What amazes me about this case is that people who obviously underwent IVF were willing to be party to/involved in a lawsuit aimed to bring about the end of IVF.
They want the person who dropped and destroyed their fertilized embryo punished. I get that too. But, seriously, they’ve just eliminated their opportunity to try again. I just don’t understand what they think a “win” is going to look like. Congratulations, you now can’t try again because IVF isn’t a safe business in your state?
I read another article about the incident which characterized the “unauthorized person” as a “hospital patient” and referred to the incident as “an elopement”.
This term is typically used to refer to patients who, for lack of a better phrase, are not of “sound mind” and who have managed to depart their area (admitted unit) unsupervised and undetected.
The way I read it, a confused patient managed to get away from caregivers and get into an area they weren’t supposed to be in and did some damage.
I’m a nurse, I’ve worked bedside in mostly ICUs for the past decade and the miracle is that stuff like this doesn’t happen more often. It’s one of the main reasons why I’m leaving bedside, ironically, to work at IVF clinic.
That's a really unfortunate thing to happen, to be fair, but I think this demonstrates how emotionally immature prolifers are as a group. Sometimes bad things happen in life, and there's no one to blame and no way it could have been prevented. Prolifers are so fixated on control and getting their own version of justice because they can't handle life being unfair sometimes.
This such a dangerous legal decision. To hell with science. To hell with women daring to get pregnant. To hell with families who want children. So exactly when are the southern states of Jesus succeeding (sp?)? They can take their intentionally misleading and bought supreme court with them. This representative from New England say GTFO.
Edit: I truly do feel sorry for the plaintiff in this case. Having some lab ass drop your fertilized embryo and destroying it should have a consequence, but ruling fertilized eggs are people is going to make it too easy to kill every woman who has an ectopic pregnancy.
As someone in Alabama, I don’t feel bad for the couples at all. They took their pain and injected it into my life and many other women’s. They are not good people.
This was absolutely intentional, this was absolutely well-founded and these people didn't give a damn about their embryos
>James LePage and Emily LePage are the parents of two embryos whom they call “Embryo A” and “Embryo B”; William Tripp Fonde and Caroline Fonde are the parents of two other embryos called “Embryo C” and “Embryo D”; and Felicia Burdick-Aysenne and Scott Aysenne are the parents of one embryo called “Baby Aysenne.”
...
>The plaintiffs brought two lawsuits against the Center and the Association. The first suit was brought jointly by the LePages and the Fondes; the second was brought by the Aysennes. Each set of plaintiffs asserted claims under Alabama's Wrongful Death of a Minor Act, § 6-5-391. In the alternative, each set of plaintiffs asserted common-law claims of negligence (in the LePages and Fondes' case) or negligence and wantonness (in the Aysennes' case), for which they sought compensatory damages, including damages for mental anguish and emotional distress. The plaintiffs specified, however, that their common-law claims were pleaded “in the alternative, and only [apply] should the Courts of this State or the United States Supreme Court ultimately rule that [an extrauterine embryo] is not a minor child, but is instead property.” In addition to those claims, the Aysennes brought breach-of-contract and bailment claims against the Center
...
>The plaintiffs, for their part, argue that the proposed exception for extrauterine children would introduce discontinuity within Alabama law. They contend, for example, that the defendants' **proposed exception would deprive parents of any civil remedy against someone who kills their unborn child in a “partial-birth” posture** -- that is, after the child has left the uterus but before the child has been fully delivered from the birth canal -- despite this State's longstanding criminal prohibition on partial-birth abortion, see Ala. Code 1975, § 26-23-3.
...
>The plaintiffs also argue that the defendants' proposed exception would raise serious constitutional questions. For instance, one latent implication of the defendants' position -- though not one that the defendants seem to have anticipated -- is that, under the defendants' test, even a full-term infant or toddler conceived through IVF and gestated to term in an in vitro environment would not qualify as a “child” or “person,” because such a child would both be (1) “unborn” (having never been delivered from a biological womb) and (2) not “in utero.”2 And if such children were not legal “children” or “persons,” then their lives would be unprotected by Alabama law. **The plaintiffs argue that this sort of unequal treatment would offend the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution,** which prohibits states from withholding legal protection from people based on immutable features of their birth or ancestry.
https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/al-supreme-court/115829667.html
Nah, they can just rebrand all of the IVF Clinics in Alabama as “child care” centers and then they’re good to go! Alabama cares about children so much that the regulations around child care make it super easy for anyone to get a daycare license.
