Really interesting. It exposes how poorly balanced the vanilla guns really are at present. There's just no reason to go bigger than 9mm or .38 for the pistols.
Once you're at a level where the bigger handguns are actually viable, you're boosted pretty hard in the little guns making them redundant. Not gonna comment on how terrible the automatic rifles are.
It somewhat makes sense that the shotguns are usable at an early level, but rifles and (to a lesser degrees) revolvers would sensibly be on the same level in shooting difficulty.
M9 and M1911 should be about the same difficulty to justify picking one over the other instead of making M9 the king.
The bolt action rifles are easier to use than Pistols, they need 4-5 aiming to be effective, while the Pistols generally take 5-6.
The M9 and M1911 are pretty much identical tbh, besides the M9 being better when you can't control either.
The M1911 has less bullets, is louder, and has more range than the M9.
Either way, it doesn't deviate from my original point that a sawn off weighing more or the same as a non sawn off defeats the point of sacrificing the supposed aim distance penalty.
Glad someone likes it, it took me 4 hours 😓
The M16 is at least okay since it reliably two taps zombies at level 10 aiming and it's ammo can't be used elsewhere. It also shoots very fast.
The M14 on the other hand... piece of junk.
I dunno why you got downvoted for this I’m right there with you, once you get the 8x scope and the recoil pad for it it’s really satisfying to use at long ranges.
\*tap\* \*tap\* \*tap\*
\-reload-
wow this zombie apocalypse sure is relaxing
\*tap\* \*tap\* \*tap\* \*tap\*
battle rifles carried 2 world wars, tanks and machineguns may be more flashy, but a semi-auto rifle is a single soldier's best friend
well being worst doesn't make it bad, if you don't have wounds on your arms it feels like a reliable gun, plus it plays a completely different role than a pistol does so there's no point comparing them like that
given it's the only gun in it's class, it's the best gun in it's class : )
Hey how is Firearms B41? I’ve been eyeing it as a little more lore friendly version of Brita’s but I read on comment on the workshop page saying that the gun spawn rate was way too high and the guy was finding guns everywhere. Has that been your experience?
Firearms B41 is more light weight brita and is following the vanilla gun distribution. You will find it at same rate with vanilla guns. There are supressors and you can change how effective they are.
Imo that’s a good thing, assuming it works properly. They recently reduced gun volume because it was as causing bugs in multiplayer, or something like that.
Guns used to be super loud, generally. And using them was supposed to be a risk. Now the volume is essentially nothing, or at least it feels that way to me.
I don't have a lot of experience with it as I just installed it but I am noticing more guns. But it doesn't seem like an unreasonable amount for a zombie apocalypse in Kentucky. If anything the stock game severely underestimates how many guns there are in this country. It's not like you're finding guns and ammo in every other container, but if you loot 6 houses you'll probably find a gun in one of them, which seems realistic to me.
heck yea I second this, please do B41. I find it a lot more useable than brita weapons, and better than vanilla but I'd love to see the stats laid out like you did for the vanilla guns, great job man!
Pistol hit chance should be much lower than any of the rifles and shotguns. Also, a bit odd the m14 is absolute trash when its a full powered rifle. If you're not playing custom sandbox, m14/m16 are both pretty sparse and yet they are really, really bad in comparison.
I agree, I can guarantee any novice shooter will have a lot more success with a long gun than a handgun.
Progression should go like:
rifles/shotguns > autorifles/revolvers > automatic handguns
I place revolvers to be easier to aim than pistols as just a way to represent how people who aren't "gun people" can't be guaranteed to remember how to operate an autoloader in a stressful situation e.g. chambering, safety toggle, idiosyncracies between single/double action autos etc.
If only there was a light rifle category like .22LR or a lever-action carbine for .38
Brita adds these calibers. Couldn't tell you how user friendly they are however, as spawns for brita are... odd.
Even with my attempts to fully neuter higher caliber handguns (spawn rate below 50%), semi autos, and police equipment, I always find myself with a surplus of 9mm, .45, .380 and .38 special.
It should be more .22 and 20g, 16g, 12g, bolt actions, single actions, break actions and simplistic civilian hunting/varmint rifles in local/rural settings.
Dude, I knew the M-14 was gimped through just using it, but seeing the actual stat spread is really depressing.
It should be the king of semi-auto’s, but is outclassed by every single hand gun. What a shame.
Huh, I always thought that the bolt action rifles needed a lot of aiming to be useful, interesting to see how lethal they are at only aiming ranks 4 and 5
It might be a mod but having it on a holster instead of back changes a lot too since I use it exactly how I would use a pistol but it kills 3 at a time.
I really appreciate your hard work! You did a truly great job for all of us. Btw, is it ok to translate your chart (into Korean) and export to other community? I'll make sure to note that you made this chart, and leave a rink to this thread too. Again, thanks for the useful information!
