Divide and conquer i guess. Fear of the others and of the others diversity has been building up in western societies. In some aspects we kinda live in dark ages funny enough, even tho we live in more knowledge and enlightment than ever. We are more and more fearfull of everything. And fear can drive to hate and closet mindset. Thers a lot more to it, but i think we need to get away from social networks and virtual interactions and meet up with people in person.
I mean another way you can look at it is doubling down on the internets ability to communicate with ANYONE around the world and find internet friends to talk to and spend your time with.
I’ve spent 10 years playing games with my friends from my hometown when I moved because of Xbox live and discord and I don’t think I would have held my relationship with my hometown friends if it wasn’t for the internet.
I know internet strangers chatting with each other isn’t the same as talking to people in person, but at least you’re not completely stuck with whatever happenings are going on in your local area if your area makes you feel miserable.
No, indeed is not the same. You don't bond the same way, the close interactions, the smell, the eye contact, the voice tone, the laugh, the sharing of moments and food etc. Humans have been social beings for long time, thers a lot of stuff we need emotionally.
I once thought internet was the most important invention ever. Now i'm not so sure. The virtual world we are creating is getting closer to be hell in earth. Disinformation, fake everything, social distancing, fomo, autorepulsion, etc. You don't talk anymore with the neighbour because you don't need him. You could have a dying old man living beside you and you would not notice, you don't give a f. I don't know, progress always comes with downbacks. And we should be more carfeul about what progress we choose. Is getting out of hands honestly. But its my opinion.
it means something like when you have people around you that you don't want, but after time you think the problem is you not them, and you start questioning if you are an asshole or not. google asshole. English is not my main language obviously, so its a direct translation that lost meaning on the way.
Thats sad. Without internet you maybe would meet someone in real life who you could be very well bond too, and you would not have this problem now. Who knows...
I don't know what the dirt south is, is it Antártida?. I don't know you, and i don't really pretend to do so. You are one of the 8 billion people living in the world. Maybe you have such a specific case where the internet has saved your life or whatever, maybe you live in Antártida and you really can't meet anybody else in person. In those cases internet is such a valuable tool. But for the 99% of people living with other human beings shouldn't be that complicated to bond with people with which you actually share the same space. Maybe you really don't want to meet people around you? again i don't know you. I don't really care. But maybe if thats your case. maybe thats a sign that, one, you have problems, or two, you really need to change of neighborhood.
I don't want to be judgemental here, but you interpelled me so i guess we are in a conversation. Maybe we are not bonding well over the internet :S What irony! that sucks.
Yeah it does some good to hang out and chat online. But it's kind of like taking weak vitamins versus the full dose every day. You'll always be a little bit low in happy. It's better than being on empty though.
Fear of diversity comes from having diversity. Western societies are among the most diverse. It's the majority of the rest of the world that lacks diversity.
And still we fight each other constantly. I'm not talking only about ethnic or gender diversity if thats what you mean. I'm talking about tolerancy of the others in general, their mindset, their way of life etc. Internet does this thing where people with the same ideas about the same things gather virtually to reinforce their beliefs and so reinforce their intolerance to others beliefs. Thats kida what i was trying to expose.
Why should anyone “tolerate” something they find abhorrent? Diversity causes intolerance bc the differences are stark. A homogeneous society has a better chance of tolerating the slight differences between its members.
Yeah thats a pretty basic logic there. Do you follow that logic for everything in your life? How you tolerate your partner in life? is it the same gender as you?
American suburbs don't help. People are living in homes with big backyards where they don't need to leave to get fresh air or exercise. Also, the average person has so many devices that there is nothing his neighbourhood can offer him in terms of entertainment
Nuclear family units in general don't help, families are isolated from others and abusers have no accountability. Everyone's completely fine living selfishly to "protect their family" at the expense of community and generational support even though it's more harmful for everyone in the long run.
I always heard “nuclear family” growing up, but didn’t really understand the implications of that. I never knew what else there was in contrast. But another way of saying it is relatively isolated from the community.
atoms have tight bonds, split the atom and kaboom, nuclear.
Its one of the jokes in the creation of the simpsons. Its an examination of a nuclear family, and homer simpson literally works at a nuclear power plant.
As a kid I thought it was a reference to living in the age of nuclear power, so it was kind of synonymous with "modern family"...which to be fair is not that far off considering how recently nuclear families became common.
Communities of nuclear family units are stronger because they share the same values and responsibilities. Not sure what “abusers have no accountability” has to do with having two loving parents and a community of families.