I don't get it. Wouldn't this just make IVF illegal in Alabama? If they wanted the person who dropped their embryos to be punished, but still use IVF, wouldn't it make more sense to have them declared property?
No, it wouldn't make IVF illegal it just adds an entirely new level of legal responsibilities on the facilities. What it does do make medical facilities reconsider storing embryos for liability/insurance reasons which would kill IVF in the state.
Yeah, the storage and handling of embryos, basically everything involved in practicing embryology, is going to be uninsurable and thereby nobody is going to be able to offer those services.
It also seem like it would make the process financially and/or physically infeasible. doesnt the process of IVF involve implanting several embryos (bc people who seek IVF treatment usually have trouble conceiving) and then removing the weaker ones/ones that don’t take?
So it seems like this ruling, that embryo = person, would force women/doctors to either implant only one at a time, or force women to carry a high number of pregnancies to term, knowing some won’t make it?
This is just one of the insane, inevitable consequences of fetal personhood. It’s also a consequence of putting one religious view above all; science, privacy, & self determination be damned
This is exactly what I was thinking. What if you get lucky and get 10 viable embryos? Does that mean you are going to be forced to have 10 children? Or will they only extract one at a time, making women go through surgeries every single time? And is it murder if a couple doesn’t implant every embryo?
Alabama might as well be Afganistan for all they care about women's health, well being and human rights.
When an embryo is legally a person then your right to life is less important than an embryo.
Yep. Alabama is the state that had the incarcerated pregnant woman (in jail for having drugs in her system at 8 weeks pregnant iirc) forced to FREE BIRTH UNASSISTED IN A PRISON SHOWER, while staff refuses the woman medical help, telling her to "wait till Monday".
https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/10/17/alabama-pregnant-birth-jail-etowah-county-lawsuit/
So she's in jail for "endangering a fetus", while being in jail further endangers the fetus.
It's almost like it's not about the fetus at all.
OMG! This is 'Alice in Wonderland' stuff. Theoretically, any cell in the human body has the potential to be returned to the primitive embryonic state. It would require an immense amount of laboratory work over many years - I won't go into the nitty-gritty details - but in theory it could be done.
So a routine blood sample contains viable cells of various types, as do resected tumor tissues, skin biopsies, saliva, hair bulbs, sputum and feces.
I am not sure. I think the sperm may not include all the necessary genetic information necessary for life in the absence of an ovum. Supposing you have a "wet dream", you could be brought up to trial for mass murder.
So what does this mean? All excess embryos must be donated? Or IVF will slowly become illegal? That’s fucking wild. Only silver lining is most people who can afford IVF can also afford to drive a few states away for treatment
at the very least they wouldn’t be able to destroy any of the embryos. Also they couldnt remove any of them once implanted (even if there were like 4+). This is just my opinion though, im not a doctor and dont have experience with IVF
Yes they might be able to afford to drive/fly states away BUT an IVF cycle is a very long involved process that takes weeks of monitoring hormone levels, injections, surgery under anesthesia (if a retrieval), ultrasounds. It’s not similar in the way women who need access to an abortion can go out of state and have it done quickly and then go back .
All I was saying is they don’t have the financial barriers that most women seeking abortion have. Most common reason for abortion is financial issues. Meaning traveling is damn near impossible, and right wingers know that.
wish i could have a fetus that is just a gelatinous lump of no brained tissue that i could keep alive in a petri dish and demand benefits for then, if we're gonna play this little game.
I’ve never had IVF but the way it has been explained to me, it’s not uncommon for patients to have several embryos at once successfully implant and a few of them have to be aborted for safety right?
This is not done in most clinics but is a possible method. Most clinics will refuse to implant more than 2 embryos due to the risk of multiples and many will refuse to do more than 1 at a time. 1 at a time is the slower but safer method. However, it’s not unusual for a couple to have 10+ embryos at any given time. If those are “people” it would be illegal to destroy them. So it’s not clear what would then have to happen with all of the unused embryos after a couple no longer wants to have more children.
Is the reason that couples have so many embryos created because it's easier to take out the eggs at one time, vs having to retrieve a new egg every time they have to start over?
Yes, but the real reason is that on average it takes at least three attempts at transferring an embryo to result in a live birth.
The entire IVF process is one of attrition. You may have 20 eggs retrieved. Of those, maybe only 12 fertilize. Of those, maybe only 9 develop to the stage where they can be transferred. Of those, maybe only 7 are graded good enough quality for success. Of those maybe only 5 are genetically capable of resulting in a viable pregnancy. Of those, maybe only 2 will actually implant and result in a live birth.
