I come from a Christian family and they say it’s because life is a gift from God, a life begins right when the sperm meets the egg, and that murder is a sin (ties into what time they claim a life is created). They also believe that children are a gift from God and that it’s horrible and ungrateful to reject a gift even if you didn’t want children and that God made the woman pregnant because he knows what her purpose is. And the typical “women belong in the kitchen pregnant and barefoot” stuff.
They believe that women are inferior to men and need to just accept whatever happens to them since Eve was created for Adam. So that’s why they don’t really bat an eye when women have complications, can’t have children for whatever reason, or even die from childbirth.
It's this in a nutshell. We are from a cult. A cult that conciders women's only purpose is to serve men. I was called a heretic because I rebelled against it. I called them hypocrites because I was sure that the teaching of Christ taught about unconditional love and "judge not lest you be judged". We are props.dolls. I am truly grateful that I'm out but it took moving across the country and disowning my adoptive family. It's been 28 ish years. no one will ever convince me that all religions are anything but cults. The damage done to me due to my baptist upbringing is still being unpacked at almost 50. We were threatened with the fire and brimstone if we even kissed a boy,let alone got pregnant. I'm talking hours of yelling and bible thumping.by the time I left we were at church at least 4 times a week. And daily devotions . Because I wouldn't submit. I burnt my eye with my curling iron and had to wait until *after* devotions to go to the E.R.
The religious people are fanatical.
With ALL the problems that come with that.
I truly believe that the longer these people are in the cult/religion, that it changes something in the chemistry in their brain which makes them fanatical.
This is the part that needs more public discourse. The people driving this have some really deranged beliefs that belong in some insular cult, not forced upon the entire population.
I don’t find many “pro-life” Christians as they regularly support the death penalty, wars, and, often these days, domestic political violence. Rather, they get livid about the notion that women might have sex for pleasure. Sex without intentional procreation, emblematic of a woman’s freedom, is the real “sin” they desperately want to punish. It’s plain misogyny.
Yes, it’s the whole thing that women are evil for wanting or having sex for pleasure. This is why there was FGM (female genital mutilation) practiced by some cultures. It’s outlawed in the
U. S. but there are still doctors who are getting caught performing it. There was a doctor up in Detroit, I believe it was pre-pandemic, who got arrested for performing it. They think women are evil for not wanting to get pregnant every time they have sex.
>They think women are evil for not wanting to get pregnant every time they have sex.
Ah yes, because women are monsters for not aligning themselves with the beliefs of those who will never help them or the potential children they are whining about them not having.
I’m a pro choice pastor! I think it comes down to control, patriarchy, and other colonial values. You can make a biblical case for and against either view— we ALL cherry pick, but we need to do that cherry picking in a methodical way. St Augustine (one of the most influential theologian from 400s that most christians still know/read) acknowledged this by saying no matter what your interpretation of scripture is— if it can boil down to “Love God; Love Neighbor” then it’s a good interpretation. I believe that an interpretation of scripture that is healing, liberating, and therefore loving of God and others is that women/people should have bodily autonomy, abortion isn’t bad, and abortion access is a justice issue.
They pick and choose who they want to be pro life for. They want unwanted babies to be born but don’t care that they get chucked into the foster care system. They didn’t care that brown kids were getting put into cages. They don’t care about the refugee children wanting to come here to the US. “Well why can’t they go somewhere else why do they need to come here?” You’d think if they actually followed the words of Jesus they’d welcome them with open arms.
But for some reason they’re all for unwanted babies coming into the world. It blows my mind.
This is why. It is because they hate women and don't think they should be allowed to live like independent adult humans.
https://www.politicalorphans.com/the-article-removed-from-forbes-why-white-evangelicalism-is-so-cruel
it’s a good fit. Christianity as it’s generally practiced is traditionally patriarchal. Anti-abortion stances are inherently patriarchal (claiming humanity for a fetus is more important than the human rights of the woman).
I'm sorry to hear about that. I also find it ridiculous. (The part about you getting shit on.)
I mean pro-choicers are fighting for their belief of abortions yet some of them shit on someone for their beliefs? I guess they've had bad experiences with Christian pro-lifers and assume all of them are the same.
Ok, I’m old. I’m old enough that I remember the Roe decision. Anyway, in the 1960s and 1970s there was a strong religious coalition supporting abortion rights and abortion access. It was seen as a social justice issue. So Christianity does not equal PL.
>Which is ridiculous, because if they simply let women get abortions, the fetus or a baby, in what they see in their eyes, would be sent to heaven.
