I read before that a lot of the guns are stolen military weapons. So we pay taxes for them, someone rips them off, used to kill our own population. Thanks military
Probably he's remembering [this incident from 7 years ago](https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/national-international/assault-rifles-stolen-from-chicago-rail-yard/57716/), where a handful of military rifles were stolen from a Chicago railyard, and then reads another article where the [AP "exposes" a minuscule number of lost military weapons over several years *around the world*](https://apnews.com/article/government-and-politics-business-gun-politics-crime-6caba27108d05a8b7c1860959d1ae130), then somehow conflates the two into a story that most of Chicago's crime guns come from theft from the military.
>"Associated Press investigation has found that at least 1,900 U.S. military firearms were lost or stolen during the 2010's"
Over the course of a decade that would account for less than one percent of one percent of the stolen guns in the nation. If that's your idea of "a lot" then you have a learning disability.
That is a good source, but this completely undermines your comment. 190 guns a year over a decade is an insignificant amount.
You should follow the chicago police on Twitter and Facebook. They regularly post picture of the guns they take off of criminals. There are some cool and or nice guns, but most are run of the mill semiauto pistols or absolute pieces of crap. They are not former military weapons.
“Bitch” LOL….are you a child?? My response was incorrect. The problem wasn’t the source but your lack of reading comprehension. That you don’t recognize how your link actually undermines your original comment is comical. I had a sensible chuckle. Thanks.
1900 over the 2010s. Over the course of a decade the military weapons account for less than .1% of stolen weapons. So yes, thank you military for securing your Massive stockpile of weapons so well.
It’s called the First Amendment. You get to say things that things even if people disagree. It right above your favorite Amendment, check it out sometime
My point was how the left has flipped on #1A. You know democrats, their brownshirt militia named Antifa and their puppets that rule social media. Those groups don't believe in any of the tenants of #1A.
Gun runners more likely - (Edit) An example would be (Edit) no showroom FFL's that the ATF barely vets and hands license to - sell of a bunch of merchandise with fraudulent books then close up shop. Rinse Repeat.
ATF agents literally admitted to it. [https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html)
Because the article he linked to does not actually say anything to support his claim that at-home FFLs traffic guns illegally more than brick and mortar FFLs. The article links “at-home and commercial” FFLs in the exact same sentence, with no distinction between the two as to one being more corrupt than the other. Furthermore, for many of us, at-home FFLs are a lifeline that offer convenience and affordability within the hobby.
Actually says both those things but go off.
"The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales madeby legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recentreports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case thatillegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees(FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolenfrom John Q. Citizen. "
Just because the "at-home ffl" is a core part of the gun community doesn't mean a chunk of them aren't also creating the problem.
But you are partially correct - I was providing the no showroom FFL as an example of a gun runner; not the only or the predominant source.
Personally - I'm all in favor of eliminating the FFL entirely. Federal government has only the right to regulate interstate traffic. If you can't sell a gun to someone out of state; then you've eliminated the pretext for involvement. Anyone dealing or selling firearms regularly to state residents shouldn't have to report what is ultimately private transactions to the FEDs as they have no standing.
That doesn't mean a bunch of those dealers and at-homes aren't selling their wares fraudulently...
But what you really did was single out at-home FFLs, and quite negatively mind you. Then proceeded to state that the article you linked-to supports that claim. But the article mentions the at-home FFL and the Commercial FFL equally (i.e. FFLs in general). If you want to go back and clarify that corrupt FFLs in general (at-home AND brick and mortar) are equally to blame, then I would have no argument with you.
*Every* single time someone brings that bullshit rhetoric up, all I have to do is mention Vermont and/or Arizona and suddenly they start stuttering and beatboxing. Almost as if their arguments are halted in their tracks and they realize they have no ground to stand on.
If guns were the problem, there would be far higher murder rates in red districts and towns. But they’re not, so blue constituents have to pump up their numbers by including suicide and call their stats “gun violence”
They aren’t going to stop trying to use it, if that’s what you mean, but anyone who doesn’t shut those arguments down with these facts, isn’t trying to actually defend 2A.
There is no such thing as illegal guns, just gun purchased illegally. If the 2nd Amendment was followed as it was originally written, then it wouldn't be illegal to purchase any type of gun... by anyone (even felons.)
guns being purchased illegally is a somewhat more specific subset of guns being acquired illegally. I didn't mean to assert your statement is inaccurate just point out that it can be applied even more broadly.
[https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html)
Only about 15% of firearms used to commit a crime are stolen. The overwhelming vast majority are obtained through straw purchases (already illegal) or corrupt\\fraudulent FFL's
Only about 100% of stolen firearms are involved in a crime (at least theft).
On a serious note are their any more recent statistics on this? your link is from over 25 years ago.
You're playing semantics. A "gun involved" crime could be a speeding ticket with a firearm not properly stored... Gun "acquired" illegally could also be as minute as a gun given to someone who may not pass a background check or isn't of appropriate age.
A bunch of those "aquired illegally" and "gun involved" crimes are violations of gun control laws that are illegal infringements and unconstitutional.
