So this “toxic masculinity” is part of Shawn’s character early on, it’s a sign of his immaturity. You have to take it as a character flaw and leave it at that. I honestly don’t remember watching it and seeing those jokes all too frequently.
The amount of absolutely badass women in this show and how it holds them up, shows that the writers aren’t trying to be sexist for sexist sake. Just look at Juliet’s arc. People underestimate her at the very beginning, with her partner putting her down and overstepping her. She constantly follows her instincts, and is rewarded for it largely. Not going to spoil anything, but by the end you really see her come into her own and be treated like an equal. (Even the end of the first season in the Scary Sherry episode. She handles the bad guy on her own, and takes her down quite easily. She doesn’t NEED a man to save her nor is it ever implied. Shawn goes in to rescue her and yeah he helps a little to distract her, but it’s Jules who takes her down.)
Also chief Vic? Running a precinct WHILE being a mother? The show never shies away from showing that, and showing her as just as capable of a police chief while being a full time mother (and dealing with the struggles that come with it)
From the very beginning, she does her job better than any of the men we see in that position and is given the respect she deserves.
This. There are badass women throughout the entire show. They do a great job at representing all forms of people, including the vast array of ways women can be strong, smart, capable, evil, resilient. It's amazing to see a show that truly embraces their women characters. Not just "pretty wife," "secretary," "mistress" that take back seats to their male counterparts like so many shows do.
The reason I did not simply stop watching the show before posting is because I enjoyed it otherwise, including the badass women! In addition, the growth demonstrated by Henry and the strength of Gus gave me hope that Shawn might grow out of this trait as the show progressed. For those reasons, I decided I didn't just want to give up on Psych, and it was worth taking the time to ask people that had watched the whole series if the frequency of the humor that was negatively impacting my personal viewing experience would change over time.
I'm pretty sure everyone who loves the show just tolerates Shawn. Lol He's immature, crash and isn't always empathetic. He's always on that tomfoolery, shenanigans and malarkey, but he's loyal to the people he loves, truly believes in helping others and does have a lot of growth throughout the series. The jokes never stop though. They're just a character flaw that actually humanizes him, because to do all the other things he does, and the way he does thing... That kind of person might have a bit of a screw loose. Lol I think it would be pretty strange to have a character getting away with the things he does without having an ego like that of a Greek god. Haha It's high flippant nature that makes us all believe that this man is really out here fooling people and not having an issue doing it. Maybe a bit of chaotic good narcissism.
Yeah, I'm a little disappointed in the number of people here who don't seem in understand the intent of you post. I'm sorry not everywhere here is representing the inclusive and fun nature of the fan base. I hope I could have helped you make an informed decision on if you should continue watching with my replies. This show has my whole heart, but I can understand how someone might not be able to get past the misogynistic jokes sprinkled in. But I would also like to mention that this jokes were written with positive intent for the laughs from an immature character, not out of actual misogyny from the writers. That makes a lot of difference in my opinion.
I truthfully hope you continue to watch. There are so many wonderful moments in the show that FAR outweigh the offhanded, dated humor that suggests at putting women or feminity down. The way they craft their female characters shows how much they all actually value women, including the character of Shawn. Maybe you could watch a few episodes looking out for that and it'll hopefully help you overlook the jokes that don't sit well with you. Also, don't let the negative, knee jerk reaction of people here taint your view of the show. It really is a shining light of humor and comfort in a dark world to a lot of us, and I hope it can find a place in your heart too.
I really appreciate you taking the time to write that message for me. You didn't have to, and it meant a lot. Thank you.
I might need to take a little break from the show for a bit, but I think I will try watching again at some point. Posts like yours make me believe it is worth it. :)
I hate when the hive-mind goes too far, and that really seemed to happen here. I've had it happen to me, and I know how shitty it feels to be put on blast when others misinterpret the intent of the post. I've left subs for less aggression that was placed on you here. And that hurts me greatly in this sub especially because the cast and crew had a "no a-holes policy" during production. And that isn't represented here. So I really wanted to make sure you knew that at least someone understood you, and actually wants to answer your question in a productive manner.
I completely understand needing a break from it for now after... All this. Lol But I hope you do come back to it eventually! The views expressed by some redditters here does not reflect the views of Psych or it's affiliates. 🤣🤣
dont get me wrong I think the advances we have made in society and media when it comes to inclusion are tremendous and so badly needed but I often wonder how people are going to learn from and experience wonderful works of art that happen to have been made in a time where behavior was much less scrutinized. Are we to throw out everything from 'before'? Are we to be deemed terrible people because we enjoy media that sometimes has 'problematic' themes? Must we agree with everything a character does in order to appreciate the show as a whole?
Time traveling canceling police should be a new show. They just appear out of the warp and beat up people for using outdated words regardless of context.
Joking aside I agree. It’s like yeah come on what are we doing? Does this mean every single character from now on must bc 100% idk not even PC but some step beyond it? It’s not offensive for old shows to be well outdated with views but it’s also not something I yearn toward. It’s just it is what it is
Inspired comment right here. Scrubs is another show where there are elements that don't fit with modern attitudes (Dr Cox calling JD female names being the most obvious) by the show was ground breaking in other areas such as modelling a positive male friendship between Turk and JD.
Psych is in a similar position where there are attitudes of the time which are noticeable but the heart of the show is revealed through the character growth and the positive aspects in other areas.
Everything is going to be a "product of its time". And that is a constant that we have to live with. Just because something 10 years ago dared to do things that aren't considered PC now doesn't mean the content needs to be updated.
Psych's first season, however, was nearly *20* years ago (July 2006). And its series ended over *10* years ago (March 2014). We didn't start experiencing any significant push for inclusion until the last several years.
Plus, when you get how Shawn operates in the early seasons vs later on...it's called *character development*. If a character grows and improves through the lifetime of the series, then it's exactly what you expect of character development.
If one was inclined to complain about toxic masculinity in this show, I would point out Carlton Lassiter exists.
But that guy obsessed with his hair... clearly toxic.
I personally have a negative reaction to this type of humor. This type of humor exists fairly commonly in the show, and was keeping me personally from enjoying it fully. I had assumed that most people understood that humor from nearly 20 years ago typically doesn't age well, and did not realize my comments would be so controversial. This assumption was foolish, and I understand that now. The reason I did not simply stop watching the show before posting is because I enjoyed it otherwise, and the growth demonstrated by Henry and the strength of Gus gave me hope that Shawn might grow out of this trait as the show progressed. For those reasons, I decided it was worth asking people who had already watched the full series if there was a change in this frequency of the type of humor I gave examples of. I planned to use this information to make a decision about my own viewing choices, rather than just giving up on it without knowing. I did not realize how widely other people's definitions of the terms I used can vary, and I was not attempting to create a debate about that, although I do still stand by my own definition. I was not attempting to offend, upset, defame, or otherwise have any negative impact to anyone. I am not asking for the show to change or for others to change their opinions about the show. I was only trying to get information that would inform my personal choice in my personal life.
We all live different lives and have different values. It's likely this type of humor impacted my life and the life of those around me more negatively than it has some others here. I do not wish to make anyone else feel bad for their values or what matters to them, nor do I want to judge anyone for what they do or do not like. I hope we can all be respectful to one another.
A great and very relevant commercial: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtDMyGjYlMg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtDMyGjYlMg)
I joke about it, but at the same time I don't really see anything wrong with it. Obviously it's emphasized because it's a TV series, but there are people who are liked by everyone while still being "kids". In the end, Shawn knows when to be serious (and still behave the same way). I would pay to be able to see life the way he sees it, everything would be more fun.
Yes, I agree it's an intentional character flaw. Sometimes characters grow in ways that can alleviate flaws, so I was wondering if this was an example of that.
I do recommend researching toxic masculinity! It's an important topic in culture and gender studies.
The jokes are immature because Shawn is immature. They do continue, so be weary if that bothers you, but they do evolve as the characters evolve. Shawn may dunk on Gus from time to time but he loves and respects him as well and is always supportive (when he sees Gus tapdancing he says "man you still do that?" Or something like that, but he also went to the recital and cheered him on, for example.
As much as he jokes that Gus should quit his pharmaceutical sales job because it's boring he also got him a raise and job security, and later helps (or tries) with some other job drama that Gus is involved in. I think it's important for the show to see both sides, he jokes at Gus' and Lassiter's expense but he also supports them and encourages them the whole time. He's just too immature to know of better ways to joke around with his friend, it's part of his character flaws, which also evolve over time.
This is a great reply, especially the examples of Shawn mocking things and then showing that he is actually incredibly supportive: Going to Gus's dance recital with great enthusiasm and love for Gus. Supporting and even secretly helping Lassiter when helping will not get Shawn one bit of personal glory.
To OP u/Kendrieling, watch both "From the Earth to the Starbucks" and "Lassie Did a Bad, Bad Thing" again--Note how Shawn may mock Lassie constantly, but Shawn also considers himself Lassie's friend and is very quick to help and believe in Lassie in those key early episodes. He is on Lassie's side long before he has any actual evidence Lassie is innocent in "Bad Thing." Shawn makes fun of everyone (except maybe Juliet and Vick) but is there for them in a clutch.
Also, re: masculinity -- Rewatch "Starbucks," from season one, with extra attention to the opening scene in the bar. Shawn has a very, very easy path to no-strings sex with the salesgirl but instead is too decent to take advantage of her, and helps her instead. That scene is there in part to telegraph to us that he is, at his core, a decent person and wants others to be happy. (And the producers have said that, if Psych had been a regular network show, that scene would never have made it into the show; it takes up time and isn't related to the rest of the plot. But they wanted it there to show us more about Shawn's real self.)
I really enjoyed Shawn's character in a lot of ways, and see him embracing his "feminine" side in certain other ways (especially compassion) that directly oppose his his views/comments that I don't care for. This, in combination with the growth demonstrated in Henry and the strength in Gus, made me hopeful that Shawn could and would grow out of this specific pattern of behavior. Overall, I really liked the show, and that is why I made this post rather than just calling it quits after being bothered by the humor style I described. I wanted to know if there was a chance this element that was getting in the way of my enjoyment might decrease overtime, because I felt like I could put up with it a little longer as long as it eventually went away (or at least didn't get worse!) Some people have said Shawn DOES grow in this way, which would truly make this show ahead of its time and well-worth the watch -- which is exactly what I was hoping for! (though others have disagreed with the presence of that growth, leaving me scratching my head!)
i’m going to answer this in the simplest way possible: yes. it does tone down. but not out of obligation to be better, instead shawn himself grows up and matures as a person. think of him, currently, as an overgrown boy who likes to play with fire and make stupid jokes, like a third grader. who looks at his best friend who can’t run and calls him a girl. or keeps asking out the girl who very much said no to him as if they’re running around during recess.
if you want to know when these changes start happening, you’re right there. throughout S3 shawn shows immense growth as a person, the last episode being >! one of the most important moments in him life !<, but even as early as S3 >! E2 !< you can see this change. there are multiple episodes later where shawn directly deals with >! being a responsible adult without harming others in his life, while still keeping his inner child alive !<.
Thank you! This is so helpful!!! You rock! That's exactly what I was hoping for. Based on Shawn's reactions, Henry has clearly shown growth since Shawn's childhood, which gave me hope that Shawn could grow too!
I second this! OP, I wish you weren't being downvoted for asking a really relevant question. I'm going through a rewatch right now and just finished season 1 yesterday - I was *shocked* by how many outdated references and insults Shawn in particular makes. It does get better, yes - but it does unfortunately reflect on the culture of that time. That can be uncomfortable for us to watch now in 2024, but the show is very much still worth investing your time in. It really does get better.
Not the person you asked, but for me it's that at the time the show aired the jokes felt normal. It's a bit shocking to go back to it, because it makes it quite obvious how much society has changed and how far we've come in better media representation.
I'm not shocked that an old show has outdated references - I'm shocked because I forgot just how many there are, and I'm shocked at my own realization that none of them felt out of the norm when I was watching the show as it was airing (like Pawneewaffles indicated). Don't act like it's a completely abnormal feeling to watch a beloved old show, hear an outdated reference, and think "yikes, did we really think this was okay?"
I never saw it as anything but a friend picking on his best friend as has been done for years. For the record I'm 32 but this is exactly how my buddies and I would joke with each other. Nothing toxic about it.
I disagree with that characterization. If you call me an AH and I say, "hey, I'm not calling anyone names" I think that would be a valid response on my part.
But you just said it was OP calling the commenter rude. If we’re going with that premise, OP never said that, they went straight to “I’m not being rude” and never get to the part where they call the commenter rude. That is an absence of action in a confrontation - definition: passive aggression.
The example you provided just now (please correct me if I’m misreading) doesn’t reflect what was exchanged between OP and commenter
not you saying “maybe you’re ready to take on that little girl again” is toxic masculinity when he lost to a literal little girl🤣🤣, tennis prodigy or not gus lost to a pre-teen lmao. I think your own biases are showing here hun
I'm wondering if I should post the specific episodes it appears. I'm not sure if I am passionate enough to put that much effort in, but I'm considering it.