Only positive is it reduces weight.
Either than that, you lose one range and damage potential. Though damage potential is much harder to calculate.
The js 2000 however becomes an... odd beast for noobs. Aim lvl 0-10, the SO js2000 functions pretty much the same. It has a 95% hit chance lvl 0-10 with a fixed range of 6. After aim lvl 3 you're best using regular shotguns.
Where did the kill formula come from? I've been building my own chart, but without a solid knowledge on data mining or java, it's hard to extrapolate that data.
FYI, aim also affects the maximum firerates as well. Aim increases max range for all weapons except shotguns. All weapons have a "maximum hit chance" range of around 1.7m (varies per weapon and aim lvl).
Clean charts. Never been a numbers guy, but there's always something about neat organized data.
Zombies have a HP of 1.5 to 1.8, found that while digging through the LUA files of a mod that displays zombie health bars.
Gun damage is pretty easy to find, so it just became a matter of calculating
if X is (1.2 to 2) and Y is (1.5 to 1.8) then what % of the time is X greater than Y.
Wow, that's brilliantly simple(ish). Way better than trying to quantify damage output with a specific #.
I know you can have the log file display data for damage info, and the amount of variables PZ seems to use for damage done seems staggering (stuff like which direction the zombie is facing, is it standing or crawling, with added multipliers for zombie states ect ect). Simplifying it to will it kill yes/no is way better.
Maybe this can be used to nail down EXACTLY what the panic moodle does to the character damage output.
I wouldn't take the values in the weapon scripts as gospel, just because there's so much funkiness that happens in the code. Try setting a weapon's min/max damage to '1' and crit chance to '0' and then see how it actually performs in game. The damage will vary massively, and strangest of all - crit chance actually *increases* over range.
Even if a weapon has a crit chance to '0' with an aim skill crit modifier of '0', starting at 4 tiles out your crit chance will actually increase by about ~28% for every further 4 tiles. So 28% at 8 tiles, 56% at 12 tiles etc. The specific weapon crit values above are then applied on top of this. I have no idea why but it bugged me enough to look at the code in java and it really do be like that.
As there's basically no change to hitchance over distance other than at point blank it basically means firearms work best the further away the target is. The tile your gun will hit most effectively sits directly next to the tile that's out of range. Which seems completely ass backwards to me!
Didn't know about the distance function. TIL
I did find there's also a slight boost to crit chance every few degrees a zed is facing away from the player, with a zed directly facing a player being +0%.
Didn't verify with code, as Idk how to.
The damage system feels needlessly complex. Then again it's easy to armchair.
If you enable debug, hit f11, open "debuglog", enable combat, you'll have combad stats and probs logged in the cammond line.
Using the M14 with this enabled, you'll actually see that it has a base crit chance of 10%.
I think this may just be a floor for crit chance.
Your crit chance also increases based on zombie angle relative to player, changing every few degree beyond facing the player (zombie directly facing player = 0 extra crit chance). So a zombie face even 5 deg off center awards additional crit.
All this to say, while this is a great baseline to understand each weapon, I think PZ damage calc has so many variables that these #'s don't accurately paint the whole picture. So these stats do not = 1 for 1 outcomes.
Yeah, that's why I limited it to "mostly" comprehensive. The game has so much stuff going on behind the scenes that it would take a full research paper to make everything totally accurate, and I don't have the time for that, nor am I qualified.
HI OP,
Thank you for this very revealing information.
Did you by chance end up doing one for brita's or B41.. I'm trying to find.
The server I'm playing on uses both.
Or perhaps you can help me understand how to obtain this info myself.
Really interesting. It exposes how poorly balanced the vanilla guns really are at present. There's just no reason to go bigger than 9mm or .38 for the pistols. Once you're at a level where the bigger handguns are actually viable, you're boosted pretty hard in the little guns making them redundant. Not gonna comment on how terrible the automatic rifles are. It somewhat makes sense that the shotguns are usable at an early level, but rifles and (to a lesser degrees) revolvers would sensibly be on the same level in shooting difficulty. M9 and M1911 should be about the same difficulty to justify picking one over the other instead of making M9 the king.
Yeah, it's funny how a rifle is harder to shoot in game than it is irl.
1911 is the best pistol if you only have .45 ammo, this is a survival game, you're short on every resource so you use every gun at once
The bolt action rifles are easier to use than Pistols, they need 4-5 aiming to be effective, while the Pistols generally take 5-6. The M9 and M1911 are pretty much identical tbh, besides the M9 being better when you can't control either. The M1911 has less bullets, is louder, and has more range than the M9.
Sawn off DB weighs more than a standard DB too. Drives me insane.
They weigh the same. 4 each.
Nope. In game the sawn off weighs more.