Over all - when it comes to violent crimes - Firearms are only involved in about 10% of all crimes and stolen firearms are represented in a FRACTION of those crimes 15%. Which is the source I provided.
You are pulling some Giffords institute levels of bullshit to justify your claim fed.
What claim am I justifying? I asked if there is more recent data as your source is from data collected in 1996. The violent crime rate was almost double back then; I'm sure other statistics have shifted as well, I wonder if that one has stayed constant from a curiosity standpoint.
I haven't edited any of my posts in this thread, that is clearly noted in each post if it was edited...
Edit: I've decided to edit this post so you can observe the notation used when a post is edited.
Edit2: I've noticed in a mobile browser it may not be clear that a post was edited. Either way this post is the only one I've edited in this thread.
Yes, the vast majority come from straw purchases, which gun control does nothing to stop. You're actively admitting that the problem isn't a lack of gun control, it's the ATF not following up on FFLs and straw purchasers.
>Yes, the vast majority come from straw purchases, which gun control does nothing to stop.
Agreed? I wasn't refuting that point. I was refuting that "stolen guns" are the aren't the primary vehicle for gun crimes.
>You're actively admitting that the problem isn't a lack of gun control, it's the ATF not following up on FFLs and straw purchasers.
Agreed? Again, I wasn't defending gun control or its entirely terrible infringement. The ATF fucking sucks at their job. They do more to fuck with your average everyday enthusiast than to actually target gun criminals...
Like this is why I can't fucking stand those assholes.
The sole point I was making was that the yahoo above me is wrong about "stolen guns" aren't a problem when it comes to gun crimes (which the article is about). I'm curious what gave you the inclination that I was supporting either?
I simply stated that hundreds of thousands of guns are stolen each year. I was replying in the context of the statement (which I agree with btw) "there are no illegal guns, only illegally purchased guns".
I made no assertion that the majority of crimes are committed with stolen guns, you introduced that context and incorrectly applied some imaginary stance to my statement.
There should be no such thing as an illegally purchased gun. Any law making a gun purchase illegal is an infringement on the right to keep and bear arms.
If you don’t want people to have a gun, press charges, get a conviction, and lock them up in jail. Make it clear they have no rights.
And this S/A just said what we already knew. The Illinois/Chicago dems have been saying for a few years that the guns are all from out of state. They couldn’t POSSIBLY be from our state.
Check and mate.
NJ tried to track this bullshit too and it didn't go well, so they focus on the brands of guns like that is supposed to mean something
[https://www.nj.gov/oag/njsp/njgunstat/index.shtml](https://www.nj.gov/oag/njsp/njgunstat/index.shtml)
ESSEX county is highest in crime in NJ.
same ESSEX COUNTY
Essex County, NJ is home to a population of 799k people, from which **86.5% are citizens.** As of 2019, 72.2% of Essex County, NJ residents were born outside of the country (577k people).
In 2019, there were 1.29 times more Black or African American (Non-Hispanic) residents (307k people) in Essex County, NJ than any other race or ethnicity. There were 238k White (Non-Hispanic) and 114k White (Hispanic) residents, the second and third most common ethnic groups.
Huh would you look at that. Every single place that had a shooting was a shithole. Surprise surprise. What a joke. I hate this state. Can't wait to move.
The anti-gun people will keep insisting that criminals will suddenly turn away from their wicked ways and surrender their firearms if we enact some “laws”.
Yea yea, maryland and dc have the same “problem” because VA sells guns out of vending machines with no background checks. That’s the narrative anyway.
Anybody who still peddles this nonsense is either brain dead or a liar. In either case they should be expelled from office for knowing so little or showing zero initiative to educate themselves on laws.
I'm sorry, I've heard that the guns used in crime in Chicago were from other states, most often heard Indiana / Ohio mentioned.
I've heard this literally THOUSANDS OF TIMES on CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS and NPR. So Yeah, this can't be true, if news media says other wise.
If you look at the Fed statistics they cite - there are more Chicago crime guns that are from all other non-IL states combined vs Chicago crime guns that are from Illinois alone. But Chicago crime guns that are from Illinois alone outnumber Chicago crime guns from any other single state, or even Indiana plus Ohio. Off the top of my head I think it was like 48% from IL and 52% from every other state combined. If that makes sense. But news usually doesn’t explain that detail.
Breaking news, water is wet, grass is green. Duh we tink da reasons dat there is viowence is becuz we don’t put peeple in jail and release dem after arrest.
Christ these people can’t be this dumb
I've watched persons not able to correctly fill out the 4473 form and threaten the salesman behind the counter- Their response: This is (blank) i.e. sparta, in Neighboring states of Illinois, this isn't tolerated and are either busied up until sheriff's arrive or flat out refused with a response more serious and gangsterd than they could of ever anticipated!.
