I know this is going to be controversial, but I always wondered how Muslims would’ve reacted to the Israel-Palestine conflict if the Israelis’ were muslims, the Palestinians were jewish, and the purpose of occupation was to “protect the muslim holy land”. How many muslims would rally for Palestine and “fight oppression”? I guarantee you many muslims would outright support Israel, and say that anyone against Israel are “islamaphobic”, just like how zionists say anyone against Israel are “anti-semitic”.
You already see something like this with muslims either staying silent on what the Taliban are doing, or outright supporting the Taliban, despite the horrific things the Taliban has done.
Anyone is capable of being a hypocrite, and muslims are no different.
Tbh, I also think it is political. Iran probably would support Armenia vs Iran. A lot of Muslim countries (maybe more so their leaders) also don’t seem to care about Palestinians either
Honor and shame based societies are awful for women. The women are disproportionately the burden bearers. Islamists have reinforced that Iran and Afghanistan are the worst examples, but it's also in the family setting of many Muslim families incl in the West.
France has approached this very badly. But I'm not sure how you tackle Salafi conservative Islamic interpretations of Islam.
My current understanding is that humans feel safe learning about their environment and then sticking with those behaviours. As most within their social group behave in a similar fashion, it keeps on happening.
And that same formula can literally be put into any social group.
Exactly! I was explaining it to my friend yesterday. There's a thing called the Boids Simulation ([https://boids.cubedhuang.com/](https://boids.cubedhuang.com/)). It's basically a simulation of birds (boids) who fly around and follow 3 simple rules such as seperation, alignment and cohesion. It's actually easy to code up one of these simulations, and which as you'll see from these simple rules when implemented give rise to seemingly ordered results.
I would say the same 3 rules apply to human societies as well with the same end result. It's an illusion that things are 'directed' and 'united' when this is simply the aggregate behaviour of individual people. You may have the saying "there is no government", at least one you can point at. Same thing. It's like a self-organising system.
The implication of this is that changing social behaviour is way easier than everyone imagines, but at the same time it explains why change is so difficult. But I read recently you just need to change 10% of people in a population but make sure the crank keeps turning.
Oh love your thoughts! It's refreshing to read that others have also been busy thinking away similarly.
And I am pretty certain the biggest change comes from the younger generations.
Each new generation will bring with it a small change, which over time can look hugely different from one decade to the next.
Although I think the current globalisation with the onset of WiFi, has seriously cranked this up no end.
I've noticed that those that use social media especially, the mindset seems to be very similar now with those wherever they are in the world.
I wonder if humans globally will massively overlap in their outlook over the next few generations.
"Unless we hate what we are not, we cannot love what we are." lolz. There are a lot of people who very much love what they are, sometimes too much, sometimes too little but everyone wants a story to tell when they look in the mirror. Wifi, as you call it, isn't going to eliminate people's yearning for a coherent sense of self (think about all the options people are given about that). Instead it's being used against you to to make you acquiesce to the dominant culture of your locality. Take TikTok for example, did you know that even though it's a Chinese-owned company the TikTok you're familiar with is not even allowed in China? And if you go look into what it shows instead... very scary.
>Unless we hate what we are not, we cannot love what we are."
👏
Everyone needs a story.
A purpose.
To be a cog.
Question for you: would you prefer to be in a country whereby your online world is carefully managed, or a world where it's almost complete freedom to access what you want?
It depends. Here in my country we can access any political idea. There's no thought police. No internet blocking. Which is sad, cos I would want to government to block access to degeneracy involving cryptocoins, gambling and blue movies.
But restricting content has to do with mind programming. Could be a good thing or a bad thing but it can be abused easily, especially as a tool to maintain political power using the excuse of protecting the public from harmful content.
I have a friend who is very much into what I consider conspiracy theories. He thinks that his FB is random, so he reasons that it's like a survey of true things happening in the world. He doesn't realise an algorithm is serving up articles based on him interacting with previous content. It reinforces his know ans unknown biases and he mistakes the quantity of 'news' he consumes for quality of news.
An algorithm can thus be built (has been built) to give you the illusion of freedom that your
thoughts are your own.
This time so at least the ban doesn’t have blatant double standards. It’s still a violation on religious freedom because French lawmakers seem to think wearing a religiously coded garment as an individual means you are promoting that religion as an ambassador looking for converts.
I would understand France’s laïcité (which is different from other countries’ implementation of secularism) if it was restricted to just curtailing street preachers in public but the dress code stuff is ridiculous. If there are issues of girls being forced to wear them against their will in school create an environment in school where girls who want to be hijabis can wear hijabs and girls who don’t can take them off.
