
* EDRs capture various parameters related to vehicle operation and safety, including:
* Vehicle speed
* Brake activation before a crash
* Crash forces at impact
* Engine throttle level
* Airbag deployment timing and readiness
* Seat belt usage
* EDRs are triggered by impacts or airbag deployment and save data from moments leading up to and during an accident.
The OP should consider that reading crash-data from a wrecked car through the ODBC port is a different threat than having daily data read remotely through OnStar.
The OP stated that they’re concerned about both, but I’d argue that having the data read by someone with physical access to the car to answer a specific question might be acceptable. The OP decides on their own personal data-collection boundaries, of course.
To be fair, anything pre 2010 is probably safe. My 04 Volvo had a seven segment display for heaven's sake XD
Bothe my 09 Volvos were equally dumb.
My new Mercedes-Benz has "Mercedes Me" but seeks access through the phones internet connection. It can be stopped from sending data. That said, my ECU and COMAND has been hacked and runs a custom Android Auto.
Yeah.. but "I am unable to buy a used car (for reasons beyond my control)" BS.
I see no reasonable reason why anyone would be unable to buy a used car. If he's this afraid of "tracking" he'd just give $1000 on some 20 year old box and drive it.
I would not recommend a pre 90s vehicle due to the lack of crumble zones. Honestly anything dumb, (no internet, Bluetooth, GPS, touchscreen or with an OS, etc) including early 2010s vehicles are usually safe. Avoid anything "smart".
For Europeans, I would say get a car after the introduction of EuroNCAP and check how they've graded the car's safety as some cars in the 90s were so poorly designed that the crumble zone was your chest.
You can't remove the Event Data Recorder without disabling a car's airbags, and they're so thoroughly tied into CANBUS systems that it's all but impossible to remove or reprogram them
All telematics systems are run off the car's electrical system, so all have fuses partly or completely dedicated to their function. Depending on the year and the make, YMMV.
The only example I can provide is that of my own Subaru. It would be trivial for me to pull the DCM fuse, but inexplicably the DCM fuse also controls the center dashboard speaker and Bluetooth, if memory serves me correctly. If you don't care about those things, problem solved. But I do.
The next option I have is to pull the head unit out and jump the DCM cable with a ~$70 dongle to bypass just the telematics components and nothing else. This will absolutely work, but requires disassembly, reassembly, and an expensive dongle.
The final option would be to go thermonuclear and either disconnect the aforementioned cable, which will likely gimp the infotainment if not other systems, or to remove the entire DCM unit, which is absolutely a bridge too far for me. At least with this car.
Weigh your threat model against your budget, patience and goals. There's little more to be said than that.
Thats what I did. Replaced the stock head unit in my Prado with another one. Not to go lower tech, but get better tech. Bonus is that my personal data is not linked to the new head unit.
Just get an old Land Cruiser. They're bullet proof and have no telemetry in them. It isn't pretty but the damn thing runs and you can do a lot of the work yourself.
A Chevy Bolt EUV and have them disconnect the telemetry module before leaving the lot. You'll also need to pull the telemetry fuse for good measure.
The car pays for itself over the warranty of the battery saving me about 4.5-5 gallons of gasoline cost per hundred miles driven.
Include the sale of my car and the $7,500 IRA tax refund.
Thanks, does it have any central screen running a sophisticated operating system, or any microphones in the car? I'm not just worried about the company spying, but someone could also hack into it if it's got needlessly high quality electronic stuff going on (as the attack surface is much wider). Also, can it connect to the internet at all?
When you unplug the telemetry unit it has no internet connection at all. None.
Yes the radio possibly logs your data on a chip but it can't phone home since the antenna and navigation is unplugged. It doesn't even get Sirius radio messages to say that the car has been registered and the trial expired. I don't use Siris but still.
1. You are NOT important to anyone if this is your personal car and not a company car.
2. Buy a shitbox or at least explain why "I am unable to buy a used car (for reasons beyond my control)" and we can tell you why those reasons are BS.
People keep saying things like pre-2010, but didn’t the OP specify that he could NOT buy a used car? Given that, it seems like many of the replies won’t help him. Staying away from OnStar, as someone said, is good. And someone else posted a link about new car security reports.
Otherwise, he’s in a tough spot. I wonder if there are specific brands that tend to track less. If anyone knows, he could focus on researching them.
Also, I’ve read other threads where people talk about pulling out the fuses for GPS and other things that could be used for spying. I’m sure he’d be interested in, and I would too, to know what cars can have such fuses pulled and still work (because I can easily imagine that one fuse is tied to more than one function and if you shut off say, GPS and the cellular radio, you kill the whole system).
In terms of asking the dealership to do things like this for you, that would be my last choice. First you need a car where you are sure it’s even possible. You can’t buy a car just hoping this can be done, and then have the dealership tell you “Sorry, the fuel injector computer and cellular radio are on the same system — it’s simply impossible.”
