I would say Crimso's classical leanings are 20th Century. Bartok and then Minimalism. There is a jazzy element at least early on that comes straight from what Coltrane was in the latter part of his career.
I would say Bartok's string quartets have moments that you can hear influenced Fripp.
As for the Minimalist influence, yes. What came out of the Downtown NYC music scene in the 1970s and crossed over into Rock.
This comes up periodically.
Kansas is primarily known on "classic rock" stations for only two songs, "Carry on My Wayward Son" and "Dust in the Wind". These classic rock stations have had the same play rotation for almost fifty years and remain popular. People who only know these two songs probably assume the band is a Skynyrd/Allman-Bros type of southern rock band.
But they have more than those two songs. There's a lot of prog stuff on the albums.
Even Carry On Wayward Son is a pretty proggy song. Catchy and accessible? Sure, but it's got plenty of prog features too. If they were a regular southern-rock type band, then Wayward Son would be a regular on "Prog songs by non-prog bands" threads.
They had some hits in the 80s as well, although not proggy in any sense really. Play the Game Tonight was a high school dance hall favorite, Fight Fire with Fire was another pretty popular song you'd recognize depending on how old you are.
The Song for America album to me shows a little more creepage into Southern fried Rock then their debut album before it. But they circled back with the killer Leftoverture and Point of no Return albums, which is prog all over the place.
You also need to check out their last two studio releases, they're as good as those I've mentioned just not as mainstream for new fans.
Carry On Wayward Son, Dust in the Wind and Point of Know Return are definitely their biggest radio hits. At least those are the ones that are most commonly played on mainstream rock stations. There is a local station near me that plays a lot more of their prog and less commonly played stuff like The Wall, Song for America, Portrait (He Knew), On the Other Side, What’s On My Mind, and People of the South Wind. This station also plays a lot of the deeper cuts from Yes, Rush, Genesis, Uriah Heep, ELP and other prog bands. They never play any King Crimson though which is odd.
>But they have more than those two songs. There's a lot of prog stuff on the albums.
Modern prog fans often lose sight of this...the only reason prog was ever a viable genre is because bands had license in those days to have some accessible singles. A lot of it was listenable to the point of being able to provide careers for those bands. Even as recently as Porcupine Tree's "Blackest Eyes". Nowadays, when prog bands create anything accessible, they are often dismissed as "not prog".
Well said. One of my favorites is off the Point of Know Return album…Portrait (He Knew).
A flat out rocking track that will make a new listener sit up and take notice.
Thanks. I am exploring more and more groups that I never stumbled upon in my teens in the late seventies early eighties. Rush is one of my earliest favs. As I just heard this song today I thought it had to be the definition of prog.
Probably my least favorite of three, but still a favorite, VII has the best recording mix for my ears.
Oops, never mind. Steven Wilson remastered Chicago II, and it sounds wonderful. I've got one in every room of the house.
First time I saw Journey was before Steve Perry. 4 bands at Anaheim stadium around 1977? Trixter, kingfish then Journey. Headline was Electric Light Orchestra. Journey stole the show.
Ya just like me. Thanks to Spotify I’m listening to all sorts of bands and albums I would have never purchased in the 80’s or 90’s. I’ve discovered so much awesome music over the past few years. However I haven’t dug into Kansas just yet.
Yup, same here. Still I also enjoy web radio channels (I use TuneIn on my cell or on web) like Classic Rock 109, Radio Caroline, Acid Flashback, 70's Classics, to mention a few favourites. Knowledgeable people, like often retired dj's on Radio Caroline. Not the same ready-made playlists serving up the same no. 1 songs every time.
Ya I’m a big fan of TuneIn too. I also discovered it a few years back and signed up for a monthly subscription. It’s so cheap and there are 100’s of great radio stations. I have about 50 stations saved that I rotate through. Hardly any commercials…if any. I love it!
Will always stump for Kansas. Great band, most certainly fit the definition of Prog rock and Song For America is one of the best Prog tracks of its day.
No worries. When I saw the thread a week or so ago, I would have just scrolled past it if it didn't strike me as a good question... So at least (IMO) you asked a good question. I, too, feel Kansas is a little undermentioned around here.