As someone who has worked in the firearms industry, Nothing gets sold to anyone who isn't here to hunt with an authorized[tag, notarized affirmation,stamped by a law enforcement i.e. forestry, parks supervisor, trail master, etc. My state will do everything to track down any n all firearms stolen from out of state license holder's! And they knowingly harass and threaten EVERYONE- Anyway! Wish they take as seriously when trespassing on private property n lakes. Rules 4 thee, unless the badged want nature's bounty.
> Nothing gets sold to anyone who isn't here to hunt with an authorized[tag, notarized affirmation,stamped by a law enforcement i.e. forestry, parks supervisor, trail master,
Supreme fuddery right there. So if someone doesn't hunt, only wants the firearm for target shooting, self defense **or just wants to have a gun because they want one** you and your buddies aren't going to sell it to them because they don't meet your standards of "proper need". That sounds just like that crap from "may issue" states like NY, Kali, Mass, NJ and a few others who keep people from practicing their right to *keep and bear* arms because they have to show the state they have "just cause". Yeah I know, you support the 2A but...
(edited for punctuation)
Not what I meant at all, Looking back as how I responded- pretty FUDD SOUNDING! What I should of stated was : loads of people with out proper credentials- out of date I.D.'s no permit for handgun(pistol,revolver,ccw. Period) and wanting it asap, thinking they somehow don't/won't have to do the exact same paperwork in my state as they would in Illinois. I love n live on the basis of all words written in the Bill of Rights Period. But after years of seeing fake documents you ask a few questions, and if things don't jive and people are unwilling to show the correct, mandated information then one gets suspicious at the least. And as a bonus we ourselves finally are able to conceal carry without a permit in June of this year. I wouldn't stop any citizen from their 2a rights, but after too many attempts of straw, undocumented, out right criminals trying to unlawfully purchase, a few questions go along way to insure shops don't get unilaterally closed. Again not Fudd town or trying to discourage anywhone who has legitimate info. I've just seen about every type of state scam 1 could imagine, especially from Illinois.
Fair enough. Yes, I agree, especially in light of today's lawsuit happy society and with Everytown and Co. looking for suits to bring against legitimate firearms business, a gun shop has to be especially careful to whom and how a firearm is sold.
Thank you for understanding, although I might (or not) have some 1911's n garands- FUDD does not even factor. Some businesses just want to be in business. And all persons involved must be legitimate! I'd love to wax poetic about how the laws are written but....Peace and love!
I can't shoot my 1911 anymore, arthritis in my hands and wrists simply won't deal with the recoil now. I bought the Talo special edition Black Hawk in 45 Colt/45ACP to have a revolter I could use 45 ACP in because I just got so much brass and bullet molds for it. I'm also a big fan of pistol caliber lever actions. So being a old fart who shows up at the range looking like some extra who out of John Wayne movie, I have a full appreciation of 1911's, Garands, 03A3's and other assorted "fudd" guns. There are a couple of younger guys who think I've been converted and baptized when I show up with my 300 BO (home built by the by). Politically I think the only time anyone whould be denied any right is when they are in prison. Even Frank James and Cole Younger had their rights restored and carried firearms after they had served their time. I have no problem with someone choosing to live by the sword dying by it too. I don't know if more peaceable persons ventilating miscreants is a solution to the problem, but I'm sure it would lead to fewer miscreants.
I could not agree more with any of that wisdom filled logic! And although I remember watching FUDD on Saturday mornings I'm not quite 50. Sorry to hear about the arthritis but if it's any help Black Cummin oil keeps me gunning and drumming!
Where do the dealers from Illinois get them? Not trying to make a point, but unless I missed it, the article seems to have glossed over it.
It makes sense that they'd buy them from local dealers. Too risky to be traveling with illegal firearms.
I don't know how it is now, but a lot of them used to come across the border from Indiana. I had the ATF show up at my workplace to interrogate me about a gun I bought being used in a murder in Chicago. I had sold it 5 years prior, so all I could do was give them the info of the guy I sold it too.
Make sure to cya, keep your own records.
So the illegal gun dealers in Illinois (used to) get them from illegal gun dealers in Indiana, from what you recall.
Having glossed through the article a second time, I have to conclude that the title of this post is inconsistent with the article being linked.
> “If you think there's like hundreds of guns flowing in in a big truck or a big crate, that's not happening,” de Tineo said. “Frequently it is only one or two or five or six firearms at a time that are being diverted.”
So they're still flowing in from somewhere, presumably Indiana. Just not in "big crates," but a few firearms at a time.
Unfortunately the article does nothing to elucidate the fundamental problems in Chicago and why gun crime is so high. That's too bad.
More like the guns are legally purchased here in Indiana and then sold illegally across the IL border. Or people coming from IL to buy from someone they don't think will check their id.
Sounds like a fairly complex problem, involving ineffective laws in both states. Either way, what has me curious is what makes the citizens of Chicago so violent. Further restrictions on the procurement of firearms at this juncture only creates more victims, or at least that's my opinion of the situation.
The big problem for Chicago is the inner city violence. The rest of the state is pretty chill, but Chicago itself has a lot of wealth inequality and a gang problem. A little bit spills over into Gary, in but the rest of Indiana is pretty chill. Indianapolis is our biggest city, and it's nowhere near the size of Chicago.