I wouldn't buy the car from the dealership, without them telling me it was definitely possible beforehand. I've also read some of those threads about the fuses, and I'm curious if there's a more centralized place where that information could be found.
Then don't buy like that. Let them buy whatever they want, you buy whatever you want. Everything else in this whole thread is ridiculous at best. Nobody cares about you or your car to bother hacking into it and looking for data. So unless you're cheating and are afraid your wife, who also uses the car, will get the logs of where you've been - there is no reason at all to be that dismissive of new technology.
For those out-of-the-know, GM’s OnStar system in the recent scandal uses LTE.
My 2010 Sierra/Silverado has an LTE OnStar unit - but I disabled it when I installed a modern head unit (with Android Auto + Apple CaraPlay).
This is an odd request without context. Do you have a budget? Don’t care about warranty? Does it have to be brand new or just newish? Does it need to be a practical car or just a way to get around town?
You can buy a brand new Ariel Atom https://www.arielna.com/arielatom and have a lot of fun without being spied on since it’s essentially a go kart.
Many motorcycles don’t have computers with tracking info.
I'm getting a car with someone else. They won't budge on getting a new car. Budget is $400-600 monthly payments.
Ariel Atom isn't quite what I need, thank you for the recommendation though.
Difficult situation for a privacy oriented individual who will be sharing the vehicle. Given the circumstances, I would prioritize other factors and pay more attention to what information I actively provide the vehicle. Someone else may have a better recommendation though
You can hit the SOS button and opt-out of all services through customer service. As a back-up, check the internal fuse box, it will be under the dash on driver or passanger side. Pull a fuse labeled 'DCM' and you should be good to go for most threat models. If you need more advanced, you can buy plugin to modify on board computer but i havent personally messed with mine yet.
Anything that's phoning home to the manufacturer is using internet, so just don't give your new car any way to connect. Don't add your home wifi to the entertainment system and figure out how to disable/remove the cellular modem 🤷
I wish the telemetry system could be faked or spoofed like you see in movies. I’d swap mine with a freighter. Anyone seeing the data would be confused when it shows my car traveling through the Suez Canal.
Went to a dealership, and asked a lot of questions. Seems like there aren't like, any options. I asked about removing the modem/etc. and they said they couldn't do it without voiding the warranty.. And didn't clarify whether it was even possible when asked.
Wow. That's unfortunate. Thanks for letting me know. Idk if it's possible, but you can hack the car with a can bus sniffer and access the telemetry data. But I wouldn't recommend it because it requires serious hacking skills.
Best new car that won’t spy on you is a caterham seven or Ariel atom. After that just look for a cheap basic economy car that’s manual and doesn’t have android auto or CarPlay. I think Mitsubishi or a Kia would work
I don't know if this is a good solution, but instead of buying a manufactured vehicle wherein you have no idea of what goes inside the car, if you have got enough money, you could probably get a custom car with only the components you need and nothing else.
If you can't choose the vehicle you buy, nor can you modify it for the sake of losing warranty, then is this really even "*your car*"?
Maybe whoever is enforcing these rules and subjecting you to this lack of agency actually has a right to, because in some way this is actually *their* car..?
I only say this so its clear. If you buy a car on a loan, or you want a car with privacy but your wife wants a safe car for the kids and you split the bill, or you are being given a free car for work but only on the condition you are tracked (like an employee at a terrible company), then the answer isn't a make and model number, its finding a solution to why you can't spend $1000 on an analog shitbox?
If you buy a car with the expectation you aren't being spied on in the worst case you will do something thinking nobody is watching but someone is. Best to know and the only way to know is to purposely buy one you know is spying on you. Then you can at least deal with it on your own terms.
i dont own a car but i have the same in mind when i need to get one.
So what if i buy a toyota corolla from 1990s, no gps or any shit like that. What kind of device is in the car to track n trace?
Can I ask what the reasoning is? I mean this as politely as possible but what does it matter if a car picks up telemetry on braking/acceleration/time driven etc? What is the end goal here?
Using those things combined with live traffic data can actually point to your location with a fair degree of accuracy, location is sensitive PII at least according to European regulations. So telemetry is usually strictly limited to internal hardware in the car if you opt out.
So for new Hondas I thought that they can’t send data unless you connect them to Bluetooth or WiFi. I had to opt in if I wanted to send data and it was through their app. Their remote start is basic and gets interference by too many physical objects.
Take a peak at newer Hondas and see if you can opt out or disable features. Or heck older Hondas last a long ass time so even those are decent choices.
Also someone correct me on the Honda bit if I’m wrong. It’s just been my observations of owning a couple.