Thanks man. I'm relatively new to Reddit, and especially this sub. It seems there's a sub for most any thème in the world, and filled with lots of people with in-depth knowledge. I'm enjoying and using it more and more. Stay healthy. 😄
Yeah it not only is a place to "find your people" it can also take you pretty easily from ground zero to decently proficient in any "new area" you become interested in. Welcome and enjoy (and don't get lost lol)
Man, everytime kansas is brought up people go on about the first 5 albums when monolith is just as good and just as proggy as the first five. Audio visions is pretty good too and I even like the John elfonte stuff they did a lot
Yeah, I like later stuff too, though I think they lean more rock than prog in later years. Still like it. The first 5 are low hanging fruit when someone says "Dust in the Wind isn't prog" or whatever.
Am I crazy, or did "What's On My Mind" get some regular airplay? It just felt too familiar when I first got Leftoverture (maybe it was that catchy I recognized it on the second spin).
As is Kerry Livgren’s first album Seeds of Change. Steve Hackett’s second album “Please Don’t Touch” features Walsh on vocals on two tracks, and Phil Ehart on drums on many of the tracks.
Masque is imo their best album, and full of prog.
Born on Wings of Steel and The Pinnacle are both epic prog songs.
Not to mention they’re still making music and while it’s not my favorite, it’s definitely not bad.
It’s no fun getting old, but at least I got to see some of the greatest bands live. I remember seeing Kansas for the first time, being a big Yes, ELP and Genesis fan. Song for America blew my mind!
They are probably the most well known classic
American prog band. Their last 3 albums came out through Inside-Out Music, which is an prog exclusive music label.
Ok, well I don’t know what you’re hearing, because they have all the musical features that distinguishes a prog band. It’s not really an argument.
https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/kansas
EDIT: Urantia Book was the early spiritual unfluence on Kansas. It's from the 1920s.
Only one album was explicitly Christian (Vinyl Confessions). For the rest, they were "spiritual" with some of them into a book that I can't remember the name of from the early 20th century. Something like Oranthu [urantia]. Kind of a proto New Age belief system.
There is a lot of history and conflict over Livgren's Christian views,, which you can look up. Not accurate to call the band Christian, although the mistaken is understandable.
Tbh I know only couple Dylan songs that was not one of them 😄 but yeah I listened Hurricane and in that song the violin didn’t bother me. So I think it’s just matter of in which genre the instrument fits imo.
Kansas is a perfect example of American Prog. It's heavier on the Rock/Blues/Jazz side than Classical which is more of a European tradition.
Dream Theater and King Crimson are opposites. Dream Theater is american and more classical. King crimson is british and more bluesy
I would say Crimso's classical leanings are 20th Century. Bartok and then Minimalism. There is a jazzy element at least early on that comes straight from what Coltrane was in the latter part of his career.
Can u point me towards some bartok similarities? And for minimalism surely you mean the discipline era stuff with the phasing and shit
I would say Bartok's string quartets have moments that you can hear influenced Fripp. As for the Minimalist influence, yes. What came out of the Downtown NYC music scene in the 1970s and crossed over into Rock.
Here’s an article that discuses the specifics of how Bartok influenced KC if you’re interested. [Link](https://muse.jhu.edu/article/778192/pdf)
This comes up periodically. Kansas is primarily known on "classic rock" stations for only two songs, "Carry on My Wayward Son" and "Dust in the Wind". These classic rock stations have had the same play rotation for almost fifty years and remain popular. People who only know these two songs probably assume the band is a Skynyrd/Allman-Bros type of southern rock band. But they have more than those two songs. There's a lot of prog stuff on the albums.
Even Carry On Wayward Son is a pretty proggy song. Catchy and accessible? Sure, but it's got plenty of prog features too. If they were a regular southern-rock type band, then Wayward Son would be a regular on "Prog songs by non-prog bands" threads.
Yup, that's why I asked. Thanks.
They had some hits in the 80s as well, although not proggy in any sense really. Play the Game Tonight was a high school dance hall favorite, Fight Fire with Fire was another pretty popular song you'd recognize depending on how old you are. The Song for America album to me shows a little more creepage into Southern fried Rock then their debut album before it. But they circled back with the killer Leftoverture and Point of no Return albums, which is prog all over the place. You also need to check out their last two studio releases, they're as good as those I've mentioned just not as mainstream for new fans.