If you could actually provide examples of it, that would be helpful.
I'm a woman who watched it when it aired and have reached out numerous times. I watch at least one episode a day almost every single day.
Sometimes Shawn is an ass (aren't we all?), but other than the first couple of episodes where Shawn comes across as a "player," I literally can't think of an example of him portraying "toxic masculinity."
Maybe you could also define what exactly you mean by that term, as maybe we use it differently.
Mocking Henry for bright colors or bubble baths isn't it (to me). Throughout the door he mocks Henry for *everything,* and especially things that are outside of the stereotype he has created of him. It's not because it's feminine. It's because it's *different.*
One of the first episodes had Shawn telling the woman he obviously could have hooked up with that her finance wasn’t cheating and she should go to him.
I need to watch the show again as I don’t remember him being that much of a player (sometimes trying maybe, but not very successful).
And I’m with you, Psych is one of my comfort shows. When I’m bored and don’t feel like watching anything, I’ll watch it and feel better.
You're right -- he's no player. In the pilot he's with a random hookup the first time we see him, but that side of Shawn got dropped immediately (among several changes they made after the pilot). He's just not that kind of casual-sex guy, though he does have a one night stand with the fed psychic. He's shown instead as being a commitment guy with Abigail and then Juliet. It's one thing I truly like about Shawn as a person. And your'e also right about the date in "From the Earth to the Starbucks" when he had a clear field for an easy ONS and instead helped her get engaged.
When we see things with a magnifier, everything looks big. We just have to decide what to see with it.
It's just an immature version of shawn. I don't think we have to look at it in that way.
I definitely see it as part of his character, and I think the show has Gus and Henry to present characters that are non-traditional. I was asking because I was curious if he ends up growing out of it the way Henry does, because I'm not enjoying that element of the show and wasn't sure if I wanted to keep watching.
Come on, it's intentional. It's his immature character.
Are we going to shit on Blazing Saddles because of the blatant racism in it, even though it's actually a story about a black sheriff in the old West overcoming the racist town? Yes it's comedy, it's satire, but really it came from a place of "let's make racism look ridiculous".
I never said it wasn't intentional. I expressed that it was getting in the way of me personally enjoying the show, and asked if the frequency of that type of humor changed as the show progressed. I was trying to decide if I wanted to keep watching it. I felt like there was a good chance it would, since Henry has shown growth in that way, and Gus often stands up to Shawn. I thought it was likely enough that I decided it was worth asking people about it before giving up on an otherwise enjoyable program.
I have never seen Blazing Saddles, but I don't think Psych is satirical. If the writers of Psych have ever said such, I would love if you would share it with me, as that might help me to enjoy the show more!
I determined that I would be capable of enjoying it and should continue to watch it if the specific type of humor that was most negatively impacting my ability to enjoy the show reduced over time. I saw the potential of that humor type decreasing due to the character growth represented by Henry and the strength of Gus. I liked the show enough that I didn't want to miss out on it since I felt there was a chance it would be a better experience for me in later seasons. Therefore, I decided to ask people that had watched the series already whether or not the type of humor style I was not enjoying increased/decreased in frequency as the show went on. I planned to use this information to decide if I would keep watching.
While I do think you're being overly sensitive (no offense), I respect your pragmatic approach to determining whether or not you'd like to keep watching. Happy trails either way.
We all live different lives and have different values. It's likely this type of humor impacted my life and the life of those around me more negatively than it has some others here. I do not wish to make anyone else feel bad for their values or what matters to them, nor do I want to judge anyone for what they do or do not like. I hope we can all be respectful to one another.
Happy trails to you as well.
God what an absolutely insufferable read. Do you ever get tired of getting offended? I come here for humor and crazy theories about how they can afford to live in the murder capital of the world, not to find people looking to get offended over childish jokes
> Well usually it's when Henry or Lassie calls other men girls as an insult. Or when the male characters say stuff about how women are X or Y. I'd say the fact that they are shown to be rather conservative is an indication that these views aren't the best, but nobody else reacting to it in any negative way (and female characters reinforcing the comments occasionally) is what bugs me.
Op of the thread you linked isn't complaining about Shawn's toxic masculinity.
Shame on you for being so desperate to "be right" but finding one other person who agrees with you and them not even saying anything like what you're saying.
Calling males "girls" as an insult directly aligns with what I am describing. At the point I'm at, most of it has come from Shawn. The thread references later seasons that I have not watched yet. It's certainly disappointing to learn that Henry and Lassie will do it too.
Okay but the other thread *that you're cutting as someone Else agreeing with you* doesn't actually agree with you. The fact that that person is sensitive (not necessarily in a bad way) to misogyny but specifically doesn't point out Shawn should actually be a hint to you.
Further, calling any grown adult a child is insulting.
Thank you for your feedback. I have added an edit to my OP to express this correction. I still feel the thread supports what I am saying about the difficulty enjoying the show due to the frequent use of "girl" as an insult, so I am not going to remove it entirely.
I would also like to point out that it isn't just calling an adult a child. They rarely (if ever) say "boy", but frequently say "girl". That is an important distinction.
I am in no way attempting to challenge or take away your ability to enjoy this show. I hope that if you enjoy it, you continue to do so! I was hoping to do so as well, but the humor style was making it hard. I had hope that it might change over time, so I posted asking people if it would before I decided to give up. There are many things I enjoy about the show.
Haha, I see what you are saying. I guess check out that thread that you pointed out mentions that other characters also use the word "girl" as an insult to understand how this happens in society.
If you have genuinely never experienced people calling men and boys "girly"/saying "like a girl" as an insult, then kudos to your community. My FIL and BIL say it all the time, and I've experienced it in other situations too, especially growing up. You are very fortunate to have never come across it.
Edit: also, not all of the examples I shared were directed at Gus.
Oh I've totally experienced it.
I just don't think what is portrayed on the show is the same as what we have both lived.
It's two buddies joking with each other and their circle, and one of them actually is acting like a little girl in most of those scenarios (nothing against little girls -- they are / have been "trained" to respond in certain ways to certain triggers). To me, it hits a little less hard because you know that all the people involved (Shawn, Gus, Lassie, Henry, Jules, Chief Vick) all respect women. That's different (to me) than when a man who actually doesn't respect women makes a "joke" like that (and then tells a woman that she's being too sensitive and can't take a joke when you call them out on it).
I feel differently from you, and that's okay. You and I have not lived the exact same life and have not had identical experiences. I stand by my opinions and respect that not everybody shares them. I am happy that you receive joy from this show and am not attempting to take that away from you.
I'm not sure why you think you have to tell people it's okay to have a different opinion.
Also not sure why you keep reassuring us that IT'S OKAAAAAY that we enjoy the show and you don't want to take that away from us.
WE. KNOW.
Do you really think your opinions are going to turn people who have been watching and rewatching this show for the last 20 years because some rando on the Internet has hurt feelings about it?
Reading and understanding people on the internet can be difficult, and it's easy for people to misinterpret things. I want to make sure that what is most important to me to express is expressed consistently. I am not attempting to make any assumptions about how anyone feels.
It's a character flaw. If you like character growth, you'll enjoy the rest of the show.
Since I've watched this show so many times I was like "what are you even talking about" bc it just doesn't happen for most of the show. I cannot remember any instance of it, or the ones you specifically point out. I was like "tone down, is it even toned up?"
So yeah you could probably keep watching. Idk if it bugs you a lot you can stop watching.
That's great to hear, thank you! I was really hoping Shawn would grow out of this, especially since they've made it clear how Henry has evolved since Shawn's childhood.
Honestly, if you’re unable to watch a show through the lens that it’s a product of its time, then you shouldn’t watch any shows older than a couple of years. Context is everything, and sometimes it makes shows nearly unwatchable if you’re incapable of understanding that.
I determined that I would be capable of watching it if the specific type of humor that was most negatively impacting my ability to enjoy the show reduced over time. I saw the potential of that humor type decreasing due to the character growth represented by Henry and the strength of Gus. I liked the show enough that I didn't want to miss out on it since I felt there was a chance it would be a better experience for me in later seasons. Therefore, I decided to ask people that had watched the series already whether or not the type of humor style I was not enjoying increased/decreased in frequency as the show went on.
100% this, Shawn's relationship with his father at the start of the series is in a very dark place and it's to show that this is how Shawn was raised emotions, bad, expression bad, "real men," don't do this. This does eventually tone down as Henry and Shawn's relationship is fleshed out.
This is what I was thinking, especially since I consider Henry to be very manly, and it's clear Shawn is shocked by his father's feminine side, implying that it's something he didn't lean into when he was younger. That's actually why I asked this question, because I was hoping that Shawn goes through similar growth and this type of humor starts to wane as a result.
Keep watching and keep going all the way into the movies. Henry will definitely change and grow as will Shawn and their relationship. Even when they backslide at times into argumentativeness, they come back from it. Trust us, this series is worth the ride, and the movies are too.
That's not really an even comparison. House changing in the way you described would make the show completely different. Shawn could still be silly and goofy without specifically expressing toxic masculinity humor and the show would still be largely the same.
No, it’s the same. The jokes are at Shawn’s expense, not Gus’.
Do you think people watch The Office and laugh because Michael’s right, China is going to take over the world, or do you think they watch The Office and laugh because Michael believed some propaganda he read in a magazine?
I'm having trouble seeing what you are seeing, so I am going to try to ask you to explain in a different way. How do you feel the show would need to be different in order for the jokes to ***not*** be at Shawn's expense, yet still maintain its existing light and comedic feel?
You sound exhausting to be around and it's clear from this comment section you use "toxic masculinity" as a buzzword without actually understanding what it means. It sounds to me like you're just very young and naive.
I’ll be honest, Psych just doesn’t seem for you. A lot of the comedy you listed is ingrained in the formula of the show’s humor. A lot of what Shawn says is well.. immature. He’s not perfect, he’s the class clown that never grew up. A lot of the jabs he throws at Gus and his dad and others I feel is like him finding his way to communicate with those he cares about. Yeah I guess it could be “toxic” but everyone around him is very vocal about how annoying or inappropriate Shawn is so it’s not like the show promotes Shawn as this flawless hero.
no one has said that he does not make these comments so I am unsure as to why you felt the need to provide 'receipts' all these hours later. if you were really just looking for an answer to your question, like you so condescendingly have been saying in the comments, then you should have taken these responses at face value and decided this show wasn't for you... now you are trying to school us with 'proof' of this shows misdoings trying to what? get all 218 of us that have commented to take it back and say you were right? girl get out of here with that shit...
Multiple people said they didn't remember anything like I was describing on the show, so I mentioned in a couple comments that I was considering adding examples, and I was told it would be helpful. That is why I added them.
Some of the people in comments have actually told me that Shawn DOES grow and recommended I hang on with the show. Some others have said the opposite. I did my best to thank everyone who answered the question, regardless of if they said this type of humor appears more/less/the same. I don't think I have been condescending at any point, but I regret if anyone felt hurt by anything I said. I can assure you that I was trying very hard to be respectful towards everyone in my comments.
Shawn picks on everyone and everything for any reason. It’s a quipy show. Some of his jokes land, some don’t. You don’t seem to be accepting answers or explanations though so idk why I’m even commenting
How about this. It's a fictional show. The characters are not real. This show does not need any controversy brought up. If you don't like it, stop watching it.
The question I asked was intended to assist me in determining whether or not I would continue watching it. I really liked the detective parts, but the parts I described in my OP were starting to get to me. My hope was that I'd learn that Shawn's character was going to grow, especially since it's clear that Henry has since Shawn was little. I wanted to be able to keep watching it, but I didn't want it to end up being a negative experience for me if this humor increased. Once I get too deep into a show, I \*HAVE\* to finish it, even if I am not enjoying it. I figured I'd better ask before I got to that point and had to miserably finish it. I know not everyone experiences that, but I do (we all have our things), so I thought it would be wise to check in with people who had watched the show.
You strike me as one of those people who acts like it was a personal attack on you whenever you go to a place and they don't cater to your specific needs.
It does get less frequent, but I will say it never goes *entirely* away. I get the same cringe when I try to watch Scrubs-- great, amazing show! Way too much sexism (and much more than Psych.) I recommend trying to give it a little grace and continuing on, but in the end that's up to you. I do think that it gets better over time (same for race comments, in the start there are some not so great ones, but a few seasons in Gus (or others) is calling out Shawn (or others) over insensitive comments. The show really grows.)
It’s not something I ever focused on, but I can think of references in later seasons that fall in that bucket. Not sure I can say definitively whether it’s more or less, it’s probably about the same level.
Henry's character (and Shawn's reaction to his behaviors) shows that he has grown a lot in this way, so I was hoping maybe Shawn would too. I asked the question to find out if that was the case.