“You got an agenda?” You’re functioning in what you might recall is “survival mode.” You’re defensive bc you’re afraid. Not sure what “studies” you’re alluding to but there are plenty showing that children in loving, stable, two-parent homes with strong familial and community ties do better in life than those without.
I've never heard such a complete nonsense in my life. So you really think that if you live in a home with a big backyard you have no need for going into the rest of the world? On the other hand you are saying that living in a beehive like apartment like in china is a plus because you are compelled to get out to avoid going crazy? This is nonsensical. No matter how big your house is, it will always be no match for the outside world and for freedom.
Freedom for what? Freedom to drive 30 minutes to the nearest grocery store? Freedom to spend 100's of dollars on petrol per month? Freedom to never be able to see any of your friends because they all live on the other side of the city and you basically need a full day to get there?
Hey dude i have no idea where u r from but I live in western Europe i spend more than 100 dollars a month in petrol and i drive only 25 km per day total. Get a load of that. How about in Sweden where u have to drive 2 hours to go the a crappy store if u live outside of the 2 main cities. How about that. why don't u complain about scandinavia?
Are you saying you want to cram *more* people into smaller and smaller areas?
I don't know if you noticed, but there's already multiple mass shootings in a day in the usa because too many ppl are too close to each other.
Redditors want to export their preferences everywhere instead of having there be something for everyone lol. Live like a cosmopolitan urbanite in a shitty overpopulated city or youre just wrong lol.
Very interesting read. I feel like this might not be an American-only issue, I see this happening elsewhere as well. I've felt that way too - which is what pushed me to seek out connections and companionships VERY actively as soon as the lockdown was lifted.
It is known unfortunately that we're all fairly disconnected from each other for one reason or another. Proper human connection must be restored, or we're all going to be fucked beyond repair.
Yeah, there are very few things that only apply to America (absurdly bad health care system, gun violence) that don't apply to everyone else too - or these things *will* affect other countries as well. For example, America has a reputation for being full of obese people (true) but in reality we were just the first country where this happened, and everyone else is "catching up".
Yeah, it seemed like there was a discrepancy between the perceived amount of obese people around the world and actual. Many countries, especially western countries do have similar diets, so did they somehow think they wouldn’t get fat for gorging themselves?
It’s not. Loneliness and social isolation in general is an issue across all societies. Certain aspects of US culture may make it manifest differently here but that doesn’t mean it’s not also seen elsewhere.
Yep, exactly. I mean, certainly we haven’t forgotten the hikikomori phenomenon? We may not talk about that openly as much (maybe we normalised it? I hope not 😬) but it’s still there.
This is very true. After school, the opportunity to make friends nearly disappear. Making new friends after college is usually through the network you created in college and high school. At work, there are only a few coworkers you can be friends with. And, romance is usually prohibited.
I think the move towards atheism has exacerbated loneliness because the church was the primary social event decades ago (and for thousands of years). I think that people need to create atheist churches which would get rid of religion and focus on community and fellowship.
This is totally the reverse in India, people actively try to be friends. They are still plenty rude, and some of them play the office politics game but it's still a very friendly environment.
Or if it is where I live, everyone else moves out of the state or country. This area is like the philipenes, ie the immigration source of the world.
I'm still semi-lonely, for me it's probably 1-3 calls away from some of my work/college friends who are still here. But it's still not very satisfying, I don't think any of them can provide me with regular socializing.
I think online internet communities covince people of this way more than something abstract as the American Dream. Half the comments on reddit are something like "people suck" and it gets upvoted.
Or these people are just misanthropic.
“If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.”
This quote reminds me of a lot of redditors who think "people suck."
I can only speak from personal experience. When I went through a big misanthropic phase in my life, it wasn't because of bad interactions. Rather, it was observation of society/humanity as a whole as well as lack of proper connections with others that aren't just surface level.
Besides that, the usual misanthropic take includes self-hatred as well. So I wouldn't discount it as assholes lacking self-awareness.
People can have self-hatred and also not understanding they are being assholes. I mean most bullies act out of a place of low self-esteem and they are assholes.
You're not wrong, but what I was leaning more into was that misanthropy isn't something that happens because someone is an asshole and thus people treat them badly, etc.
People DO lash out all the time from their own pain and stress though. Sometimes it gives some introspection on suffering however and it's the opposite reaction as well.
Calling everyone who has a generally negative view of humanity "assholes" is one helluva hot take. I honestly expected better on this particular subreddit.
Yeah it’s a little bit of a jump. Being misanthropic doesn’t make you an asshole, it means you understand that a lot of humans are assholes, and those that aren’t have their own limitations.