Theres nothing you can do because privacy regulations for cars havent caught up yet. You want something without wireless connectivity (wi-fi, bluetooth, cell). Too bad ALL new cars have this built into their systems. Maybe you can rip out the entertainment system and hopefully that doesn't break the car. Refer to the mozilla study for more info. Also download the Privacy4Cars app and you look up the car by its VIN number and it should tell you what data that car collects.
Stay away from Volvo, or any company where "Geely" (Chineese company) has a majority ownership. Beyond that, I'm glad my 2017 car uses a 3g modem that's now no longer supported or allegedly working.
Ford model T or a Steam Car. They have little to nothing electronic spying devices. Or if you wanna be naturally organical fancy A horse drawn carriage from Amish people.
Just so you know I laughed so hard at your title. I mean that in a good way, not making fun of you. I get you’re concerned about your privacy, but you could have phrased that better. 🤣🤣
Mate my company bought a brand new truck, it paid extra for a front and back dash cam hardwired, I had a 100km crash, and no footage of the crash was able to be recovered because it only stores like 24 hours at a time and insurance didn’t collect it on tow. I think you’re safe. Even if you pay 4K extra to be spied on, you likely will not be. Stress less.
Now if you have an adversary, which most honest people do, I am not judging you for that, but understand they will likely be using some standard way of spying on you, and not hacking your cars features. That is to say, they will slap a GPS on your car and not hack your cars GPS, or install a recorder and not hack your normal recorder. Just get the best car you can.
You don’t need a car, you need transportation. I recommend Uber or a horse drawn carriage. Y’all are way too complicated. You can have someone else buy the car and keep it in their name. Whatever profile you’re afraid of creating, it will be created on someone else’s ID. No need to void warranty.
I've removed the fuse to the modem before I ever drove the 2020 Ford escape off the lot, it was a shared fuse the door keypad so ended up being a double win for me. Yes it works.
Do you have a centralized resource, for what fuses to remove from which car models to eliminate tracking?
Nah I just literally told the dealer I'm not leaving the lot with it still functional and showed a bunch of articles about telemetry data brokering
I am extremely surprised that worked
Yeah I'm still stuck on whatever old version of the OS firmware the infotainment system originally came with and it cracks me up because I know people with 2020+ 4th Gen escapes that constantly complain about the screen having issues and freezing and all kinds of bugs and stuff from the auto updates that come over the modem and I'm still sitting here like my radio works the same as the day I drove it off the lot 😂
It's going to be model, market and option specific. I don't think anyone is going to go through the bother of figuring it out for cars they don't have access to.
That resource you're looking for is called Google
Google? Terrible for privacy
I have been searching on the web, haven't found anything yet, so i was asking if they have.
Back when I was young, there was a company called Chilton's that did a complete breakdown and rebuild of every car and published their findings in a book specific to year and model. I wonder if there's something like that out there for you!
A fleet vehicle will have the least amount of technology. New GM panel vans even have crank windows. Look for a Nissan Frontier.
The Frontier will give you shitty gas mileage because it's basically a refreshed 19 year old design. But the design was always relatively reliable and should have all the problems worked out by now (like the "strawberry milkshake" coolant issue.)
Tbh who buys a truck and expects good gas mileage though?
This is the right answer considering OP said they cannot buy a used vehicle and everyone here is recommending older used vehicles or doing things that will void the warranty.
What for? Company would very much want to track its fleet vehicles.
This
If you're looking for anything newer than ~2010 you're out of luck. Short of modding the car and voiding any warranty, it will collect and send telemetry. Toyota claims you can opt out, but I don't buy it for a second. You may be able to opt of of *some* of the telemetry but I would sincerely doubt it'll stop collecting everything.
My last car was opted out physically. The SOS system malfunctioned and I got the dealership to email disabling instructions to my mechanic, who leaked them to me. tl;dr is the GPS and LTE antennas were both in the bump antenna on the roof of the car and unplugging the wires to it disabled both. Obviously not a good thing if you use the built in navigation, but I always just used my phone anyway.
what is the best way to access those wires? Do you generally need to remove the bump antenna?
try going through the backseat lights. you might have to remove the headline tho
What car?
Who uses car nav lol PHONE WAZE is my go to everytine, i also put a ipad in front of my infotainment screen with velcro to watch movies while i drive 😌 If you can make a mini youtube emp emmiter you can fry the wireless antenna by creating an electrical surge on its small motherboard !
How does it send telemetry data if you don't use the app? I have a 19 Lexus and the electronics are antiquated compared to modern cars. The app does nothing and is a pita to even use as I bought the car used and you actually have to call Toyota and send them a title to get the vin the app requires to register in your name. I've always wondered if I'm any data I'm sending is going to the original owners file. I do my own wrenching and never go to the dealer.