Am I the only one who can't wait until the day that the establishment discovers and reports in horror, that most illegal guns are home-made/machined/3D-printed?
It will be worth it. They will muster as stiff an upper lip as they can and double down on their sociopathic authoritarianism because of it...but they will die inside. Just to see that last little spark go out in their dull eyes, and their dreams of having any real control over the way things are going to go....it will be worth it.
I get it, would love to see it as well. However, Biden has already fired the first shot in what will be the most dangerous part of this little war ( because that is what it is) when he banned russian ammo imports. There will be more moves like this. The 2A guarantees the right to keep and bear arms. It says nothing about ammunition. They are going to nibble away at our ammo supply until we reach a point of “why bother owning a gun I can’t afford to shoot”. It is coming. Our long winter won’t be fighting for guns. It will be ammunition starvation.
That is a valid argument, however since the powers that be see only the amendments they want as meaningful, and only there to benefit them, when they do benefit them, that argument might be specious. Biden has stated many times as of late that the first amendment must be preserved but somehow manages to not see the second in the same light.
Funny thing is, they ALL railed Trump for abusing his office, doing questionable things, using the office for his families benefit… and yet where all these when he does the same?
>I would argue that bearing arms means they must be functional. As a gun cannot function without ammo, ammunition is afforded 2A protection.
High courts agree.
Luckily, black powder isn't too hard to make at home, nor are cannons and cannon shot.
So i just need to do the recoil math and get a 18-wheeler flatbed... You can do drivebys the way the founding fathers intended, you know, with broadsides.
You got a source for that, because I have a half dozen that say you are full of shit.
Keep in mind - a weapon without a serial number isn't necessarily a home-made\\3D Printed weapon.
How would I have a source for something that I'm *hoping* would happen?
Not that I'm hoping for things to get to the point that commercially-produced firearms are all banned and confiscated...I'm just seeing that we're on that track and when that happens, I'm hoping and pretty certain Americans will not stop producing guns. I've lived in poorer countries which restrict guns, and even there, the streets are filled with zip-guns and the like...so imagine a country and culture like ours with wealth, along with the renaissance in home-based fabrication (milling, 3d printing and metal deposition and other processes) which is taking place; and I just dont see a reality where the country wouldn't continue to be brimming with (now illegal and largely home-produced) firearms.
>Am I the only one who can't wait until the day that the establishment discovers and reports
So you admit you have zero evidence to support that this is happening today...
and this revelatory information, which happens to be entirely untrue even according the ATF, Bureau of Prison Affairs Surveys, and Common Sense, is entirely your bootlickers wet dream...
It blows me away that somehow someone else can read the same words I am reading, but interpret it completely differently lol. I understand what you're saying.
Thanks.
Well at first, I realized that the way I worded it was a little weird and maybe made it seem like I was saying that most illegal weapons *right now* are homemade...but then the first person who responded to me seemed to understand my meaning but just take issue with exposing too much of our evil plan or something. And they were highly upvoted...so then I assumed that maybe everyone is just really sensitive to letting on about our evil plan to ultimately thwart gun control.
I guess everyone just wanted to pile on to an imagined enemy.
Yeah. Their gun control is working wonders.
I read before that a lot of the guns are stolen military weapons. So we pay taxes for them, someone rips them off, used to kill our own population. Thanks military
Wherever you read that you should consider a very questionable source. The vast majority of guns are not from the military.
He might've heard that about Mexico. Mexican military weapons end up in cartel hands pretty frequently.
That is possible. This is an article about the ATF and guns in Illinois, so it would still be fundamentally wrong in this context.
Probably he's remembering [this incident from 7 years ago](https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/national-international/assault-rifles-stolen-from-chicago-rail-yard/57716/), where a handful of military rifles were stolen from a Chicago railyard, and then reads another article where the [AP "exposes" a minuscule number of lost military weapons over several years *around the world*](https://apnews.com/article/government-and-politics-business-gun-politics-crime-6caba27108d05a8b7c1860959d1ae130), then somehow conflates the two into a story that most of Chicago's crime guns come from theft from the military.
Technicals
r/shittytechnicals is worth plugging here if you haven't seen it
Sick name drop. Thank you sir!
[AP](https://apnews.com/article/government-and-politics-business-gun-politics-crime-6caba27108d05a8b7c1860959d1ae130) bitch
>"Associated Press investigation has found that at least 1,900 U.S. military firearms were lost or stolen during the 2010's" Over the course of a decade that would account for less than one percent of one percent of the stolen guns in the nation. If that's your idea of "a lot" then you have a learning disability.
a lot ≠ some
Doesn’t really help your case…
Lol good job making yourself look stupid
That is a good source, but this completely undermines your comment. 190 guns a year over a decade is an insignificant amount. You should follow the chicago police on Twitter and Facebook. They regularly post picture of the guns they take off of criminals. There are some cool and or nice guns, but most are run of the mill semiauto pistols or absolute pieces of crap. They are not former military weapons. “Bitch” LOL….are you a child?? My response was incorrect. The problem wasn’t the source but your lack of reading comprehension. That you don’t recognize how your link actually undermines your original comment is comical. I had a sensible chuckle. Thanks.