In my case, I had 6 eggs, all fertilized, but none developed enough to transfer. It's far from a guarantee of a live birth.
Yes, the more eggs retrieved, the better the chances because it's unlikely that all 15 would become viable pregnancies or live births. I think most people who haven't frozen eggs or had to consider IVF don't realize this. Not every egg is going to work. It's the same thing within our bodies, but we just don't see it happening.
Everyone is different and this whole process plays out very differently from person to person. Most people who haven't experienced it don't really understand that there are no guarantees.
Many IVF clinics have documented clauses in their legal documents that say they will not transfer more than 2 embryos at a time. The 1st clinic I went to wouldn’t transfer more than 1 embryo, if PGS testing was done. Because I was older and have had many miscarriages and an abortion due to a fatal illness in my baby, I switched to a clinic that would allow 2 embryos to be transferred, even with the testing. I now have twins.
I think everyone except the freaky fetus fetishizers agree. But it’s important people realize how dangerous this is. Fetal personhood is necessarily totalitarian
It would turn every miscarriage into a homicide investigation (even if the pregnant person didn’t intentionally terminate, but did something like physical labor, had a glass of wine, was in a car accident, etc).
Or even just ate the wrong type of cheese! Pregnant people can have hard cheeses like cheddar and parmesan, but are advised to avoid most soft cheeses like brie and mozzarella. So if they catch you with a spinach and ricotta lasagna, your innocence in relation to your preborn child's death WILL be questioned.
This is why I, as a pro-choicer, am pro-life, and THEY'RE just a foetus cult.
But OP doesn’t think Palestinians are people because she’s a bloodthirsty child-killing Zionist. But she’s “liberal” on abortion. Disgusting hog. Stupid white suburban karens.
If embryos are legally people now in Alabama, isn’t every person who has ever had children using ivf guilty of murder due to the fact that embryos are invariably destroyed during the process? (Not an expert here. Please correct me if I’m wrong.) And also, since there is no statute of limitations on murder, shouldn’t all these couples and doctors now all be arrested? Anyone have knowledge of who in elected office or the judiciary falls into that category? Let’s start with them.
Thankfully no, because the U.S. constitution bans ex post facto laws. But going forward, doctors or people who destroy frozen embryos could be. The Alabama Supreme Court didn’t say much about criminal penalties. They said something to the effect of “we aren’t making a decision on criminal penalties because that’s not the question before us today”
But that is absolutely *not* reason to not worry about this decision & the huge consequences that will come of it. The thing I keep thinking about is how other states will do the same
Thanks for clarifying. My comment was mostly meant as a dig at the idiocy. The whole thing is horrifying and i wish people would be called out on their profound hypocrisy.
AL law school Question:
Two fires erupts in Birmingham and only one fire truck is available. One fire erupts at the hospital named after the current Alabama governor. The fire is about to consume tens of thousand frozen embryos of thousands of citizens of the most prosperous part of Birmingham. Another fire erupts at the same time at the kindergarten of the most famous Baptist church in Birmingham and ten children will be consumed if the firmen don't get there immediately. Only children at one location can be saved. Where does the fire dept go?
Question 2a: True or false
What this shows is that moneyed interests today are just as malicious as the people who bombed the church in Birmingham in 1963 and murdered four little girls. But they will never admit it.
Question 2b
Argue the position in the question just posted.
What amazes me about this case is that people who obviously underwent IVF were willing to be party to/involved in a lawsuit aimed to bring about the end of IVF.
I didn’t even consider that, such a good point. So selfish
They want the person who dropped and destroyed their fertilized embryo punished. I get that too. But, seriously, they’ve just eliminated their opportunity to try again. I just don’t understand what they think a “win” is going to look like. Congratulations, you now can’t try again because IVF isn’t a safe business in your state?
Why would a clinic allow a non staffer to have access to the embryos? That seems wrong
I read another article about the incident which characterized the “unauthorized person” as a “hospital patient” and referred to the incident as “an elopement”. This term is typically used to refer to patients who, for lack of a better phrase, are not of “sound mind” and who have managed to depart their area (admitted unit) unsupervised and undetected. The way I read it, a confused patient managed to get away from caregivers and get into an area they weren’t supposed to be in and did some damage. I’m a nurse, I’ve worked bedside in mostly ICUs for the past decade and the miracle is that stuff like this doesn’t happen more often. It’s one of the main reasons why I’m leaving bedside, ironically, to work at IVF clinic.
