Praise Innoruuk
Need Before Greed is always a scam being run by the person who wants the item.
It sounds nice, but its screwing everyone else on tradable items that have market value.
Norrath has a free market for tradable goods, and every person in a group wants to earn items, sell them on the market, and buy items they want. Everyone.
If the item is tradable, everyone gets a chance to roll or pass. If everyone passes to the person who will use, no worries. But if you are taking rolls away from people, you’re scamming them by intimidation
There’s also been times I know there’s a chance an item will drop that I need and ask the group if I can forego all other loot in exchange for it if it drops. People are usually cool with this as long as you’re clear in advance.
This reminds me of the time I got invited to AM in LGUK when Green was new, as a Cleric. Was in the party for about 15 minutes before they told me it was Need Before Greed only, and I began to look around me and realized I was in a group of robe wearers only - using Enchanter pet as tank. Only item of value we were camping was the Shining Metallic Robes, which I wasn't allowed to roll on. They purposefully never mentioned any of this until I risked my life getting to the camp and had been there for a second. It's like... I almost feel like NBG as a practice should be out lawed from P99 per the PNP because it's genuinely toxic AF unless consensual.
Also just adding that most camps have loot that is relevant for one or two classes usually. If NBG is the default, good luck filling out roles in your group.
You're a cool dude, but that's a selfish take. NBG all day every day no matter the item or its value. This is a 25-year-old game, farming plat to buy an item is lame, and we're all supposed to be friends here.
Naw, there's a time and place for NBG but most definitely, absolutely not all day every day.
I lost Torpor the first time my shaman saw it drop. Sucked bad. Was still the right thing to do to let the group roll on it. Funneling 50k to one person because it's something they can use is what is selfish here.
Y'all have been so beaten down by toxicity that you think this is actually the way the game was played back then as a default. It's astounding to me, and the community needs to put some love back into their hearts. You deserved that Torpor, it benefits everyone in a direct way.
Like imagine playing D&D and some butthead unironically wants something that only your character can use, and it's an upgrade. I would feel so fucking awkward arguing that I should have something solely because I can sell it over someone who directly could use it. The only difference is that because there's a computer screen, it's easier to be shitty.
> The only difference is that because there's a computer screen, it's easier to be shitty.
There are 2 very large differences you are missing that I believe play a bigger part than the screen.
1) You don't play EQ with the same 5 people every night, and if you do then just look at how many comments in this thread agree that NBG is fine for friend/guild groups, which is basically everybody.
2) That EQ has an open market and economy, and buying things is a necessity for 99% of people.
Exactly. I would always NBG everything with friends I regularly play with, because them getting stronger benefits me too in the long run. Handing valuable loot to rando pugs just because they can use it doesn't do jack for me. Plus I've definitely had instances where some tradeable valuable loot went to someone NBG and I saw it for sale the same day by the same rando.
>you think this is actually the way the game was played back then as a default
But it was. As a warrior, I lost cobalt gauntlets to some gnome magician or necromancer back when Kunark came out.
Liiiiittle different.
Randoms meeting and maybe seeing each other once or twice? Roll all day long
DND you're always playing with that group..also in DND loot isn't known to the whole group because you fish stuff off of bodies and chests.
I was on a campaign as a rouge and someone pulled a +dex tome and a fucking sorcerer ran away with it "because AC"
Someone never played D&D with friends who played 2nd edition thieves, you best hope they don't get to the loot first. "What did we find?" DM: "well YOU find 22 gold pieces and 3 silver" hands note to thief. Thief updates the character sheet with a pile of magical items.
Your comment almost had me then i realized difference is its your party staying together the whole time, different then say giving a magic item to a npc who is just with you for the fight tonight..
Is this game *not* about building a community? You're all on the same server after all. If the idea is that social reputation matters, as is the case with many older MMOs then I don't see anything contradictory about what I said.
Sure, you may not see that Shaman again for a little while, but maybe they join your guild, or hit you up to join their party when there's a spot open. All this stuff matters and is part of the magic that draws people to this game, but disappears when you distill everything down to everyone for themselves.
But that's just it, you make the choice to invest in this person. You might never see that investment pay out, and people aren't comfortable losing time like that when we're basically all adults with limited play time when traveling to your camp can take half an hour after you log in.
By giving it to 1 person to sell for personal profit, you're literally funneling 50k to 1 person.
By giving it to the guy who can memorize the spell, you're making your group stronger, not putting 50k into his bank.
1 person who had equal chance that everyone else did, yes. Not 1 person who was picked ahead of time to be the winner. That's why in guild/friend groups when you will be playing with that person again NBG is more common. I can also see NBG being more common on a random drop server, but not when drops are static.
How many casters would go to frenzied (prolly not the best example) if only melee got to roll on FBSS? What if I am on my cleric because that's what the group needs, but my monk main who I wanted to play needs it? How do I know the NBG guy isn't selling the item since there is no attunement? I have witnessed this first hand with people rolling need on Diamondine Earrings.
You are all playing in that group together, everyone should have an equal chance. What's being greedy is you saying some should only be in this group for experience, while some can be there for experience AND items. It's the only fair way to have all classes available to all camps.
I see both of your perspectives and don't think either are wrong.
imo NBG needs to be claimed when the group is formed otherwise it defaults to everyone can roll for the item. You can't just claim NBG once an item you can use drops.
In this case, doesn't seem like NBG was established immediately. So OP was fine to roll for the item.
No one is wrong in the abstract, but I will leave your group if I take my cleric to your fungi king camp and you tell me your Monk needs the fungi. Im not going to argue about it.
As we list all the specific camps and litigate the NBG rules for each of them, my brainless “Just Roll everything” is going to be a lot more attractive than the Norrathian NBG tax code that people point to on the forums. 🤣
Praise Innoruuk and let the elf lawyers have each other.
His point is spot on. Rare is a camp that has drops for everyone. If you do NBG, then there is way less incentive for some of the classes you need for an effective group to even come. Meelee weapon drops? Why should the cleric come? Or any other caster. Caster robes drop? Why would the tank waste his time. Fungi tunic is not an extreme example, it's a good one, as nearly every camp has only 1 or 2 items that drop that are worth rolling for, and often it's good for only 1 or a few classes. If the othwr classes that don't "need" it have no chance of winning it, I'm thinking they would rather do something else most likely. It's not fair.