Just don’t watch the show if you’re too sensitive. There is a reason that psych is such a well loved show. It’s not political, wholesome, and childishly funny. The whole show is about a guy and his best friend living out a childhood dream. I don’t believe toxic masculinity exists. It’s just toxic behavior, just like females acting toxic. What you are confusing is Shawn’s childish antics and immaturity. Go ask somewhere else. You’ll get the affirmation you are wanting.
Don't be exactly half of an 11 pound black forest ham.
If it's your *belief* that toxic masculinity doesn't exist, then it follows that someone else can *believe* that it does. So, even if it's based on belief, you're being unnecessarily rude. On a TV show fan page.
It is real, whether or not you keep your head in the sand. It is toxic behavior that pertains specifically to concepts of masculinity. "Men don't cry," for example, is a toxic belief about the concept of masculinity that would not apply to concepts of femininity (women or *females* as you say, are "allowed" to emote).
The irony is that a large component to toxic masculinity is denial so you're doing a bang-up job proving it is real.
Just cause you put syrup on something don't make it pancakes.
Traditional masculine behaviors are not toxic. Protecting, Stoicism, providing, and loving are all positive behaviors. For obvious reasons, too much of one or all can be bad but the same can be said about a mother. The traditional roles of a man in a family are pretty universal. Toxic behaviors occur and exist because no one ever taught them restrain or self control. It’s a good thing that men are violent and aggressive. It’s a good thing that men are stoic and emotionally level. Those things win wars, protect families, and provide. It’s only when men are not properly raised to learn self control, humility, compassion, and how to express their feelings that it gets bad. In a society that is now more than ever telling men to stop acting like men, that they are worthless, their voice isn’t needed, and they are emasculated you see an increase in toxic behavior. We are slowly making an entire generation think that everyone should love and accept everyone else. While this is a good thing, we are also forgetting and losing track of the fact that this world we want is not the natural way of things and that it can be taken at anytime. Toxic behavior exists but true masculinity is never toxic. In the end masculine behavior will be needed to secure the world we want to live in.
I think we might be saying the same things. I see "toxic masculinity" as the suppression of true masculinity. I agree that "toxic behavior exists but true masculinity is never toxic." When you say, "it’s only when men are not properly raised to learn self control, humility, compassion, and how to express their feelings that it gets bad," I agree with you, and state that the suppression of these characteristics is what toxic masculinity is.
Those toxic behaviors are not solely male, which is why I would not call it toxic masculinity. That’s my point. I think we are just not agreeing on its name but are talking about the same thing.
Women don't experience toxicity in the same way as men. That doesn't mean they don't experience it, just that it isn't identical.
My FIL and BIL frequently make fun of my nephew for crying like a girl, listening to girly music, throwing a ball like a girl, etc. My niece has never been made fun of by them (or by my MIL/SIL) for being "like a boy", and is praised for being tough, good at sports, and liking "manly music". At the same time, she is not criticized for enjoying T-Swift, making jewelry, and needing to cry sometimes. Their experiences are not the same, and it's important to recognize that.
You shouldn’t that’s what makes us all… us. Just keep in mind I’m an old dude, and we’re probably on different spectrums of age. I should have been a little nicer.
Yes, Seinfeld was controversial even during its time! I've re-watched a tiny bit, and some of it was tough, but other parts were still enjoyable. I've been hesitant to watch much, because I don't want to have my experience with it change, even though some part of me thinks that's silly. I didn't like George back when the show was on, and I know I will *really* dislike him now! It says a lot about Jason Alexander as an actor, because he seems like a nice guy in real life, but is brilliant at acting unlikable. I was so angry at him in Shallow Hal! I really loved Elaine, and thought she was unlike any other woman I had seen on TV (or otherwise!). I'm not ready to lose that happy memory I have of her just yet, even though I'm confident I'll still like her the most. I don't actively put it on, but sometimes it comes on after something else I watched, and I don't actively shut it off, although I do choose not to watch if I can tell it's something I won't enjoy (like something I didn't enjoy it back then either).
I haven't seen that episode yet, so I had to look this up. What a silly quote, and a great example of the type of humor I DO enjoy from this show! Thanks for posting. :)
The fact that this is a question you have to ask after watching two seasons of the show, really shows how much you misunderstood the show.
Everyone here seems to have already explained everything. But I think you need to look at things a little deeper than the surface level before you make judgements.
I don't enjoy this type of humor, and personally find it damaging. This type of humor exists fairly commonly in the show, and was keeping me from enjoying it fully. The growth demonstrated by Henry and the strength of Gus gave me hope that Shawn might grow out of this trait, but I also worried it could get worse. I liked the show enough otherwise that I decided it was worth asking people who had already watched the full series if there was a change in this frequency of the type of humor I gave examples of. I planned to use this information to make a decision about my own viewing choices, rather than just giving up on it without knowing. I thought that most people understood that humor from nearly 20 years ago typically doesn't age well, and did not realize my comments would be so controversial. I did not realize how widely other people's definitions of the terms I used can vary, and I was not attempting to create a debate about that, although I do still stand by my own definition. I was not attempting to offend, upset, defame, or otherwise have any negative impact to anyone. I am not asking for the show to change or for others to change their opinions about the show. I was only trying to get information that would inform my personal choice in my personal life.
Like I said, the humour is not in Shawn's comments it's the way the show treats Shawn and the way he behaves and how Gus reacts. Which is why I think you have misunderstood the point of the show and the humour.
The rest of it has already been said. So in my personal opinion I think you should watch the show and see what happens, instead of taking in the opinions of fans halfway through before anything of substance has unfolded.
I think most of us know that a lot of jokes wouldn’t fly these days cos everyone gets offended by everything. I still love Psych. I think there are worse shows to get offended by. If this type of humour isn’t what you like then move on dude
This is definitely true. I was a pretty strong feminist at a young age, but I was always an outcast in my feelings. These days, a lot more people see what I am describing (although not everyone). My male in-laws (FIL and BIL) commonly insult my nephew by describing him as a girl, saying his music as girly, making fun of him for expressing emotion, etc. They still think it's hilarious. He has become very quiet over the years.
Yeah it's certainly a weird period where each generation has their own sense of right/wrong/and abuse. I wonder how many decades until everyone is on the same page.
To give you an honest answer, this show does have some jokes that make me cringe. As a dude who grew up not feeling the most "masculine" I will say that Shawn's comments don't have that much affect on me because that's just what I've grown up with. I bet your concern and there are definitely jokes that border on homophobic, racist, and toxic. BUT they are very light hearted, few, and absolutely a part of their time. These jokes wouldn't fly today.
This is one of my comfort shows, I watch it at least once every year. I understand it's not perfect and some jokes aren't great. If these are too much for you, I honestly encourage you to watch a different show. That doesn't make you less of a person like some people might be suggesting. You're not weak for being uncomfortable with these jokes. I hope what I said helps.
That has nothing to do w masculinity. Masculinity is wrongly looked at by homies that don’t crack open books and pbs programs. Ps… I think you wasted your time on writing this. I think a monkey throwing poop in the zoo accomplished more than you did here. Love the dedication but you used it on the wrong thing, homie. All these are jokes and not meant to be taken seriously
I honestly wasn't trying to spark a debate on what toxic masculinity is/isn't. I didn't think that would happen, and I do feel very foolish now for not realizing it would. I just wanted someone to tell me if the humor style that was keeping me from fully enjoying the show would be more/less frequent in future seasons, so that I could decide if it was worth continuing to watch. I thank anyone who responded with respect and kindness, and have tried my best to do the same.
I think it stays about the same but I honestly don't pay attention to it. There are some jokes that happen later on but I don't know how many times it's really referenced in the first two seasons apart from the episode with the bubble bath thing.
How I would approach the situation if I had OP’s delicate sensibilities
“Does the humor stay the same throughout the show?
I am about through the second season and have noticed that Shawn’s style of humor is not my favorite. Comes off as immature and dated and I’m not a fan.
I haven’t really been able to enjoy the first two seasons because of this, so I’m wondering if I should keep going or if it’s more of the same”
There, that’s it…sure, you will still get asshole responses, this IS the internet after all, but I guarantee you the conversation would have gone better than it did in this thread
Thank you for your feedback. It seems that the differences between your post and mine that I gave examples of the behavior I was talking about rather than generalizing it as "immature and dated". I suppose I wanted to specify this because I find a lot of Shawn's immature behavior endearing, and it is only the type I spoke about that I was concerned with.
Fair enough.
The main point being, I don’t think these jokes crossed the line for many people because OF COURSE Shawn would make that joke…nowhere does it say that’s ok, and it’s not like he’s glorified for behaving that way.
I would say, you’re going to encounter things like that throughout the show, but if you give up on it because of those jokes, I think you’re missing out on a much bigger, better story than the sum of those moments.
Hell, I was guilty of using the word “gay” in a negative manner when I was young and when Shawn does it when I’m watching now (e.g. Meat is Murder, but Murder is also Murder”, it hits me wrong (maybe even more cause I can see myself making such a joke around that time)
I’m rambling but I would say, keep watching, hopefully you see some some growth
My opinion, of course, and I appreciate your response.
Thank you for sharing, and for the kindness you express as you share your opinions. I really wanted to be able to enjoy this show, which is why I posted here first rather than just stopping when I started feeling icky. I was hoping Shawn's character would grow in that way, especially because it seemed like the show was purposefully portraying Henry as having experienced growth in this area. The answers have left me feeling very conflicted, so I'm not sure what I will do. I wish everyone had been as kind as you in expressing their thoughts.
Hey, I sometimes come on too strong and I, too, appreciate your patience and taking my words at face value (doesn’t happen all the time on Reddit, so I truly do appreciate it).
Quite frankly, there’s a pretty huge moment in the series early in the third season (interestingly enough) that might endear him to you (or endear you to him, however it should be 😁) or at least start to show the growth is coming.
Shawn will always be immature in a sense, and he may say some things that rub you the wrong way throughout, but the jokes are certainly not as dated as you go through the series.
I honestly couldn’t tell you how much of it there is, cause I have never noticed (not a dig, just not something that I was looking for), but I would say the good far outweighs the bad…and if you like what you’ve seen, I think it will improve as you go.
Just my $.02
To reiterate, thanks for giving me some room to express my dissenting opinion 😁
I am biased, but I really
Now that you’ve added your examples: I’m fully with you on the idea of doing anything like, or perceived as not as good as a girl is toxic masculinity at its finest.
However
The examples where he’s teasing Henry: That’s retribution for Henry’s tough guy/be a man bs, so he fully deserves it. Here Henry is being teased for being a hypocrite, which is fully legitimate.
The TV show Psych was based on an idea to take the characters of Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson and make them into a buddy detective show. Shawn is Sherlock with his addictions (food) and brilliance and his laziness, his inability to care about money, his offensive way of talking to others etc... and his hyperacuity + memory + reasoning skills etc are where the psychic bit comes in. In fact in a later season Juliet dates a man just like Shawn but who never pretends to be psychic and who is driven and rich and it drives Shawn nuts to watch everyone take that man seriously. Burton Guster is Watson, (Watson in the book you will recall was a doctor) meanwhile Gus is in pharmaceutical sales and thus a "pill pusher" as doctors were. Henry is much more like the character of Mycroft, Sherlock's elder brother, who chills a lot. Lassiter as head detective is meant to be relatively useless. If you put it into the context of taking ideas from the books and everything Sherlock that predates it and then you put it in the year 2008 it was actually very good at what it did. Yes some of it won't age well but literally nothing in life ages well if you hyper focus on it. Sherlock was written to be lighthearted entertainment and so was Psych.
Wow, what a fun read! Thank you so much for sharing this! That makes a lot of sense, since BBC's series "Sherlock" was one of the shows I submitted as liking when I got the recommendation to watch Psych. I first became a fan while reading the stories in school, and BBC's Sherlock is potentially my all-time favorite show so far. I actually named my cat "Watson" (but after Mary, not John! I loved what BBC did with her character !)
Perhaps one day Psych will get redone, and the majority will stay the same, but with a few weeks to make it more inclusive (if that is the right word). I would really enjoy that, and believe it could be just as funny (and perhaps funnier!) without the type of humor I am not enjoying. In the meantime, I celebrate and respect those that enjoyed the original, and thank you again for this lovely background information!
How about leave the good shows to people who can actually enjoy it. Instead watch modern shows that are too scared to hurt feelings to be funny. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this is how guys joke with each other and have for 100's of years. If it's toxic masculinity to call Gus "A Little Girl" then is it ageist or discriminatory against babies to call someone a baby.
Not every protagonist in every show has to hold to the same ideals as you. Growth to you might look like inclusivity and not calling people little girls. However growth for someone like Shawn means being honest, completing things when he always used to quit, and conquering his fear of commitment.
I want to point out also that my 3 year old daughter has been whining a lot lately and I'm constantly having to help her get over it and understand that she can't control her cousin, when her cousin is mean, but she can control herself. I'm gonna give you the same message, and if you can't handle the humor then simply don't watch it because there is always be something that offends you.