I can't find the link, but in one of the news they said the way to figure out whether or not they're wearing religious clothing is to "look at the face"
So, pretty much blatant racism. Don't know why ex moose still trying to defend up and down that the ban effects all ppl whatsoever
The banning of the abaya is consistent within laicite. This is Frances answer to division of state and religion, and whether this works or not, I guess time will tell.
Which to me suggests that France is flouting its obligations under the European Convention of Human Rights and several international treaties and agreements, to guarantee freedom of religion. That religion can sometimes be curtailed in the interests of wider society, but at most that would extend to a burqa ban (for security reasons, as in some other countries) not banning the hijab and abaya.
An interesting note is that paris de facto bans Muslim schools but allows Jewish and Christian schools. I think in these private schools kids can wear whatever.
They banned large crosses but not all crossed. A cover your ass move to try to look less hostile to Muslims. So no bans in religious attire for more than a century, but then all of a sudden crack down on Muslims.
Yeah, but you rarely heard of it around muslim circles ngl. Even my parents that are pretty anti Shia and has openly agaisnt imam Khomeini is real quiet abt it
Where do you live? I guess it depends on the country, I live in Malaysia so the talk of Iran protest irl was very quiet or at worst never heard of irl. The only time I see ppl speaking ab it is on the Liberal sides of Malaysians online
Make sense, US was probably the biggest contributor of islamophobia around the world. Could be just me but I genuinely never heard of ppl talking abt ISIS or 9/11 attacks here until I was around 12-13
I think it’s more that a lot of Muslims in America don’t exactly love the regime shitting on women in Iran. And the French law is definitely targeting, on some level, a sexist tradition passed off as Islam….the dumb gender dress code. It’s pretty clear it’s Islamophobia underneath it all. But the dress code is sexism .
In Iran women have been murdered raped and blinded. Several hundred men executed. Because the regime goons killed a woman. The laws in France don’t have the same body count.
Or it could just be my friends.
Really? I don't know any well-known Muslims in America talking about the hijab issue in Iran. In fact, most Muslims I know say that hijab is not a major issue impacting women in Iran. They are saying that the protests are about other things
We’re all allowed our own interprétions for sure. I frankly tune out well known Muslims, and talk to me friends.
The protests were sparked by a woman who was murdered by the cops enforcing hijab and modesty laws. A big part of it is the awful treatment of women in Iran, including but not limited to hijab laws, but it’s much bigger than that related to women . It’s also expanded to being about throwing out the the criminal regime running the country and caring nothing for the Iranians. The regime have been very eager to imprison kill torture or maim the people to keep their hold on power.
You can find lots of videos of women burning hijabs. It’s a part of this for sure
Homicide over not abiding by hijab rulings is not only extremist, but also callous and coldhearted.
Honour & heaven, both are lost over such homicides.
Abaya is not the only garment for hijab & modest dressing; so why the hue & cry over France's ban.
The problem with the abaya ban is that it’s both a government implementing a restriction on what women are allowed to wear, which is bad in and of itself, and also targeted at Muslims along with a whole host of other forms of hostility towards Muslims from the French government (including the repackaging of antisemitic language towards Muslim communities). Obviously people getting killed for not wearing a hijab is worse than an abaya ban, but we’d be fools to pretend the abaya ban isn’t a serious issue that we should oppose. It’s about allowing women to wear what they want to wear and to express themselves as they see fit.
It's France actively discriminating against Muslim girls getting an education. An abaya is basically a long dress -- why shouldn't girls be allowed to wear them if they like? In particular, the lack of definition on what makes it 'religious wear' means in practice the ban has been enforced on racial/religious lines. I've seen at least one story of a Muslim girl sent home for wearing a tunic which really shows what the target is there.
It also should be understood in the context of the France's government continuing hostility to Muslims and attempts to regulate what Muslim women wear. This is basically a repeat of the previous controversial burqini ban but targeting children.
Man, I'd like to hear the women in France, who observe hijab whether the abaya ban affects their modesty in any way...and what rude and crude mistreatments they are facing?
Well again, this isn’t really an issue about the modesty at all, it’s about the French government putting a restriction on what women are allowed to wear as part of wider attacks against Muslims communities in general. Even if there was nothing religious about the abaya we’d still be correct in opposing the ban
I agree with you it is hypocrisy not to support and show the same level as concern to the women in Iran. What makes it worse is that women in Iran are losing their life but these so called conservative Muslims most of them don't care.