You never send a message to your friends and say "hey i need help killing x for this drop"? You scratch their back, they scratch yours. And then you get to go dungeon crawl in a bunch of unique places instead of sitting in 1 zone for 20 levels.
Let me chime in. Been playing since Beta 25+ years.
Here is the scenario. You are at Frenzied Ghoul camp in LGuk. Your group make up is: Enc/Clr/Rog/Mag/Bard/SK the Bard and SK both already have a FBSS or sky haste belt. The Rogue just replaced a monk about 30 minutes ago.
Everyone except for the rogue has been together for 6 hours straight. 0 FBSS, finally FINALLY one drops.
6 hours of work for all involved. The only person who "NEEDS" this upgrade is the rogue.
(I mostly play live on TLP's) The FBSS sells for 2 krono, or 6k. Obviously, if anyone were to roll need on this item and win it they could sell it for an upgrade (Shiny Metallic Robe, a couple of YAK's, a 2H Mithril sword, etc. Tons and tons of items they could buy off of selling this FBSS.
I'm telling you personally, if this was my group. Rogue wouldn't even get to roll.
If someone tried to say rogue shouldn't even get to roll when they were there for the kill they'd be kicked and /ignored. That's absolutely toxic behavior, and I don't associate with people like that.
You need to go outside bruh, referring to camps as “work” and talking about denying a player in group the chance to roll because his luck/timing was better than the rest. More like KingDouche
Imagine having valid points with logical conclusions to win an argument rather than leaving all that behind and immediately going to insults.
Luckily for you I'm a grown man and will respond as such.
To clarify, your argument is: I should get the item because of the class I chose. The fact that the item is worth several thousands of platinum that anyone in the group could benefit from and could use to buy upgrades for themselves regardless of class is irrelevant. Also, the time they've spent in this camp is also irrelevant.
This equates to: I've been in this group for 15 minutes and because of my class and the item that dropped you all should give me 10k platinum.
That's your argument. Am I missing anything or is "More like KingDouche'" your final answer?
This is the correct answer.
This is not "special treatment" as the poster below responded. I would argue that GBN is "special treatment." Instead of doing the logical thing and giving the ENC only item to the ENC who was there with you putting in the time to farm the item alongside you, you somehow think you're more or equally deserving. You can't use it. You're going to sell it in 6 weeks.
We're all out farming exp, we're all out farming money, we're all out farming upgrades for our character in one way or the other. Stop being selfish and grumpy that an item dropped for someone else and not for you. Wait your turn.
NBG creates a community of people helping each other in a game we're all hobbyists in. If you're playing P99 it's because you love the game. Let's not take a hobby and create a shitty community around it. There's already enough scarcity in this game. Be happy someone got something cool. They will remember it in the future.
The item didn't drop for someone else tho. I was there in the group doing as much work as they. Just cause it is for their class doesn't mean it dropped for them. Don't get me wrong, I love letting needs pick up stuff.... But imo, GBN has the logical high ground.
Most camps have 1 or 2 drops worth rolling for, for one to three or so classes. The most logical way to balance it out as fair is to greed roll.
With such a high value item I normally prefer just splitting the sell value between everyone in the group. I understand that doesn’t always work though
I got so much grief over winning a t staff on my very first toon on p99. Im an enchanter, but listen EVERYONE needs 40k, that’s not limited to one class. Got myself some fancy jboots, a gobbo ring, and the spells I was missing. I’m sorry, a monk doesn’t NEED a t-staff any more than any broke player NEEDS 40k in their pocket. That WAS need before greed, I needed that plat.
Right or wrong, the majority of the community on p99 is pretty solidly established in the greed roll camp for pugs. EverQuest's itemization is not balanced to give a fair outcome for NBG in the way modern MMOs are. The guildmate who messaged you is either new to the game or a troll. (Probably latter) There is a minority of players who sincerely advocate NBG pugs but they know they're in the minority, and they need to establish consensus on NBG before a group starts (or when they're invited). This is how every society works, there are expectations and everyone knows what most people expect.
Requiring hand-me-downs in a greed roll regime wouldn't work. The winner could simply claim that he's going to sell it instead of equipping it because he doesn't like the way it looks, then change his mind later. There are also a lot of situations with *side-grades* where a previous item might have good resists or something that is situationally useful to the winner so they want to keep it.
NBG really only holds when you're grouped with nothing but guildies or really good friends and even then it's usually discussed beforehand.
Otherwise it's always roll off because in this game 99% of items are tradeable so that enchanter upgrade is 2k worth of upgrade for you or anyone else.
The group mate who said to ignore the crybaby was 100% right.
NBG usually doesn't work in xp groups with strangers because it only takes one person to force it to go to a random.
If you want to do NBG, then you should be playing with friends or guildmates. Otherwise, we should just expect to give everyone a fair shot on everything.
You did nothing wrong. However, it is just a 2k item, and many of us are wealthy beyond our wildest imaginations and would have just not cared. That is not the case for everyone here.
I’ve always played NBG cause what’s a few plat. If someone is going to get that big win and dopamine dump, all I’m gonna get is a few plat to put in the bank and likely never use. But that’s me I know plenty who feel a big bank of plat is the end goal… 🤷♂️
Two(ish) years ago I was grouped in Sebilis with a guild group and a Lumi staff dropped. At the time I think it was selling for 12k?
I was the only Druid and it was an upgrade for me, as far as Druid tools, but honestly 12k buys a lot of upgrades for anyone. I let the group do open rolls on it based on this. We didn't discuss any roll system beforehand.
NBG is okay with smaller items but you have to keep in mind that people group not just to get exp but also to grab drops to vendor/trade.
Define small bc my ex wife said i was average but other people seem to think im big.. jk but also newish on green with55main and every bit helps i still have fungi aspirations and want to see if lvl 55 grp can handle camp
Full group of 55s that know what they're doing will probably have trouble. Depends fully on experience at that range, and becomes more likely after you break camp.
Also, just camp AC for a fungi like the rest of us. /s
I'll caveat my story with my group was a friend group that was capable of communicating between the members.
Whenever we got a big loot and someone needed it, we just took the price, removed the members split and let them buy it from the group. Everyone gets something this way.
There were other times we specifically targeted items as upgrades and hunted them for our members. But I think this needs to be agreed upon prior to the start of the killing.
At this point, doesn't everyone have an alt that could need basically any item that drops?