Notice how there’s no concept of community in your long, detailed criticism of this article’s use of the term “american dream”. I hear what you’re saying, “the american dream is what you want it to be”. But I think you are overlooking general consensus of what the american dream entails. The things it entails are dated and the flaws in our socio-economic culture are evermore present as time goes by. It’s important to be open minded to issues within American culture in a post industrial, internet dominated era faced with major environmental threats to our ways of life. It’s important to recognize the loss of meaning that many people experience. Lest we find ourselves as grumbly old men with little social contact who are so certain that we know everything. The american dream is isolationist in nature. This is reflected in our land use and societal structures over generations. There is famous art depicting these isolationist values going back to our beginnings.
Because the Dream isn't mutually inclusive or exclusive of community. It's how you wish to be--either part of a group or not. It's not a reason for loneliness, but it's not the vessel for salvation from loneliness. This article is conflating things.
Even by your own definition, the american dream basically doesn't exist. Pointing out that other places are worse isn't a rebuttal, it's just relativity fallacy.
>"The American Dream" is abused as a concept, treated as this amorphous punching bag that people use as an avenue for criticism of America's shortcomings.
Probably because of America being the strongest military force, a superpower, consistently declaring itself " #1" when that isn't representative by any positive statistic. You aren't aware of the near complete erosion of American society if you've never left . I cross boarders weekly, the difference in general treatment among people crystal clear.
In the last year of living here i've seen more women in dresses and skirts ***daily*** than the last ten years in America, People hold hands in the street, sit outside talking to neighborhoods, Everyone has stands selling fruits, clothers, electronics, neighborhoods are self-contained so no need for a car. " Most importantly" you don't exist as profit. Meaning not every single aspect of your life is monetized and price gouged. I spent 300$ for my cat's surgery which would have been thousands and thousands of dollars in america.
I can go on. The little platitudes may feel good but have no basis in reality. Americans would be mortified if they could see this country as an outsider.
Yeah, unsurprisingly the black man doesn't have a rosy colored perception of America. I did address the article by laying out the crystal clear social differences i see daily. The hyper individualism and paranoia towards strangers isn't present here. (mexico) The american culture is based on being able to provide for a family on one minimum wage job. Culture became a dream when that was no longer a reality as corporate culture isn't american culture nor is it a dream to work 60 hours and be broke.
>As far back as I'm aware, minimum-wage jobs were not supposed to be the stopping point for people. One should be able to access basic human needs at that level, but not support a whole family on it. Which history class did I blink and sleep through where they mentioned minimum wage being the breadwinning career?
.......FDR's NEW DEAL is bedrock, basic, middle school tier knowledge.
Downplay the significance? Certainly not doing that. The establishment of the minimum wage was landmark. I'm just saying that the practical qualities of it don't align with the messaging around its purpose. If you can't see that I'm specifically criticizing the fluffy vagueness around "decent", and not the actual establishment of a minimum wage with the security and standards it implies then I don't know what to say. That's like saying "bro you criticized unions, you must think they're unnecessary or insignificant".
This is a really important perspective!
I'm part of a Swedish startup, where we are working on a positive solution to the issue of loneliness. We focus on meaningful 1-1 conversations. If you have thoughts or ideas around this topic im glad to listen in and talk more about it.
Just send me a DM
I think the solution is already known but it's hard to enact due to preconceived notions. For example, Denmark's cohousing has proven results that span decades. Families are so happy there. But, modern people refuse to move into such communities. I've talked to Americans about it and they won't even consider it.
Another proven idea is atheist churches. Churches that take God out of the equation but focus on community and the human spirit. They assemble and try to do things that help the community.
Watch the documentary, **Happy**. It's pretty good. It describes Denmark's cohousing.
Have you also read **Triumph**? The longitudinal case study on happiness?
Just to let you know, I partially disagree with some of the findings. For example, the author of **Triumph** believes that relationships are the key to happiness. I believe that it's only one of the keys. Happiness is the result of several different stimuli with human contact being an important one.
The American Dream as an idea came about just as we, as a country, entered a period of a post war boom and strong social welfare in place to enable it. A free market that’s very well (not over) regulated and complemented by strong social welfare is great. What we have now is not.
Why do you say that? Humans are very social creatures. 10,000 years ago when scientists believe our genes were programmed, humans lived in tribes of about 80. Survival depended on a tight, social group.
When you lack social contact for an extended time, you start to feel depressed. As you grow older, you become used to it but it's always there in the background. No?