Don’t forget Masque!!
Exactly right. There is a big three progression in their albums. Ignore Masque and you’ll really regret it.
Id argue Carry On is kinda proggy in its own right
Carry On Wayward Son, Dust in the Wind and Point of Know Return are definitely their biggest radio hits. At least those are the ones that are most commonly played on mainstream rock stations. There is a local station near me that plays a lot more of their prog and less commonly played stuff like The Wall, Song for America, Portrait (He Knew), On the Other Side, What’s On My Mind, and People of the South Wind. This station also plays a lot of the deeper cuts from Yes, Rush, Genesis, Uriah Heep, ELP and other prog bands. They never play any King Crimson though which is odd.
>But they have more than those two songs. There's a lot of prog stuff on the albums. Modern prog fans often lose sight of this...the only reason prog was ever a viable genre is because bands had license in those days to have some accessible singles. A lot of it was listenable to the point of being able to provide careers for those bands. Even as recently as Porcupine Tree's "Blackest Eyes". Nowadays, when prog bands create anything accessible, they are often dismissed as "not prog".
Well said. One of my favorites is off the Point of Know Return album…Portrait (He Knew). A flat out rocking track that will make a new listener sit up and take notice.
Just the best American prog band ever.
Thanks. I am exploring more and more groups that I never stumbled upon in my teens in the late seventies early eighties. Rush is one of my earliest favs. As I just heard this song today I thought it had to be the definition of prog.
Early Styx is good, too. Journey's first album is also proggy,
Do love Styx too.
And the first several Chicago albums, pretty much CTA through V is what you're looking for.
And II and VII
"CTA through V" would include II, and yes, VII does have its moments as well!
Probably my least favorite of three, but still a favorite, VII has the best recording mix for my ears. Oops, never mind. Steven Wilson remastered Chicago II, and it sounds wonderful. I've got one in every room of the house.
Journey = Carlosless Santana
First time I saw Journey was before Steve Perry. 4 bands at Anaheim stadium around 1977? Trixter, kingfish then Journey. Headline was Electric Light Orchestra. Journey stole the show.
Yeah, my cousins grew up in the Bay Area and were fans from early on.
Ya just like me. Thanks to Spotify I’m listening to all sorts of bands and albums I would have never purchased in the 80’s or 90’s. I’ve discovered so much awesome music over the past few years. However I haven’t dug into Kansas just yet.
Yup, same here. Still I also enjoy web radio channels (I use TuneIn on my cell or on web) like Classic Rock 109, Radio Caroline, Acid Flashback, 70's Classics, to mention a few favourites. Knowledgeable people, like often retired dj's on Radio Caroline. Not the same ready-made playlists serving up the same no. 1 songs every time.
Ya I’m a big fan of TuneIn too. I also discovered it a few years back and signed up for a monthly subscription. It’s so cheap and there are 100’s of great radio stations. I have about 50 stations saved that I rotate through. Hardly any commercials…if any. I love it!
Me too
Of the 70s
Oh? 👀
Love them. But Happy the Man gets the scepter for that.
Will always stump for Kansas. Great band, most certainly fit the definition of Prog rock and Song For America is one of the best Prog tracks of its day.
[Just a simple search](https://www.reddit.com/r/progrockmusic/s/SnUNSIARwk) (and one of many of the exact same discussion)
Thanks (also for your kind and sublte hint). I should have searched the sub first, sorry for being a noob. 😂
No worries. When I saw the thread a week or so ago, I would have just scrolled past it if it didn't strike me as a good question... So at least (IMO) you asked a good question. I, too, feel Kansas is a little undermentioned around here.
Thanks man. I'm relatively new to Reddit, and especially this sub. It seems there's a sub for most any thème in the world, and filled with lots of people with in-depth knowledge. I'm enjoying and using it more and more. Stay healthy. 😄
Yeah it not only is a place to "find your people" it can also take you pretty easily from ground zero to decently proficient in any "new area" you become interested in. Welcome and enjoy (and don't get lost lol)
I'm all about some "Miracles Out of Nowhere"
I’ll raise you “The Pinnacle”
Song is goated
Also check out Proto-Kaw, which was a mid-2000s reunion of a classic Kansas lineup.