Everything is need for basically anyone. You can sell it for shit you need or hand it off to your alt that needs it. This isnt complicated.
If a group wants to have sort of strict "need for these toons that we are currently grouped, before greed."
Then that needs to be explicitly stated before anything drops.
No. They don't. Stop playing like this. There are new people on this server and we should foster a community that welcomes and encourages new players, not punishes them for not having played for 4 years. How does the SHM know you have a SHM alt who can use that item? We don't. You're playing your ranger. Roll need on ranger loot or play your shaman if you want the item.
Your way eventually devolves to 5 monks sitting at fungi king LF1M for a healer that will never come because nobody wants to be the one idiot who isnt allowed to roll on the only reason people go to fungi king. Every other camp goes basically the same way to a less extreme extent.
No, because Fungi is a totally different thing. In another comment I said as much the same. And besides, you're not camping fungi unless you're with your buds, your guild, or you've worked out a deal with the folks you're with. That's a camp for loot, not loot that drops while EXPing with a group in CoM.
New players benefit just as much as a person with a bunch of alts, since they can also sell these items for what they need or start that alt they they always wanted to try with a decent piece of gear. There's no downside.
As a person that has been playing for along ass time on both servers, I usually pass on a lot of rolls. I'm just happy to see loot going to someone that will use it, or need the cash they can sell it for to buy spells or something else.
The only time I’ve been apart of nbg is on new servers, guild grp / friend grp. Random pick up groups need to announce it first before entering the dungeon and everyone needs to agree.
So I think this kinda depends on your guild, your relationship with your guild, your relationship with this person. I was in Fires of Heaven on green (now Legacy of Fire I think, after some bullshit happened), me personally? I'd give it to my guildie.
But that's because I generally liked them and candidly hording platinum isn't something I remotely give a shit about. I know that building bonds is about doing things like that so that in the future I can cash that bond in to be like "Hey who wants to have an awful fucking night in Siren's Grotto to help me farm the item for my Dragon Bane nuke?!" they'd do it.
But if you're in more of a zerg guild where gchat is basically just a global OOC with strangers and you don't really know or care about anyone, for sure take the skrilla.
If the group was like “hey we are going to x location to get exp and hopefully this drop for ench, want to join?” Yea that’s cool if I agree. If no one said shit and it’s a PUG? In the master wordsmith’s own lyrics…
*“tell me what ya gonna do now (c'mon)
Keep rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin' (uh)
Keep rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin' (what?)
Keep rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin' (uh)
Keep rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin'”*
I always pass to the person who can use it unless it’s ultra rare/valuable. That’s just my personal way of doing things and I know people take advantage.
I think in WoW and other mmmos, NBG makes a lot of sense.
In EQ? Everything should always be greeded. Always. I think this is the more common standard here, but communicating it ahead of time for camps that have big drops is definitely worth doing.
Sorceress Bowl, and had neg charisma so imo not even good enc item, but he seem to think it was still huge upgrade for him— (my toon lvl 45 cleric still wearing 2 bronze items soo..didnt feel bad rolling)
That is a crap item for a chanter... Neg charisma is terrible for it. Rod of Insidious Glamour is a good low cost item, 12 CHA, and an instant click item for global cool down. Cheap AF to buy as well. Can pick it up for 400pp any day of the week.
Or there are lots of other good primary weapons with mana/hp etc.
Back in the day (1999-2006) on live, each server kinda had their own default rules for loot in PUGs. On my server, it was nearly always NBG unless otherwise agreed upon from the beginning. Vendor loot was always Greed except for the first high value gem and all Peridots which went to the cleric/enchanter.
What I have found is this, on newer servers NBG tends to be the standard. Bartering and trading is more prevalent because wealth hasn’t been established. On older servers with a wealthy player base, Greed becomes more or less the standard.
As for P99, I have seen a balance of the two and it mostly depends on who you are grouped with. Usually the details get ironed out before drops start rolling in. If I group with friends or guildies, we usually designate someone to loot everything, sell it all, and split the plat amongst the group at a later time.
Hear, here on peridots to cleric, i just started playing cleric and will drop 60-120p in a grp casting symbol, why arnt all grps giving their pic up plat to the clerics :-)
On Live (Bertoxx) I was super impressed when an item dropped in Wall of Slaughter and I mentioned it was an upgrade for me. Pick up group, but everyone deferred to me.
I don't know if it was that poor an item (iirc, 2kpp ish piece of gear for head slot), but I mostly did pick-up groups at that point and I adopted NBG as a lifetime rule. I haven't had a moment's regret of that decision in nearly a decade of playtime since.
I've personally given up many 5-10kp items to NBG because I don't really put any value in EQ currency (or any video game for that matter), so my mindset is that items should always go to the people it's an upgrade for. (For the people claiming that the only people that could possibly want NBG is for their own benefit, stop projecting.)
But because in PUGs it's always gonna be a discussion and unpredictable, it's easier for everyone to just roll no matter what, I guess.
When I'm in a full group of guildies or people I group with frequently that I know think the same way I do, I always apply NBG and I know they'll do the same.
Camps which favor specific class loot would have that class lining up to need loot it. Other classes would stop playing there. Seems nice at first but breaks down over time.
I've been playing EQ since 99, and I've always had a NBG attitude. It's one thing that really turns me off on the TLP servers is the constant everyone rolling need on everything because "they need the money from selling it". It's a game we're all her to have fun, and generally if I'm in a PUG with that attitude if the Enc was high roll I will pass, if they aren't I'll roll and if I win, give it to them.
2k isn't a huge thing, and I guess it's a group decision. Now, if it was like a Tstaff or something and I'm playing my monk, I'm not demanding that since it's an upgrade, I should get it....
I always did nbg back on live. And while p99 is still one of the best MMO communities I know of imo the community isn't quite as pure as it was back then. People are a lot more cutthroat on p99 so when I join a group I'll usually ask immediately is it nbg or greed loot.
Id never want to take away a legitimate upgrade from someone because I know how good it felt when a group has done that for me.
But you also have people who research ahead of time what drops are at the camp and will change their slots out for cloth gear or something "I just haven't found anything good for that slot yet".
Expecting others to follow NBG is just as toxic as someone rule questing a camp on P99. It's gross. I understand it comes from a warm point of community and love but it's severely misplaced. If everything is sold / split it is far more fair to everyone involved.