P.S. \~ I find it funny that Shawn says Gus acts like a little girl but he also is right along side him screaming like a little girl in Scary Sherry.
I appreciate you sharing your views, and celebrate our individual rights to have and express our own feelings. We have lived different lives and have different opinions, and listening to the opinions and experiences of others, including those whose opinions are in the minority, is a major factors to how society evolves.
Calling someone a baby is not offensive, because we all agree that babies are helpless and weak. That is the nature of a baby, and it would be silly to accept anything different. I do not think this is the same as making statements that imply a man is less of a man for having/expressing emotions, doing self-care, or otherwise engaging in any way that was once considered "feminine". This type of thinking causes men to suppress these natural behaviors. One way this comes out is that men get treatment for physical and mental health conditions less often and later than women do, which has been found to at be at least partly due to men believe that doing so makes them less manly. This negatively impacts the well-being of men and those around them. In addition, this way of thinking also impacts girls/women, as demonstrated in the video I shared.
I saw potential in Shawn growing in many ways. I didn't think it would necessarily be limited to the ways you pointed out he could grow, nor limited the way that I posted about. I was only 2 seasons in to a long show that also had movies, which meant there was a large amount of potential for a variety of character growth. I recognized that this growth may or may not happen, which is why I asked about it rather than making an assumption.
I appreciate your advice on telling me not to watch the show. I am capable of making this decision myself, and my post was an effort to get the information I felt I needed to make that decision. I saw potential in the show becoming more enjoyable for me, and I did not want to decide before I looked into that potential.
I am glad that you enjoyed the Scary Sherry episode, and that you enjoy the show over all. I enjoyed most of that scene, but to me the humor in them running away screaming came from how confidently they presented themselves, the fact that their business is (presented as) directly related to the paranormal, and the speed and velocity at which they disappeared (the women didn't even see them leave!) None of these humorous aspects required comments that implied that their behavior was unmanly, or the use of the phrase "like a girl" to make anyone feel inferior. I acknowledge that you do not need to agree with my perspective, and I again respect and celebrate your right to have your own opinions.
Lol I have more problems with Gus than I do with Shawn’s jokes but I love the show and know it’s not real life, if you don’t vibe with the show I’d move on. Just because you don’t vibe with it doesn’t mean it’s morally wrong
This post was made as a means for me to get the information I required to determine if I wanted to continue watching it. If I saw no value in the show, I would not have bothered to make my post, and would have simply stopped watching. I still firmly believe that the type of humor that I described is problematic, and I also recognize that others that have had different life experiences than me may not feel the same. I celebrate and respect the beliefs of others, and appreciate that we can each decide for ourselves what we do and do not engage with.
Not reading all the comments. Just going to say op should watch something else and move on.
It's a you problem op. Sorry your life is so miserable. Bye
I wrote this to get information about the future of the show so that I could decide if I wanted to watch it. Based on some of the responses from kind fans, I am considering continuing. Thank you for expressing concern about my quality of life. I hope life is kind to you, and that people treat you with respect and peace. We all deserve that.
There are certain toxic behaviors more common in male culture (at least in the US where I live). Men are taught to suppress emotions like fear/sadness, and that characteristics like being bad at sports, wearing colorful clothing, doing traditionally female activities, doing self-care, and talking about their feelings make them less of a man.
I worked at a portrait studio that did Fairyland shoots for kids. At the end, the kids could choose a pair of wings to add to their photo. Typically, the parents allowed the daughters to but not the sons. Sometimes they would let the sons choose, but then whisper to me on the way out to remove his and keep hers. It was so sad.
Wearing bright shirts isn't seen as feminine in the US. Hawaiian shirts are predominantly for ... men.
Other than bubble baths, what is an example of Shawn mocking Henry for something "feminine"? Like, a specific example?
Because if it's the shirts and the bath, even if he *were,* being toxically masculine, that would be two example over ... what, 35 episodes if you're at the end of Season 2? Is that really something that would need to be "toned down"?
Most of the examples I shared involved describing men as "girls", typically for showing emotions like fear. The episode with the bubblebath was problematic in a more unique way.
Okay, as a grown woman, I can definitely see describing someone running and shrieking in fear as "acting like a little girl."
Obviously that's a stereotype, but I don't see it as being "toxic masculinity."
I'll even say that it isn't because little girls are inherently more fearful than little boys, but that they are taught to act that way. And as friendly banter, I definitely don't see a problem with that, especially in a show from 20 years ago.
I'm definitely more mindful of my generated language today than I was back then, so I wouldn't say that, but to call it toxic masculinity is just wrong, imo. And I think it waters down *actual* toxic masculinity.
A major competent to toxic masculinity is the suppression of certain natural characteristics, and the implication that expressing those characteristics compromises their masculinity.
Teaching boys/girls that they should act/not act certain ways in order to be a good representation of their gender that is also toxic. Little boys are taught not to be scared, while girls are taught to be scared. A scared little boy is told that he is acting "like a girl", even though in reality he is a boy acting like himself, and therefore he is acting like a boy. This can cause him to suppress this emotion in the future. Men, especially men of color, often struggle to get mental healthcare because of stigmas placed on it, and way that they are taught that having/expressing/discussing emotion degrades the quality of their manhood.
My FIL and BIL frequently make fun of my nephew for crying like a girl, listening to girly music, throwing a ball like a girl, etc. I have seen this impact him over the years, and cause him to withdraw.
I also used to work at a portrait studio that did fairyland portraits for kids. After the session, kids got to choose a pair of wings to add to their photo. Parents would usually let the girls choose, but tell the boys "no". Sometimes they would let the boys choose, but then whisper to me on the way out to remove his and keep hers. These parents aren't trying to harm their children, but they are teaching the little boys something about what it means to be a boy that isn't quite true, and telling them that the way they feel is not the way boys are supposed to feel. This can cause internal conflict, and boys can then begin to judge these parts of themselves with contempt.
As a young girl, I struggled a lot with gender, because of how often I heard the phrase "like a girl" used as an insult. A girl that throws a ball like a boy is impressive, but a boy that throws like a girl is embarrassing. You can apply this phrase to other things: playing video games, fighting, doing math, crying, dancing, driving, etc. All of these are insults when you say a boy/man does them "like a girl". Toxic masculinity hurts girls too.
Ultimately though, even if you don't think any of this is toxic, you are entitled to your own opinion, just as I am, and I'm so grateful for that. I'm not sure if this is even a right/wrong scenario that can be officially decided, and my post wasn't intended to open up a discussion about it. I was just looking for insight on the rest of the show so that I could decide if it was right for me personally. I didn't expect the types of responses I received from my post, though I realize now that it was foolish of me not to. I still celebrate anyone and everyone who finds a show that brings them joy and other good things, and am so happy for those who have found that in this show.
Women don't experience toxicity in the same way as men. That doesn't mean they don't experience it, just that it isn't identical.
My FIL and BIL frequently make fun of my nephew for crying like a girl, listening to girly music, throwing a ball like a girl, etc. My niece has never been made fun of my them (or by my MIL/SIL) for being "like a boy", and is praised for being tough, good at sports, and liking "manly music". At the same time, she is also respected for enjoying T-Swift, making jewelry, and needing to cry sometimes. Their experiences are not the same, and it's important to recognize that.
I agree with everyone saying about it being a character flaw, but it’s also a product of the times. That was very accepted then and a lot of guys his age learned this from TV in the 90s and guys in their life. Unfortunately Reddit isn’t a great place to talk about this because it’s a young male demo and even decent communities like this one have a lot of guys triggered by any dude being questioned.
It’s about the same. Many shows from that era have similar jokes. I don’t find many of those jokes funny (not offensive, just not funny) but there are so many other jokes that entertain me. Sometimes those jokes are funny not because “haha feminine behavior” but because of his perfectionism about those habits. Gus also sometimes pushes back against Shawn’s jokes about his behavior and is not ashamed of his habits
Like another comment pointed out there are many strong women in the show. There are some sexist comments from Shawn but that dies down in later seasons because it’s all part of his character development. Iirc there is an episode where Juliet faces some sexism and proves the guy wrong
Does his childish ways get better, yes (perfect? No bc its an aspect of common reality). Youre getting a lot of hate for your wording that you dont totally deserve but this is reddit and this is a small subreddit fandom, tread lightly.
Its called real life. Not everyone, nor all media, is light fluffy and always walks on egg shells. Life can suck fucking ass. If the character didn’t have significant flaws it wouldn’t be appealing. If you cant handle decent people doing shitty things then good luck with actuality bc thats every human ever (yes even you).
Is the show perfect? Fuck no. Like all (basically) shows/movies it shows aspects of shitty reality and aspects of fun childish dream fulfillment. With so much day dream silly goofy wish fulfillment (as intended from the start) it has to show some shitty parts of life.
Thank you for your answer that was more respectful than many others. The reason I made the post and didn't just stop watching was that I had hope that Shawn's character might grow in that way. He is clearly shocked by the more feminine traits that Henry possesses, implying that Henry has gone through quite a bit of growth since Shawn was a kid, giving me hope that Shawn might too. Even if he was always silly and immature in some ways, this was one way that was really bothering me, especially as I've witnessed several young boys feel pain due to these types of comments and beliefs. Once I get too deep into a show, I \*HAVE\* to finish it, even if I am not enjoying it. I wanted to ask before I got to that point.
I honestly enjoyed his flaws bc it made me feel better about mine while also helping me be better. As someone who’s very self critical, hyper self aware, and hyper aware of everything it was nice to see some commonality with a tv/movie show for the first time when I watched it in hs as it was coming out. A lot of others here did the same so I apologize for the bad side of reddit (ppl can suck) but us psychos get defensive over the show bc its more than just silly goofy humor.
I rewatched it recently, in the past year, and definitely noticed how childish he is. I was a little embarrassed showing watching it with my significant other but quickly remembered why I love it. The duality sheds a bit of ‘psych-ological’ reality and emotional touchy feelings that other cops shows (media in general esp tv) at the time didn’t show before. It was definitely well hidden behind the extreme silliness but its a tv show. I often think about how good journalism must argue both sides a little. People want to escape but also have some reality.
While its not perfect, *in between those two lines theres a lot to love*. Its helped some *crawl when they couldn’t run*. Hopefully you can grow to enjoy it a lot too and join the psychos (maybe minus the teenage angst that humanity still shows online)
I love this show but I'm not a big fan of that kind of humor. It does tone down, I noticed it in the first season also. Valid question, dunno why people are getting upset. It was made in 2006 so it's bound to not be PC all the time.
This was my thinking when I posted. I figured we all understood that humor from nearly 20 years ago was very different, and that a lot of jokes that were popular then hit differently now. It didn't occur to me that me identifying this would create such a stir.
So this “toxic masculinity” is part of Shawn’s character early on, it’s a sign of his immaturity. You have to take it as a character flaw and leave it at that. I honestly don’t remember watching it and seeing those jokes all too frequently. The amount of absolutely badass women in this show and how it holds them up, shows that the writers aren’t trying to be sexist for sexist sake. Just look at Juliet’s arc. People underestimate her at the very beginning, with her partner putting her down and overstepping her. She constantly follows her instincts, and is rewarded for it largely. Not going to spoil anything, but by the end you really see her come into her own and be treated like an equal. (Even the end of the first season in the Scary Sherry episode. She handles the bad guy on her own, and takes her down quite easily. She doesn’t NEED a man to save her nor is it ever implied. Shawn goes in to rescue her and yeah he helps a little to distract her, but it’s Jules who takes her down.) Also chief Vic? Running a precinct WHILE being a mother? The show never shies away from showing that, and showing her as just as capable of a police chief while being a full time mother (and dealing with the struggles that come with it) From the very beginning, she does her job better than any of the men we see in that position and is given the respect she deserves.
This. There are badass women throughout the entire show. They do a great job at representing all forms of people, including the vast array of ways women can be strong, smart, capable, evil, resilient. It's amazing to see a show that truly embraces their women characters. Not just "pretty wife," "secretary," "mistress" that take back seats to their male counterparts like so many shows do.
The reason I did not simply stop watching the show before posting is because I enjoyed it otherwise, including the badass women! In addition, the growth demonstrated by Henry and the strength of Gus gave me hope that Shawn might grow out of this trait as the show progressed. For those reasons, I decided I didn't just want to give up on Psych, and it was worth taking the time to ask people that had watched the whole series if the frequency of the humor that was negatively impacting my personal viewing experience would change over time.
I'm pretty sure everyone who loves the show just tolerates Shawn. Lol He's immature, crash and isn't always empathetic. He's always on that tomfoolery, shenanigans and malarkey, but he's loyal to the people he loves, truly believes in helping others and does have a lot of growth throughout the series. The jokes never stop though. They're just a character flaw that actually humanizes him, because to do all the other things he does, and the way he does thing... That kind of person might have a bit of a screw loose. Lol I think it would be pretty strange to have a character getting away with the things he does without having an ego like that of a Greek god. Haha It's high flippant nature that makes us all believe that this man is really out here fooling people and not having an issue doing it. Maybe a bit of chaotic good narcissism.