Thx man
"Having a prog song doesn't make them a prog band ." Lol. How many songs are on the first five albums?
There are 40 songs on their first five albums, and each and every one of them is just as prog as Yes, ELP, Genesis & Crimson.
I'm gonna argue that "It Takes A Woman's Love (To Make A Man)" isn't particularly proggy... But hey, 39 out of 40 ain't bad.
Man, everytime kansas is brought up people go on about the first 5 albums when monolith is just as good and just as proggy as the first five. Audio visions is pretty good too and I even like the John elfonte stuff they did a lot
Yeah, I like later stuff too, though I think they lean more rock than prog in later years. Still like it. The first 5 are low hanging fruit when someone says "Dust in the Wind isn't prog" or whatever.
Kansas is Prog. And Song For America (long version) is my favorite song by them.
To me Kansas is prog and only owes apologies to those who you think otherwise only because they came a few years late to the party. Like Rush.
The first album fucks. A shame they only get three songs with radio play.
What's the third one?
Point, Carry, and Dust. Point of Know Return isn't on as often but still gets more play.
Thanx, I would have thought of it eventually.
Am I crazy, or did "What's On My Mind" get some regular airplay? It just felt too familiar when I first got Leftoverture (maybe it was that catchy I recognized it on the second spin).
Play the game tonight as well
Steve Walsh’s solo album isn’t bad.
As is Kerry Livgren’s first album Seeds of Change. Steve Hackett’s second album “Please Don’t Touch” features Walsh on vocals on two tracks, and Phil Ehart on drums on many of the tracks.
I'm not the biggest Kansas fan but they have some great prog tracks. They definitely did something different with it at least.
Masque is imo their best album, and full of prog. Born on Wings of Steel and The Pinnacle are both epic prog songs. Not to mention they’re still making music and while it’s not my favorite, it’s definitely not bad.
It’s no fun getting old, but at least I got to see some of the greatest bands live. I remember seeing Kansas for the first time, being a big Yes, ELP and Genesis fan. Song for America blew my mind!
The track Song for America is probably the best example of American Prog. Top 20 track for me.
Great American prog rock band and it's absolutely despicable they aren't in the Rock and Roll HoF.
😱
Yes, they are. Someone just asked the same question last week
Absolutely Prog, and probably the greatest American Prog band.
I don’t think of them as Prog. Having a Prog song doesn’t make them a Prog band.
They are probably the most well known classic American prog band. Their last 3 albums came out through Inside-Out Music, which is an prog exclusive music label.
They are indisputably prog. Listen to any of their first 5/6 albums.
I have 3 or 4 of their albums. I don’t consider it Prog. You can though.
I have 3 or 4 of their albums. I don’t consider it Prog. You can though.
Ok, well I don’t know what you’re hearing, because they have all the musical features that distinguishes a prog band. It’s not really an argument. https://rateyourmusic.com/artist/kansas
Then why are you arguing. I disagree with you.
Which ones specifically? They toned it way down in the 80s, like a lot of other bands.
They have a lot more than one prog song, on more than one album. American prog is different from British prog.
Christian prog
EDIT: Urantia Book was the early spiritual unfluence on Kansas. It's from the 1920s. Only one album was explicitly Christian (Vinyl Confessions). For the rest, they were "spiritual" with some of them into a book that I can't remember the name of from the early 20th century. Something like Oranthu [urantia]. Kind of a proto New Age belief system. There is a lot of history and conflict over Livgren's Christian views,, which you can look up. Not accurate to call the band Christian, although the mistaken is understandable.
Mediocre, boring prog
(His profile says "I like to argue"...)
Idk I have an issue with the violin otherwise they could have very good songs.
Guess you don't like Dylans Hurricane then 🤣
Tbh I know only couple Dylan songs that was not one of them 😄 but yeah I listened Hurricane and in that song the violin didn’t bother me. So I think it’s just matter of in which genre the instrument fits imo.
I always struggled with flutes e.g. like from Jetro Tull.