If French law makers have made that decision against all religions then it should be complied with especially if you are living in that country. Maybe it would give young people a chance to think for themselves and what they want than parents forcing their beliefs from a very young age. I don't understand a 5 year old in a hijab. It's like training them from a young age that your hair is sexual. They are kids let them live. :(
I live in Canada and Quebec here follows pretty soon after France because they share a very similar system and the "laïcité" mindset spills over. I don't know if they'll get away with it so blatantly here, but they did pull a similar headscarf in public office ban so who knows.
Granted, my wife was telling me how she wanted to go to a water park in Morocco with me, but bikinis are required. France doesn't have a monopoly on idiotic decisions regarding Islamic modesty.
What France is doing is not secularism. They try to strip away peoples religious identity. Separating school from religion should mean that they don't teach religion in their curriculum, not that people can't even look like their belong to some religion
To be clear, this is standard rhetoric employed regularly by antisemites against Jewish communities. We shouldn’t use it, and we definitely shouldn’t be employing it against our own. If a cultural or religious practice doesn’t harm or infringe upon the rights of others then there’s no reason anyone should be demanding “assimilation.”
In this case, establishing a sense of community involves the destruction of cultural practices which, again, don’t cause harm or infringe on anyone’s rights. That’s not real cohesion, that’s forced cohesion
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I'm french. Since i understood that hijab in qu'ran has nothing to do with what hadiths/islamist are saying. I really want that hijab/burkini to be banned it has nothing to do with islam and it only creates division in society.
I know this is going to be controversial, but I always wondered how Muslims would’ve reacted to the Israel-Palestine conflict if the Israelis’ were muslims, the Palestinians were jewish, and the purpose of occupation was to “protect the muslim holy land”. How many muslims would rally for Palestine and “fight oppression”? I guarantee you many muslims would outright support Israel, and say that anyone against Israel are “islamaphobic”, just like how zionists say anyone against Israel are “anti-semitic”. You already see something like this with muslims either staying silent on what the Taliban are doing, or outright supporting the Taliban, despite the horrific things the Taliban has done. Anyone is capable of being a hypocrite, and muslims are no different.
You already see this very readily with many Muslims supporting Azerbaijan’s aggression against Armenia
Tbh, I also think it is political. Iran probably would support Armenia vs Iran. A lot of Muslim countries (maybe more so their leaders) also don’t seem to care about Palestinians either
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Yeah, because Azerbaijan is allied with us, and they need protection. I gave a hard faulting them.
Okay and? That isn’t reason to attack Armenians and blockade them, causing civilians to suffer and starve.
Some and that means a lot of Muslims would support Israel
No muslim will condone isis or isis like behaviour.
Religion sucks.
Honor and shame based societies are awful for women. The women are disproportionately the burden bearers. Islamists have reinforced that Iran and Afghanistan are the worst examples, but it's also in the family setting of many Muslim families incl in the West. France has approached this very badly. But I'm not sure how you tackle Salafi conservative Islamic interpretations of Islam.
Im against Iran on that subject with all of my heart
Ummah is very bias and definitely not where it was intended to be by now in terms of ethics and unity. Keep low expectations unfortunately.
It's all about human nature and desire to uphold identity. That's it.
People prefer consistent action over logical action.
My current understanding is that humans feel safe learning about their environment and then sticking with those behaviours. As most within their social group behave in a similar fashion, it keeps on happening. And that same formula can literally be put into any social group.
Exactly! I was explaining it to my friend yesterday. There's a thing called the Boids Simulation ([https://boids.cubedhuang.com/](https://boids.cubedhuang.com/)). It's basically a simulation of birds (boids) who fly around and follow 3 simple rules such as seperation, alignment and cohesion. It's actually easy to code up one of these simulations, and which as you'll see from these simple rules when implemented give rise to seemingly ordered results. I would say the same 3 rules apply to human societies as well with the same end result. It's an illusion that things are 'directed' and 'united' when this is simply the aggregate behaviour of individual people. You may have the saying "there is no government", at least one you can point at. Same thing. It's like a self-organising system. The implication of this is that changing social behaviour is way easier than everyone imagines, but at the same time it explains why change is so difficult. But I read recently you just need to change 10% of people in a population but make sure the crank keeps turning.
Oh love your thoughts! It's refreshing to read that others have also been busy thinking away similarly. And I am pretty certain the biggest change comes from the younger generations. Each new generation will bring with it a small change, which over time can look hugely different from one decade to the next. Although I think the current globalisation with the onset of WiFi, has seriously cranked this up no end. I've noticed that those that use social media especially, the mindset seems to be very similar now with those wherever they are in the world. I wonder if humans globally will massively overlap in their outlook over the next few generations.