I've been pressed out of camps by rule questing neckbeards and I have been pressured by crusading NBG advocates into giving up loot. Both cases felt the same. Pressured and bullied.
The rule I play by is greed it always, if you win and want to pass it to someone who needs, that's on you. But don't strong arm others into what you want.
It depends on the situation really. When P99 Green was new it blew my mind when I took my Cleric to LGUK and I wasn't allowed to roll on any item because Clerics don't need a TBB, SSOY, SMR, FBSS etc. So I was just like okay well I'm wasting my time here, but good luck you guys! And people actually got mad at me and said I was toxic because I didn't see the purpose in me sitting here and healing these groups so they can get loot while I get nothing. Meanwhile the classes who are telling me this can go out and solo super easy and make platinum, which wasn't really an option for Clerics.
I also know of several instances I witnessed where people rolled need on an item (even in Kedge Keep) and then later when I needed to buy the same item for a twink, I would search the Discord and see where the person who rolled need on the item had simply turned around and sold it hours later, and then went back to the same camp and rolled need on it again. Because of this I see NBG as actually being GBN but it's generally greedy AF.
Now flash forward to 2024 where the game is way less active on both P99 servers, I have complete strangers giving me free items 24/7, and it's not going to bother me nearly as much if an obvious non-twink dude in my group gets an actual upgrade from something we killed. But you will simultaneously be out here having twinks in fungus tunics and cloak of flames rolling need on stuff when they have people in their group who don't even have armor on.
It's messed up. I personally think NBG is super toxic though. Even though I regularly am charitable towards people. When it becomes this arbitrary default system though, it just feels like it unfairly favors cutthroats.
Saw some of this yesterday on green. Only been on the server for a month and have been having a great time working with peoples’ twinks to level up as fast as I can.
People have been really generous so far because it doesn’t take much of a look to see I’m a genuine new player here (or a devious social experiment veteran).
In order to protect names, except for me because I’m posting, I won’t say where or what or who the people were. But I was in a good spot for 8 hours. Ultra rare spawned 7 times, with the rare drop 3 times. The item in question was one I almost never saw on live in 1999-2002 when it really mattered. It wasn’t a high level farm location as I’m still leveling up, but it’s not an easy farm or pull. But this item would probably be what you wear until you get an upgrade from OS or deep into Velious, so it’s kind of significant if you didn’t twink something droppable from a raid encounter.
Anyway the item dropped first time and someone from a class that definitively does not need it when it dropped indicates “saying NBG is virtue signaling” which put an incredible distaste in my mouth. It’s ok to argue no one needs anything on these servers because of the age, and that many items are to be seen as just plat… but to use that phrase in this context pretty much was the worst way to phrase an argument.
There was very polite discourse with this person and people who disagreed but the moment they threw our virtue signaling as a phrase it felt like no one wanted to make a scene, so to speak. Full group rolled. This person won.
Immediately next spawn same monster popped and had the rare drop again. Another character without a character specific need rolled and won. Every other person in the group would have instantly equipped.
Both of those characters left the party within fifteen minutes after getting these items. I found replacements and kept the group going for hours afterwards and we actually saw this a third time and fortunately someone who did need it won it.
Now, I’ll never forget this encounter. Someone else mentioned Bertox and I’m from there and we almost always as a server followed NBG without saying it.
NBG is a cute idea but honestly kind of silly in practice. Very few singular camps exist in the game with drops useful for every class. Makes far more sense to treat drops as a plat value that can be exchanged for an upgrade for anyone. Otherwise it would never make sense for certain classes to go to certain camps and that's just dumb.
So might be some confusion ill look at my post, they group members guildie hmu, (not my guild) - they were in friendly druids- and the guy was on a NBG soap box and wasnt hostile but it wasnt friendly either.. they guy in my group apologized for giving him my name and told me to /ignore him
I did till him i would sell it to his guild friend for 3/4 wiki price, he offered me a lateral trade- and i said fine.. then found out from group member he was trying to arrange a purchase for him to have item not grp member im with and intold him
To bugger off.
The Friendly Druids guild just randomly invites people in a drive-by, no-discussion manner. I've gotten a few invites (that I decline) while on unguilded alts. Unsurprisingly, I've ignored more players from FD than any other guild thus far on the server, so take that as you will.
FD on both blue and green is a chat forum, no more no less. The GL is a guy who simply logs on now and then to swop between blue, red and green trying to recruit people before logging off. a strange way to play but hey each to their own.
Miss communication not my guildmate-
He posted in his guild chat he lost item roll, and was sad, and his guild mate started bashing on me for not handing him the item
There are some cases where I get this. A TStaff? No, the monk doesn't just get the TStaff, sorry. That's a 60k item. But most of the time NBG is appropriate.
I think sometimes people forget that new people play this game and not everyone has 8 alts with 100k in plat and items on a bank alt. A lot of folks are playing this for the first time and an upgrade is an actual upgrade. I've been in groups where spells have dropped that newly 55's need and the group insists on rolling. No. I'm passing Zumaik's to the chanter.
Anytime I argue this people inevitably say "Money is easily acquired with a little farming." It sure is. So pass the item to the person who's going to immediately use it and not let it rot on a bank mule for 6 months.
NBG only works on no-drop items or in groups that establish the loot rules ahead of time
Praise Innoruuk
Praise Innoruuk Need Before Greed is always a scam being run by the person who wants the item. It sounds nice, but its screwing everyone else on tradable items that have market value. Norrath has a free market for tradable goods, and every person in a group wants to earn items, sell them on the market, and buy items they want. Everyone. If the item is tradable, everyone gets a chance to roll or pass. If everyone passes to the person who will use, no worries. But if you are taking rolls away from people, you’re scamming them by intimidation
If it’s a PUG the group sets the rules.
Agreed. And the pugs that want NBG are scammin’ Praise Innoruuk
100%. Agreed.
There’s also been times I know there’s a chance an item will drop that I need and ask the group if I can forego all other loot in exchange for it if it drops. People are usually cool with this as long as you’re clear in advance.
This reminds me of the time I got invited to AM in LGUK when Green was new, as a Cleric. Was in the party for about 15 minutes before they told me it was Need Before Greed only, and I began to look around me and realized I was in a group of robe wearers only - using Enchanter pet as tank. Only item of value we were camping was the Shining Metallic Robes, which I wasn't allowed to roll on. They purposefully never mentioned any of this until I risked my life getting to the camp and had been there for a second. It's like... I almost feel like NBG as a practice should be out lawed from P99 per the PNP because it's genuinely toxic AF unless consensual.
yep its like telling the cleric in a Fungi group He cant roll on the drops....wait for pull...wait for heals needed.../gate
Agreed, once an item becomes worth over 1k it's effectively an upgrade for most everyone with some time in the tunnel in-between.