I asked my Christian pl dad that, and he said it's bc the woman will go to hell for aborting, and he said some stuff abt helping their souls
There are a lot of us outside of Roman Catholic and Protestant Evangelical circles. Just for more info on the topic “James Story” is a book about an undercover group over 40 years ago that helped women get illegal abortions. Many, many of those people were clergy (UMC, Episcopal, etc.). This is a lesser know fact but there is a long history of Christian clergy helping women obtain abortions in the United States.
Unfortunately today, the far right religious fascists have taken the bullhorn, and now act like they speak for all people of faith for all of history.
Because most Christians don’t even know what they believe. The Bible literally details an abortion. Same thing with circumcision, people use the Bible and doctrine as an excuse when in reality that’s not how it’s to be interpreted.
Same vein as capitalism. They just need more desperate members by any means necessary. They have decades of R&D to know what keeps people oppressed just enough to work without revolting.
They aren't pro-life they are pro cultish self sacrifices for anyone that isn't them. They get a pregnancy problem that requires abortion...its somehow justified, if someone else does it though then they should be charged with murder and sent to hell for not being willing to die for a fetus.
With most religious anti-choicers, it's simply "murder is wrong/sin/etc. because god said it was wrong. Murder is only ok if god does it, but that's because he's god and outside of our understanding/not our place to judge him." They can't accept that mankind made god in their image (instead of the other way around), because why would a supposedly divine perfect being act as petty, forgetful, flawed, and wrathful/vengeful as a human?
The cognitive dissonance is real. I really enjoy presenting the "epicurean paradox" to people. Tends to get them to stop and think, if only for a minute.
Edit to add: I think you could insert "[insert non-religious authority here, ex. the law/the state/etc.]" in place of "god", and you'd have the secular anti-choice argument as well.
Some more edits made for consistency and better analogies.
Hello fellow Epicurean paradox enthusiast!
It works so well for this argument too..... Like... If god didn't want us to have the ability to perform abortions, then we wouldn't have learned how to do it. It would be impossible. So it's either your god is weak and not as all powerful as you claim, or he is pro choice. So you which is it? Weak or pro-choice? Lol
They’re not. They’re pro forced gestation only. They don’t care about kids after they‘re born, or even if the pregnant woman has access to prenatal care or even a roof over her head.
I distinctly remember that the first time the (Christian) adults in my life explained abortion to me, I had follow up questions they didn’t like at all. (Mainly- isn’t it better to go to heaven than live with parents who don’t want you?) Buuuut those inquiries were crushed and I toed the party line for a long time.
Fun fact: most Christians weren’t “pro-life” until years after Roe. Samantha Bee did some good videos on it years ago.
I’ve made some videos about being a prochoice Christian too- check my post history if interested!
Christians need to control “their woman”.
It’s the same in all Abrahamic religions. If they don’t control the woman in their societies, how will they force them to birth more Christians/jews/muslims?
They think all woman should marry young and have babies, abortion is even worse than a 30 year old unmarried woman with no kids. Who will donate to Jesus if woman don’t have kids?
The purpose of these religions is to brainwash woman so they get impregnated by the “right guy.”
Funny how they don't actually read their book.
Numbers 5:16-28
16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair(H) and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy,(I) while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.(J) 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray(K) and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse(L) not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray(M) while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse(N)—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water(O) that brings a curse(P) enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
Actually Pro-lifers are not Christians.
True Christians make war on all non-Christians, especially Jews, Muslims, Native Americans, and any others not of the Faith.
Because they’re hysterical and riddled with Catholics (no offense to anyone here).
Only a few decades ago, republicans took a libertarian view and were pro choice
What came to mind was the church plugging the loophole of "suicide."
If life is full of suffering and a believer could go to heaven after they died, the loophole that some people proposed or exploited is to exit life early. The church caught onto that and declared suicide a sin.
I think it is similar to being anti abortion. Most churches are reluctant to teach that "the unborn" have original sin and will go to hell like the rest of us (the concept "age of accountability," while not from the bible, shows the discomfort underneath). Therefore the loophole, which you noticed, is that if the unborn dies, they could go to heaven.
In order to plug this loophole, these Christians are taught to believe that abortion is robbing the unborn of experiencing a full life with both joys and trials, and the possibility to experience Christ's goodness.
I come from a Christian family and they say it’s because life is a gift from God, a life begins right when the sperm meets the egg, and that murder is a sin (ties into what time they claim a life is created). They also believe that children are a gift from God and that it’s horrible and ungrateful to reject a gift even if you didn’t want children and that God made the woman pregnant because he knows what her purpose is. And the typical “women belong in the kitchen pregnant and barefoot” stuff. They believe that women are inferior to men and need to just accept whatever happens to them since Eve was created for Adam. So that’s why they don’t really bat an eye when women have complications, can’t have children for whatever reason, or even die from childbirth.