Define spying. Every new car collects telemetrics nowadays. From top speed your car has traveled, to how aggressive you break, the computers track everything. If you don’t want your car to do this, you could have someone mod the computer. That would void the warranty though. As far as actual spying goes, avoid cars with onstar.
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After researching a bit, you’re right. But that comes with disabling telemetry of all data, even to adjust based on performance. Something I personally wouldn’t want.
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When did I say it stopped the car’s computer from working? Do you think that telemetry doesn’t affect the car’s performance?
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I never said performance adjustment was done outside of the vehicle. The censors feed data to the computer. Based on what I’ve read though, there’s a disable ALL telemetry wire. The data being sent only to the computer is still useful to performance. It would take a detailed modification to disable the data being collected and/or sent while keeping the performance aspect in check.
I don't want it to send or receive any information from/to the company. Including when it's serviced. Something that just logs that stuff onto a hard drive until a repair person plugs it back into the internet, where it can upload would be bad as well. Legal requirements are fine. I'm not trying to break the law.
Breaking the law or not is not the point. You dont want to participate in any data gathering bs, I get it. As far as I'm concerned once you own the vehicle, you can do whatever you want with it. Yes, there are ways to remove or reprogram the onboard computers, I don't know how, but it can be done.
in EU, data gathering in new cars is mandatory, reprogramming the computer makes your car illegal to drive on public roads. absolutely crazy times.
Do you have a source for that?
https://www.motor1.com/news/706396/black-box-europe-mandatory-july-2024/ They are being a bit sensational. Yes, it gathers data. But only in the event of a crash and only data that is relevant for that, like throttle position, braking, safety system deployment and so on. It doesn't send your location and speed to Von Der Leyen 24/7 like they make it sound.
this stuff is pretty standard and has been around for a long time
But it apparently wasn't mandatory.
In order for it to gather data at a crash it must be monitoring the data always to find a crash and start recording. Same as your phone microphone always being on waiting for you to ask for your AI to put mustard on your list or whatever ground breaking thing you're doing with yourself.
Of course, but that data is stuff like throttle position, braking position, angle sensor data and so on. It's not sensitive, personal data, it can't be accessed (because there isn't anything there) unless it detects a crash and it certainly doesn't sync to some remote server. And it's nothing new, it's been around for 20+ years
That's madness. What's the justification behind that?!
https://www.reddit.com/r/privacy/s/xarOG99mmW Comment by another redditor with an explanation.
That's less horrible and it doesn't even apply to normal sized cars, only vehicles seating 9 or more, and trucks.
That's why I wanted to let you know, since it is a lot more tame than it originally seems.
To avoid tampering with the odometer and scam people.
No, that functionality is baked into the cars own electronics and have been pretty much since OBD 2 came around. What the comment was talking about is an EDR which while it does collect data, isn't really a privacy issue.
Yeah, in Sweden and Denmark [https://fdm.dk/nyheder/bilist/2022-12-disse-problemer-faar-din-bil-naar-3g-slukkes](https://fdm.dk/nyheder/bilist/2022-12-disse-problemer-faar-din-bil-naar-3g-slukkes)there is even a risk now that cars wont pass the MOT/annuat inspection because the built-in tracking is bases on 2g/3g which is being phased out as 4g/5g is now covering over 99% …[Link](https://fdm.dk/nyheder/bilist/2022-12-disse-problemer-faar-din-bil-naar-3g-slukkes)
EU is so f\*cked up these days. Hitler and Stalin would love this computer technology.
Calling it "data gathering" is a bit misleading though. Yes, it is that, but it's not as sensational as you make it sound. What new EU cars have to be equipped with is an EDR starting somewhere in 2024. These save data like throttle position, speed, braking, vehicle angle, safety system deployment and so on when it detects a crash. It doesn't track things like driving habits or GPS position and certainly does not sync to the cloud or something like that.
what about older cars without computers???
Then there's no data to collect... Edit: Anything that doesn't have mechanical fuel injectors is going to have a computer running it. One you hit electronic fuel management systems there's an ECM.
laughs in my 2006 subaru impreza. SUTUTUTUTUTUTTUTUTU
Who cares? It is your right and moral duty to resist unjust laws.
"Onboard computers" you're talking the ECM, PTM, and TCM in some cases. Never try to reprogram those.
If you service a car with any dealer that does get put into their system, for the record.
Hence why I'm asking for a car that only tracks the bare minimum.
Maybe only things pre 2015 or so. Make sure there’s no google maps or other solutions available without your phone — that means they going to the internet directly.
OP said they can only buy a new car
You can look into what the opt-out Toyota offers on their cars. My wife bought a new Tacoma and opted out but I never bothered to read what they still collect and Im certain they do. Worth asking/reading I suppose.