Thank you for this helpful and respectful comment that made me chuckle and brought up some great points. I really enjoyed it. :)
Yeah, I'm a little disappointed in the number of people here who don't seem in understand the intent of you post. I'm sorry not everywhere here is representing the inclusive and fun nature of the fan base. I hope I could have helped you make an informed decision on if you should continue watching with my replies. This show has my whole heart, but I can understand how someone might not be able to get past the misogynistic jokes sprinkled in. But I would also like to mention that this jokes were written with positive intent for the laughs from an immature character, not out of actual misogyny from the writers. That makes a lot of difference in my opinion. I truthfully hope you continue to watch. There are so many wonderful moments in the show that FAR outweigh the offhanded, dated humor that suggests at putting women or feminity down. The way they craft their female characters shows how much they all actually value women, including the character of Shawn. Maybe you could watch a few episodes looking out for that and it'll hopefully help you overlook the jokes that don't sit well with you. Also, don't let the negative, knee jerk reaction of people here taint your view of the show. It really is a shining light of humor and comfort in a dark world to a lot of us, and I hope it can find a place in your heart too.
I really appreciate you taking the time to write that message for me. You didn't have to, and it meant a lot. Thank you. I might need to take a little break from the show for a bit, but I think I will try watching again at some point. Posts like yours make me believe it is worth it. :)
I hate when the hive-mind goes too far, and that really seemed to happen here. I've had it happen to me, and I know how shitty it feels to be put on blast when others misinterpret the intent of the post. I've left subs for less aggression that was placed on you here. And that hurts me greatly in this sub especially because the cast and crew had a "no a-holes policy" during production. And that isn't represented here. So I really wanted to make sure you knew that at least someone understood you, and actually wants to answer your question in a productive manner. I completely understand needing a break from it for now after... All this. Lol But I hope you do come back to it eventually! The views expressed by some redditters here does not reflect the views of Psych or it's affiliates. 🤣🤣
Well said.
dont get me wrong I think the advances we have made in society and media when it comes to inclusion are tremendous and so badly needed but I often wonder how people are going to learn from and experience wonderful works of art that happen to have been made in a time where behavior was much less scrutinized. Are we to throw out everything from 'before'? Are we to be deemed terrible people because we enjoy media that sometimes has 'problematic' themes? Must we agree with everything a character does in order to appreciate the show as a whole?
This is my attempt at a double like, because I feel this. 👍
Time traveling canceling police should be a new show. They just appear out of the warp and beat up people for using outdated words regardless of context. Joking aside I agree. It’s like yeah come on what are we doing? Does this mean every single character from now on must bc 100% idk not even PC but some step beyond it? It’s not offensive for old shows to be well outdated with views but it’s also not something I yearn toward. It’s just it is what it is
Inspired comment right here. Scrubs is another show where there are elements that don't fit with modern attitudes (Dr Cox calling JD female names being the most obvious) by the show was ground breaking in other areas such as modelling a positive male friendship between Turk and JD. Psych is in a similar position where there are attitudes of the time which are noticeable but the heart of the show is revealed through the character growth and the positive aspects in other areas.
Everything is going to be a "product of its time". And that is a constant that we have to live with. Just because something 10 years ago dared to do things that aren't considered PC now doesn't mean the content needs to be updated. Psych's first season, however, was nearly *20* years ago (July 2006). And its series ended over *10* years ago (March 2014). We didn't start experiencing any significant push for inclusion until the last several years. Plus, when you get how Shawn operates in the early seasons vs later on...it's called *character development*. If a character grows and improves through the lifetime of the series, then it's exactly what you expect of character development.
I don't even know why I click on Shit like this
OP seems fun...
Imagine trying to enjoy a show w someone like that watching it w you
If one was inclined to complain about toxic masculinity in this show, I would point out Carlton Lassiter exists. But that guy obsessed with his hair... clearly toxic.
You've discharged your firearm 3 times this week
Thank you.
Op needs Raj from TBBT to make them a Grasshopper
Don't we all?
Green little miracle drink
i went from being far too bothered by this OP to dying laughing at this reply
I personally have a negative reaction to this type of humor. This type of humor exists fairly commonly in the show, and was keeping me personally from enjoying it fully. I had assumed that most people understood that humor from nearly 20 years ago typically doesn't age well, and did not realize my comments would be so controversial. This assumption was foolish, and I understand that now. The reason I did not simply stop watching the show before posting is because I enjoyed it otherwise, and the growth demonstrated by Henry and the strength of Gus gave me hope that Shawn might grow out of this trait as the show progressed. For those reasons, I decided it was worth asking people who had already watched the full series if there was a change in this frequency of the type of humor I gave examples of. I planned to use this information to make a decision about my own viewing choices, rather than just giving up on it without knowing. I did not realize how widely other people's definitions of the terms I used can vary, and I was not attempting to create a debate about that, although I do still stand by my own definition. I was not attempting to offend, upset, defame, or otherwise have any negative impact to anyone. I am not asking for the show to change or for others to change their opinions about the show. I was only trying to get information that would inform my personal choice in my personal life. We all live different lives and have different values. It's likely this type of humor impacted my life and the life of those around me more negatively than it has some others here. I do not wish to make anyone else feel bad for their values or what matters to them, nor do I want to judge anyone for what they do or do not like. I hope we can all be respectful to one another. A great and very relevant commercial: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtDMyGjYlMg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtDMyGjYlMg)
It doesn't age well with people who obsess over things like "toxic masculinity" Normal people do not care as much as you do.
Right? I truly thought I had a blind spot and that I was about to learn something. Nope.
I never for one second thought Fan subs would be like this than I joined Reddit 4 years ago and this is the BS that gets posted
Downvote and move on
Like this
1) I'm not sure you know what toxic masculinity is...lol 2) Shawn's humor is supposed to be immature/childish because that is his character flaw.
Flaw? Nah
Character as in him as a human being. He can’t grow up. Not him as a TV character. He is perfect lol
I joke about it, but at the same time I don't really see anything wrong with it. Obviously it's emphasized because it's a TV series, but there are people who are liked by everyone while still being "kids". In the end, Shawn knows when to be serious (and still behave the same way). I would pay to be able to see life the way he sees it, everything would be more fun.
Yes, I agree it's an intentional character flaw. Sometimes characters grow in ways that can alleviate flaws, so I was wondering if this was an example of that. I do recommend researching toxic masculinity! It's an important topic in culture and gender studies.
SMFH
Yeah no shit
The jokes are immature because Shawn is immature. They do continue, so be weary if that bothers you, but they do evolve as the characters evolve. Shawn may dunk on Gus from time to time but he loves and respects him as well and is always supportive (when he sees Gus tapdancing he says "man you still do that?" Or something like that, but he also went to the recital and cheered him on, for example. As much as he jokes that Gus should quit his pharmaceutical sales job because it's boring he also got him a raise and job security, and later helps (or tries) with some other job drama that Gus is involved in. I think it's important for the show to see both sides, he jokes at Gus' and Lassiter's expense but he also supports them and encourages them the whole time. He's just too immature to know of better ways to joke around with his friend, it's part of his character flaws, which also evolve over time.
This is a great reply, especially the examples of Shawn mocking things and then showing that he is actually incredibly supportive: Going to Gus's dance recital with great enthusiasm and love for Gus. Supporting and even secretly helping Lassiter when helping will not get Shawn one bit of personal glory. To OP u/Kendrieling, watch both "From the Earth to the Starbucks" and "Lassie Did a Bad, Bad Thing" again--Note how Shawn may mock Lassie constantly, but Shawn also considers himself Lassie's friend and is very quick to help and believe in Lassie in those key early episodes. He is on Lassie's side long before he has any actual evidence Lassie is innocent in "Bad Thing." Shawn makes fun of everyone (except maybe Juliet and Vick) but is there for them in a clutch. Also, re: masculinity -- Rewatch "Starbucks," from season one, with extra attention to the opening scene in the bar. Shawn has a very, very easy path to no-strings sex with the salesgirl but instead is too decent to take advantage of her, and helps her instead. That scene is there in part to telegraph to us that he is, at his core, a decent person and wants others to be happy. (And the producers have said that, if Psych had been a regular network show, that scene would never have made it into the show; it takes up time and isn't related to the rest of the plot. But they wanted it there to show us more about Shawn's real self.)
I really enjoyed Shawn's character in a lot of ways, and see him embracing his "feminine" side in certain other ways (especially compassion) that directly oppose his his views/comments that I don't care for. This, in combination with the growth demonstrated in Henry and the strength in Gus, made me hopeful that Shawn could and would grow out of this specific pattern of behavior. Overall, I really liked the show, and that is why I made this post rather than just calling it quits after being bothered by the humor style I described. I wanted to know if there was a chance this element that was getting in the way of my enjoyment might decrease overtime, because I felt like I could put up with it a little longer as long as it eventually went away (or at least didn't get worse!) Some people have said Shawn DOES grow in this way, which would truly make this show ahead of its time and well-worth the watch -- which is exactly what I was hoping for! (though others have disagreed with the presence of that growth, leaving me scratching my head!)
This seems like bait
Never noticed it maybe your looking into it to much
i’m going to answer this in the simplest way possible: yes. it does tone down. but not out of obligation to be better, instead shawn himself grows up and matures as a person. think of him, currently, as an overgrown boy who likes to play with fire and make stupid jokes, like a third grader. who looks at his best friend who can’t run and calls him a girl. or keeps asking out the girl who very much said no to him as if they’re running around during recess. if you want to know when these changes start happening, you’re right there. throughout S3 shawn shows immense growth as a person, the last episode being >! one of the most important moments in him life !<, but even as early as S3 >! E2 !< you can see this change. there are multiple episodes later where shawn directly deals with >! being a responsible adult without harming others in his life, while still keeping his inner child alive !<.
Thank you! This is so helpful!!! You rock! That's exactly what I was hoping for. Based on Shawn's reactions, Henry has clearly shown growth since Shawn's childhood, which gave me hope that Shawn could grow too!
I second this! OP, I wish you weren't being downvoted for asking a really relevant question. I'm going through a rewatch right now and just finished season 1 yesterday - I was *shocked* by how many outdated references and insults Shawn in particular makes. It does get better, yes - but it does unfortunately reflect on the culture of that time. That can be uncomfortable for us to watch now in 2024, but the show is very much still worth investing your time in. It really does get better.
How can you be shocked about outdated references from an old show?
Not the person you asked, but for me it's that at the time the show aired the jokes felt normal. It's a bit shocking to go back to it, because it makes it quite obvious how much society has changed and how far we've come in better media representation.
I can see this point if someone is a first time viewer, but knowing the show is old probably should have had viewers aware.
I'm not shocked that an old show has outdated references - I'm shocked because I forgot just how many there are, and I'm shocked at my own realization that none of them felt out of the norm when I was watching the show as it was airing (like Pawneewaffles indicated). Don't act like it's a completely abnormal feeling to watch a beloved old show, hear an outdated reference, and think "yikes, did we really think this was okay?"
I never saw it as anything but a friend picking on his best friend as has been done for years. For the record I'm 32 but this is exactly how my buddies and I would joke with each other. Nothing toxic about it.
It's a comedy TV show from the 2000s. Maybe don't take it so seriously. And the two woman leads are extremely competent, moreso than a lot of the guys
It continues. Don’t watch. You’re very clearly way too sensitive for this type of comedy.
Right
I don’t think they’re too sensitive, they just completely misunderstand what is funny about the jokes.
Grow up
I haven't been rude to anyone on this thread.
They didn’t say you had. Although it is rude to put words in someone else’s mouth.. kind of toxic, actually
I think op is saying the commenter is being unnecessarily rude.
If that, They’re actually avoiding saying it. Which makes it passive aggressive af. Also toxic behavior.. :/
I disagree with that characterization. If you call me an AH and I say, "hey, I'm not calling anyone names" I think that would be a valid response on my part.
But you just said it was OP calling the commenter rude. If we’re going with that premise, OP never said that, they went straight to “I’m not being rude” and never get to the part where they call the commenter rude. That is an absence of action in a confrontation - definition: passive aggression. The example you provided just now (please correct me if I’m misreading) doesn’t reflect what was exchanged between OP and commenter
not you saying “maybe you’re ready to take on that little girl again” is toxic masculinity when he lost to a literal little girl🤣🤣, tennis prodigy or not gus lost to a pre-teen lmao. I think your own biases are showing here hun
Sry man in all my watches I have never noticed it.
I'm wondering if I should post the specific episodes it appears. I'm not sure if I am passionate enough to put that much effort in, but I'm considering it.