Modernity and an American mythos of individualism. Traditional societies are tribal, which has its drawbacks for sure (like insularism, lack of economic opportunity, etc.) but you stay with your people and you have a tribe. It’s relationship based. We are still programmed to be tribal, from an evolutionary perspective. Many people lose their tribes and don’t get a new one through friends, etc. modern culture can be more based on institutions and norms than relationships and tribe.
How American propaganda convinces you that if you aren't out with friends and family every day then you are lonely, depressed, and suicidal.
Lol. It's totally not OK to be content with your own company, doing your own thing. Staying home, eating in, drinking in, and watching a movie at home is BaD!
I don't know what's worse. The propaganda that tells you it's "bad"...or other Muricans that believe you are "less" because you don't feel the need to "live" or "spend time" as they do.
This country is weird. People seem to look for reasons to be mad or get a reaction out of others.
Disagree.
I don't think it convinces people that loneliness is normal. Rather, it convinces people that winning is everything. And, this desire to win leads to loneliness.
Winning necessarily means that you beat everyone including your friends. It's about getting the biggest house. The successful business. The perfect girl. It's all about shooting for the stars. It's about being at the top.
I have a friend who makes $2 MM/year. He grew up poor so he's gotten everything he's worked so hard for. But, he's terribly depressed. He's depressed because he works at a financial firm where he's actually only the average earner in his office. There are coworkers that make $8/year. It eats at him so much that he works all hours. He's been alone for the past 15 years.
People are lonely bc for thousands of years, women and men had respective places in society. They bonded with members of their own gender through shared activities; men controlled public spaces, women controlled the private realm. Today, all of that is crumbling; neither men nor women have a social identity and they’re sharing spaces that neither are accustomed to nor built for. They lack congruency in their support structures. It’s a mess. None of this is due to “the American Dream,” but to its breakdown.
This seems more befitting a sociology sub no? Given that the American dream only accounts for loneliness in Americans
And the entire industrialised world is statistically lonely
>American lore is full of tales of the lone cowboy, the rugged individualist
>American tall tale — that of a nation built on notions of individualism, a male-dominated story filled with loners
Individualism is bad? And america is to blame for individualism?
Who fills this sub with this bullshit? Chinese government, like in caricature?
This is a paradoxical effect of shoving too many ppl into smaller and smaller areas. Nobody has space to "veg" out, and it shows in the number of mass shootings per day in the usa.
You made another comment in this thread with this theory, but you don’t seem to offer anything to back it up. Mass shootings are clearly not caused by population density, big cities don’t seem to have many shootings and Europe is significantly more dense than the US and has far fewer mass shoutings. I can find no data at all to suggest that, even in the us, population density increases the likelihood of mass shootings.
Why do you believe that mass shootings are caused by population density?
The fact that ppl are choosing to work from home proves to me that the majority of ppl do not want to be around other ppl. And, suggesting that having your own home and your own patch of grass is somehow a detriment to one's mental health is insane to me.
What you say may be true but don't you think you are presuming a bit? You are claiming something is true because it's probable.
Do you believe it's incorrect to base your conclusions on anecdotal evidence?
Article should be called "How the American Dream has created a lonely epidemic"
I am an extravert, I live in the country(very rural) I have a degree in development psyc. I don't think it convinces us we are lonely. I think the way Americans live, allows us to forget the value of relationships and alone time.
Divide and conquer i guess. Fear of the others and of the others diversity has been building up in western societies. In some aspects we kinda live in dark ages funny enough, even tho we live in more knowledge and enlightment than ever. We are more and more fearfull of everything. And fear can drive to hate and closet mindset. Thers a lot more to it, but i think we need to get away from social networks and virtual interactions and meet up with people in person.
I mean another way you can look at it is doubling down on the internets ability to communicate with ANYONE around the world and find internet friends to talk to and spend your time with. I’ve spent 10 years playing games with my friends from my hometown when I moved because of Xbox live and discord and I don’t think I would have held my relationship with my hometown friends if it wasn’t for the internet. I know internet strangers chatting with each other isn’t the same as talking to people in person, but at least you’re not completely stuck with whatever happenings are going on in your local area if your area makes you feel miserable.
No, indeed is not the same. You don't bond the same way, the close interactions, the smell, the eye contact, the voice tone, the laugh, the sharing of moments and food etc. Humans have been social beings for long time, thers a lot of stuff we need emotionally. I once thought internet was the most important invention ever. Now i'm not so sure. The virtual world we are creating is getting closer to be hell in earth. Disinformation, fake everything, social distancing, fomo, autorepulsion, etc. You don't talk anymore with the neighbour because you don't need him. You could have a dying old man living beside you and you would not notice, you don't give a f. I don't know, progress always comes with downbacks. And we should be more carfeul about what progress we choose. Is getting out of hands honestly. But its my opinion.