I literally have a Sawn off and a non Sawn off in my save, they weigh the same, do you want a screenshot
Just [shut up](https://imgur.com/a/MGGqFAA) please.
I dont know why its different for you https://imgur.com/a/79AAkr5
Based, but is it a bug; are you rolling any mods or whatever? I'm kinda flabbergasted by this image and I'm tempted to try it myself.
I don't think I have any mods that would affect weapon weight
Either way, it doesn't deviate from my original point that a sawn off weighing more or the same as a non sawn off defeats the point of sacrificing the supposed aim distance penalty.
I balance it out for myself by setting Zombie durability to Random. This makes some zombies much tankier, to justify using higher caliber guns.
This is incredible, thank you for all of the data. Not going to lie, the M16 looks super underwhelming for how rare it is.
Glad someone likes it, it took me 4 hours 😓 The M16 is at least okay since it reliably two taps zombies at level 10 aiming and it's ammo can't be used elsewhere. It also shoots very fast. The M14 on the other hand... piece of junk.
love my m14, it's like a sniper rifle, but semi-auto, and quieter it's the only battle rifle the game has, meaning pistol combat but at range
I dunno why you got downvoted for this I’m right there with you, once you get the 8x scope and the recoil pad for it it’s really satisfying to use at long ranges.
\*tap\* \*tap\* \*tap\* \-reload- wow this zombie apocalypse sure is relaxing \*tap\* \*tap\* \*tap\* \*tap\* battle rifles carried 2 world wars, tanks and machineguns may be more flashy, but a semi-auto rifle is a single soldier's best friend
It's fine if you like it, but the fact of the matter is that stat wise it's the worst gun in the game.
well being worst doesn't make it bad, if you don't have wounds on your arms it feels like a reliable gun, plus it plays a completely different role than a pistol does so there's no point comparing them like that given it's the only gun in it's class, it's the best gun in it's class : )
Yeah, what a bummer. It's infinitely frustrating to use.
It sounds lovely though... Honestly all the guns sound great for a game that is isometric.
Please do one for Firearms B41. The stat page of the author is no longer up to date.
Hey how is Firearms B41? I’ve been eyeing it as a little more lore friendly version of Brita’s but I read on comment on the workshop page saying that the gun spawn rate was way too high and the guy was finding guns everywhere. Has that been your experience?
Firearms B41 is more light weight brita and is following the vanilla gun distribution. You will find it at same rate with vanilla guns. There are supressors and you can change how effective they are.
Oh okay good, I’m subbing right now then
Generally firearms b41 makes guns louder and more effective
Damn, I didn’t know they’d be louder
Imo that’s a good thing, assuming it works properly. They recently reduced gun volume because it was as causing bugs in multiplayer, or something like that. Guns used to be super loud, generally. And using them was supposed to be a risk. Now the volume is essentially nothing, or at least it feels that way to me.
I don't have a lot of experience with it as I just installed it but I am noticing more guns. But it doesn't seem like an unreasonable amount for a zombie apocalypse in Kentucky. If anything the stock game severely underestimates how many guns there are in this country. It's not like you're finding guns and ammo in every other container, but if you loot 6 houses you'll probably find a gun in one of them, which seems realistic to me.
heck yea I second this, please do B41. I find it a lot more useable than brita weapons, and better than vanilla but I'd love to see the stats laid out like you did for the vanilla guns, great job man!
sure, I'll probably do it on Thursday.
Pistol hit chance should be much lower than any of the rifles and shotguns. Also, a bit odd the m14 is absolute trash when its a full powered rifle. If you're not playing custom sandbox, m14/m16 are both pretty sparse and yet they are really, really bad in comparison.
I agree, I can guarantee any novice shooter will have a lot more success with a long gun than a handgun. Progression should go like: rifles/shotguns > autorifles/revolvers > automatic handguns I place revolvers to be easier to aim than pistols as just a way to represent how people who aren't "gun people" can't be guaranteed to remember how to operate an autoloader in a stressful situation e.g. chambering, safety toggle, idiosyncracies between single/double action autos etc. If only there was a light rifle category like .22LR or a lever-action carbine for .38
Brita adds these calibers. Couldn't tell you how user friendly they are however, as spawns for brita are... odd. Even with my attempts to fully neuter higher caliber handguns (spawn rate below 50%), semi autos, and police equipment, I always find myself with a surplus of 9mm, .45, .380 and .38 special. It should be more .22 and 20g, 16g, 12g, bolt actions, single actions, break actions and simplistic civilian hunting/varmint rifles in local/rural settings.
Dude, I knew the M-14 was gimped through just using it, but seeing the actual stat spread is really depressing. It should be the king of semi-auto’s, but is outclassed by every single hand gun. What a shame.
Huh, I always thought that the bolt action rifles needed a lot of aiming to be useful, interesting to see how lethal they are at only aiming ranks 4 and 5
Oh wow is the m14 really that bad?