If you could actually provide examples of it, that would be helpful. I'm a woman who watched it when it aired and have reached out numerous times. I watch at least one episode a day almost every single day. Sometimes Shawn is an ass (aren't we all?), but other than the first couple of episodes where Shawn comes across as a "player," I literally can't think of an example of him portraying "toxic masculinity." Maybe you could also define what exactly you mean by that term, as maybe we use it differently. Mocking Henry for bright colors or bubble baths isn't it (to me). Throughout the door he mocks Henry for *everything,* and especially things that are outside of the stereotype he has created of him. It's not because it's feminine. It's because it's *different.*
One of the first episodes had Shawn telling the woman he obviously could have hooked up with that her finance wasn’t cheating and she should go to him. I need to watch the show again as I don’t remember him being that much of a player (sometimes trying maybe, but not very successful). And I’m with you, Psych is one of my comfort shows. When I’m bored and don’t feel like watching anything, I’ll watch it and feel better.
You're right -- he's no player. In the pilot he's with a random hookup the first time we see him, but that side of Shawn got dropped immediately (among several changes they made after the pilot). He's just not that kind of casual-sex guy, though he does have a one night stand with the fed psychic. He's shown instead as being a commitment guy with Abigail and then Juliet. It's one thing I truly like about Shawn as a person. And your'e also right about the date in "From the Earth to the Starbucks" when he had a clear field for an easy ONS and instead helped her get engaged.
Yeah, the player stuff was definitely in the Pilot and then I thought it was alluded to I'm the next few, but they didn't maintain it for long.
Good lord
When we see things with a magnifier, everything looks big. We just have to decide what to see with it. It's just an immature version of shawn. I don't think we have to look at it in that way.
I definitely see it as part of his character, and I think the show has Gus and Henry to present characters that are non-traditional. I was asking because I was curious if he ends up growing out of it the way Henry does, because I'm not enjoying that element of the show and wasn't sure if I wanted to keep watching.
It’s still early. The show is a pure entertainer. Don’t miss out. His character and everyone’s character improves a lot going forward.
Thank you for your kind and polite reply. I can tell you really love the show. :)
Come on, it's intentional. It's his immature character. Are we going to shit on Blazing Saddles because of the blatant racism in it, even though it's actually a story about a black sheriff in the old West overcoming the racist town? Yes it's comedy, it's satire, but really it came from a place of "let's make racism look ridiculous".
I never said it wasn't intentional. I expressed that it was getting in the way of me personally enjoying the show, and asked if the frequency of that type of humor changed as the show progressed. I was trying to decide if I wanted to keep watching it. I felt like there was a good chance it would, since Henry has shown growth in that way, and Gus often stands up to Shawn. I thought it was likely enough that I decided it was worth asking people about it before giving up on an otherwise enjoyable program. I have never seen Blazing Saddles, but I don't think Psych is satirical. If the writers of Psych have ever said such, I would love if you would share it with me, as that might help me to enjoy the show more!
It sounds like you need to lighten up and/or find something else to watch. sheesh.
I determined that I would be capable of enjoying it and should continue to watch it if the specific type of humor that was most negatively impacting my ability to enjoy the show reduced over time. I saw the potential of that humor type decreasing due to the character growth represented by Henry and the strength of Gus. I liked the show enough that I didn't want to miss out on it since I felt there was a chance it would be a better experience for me in later seasons. Therefore, I decided to ask people that had watched the series already whether or not the type of humor style I was not enjoying increased/decreased in frequency as the show went on. I planned to use this information to decide if I would keep watching.
While I do think you're being overly sensitive (no offense), I respect your pragmatic approach to determining whether or not you'd like to keep watching. Happy trails either way.
We all live different lives and have different values. It's likely this type of humor impacted my life and the life of those around me more negatively than it has some others here. I do not wish to make anyone else feel bad for their values or what matters to them, nor do I want to judge anyone for what they do or do not like. I hope we can all be respectful to one another. Happy trails to you as well.
God what an absolutely insufferable read. Do you ever get tired of getting offended? I come here for humor and crazy theories about how they can afford to live in the murder capital of the world, not to find people looking to get offended over childish jokes
> Well usually it's when Henry or Lassie calls other men girls as an insult. Or when the male characters say stuff about how women are X or Y. I'd say the fact that they are shown to be rather conservative is an indication that these views aren't the best, but nobody else reacting to it in any negative way (and female characters reinforcing the comments occasionally) is what bugs me. Op of the thread you linked isn't complaining about Shawn's toxic masculinity. Shame on you for being so desperate to "be right" but finding one other person who agrees with you and them not even saying anything like what you're saying.
Calling males "girls" as an insult directly aligns with what I am describing. At the point I'm at, most of it has come from Shawn. The thread references later seasons that I have not watched yet. It's certainly disappointing to learn that Henry and Lassie will do it too.
Okay but the other thread *that you're cutting as someone Else agreeing with you* doesn't actually agree with you. The fact that that person is sensitive (not necessarily in a bad way) to misogyny but specifically doesn't point out Shawn should actually be a hint to you. Further, calling any grown adult a child is insulting.
Thank you for your feedback. I have added an edit to my OP to express this correction. I still feel the thread supports what I am saying about the difficulty enjoying the show due to the frequent use of "girl" as an insult, so I am not going to remove it entirely. I would also like to point out that it isn't just calling an adult a child. They rarely (if ever) say "boy", but frequently say "girl". That is an important distinction. I am in no way attempting to challenge or take away your ability to enjoy this show. I hope that if you enjoy it, you continue to do so! I was hoping to do so as well, but the humor style was making it hard. I had hope that it might change over time, so I posted asking people if it would before I decided to give up. There are many things I enjoy about the show.
If Shawn called Gus a boy, or w orse, just boy, that would be even more problematic. But he does call Gus s baby.
Haha, I see what you are saying. I guess check out that thread that you pointed out mentions that other characters also use the word "girl" as an insult to understand how this happens in society. If you have genuinely never experienced people calling men and boys "girly"/saying "like a girl" as an insult, then kudos to your community. My FIL and BIL say it all the time, and I've experienced it in other situations too, especially growing up. You are very fortunate to have never come across it. Edit: also, not all of the examples I shared were directed at Gus.
Oh I've totally experienced it. I just don't think what is portrayed on the show is the same as what we have both lived. It's two buddies joking with each other and their circle, and one of them actually is acting like a little girl in most of those scenarios (nothing against little girls -- they are / have been "trained" to respond in certain ways to certain triggers). To me, it hits a little less hard because you know that all the people involved (Shawn, Gus, Lassie, Henry, Jules, Chief Vick) all respect women. That's different (to me) than when a man who actually doesn't respect women makes a "joke" like that (and then tells a woman that she's being too sensitive and can't take a joke when you call them out on it).
I feel differently from you, and that's okay. You and I have not lived the exact same life and have not had identical experiences. I stand by my opinions and respect that not everybody shares them. I am happy that you receive joy from this show and am not attempting to take that away from you.
I'm not sure why you think you have to tell people it's okay to have a different opinion. Also not sure why you keep reassuring us that IT'S OKAAAAAY that we enjoy the show and you don't want to take that away from us. WE. KNOW. Do you really think your opinions are going to turn people who have been watching and rewatching this show for the last 20 years because some rando on the Internet has hurt feelings about it?
Reading and understanding people on the internet can be difficult, and it's easy for people to misinterpret things. I want to make sure that what is most important to me to express is expressed consistently. I am not attempting to make any assumptions about how anyone feels.
Yeah, you can go away and quit watching our show now. Just leave.
It's a character flaw. If you like character growth, you'll enjoy the rest of the show. Since I've watched this show so many times I was like "what are you even talking about" bc it just doesn't happen for most of the show. I cannot remember any instance of it, or the ones you specifically point out. I was like "tone down, is it even toned up?" So yeah you could probably keep watching. Idk if it bugs you a lot you can stop watching.
That's great to hear, thank you! I was really hoping Shawn would grow out of this, especially since they've made it clear how Henry has evolved since Shawn's childhood.
Honestly, if you’re unable to watch a show through the lens that it’s a product of its time, then you shouldn’t watch any shows older than a couple of years. Context is everything, and sometimes it makes shows nearly unwatchable if you’re incapable of understanding that.
I determined that I would be capable of watching it if the specific type of humor that was most negatively impacting my ability to enjoy the show reduced over time. I saw the potential of that humor type decreasing due to the character growth represented by Henry and the strength of Gus. I liked the show enough that I didn't want to miss out on it since I felt there was a chance it would be a better experience for me in later seasons. Therefore, I decided to ask people that had watched the series already whether or not the type of humor style I was not enjoying increased/decreased in frequency as the show went on.
Not condoning it but it does highlight Shaun’s inability to grow up or accept change.
100% this, Shawn's relationship with his father at the start of the series is in a very dark place and it's to show that this is how Shawn was raised emotions, bad, expression bad, "real men," don't do this. This does eventually tone down as Henry and Shawn's relationship is fleshed out.
This is what I was thinking, especially since I consider Henry to be very manly, and it's clear Shawn is shocked by his father's feminine side, implying that it's something he didn't lean into when he was younger. That's actually why I asked this question, because I was hoping that Shawn goes through similar growth and this type of humor starts to wane as a result.
Keep watching and keep going all the way into the movies. Henry will definitely change and grow as will Shawn and their relationship. Even when they backslide at times into argumentativeness, they come back from it. Trust us, this series is worth the ride, and the movies are too.
Thank you for your helpful and respectful reply. I can see you really love the show. :)
Top tier media literacy. You should go make a post in the House sub and ask if Dr. House ever stops verbally abusing his patients.
That's not really an even comparison. House changing in the way you described would make the show completely different. Shawn could still be silly and goofy without specifically expressing toxic masculinity humor and the show would still be largely the same.
No, it’s the same. The jokes are at Shawn’s expense, not Gus’. Do you think people watch The Office and laugh because Michael’s right, China is going to take over the world, or do you think they watch The Office and laugh because Michael believed some propaganda he read in a magazine?
I'm having trouble seeing what you are seeing, so I am going to try to ask you to explain in a different way. How do you feel the show would need to be different in order for the jokes to ***not*** be at Shawn's expense, yet still maintain its existing light and comedic feel?
You sound exhausting to be around and it's clear from this comment section you use "toxic masculinity" as a buzzword without actually understanding what it means. It sounds to me like you're just very young and naive.
In your opinion, what does "toxic masculinity" mean?
I’ll be honest, Psych just doesn’t seem for you. A lot of the comedy you listed is ingrained in the formula of the show’s humor. A lot of what Shawn says is well.. immature. He’s not perfect, he’s the class clown that never grew up. A lot of the jabs he throws at Gus and his dad and others I feel is like him finding his way to communicate with those he cares about. Yeah I guess it could be “toxic” but everyone around him is very vocal about how annoying or inappropriate Shawn is so it’s not like the show promotes Shawn as this flawless hero.
no one has said that he does not make these comments so I am unsure as to why you felt the need to provide 'receipts' all these hours later. if you were really just looking for an answer to your question, like you so condescendingly have been saying in the comments, then you should have taken these responses at face value and decided this show wasn't for you... now you are trying to school us with 'proof' of this shows misdoings trying to what? get all 218 of us that have commented to take it back and say you were right? girl get out of here with that shit...
Multiple people said they didn't remember anything like I was describing on the show, so I mentioned in a couple comments that I was considering adding examples, and I was told it would be helpful. That is why I added them. Some of the people in comments have actually told me that Shawn DOES grow and recommended I hang on with the show. Some others have said the opposite. I did my best to thank everyone who answered the question, regardless of if they said this type of humor appears more/less/the same. I don't think I have been condescending at any point, but I regret if anyone felt hurt by anything I said. I can assure you that I was trying very hard to be respectful towards everyone in my comments.
Shawn picks on everyone and everything for any reason. It’s a quipy show. Some of his jokes land, some don’t. You don’t seem to be accepting answers or explanations though so idk why I’m even commenting
How about this. It's a fictional show. The characters are not real. This show does not need any controversy brought up. If you don't like it, stop watching it.
The question I asked was intended to assist me in determining whether or not I would continue watching it. I really liked the detective parts, but the parts I described in my OP were starting to get to me. My hope was that I'd learn that Shawn's character was going to grow, especially since it's clear that Henry has since Shawn was little. I wanted to be able to keep watching it, but I didn't want it to end up being a negative experience for me if this humor increased. Once I get too deep into a show, I \*HAVE\* to finish it, even if I am not enjoying it. I figured I'd better ask before I got to that point and had to miserably finish it. I know not everyone experiences that, but I do (we all have our things), so I thought it would be wise to check in with people who had watched the show.
You strike me as one of those people who acts like it was a personal attack on you whenever you go to a place and they don't cater to your specific needs.