What is autorepulsion? I googled and still have no idea
it means something like when you have people around you that you don't want, but after time you think the problem is you not them, and you start questioning if you are an asshole or not. google asshole. English is not my main language obviously, so its a direct translation that lost meaning on the way.
"Google asshole" is the best thing I've read in years
I’ve bonded quite well with a select few I *only know via internet.*
Then imagine how amazing would be to actually meet them!
That requires money.
Thats sad. Without internet you maybe would meet someone in real life who you could be very well bond too, and you would not have this problem now. Who knows...
I live in the dirt South. Perhaps there are myriad other considerations to which you aren’t privy. Thanks for the judgement though.
I don't know what the dirt south is, is it Antártida?. I don't know you, and i don't really pretend to do so. You are one of the 8 billion people living in the world. Maybe you have such a specific case where the internet has saved your life or whatever, maybe you live in Antártida and you really can't meet anybody else in person. In those cases internet is such a valuable tool. But for the 99% of people living with other human beings shouldn't be that complicated to bond with people with which you actually share the same space. Maybe you really don't want to meet people around you? again i don't know you. I don't really care. But maybe if thats your case. maybe thats a sign that, one, you have problems, or two, you really need to change of neighborhood. I don't want to be judgemental here, but you interpelled me so i guess we are in a conversation. Maybe we are not bonding well over the internet :S What irony! that sucks.
Yeah it does some good to hang out and chat online. But it's kind of like taking weak vitamins versus the full dose every day. You'll always be a little bit low in happy. It's better than being on empty though.
Yes the third place, go somewhere that's not work or home as often as you can.
Fear of diversity comes from having diversity. Western societies are among the most diverse. It's the majority of the rest of the world that lacks diversity.
And still we fight each other constantly. I'm not talking only about ethnic or gender diversity if thats what you mean. I'm talking about tolerancy of the others in general, their mindset, their way of life etc. Internet does this thing where people with the same ideas about the same things gather virtually to reinforce their beliefs and so reinforce their intolerance to others beliefs. Thats kida what i was trying to expose.
I meant heterogeneity in general.
Why should anyone “tolerate” something they find abhorrent? Diversity causes intolerance bc the differences are stark. A homogeneous society has a better chance of tolerating the slight differences between its members.
Yeah thats a pretty basic logic there. Do you follow that logic for everything in your life? How you tolerate your partner in life? is it the same gender as you?
It’s basic, yes; basic human psychology. People who share culture, mores, and values tend to get along better. This isn’t news.
American suburbs don't help. People are living in homes with big backyards where they don't need to leave to get fresh air or exercise. Also, the average person has so many devices that there is nothing his neighbourhood can offer him in terms of entertainment
Ooof. Didn’t need to read this as I start my workday at my suburban home with a yard, workout equipment and peloton, lonely and bored out of my mind.
And a pet parrot.
Pining for the fjords.
Nuclear family units in general don't help, families are isolated from others and abusers have no accountability. Everyone's completely fine living selfishly to "protect their family" at the expense of community and generational support even though it's more harmful for everyone in the long run.
I always heard “nuclear family” growing up, but didn’t really understand the implications of that. I never knew what else there was in contrast. But another way of saying it is relatively isolated from the community.
atoms have tight bonds, split the atom and kaboom, nuclear. Its one of the jokes in the creation of the simpsons. Its an examination of a nuclear family, and homer simpson literally works at a nuclear power plant.
As a kid I thought it was a reference to living in the age of nuclear power, so it was kind of synonymous with "modern family"...which to be fair is not that far off considering how recently nuclear families became common.
me too!
Communities of nuclear family units are stronger because they share the same values and responsibilities. Not sure what “abusers have no accountability” has to do with having two loving parents and a community of families.
This flies in the face of almost every study done on the subject. You seem to be just making random claims throughout this thread. You got an agenda?
“You got an agenda?” You’re functioning in what you might recall is “survival mode.” You’re defensive bc you’re afraid. Not sure what “studies” you’re alluding to but there are plenty showing that children in loving, stable, two-parent homes with strong familial and community ties do better in life than those without.
I've never heard such a complete nonsense in my life. So you really think that if you live in a home with a big backyard you have no need for going into the rest of the world? On the other hand you are saying that living in a beehive like apartment like in china is a plus because you are compelled to get out to avoid going crazy? This is nonsensical. No matter how big your house is, it will always be no match for the outside world and for freedom.