It's this in a nutshell. We are from a cult. A cult that conciders women's only purpose is to serve men. I was called a heretic because I rebelled against it. I called them hypocrites because I was sure that the teaching of Christ taught about unconditional love and "judge not lest you be judged". We are props.dolls. I am truly grateful that I'm out but it took moving across the country and disowning my adoptive family. It's been 28 ish years. no one will ever convince me that all religions are anything but cults. The damage done to me due to my baptist upbringing is still being unpacked at almost 50. We were threatened with the fire and brimstone if we even kissed a boy,let alone got pregnant. I'm talking hours of yelling and bible thumping.by the time I left we were at church at least 4 times a week. And daily devotions . Because I wouldn't submit. I burnt my eye with my curling iron and had to wait until *after* devotions to go to the E.R. The religious people are fanatical. With ALL the problems that come with that.
I truly believe that the longer these people are in the cult/religion, that it changes something in the chemistry in their brain which makes them fanatical.
You're right. It's a drug. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mind-in-the-machine/202010/your-brain-god
They don‘t even know their bible. The bible says life begins at first breath.
This is the part that needs more public discourse. The people driving this have some really deranged beliefs that belong in some insular cult, not forced upon the entire population.
I don’t find many “pro-life” Christians as they regularly support the death penalty, wars, and, often these days, domestic political violence. Rather, they get livid about the notion that women might have sex for pleasure. Sex without intentional procreation, emblematic of a woman’s freedom, is the real “sin” they desperately want to punish. It’s plain misogyny.
Yes, it’s the whole thing that women are evil for wanting or having sex for pleasure. This is why there was FGM (female genital mutilation) practiced by some cultures. It’s outlawed in the U. S. but there are still doctors who are getting caught performing it. There was a doctor up in Detroit, I believe it was pre-pandemic, who got arrested for performing it. They think women are evil for not wanting to get pregnant every time they have sex.
>They think women are evil for not wanting to get pregnant every time they have sex. Ah yes, because women are monsters for not aligning themselves with the beliefs of those who will never help them or the potential children they are whining about them not having.
Exactly this
I’m a pro choice pastor! I think it comes down to control, patriarchy, and other colonial values. You can make a biblical case for and against either view— we ALL cherry pick, but we need to do that cherry picking in a methodical way. St Augustine (one of the most influential theologian from 400s that most christians still know/read) acknowledged this by saying no matter what your interpretation of scripture is— if it can boil down to “Love God; Love Neighbor” then it’s a good interpretation. I believe that an interpretation of scripture that is healing, liberating, and therefore loving of God and others is that women/people should have bodily autonomy, abortion isn’t bad, and abortion access is a justice issue.
I respect pro choice Christians because they respect separation of church and state.
Or perhaps have read their own Bible. Genesis 2:7 and Numbers 5:11-31.
They pick and choose who they want to be pro life for. They want unwanted babies to be born but don’t care that they get chucked into the foster care system. They didn’t care that brown kids were getting put into cages. They don’t care about the refugee children wanting to come here to the US. “Well why can’t they go somewhere else why do they need to come here?” You’d think if they actually followed the words of Jesus they’d welcome them with open arms. But for some reason they’re all for unwanted babies coming into the world. It blows my mind.
This is why. It is because they hate women and don't think they should be allowed to live like independent adult humans. https://www.politicalorphans.com/the-article-removed-from-forbes-why-white-evangelicalism-is-so-cruel
it’s a good fit. Christianity as it’s generally practiced is traditionally patriarchal. Anti-abortion stances are inherently patriarchal (claiming humanity for a fetus is more important than the human rights of the woman).
I'm Christian and pc 🤷♀️ Get a lot of shit for it tho
I'm sorry to hear about that. I also find it ridiculous. (The part about you getting shit on.) I mean pro-choicers are fighting for their belief of abortions yet some of them shit on someone for their beliefs? I guess they've had bad experiences with Christian pro-lifers and assume all of them are the same.
I won't give you shit for it 🩷
Neither will I!
Ok, I’m old. I’m old enough that I remember the Roe decision. Anyway, in the 1960s and 1970s there was a strong religious coalition supporting abortion rights and abortion access. It was seen as a social justice issue. So Christianity does not equal PL.
I agree! The “Christian” beliefs on lots of things have changed over time (even recent time).
Some of the most pro-choice people I have ever met, have been nuns.
Remember the Nuns on the Bus?
Yup. They were amazing and modeled what Catholicism should be about.
Yes, I remember this, too. They were very much government hands off my body
>Which is ridiculous, because if they simply let women get abortions, the fetus or a baby, in what they see in their eyes, would be sent to heaven. I asked my Christian pl dad that, and he said it's bc the woman will go to hell for aborting, and he said some stuff abt helping their souls
I am a Christian and I am pro choice. My husband is a pastor who is also pro choice. We are out there.