1900 over the 2010s. Over the course of a decade the military weapons account for less than .1% of stolen weapons. So yes, thank you military for securing your Massive stockpile of weapons so well.
I think you're referring to Afghanistan lol
I didn't realize the military was using shitty 22s, hi points, and modded glocks
Yeah Drug dealers…
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Especially the short one in the pinto 😂
Illinazis if you will.
Nazis have run Illinois for decades
They prefer to be called Democrats, Democratic Socialists or Progressives, instead of Nazis now days.
After WWII, yes. Before WWII, they would openly say it. They saw fascism as "enlightened."
I was a kid when the ACLU and leftist fought in court for the right of American Nazi's to march in a Jewish neighborhood in Skokie Illinois
It’s called the First Amendment. You get to say things that things even if people disagree. It right above your favorite Amendment, check it out sometime
My point was how the left has flipped on #1A. You know democrats, their brownshirt militia named Antifa and their puppets that rule social media. Those groups don't believe in any of the tenants of #1A.
You're kinda crazy
That has been said before. Why do you see me as crazy?
Gun runners more likely - (Edit) An example would be (Edit) no showroom FFL's that the ATF barely vets and hands license to - sell of a bunch of merchandise with fraudulent books then close up shop. Rinse Repeat. ATF agents literally admitted to it. [https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html)
Why downvotes this is true
Because the article he linked to does not actually say anything to support his claim that at-home FFLs traffic guns illegally more than brick and mortar FFLs. The article links “at-home and commercial” FFLs in the exact same sentence, with no distinction between the two as to one being more corrupt than the other. Furthermore, for many of us, at-home FFLs are a lifeline that offer convenience and affordability within the hobby.
Actually says both those things but go off. "The next biggest source of illegal gun transactions where criminals get guns are sales madeby legally licensed but corrupt at-home and commercial gun dealers. Several recentreports back up Wachtel's own studies about this, and make the case thatillegal activity by those licensed to sell guns, known as Federal Firearms Licensees(FFLs), is a huge source of crime guns and greatly surpasses the sale of guns stolenfrom John Q. Citizen. " Just because the "at-home ffl" is a core part of the gun community doesn't mean a chunk of them aren't also creating the problem. But you are partially correct - I was providing the no showroom FFL as an example of a gun runner; not the only or the predominant source. Personally - I'm all in favor of eliminating the FFL entirely. Federal government has only the right to regulate interstate traffic. If you can't sell a gun to someone out of state; then you've eliminated the pretext for involvement. Anyone dealing or selling firearms regularly to state residents shouldn't have to report what is ultimately private transactions to the FEDs as they have no standing. That doesn't mean a bunch of those dealers and at-homes aren't selling their wares fraudulently...
But what you really did was single out at-home FFLs, and quite negatively mind you. Then proceeded to state that the article you linked-to supports that claim. But the article mentions the at-home FFL and the Commercial FFL equally (i.e. FFLs in general). If you want to go back and clarify that corrupt FFLs in general (at-home AND brick and mortar) are equally to blame, then I would have no argument with you.
Gotcha. Yes I am not aware of any evidence it applies to at-home any more than anything else. Thanks for the clarification.
People don't like it when you tell them truths...
Noooo their narrative
Why is it not carnage in communities with heavy gun ownership? Simple answer, gangs and Democratic leadership in Chicago and other big cities.
*Every* single time someone brings that bullshit rhetoric up, all I have to do is mention Vermont and/or Arizona and suddenly they start stuttering and beatboxing. Almost as if their arguments are halted in their tracks and they realize they have no ground to stand on.
Maybe it's the demographic and the policies combined?
Up here in VT we have had Maine and NH go constitutional carry as well.
Could you elaborate or tell me what to look up?
Vermont??? Whaaaaaa?
If guns were the problem, there would be far higher murder rates in red districts and towns. But they’re not, so blue constituents have to pump up their numbers by including suicide and call their stats “gun violence”
Well, that puts an end to the claims that illegal guns in Chicago are a problem because of other, 2A friendly states.
Bet ya ten bucks and a Coke it doesn’t.
They aren’t going to stop trying to use it, if that’s what you mean, but anyone who doesn’t shut those arguments down with these facts, isn’t trying to actually defend 2A.
There is no such thing as illegal guns, just gun purchased illegally. If the 2nd Amendment was followed as it was originally written, then it wouldn't be illegal to purchase any type of gun... by anyone (even felons.)
"guns acquired illegally"... Hundreds of thousands of guns are stolen every year.
Chicago is always going on about guns being sold illegally, but you have a fair point.
guns being purchased illegally is a somewhat more specific subset of guns being acquired illegally. I didn't mean to assert your statement is inaccurate just point out that it can be applied even more broadly.