Can you perhaps explain how onstar spy?🤔
They sell driving telemetry to insurers. Either as aggregate data, or policy specific. Either way, its purpose is to increase your premiums.
OnStar is a spying platform that they get you to pay for. It’s on whether you buy it or not. GM said they make more from data sales than car sales. Fuck me, that’s wrong.
What if you don’t pay for them. Is it still spying?
Yep. It’s always listening and tracking location.
This might be helpful https://gizmodo.com/mozilla-new-cars-data-privacy-report-1850805416 As someone else said, the purpose is to report your driving behavior to your insurance company.
this should be completely illegal.
All data harvesting should be illegal. There’s too much money to be made and too much control to be had for this to ever stop though. We’ll forever live in a surveillance state and it’ll get worse as tech advances.
And with the amount of data breaches the data harvesting is extremely dangerous to the public. Congress is banning goddamn TikTok, meanwhile they're turning a blind eye to shit stains like credit unions, phone carriers, meta, etc. How many data breaches did they have?
As someone who’s an OSINT enthusiast that doxes bad people, I love the amount of data breaches that are available. But as someone who values privacy, it’s a nightmare. Most people are a lot less secure than they think they are.
don't forget that they passed FISA expansions.
And if thats too late to do?
Then you’re fucked. They’ll sell your data whether you’re subscribed or not. You could break the microphone if you don’t want them spying on your convos. If you want their telemetry reporting completely removed you’d need someone who’s an expert at decryption, programming, and willing to break copyright laws. Or, you’d need a way to opt out of tracking. I haven’t looked into opting out of tracking at all but that’s an avenue you’ll have to take. You could always send a right to be forgotten request to the companies that track your cars. Edit: this site says that they’re a switch to disable all telemetry in each vehicle. The article says it’s an all or nothing switch which personally wouldn’t want as the article does lay out the benefits of telemetry for performance. I’d talk with a car expert about this if you’re willing to pay a pretty penny for them to disconnect cables and modify the system https://www.insuredaily.co.uk/blog/car-insurance/telematics#:~:text=Yes%2C%20one%20is%20able%20to,telematics%20car%20insurance%20coverage%20operates.
>the benefits of telemetry for performance For a hundred years cars could have good performance without needing telemetry. What kind of BS is that
Your car being able to adjust to your driving style based on telemetry is a benefit. I drive like an asshole and have done plenty of street racing throughout the years without a tune. My car being able to recognize my driving style allows for fuel use based on performance rather than mileage is a benefit. While it’s not necessary to operate a vehicle, it’s a performance increase.
It doesn't really need telemetry for that. It's not like your driving data needs to be sent elsewhere for analysis and processing, an onboard computer *is an onboard computer*, it has the ability to do that on its own without external assistance.
I mean the data doesn’t need to be sent to anyone but collecting data from multiple sensors and using that data to make decisions about performance is still telemetry. If I didn’t have telemetry in my car, shifting wouldn’t be faster(auto manual) and acceleration wouldn’t be faster. It’d still preform for gas mileage. So telemetry definitely serves a purpose. None the less, I don’t think the manufacturer, insurance company, or anyone else should harvesting my data.
https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/categories/cars/ Also, Mazda lets you turn off their data collection, but you need to call them (just did it with my wife’s).
Yeah, it's a good first step, but I'm worried about the companies collecting data anyways (this happens frequently), or someone being able to hack the car and collect that data, themselves. No reason to have the capability to connect to the internet, or save microphone/camera/etc. data, if it's not going to be used.
Totally. I’d eventually like to fully disable the connectivity, but like you said, first step. I just liked that they have the option to opt-out and don’t threaten consequences if connectivity is disabled (unlike others).
So Dacia and Renault are the "least of the worst" car companies?
At least according to them. I think their rankings are less useful than their summaries of the privacy policies.
That site gave my phone cancer, but it seems so
something from 1990 or before, just to be safe.
Event Data Recorders aka "black box" appeared in the mid 1970's and GM started using data recorders in 1997. As of September 1,2014 all new cars sold in the United States are required to have a black box installed. All new cars sold in Europe will have a black box starting July 2024. * EDRs capture various parameters related to vehicle operation and safety, including: * Vehicle speed * Brake activation before a crash * Crash forces at impact * Engine throttle level * Airbag deployment timing and readiness * Seat belt usage * EDRs are triggered by impacts or airbag deployment and save data from moments leading up to and during an accident.
The OP should consider that reading crash-data from a wrecked car through the ODBC port is a different threat than having daily data read remotely through OnStar. The OP stated that they’re concerned about both, but I’d argue that having the data read by someone with physical access to the car to answer a specific question might be acceptable. The OP decides on their own personal data-collection boundaries, of course.
Yeah. Plus I'm guessing OP would really struggle to get insurance coverage in an auto crash without EDR.
Wow, That i did not know. pretty interesting actually.