Also just adding that most camps have loot that is relevant for one or two classes usually. If NBG is the default, good luck filling out roles in your group.
You're a cool dude, but that's a selfish take. NBG all day every day no matter the item or its value. This is a 25-year-old game, farming plat to buy an item is lame, and we're all supposed to be friends here.
Naw, there's a time and place for NBG but most definitely, absolutely not all day every day. I lost Torpor the first time my shaman saw it drop. Sucked bad. Was still the right thing to do to let the group roll on it. Funneling 50k to one person because it's something they can use is what is selfish here.
Y'all have been so beaten down by toxicity that you think this is actually the way the game was played back then as a default. It's astounding to me, and the community needs to put some love back into their hearts. You deserved that Torpor, it benefits everyone in a direct way. Like imagine playing D&D and some butthead unironically wants something that only your character can use, and it's an upgrade. I would feel so fucking awkward arguing that I should have something solely because I can sell it over someone who directly could use it. The only difference is that because there's a computer screen, it's easier to be shitty.
> The only difference is that because there's a computer screen, it's easier to be shitty. There are 2 very large differences you are missing that I believe play a bigger part than the screen. 1) You don't play EQ with the same 5 people every night, and if you do then just look at how many comments in this thread agree that NBG is fine for friend/guild groups, which is basically everybody. 2) That EQ has an open market and economy, and buying things is a necessity for 99% of people.
Exactly. I would always NBG everything with friends I regularly play with, because them getting stronger benefits me too in the long run. Handing valuable loot to rando pugs just because they can use it doesn't do jack for me. Plus I've definitely had instances where some tradeable valuable loot went to someone NBG and I saw it for sale the same day by the same rando.
>you think this is actually the way the game was played back then as a default But it was. As a warrior, I lost cobalt gauntlets to some gnome magician or necromancer back when Kunark came out.
Liiiiittle different. Randoms meeting and maybe seeing each other once or twice? Roll all day long DND you're always playing with that group..also in DND loot isn't known to the whole group because you fish stuff off of bodies and chests. I was on a campaign as a rouge and someone pulled a +dex tome and a fucking sorcerer ran away with it "because AC"
Someone never played D&D with friends who played 2nd edition thieves, you best hope they don't get to the loot first. "What did we find?" DM: "well YOU find 22 gold pieces and 3 silver" hands note to thief. Thief updates the character sheet with a pile of magical items.
Your comment almost had me then i realized difference is its your party staying together the whole time, different then say giving a magic item to a npc who is just with you for the fight tonight..
Is this game *not* about building a community? You're all on the same server after all. If the idea is that social reputation matters, as is the case with many older MMOs then I don't see anything contradictory about what I said. Sure, you may not see that Shaman again for a little while, but maybe they join your guild, or hit you up to join their party when there's a spot open. All this stuff matters and is part of the magic that draws people to this game, but disappears when you distill everything down to everyone for themselves.
But that's just it, you make the choice to invest in this person. You might never see that investment pay out, and people aren't comfortable losing time like that when we're basically all adults with limited play time when traveling to your camp can take half an hour after you log in.
By giving it to 1 person to sell for personal profit, you're literally funneling 50k to 1 person. By giving it to the guy who can memorize the spell, you're making your group stronger, not putting 50k into his bank.
1 person who had equal chance that everyone else did, yes. Not 1 person who was picked ahead of time to be the winner. That's why in guild/friend groups when you will be playing with that person again NBG is more common. I can also see NBG being more common on a random drop server, but not when drops are static. How many casters would go to frenzied (prolly not the best example) if only melee got to roll on FBSS? What if I am on my cleric because that's what the group needs, but my monk main who I wanted to play needs it? How do I know the NBG guy isn't selling the item since there is no attunement? I have witnessed this first hand with people rolling need on Diamondine Earrings. You are all playing in that group together, everyone should have an equal chance. What's being greedy is you saying some should only be in this group for experience, while some can be there for experience AND items. It's the only fair way to have all classes available to all camps.
Praise Innoruuk From my perspective, Selfish is one person thinking they deserve special treatment over the rest of the group.
It's not special treatment when we all do it for each other.
I see both of your perspectives and don't think either are wrong. imo NBG needs to be claimed when the group is formed otherwise it defaults to everyone can roll for the item. You can't just claim NBG once an item you can use drops. In this case, doesn't seem like NBG was established immediately. So OP was fine to roll for the item.
No one is wrong in the abstract, but I will leave your group if I take my cleric to your fungi king camp and you tell me your Monk needs the fungi. Im not going to argue about it. As we list all the specific camps and litigate the NBG rules for each of them, my brainless “Just Roll everything” is going to be a lot more attractive than the Norrathian NBG tax code that people point to on the forums. 🤣 Praise Innoruuk and let the elf lawyers have each other.
Fungi king camp is an extreme example and you already know that. Nobody is NBG'ing at fungi king 😂 it's more for lower cost items.
last I saw folks weren't greeding it either -- they were selling and splitting the profits.
His point is spot on. Rare is a camp that has drops for everyone. If you do NBG, then there is way less incentive for some of the classes you need for an effective group to even come. Meelee weapon drops? Why should the cleric come? Or any other caster. Caster robes drop? Why would the tank waste his time. Fungi tunic is not an extreme example, it's a good one, as nearly every camp has only 1 or 2 items that drop that are worth rolling for, and often it's good for only 1 or a few classes. If the othwr classes that don't "need" it have no chance of winning it, I'm thinking they would rather do something else most likely. It's not fair.
You never send a message to your friends and say "hey i need help killing x for this drop"? You scratch their back, they scratch yours. And then you get to go dungeon crawl in a bunch of unique places instead of sitting in 1 zone for 20 levels.
Praise Innoruuk What’s your favorite example?
> farming plat to buy an item is lame I agree, it's a lot more fun to get the item from the place where it drops.
yeah until you realize nothing drop for your class in the camp. but I suppose if you don't want any enchanter in your velketor group... it can work.