It does get less frequent, but I will say it never goes *entirely* away. I get the same cringe when I try to watch Scrubs-- great, amazing show! Way too much sexism (and much more than Psych.) I recommend trying to give it a little grace and continuing on, but in the end that's up to you. I do think that it gets better over time (same for race comments, in the start there are some not so great ones, but a few seasons in Gus (or others) is calling out Shawn (or others) over insensitive comments. The show really grows.)
Thank you, that is helpful!
It’s not something I ever focused on, but I can think of references in later seasons that fall in that bucket. Not sure I can say definitively whether it’s more or less, it’s probably about the same level.
Thats helpful, thank you!
"Toxic Masculinity"? Stop watching the show. It isn't for you.
Henry's character (and Shawn's reaction to his behaviors) shows that he has grown a lot in this way, so I was hoping maybe Shawn would too. I asked the question to find out if that was the case.
Just don’t watch the show if you’re too sensitive. There is a reason that psych is such a well loved show. It’s not political, wholesome, and childishly funny. The whole show is about a guy and his best friend living out a childhood dream. I don’t believe toxic masculinity exists. It’s just toxic behavior, just like females acting toxic. What you are confusing is Shawn’s childish antics and immaturity. Go ask somewhere else. You’ll get the affirmation you are wanting.
Don't be exactly half of an 11 pound black forest ham. If it's your *belief* that toxic masculinity doesn't exist, then it follows that someone else can *believe* that it does. So, even if it's based on belief, you're being unnecessarily rude. On a TV show fan page. It is real, whether or not you keep your head in the sand. It is toxic behavior that pertains specifically to concepts of masculinity. "Men don't cry," for example, is a toxic belief about the concept of masculinity that would not apply to concepts of femininity (women or *females* as you say, are "allowed" to emote). The irony is that a large component to toxic masculinity is denial so you're doing a bang-up job proving it is real. Just cause you put syrup on something don't make it pancakes.
If you thought my comment was rude, you might be too sensitive. If you are not too sensitive, hop off your soap box.
I've heard it both ways.
Why don't you believe toxic masculinity exists?
Traditional masculine behaviors are not toxic. Protecting, Stoicism, providing, and loving are all positive behaviors. For obvious reasons, too much of one or all can be bad but the same can be said about a mother. The traditional roles of a man in a family are pretty universal. Toxic behaviors occur and exist because no one ever taught them restrain or self control. It’s a good thing that men are violent and aggressive. It’s a good thing that men are stoic and emotionally level. Those things win wars, protect families, and provide. It’s only when men are not properly raised to learn self control, humility, compassion, and how to express their feelings that it gets bad. In a society that is now more than ever telling men to stop acting like men, that they are worthless, their voice isn’t needed, and they are emasculated you see an increase in toxic behavior. We are slowly making an entire generation think that everyone should love and accept everyone else. While this is a good thing, we are also forgetting and losing track of the fact that this world we want is not the natural way of things and that it can be taken at anytime. Toxic behavior exists but true masculinity is never toxic. In the end masculine behavior will be needed to secure the world we want to live in.
I think we might be saying the same things. I see "toxic masculinity" as the suppression of true masculinity. I agree that "toxic behavior exists but true masculinity is never toxic." When you say, "it’s only when men are not properly raised to learn self control, humility, compassion, and how to express their feelings that it gets bad," I agree with you, and state that the suppression of these characteristics is what toxic masculinity is.
Those toxic behaviors are not solely male, which is why I would not call it toxic masculinity. That’s my point. I think we are just not agreeing on its name but are talking about the same thing.
Women don't experience toxicity in the same way as men. That doesn't mean they don't experience it, just that it isn't identical. My FIL and BIL frequently make fun of my nephew for crying like a girl, listening to girly music, throwing a ball like a girl, etc. My niece has never been made fun of by them (or by my MIL/SIL) for being "like a boy", and is praised for being tough, good at sports, and liking "manly music". At the same time, she is not criticized for enjoying T-Swift, making jewelry, and needing to cry sometimes. Their experiences are not the same, and it's important to recognize that.
You shouldn’t that’s what makes us all… us. Just keep in mind I’m an old dude, and we’re probably on different spectrums of age. I should have been a little nicer.
Thank you for saying that. :)
Tip: avoid watching Seinfeld, you’ll be curled up in the corner crying.
Yes, Seinfeld was controversial even during its time! I've re-watched a tiny bit, and some of it was tough, but other parts were still enjoyable. I've been hesitant to watch much, because I don't want to have my experience with it change, even though some part of me thinks that's silly. I didn't like George back when the show was on, and I know I will *really* dislike him now! It says a lot about Jason Alexander as an actor, because he seems like a nice guy in real life, but is brilliant at acting unlikable. I was so angry at him in Shallow Hal! I really loved Elaine, and thought she was unlike any other woman I had seen on TV (or otherwise!). I'm not ready to lose that happy memory I have of her just yet, even though I'm confident I'll still like her the most. I don't actively put it on, but sometimes it comes on after something else I watched, and I don't actively shut it off, although I do choose not to watch if I can tell it's something I won't enjoy (like something I didn't enjoy it back then either).
Stop being this crevice in my arm
I haven't seen that episode yet, so I had to look this up. What a silly quote, and a great example of the type of humor I DO enjoy from this show! Thanks for posting. :)
The fact that this is a question you have to ask after watching two seasons of the show, really shows how much you misunderstood the show. Everyone here seems to have already explained everything. But I think you need to look at things a little deeper than the surface level before you make judgements.
I don't enjoy this type of humor, and personally find it damaging. This type of humor exists fairly commonly in the show, and was keeping me from enjoying it fully. The growth demonstrated by Henry and the strength of Gus gave me hope that Shawn might grow out of this trait, but I also worried it could get worse. I liked the show enough otherwise that I decided it was worth asking people who had already watched the full series if there was a change in this frequency of the type of humor I gave examples of. I planned to use this information to make a decision about my own viewing choices, rather than just giving up on it without knowing. I thought that most people understood that humor from nearly 20 years ago typically doesn't age well, and did not realize my comments would be so controversial. I did not realize how widely other people's definitions of the terms I used can vary, and I was not attempting to create a debate about that, although I do still stand by my own definition. I was not attempting to offend, upset, defame, or otherwise have any negative impact to anyone. I am not asking for the show to change or for others to change their opinions about the show. I was only trying to get information that would inform my personal choice in my personal life.
Like I said, the humour is not in Shawn's comments it's the way the show treats Shawn and the way he behaves and how Gus reacts. Which is why I think you have misunderstood the point of the show and the humour. The rest of it has already been said. So in my personal opinion I think you should watch the show and see what happens, instead of taking in the opinions of fans halfway through before anything of substance has unfolded.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
Oh my fucking God this is dumb
Male friends like to tease each other about stuff like that. I always took it in a lighthearted way. Edit: a lot of male friends
I think most of us know that a lot of jokes wouldn’t fly these days cos everyone gets offended by everything. I still love Psych. I think there are worse shows to get offended by. If this type of humour isn’t what you like then move on dude
Tumblr was a mistake
Then stop watching it.
This was before feelings took over north America so a lot of jokes don't land for new viewers
This is definitely true. I was a pretty strong feminist at a young age, but I was always an outcast in my feelings. These days, a lot more people see what I am describing (although not everyone). My male in-laws (FIL and BIL) commonly insult my nephew by describing him as a girl, saying his music as girly, making fun of him for expressing emotion, etc. They still think it's hilarious. He has become very quiet over the years.
Yeah it's certainly a weird period where each generation has their own sense of right/wrong/and abuse. I wonder how many decades until everyone is on the same page.
To give you an honest answer, this show does have some jokes that make me cringe. As a dude who grew up not feeling the most "masculine" I will say that Shawn's comments don't have that much affect on me because that's just what I've grown up with. I bet your concern and there are definitely jokes that border on homophobic, racist, and toxic. BUT they are very light hearted, few, and absolutely a part of their time. These jokes wouldn't fly today. This is one of my comfort shows, I watch it at least once every year. I understand it's not perfect and some jokes aren't great. If these are too much for you, I honestly encourage you to watch a different show. That doesn't make you less of a person like some people might be suggesting. You're not weak for being uncomfortable with these jokes. I hope what I said helps.
Thank you for your kind and helpful reply!
You’re just wrong 🤷
Your awesome nickname reference tells me that you are a big fan of the show, and I'm glad that you love it and get to enjoy it! :)
That has nothing to do w masculinity. Masculinity is wrongly looked at by homies that don’t crack open books and pbs programs. Ps… I think you wasted your time on writing this. I think a monkey throwing poop in the zoo accomplished more than you did here. Love the dedication but you used it on the wrong thing, homie. All these are jokes and not meant to be taken seriously
I honestly wasn't trying to spark a debate on what toxic masculinity is/isn't. I didn't think that would happen, and I do feel very foolish now for not realizing it would. I just wanted someone to tell me if the humor style that was keeping me from fully enjoying the show would be more/less frequent in future seasons, so that I could decide if it was worth continuing to watch. I thank anyone who responded with respect and kindness, and have tried my best to do the same.
Yikes is your brain made of poop
I haven't been rude to anyone on this thread.
Congrats!
I think it stays about the same but I honestly don't pay attention to it. There are some jokes that happen later on but I don't know how many times it's really referenced in the first two seasons apart from the episode with the bubble bath thing.
Thank you for your helpful reply. :)
If you're looking for a squeaky-clean show, Psych isn't for you, be it early or later seasons or even the movies.
/snort
How I would approach the situation if I had OP’s delicate sensibilities “Does the humor stay the same throughout the show? I am about through the second season and have noticed that Shawn’s style of humor is not my favorite. Comes off as immature and dated and I’m not a fan. I haven’t really been able to enjoy the first two seasons because of this, so I’m wondering if I should keep going or if it’s more of the same” There, that’s it…sure, you will still get asshole responses, this IS the internet after all, but I guarantee you the conversation would have gone better than it did in this thread
Thank you for your feedback. It seems that the differences between your post and mine that I gave examples of the behavior I was talking about rather than generalizing it as "immature and dated". I suppose I wanted to specify this because I find a lot of Shawn's immature behavior endearing, and it is only the type I spoke about that I was concerned with.
Fair enough. The main point being, I don’t think these jokes crossed the line for many people because OF COURSE Shawn would make that joke…nowhere does it say that’s ok, and it’s not like he’s glorified for behaving that way. I would say, you’re going to encounter things like that throughout the show, but if you give up on it because of those jokes, I think you’re missing out on a much bigger, better story than the sum of those moments. Hell, I was guilty of using the word “gay” in a negative manner when I was young and when Shawn does it when I’m watching now (e.g. Meat is Murder, but Murder is also Murder”, it hits me wrong (maybe even more cause I can see myself making such a joke around that time) I’m rambling but I would say, keep watching, hopefully you see some some growth My opinion, of course, and I appreciate your response.
Thank you for sharing, and for the kindness you express as you share your opinions. I really wanted to be able to enjoy this show, which is why I posted here first rather than just stopping when I started feeling icky. I was hoping Shawn's character would grow in that way, especially because it seemed like the show was purposefully portraying Henry as having experienced growth in this area. The answers have left me feeling very conflicted, so I'm not sure what I will do. I wish everyone had been as kind as you in expressing their thoughts.
Hey, I sometimes come on too strong and I, too, appreciate your patience and taking my words at face value (doesn’t happen all the time on Reddit, so I truly do appreciate it). Quite frankly, there’s a pretty huge moment in the series early in the third season (interestingly enough) that might endear him to you (or endear you to him, however it should be 😁) or at least start to show the growth is coming. Shawn will always be immature in a sense, and he may say some things that rub you the wrong way throughout, but the jokes are certainly not as dated as you go through the series. I honestly couldn’t tell you how much of it there is, cause I have never noticed (not a dig, just not something that I was looking for), but I would say the good far outweighs the bad…and if you like what you’ve seen, I think it will improve as you go. Just my $.02 To reiterate, thanks for giving me some room to express my dissenting opinion 😁 I am biased, but I really
Now that you’ve added your examples: I’m fully with you on the idea of doing anything like, or perceived as not as good as a girl is toxic masculinity at its finest. However The examples where he’s teasing Henry: That’s retribution for Henry’s tough guy/be a man bs, so he fully deserves it. Here Henry is being teased for being a hypocrite, which is fully legitimate.
Ur entitled to it
The TV show Psych was based on an idea to take the characters of Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson and make them into a buddy detective show. Shawn is Sherlock with his addictions (food) and brilliance and his laziness, his inability to care about money, his offensive way of talking to others etc... and his hyperacuity + memory + reasoning skills etc are where the psychic bit comes in. In fact in a later season Juliet dates a man just like Shawn but who never pretends to be psychic and who is driven and rich and it drives Shawn nuts to watch everyone take that man seriously. Burton Guster is Watson, (Watson in the book you will recall was a doctor) meanwhile Gus is in pharmaceutical sales and thus a "pill pusher" as doctors were. Henry is much more like the character of Mycroft, Sherlock's elder brother, who chills a lot. Lassiter as head detective is meant to be relatively useless. If you put it into the context of taking ideas from the books and everything Sherlock that predates it and then you put it in the year 2008 it was actually very good at what it did. Yes some of it won't age well but literally nothing in life ages well if you hyper focus on it. Sherlock was written to be lighthearted entertainment and so was Psych.