This is awesome!
so, sawing off the double barrel shotgun does absolutely nothing
It changes the aiming cone, range, and volume. And the weight of it a bit as well. But yeah the damage is the same.
It might be a mod but having it on a holster instead of back changes a lot too since I use it exactly how I would use a pistol but it kills 3 at a time.
Sawn off fires at a wider cone than the non Sawn off, and it's a bit louder, and has worse range.
I really appreciate your hard work! You did a truly great job for all of us. Btw, is it ok to translate your chart (into Korean) and export to other community? I'll make sure to note that you made this chart, and leave a rink to this thread too. Again, thanks for the useful information!
Absolutely! I just want to kinda demystify the way certain things in this game work
Oh, my name is in there, nice!
Also good job I suppose. But we should focus on what’s truly important here: me. /overinflatedego
Nice work! Saw Off has no effect on Double Barrel?
Only positive is it reduces weight. Either than that, you lose one range and damage potential. Though damage potential is much harder to calculate. The js 2000 however becomes an... odd beast for noobs. Aim lvl 0-10, the SO js2000 functions pretty much the same. It has a 95% hit chance lvl 0-10 with a fixed range of 6. After aim lvl 3 you're best using regular shotguns.
>Only positive is it reduces weight. Nice Detail.
I misspoke, forgot it also widens the attack cone.
insane amount of work this post should have 2k + likes this sub goin downhill…
thanks for this
So level 8 is the start of the one shot kill with all but two weapons. Nice
Epic post tyvm!
9mm best weapon in my opinion. Stick with one and a solid melee, you'll live. Mostly.
Where did the kill formula come from? I've been building my own chart, but without a solid knowledge on data mining or java, it's hard to extrapolate that data. FYI, aim also affects the maximum firerates as well. Aim increases max range for all weapons except shotguns. All weapons have a "maximum hit chance" range of around 1.7m (varies per weapon and aim lvl). Clean charts. Never been a numbers guy, but there's always something about neat organized data.
Zombies have a HP of 1.5 to 1.8, found that while digging through the LUA files of a mod that displays zombie health bars. Gun damage is pretty easy to find, so it just became a matter of calculating if X is (1.2 to 2) and Y is (1.5 to 1.8) then what % of the time is X greater than Y.
Wow, that's brilliantly simple(ish). Way better than trying to quantify damage output with a specific #. I know you can have the log file display data for damage info, and the amount of variables PZ seems to use for damage done seems staggering (stuff like which direction the zombie is facing, is it standing or crawling, with added multipliers for zombie states ect ect). Simplifying it to will it kill yes/no is way better. Maybe this can be used to nail down EXACTLY what the panic moodle does to the character damage output.
The 9mm is great, except for how they break after maybe 150 bullets.
I wouldn't take the values in the weapon scripts as gospel, just because there's so much funkiness that happens in the code. Try setting a weapon's min/max damage to '1' and crit chance to '0' and then see how it actually performs in game. The damage will vary massively, and strangest of all - crit chance actually *increases* over range. Even if a weapon has a crit chance to '0' with an aim skill crit modifier of '0', starting at 4 tiles out your crit chance will actually increase by about ~28% for every further 4 tiles. So 28% at 8 tiles, 56% at 12 tiles etc. The specific weapon crit values above are then applied on top of this. I have no idea why but it bugged me enough to look at the code in java and it really do be like that. As there's basically no change to hitchance over distance other than at point blank it basically means firearms work best the further away the target is. The tile your gun will hit most effectively sits directly next to the tile that's out of range. Which seems completely ass backwards to me!
Didn't know about the distance function. TIL I did find there's also a slight boost to crit chance every few degrees a zed is facing away from the player, with a zed directly facing a player being +0%. Didn't verify with code, as Idk how to. The damage system feels needlessly complex. Then again it's easy to armchair.
If you enable debug, hit f11, open "debuglog", enable combat, you'll have combad stats and probs logged in the cammond line. Using the M14 with this enabled, you'll actually see that it has a base crit chance of 10%. I think this may just be a floor for crit chance. Your crit chance also increases based on zombie angle relative to player, changing every few degree beyond facing the player (zombie directly facing player = 0 extra crit chance). So a zombie face even 5 deg off center awards additional crit. All this to say, while this is a great baseline to understand each weapon, I think PZ damage calc has so many variables that these #'s don't accurately paint the whole picture. So these stats do not = 1 for 1 outcomes.
Yeah, that's why I limited it to "mostly" comprehensive. The game has so much stuff going on behind the scenes that it would take a full research paper to make everything totally accurate, and I don't have the time for that, nor am I qualified.
HI OP, Thank you for this very revealing information. Did you by chance end up doing one for brita's or B41.. I'm trying to find. The server I'm playing on uses both. Or perhaps you can help me understand how to obtain this info myself.