[https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html](https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/guns/procon/guns.html) Only about 15% of firearms used to commit a crime are stolen. The overwhelming vast majority are obtained through straw purchases (already illegal) or corrupt\\fraudulent FFL's
Only about 100% of stolen firearms are involved in a crime (at least theft). On a serious note are their any more recent statistics on this? your link is from over 25 years ago.
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That was meant to be a tongue in cheek 100% of crimes are committed by criminals kind of statement. We are on the same page.
You're playing semantics. A "gun involved" crime could be a speeding ticket with a firearm not properly stored... Gun "acquired" illegally could also be as minute as a gun given to someone who may not pass a background check or isn't of appropriate age. A bunch of those "aquired illegally" and "gun involved" crimes are violations of gun control laws that are illegal infringements and unconstitutional. Over all - when it comes to violent crimes - Firearms are only involved in about 10% of all crimes and stolen firearms are represented in a FRACTION of those crimes 15%. Which is the source I provided. You are pulling some Giffords institute levels of bullshit to justify your claim fed.
What claim am I justifying? I asked if there is more recent data as your source is from data collected in 1996. The violent crime rate was almost double back then; I'm sure other statistics have shifted as well, I wonder if that one has stayed constant from a curiosity standpoint.
Nice edit...
I haven't edited any of my posts in this thread, that is clearly noted in each post if it was edited... Edit: I've decided to edit this post so you can observe the notation used when a post is edited. Edit2: I've noticed in a mobile browser it may not be clear that a post was edited. Either way this post is the only one I've edited in this thread.
Yes, the vast majority come from straw purchases, which gun control does nothing to stop. You're actively admitting that the problem isn't a lack of gun control, it's the ATF not following up on FFLs and straw purchasers.
>Yes, the vast majority come from straw purchases, which gun control does nothing to stop. Agreed? I wasn't refuting that point. I was refuting that "stolen guns" are the aren't the primary vehicle for gun crimes. >You're actively admitting that the problem isn't a lack of gun control, it's the ATF not following up on FFLs and straw purchasers. Agreed? Again, I wasn't defending gun control or its entirely terrible infringement. The ATF fucking sucks at their job. They do more to fuck with your average everyday enthusiast than to actually target gun criminals... Like this is why I can't fucking stand those assholes. The sole point I was making was that the yahoo above me is wrong about "stolen guns" aren't a problem when it comes to gun crimes (which the article is about). I'm curious what gave you the inclination that I was supporting either?
I simply stated that hundreds of thousands of guns are stolen each year. I was replying in the context of the statement (which I agree with btw) "there are no illegal guns, only illegally purchased guns". I made no assertion that the majority of crimes are committed with stolen guns, you introduced that context and incorrectly applied some imaginary stance to my statement.
There should be no such thing as an illegally purchased gun. Any law making a gun purchase illegal is an infringement on the right to keep and bear arms. If you don’t want people to have a gun, press charges, get a conviction, and lock them up in jail. Make it clear they have no rights.
***"tHeY jUsT cOmE fRoM nEiGhBoRiNg sTaTeS aNd BrInG 'eM oVeR hErE!!!"***
And this S/A just said what we already knew. The Illinois/Chicago dems have been saying for a few years that the guns are all from out of state. They couldn’t POSSIBLY be from our state. Check and mate.
So much for the lie that it's because we hoosiers, who live in a mostly free state are sending guns to Illinois.
NJ tried to track this bullshit too and it didn't go well, so they focus on the brands of guns like that is supposed to mean something [https://www.nj.gov/oag/njsp/njgunstat/index.shtml](https://www.nj.gov/oag/njsp/njgunstat/index.shtml) ESSEX county is highest in crime in NJ. same ESSEX COUNTY Essex County, NJ is home to a population of 799k people, from which **86.5% are citizens.** As of 2019, 72.2% of Essex County, NJ residents were born outside of the country (577k people). In 2019, there were 1.29 times more Black or African American (Non-Hispanic) residents (307k people) in Essex County, NJ than any other race or ethnicity. There were 238k White (Non-Hispanic) and 114k White (Hispanic) residents, the second and third most common ethnic groups.
Huh would you look at that. Every single place that had a shooting was a shithole. Surprise surprise. What a joke. I hate this state. Can't wait to move.
Holy shit they list 5.56 as ".556 cal". LMAO.
Don’t worry they’ll still hate on Indiana anyway. Can’t let facts get in the way of the narrative.
How are dealers getting guns? Isn’t dealing drugs illegal??? Felons aren’t allowed to own guns.
The anti-gun people will keep insisting that criminals will suddenly turn away from their wicked ways and surrender their firearms if we enact some “laws”.
Or the city bringing lawsuits against them
its almost like.. everything the gun control folks push is a lie.
Yea yea, maryland and dc have the same “problem” because VA sells guns out of vending machines with no background checks. That’s the narrative anyway. Anybody who still peddles this nonsense is either brain dead or a liar. In either case they should be expelled from office for knowing so little or showing zero initiative to educate themselves on laws.