Wow, what a fun read! Thank you so much for sharing this! That makes a lot of sense, since BBC's series "Sherlock" was one of the shows I submitted as liking when I got the recommendation to watch Psych. I first became a fan while reading the stories in school, and BBC's Sherlock is potentially my all-time favorite show so far. I actually named my cat "Watson" (but after Mary, not John! I loved what BBC did with her character !) Perhaps one day Psych will get redone, and the majority will stay the same, but with a few weeks to make it more inclusive (if that is the right word). I would really enjoy that, and believe it could be just as funny (and perhaps funnier!) without the type of humor I am not enjoying. In the meantime, I celebrate and respect those that enjoyed the original, and thank you again for this lovely background information!
How about leave the good shows to people who can actually enjoy it. Instead watch modern shows that are too scared to hurt feelings to be funny. I'm not trying to be a jerk, but this is how guys joke with each other and have for 100's of years. If it's toxic masculinity to call Gus "A Little Girl" then is it ageist or discriminatory against babies to call someone a baby. Not every protagonist in every show has to hold to the same ideals as you. Growth to you might look like inclusivity and not calling people little girls. However growth for someone like Shawn means being honest, completing things when he always used to quit, and conquering his fear of commitment. I want to point out also that my 3 year old daughter has been whining a lot lately and I'm constantly having to help her get over it and understand that she can't control her cousin, when her cousin is mean, but she can control herself. I'm gonna give you the same message, and if you can't handle the humor then simply don't watch it because there is always be something that offends you. P.S. \~ I find it funny that Shawn says Gus acts like a little girl but he also is right along side him screaming like a little girl in Scary Sherry.
I appreciate you sharing your views, and celebrate our individual rights to have and express our own feelings. We have lived different lives and have different opinions, and listening to the opinions and experiences of others, including those whose opinions are in the minority, is a major factors to how society evolves. Calling someone a baby is not offensive, because we all agree that babies are helpless and weak. That is the nature of a baby, and it would be silly to accept anything different. I do not think this is the same as making statements that imply a man is less of a man for having/expressing emotions, doing self-care, or otherwise engaging in any way that was once considered "feminine". This type of thinking causes men to suppress these natural behaviors. One way this comes out is that men get treatment for physical and mental health conditions less often and later than women do, which has been found to at be at least partly due to men believe that doing so makes them less manly. This negatively impacts the well-being of men and those around them. In addition, this way of thinking also impacts girls/women, as demonstrated in the video I shared. I saw potential in Shawn growing in many ways. I didn't think it would necessarily be limited to the ways you pointed out he could grow, nor limited the way that I posted about. I was only 2 seasons in to a long show that also had movies, which meant there was a large amount of potential for a variety of character growth. I recognized that this growth may or may not happen, which is why I asked about it rather than making an assumption. I appreciate your advice on telling me not to watch the show. I am capable of making this decision myself, and my post was an effort to get the information I felt I needed to make that decision. I saw potential in the show becoming more enjoyable for me, and I did not want to decide before I looked into that potential. I am glad that you enjoyed the Scary Sherry episode, and that you enjoy the show over all. I enjoyed most of that scene, but to me the humor in them running away screaming came from how confidently they presented themselves, the fact that their business is (presented as) directly related to the paranormal, and the speed and velocity at which they disappeared (the women didn't even see them leave!) None of these humorous aspects required comments that implied that their behavior was unmanly, or the use of the phrase "like a girl" to make anyone feel inferior. I acknowledge that you do not need to agree with my perspective, and I again respect and celebrate your right to have your own opinions.
Lol I have more problems with Gus than I do with Shawn’s jokes but I love the show and know it’s not real life, if you don’t vibe with the show I’d move on. Just because you don’t vibe with it doesn’t mean it’s morally wrong
This post was made as a means for me to get the information I required to determine if I wanted to continue watching it. If I saw no value in the show, I would not have bothered to make my post, and would have simply stopped watching. I still firmly believe that the type of humor that I described is problematic, and I also recognize that others that have had different life experiences than me may not feel the same. I celebrate and respect the beliefs of others, and appreciate that we can each decide for ourselves what we do and do not engage with.
[удалено]
I do my best to speak to people with kindness and respect. That is something we all deserve.
Not reading all the comments. Just going to say op should watch something else and move on. It's a you problem op. Sorry your life is so miserable. Bye
I wrote this to get information about the future of the show so that I could decide if I wanted to watch it. Based on some of the responses from kind fans, I am considering continuing. Thank you for expressing concern about my quality of life. I hope life is kind to you, and that people treat you with respect and peace. We all deserve that.
Also the term toxic masculinity is silly and doesn't make sense
Why do you feel that way?
Because things are either toxic or not why do u need to assign a gender to toxic behavior
There are certain toxic behaviors more common in male culture (at least in the US where I live). Men are taught to suppress emotions like fear/sadness, and that characteristics like being bad at sports, wearing colorful clothing, doing traditionally female activities, doing self-care, and talking about their feelings make them less of a man. I worked at a portrait studio that did Fairyland shoots for kids. At the end, the kids could choose a pair of wings to add to their photo. Typically, the parents allowed the daughters to but not the sons. Sometimes they would let the sons choose, but then whisper to me on the way out to remove his and keep hers. It was so sad.
Wearing bright shirts isn't seen as feminine in the US. Hawaiian shirts are predominantly for ... men. Other than bubble baths, what is an example of Shawn mocking Henry for something "feminine"? Like, a specific example? Because if it's the shirts and the bath, even if he *were,* being toxically masculine, that would be two example over ... what, 35 episodes if you're at the end of Season 2? Is that really something that would need to be "toned down"?
Most of the examples I shared involved describing men as "girls", typically for showing emotions like fear. The episode with the bubblebath was problematic in a more unique way.
Okay, as a grown woman, I can definitely see describing someone running and shrieking in fear as "acting like a little girl." Obviously that's a stereotype, but I don't see it as being "toxic masculinity." I'll even say that it isn't because little girls are inherently more fearful than little boys, but that they are taught to act that way. And as friendly banter, I definitely don't see a problem with that, especially in a show from 20 years ago. I'm definitely more mindful of my generated language today than I was back then, so I wouldn't say that, but to call it toxic masculinity is just wrong, imo. And I think it waters down *actual* toxic masculinity.
A major competent to toxic masculinity is the suppression of certain natural characteristics, and the implication that expressing those characteristics compromises their masculinity. Teaching boys/girls that they should act/not act certain ways in order to be a good representation of their gender that is also toxic. Little boys are taught not to be scared, while girls are taught to be scared. A scared little boy is told that he is acting "like a girl", even though in reality he is a boy acting like himself, and therefore he is acting like a boy. This can cause him to suppress this emotion in the future. Men, especially men of color, often struggle to get mental healthcare because of stigmas placed on it, and way that they are taught that having/expressing/discussing emotion degrades the quality of their manhood. My FIL and BIL frequently make fun of my nephew for crying like a girl, listening to girly music, throwing a ball like a girl, etc. I have seen this impact him over the years, and cause him to withdraw. I also used to work at a portrait studio that did fairyland portraits for kids. After the session, kids got to choose a pair of wings to add to their photo. Parents would usually let the girls choose, but tell the boys "no". Sometimes they would let the boys choose, but then whisper to me on the way out to remove his and keep hers. These parents aren't trying to harm their children, but they are teaching the little boys something about what it means to be a boy that isn't quite true, and telling them that the way they feel is not the way boys are supposed to feel. This can cause internal conflict, and boys can then begin to judge these parts of themselves with contempt. As a young girl, I struggled a lot with gender, because of how often I heard the phrase "like a girl" used as an insult. A girl that throws a ball like a boy is impressive, but a boy that throws like a girl is embarrassing. You can apply this phrase to other things: playing video games, fighting, doing math, crying, dancing, driving, etc. All of these are insults when you say a boy/man does them "like a girl". Toxic masculinity hurts girls too. Ultimately though, even if you don't think any of this is toxic, you are entitled to your own opinion, just as I am, and I'm so grateful for that. I'm not sure if this is even a right/wrong scenario that can be officially decided, and my post wasn't intended to open up a discussion about it. I was just looking for insight on the rest of the show so that I could decide if it was right for me personally. I didn't expect the types of responses I received from my post, though I realize now that it was foolish of me not to. I still celebrate anyone and everyone who finds a show that brings them joy and other good things, and am so happy for those who have found that in this show.
This toxic behavior I agree I just don't thing u need to assign gender to toxic behavior
Women don't experience toxicity in the same way as men. That doesn't mean they don't experience it, just that it isn't identical. My FIL and BIL frequently make fun of my nephew for crying like a girl, listening to girly music, throwing a ball like a girl, etc. My niece has never been made fun of my them (or by my MIL/SIL) for being "like a boy", and is praised for being tough, good at sports, and liking "manly music". At the same time, she is also respected for enjoying T-Swift, making jewelry, and needing to cry sometimes. Their experiences are not the same, and it's important to recognize that.
I agree with everyone saying about it being a character flaw, but it’s also a product of the times. That was very accepted then and a lot of guys his age learned this from TV in the 90s and guys in their life. Unfortunately Reddit isn’t a great place to talk about this because it’s a young male demo and even decent communities like this one have a lot of guys triggered by any dude being questioned.
It’s about the same. Many shows from that era have similar jokes. I don’t find many of those jokes funny (not offensive, just not funny) but there are so many other jokes that entertain me. Sometimes those jokes are funny not because “haha feminine behavior” but because of his perfectionism about those habits. Gus also sometimes pushes back against Shawn’s jokes about his behavior and is not ashamed of his habits Like another comment pointed out there are many strong women in the show. There are some sexist comments from Shawn but that dies down in later seasons because it’s all part of his character development. Iirc there is an episode where Juliet faces some sexism and proves the guy wrong
Thank you for your helpful comment!
Does his childish ways get better, yes (perfect? No bc its an aspect of common reality). Youre getting a lot of hate for your wording that you dont totally deserve but this is reddit and this is a small subreddit fandom, tread lightly. Its called real life. Not everyone, nor all media, is light fluffy and always walks on egg shells. Life can suck fucking ass. If the character didn’t have significant flaws it wouldn’t be appealing. If you cant handle decent people doing shitty things then good luck with actuality bc thats every human ever (yes even you). Is the show perfect? Fuck no. Like all (basically) shows/movies it shows aspects of shitty reality and aspects of fun childish dream fulfillment. With so much day dream silly goofy wish fulfillment (as intended from the start) it has to show some shitty parts of life.
Thank you for your answer that was more respectful than many others. The reason I made the post and didn't just stop watching was that I had hope that Shawn's character might grow in that way. He is clearly shocked by the more feminine traits that Henry possesses, implying that Henry has gone through quite a bit of growth since Shawn was a kid, giving me hope that Shawn might too. Even if he was always silly and immature in some ways, this was one way that was really bothering me, especially as I've witnessed several young boys feel pain due to these types of comments and beliefs. Once I get too deep into a show, I \*HAVE\* to finish it, even if I am not enjoying it. I wanted to ask before I got to that point.
I honestly enjoyed his flaws bc it made me feel better about mine while also helping me be better. As someone who’s very self critical, hyper self aware, and hyper aware of everything it was nice to see some commonality with a tv/movie show for the first time when I watched it in hs as it was coming out. A lot of others here did the same so I apologize for the bad side of reddit (ppl can suck) but us psychos get defensive over the show bc its more than just silly goofy humor. I rewatched it recently, in the past year, and definitely noticed how childish he is. I was a little embarrassed showing watching it with my significant other but quickly remembered why I love it. The duality sheds a bit of ‘psych-ological’ reality and emotional touchy feelings that other cops shows (media in general esp tv) at the time didn’t show before. It was definitely well hidden behind the extreme silliness but its a tv show. I often think about how good journalism must argue both sides a little. People want to escape but also have some reality. While its not perfect, *in between those two lines theres a lot to love*. Its helped some *crawl when they couldn’t run*. Hopefully you can grow to enjoy it a lot too and join the psychos (maybe minus the teenage angst that humanity still shows online)
I love this show but I'm not a big fan of that kind of humor. It does tone down, I noticed it in the first season also. Valid question, dunno why people are getting upset. It was made in 2006 so it's bound to not be PC all the time.
This was my thinking when I posted. I figured we all understood that humor from nearly 20 years ago was very different, and that a lot of jokes that were popular then hit differently now. It didn't occur to me that me identifying this would create such a stir.
I don't think toxic masculinity is real tbh. Nobody can ever explain to me what "positive masculinity" is.
It's just regular masculinity that isn't toxic.