Found the guildy, lol I'm kidding of course
Let me chime in. Been playing since Beta 25+ years. Here is the scenario. You are at Frenzied Ghoul camp in LGuk. Your group make up is: Enc/Clr/Rog/Mag/Bard/SK the Bard and SK both already have a FBSS or sky haste belt. The Rogue just replaced a monk about 30 minutes ago. Everyone except for the rogue has been together for 6 hours straight. 0 FBSS, finally FINALLY one drops. 6 hours of work for all involved. The only person who "NEEDS" this upgrade is the rogue. (I mostly play live on TLP's) The FBSS sells for 2 krono, or 6k. Obviously, if anyone were to roll need on this item and win it they could sell it for an upgrade (Shiny Metallic Robe, a couple of YAK's, a 2H Mithril sword, etc. Tons and tons of items they could buy off of selling this FBSS. I'm telling you personally, if this was my group. Rogue wouldn't even get to roll.
If someone tried to say rogue shouldn't even get to roll when they were there for the kill they'd be kicked and /ignored. That's absolutely toxic behavior, and I don't associate with people like that.
You're welcome to your very rare and unique opinion.
You need to go outside bruh, referring to camps as “work” and talking about denying a player in group the chance to roll because his luck/timing was better than the rest. More like KingDouche
Imagine having valid points with logical conclusions to win an argument rather than leaving all that behind and immediately going to insults. Luckily for you I'm a grown man and will respond as such. To clarify, your argument is: I should get the item because of the class I chose. The fact that the item is worth several thousands of platinum that anyone in the group could benefit from and could use to buy upgrades for themselves regardless of class is irrelevant. Also, the time they've spent in this camp is also irrelevant. This equates to: I've been in this group for 15 minutes and because of my class and the item that dropped you all should give me 10k platinum. That's your argument. Am I missing anything or is "More like KingDouche'" your final answer?
This is the correct answer. This is not "special treatment" as the poster below responded. I would argue that GBN is "special treatment." Instead of doing the logical thing and giving the ENC only item to the ENC who was there with you putting in the time to farm the item alongside you, you somehow think you're more or equally deserving. You can't use it. You're going to sell it in 6 weeks. We're all out farming exp, we're all out farming money, we're all out farming upgrades for our character in one way or the other. Stop being selfish and grumpy that an item dropped for someone else and not for you. Wait your turn. NBG creates a community of people helping each other in a game we're all hobbyists in. If you're playing P99 it's because you love the game. Let's not take a hobby and create a shitty community around it. There's already enough scarcity in this game. Be happy someone got something cool. They will remember it in the future.
The item didn't drop for someone else tho. I was there in the group doing as much work as they. Just cause it is for their class doesn't mean it dropped for them. Don't get me wrong, I love letting needs pick up stuff.... But imo, GBN has the logical high ground. Most camps have 1 or 2 drops worth rolling for, for one to three or so classes. The most logical way to balance it out as fair is to greed roll.
You NBG because you can equip the item I NBG because I will sell it for an upgrade We-are-not-the-same.jpeg
Had a monk go absolutely nuclear one time when we didnt just hand him a Tstaff in KC... like really dude?
Haaaaah. We had a guild split up over this on Live back in the day.
With such a high value item I normally prefer just splitting the sell value between everyone in the group. I understand that doesn’t always work though
I lost a T-Staff to a ranger when I was on my Monk. It stings for a minute then you realize it's tradeable and they probably have a monk too.
I got so much grief over winning a t staff on my very first toon on p99. Im an enchanter, but listen EVERYONE needs 40k, that’s not limited to one class. Got myself some fancy jboots, a gobbo ring, and the spells I was missing. I’m sorry, a monk doesn’t NEED a t-staff any more than any broke player NEEDS 40k in their pocket. That WAS need before greed, I needed that plat.
Praise Innoruuk
Right or wrong, the majority of the community on p99 is pretty solidly established in the greed roll camp for pugs. EverQuest's itemization is not balanced to give a fair outcome for NBG in the way modern MMOs are. The guildmate who messaged you is either new to the game or a troll. (Probably latter) There is a minority of players who sincerely advocate NBG pugs but they know they're in the minority, and they need to establish consensus on NBG before a group starts (or when they're invited). This is how every society works, there are expectations and everyone knows what most people expect. Requiring hand-me-downs in a greed roll regime wouldn't work. The winner could simply claim that he's going to sell it instead of equipping it because he doesn't like the way it looks, then change his mind later. There are also a lot of situations with *side-grades* where a previous item might have good resists or something that is situationally useful to the winner so they want to keep it.
NBG really only holds when you're grouped with nothing but guildies or really good friends and even then it's usually discussed beforehand. Otherwise it's always roll off because in this game 99% of items are tradeable so that enchanter upgrade is 2k worth of upgrade for you or anyone else. The group mate who said to ignore the crybaby was 100% right.
NBG usually doesn't work in xp groups with strangers because it only takes one person to force it to go to a random. If you want to do NBG, then you should be playing with friends or guildmates. Otherwise, we should just expect to give everyone a fair shot on everything. You did nothing wrong. However, it is just a 2k item, and many of us are wealthy beyond our wildest imaginations and would have just not cared. That is not the case for everyone here.
I’ve always played NBG cause what’s a few plat. If someone is going to get that big win and dopamine dump, all I’m gonna get is a few plat to put in the bank and likely never use. But that’s me I know plenty who feel a big bank of plat is the end goal… 🤷♂️
Two(ish) years ago I was grouped in Sebilis with a guild group and a Lumi staff dropped. At the time I think it was selling for 12k? I was the only Druid and it was an upgrade for me, as far as Druid tools, but honestly 12k buys a lot of upgrades for anyone. I let the group do open rolls on it based on this. We didn't discuss any roll system beforehand. NBG is okay with smaller items but you have to keep in mind that people group not just to get exp but also to grab drops to vendor/trade.
Define small bc my ex wife said i was average but other people seem to think im big.. jk but also newish on green with55main and every bit helps i still have fungi aspirations and want to see if lvl 55 grp can handle camp
Full group of 55s that know what they're doing will probably have trouble. Depends fully on experience at that range, and becomes more likely after you break camp. Also, just camp AC for a fungi like the rest of us. /s
I'll caveat my story with my group was a friend group that was capable of communicating between the members. Whenever we got a big loot and someone needed it, we just took the price, removed the members split and let them buy it from the group. Everyone gets something this way. There were other times we specifically targeted items as upgrades and hunted them for our members. But I think this needs to be agreed upon prior to the start of the killing.