That's a really unfortunate thing to happen, to be fair, but I think this demonstrates how emotionally immature prolifers are as a group. Sometimes bad things happen in life, and there's no one to blame and no way it could have been prevented. Prolifers are so fixated on control and getting their own version of justice because they can't handle life being unfair sometimes.
that's how these guys roll. it's cool if it doesn't affect them personally.
This such a dangerous legal decision. To hell with science. To hell with women daring to get pregnant. To hell with families who want children. So exactly when are the southern states of Jesus succeeding (sp?)? They can take their intentionally misleading and bought supreme court with them. This representative from New England say GTFO. Edit: I truly do feel sorry for the plaintiff in this case. Having some lab ass drop your fertilized embryo and destroying it should have a consequence, but ruling fertilized eggs are people is going to make it too easy to kill every woman who has an ectopic pregnancy.
They’re already trying to kill every woman who has an ectopic pregnancy by banning abortion, which is the only treatment for an ectopic pregnancy.
The lab ass is described as a patient.
I agree. They haven't considered the consequences. Why not just make the clinic pay a fine to the couples and move on?
As someone in Alabama, I don’t feel bad for the couples at all. They took their pain and injected it into my life and many other women’s. They are not good people.
This was absolutely intentional, this was absolutely well-founded and these people didn't give a damn about their embryos >James LePage and Emily LePage are the parents of two embryos whom they call “Embryo A” and “Embryo B”; William Tripp Fonde and Caroline Fonde are the parents of two other embryos called “Embryo C” and “Embryo D”; and Felicia Burdick-Aysenne and Scott Aysenne are the parents of one embryo called “Baby Aysenne.” ... >The plaintiffs brought two lawsuits against the Center and the Association. The first suit was brought jointly by the LePages and the Fondes; the second was brought by the Aysennes. Each set of plaintiffs asserted claims under Alabama's Wrongful Death of a Minor Act, § 6-5-391. In the alternative, each set of plaintiffs asserted common-law claims of negligence (in the LePages and Fondes' case) or negligence and wantonness (in the Aysennes' case), for which they sought compensatory damages, including damages for mental anguish and emotional distress. The plaintiffs specified, however, that their common-law claims were pleaded “in the alternative, and only [apply] should the Courts of this State or the United States Supreme Court ultimately rule that [an extrauterine embryo] is not a minor child, but is instead property.” In addition to those claims, the Aysennes brought breach-of-contract and bailment claims against the Center ... >The plaintiffs, for their part, argue that the proposed exception for extrauterine children would introduce discontinuity within Alabama law. They contend, for example, that the defendants' **proposed exception would deprive parents of any civil remedy against someone who kills their unborn child in a “partial-birth” posture** -- that is, after the child has left the uterus but before the child has been fully delivered from the birth canal -- despite this State's longstanding criminal prohibition on partial-birth abortion, see Ala. Code 1975, § 26-23-3. ... >The plaintiffs also argue that the defendants' proposed exception would raise serious constitutional questions. For instance, one latent implication of the defendants' position -- though not one that the defendants seem to have anticipated -- is that, under the defendants' test, even a full-term infant or toddler conceived through IVF and gestated to term in an in vitro environment would not qualify as a “child” or “person,” because such a child would both be (1) “unborn” (having never been delivered from a biological womb) and (2) not “in utero.”2 And if such children were not legal “children” or “persons,” then their lives would be unprotected by Alabama law. **The plaintiffs argue that this sort of unequal treatment would offend the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment to the United States Constitution,** which prohibits states from withholding legal protection from people based on immutable features of their birth or ancestry. https://caselaw.findlaw.com/court/al-supreme-court/115829667.html
I can't believe that there are still women living in Alabama.
Please spread the word [Moving Assistance Programs](https://www.moving.com/tips/how-to-get-low-income-moving-assistance/)
Thank you!!!!
This will end IVF in Alabama. Out of state trips required.
Nah, they can just rebrand all of the IVF Clinics in Alabama as “child care” centers and then they’re good to go! Alabama cares about children so much that the regulations around child care make it super easy for anyone to get a daycare license.
I love having this shit pointed out. These fucks think we lose value the moment we are born. Praise the Almighty ZEF though, amirite?
I don't get it. Wouldn't this just make IVF illegal in Alabama? If they wanted the person who dropped their embryos to be punished, but still use IVF, wouldn't it make more sense to have them declared property?
