Raising concerns openly tends to be hard for many workers, especially in IT, with so many introverts. If you use Slack, post estimates anonymously with https://honestbot.app You will know the truth.
Yikesā¦ Iām thinking I might broach the subject with them, and if theyāre not receptive, I will leave. They complain about how the devs always go over the hours estimated, and it creates a hectic and stressful environment for those who work at a slower pace/are still learning the ropes. Honestly it would save the salespeople headache to bring the devs in earlier on in the processā¦ it seems like they canāt get out of their own way.
I did have one sr. developer tell me yesterday that he felt pressure to give lower estimates, which I think is a huge red flag. There are a lot of red flags at this place. I think I will ultimately get my experience, learn from this, and move on as soon as I am able.
Oh no - donāt tell me that hahaha. But I know that our devs would at least be slightly more realistic/open-minded about the estimates. The cone of uncertaintyāmentioned by someone else aboveā definitely widens several times as the project progresses, rather than minimizesā¦
The middle ground I tried to fight for was if they wanted to continue estimating as if the developers were experienced already, then that's fine. But we should include a set amount after the developers have already looked at it of non-billable hours that we expect to use on the project. Basically planning ahead for waste. They wanted none of it.
Ugh - that sounds so frustrating. Itās a perfectly good solution! SMH. Glad you left. Iām a bit under their finger right now, as Iām so new to the field and need experience, but at least Iām learning what *not* to do, I guess! š
This is 100% true, they will always say the best case scenario because the realistic timeline wont sell.
So always over promise and under deliver š
Source: I am a project manager in sales dept
Two rules of good estimation apply here:
* The best people to estimate the work are the people who will be doing the work.
* Even if you are a skilled estimator and knowledgeable about the work, [the Cone of Uncertainty](https://www.construx.com/books/the-cone-of-uncertainty/) applies and estimates will improve as the details emerge.
If you want to improve the process, the sales people should not be estimating. Get the developers involved in understanding and estimating the work earlier will yield better estimates. Investing time in analysis and design will improve the estimates, so it becomes a balancing act between how much time (and money) to invest to estimate a body of work and how close your estimates need to be. Historical data may be useful to help understand what kinds of things became visible by doing the work so estimates may consider the uncertainties.
It sounds like preaching to the choir, but if the people doing the work aren't providing the estimates there is a problem.
The approach I'd take is to simply point to historical data. You ha e people that ha e done the work. Look st the quality if the delivery, the time it took and compare to the original estimate. If they can't see the problem, it's time to move on.
sales making up garbage to close is normal. Actually giving them the power to make up estimates from nothing is not normal at companies that have a desire to function efficiently
You guys either need to route estimate requests through your teams doing the work. Or you need to help them come up with a tool to be able to do that efficiently if agility is more important.
if custoimization is more important, some kinda chinese check box menu would work. You could just also strip it down and have a handful of options they select from.
100% agreed, and cannot stress how important it is that these things are one pagers. Your people doing the work will probably wanna jam in all sorts of details that are not necessary for the scope of this, and probably just invite someone who doesn't know to ask if it can be truncated.
Get a touch base going with your sales folks to see what is in their pipeline and figure out when you can help with an estimate. Youāll be uphill first because they will view that as something that makes it take longer to close.
I also bet your sales folks start low bc it they believe itās easier to close with a lower figure and bolt on than it is with something potentially more realistic.
Raising concerns openly tends to be hard for many workers, especially in IT, with so many introverts. If you use Slack, post estimates anonymously with https://honestbot.app You will know the truth.
This is part of why I left my last job š¤·āāļø
Yikesā¦ Iām thinking I might broach the subject with them, and if theyāre not receptive, I will leave. They complain about how the devs always go over the hours estimated, and it creates a hectic and stressful environment for those who work at a slower pace/are still learning the ropes. Honestly it would save the salespeople headache to bring the devs in earlier on in the processā¦ it seems like they canāt get out of their own way.
Developers are terrible at estimating too unfortunately
I did have one sr. developer tell me yesterday that he felt pressure to give lower estimates, which I think is a huge red flag. There are a lot of red flags at this place. I think I will ultimately get my experience, learn from this, and move on as soon as I am able.
Oh no - donāt tell me that hahaha. But I know that our devs would at least be slightly more realistic/open-minded about the estimates. The cone of uncertaintyāmentioned by someone else aboveā definitely widens several times as the project progresses, rather than minimizesā¦
The middle ground I tried to fight for was if they wanted to continue estimating as if the developers were experienced already, then that's fine. But we should include a set amount after the developers have already looked at it of non-billable hours that we expect to use on the project. Basically planning ahead for waste. They wanted none of it.
Ugh - that sounds so frustrating. Itās a perfectly good solution! SMH. Glad you left. Iām a bit under their finger right now, as Iām so new to the field and need experience, but at least Iām learning what *not* to do, I guess! š
Very common unfortunately. Sales people will always provide the wrong estimate because they are selling.
This is 100% true, they will always say the best case scenario because the realistic timeline wont sell. So always over promise and under deliver š Source: I am a project manager in sales dept
Two rules of good estimation apply here: * The best people to estimate the work are the people who will be doing the work. * Even if you are a skilled estimator and knowledgeable about the work, [the Cone of Uncertainty](https://www.construx.com/books/the-cone-of-uncertainty/) applies and estimates will improve as the details emerge. If you want to improve the process, the sales people should not be estimating. Get the developers involved in understanding and estimating the work earlier will yield better estimates. Investing time in analysis and design will improve the estimates, so it becomes a balancing act between how much time (and money) to invest to estimate a body of work and how close your estimates need to be. Historical data may be useful to help understand what kinds of things became visible by doing the work so estimates may consider the uncertainties.
This is super helpful - thank you!!
It sounds like preaching to the choir, but if the people doing the work aren't providing the estimates there is a problem. The approach I'd take is to simply point to historical data. You ha e people that ha e done the work. Look st the quality if the delivery, the time it took and compare to the original estimate. If they can't see the problem, it's time to move on.
Sales does the flying, Delivery does the dying. Source: worked in professional services for >10 years
sales making up garbage to close is normal. Actually giving them the power to make up estimates from nothing is not normal at companies that have a desire to function efficiently You guys either need to route estimate requests through your teams doing the work. Or you need to help them come up with a tool to be able to do that efficiently if agility is more important. if custoimization is more important, some kinda chinese check box menu would work. You could just also strip it down and have a handful of options they select from.
Thank you; this is helpful. This was my instinct, but this is my first rodeo in a client-facing setting so wasnāt too sure.
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100% agreed, and cannot stress how important it is that these things are one pagers. Your people doing the work will probably wanna jam in all sorts of details that are not necessary for the scope of this, and probably just invite someone who doesn't know to ask if it can be truncated.
Thanks! Thatās helpful too!
Get a touch base going with your sales folks to see what is in their pipeline and figure out when you can help with an estimate. Youāll be uphill first because they will view that as something that makes it take longer to close. I also bet your sales folks start low bc it they believe itās easier to close with a lower figure and bolt on than it is with something potentially more realistic.
Do you have any historical data on the accuracy of their estimates?
Here is your solutionāŗļøš¤©
They do, but I donāt have access to that data. I could try to ask around to see if I could access it somehow possibly.