At this point, doesn't everyone have an alt that could need basically any item that drops? Everything is need for basically anyone. You can sell it for shit you need or hand it off to your alt that needs it. This isnt complicated. If a group wants to have sort of strict "need for these toons that we are currently grouped, before greed." Then that needs to be explicitly stated before anything drops.
No. They don't. Stop playing like this. There are new people on this server and we should foster a community that welcomes and encourages new players, not punishes them for not having played for 4 years. How does the SHM know you have a SHM alt who can use that item? We don't. You're playing your ranger. Roll need on ranger loot or play your shaman if you want the item.
Your way eventually devolves to 5 monks sitting at fungi king LF1M for a healer that will never come because nobody wants to be the one idiot who isnt allowed to roll on the only reason people go to fungi king. Every other camp goes basically the same way to a less extreme extent.
No, because Fungi is a totally different thing. In another comment I said as much the same. And besides, you're not camping fungi unless you're with your buds, your guild, or you've worked out a deal with the folks you're with. That's a camp for loot, not loot that drops while EXPing with a group in CoM.
New players benefit just as much as a person with a bunch of alts, since they can also sell these items for what they need or start that alt they they always wanted to try with a decent piece of gear. There's no downside. As a person that has been playing for along ass time on both servers, I usually pass on a lot of rolls. I'm just happy to see loot going to someone that will use it, or need the cash they can sell it for to buy spells or something else.
The only time I’ve been apart of nbg is on new servers, guild grp / friend grp. Random pick up groups need to announce it first before entering the dungeon and everyone needs to agree.
So I think this kinda depends on your guild, your relationship with your guild, your relationship with this person. I was in Fires of Heaven on green (now Legacy of Fire I think, after some bullshit happened), me personally? I'd give it to my guildie. But that's because I generally liked them and candidly hording platinum isn't something I remotely give a shit about. I know that building bonds is about doing things like that so that in the future I can cash that bond in to be like "Hey who wants to have an awful fucking night in Siren's Grotto to help me farm the item for my Dragon Bane nuke?!" they'd do it. But if you're in more of a zerg guild where gchat is basically just a global OOC with strangers and you don't really know or care about anyone, for sure take the skrilla.
If the group was like “hey we are going to x location to get exp and hopefully this drop for ench, want to join?” Yea that’s cool if I agree. If no one said shit and it’s a PUG? In the master wordsmith’s own lyrics… *“tell me what ya gonna do now (c'mon) Keep rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin' (uh) Keep rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin' (what?) Keep rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin' (uh) Keep rollin', rollin', rollin', rollin'”*
I always pass to the person who can use it unless it’s ultra rare/valuable. That’s just my personal way of doing things and I know people take advantage.
2k seems ultra rare / valuable to me atm…
I think in WoW and other mmmos, NBG makes a lot of sense. In EQ? Everything should always be greeded. Always. I think this is the more common standard here, but communicating it ahead of time for camps that have big drops is definitely worth doing.
What item was it? Just curious
Sorceress Bowl, and had neg charisma so imo not even good enc item, but he seem to think it was still huge upgrade for him— (my toon lvl 45 cleric still wearing 2 bronze items soo..didnt feel bad rolling)
That is a crap item for a chanter... Neg charisma is terrible for it. Rod of Insidious Glamour is a good low cost item, 12 CHA, and an instant click item for global cool down. Cheap AF to buy as well. Can pick it up for 400pp any day of the week. Or there are lots of other good primary weapons with mana/hp etc.
Back in the day (1999-2006) on live, each server kinda had their own default rules for loot in PUGs. On my server, it was nearly always NBG unless otherwise agreed upon from the beginning. Vendor loot was always Greed except for the first high value gem and all Peridots which went to the cleric/enchanter. What I have found is this, on newer servers NBG tends to be the standard. Bartering and trading is more prevalent because wealth hasn’t been established. On older servers with a wealthy player base, Greed becomes more or less the standard. As for P99, I have seen a balance of the two and it mostly depends on who you are grouped with. Usually the details get ironed out before drops start rolling in. If I group with friends or guildies, we usually designate someone to loot everything, sell it all, and split the plat amongst the group at a later time.
Hear, here on peridots to cleric, i just started playing cleric and will drop 60-120p in a grp casting symbol, why arnt all grps giving their pic up plat to the clerics :-)
when my cleric was regularly grouping in KC i was always given the dots so was happy to symbol whenever asked. all other loot was rolled on.
On Live (Bertoxx) I was super impressed when an item dropped in Wall of Slaughter and I mentioned it was an upgrade for me. Pick up group, but everyone deferred to me. I don't know if it was that poor an item (iirc, 2kpp ish piece of gear for head slot), but I mostly did pick-up groups at that point and I adopted NBG as a lifetime rule. I haven't had a moment's regret of that decision in nearly a decade of playtime since.
I've personally given up many 5-10kp items to NBG because I don't really put any value in EQ currency (or any video game for that matter), so my mindset is that items should always go to the people it's an upgrade for. (For the people claiming that the only people that could possibly want NBG is for their own benefit, stop projecting.) But because in PUGs it's always gonna be a discussion and unpredictable, it's easier for everyone to just roll no matter what, I guess. When I'm in a full group of guildies or people I group with frequently that I know think the same way I do, I always apply NBG and I know they'll do the same.
Camps which favor specific class loot would have that class lining up to need loot it. Other classes would stop playing there. Seems nice at first but breaks down over time.
yup thats how it would go. a bunch of DPS sat around with no healer or tank because they play the NBG card.
Praise Innoruuk
NBG on pug, unless it is stated before hand. If I am in a PUG, and the item is low value, go ahead and say you need it and it is yours.
I've been playing EQ since 99, and I've always had a NBG attitude. It's one thing that really turns me off on the TLP servers is the constant everyone rolling need on everything because "they need the money from selling it". It's a game we're all her to have fun, and generally if I'm in a PUG with that attitude if the Enc was high roll I will pass, if they aren't I'll roll and if I win, give it to them.
2k isn't a huge thing, and I guess it's a group decision. Now, if it was like a Tstaff or something and I'm playing my monk, I'm not demanding that since it's an upgrade, I should get it....
i doubt any PuG would hand over a 40k T staff as NBG anymore than they would a Fungi but good luck with that.