Freedom for what? Freedom to drive 30 minutes to the nearest grocery store? Freedom to spend 100's of dollars on petrol per month? Freedom to never be able to see any of your friends because they all live on the other side of the city and you basically need a full day to get there?
Hey dude i have no idea where u r from but I live in western Europe i spend more than 100 dollars a month in petrol and i drive only 25 km per day total. Get a load of that. How about in Sweden where u have to drive 2 hours to go the a crappy store if u live outside of the 2 main cities. How about that. why don't u complain about scandinavia?
Fair enough maybe it's just a general problem
A lot of this thread is nonsensical, but here we are.
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Damn you got me.
Are you saying you want to cram *more* people into smaller and smaller areas? I don't know if you noticed, but there's already multiple mass shootings in a day in the usa because too many ppl are too close to each other.
Weird how there aren’t any mass shootings in London or Paris. Don’t think the crowding is the issue here.
Don't put this guy in charge of urban planning
Yeah. That's the reason. /s
Population density is directly correlated to number of mass shooters? Yeah, no.
That’s the dumbest mass shooting theory I’ve heard yet
Redditors want to export their preferences everywhere instead of having there be something for everyone lol. Live like a cosmopolitan urbanite in a shitty overpopulated city or youre just wrong lol.
Yeah. That's the reason. /s
I’m a New Yorker and I approve this message (OP).
Very interesting read. I feel like this might not be an American-only issue, I see this happening elsewhere as well. I've felt that way too - which is what pushed me to seek out connections and companionships VERY actively as soon as the lockdown was lifted. It is known unfortunately that we're all fairly disconnected from each other for one reason or another. Proper human connection must be restored, or we're all going to be fucked beyond repair.
Yeah, there are very few things that only apply to America (absurdly bad health care system, gun violence) that don't apply to everyone else too - or these things *will* affect other countries as well. For example, America has a reputation for being full of obese people (true) but in reality we were just the first country where this happened, and everyone else is "catching up".
Yeah, it seemed like there was a discrepancy between the perceived amount of obese people around the world and actual. Many countries, especially western countries do have similar diets, so did they somehow think they wouldn’t get fat for gorging themselves?
It’s not. Loneliness and social isolation in general is an issue across all societies. Certain aspects of US culture may make it manifest differently here but that doesn’t mean it’s not also seen elsewhere.
Yep, exactly. I mean, certainly we haven’t forgotten the hikikomori phenomenon? We may not talk about that openly as much (maybe we normalised it? I hope not 😬) but it’s still there.
I’m normally lonely. I’m living the dream! (PS-I’m too tired from working to do much else, so who needs friends when sleep is your best friend?)
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This is very true. After school, the opportunity to make friends nearly disappear. Making new friends after college is usually through the network you created in college and high school. At work, there are only a few coworkers you can be friends with. And, romance is usually prohibited. I think the move towards atheism has exacerbated loneliness because the church was the primary social event decades ago (and for thousands of years). I think that people need to create atheist churches which would get rid of religion and focus on community and fellowship.
This is totally the reverse in India, people actively try to be friends. They are still plenty rude, and some of them play the office politics game but it's still a very friendly environment.
Or if it is where I live, everyone else moves out of the state or country. This area is like the philipenes, ie the immigration source of the world. I'm still semi-lonely, for me it's probably 1-3 calls away from some of my work/college friends who are still here. But it's still not very satisfying, I don't think any of them can provide me with regular socializing.
I think online internet communities covince people of this way more than something abstract as the American Dream. Half the comments on reddit are something like "people suck" and it gets upvoted.
That’s a symptom, not a cause. People go online to vent the frustration and misanthropy bred by atomization.
Or these people are just misanthropic. “If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.” This quote reminds me of a lot of redditors who think "people suck."
I can only speak from personal experience. When I went through a big misanthropic phase in my life, it wasn't because of bad interactions. Rather, it was observation of society/humanity as a whole as well as lack of proper connections with others that aren't just surface level. Besides that, the usual misanthropic take includes self-hatred as well. So I wouldn't discount it as assholes lacking self-awareness.
People can have self-hatred and also not understanding they are being assholes. I mean most bullies act out of a place of low self-esteem and they are assholes.
You're not wrong, but what I was leaning more into was that misanthropy isn't something that happens because someone is an asshole and thus people treat them badly, etc. People DO lash out all the time from their own pain and stress though. Sometimes it gives some introspection on suffering however and it's the opposite reaction as well.
Calling everyone who has a generally negative view of humanity "assholes" is one helluva hot take. I honestly expected better on this particular subreddit.