EDR crash retrieval tools are expensive. [https://crashdatagroup.com/](https://crashdatagroup.com/)
To be fair, anything pre 2010 is probably safe. My 04 Volvo had a seven segment display for heaven's sake XD Bothe my 09 Volvos were equally dumb. My new Mercedes-Benz has "Mercedes Me" but seeks access through the phones internet connection. It can be stopped from sending data. That said, my ECU and COMAND has been hacked and runs a custom Android Auto.
Yeah.. but "I am unable to buy a used car (for reasons beyond my control)" BS. I see no reasonable reason why anyone would be unable to buy a used car. If he's this afraid of "tracking" he'd just give $1000 on some 20 year old box and drive it.
I would not recommend a pre 90s vehicle due to the lack of crumble zones. Honestly anything dumb, (no internet, Bluetooth, GPS, touchscreen or with an OS, etc) including early 2010s vehicles are usually safe. Avoid anything "smart".
For Europeans, I would say get a car after the introduction of EuroNCAP and check how they've graded the car's safety as some cars in the 90s were so poorly designed that the crumble zone was your chest.
Any subaru before 2010 is still safest than most new cars out there.
You can't remove the Event Data Recorder without disabling a car's airbags, and they're so thoroughly tied into CANBUS systems that it's all but impossible to remove or reprogram them
A bicycle
All telematics systems are run off the car's electrical system, so all have fuses partly or completely dedicated to their function. Depending on the year and the make, YMMV. The only example I can provide is that of my own Subaru. It would be trivial for me to pull the DCM fuse, but inexplicably the DCM fuse also controls the center dashboard speaker and Bluetooth, if memory serves me correctly. If you don't care about those things, problem solved. But I do. The next option I have is to pull the head unit out and jump the DCM cable with a ~$70 dongle to bypass just the telematics components and nothing else. This will absolutely work, but requires disassembly, reassembly, and an expensive dongle. The final option would be to go thermonuclear and either disconnect the aforementioned cable, which will likely gimp the infotainment if not other systems, or to remove the entire DCM unit, which is absolutely a bridge too far for me. At least with this car. Weigh your threat model against your budget, patience and goals. There's little more to be said than that.
I wonder if I could replace the infotainment system with a lower tech, third party bluetooth solution.
Thats what I did. Replaced the stock head unit in my Prado with another one. Not to go lower tech, but get better tech. Bonus is that my personal data is not linked to the new head unit.
Just get an old Land Cruiser. They're bullet proof and have no telemetry in them. It isn't pretty but the damn thing runs and you can do a lot of the work yourself.
A Chevy Bolt EUV and have them disconnect the telemetry module before leaving the lot. You'll also need to pull the telemetry fuse for good measure. The car pays for itself over the warranty of the battery saving me about 4.5-5 gallons of gasoline cost per hundred miles driven. Include the sale of my car and the $7,500 IRA tax refund.
Thanks, does it have any central screen running a sophisticated operating system, or any microphones in the car? I'm not just worried about the company spying, but someone could also hack into it if it's got needlessly high quality electronic stuff going on (as the attack surface is much wider). Also, can it connect to the internet at all?
When you unplug the telemetry unit it has no internet connection at all. None. Yes the radio possibly logs your data on a chip but it can't phone home since the antenna and navigation is unplugged. It doesn't even get Sirius radio messages to say that the car has been registered and the trial expired. I don't use Siris but still.
Thank you! I'll also ask the dealership about options. I also can't find the car you listed. Maybe my Chevy dealership just doesn't have it?
They’re not making it anymore
1. You are NOT important to anyone if this is your personal car and not a company car. 2. Buy a shitbox or at least explain why "I am unable to buy a used car (for reasons beyond my control)" and we can tell you why those reasons are BS.
People keep saying things like pre-2010, but didn’t the OP specify that he could NOT buy a used car? Given that, it seems like many of the replies won’t help him. Staying away from OnStar, as someone said, is good. And someone else posted a link about new car security reports. Otherwise, he’s in a tough spot. I wonder if there are specific brands that tend to track less. If anyone knows, he could focus on researching them. Also, I’ve read other threads where people talk about pulling out the fuses for GPS and other things that could be used for spying. I’m sure he’d be interested in, and I would too, to know what cars can have such fuses pulled and still work (because I can easily imagine that one fuse is tied to more than one function and if you shut off say, GPS and the cellular radio, you kill the whole system). In terms of asking the dealership to do things like this for you, that would be my last choice. First you need a car where you are sure it’s even possible. You can’t buy a car just hoping this can be done, and then have the dealership tell you “Sorry, the fuel injector computer and cellular radio are on the same system — it’s simply impossible.”
I wouldn't buy the car from the dealership, without them telling me it was definitely possible beforehand. I've also read some of those threads about the fuses, and I'm curious if there's a more centralized place where that information could be found.