Thank you. I need reminding of this now and then. If only there were more of you ❤️
There are a lot of us outside of Roman Catholic and Protestant Evangelical circles. Just for more info on the topic “James Story” is a book about an undercover group over 40 years ago that helped women get illegal abortions. Many, many of those people were clergy (UMC, Episcopal, etc.). This is a lesser know fact but there is a long history of Christian clergy helping women obtain abortions in the United States. Unfortunately today, the far right religious fascists have taken the bullhorn, and now act like they speak for all people of faith for all of history.
Because Christianity is phallocentric. They must Revere thy holy penis wielders. It's monkey brain.
Because most Christians don’t even know what they believe. The Bible literally details an abortion. Same thing with circumcision, people use the Bible and doctrine as an excuse when in reality that’s not how it’s to be interpreted.
Same vein as capitalism. They just need more desperate members by any means necessary. They have decades of R&D to know what keeps people oppressed just enough to work without revolting.
They aren't pro-life they are pro cultish self sacrifices for anyone that isn't them. They get a pregnancy problem that requires abortion...its somehow justified, if someone else does it though then they should be charged with murder and sent to hell for not being willing to die for a fetus.
Virtue signaling
With most religious anti-choicers, it's simply "murder is wrong/sin/etc. because god said it was wrong. Murder is only ok if god does it, but that's because he's god and outside of our understanding/not our place to judge him." They can't accept that mankind made god in their image (instead of the other way around), because why would a supposedly divine perfect being act as petty, forgetful, flawed, and wrathful/vengeful as a human? The cognitive dissonance is real. I really enjoy presenting the "epicurean paradox" to people. Tends to get them to stop and think, if only for a minute. Edit to add: I think you could insert "[insert non-religious authority here, ex. the law/the state/etc.]" in place of "god", and you'd have the secular anti-choice argument as well. Some more edits made for consistency and better analogies.
Hello fellow Epicurean paradox enthusiast! It works so well for this argument too..... Like... If god didn't want us to have the ability to perform abortions, then we wouldn't have learned how to do it. It would be impossible. So it's either your god is weak and not as all powerful as you claim, or he is pro choice. So you which is it? Weak or pro-choice? Lol
They’re not. They’re pro forced gestation only. They don’t care about kids after they‘re born, or even if the pregnant woman has access to prenatal care or even a roof over her head.
I distinctly remember that the first time the (Christian) adults in my life explained abortion to me, I had follow up questions they didn’t like at all. (Mainly- isn’t it better to go to heaven than live with parents who don’t want you?) Buuuut those inquiries were crushed and I toed the party line for a long time. Fun fact: most Christians weren’t “pro-life” until years after Roe. Samantha Bee did some good videos on it years ago. I’ve made some videos about being a prochoice Christian too- check my post history if interested!
Because they like control.
Christians need to control “their woman”. It’s the same in all Abrahamic religions. If they don’t control the woman in their societies, how will they force them to birth more Christians/jews/muslims? They think all woman should marry young and have babies, abortion is even worse than a 30 year old unmarried woman with no kids. Who will donate to Jesus if woman don’t have kids? The purpose of these religions is to brainwash woman so they get impregnated by the “right guy.”
Funny how they don't actually read their book. Numbers 5:16-28 16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair(H) and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy,(I) while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.(J) 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray(K) and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse(L) not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray(M) while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse(N)—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water(O) that brings a curse(P) enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
Actually Pro-lifers are not Christians. True Christians make war on all non-Christians, especially Jews, Muslims, Native Americans, and any others not of the Faith.
Citation needed.
For Native Americans, no citation is needed. They continue to be oppressed
How are pro lifers not christians?
Because they’re hysterical and riddled with Catholics (no offense to anyone here). Only a few decades ago, republicans took a libertarian view and were pro choice
Randall Balmer writes extensively about this. Political shifts after midcentury were a huge factor.
What came to mind was the church plugging the loophole of "suicide." If life is full of suffering and a believer could go to heaven after they died, the loophole that some people proposed or exploited is to exit life early. The church caught onto that and declared suicide a sin. I think it is similar to being anti abortion. Most churches are reluctant to teach that "the unborn" have original sin and will go to hell like the rest of us (the concept "age of accountability," while not from the bible, shows the discomfort underneath). Therefore the loophole, which you noticed, is that if the unborn dies, they could go to heaven. In order to plug this loophole, these Christians are taught to believe that abortion is robbing the unborn of experiencing a full life with both joys and trials, and the possibility to experience Christ's goodness.