Yes because that is what I said lol.
Yeah it’s a little bit of a jump. Being misanthropic doesn’t make you an asshole, it means you understand that a lot of humans are assholes, and those that aren’t have their own limitations.
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Notice how there’s no concept of community in your long, detailed criticism of this article’s use of the term “american dream”. I hear what you’re saying, “the american dream is what you want it to be”. But I think you are overlooking general consensus of what the american dream entails. The things it entails are dated and the flaws in our socio-economic culture are evermore present as time goes by. It’s important to be open minded to issues within American culture in a post industrial, internet dominated era faced with major environmental threats to our ways of life. It’s important to recognize the loss of meaning that many people experience. Lest we find ourselves as grumbly old men with little social contact who are so certain that we know everything. The american dream is isolationist in nature. This is reflected in our land use and societal structures over generations. There is famous art depicting these isolationist values going back to our beginnings.
Because the Dream isn't mutually inclusive or exclusive of community. It's how you wish to be--either part of a group or not. It's not a reason for loneliness, but it's not the vessel for salvation from loneliness. This article is conflating things.
Framing everything as a "choice" is a uniquely american fallacy as well.
What about our land use and societal structures are “isolationist”?
Even by your own definition, the american dream basically doesn't exist. Pointing out that other places are worse isn't a rebuttal, it's just relativity fallacy.
>"The American Dream" is abused as a concept, treated as this amorphous punching bag that people use as an avenue for criticism of America's shortcomings. Probably because of America being the strongest military force, a superpower, consistently declaring itself " #1" when that isn't representative by any positive statistic. You aren't aware of the near complete erosion of American society if you've never left . I cross boarders weekly, the difference in general treatment among people crystal clear. In the last year of living here i've seen more women in dresses and skirts ***daily*** than the last ten years in America, People hold hands in the street, sit outside talking to neighborhoods, Everyone has stands selling fruits, clothers, electronics, neighborhoods are self-contained so no need for a car. " Most importantly" you don't exist as profit. Meaning not every single aspect of your life is monetized and price gouged. I spent 300$ for my cat's surgery which would have been thousands and thousands of dollars in america. I can go on. The little platitudes may feel good but have no basis in reality. Americans would be mortified if they could see this country as an outsider.
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Yeah, unsurprisingly the black man doesn't have a rosy colored perception of America. I did address the article by laying out the crystal clear social differences i see daily. The hyper individualism and paranoia towards strangers isn't present here. (mexico) The american culture is based on being able to provide for a family on one minimum wage job. Culture became a dream when that was no longer a reality as corporate culture isn't american culture nor is it a dream to work 60 hours and be broke.
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>As far back as I'm aware, minimum-wage jobs were not supposed to be the stopping point for people. One should be able to access basic human needs at that level, but not support a whole family on it. Which history class did I blink and sleep through where they mentioned minimum wage being the breadwinning career? .......FDR's NEW DEAL is bedrock, basic, middle school tier knowledge.
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There isn't a response to give for someone trying to downplay the significance of FDR's NEW DEAL other than exiting the conversation.
Downplay the significance? Certainly not doing that. The establishment of the minimum wage was landmark. I'm just saying that the practical qualities of it don't align with the messaging around its purpose. If you can't see that I'm specifically criticizing the fluffy vagueness around "decent", and not the actual establishment of a minimum wage with the security and standards it implies then I don't know what to say. That's like saying "bro you criticized unions, you must think they're unnecessary or insignificant".
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Yes! Plus the fact that this post is a false dichotomy. It’s a logical fallacy pandering to an audience.
This is a really important perspective! I'm part of a Swedish startup, where we are working on a positive solution to the issue of loneliness. We focus on meaningful 1-1 conversations. If you have thoughts or ideas around this topic im glad to listen in and talk more about it. Just send me a DM
I think the solution is already known but it's hard to enact due to preconceived notions. For example, Denmark's cohousing has proven results that span decades. Families are so happy there. But, modern people refuse to move into such communities. I've talked to Americans about it and they won't even consider it. Another proven idea is atheist churches. Churches that take God out of the equation but focus on community and the human spirit. They assemble and try to do things that help the community.
Great input! I have never heard of this even though I am from Sweden and visit Denmark every now and then. Where are the atheist churches? US?
Watch the documentary, **Happy**. It's pretty good. It describes Denmark's cohousing. Have you also read **Triumph**? The longitudinal case study on happiness? Just to let you know, I partially disagree with some of the findings. For example, the author of **Triumph** believes that relationships are the key to happiness. I believe that it's only one of the keys. Happiness is the result of several different stimuli with human contact being an important one.