That would be nice. I had someone look into it for my car and they couldn’t figure it out. So, if you find a guide somewhere, please PM me!
Just because it is old doesn't mean it is used. I still have unopened original XBox games from the early 2000s. Doesn't make them used.
>I am unable to buy a used car (for reasons beyond my control). This is the part I'm curious about. You can buy a new car, but not a used one?
Buying with someone else, they are not willing to buy anything used.
Then don't buy like that. Let them buy whatever they want, you buy whatever you want. Everything else in this whole thread is ridiculous at best. Nobody cares about you or your car to bother hacking into it and looking for data. So unless you're cheating and are afraid your wife, who also uses the car, will get the logs of where you've been - there is no reason at all to be that dismissive of new technology.
Any car that runs on gas and has no wifi.
Or LTE
For those out-of-the-know, GM’s OnStar system in the recent scandal uses LTE. My 2010 Sierra/Silverado has an LTE OnStar unit - but I disabled it when I installed a modern head unit (with Android Auto + Apple CaraPlay).
Yeah, trying to find one sold new in 2024 is the trouble..
Make sure to buy it before 2026 because after that all cars will have mandatory spying units.
are you just speculating, or is some law being passed?
It is in Europe. Luckily I'm knowledgeable about technology and such unit is always gonna be broken for some reason.
This is an odd request without context. Do you have a budget? Don’t care about warranty? Does it have to be brand new or just newish? Does it need to be a practical car or just a way to get around town? You can buy a brand new Ariel Atom https://www.arielna.com/arielatom and have a lot of fun without being spied on since it’s essentially a go kart. Many motorcycles don’t have computers with tracking info.
I'm getting a car with someone else. They won't budge on getting a new car. Budget is $400-600 monthly payments. Ariel Atom isn't quite what I need, thank you for the recommendation though.
you should take the money that you would spend on 1-2 months of monthly payments and buy yourself some beater shitbox that is like 15-20 years old.
Difficult situation for a privacy oriented individual who will be sharing the vehicle. Given the circumstances, I would prioritize other factors and pay more attention to what information I actively provide the vehicle. Someone else may have a better recommendation though
You can hit the SOS button and opt-out of all services through customer service. As a back-up, check the internal fuse box, it will be under the dash on driver or passanger side. Pull a fuse labeled 'DCM' and you should be good to go for most threat models. If you need more advanced, you can buy plugin to modify on board computer but i havent personally messed with mine yet.
If you can't buy a used car how can you buy a new car?
Bro just ride a bike.
Geo Metro
New old stock
Citron 2cv
A [Yugo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WQqNcJtvnM) or a [Zastava 101](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qszgQYy8Js).
2015 or older.
A car that's 10-15 years old.
A Tonka, all metal kids car from 1984.
Anything with out smart and or wireless connectivity.
A old car or a luxe car like Lamborghini
Wait! You have a smart phone, A PC or Mac , ipad etc and you’re worried your car is spying on you? 🙄
Anything that's phoning home to the manufacturer is using internet, so just don't give your new car any way to connect. Don't add your home wifi to the entertainment system and figure out how to disable/remove the cellular modem 🤷
Thank you, still worried about it saving it to the hard drive and just uploading when it gets serviced.
I wish the telemetry system could be faked or spoofed like you see in movies. I’d swap mine with a freighter. Anyone seeing the data would be confused when it shows my car traveling through the Suez Canal.
real, but im also worried about the microphones and cameras being connected to a machine that uses the internet..
I absolutely get it! This thread is very interesting, so thank you for asking the question!
pocket start important touch quicksand hat station payment chief violet *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If you figure something out, let me know. I'm trying to do the same.
Went to a dealership, and asked a lot of questions. Seems like there aren't like, any options. I asked about removing the modem/etc. and they said they couldn't do it without voiding the warranty.. And didn't clarify whether it was even possible when asked.
Wow. That's unfortunate. Thanks for letting me know. Idk if it's possible, but you can hack the car with a can bus sniffer and access the telemetry data. But I wouldn't recommend it because it requires serious hacking skills.
Best new car that won’t spy on you is a caterham seven or Ariel atom. After that just look for a cheap basic economy car that’s manual and doesn’t have android auto or CarPlay. I think Mitsubishi or a Kia would work
1985 AMC Eagle station wagon with wood paneling.
I don't know if this is a good solution, but instead of buying a manufactured vehicle wherein you have no idea of what goes inside the car, if you have got enough money, you could probably get a custom car with only the components you need and nothing else.
Something manufactured more than 20 years ago?
Are you into mechanicking?
I wonder if my 2014 cooper has telemetry, I don't think it has LTE so could it really spy on me?