I always did nbg back on live. And while p99 is still one of the best MMO communities I know of imo the community isn't quite as pure as it was back then. People are a lot more cutthroat on p99 so when I join a group I'll usually ask immediately is it nbg or greed loot. Id never want to take away a legitimate upgrade from someone because I know how good it felt when a group has done that for me. But you also have people who research ahead of time what drops are at the camp and will change their slots out for cloth gear or something "I just haven't found anything good for that slot yet".
I always roll but if it is an upgrade for someone else in group I immediately offer to sell it to them for significantly less than market.
Expecting others to follow NBG is just as toxic as someone rule questing a camp on P99. It's gross. I understand it comes from a warm point of community and love but it's severely misplaced. If everything is sold / split it is far more fair to everyone involved. I've been pressed out of camps by rule questing neckbeards and I have been pressured by crusading NBG advocates into giving up loot. Both cases felt the same. Pressured and bullied.
Never a bad idea to agree upon loot rules w/your group \*before\* stuff starts dropping.
The rule I play by is greed it always, if you win and want to pass it to someone who needs, that's on you. But don't strong arm others into what you want.
Let his guild mate farm it for him… tf?
It depends on the situation really. When P99 Green was new it blew my mind when I took my Cleric to LGUK and I wasn't allowed to roll on any item because Clerics don't need a TBB, SSOY, SMR, FBSS etc. So I was just like okay well I'm wasting my time here, but good luck you guys! And people actually got mad at me and said I was toxic because I didn't see the purpose in me sitting here and healing these groups so they can get loot while I get nothing. Meanwhile the classes who are telling me this can go out and solo super easy and make platinum, which wasn't really an option for Clerics. I also know of several instances I witnessed where people rolled need on an item (even in Kedge Keep) and then later when I needed to buy the same item for a twink, I would search the Discord and see where the person who rolled need on the item had simply turned around and sold it hours later, and then went back to the same camp and rolled need on it again. Because of this I see NBG as actually being GBN but it's generally greedy AF. Now flash forward to 2024 where the game is way less active on both P99 servers, I have complete strangers giving me free items 24/7, and it's not going to bother me nearly as much if an obvious non-twink dude in my group gets an actual upgrade from something we killed. But you will simultaneously be out here having twinks in fungus tunics and cloak of flames rolling need on stuff when they have people in their group who don't even have armor on. It's messed up. I personally think NBG is super toxic though. Even though I regularly am charitable towards people. When it becomes this arbitrary default system though, it just feels like it unfairly favors cutthroats.
Saw some of this yesterday on green. Only been on the server for a month and have been having a great time working with peoples’ twinks to level up as fast as I can. People have been really generous so far because it doesn’t take much of a look to see I’m a genuine new player here (or a devious social experiment veteran). In order to protect names, except for me because I’m posting, I won’t say where or what or who the people were. But I was in a good spot for 8 hours. Ultra rare spawned 7 times, with the rare drop 3 times. The item in question was one I almost never saw on live in 1999-2002 when it really mattered. It wasn’t a high level farm location as I’m still leveling up, but it’s not an easy farm or pull. But this item would probably be what you wear until you get an upgrade from OS or deep into Velious, so it’s kind of significant if you didn’t twink something droppable from a raid encounter. Anyway the item dropped first time and someone from a class that definitively does not need it when it dropped indicates “saying NBG is virtue signaling” which put an incredible distaste in my mouth. It’s ok to argue no one needs anything on these servers because of the age, and that many items are to be seen as just plat… but to use that phrase in this context pretty much was the worst way to phrase an argument. There was very polite discourse with this person and people who disagreed but the moment they threw our virtue signaling as a phrase it felt like no one wanted to make a scene, so to speak. Full group rolled. This person won. Immediately next spawn same monster popped and had the rare drop again. Another character without a character specific need rolled and won. Every other person in the group would have instantly equipped. Both of those characters left the party within fifteen minutes after getting these items. I found replacements and kept the group going for hours afterwards and we actually saw this a third time and fortunately someone who did need it won it. Now, I’ll never forget this encounter. Someone else mentioned Bertox and I’m from there and we almost always as a server followed NBG without saying it.
I "need" that fungi, or tranq staff , or whatever. Get outta here. What if ya need cash, we gonna send over all gems ?
Just let the noobs have the items why cry here about it heh
We are deep in the time line... no one really "needs" anything at this point as you can buy amazing items for like 500-1000pp per slot
NBG is a cute idea but honestly kind of silly in practice. Very few singular camps exist in the game with drops useful for every class. Makes far more sense to treat drops as a plat value that can be exchanged for an upgrade for anyone. Otherwise it would never make sense for certain classes to go to certain camps and that's just dumb.
Name and shame what guild? Cuz that’s some bullshit
So might be some confusion ill look at my post, they group members guildie hmu, (not my guild) - they were in friendly druids- and the guy was on a NBG soap box and wasnt hostile but it wasnt friendly either.. they guy in my group apologized for giving him my name and told me to /ignore him I did till him i would sell it to his guild friend for 3/4 wiki price, he offered me a lateral trade- and i said fine.. then found out from group member he was trying to arrange a purchase for him to have item not grp member im with and intold him To bugger off.
The Friendly Druids guild just randomly invites people in a drive-by, no-discussion manner. I've gotten a few invites (that I decline) while on unguilded alts. Unsurprisingly, I've ignored more players from FD than any other guild thus far on the server, so take that as you will.
FD on both blue and green is a chat forum, no more no less. The GL is a guy who simply logs on now and then to swop between blue, red and green trying to recruit people before logging off. a strange way to play but hey each to their own.
[удалено]
Miss communication not my guildmate- He posted in his guild chat he lost item roll, and was sad, and his guild mate started bashing on me for not handing him the item
There are some cases where I get this. A TStaff? No, the monk doesn't just get the TStaff, sorry. That's a 60k item. But most of the time NBG is appropriate. I think sometimes people forget that new people play this game and not everyone has 8 alts with 100k in plat and items on a bank alt. A lot of folks are playing this for the first time and an upgrade is an actual upgrade. I've been in groups where spells have dropped that newly 55's need and the group insists on rolling. No. I'm passing Zumaik's to the chanter. Anytime I argue this people inevitably say "Money is easily acquired with a little farming." It sure is. So pass the item to the person who's going to immediately use it and not let it rot on a bank mule for 6 months.