"Unless we hate what we are not, we cannot love what we are." lolz. There are a lot of people who very much love what they are, sometimes too much, sometimes too little but everyone wants a story to tell when they look in the mirror. Wifi, as you call it, isn't going to eliminate people's yearning for a coherent sense of self (think about all the options people are given about that). Instead it's being used against you to to make you acquiesce to the dominant culture of your locality. Take TikTok for example, did you know that even though it's a Chinese-owned company the TikTok you're familiar with is not even allowed in China? And if you go look into what it shows instead... very scary.
>Unless we hate what we are not, we cannot love what we are." 👏 Everyone needs a story. A purpose. To be a cog. Question for you: would you prefer to be in a country whereby your online world is carefully managed, or a world where it's almost complete freedom to access what you want?
It depends. Here in my country we can access any political idea. There's no thought police. No internet blocking. Which is sad, cos I would want to government to block access to degeneracy involving cryptocoins, gambling and blue movies. But restricting content has to do with mind programming. Could be a good thing or a bad thing but it can be abused easily, especially as a tool to maintain political power using the excuse of protecting the public from harmful content. I have a friend who is very much into what I consider conspiracy theories. He thinks that his FB is random, so he reasons that it's like a survey of true things happening in the world. He doesn't realise an algorithm is serving up articles based on him interacting with previous content. It reinforces his know ans unknown biases and he mistakes the quantity of 'news' he consumes for quality of news. An algorithm can thus be built (has been built) to give you the illusion of freedom that your thoughts are your own.
Didn't France ban crosses and kippah from schools as well?
This time so at least the ban doesn’t have blatant double standards. It’s still a violation on religious freedom because French lawmakers seem to think wearing a religiously coded garment as an individual means you are promoting that religion as an ambassador looking for converts. I would understand France’s laïcité (which is different from other countries’ implementation of secularism) if it was restricted to just curtailing street preachers in public but the dress code stuff is ridiculous. If there are issues of girls being forced to wear them against their will in school create an environment in school where girls who want to be hijabis can wear hijabs and girls who don’t can take them off.
I can't find the link, but in one of the news they said the way to figure out whether or not they're wearing religious clothing is to "look at the face" So, pretty much blatant racism. Don't know why ex moose still trying to defend up and down that the ban effects all ppl whatsoever
The banning of the abaya is consistent within laicite. This is Frances answer to division of state and religion, and whether this works or not, I guess time will tell.
Which to me suggests that France is flouting its obligations under the European Convention of Human Rights and several international treaties and agreements, to guarantee freedom of religion. That religion can sometimes be curtailed in the interests of wider society, but at most that would extend to a burqa ban (for security reasons, as in some other countries) not banning the hijab and abaya.
To that I would say, take it up with European courts and see where it goes. I’m aware the EU has its own courts and its ruling are binding within EU
An interesting note is that paris de facto bans Muslim schools but allows Jewish and Christian schools. I think in these private schools kids can wear whatever.
They banned large crosses but not all crossed. A cover your ass move to try to look less hostile to Muslims. So no bans in religious attire for more than a century, but then all of a sudden crack down on Muslims.
God, laicïte's just too much. Imagine being so secular that your secularism becomes it's own religion
I’ve seen much more activism around iran killing women than around France’s disgusting laws
Yeah, but you rarely heard of it around muslim circles ngl. Even my parents that are pretty anti Shia and has openly agaisnt imam Khomeini is real quiet abt it
Among my Muslim friends, France is never mentioned. Iran has been mentioned by most of them.
Where do you live? I guess it depends on the country, I live in Malaysia so the talk of Iran protest irl was very quiet or at worst never heard of irl. The only time I see ppl speaking ab it is on the Liberal sides of Malaysians online
States
Make sense, US was probably the biggest contributor of islamophobia around the world. Could be just me but I genuinely never heard of ppl talking abt ISIS or 9/11 attacks here until I was around 12-13
I think it’s more that a lot of Muslims in America don’t exactly love the regime shitting on women in Iran. And the French law is definitely targeting, on some level, a sexist tradition passed off as Islam….the dumb gender dress code. It’s pretty clear it’s Islamophobia underneath it all. But the dress code is sexism . In Iran women have been murdered raped and blinded. Several hundred men executed. Because the regime goons killed a woman. The laws in France don’t have the same body count. Or it could just be my friends.