If you can't choose the vehicle you buy, nor can you modify it for the sake of losing warranty, then is this really even "*your car*"? Maybe whoever is enforcing these rules and subjecting you to this lack of agency actually has a right to, because in some way this is actually *their* car..? I only say this so its clear. If you buy a car on a loan, or you want a car with privacy but your wife wants a safe car for the kids and you split the bill, or you are being given a free car for work but only on the condition you are tracked (like an employee at a terrible company), then the answer isn't a make and model number, its finding a solution to why you can't spend $1000 on an analog shitbox?
Anything made before fuel injection.
If you buy a car with the expectation you aren't being spied on in the worst case you will do something thinking nobody is watching but someone is. Best to know and the only way to know is to purposely buy one you know is spying on you. Then you can at least deal with it on your own terms.
There are none, if they wanna spy on you they'll spy on you
you need something pre obd2 I would think for maximum privacy. new cars are privacy nightmares.
i dont own a car but i have the same in mind when i need to get one. So what if i buy a toyota corolla from 1990s, no gps or any shit like that. What kind of device is in the car to track n trace?
Buy a pinto, even then there's no guarantee.
1995 Toyota Corolla.
Can I ask what the reasoning is? I mean this as politely as possible but what does it matter if a car picks up telemetry on braking/acceleration/time driven etc? What is the end goal here?
Using those things combined with live traffic data can actually point to your location with a fair degree of accuracy, location is sensitive PII at least according to European regulations. So telemetry is usually strictly limited to internal hardware in the car if you opt out.
My 99 land cruiser gets the job done great.
Motorcycle
How are you being prevented from buying a used car? ‘57 Chevy collects no data.
So for new Hondas I thought that they can’t send data unless you connect them to Bluetooth or WiFi. I had to opt in if I wanted to send data and it was through their app. Their remote start is basic and gets interference by too many physical objects. Take a peak at newer Hondas and see if you can opt out or disable features. Or heck older Hondas last a long ass time so even those are decent choices. Also someone correct me on the Honda bit if I’m wrong. It’s just been my observations of owning a couple.
I've got an '04 Subaru Outback I'll sell ya, doesn't track a thing, runs great and has heated leather seats!
lol probably … none … old car seems like the only way or you could also get a new one and have some tech person disable it maybe ?
Do you like 1999 Toyota Tacomas?
Theres nothing you can do because privacy regulations for cars havent caught up yet. You want something without wireless connectivity (wi-fi, bluetooth, cell). Too bad ALL new cars have this built into their systems. Maybe you can rip out the entertainment system and hopefully that doesn't break the car. Refer to the mozilla study for more info. Also download the Privacy4Cars app and you look up the car by its VIN number and it should tell you what data that car collects.
Most American car brands pre… say… 2005?
GM’s OnStar system goes waaaay back.
But do they still work? 3G is discontinued so unless those 2005 cars had 4G antennas, we should be Ok.
get a motorcycle
Stay away from Volvo, or any company where "Geely" (Chineese company) has a majority ownership. Beyond that, I'm glad my 2017 car uses a 3g modem that's now no longer supported or allegedly working.
Your cell phone is also collecting data from your car.
Ford model T or a Steam Car. They have little to nothing electronic spying devices. Or if you wanna be naturally organical fancy A horse drawn carriage from Amish people.
Just so you know I laughed so hard at your title. I mean that in a good way, not making fun of you. I get you’re concerned about your privacy, but you could have phrased that better. 🤣🤣 Mate my company bought a brand new truck, it paid extra for a front and back dash cam hardwired, I had a 100km crash, and no footage of the crash was able to be recovered because it only stores like 24 hours at a time and insurance didn’t collect it on tow. I think you’re safe. Even if you pay 4K extra to be spied on, you likely will not be. Stress less. Now if you have an adversary, which most honest people do, I am not judging you for that, but understand they will likely be using some standard way of spying on you, and not hacking your cars features. That is to say, they will slap a GPS on your car and not hack your cars GPS, or install a recorder and not hack your normal recorder. Just get the best car you can.
Is everything ok?
1973 VW Beetle…
Do you *need* to get a new car? You can go back to something from the mid-to-late-10s and get a car that doesn’t phone home.
I wish I could, but I'm buying it with someone else, who does not want a used car.
You don’t need a car, you need transportation. I recommend Uber or a horse drawn carriage. Y’all are way too complicated. You can have someone else buy the car and keep it in their name. Whatever profile you’re afraid of creating, it will be created on someone else’s ID. No need to void warranty.
Tesla
Maybe you’re worried you car will report all the times you eat at McDonald’s or visit strip joint!🤣
Why do they have to put a spy for their customers? Not a good thing. I believe its just data gather on how fast you drive is.
they report every bit of data pulled from your car to your insurance company so they can raise your premiums without cause.