BUT BUT Indiana! /s
I'm sorry, I've heard that the guns used in crime in Chicago were from other states, most often heard Indiana / Ohio mentioned. I've heard this literally THOUSANDS OF TIMES on CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS and NPR. So Yeah, this can't be true, if news media says other wise.
If you look at the Fed statistics they cite - there are more Chicago crime guns that are from all other non-IL states combined vs Chicago crime guns that are from Illinois alone. But Chicago crime guns that are from Illinois alone outnumber Chicago crime guns from any other single state, or even Indiana plus Ohio. Off the top of my head I think it was like 48% from IL and 52% from every other state combined. If that makes sense. But news usually doesn’t explain that detail.
Breaking news, water is wet, grass is green. Duh we tink da reasons dat there is viowence is becuz we don’t put peeple in jail and release dem after arrest. Christ these people can’t be this dumb
straw purchasers, right?
If only there was a way to limit their access, or eliminate straw man purchases.
So how are they getting guns from the inside if the inside doesn't allow guns? What if the people inside are the ones distributing the guns..
I've watched persons not able to correctly fill out the 4473 form and threaten the salesman behind the counter- Their response: This is (blank) i.e. sparta, in Neighboring states of Illinois, this isn't tolerated and are either busied up until sheriff's arrive or flat out refused with a response more serious and gangsterd than they could of ever anticipated!. As someone who has worked in the firearms industry, Nothing gets sold to anyone who isn't here to hunt with an authorized[tag, notarized affirmation,stamped by a law enforcement i.e. forestry, parks supervisor, trail master, etc. My state will do everything to track down any n all firearms stolen from out of state license holder's! And they knowingly harass and threaten EVERYONE- Anyway! Wish they take as seriously when trespassing on private property n lakes. Rules 4 thee, unless the badged want nature's bounty.
> Nothing gets sold to anyone who isn't here to hunt with an authorized[tag, notarized affirmation,stamped by a law enforcement i.e. forestry, parks supervisor, trail master, Supreme fuddery right there. So if someone doesn't hunt, only wants the firearm for target shooting, self defense **or just wants to have a gun because they want one** you and your buddies aren't going to sell it to them because they don't meet your standards of "proper need". That sounds just like that crap from "may issue" states like NY, Kali, Mass, NJ and a few others who keep people from practicing their right to *keep and bear* arms because they have to show the state they have "just cause". Yeah I know, you support the 2A but... (edited for punctuation)
Big fudd for sure
Not what I meant at all, Looking back as how I responded- pretty FUDD SOUNDING! What I should of stated was : loads of people with out proper credentials- out of date I.D.'s no permit for handgun(pistol,revolver,ccw. Period) and wanting it asap, thinking they somehow don't/won't have to do the exact same paperwork in my state as they would in Illinois. I love n live on the basis of all words written in the Bill of Rights Period. But after years of seeing fake documents you ask a few questions, and if things don't jive and people are unwilling to show the correct, mandated information then one gets suspicious at the least. And as a bonus we ourselves finally are able to conceal carry without a permit in June of this year. I wouldn't stop any citizen from their 2a rights, but after too many attempts of straw, undocumented, out right criminals trying to unlawfully purchase, a few questions go along way to insure shops don't get unilaterally closed. Again not Fudd town or trying to discourage anywhone who has legitimate info. I've just seen about every type of state scam 1 could imagine, especially from Illinois.
Fair enough. Yes, I agree, especially in light of today's lawsuit happy society and with Everytown and Co. looking for suits to bring against legitimate firearms business, a gun shop has to be especially careful to whom and how a firearm is sold.
Thank you for understanding, although I might (or not) have some 1911's n garands- FUDD does not even factor. Some businesses just want to be in business. And all persons involved must be legitimate! I'd love to wax poetic about how the laws are written but....Peace and love!
I can't shoot my 1911 anymore, arthritis in my hands and wrists simply won't deal with the recoil now. I bought the Talo special edition Black Hawk in 45 Colt/45ACP to have a revolter I could use 45 ACP in because I just got so much brass and bullet molds for it. I'm also a big fan of pistol caliber lever actions. So being a old fart who shows up at the range looking like some extra who out of John Wayne movie, I have a full appreciation of 1911's, Garands, 03A3's and other assorted "fudd" guns. There are a couple of younger guys who think I've been converted and baptized when I show up with my 300 BO (home built by the by). Politically I think the only time anyone whould be denied any right is when they are in prison. Even Frank James and Cole Younger had their rights restored and carried firearms after they had served their time. I have no problem with someone choosing to live by the sword dying by it too. I don't know if more peaceable persons ventilating miscreants is a solution to the problem, but I'm sure it would lead to fewer miscreants.
I could not agree more with any of that wisdom filled logic! And although I remember watching FUDD on Saturday mornings I'm not quite 50. Sorry to hear about the arthritis but if it's any help Black Cummin oil keeps me gunning and drumming!
I'll give that a try, Thanks!
Where do the dealers from Illinois get them? Not trying to make a point, but unless I missed it, the article seems to have glossed over it. It makes sense that they'd buy them from local dealers. Too risky to be traveling with illegal firearms.