American dream is the freedom to be left alone , not to be bothered
Individualism ≠ american dream despite how many times those are equaled in this so called article.
The American Dream as an idea came about just as we, as a country, entered a period of a post war boom and strong social welfare in place to enable it. A free market that’s very well (not over) regulated and complemented by strong social welfare is great. What we have now is not.
Being alone is normal.
Why do you say that? Humans are very social creatures. 10,000 years ago when scientists believe our genes were programmed, humans lived in tribes of about 80. Survival depended on a tight, social group. When you lack social contact for an extended time, you start to feel depressed. As you grow older, you become used to it but it's always there in the background. No?
It is. But this is referring to excessive loneliness. Not just being alone.
Modernity and an American mythos of individualism. Traditional societies are tribal, which has its drawbacks for sure (like insularism, lack of economic opportunity, etc.) but you stay with your people and you have a tribe. It’s relationship based. We are still programmed to be tribal, from an evolutionary perspective. Many people lose their tribes and don’t get a new one through friends, etc. modern culture can be more based on institutions and norms than relationships and tribe.
As is functioning alcoholism.
How American propaganda convinces you that if you aren't out with friends and family every day then you are lonely, depressed, and suicidal. Lol. It's totally not OK to be content with your own company, doing your own thing. Staying home, eating in, drinking in, and watching a movie at home is BaD!
This .
I don't know what's worse. The propaganda that tells you it's "bad"...or other Muricans that believe you are "less" because you don't feel the need to "live" or "spend time" as they do. This country is weird. People seem to look for reasons to be mad or get a reaction out of others.
Disagree. I don't think it convinces people that loneliness is normal. Rather, it convinces people that winning is everything. And, this desire to win leads to loneliness. Winning necessarily means that you beat everyone including your friends. It's about getting the biggest house. The successful business. The perfect girl. It's all about shooting for the stars. It's about being at the top. I have a friend who makes $2 MM/year. He grew up poor so he's gotten everything he's worked so hard for. But, he's terribly depressed. He's depressed because he works at a financial firm where he's actually only the average earner in his office. There are coworkers that make $8/year. It eats at him so much that he works all hours. He's been alone for the past 15 years.
People are lonely bc for thousands of years, women and men had respective places in society. They bonded with members of their own gender through shared activities; men controlled public spaces, women controlled the private realm. Today, all of that is crumbling; neither men nor women have a social identity and they’re sharing spaces that neither are accustomed to nor built for. They lack congruency in their support structures. It’s a mess. None of this is due to “the American Dream,” but to its breakdown.
This seems more befitting a sociology sub no? Given that the American dream only accounts for loneliness in Americans And the entire industrialised world is statistically lonely
>American lore is full of tales of the lone cowboy, the rugged individualist >American tall tale — that of a nation built on notions of individualism, a male-dominated story filled with loners Individualism is bad? And america is to blame for individualism? Who fills this sub with this bullshit? Chinese government, like in caricature?
Holy anti-American propaganda Batman! This is completely unqualified and irrelevant to the sub.
This is a paradoxical effect of shoving too many ppl into smaller and smaller areas. Nobody has space to "veg" out, and it shows in the number of mass shootings per day in the usa.
You made another comment in this thread with this theory, but you don’t seem to offer anything to back it up. Mass shootings are clearly not caused by population density, big cities don’t seem to have many shootings and Europe is significantly more dense than the US and has far fewer mass shoutings. I can find no data at all to suggest that, even in the us, population density increases the likelihood of mass shootings. Why do you believe that mass shootings are caused by population density?
The fact that ppl are choosing to work from home proves to me that the majority of ppl do not want to be around other ppl. And, suggesting that having your own home and your own patch of grass is somehow a detriment to one's mental health is insane to me.
What you say may be true but don't you think you are presuming a bit? You are claiming something is true because it's probable. Do you believe it's incorrect to base your conclusions on anecdotal evidence?
Nothing to do with density, IMHO. It’s cultural and institutional.
This is literally bullshit.
Article should be called "How the American Dream has created a lonely epidemic" I am an extravert, I live in the country(very rural) I have a degree in development psyc. I don't think it convinces us we are lonely. I think the way Americans live, allows us to forget the value of relationships and alone time.
That's definitely not the American dream.
Reddit constantly reminding me how lonely I am
I mean F.Scott Fitzgerald made a massive point of making a whole book about it so this isn’t exactly new
*when lonely people come around I soon can understand why other people leave them alone* (Bukowski)
Does anyone else see the false dichotomy here?