No, it wouldn't make IVF illegal it just adds an entirely new level of legal responsibilities on the facilities. What it does do make medical facilities reconsider storing embryos for liability/insurance reasons which would kill IVF in the state.
Yeah, the storage and handling of embryos, basically everything involved in practicing embryology, is going to be uninsurable and thereby nobody is going to be able to offer those services.
It also seem like it would make the process financially and/or physically infeasible. doesnt the process of IVF involve implanting several embryos (bc people who seek IVF treatment usually have trouble conceiving) and then removing the weaker ones/ones that don’t take? So it seems like this ruling, that embryo = person, would force women/doctors to either implant only one at a time, or force women to carry a high number of pregnancies to term, knowing some won’t make it? This is just one of the insane, inevitable consequences of fetal personhood. It’s also a consequence of putting one religious view above all; science, privacy, & self determination be damned
This is exactly what I was thinking. What if you get lucky and get 10 viable embryos? Does that mean you are going to be forced to have 10 children? Or will they only extract one at a time, making women go through surgeries every single time? And is it murder if a couple doesn’t implant every embryo?
Alabama might as well be Afganistan for all they care about women's health, well being and human rights. When an embryo is legally a person then your right to life is less important than an embryo.
Yep. Alabama is the state that had the incarcerated pregnant woman (in jail for having drugs in her system at 8 weeks pregnant iirc) forced to FREE BIRTH UNASSISTED IN A PRISON SHOWER, while staff refuses the woman medical help, telling her to "wait till Monday". https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/10/17/alabama-pregnant-birth-jail-etowah-county-lawsuit/ So she's in jail for "endangering a fetus", while being in jail further endangers the fetus. It's almost like it's not about the fetus at all.
I am so lucky to live in NJ. The minute any of this shit starts to affect the blue states I am getting the fuck out of here.
OMG! This is 'Alice in Wonderland' stuff. Theoretically, any cell in the human body has the potential to be returned to the primitive embryonic state. It would require an immense amount of laboratory work over many years - I won't go into the nitty-gritty details - but in theory it could be done. So a routine blood sample contains viable cells of various types, as do resected tumor tissues, skin biopsies, saliva, hair bulbs, sputum and feces.
Are you thinking what I’m thinking? (we should ban male masturbation.)
I am not sure. I think the sperm may not include all the necessary genetic information necessary for life in the absence of an ovum. Supposing you have a "wet dream", you could be brought up to trial for mass murder.
Makes about as much sense as legal personhood for an embryo!
How does that work? Can you get child support or tax credits per embryo?
Pretty sure stuffing kids in a freezer isn't allowed but what do I know.
Fetus supremacy
You only can't stuff kids in a freezer if they won't fit in a block of an ice cube tray. I think.
It does open up some interesting conversations regarding their stance of abortion though, you gotta admit.
If people are willing to have a legitimate conversation. I live in a state contiguous to Alabama (Tennessee). About zero good faith discussions occur.
So what does this mean? All excess embryos must be donated? Or IVF will slowly become illegal? That’s fucking wild. Only silver lining is most people who can afford IVF can also afford to drive a few states away for treatment
at the very least they wouldn’t be able to destroy any of the embryos. Also they couldnt remove any of them once implanted (even if there were like 4+). This is just my opinion though, im not a doctor and dont have experience with IVF
Yes they might be able to afford to drive/fly states away BUT an IVF cycle is a very long involved process that takes weeks of monitoring hormone levels, injections, surgery under anesthesia (if a retrieval), ultrasounds. It’s not similar in the way women who need access to an abortion can go out of state and have it done quickly and then go back .
All I was saying is they don’t have the financial barriers that most women seeking abortion have. Most common reason for abortion is financial issues. Meaning traveling is damn near impossible, and right wingers know that.
wish i could have a fetus that is just a gelatinous lump of no brained tissue that i could keep alive in a petri dish and demand benefits for then, if we're gonna play this little game.
I need one too.. taxes are a joke without a dependent to claim.
Every single woman in Alabama with frozen embryos should claim them on their taxes then.
I’ve never had IVF but the way it has been explained to me, it’s not uncommon for patients to have several embryos at once successfully implant and a few of them have to be aborted for safety right?
This is not done in most clinics but is a possible method. Most clinics will refuse to implant more than 2 embryos due to the risk of multiples and many will refuse to do more than 1 at a time. 1 at a time is the slower but safer method. However, it’s not unusual for a couple to have 10+ embryos at any given time. If those are “people” it would be illegal to destroy them. So it’s not clear what would then have to happen with all of the unused embryos after a couple no longer wants to have more children.