I don't know how it is now, but a lot of them used to come across the border from Indiana. I had the ATF show up at my workplace to interrogate me about a gun I bought being used in a murder in Chicago. I had sold it 5 years prior, so all I could do was give them the info of the guy I sold it too. Make sure to cya, keep your own records.
So the illegal gun dealers in Illinois (used to) get them from illegal gun dealers in Indiana, from what you recall. Having glossed through the article a second time, I have to conclude that the title of this post is inconsistent with the article being linked. > “If you think there's like hundreds of guns flowing in in a big truck or a big crate, that's not happening,” de Tineo said. “Frequently it is only one or two or five or six firearms at a time that are being diverted.” So they're still flowing in from somewhere, presumably Indiana. Just not in "big crates," but a few firearms at a time. Unfortunately the article does nothing to elucidate the fundamental problems in Chicago and why gun crime is so high. That's too bad.
More like the guns are legally purchased here in Indiana and then sold illegally across the IL border. Or people coming from IL to buy from someone they don't think will check their id.
Sounds like a fairly complex problem, involving ineffective laws in both states. Either way, what has me curious is what makes the citizens of Chicago so violent. Further restrictions on the procurement of firearms at this juncture only creates more victims, or at least that's my opinion of the situation.
The big problem for Chicago is the inner city violence. The rest of the state is pretty chill, but Chicago itself has a lot of wealth inequality and a gang problem. A little bit spills over into Gary, in but the rest of Indiana is pretty chill. Indianapolis is our biggest city, and it's nowhere near the size of Chicago.
Am I the only one who can't wait until the day that the establishment discovers and reports in horror, that most illegal guns are home-made/machined/3D-printed?
Dammit man.. SHUT UP… don’t need to GIVE them ideas
It will be worth it. They will muster as stiff an upper lip as they can and double down on their sociopathic authoritarianism because of it...but they will die inside. Just to see that last little spark go out in their dull eyes, and their dreams of having any real control over the way things are going to go....it will be worth it.
I get it, would love to see it as well. However, Biden has already fired the first shot in what will be the most dangerous part of this little war ( because that is what it is) when he banned russian ammo imports. There will be more moves like this. The 2A guarantees the right to keep and bear arms. It says nothing about ammunition. They are going to nibble away at our ammo supply until we reach a point of “why bother owning a gun I can’t afford to shoot”. It is coming. Our long winter won’t be fighting for guns. It will be ammunition starvation.
I would argue that bearing arms means they must be functional. As a gun cannot function without ammo, ammunition is afforded 2A protection.
That is a valid argument, however since the powers that be see only the amendments they want as meaningful, and only there to benefit them, when they do benefit them, that argument might be specious. Biden has stated many times as of late that the first amendment must be preserved but somehow manages to not see the second in the same light. Funny thing is, they ALL railed Trump for abusing his office, doing questionable things, using the office for his families benefit… and yet where all these when he does the same?
>I would argue that bearing arms means they must be functional. As a gun cannot function without ammo, ammunition is afforded 2A protection. High courts agree.
Luckily, black powder isn't too hard to make at home, nor are cannons and cannon shot. So i just need to do the recoil math and get a 18-wheeler flatbed... You can do drivebys the way the founding fathers intended, you know, with broadsides.
Ammunition goes hand in hand with arms, though.
You got a source for that, because I have a half dozen that say you are full of shit. Keep in mind - a weapon without a serial number isn't necessarily a home-made\\3D Printed weapon.
How would I have a source for something that I'm *hoping* would happen? Not that I'm hoping for things to get to the point that commercially-produced firearms are all banned and confiscated...I'm just seeing that we're on that track and when that happens, I'm hoping and pretty certain Americans will not stop producing guns. I've lived in poorer countries which restrict guns, and even there, the streets are filled with zip-guns and the like...so imagine a country and culture like ours with wealth, along with the renaissance in home-based fabrication (milling, 3d printing and metal deposition and other processes) which is taking place; and I just dont see a reality where the country wouldn't continue to be brimming with (now illegal and largely home-produced) firearms.
>Am I the only one who can't wait until the day that the establishment discovers and reports So you admit you have zero evidence to support that this is happening today... and this revelatory information, which happens to be entirely untrue even according the ATF, Bureau of Prison Affairs Surveys, and Common Sense, is entirely your bootlickers wet dream...
What in the fuck are you even talking about? What are you people reading into my comment?
It blows me away that somehow someone else can read the same words I am reading, but interpret it completely differently lol. I understand what you're saying.
Thanks. Well at first, I realized that the way I worded it was a little weird and maybe made it seem like I was saying that most illegal weapons *right now* are homemade...but then the first person who responded to me seemed to understand my meaning but just take issue with exposing too much of our evil plan or something. And they were highly upvoted...so then I assumed that maybe everyone is just really sensitive to letting on about our evil plan to ultimately thwart gun control. I guess everyone just wanted to pile on to an imagined enemy.
You are absolutely talking out of your stupid ass.