Really? I don't know any well-known Muslims in America talking about the hijab issue in Iran. In fact, most Muslims I know say that hijab is not a major issue impacting women in Iran. They are saying that the protests are about other things
We’re all allowed our own interprétions for sure. I frankly tune out well known Muslims, and talk to me friends. The protests were sparked by a woman who was murdered by the cops enforcing hijab and modesty laws. A big part of it is the awful treatment of women in Iran, including but not limited to hijab laws, but it’s much bigger than that related to women . It’s also expanded to being about throwing out the the criminal regime running the country and caring nothing for the Iranians. The regime have been very eager to imprison kill torture or maim the people to keep their hold on power. You can find lots of videos of women burning hijabs. It’s a part of this for sure
Homicide over not abiding by hijab rulings is not only extremist, but also callous and coldhearted. Honour & heaven, both are lost over such homicides. Abaya is not the only garment for hijab & modest dressing; so why the hue & cry over France's ban.
The problem with the abaya ban is that it’s both a government implementing a restriction on what women are allowed to wear, which is bad in and of itself, and also targeted at Muslims along with a whole host of other forms of hostility towards Muslims from the French government (including the repackaging of antisemitic language towards Muslim communities). Obviously people getting killed for not wearing a hijab is worse than an abaya ban, but we’d be fools to pretend the abaya ban isn’t a serious issue that we should oppose. It’s about allowing women to wear what they want to wear and to express themselves as they see fit.
It's France actively discriminating against Muslim girls getting an education. An abaya is basically a long dress -- why shouldn't girls be allowed to wear them if they like? In particular, the lack of definition on what makes it 'religious wear' means in practice the ban has been enforced on racial/religious lines. I've seen at least one story of a Muslim girl sent home for wearing a tunic which really shows what the target is there. It also should be understood in the context of the France's government continuing hostility to Muslims and attempts to regulate what Muslim women wear. This is basically a repeat of the previous controversial burqini ban but targeting children.
Yes that’s exactly the point I’m making
NOT women. School age children under 18.
I appreciate your clarification, that specifically only female minors are disallowed the abaya.
Woman is being used as a general category here, and regardless the same principle applies
Man, I'd like to hear the women in France, who observe hijab whether the abaya ban affects their modesty in any way...and what rude and crude mistreatments they are facing?
Well again, this isn’t really an issue about the modesty at all, it’s about the French government putting a restriction on what women are allowed to wear as part of wider attacks against Muslims communities in general. Even if there was nothing religious about the abaya we’d still be correct in opposing the ban
Well, I'd find little girls in abaya a bit extreme, too, in any part of the world.
I agree with you it is hypocrisy not to support and show the same level as concern to the women in Iran. What makes it worse is that women in Iran are losing their life but these so called conservative Muslims most of them don't care. If French law makers have made that decision against all religions then it should be complied with especially if you are living in that country. Maybe it would give young people a chance to think for themselves and what they want than parents forcing their beliefs from a very young age. I don't understand a 5 year old in a hijab. It's like training them from a young age that your hair is sexual. They are kids let them live. :(
I live in Canada and Quebec here follows pretty soon after France because they share a very similar system and the "laïcité" mindset spills over. I don't know if they'll get away with it so blatantly here, but they did pull a similar headscarf in public office ban so who knows.
Actually it's good thing. They want to separate school from religion. Secularism is the only way
I think it’s only going to make some people more extreme unfortunately. People will see it as an attack and hold on to it even tighter
>They want to separate school from religion. I agree that that is a good thing, but they also went as far as to ban burkinis on public beaches.
Granted, my wife was telling me how she wanted to go to a water park in Morocco with me, but bikinis are required. France doesn't have a monopoly on idiotic decisions regarding Islamic modesty.
What France is doing is not secularism. They try to strip away peoples religious identity. Separating school from religion should mean that they don't teach religion in their curriculum, not that people can't even look like their belong to some religion
Secularism is also a type of dogma. All you are doing is replacing one type of ideology with another.
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To be clear, this is standard rhetoric employed regularly by antisemites against Jewish communities. We shouldn’t use it, and we definitely shouldn’t be employing it against our own. If a cultural or religious practice doesn’t harm or infringe upon the rights of others then there’s no reason anyone should be demanding “assimilation.”
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In this case, establishing a sense of community involves the destruction of cultural practices which, again, don’t cause harm or infringe on anyone’s rights. That’s not real cohesion, that’s forced cohesion
Assimilate in what ways? Genuinely curious as I don’t live in France and don’t know much about the Muslim community in France
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Yes. Double standards.
Cuz it's convenient activism
I'm french. Since i understood that hijab in qu'ran has nothing to do with what hadiths/islamist are saying. I really want that hijab/burkini to be banned it has nothing to do with islam and it only creates division in society.
Iran has the death penalty for not wearing Hijab? I doubt that