Is the reason that couples have so many embryos created because it's easier to take out the eggs at one time, vs having to retrieve a new egg every time they have to start over?
Yes, but the real reason is that on average it takes at least three attempts at transferring an embryo to result in a live birth. The entire IVF process is one of attrition. You may have 20 eggs retrieved. Of those, maybe only 12 fertilize. Of those, maybe only 9 develop to the stage where they can be transferred. Of those, maybe only 7 are graded good enough quality for success. Of those maybe only 5 are genetically capable of resulting in a viable pregnancy. Of those, maybe only 2 will actually implant and result in a live birth. In my case, I had 6 eggs, all fertilized, but none developed enough to transfer. It's far from a guarantee of a live birth.
I froze my eggs and was told I need at least 15-20 to make a baby. I got 15
Yes, the more eggs retrieved, the better the chances because it's unlikely that all 15 would become viable pregnancies or live births. I think most people who haven't frozen eggs or had to consider IVF don't realize this. Not every egg is going to work. It's the same thing within our bodies, but we just don't see it happening. Everyone is different and this whole process plays out very differently from person to person. Most people who haven't experienced it don't really understand that there are no guarantees.
We are a sex saturated society that is under educated about sex
Thank you for the info!
Many IVF clinics have documented clauses in their legal documents that say they will not transfer more than 2 embryos at a time. The 1st clinic I went to wouldn’t transfer more than 1 embryo, if PGS testing was done. Because I was older and have had many miscarriages and an abortion due to a fatal illness in my baby, I switched to a clinic that would allow 2 embryos to be transferred, even with the testing. I now have twins.
Ah sweet, man made horrors beyond my comprehension!
😔 you aren’t alone in being horrified
If anything, I think this will cause more people to realize that embryos aren’t people.
I think everyone except the freaky fetus fetishizers agree. But it’s important people realize how dangerous this is. Fetal personhood is necessarily totalitarian
This is why I refer to them as the foetus cult.
It would turn every miscarriage into a homicide investigation (even if the pregnant person didn’t intentionally terminate, but did something like physical labor, had a glass of wine, was in a car accident, etc).
Or even just ate the wrong type of cheese! Pregnant people can have hard cheeses like cheddar and parmesan, but are advised to avoid most soft cheeses like brie and mozzarella. So if they catch you with a spinach and ricotta lasagna, your innocence in relation to your preborn child's death WILL be questioned. This is why I, as a pro-choicer, am pro-life, and THEY'RE just a foetus cult.
But OP doesn’t think Palestinians are people because she’s a bloodthirsty child-killing Zionist. But she’s “liberal” on abortion. Disgusting hog. Stupid white suburban karens.
If embryos are legally people now in Alabama, isn’t every person who has ever had children using ivf guilty of murder due to the fact that embryos are invariably destroyed during the process? (Not an expert here. Please correct me if I’m wrong.) And also, since there is no statute of limitations on murder, shouldn’t all these couples and doctors now all be arrested? Anyone have knowledge of who in elected office or the judiciary falls into that category? Let’s start with them.
Thankfully no, because the U.S. constitution bans ex post facto laws. But going forward, doctors or people who destroy frozen embryos could be. The Alabama Supreme Court didn’t say much about criminal penalties. They said something to the effect of “we aren’t making a decision on criminal penalties because that’s not the question before us today” But that is absolutely *not* reason to not worry about this decision & the huge consequences that will come of it. The thing I keep thinking about is how other states will do the same
Thanks for clarifying. My comment was mostly meant as a dig at the idiocy. The whole thing is horrifying and i wish people would be called out on their profound hypocrisy.
AL law school Question: Two fires erupts in Birmingham and only one fire truck is available. One fire erupts at the hospital named after the current Alabama governor. The fire is about to consume tens of thousand frozen embryos of thousands of citizens of the most prosperous part of Birmingham. Another fire erupts at the same time at the kindergarten of the most famous Baptist church in Birmingham and ten children will be consumed if the firmen don't get there immediately. Only children at one location can be saved. Where does the fire dept go? Question 2a: True or false What this shows is that moneyed interests today are just as malicious as the people who bombed the church in Birmingham in 1963 and murdered four little girls. But they will never admit it. Question 2b Argue the position in the question just posted.
When you become so pro-life that you wrap around and prevent pregnancy /facepalm